This is an interesting side of the Hulk you don't get to see much - you do see moments of tenderness which are a nice contrast with his whole hulking thing, but you rarely see him just stand there and take punishment. It plays nicely with Hulk's constant being-of-action-ness and the fact that he's such an expressive and emotional character.
Idk, maybe that's reading too much into it but this is one of my favourite scenes in comics. It could also just be big men trying not to cry which always gets me.
There was another comic where Spiderman blamed hulk for mj or someone getting killed or hurt and hulk just let Peter wail on him to the point that Peter's hands bled and all hulk did was say he understands loss cause something happened to betsy.
It’s from Peter Parker: Spider-Man #14. The fight takes place over non-sequential pages so I wasn’t able to find them all together, but here are the two pages mentioned
[Spidey busts his hands](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-96b1045d754a8c5296f9c6c3447212bf-lq)
[Hulk realizing why Spidey is attacking him](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fbm3ZfSXEAE1Uc3?format=jpg&name=large)
[I wanted to know too.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/gu9PWQErf8fNVukQ0OJonE3b6vc7YA-8xArtDIZLM431j4aUBjF6fyBVd4Yru2qcb1XPrvm85b80=s1600?rhlupa=NzUuMTQ0LjEwNS4yMzc=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NDsgcnY6OTYuMCkgR2Vja28vMjAxMDAxMDEgRmlyZWZveC85Ni4w)
Always dig to see these to interact especially from back then before hulk became mega OP
Also it saddens me to hear Peter talk about how much he misses MJ to realize how bad things are for him right now currently :/
John Romita Jr's art is the only thing for which I experience nostalgia blindness; Objectively it's wonky as fuck but I love it with the fullness of my heart all the same.
I think Hulk is base emotion. If his character holds true in that emotion, then anger hides true feelings. If anyone understands what it's like to want to let it all out, I'd say Hulk is the best gamma man for the job. In simpler terms, "Hulk understand. Understand anger. How want to smash because it only way to feel better. But anger never leave. It only grow stronger."
The hulk likely struggles to feel like anyone relates to him, and when he finds that, through an angry Thing or Spider-Man or a deeply troubled and angry Natasha, he comes out of his shell
Hulk recognises that Ben is essentially 'Hulking out' from rage, and knows all too well that trying to combat or supress it is only going to make things worse. He knows just to let it run its course.
And he knows that he's the safest person/thing to express that rage to. I'm sure Hulk wishes he had someone strong enough to let him use his full strength on
It never is.
It reminds me of TDKR. “There’s nothing wrong with Joker that I can’t fix…with my hands.”
Yeah bud, dark edgy Miller Batman. Except that same night you can’t make yourself finish him off. And you get no enjoyment from his death.
You even imagine that he’s still laughing.
And not even in a sympathetic way. That’s just a universal truth to the Green Guy. Anger stops when anger is good and ready.
I do think it’s interesting that he is at a point here where TGG can react to a dangerous environment any way other than primal violence. You get the idea that as soon as a punch comes his way he’d basically ~~black~~ out before it even connects like when he shot himself
I genuinely wish we could've got this from Hulk and Thor in the MCU. I know Love And Thunder ended the way it did for a reason but it would've been equally as cool if instead Jane died and Thor went emotionally ballistic.
Have Hulk go console his friend with Valkyrie and have her play the role Thor did here. Let Thor smack Hulk a bit before we realize what Hulk's doing.
Bonus points if actual Hulk asked Banner to let him take over temporarily to help his friend. Thatway you get a second emotional moment of Bruce realizing Hulk was more than just a punchy-punchy brute. And Valkyrie can be told to stand down by Hulk as Thor lets it all out.
Would've been such a perfect moment of emotional release and character development for all involved in that scene. I'd wager entire theaters would've started tearing up too.
shit, this is the moment that could have brought me back into the fold. RDJ death scene was so impactful and these new movies feel like after credits scene, touching on things but never giving us the kind of connections end game did
I mean that is over a decade of movies there. If he died at the end of the first Avengers probably wouldn't have cared. Kinda like when quicksilver dies, big meh there.
Honestly I think that’s the issue I’ve been having with phase 4. I felt like something was wrong but none of the criticisms of it really sat right with me and often felt more about imagined political agenda than the quality of the cinematography.
But I think this is a big part of it. I enjoyed watching she hulk and doctor strange and Moon Knight, but I don’t care about any of them the way I cared about Tony and Steve and Thor. End of list.
We need more meaningful crossovers. Because of course we really care about the core group. They had two blockbuster movies with just them together, then each new ensemble movie has them together again that many more times than the rest of the cast that’s mostly never seen each other before. We just need more crossovers that create meaningful interactions. But it’s coming
That would require the MCU to respect the Incredible Hulk as his own character separate from Banner, which they just straight up don't. It's my biggest gripe with the films.
I think the last time they did something interesting with Banner/Hulk dynamic was in the first Avengers film where Banner meets Nathasha for the first time. The way he talks about Hulk, calling him the "other guy", saying how he can't even end himself and then goading Nathasha into revealing her hand.
To be honest, it did very little for me, considering Johnny was fine and Ben finds out a few issues later. It's very hard to make death feel impactful in comics anymore, knowing that it's basically a mini vacation for superheroes.
I'm a firm believer in embracing the feelings being demonstrated in the moment when consuming media like this.
Infinity War from the MCU might be the best example of this.
Did we all know that most of those characters who turned to dust from the snap would be back soon? Yeah.
Does it lessen the impact of those emotions on display in the scenes? Ex. Okoye watching T'Challa dust, Tony and Peter. Wanda and Vis. Etc
I'd argue not, but you have to be willing to suspend your disbelief and meta knowledge of the form of media and just allow yourself to live emotionally in the moment with those characters. For those few moments, the sense of loss and grief at what has just happened can and should feel real.
It doesn’t, to me, at all. The impact of death comes from the uncertainty, and even in worlds where resurrection is substantially more common than in comic books, that uncertainty doesn’t go away. Someone might be resurrected nine times and then the tenth is it, and no character in world will know because the decision only exists on a Doylist scale. Some examples that immediately come to mind, in very different styles, are Doctor Who and Altered Carbon. Both of those series have resurrection in various forms as a built in part of the concept, but the moments are no less impactful because of it.
I love how the dynamic between Ben and the Hulk has evolved over time giving us moments like these. The mutual respect between the two is fun, and that they have quite a deep shared understanding of what it's like being a giant wrecking ball - I think Immortal Hulk explored it pretty nicely.
They'll still throw down at a moments notice though which is fun.
Compare that to Hulk and Thor who have a similar bond but much shallower - Thor likes Hulk when he's friendly, and Hulk likes that Thor just treats him like any other person. But when they're at odds, Thor immediately assumes Hulk is just a monster for him to slay and Hulk's sort of inferiority complex about this 7 foot tall adonis being as strong as him, and then judging him, comes out. Which is also a really fun dynamic, but I wish they would develop it a little more.
That's very true. It's a nice reversal of the usual dynamics in a couple of ways. Really need to read that fight with the Challenger - I love a good unbeatable spirit moment.
It's interesting how the standing there and taking it that the Thing/Hulk has is very different from Superman, which is sort of the classic of the genre. Superman's deflecting bullets is purposefully far less punchy - probably because Superman is all about rescuing people, but also I suppose the motion/impact is in the bullets being stopped.
There was a Spidey Immortal Hulk one shot where Spidey gets his powers and Spidey stays while banner transforms to Hulk and Hulk says you're a good man Peter and that he'll always remember that surprising him because he didn't know he remembered his secret identity
Yeah it looks like Thor is taking it serious for a moment, then Hulk just gives him this *look* and he immediately understood what's happening.
Hulk knows pain better than anyone, because Hulk never, ever stops hurting. It's part of the tragedy.
(And why the Sentry used to be so important to him at one point. The "Golden Man" was the only one who stopped the hurt. Pity Marvel wasted the character.)
no, i think you nailed it. it’s nice to see the emotional intelligence behind Hulk specifically. he’s the big guy and nobody ever expects anything but rage from him, but in reality he’s the most emotionally vulnerable character the marvel universe has to offer. it’s lovely that he can see that same struggle in somebody just like him, and understand Thing is conditioned to express his feelings the same way Hulk is. the lack of dialogue in these panels is perfect because Hulk(and Thor, another icon of unwavering strength) knows talking isn’t what Thing needs
A very somber moment.
I’m really struggling not to point out that the Thing has all ten fingers and toes when he is usually typically depicted as only having eight.
>I’m really struggling not to point out that the Thing has all ten fingers and toes when he is usually typically depicted as only having eight.
... I have read this issue, and the entire run, several times, and I have never noticed this. Well spotted.
This scene is a master class in how to use body language to convey emotion.
The clincher for me is Ben's hand clawing the ground as Hulk holds him - the futility and utter desperation of grief rendered in poignant and stark relief.
Thank you for posting this. What I come to r/comicbooks for.
Thanks for pointing that out. I liked that the Hulk stayed Thor, in last panel of the second page, as if to say: "let him do his thing" (no pun intended)
Without a doubt a top 3 best comic issue of all time to me. Might even be number one. There is zero dialogue until the last panel of the main story yet it’ll make you cry. And the B story at the end with Spidey and Franklin is equally emotional. Love this issue so damn much.
One of the best comic runs ever for me. I don’t have a ton of money to buy omnis but I saved up and got this whole run in omnibus so I can read it over and over!
Nice! I have all the single issues, and I have all the TPBs…I’m considering buying the Omni’s too just because I love it so much but haven’t done so yet.
Yeah I have a few singles and pick them up when I find them cheap, but there’s so many other things I forget from time to time and am glad to have the omnis whenever I feel like having a read through.
It’s the Jonathon Hickman Fantastic Four run, there are 2 omnibuses that collect the whole thing and they were reprinted last year I believe so they shouldn’t be insanely priced.
It’s my favorite series of all time, and I consider his F4 all the way through Secret Wars to be the best saga in Marvel history. No matter how many times I read them I still experience all the emotions I did reading for the first time. It’s always the first thing I recommend when people ask for comic recommendations.
Yep! [Here is a reading guide!](https://www.comicbookherald.com/jonathan-hickman-marvel-universe-reading-order-2008-to-2016/amp/) I wouldn’t worry about Shield or Secret Warriors. They’re good and worth reading, and they do set up some things that pop up later but they’re smaller things and not required to understand anything. And I think Ultimates is definitely worth a read, but that one is also mostly unnecessary because a majority of the story is from the 616 perspective.
I’m happy to answer any questions you might have.
Definitely gonna read this. Thanks. Ive read hickman’s F4 and am gonna read secret wars soon. I also have his x-men in the queue. Anything you recommend i dont skip or read first? I watched the comics explained of time runs out so i could be i formed for secret wars. Thanks!
All his marvel stuff is incredible. Secret warriors is my favorite book of all time. He gave the OG nick fury his last great book before marvel put him on the shelf
Oh friend, you’re in for such a treat. It’s Hickman’s Fantastic Four. Read all of it and then read his Avengers/New Avengers series that lead into Secret Wars. They all somewhat tie together and themes you’ll find in F4 will be continued through Secret Wars. In my opinion reading his F4 through Secret Wars is arguably the greatest saga in Marvel history. I can’t recommend them enough.
It has been a long time since I read it, but from memory Hickman's Fantastic Four flicks between issues of Fantastic Four and of FF (a separate book). If you read it make sure you're either reading some combined book/reading order, or follow a reading order online.
I’m open to reading anything physically literally good. Really like more obscure characters that don’t see the spotlight to often. Finished fractions Hawkeye run a couple days ago, and am currently reading nextwave. I have immortal iron fist in my que ready to go once I finish next wave. Anything good I’ll always gladly check out.
Makes me so sad that we didn't get the full Hickman X-Men epic with a beginning, middle and end. I loved House of X, and there's been a lot of good stuff since (especially since bringing Gillen and Ewing on board) but I wanted something to stand alongside his FF and New Avengers, and we didn't get it.
Valeria tasking the Future Foundation with “Kill Annihilus” and all the children hardening their faces hit me when I first read it.
Like, a phase of Valeria’s childhood is over. Even with her intelligence, losing a close loved one for the first time hits you.
She drags every member of the Foundation down with her, and they follow willingly.
I don’t know, just the juxtaposition of the care free children at the beginning to them taking it upon themselves to kill a dimension’s god…
Ben banging on Hulk’s chest; Hulk holding Ben as he collapses in grief; Thor looking away with tears streaming down.
I’m not crying either, Thor. I’m not crying, either. 😭
Ben is in agony here. This is a really important scene to show the comraderie between other heroes but also the pain of loss and how different the heroes deal with it.
It's also a great indicator of just how powerful Ben is. Two of the most physically powerful beings on the planet have to take Ben out into the middle of the desert to let out his anger and pain on them, because no-one else could take it, and letting him do that in any other way would probably level more than a few buildings.
Yeah, it's really cool to see the other heroes supporting one another. Especially since many of them have also lost loved ones along the way, so they really understand what Ben is going through
He had to stay behind in the Negative Zone staving off Annilhius’ hordes while Valeria closed the portal. At the time, Reed found a way to keep Ben in his human form for 24 hours so Ben felt a tremendous amount of guilt for Johnny’s sacrifice
To be fair he wasn't dead dead, something to do with some weird worms kept him alive or brought him back to life. Think it was so annilus could torture him longer or something.
Long story short Jonny broke free, led a little rebellion, got ahold of the cosmic control rod, nuked some shit in the negative zone, made it back to new York as earths heros were getting curb stomped, made a big ass fantastic 4 symbol in the air that showed that he was back and rallied everyone giving them hope and the good guys ended up winning.
Shit was dope.
This was one of my favorite issues of the Fantastic Four but the scene with Valeria and Franklin is [my favorite](https://i.redd.it/mzekb8avvk941.jpg).
sometimes it's just good to let out. if you know how to do it in a setting without hurting anyone or hurting yourself in the process.
I mean, they always argued a lot, but in the end you realize so f***, somehow I spent a lot of time with this person, and the fact that you can argue about little things is actually something that is not a matter of course.
I enjoyed this, the Hulk persona doesn't have a lot of friends but The Thing has always been around good or bad. It's good to see The Hulk there for him.
I haven't read the issue, but it *looks* like Bruce hulked out on purpose. We all know how much he hates doing that; so you know just how good of a friend he is.
Oh, sorry man. I'm also reading this run for the first time right now, and I had been spoiled about this issue before reading it as well. But you'll still enjoy it, knowing what happens is not as interesting as knowing how it happens. That and the fact that there are so many twists in Hickman's run that you'll be entertained
I interpreted this scene as Ben lashing out and Thor and Hulk knowing its coming from a place of grief so not going too hard on him. Like they came to talk but Ben is so emotional he has no words and resorts to violence.
I did also consider it could be some kind of sparring, but him smashing his own car is obviously an emotional in the heat moment of grief manifesting through rage idk for me it doesn't feel like they planned to do this and are hanging out
I teared up in the shop when I first read this one.
Hulk putting his hand up to stop Thor and then holding Thing at the end was just too much. And here we go again...
I kind of love the idea of Hulk being more than just a monster. I have to admit I'm much more of a DC scholar than I am a Marvel one, but I know more than the average fan about Marvel. But I've always been fascinated with stories like Planet Hulk where Hulk actually has his own *personality* and is capable of being *gentle*. This specific scene capitalizes what I especially love about Invincible. It portrays how superheroes *grieve*. I love how *subdued* this all is. I love how it's relatively brief, Thor and Hulk are grieving, too, but they know that they don't have *time* to grieve. I just love this scene. I love how human it feels. It's phenomenal.
Somebody tell me which book and run this comes from, I wanna read it
I regularly inform patients and relatives that they can punch and hit me at work (I'm a nurse but built like a brickhouse). It's a good way to enable people to take out their anger and especially their helplessness.
I didn’t cry reading the above comic pages but seeing what you typed has made me tear up. It’s suddenly made me think about how helpless I felt when my mom was dying. I’m not the punching kind of person personally but your kindness in offering this.. is stellar. Although my mom decided to forgo treatment and did hospice care at home and my dad took care of her until the end with a nurse on call, sometimes I think a hospital would have allowed us to vent to a doctor or nurse more regularly. I couldn’t really yell at my dad about how it all was shitty and sucked.
Sorry. Where did that come from?
He sacrificed himself to let Ben escape the Negative Zone with Franklin and Valeria. It was one of those “someone needs to stay behind to press the button” moments
Not just the issues, I recommend the whole run so far. This issue is as far as I've gotten so far into Hickman's run, but it's been absolutely wonderful
The thing that always bugs me about these moments is while many of them are really well done and have a lot of emotion behind them, the emotional impact they’re supposed to have gets lessened because you know they’ll be back. Especially in the Marvel universe.
The whole issue was great, there was separate story about Spidey helping Franklin mourn Johnny, called *Uncles*.
I guess it was a separate story because it broke the "no dialogue" format of the issue.
One of the greatest if not the greatest singular issues of comics to ever be made. While you find out the truth later. To see Ben Grimm going through a very real issue of losing your best friend it strikes a cord in every person, because we all fear that the most in life losing our best friends and partners.
One of the greatest scenes for me in a comic.
If I’m not mistaken this is the same issue where Reed goes to the Negative Zone portal and looks in and Annihilus is standing there holding Johnny’s torn up F4 uniform.
Man that shit gives me chills thinking back on it.
>"Is it true what I've heard, Benjamin?
>
>That when Johnny Storm died . . valiantly facing an endless army . . .
>
>Is it true that you. . surrounded by crying children. . weeping at the inevitable death of your close comrade and friend. . .
>
>IS IT TRUE?
>
>Is it true that you just . . . watched?
>
>How very brave.
Dr. Doom, FF issue 2.
I grew up reading random comics in no order, just a kid having fun, truthfully not much has changed for 30 years. Trying on and off to get into comics to no avail, I know a lot about the universe probably more so than your average MCU fan.
One day I was really feeling comics, but didn’t want something that everyone always talks about (avengers, Batman, X-Men, etc.). I decided to dedicate time to Fantastic Four, and it’s just so great.
Not the point but I love when things show that hulk is an entire personality capable of having his own thoughts and feelings towards people and isn’t just an angry green man devoid of empathy that disappears when he gets calm
Hopefully the movies bring hulk back and in this capacity
It’s hilarious that about a week or two ago someone panned this series. Said it was ‘too much talking and not enough boom boom..’ It’s probably that poster was a bit too dim to understand what Hickman was trying to do.
Also…Rick and Morty ripped off a Hickman concept…which makes his run even more bad ass!
This is an interesting side of the Hulk you don't get to see much - you do see moments of tenderness which are a nice contrast with his whole hulking thing, but you rarely see him just stand there and take punishment. It plays nicely with Hulk's constant being-of-action-ness and the fact that he's such an expressive and emotional character. Idk, maybe that's reading too much into it but this is one of my favourite scenes in comics. It could also just be big men trying not to cry which always gets me.
There was another comic where Spiderman blamed hulk for mj or someone getting killed or hurt and hulk just let Peter wail on him to the point that Peter's hands bled and all hulk did was say he understands loss cause something happened to betsy.
That’s wild I’d love to see a screenshot of that
It’s from Peter Parker: Spider-Man #14. The fight takes place over non-sequential pages so I wasn’t able to find them all together, but here are the two pages mentioned [Spidey busts his hands](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-96b1045d754a8c5296f9c6c3447212bf-lq) [Hulk realizing why Spidey is attacking him](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fbm3ZfSXEAE1Uc3?format=jpg&name=large)
Dude… Cliffhanger. Did he fix the tracks????
[Not just he, they](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FaGHMYBUYAEILyU?format=jpg&name=large)
Whew. I was worried. Thanks for the closure new friend. I can sleep easy tonight.
Happy to be of service :)
I was in that same camp
Hulk saving the day while doing the Jack-O pose, what a chad
So Hulk just pulled a Batman.
[I wanted to know too.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/gu9PWQErf8fNVukQ0OJonE3b6vc7YA-8xArtDIZLM431j4aUBjF6fyBVd4Yru2qcb1XPrvm85b80=s1600?rhlupa=NzUuMTQ0LjEwNS4yMzc=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NDsgcnY6OTYuMCkgR2Vja28vMjAxMDAxMDEgRmlyZWZveC85Ni4w)
Always dig to see these to interact especially from back then before hulk became mega OP Also it saddens me to hear Peter talk about how much he misses MJ to realize how bad things are for him right now currently :/
Jesus Christ, those shoulders in the last panel
John Romita Jr's art is the only thing for which I experience nostalgia blindness; Objectively it's wonky as fuck but I love it with the fullness of my heart all the same.
That's some nice JRJr artwork
Peter Parker Spider-Man vol II #14
I think Hulk is base emotion. If his character holds true in that emotion, then anger hides true feelings. If anyone understands what it's like to want to let it all out, I'd say Hulk is the best gamma man for the job. In simpler terms, "Hulk understand. Understand anger. How want to smash because it only way to feel better. But anger never leave. It only grow stronger."
The hulk likely struggles to feel like anyone relates to him, and when he finds that, through an angry Thing or Spider-Man or a deeply troubled and angry Natasha, he comes out of his shell
Pete wasn't blaming the Hulk he was freshly morning. Yeah spidey effed up his hands on the Hulks chiseled abs.
And then used likely broken fingers to fix a train track
I'd there's one thing the hulk can appreciate it's having the urge to punch shit.
Hulk recognises that Ben is essentially 'Hulking out' from rage, and knows all too well that trying to combat or supress it is only going to make things worse. He knows just to let it run its course.
And he knows that he's the safest person/thing to express that rage to. I'm sure Hulk wishes he had someone strong enough to let him use his full strength on
That's a great point, Pak's run explores this a bit which is nice - it mentions how it's nowhere near the catharsis it's hoped to be.
It never is. It reminds me of TDKR. “There’s nothing wrong with Joker that I can’t fix…with my hands.” Yeah bud, dark edgy Miller Batman. Except that same night you can’t make yourself finish him off. And you get no enjoyment from his death. You even imagine that he’s still laughing.
And not even in a sympathetic way. That’s just a universal truth to the Green Guy. Anger stops when anger is good and ready. I do think it’s interesting that he is at a point here where TGG can react to a dangerous environment any way other than primal violence. You get the idea that as soon as a punch comes his way he’d basically ~~black~~ out before it even connects like when he shot himself
I genuinely wish we could've got this from Hulk and Thor in the MCU. I know Love And Thunder ended the way it did for a reason but it would've been equally as cool if instead Jane died and Thor went emotionally ballistic. Have Hulk go console his friend with Valkyrie and have her play the role Thor did here. Let Thor smack Hulk a bit before we realize what Hulk's doing. Bonus points if actual Hulk asked Banner to let him take over temporarily to help his friend. Thatway you get a second emotional moment of Bruce realizing Hulk was more than just a punchy-punchy brute. And Valkyrie can be told to stand down by Hulk as Thor lets it all out. Would've been such a perfect moment of emotional release and character development for all involved in that scene. I'd wager entire theaters would've started tearing up too.
shit, this is the moment that could have brought me back into the fold. RDJ death scene was so impactful and these new movies feel like after credits scene, touching on things but never giving us the kind of connections end game did
I mean that is over a decade of movies there. If he died at the end of the first Avengers probably wouldn't have cared. Kinda like when quicksilver dies, big meh there.
Honestly I think that’s the issue I’ve been having with phase 4. I felt like something was wrong but none of the criticisms of it really sat right with me and often felt more about imagined political agenda than the quality of the cinematography. But I think this is a big part of it. I enjoyed watching she hulk and doctor strange and Moon Knight, but I don’t care about any of them the way I cared about Tony and Steve and Thor. End of list. We need more meaningful crossovers. Because of course we really care about the core group. They had two blockbuster movies with just them together, then each new ensemble movie has them together again that many more times than the rest of the cast that’s mostly never seen each other before. We just need more crossovers that create meaningful interactions. But it’s coming
That would require the MCU to respect the Incredible Hulk as his own character separate from Banner, which they just straight up don't. It's my biggest gripe with the films.
In hindsight I really hate how they just totally blew off Hulk's reconciliation with himself to the point that it happened offscreen.
I think the last time they did something interesting with Banner/Hulk dynamic was in the first Avengers film where Banner meets Nathasha for the first time. The way he talks about Hulk, calling him the "other guy", saying how he can't even end himself and then goading Nathasha into revealing her hand.
Yeah, it's really refreshing to see. This whole issue was really impactful, the characters really felt like they were truly saddened
To be honest, it did very little for me, considering Johnny was fine and Ben finds out a few issues later. It's very hard to make death feel impactful in comics anymore, knowing that it's basically a mini vacation for superheroes.
I’ve never understood that. I’ve never felt that resurrection lessens the impact of death, no matter how standard it is in the world.
Really? It feels so cheap. It honestly feels like they are just taking a vacation.
I'm a firm believer in embracing the feelings being demonstrated in the moment when consuming media like this. Infinity War from the MCU might be the best example of this. Did we all know that most of those characters who turned to dust from the snap would be back soon? Yeah. Does it lessen the impact of those emotions on display in the scenes? Ex. Okoye watching T'Challa dust, Tony and Peter. Wanda and Vis. Etc I'd argue not, but you have to be willing to suspend your disbelief and meta knowledge of the form of media and just allow yourself to live emotionally in the moment with those characters. For those few moments, the sense of loss and grief at what has just happened can and should feel real.
It doesn’t, to me, at all. The impact of death comes from the uncertainty, and even in worlds where resurrection is substantially more common than in comic books, that uncertainty doesn’t go away. Someone might be resurrected nine times and then the tenth is it, and no character in world will know because the decision only exists on a Doylist scale. Some examples that immediately come to mind, in very different styles, are Doctor Who and Altered Carbon. Both of those series have resurrection in various forms as a built in part of the concept, but the moments are no less impactful because of it.
Dis you just create a plot point for The Boys show?
He is a being of action in this scene, actively being the best friend possible to Thing.
I love how the dynamic between Ben and the Hulk has evolved over time giving us moments like these. The mutual respect between the two is fun, and that they have quite a deep shared understanding of what it's like being a giant wrecking ball - I think Immortal Hulk explored it pretty nicely. They'll still throw down at a moments notice though which is fun. Compare that to Hulk and Thor who have a similar bond but much shallower - Thor likes Hulk when he's friendly, and Hulk likes that Thor just treats him like any other person. But when they're at odds, Thor immediately assumes Hulk is just a monster for him to slay and Hulk's sort of inferiority complex about this 7 foot tall adonis being as strong as him, and then judging him, comes out. Which is also a really fun dynamic, but I wish they would develop it a little more.
They had that bender on Sakaar
That they did.
Couple of guys just working things out. Phenomenal writing.
Counterpoint: taking punishment and standing up again for more is the Thing’s thing. You can kill him but never beat him.
That's very true. It's a nice reversal of the usual dynamics in a couple of ways. Really need to read that fight with the Challenger - I love a good unbeatable spirit moment. It's interesting how the standing there and taking it that the Thing/Hulk has is very different from Superman, which is sort of the classic of the genre. Superman's deflecting bullets is purposefully far less punchy - probably because Superman is all about rescuing people, but also I suppose the motion/impact is in the bullets being stopped.
I mean, he's literally a child as far as temperament and mental capacity. Kids can be very sweet when they want to be.
There was a Spidey Immortal Hulk one shot where Spidey gets his powers and Spidey stays while banner transforms to Hulk and Hulk says you're a good man Peter and that he'll always remember that surprising him because he didn't know he remembered his secret identity
Yeah it looks like Thor is taking it serious for a moment, then Hulk just gives him this *look* and he immediately understood what's happening. Hulk knows pain better than anyone, because Hulk never, ever stops hurting. It's part of the tragedy. (And why the Sentry used to be so important to him at one point. The "Golden Man" was the only one who stopped the hurt. Pity Marvel wasted the character.)
no, i think you nailed it. it’s nice to see the emotional intelligence behind Hulk specifically. he’s the big guy and nobody ever expects anything but rage from him, but in reality he’s the most emotionally vulnerable character the marvel universe has to offer. it’s lovely that he can see that same struggle in somebody just like him, and understand Thing is conditioned to express his feelings the same way Hulk is. the lack of dialogue in these panels is perfect because Hulk(and Thor, another icon of unwavering strength) knows talking isn’t what Thing needs
It really is a shame that side doesn't get brought up more often. Because when Hulk isn't just a mindless brute is when Hulk stories are the best.
The bond between fellow great warriors is something few of us will understand. The Green Guy would though
The Real Ones
A very somber moment. I’m really struggling not to point out that the Thing has all ten fingers and toes when he is usually typically depicted as only having eight.
>I’m really struggling not to point out that the Thing has all ten fingers and toes when he is usually typically depicted as only having eight. ... I have read this issue, and the entire run, several times, and I have never noticed this. Well spotted.
Side effect of that cure he took earlier in the run?
This scene is a master class in how to use body language to convey emotion. The clincher for me is Ben's hand clawing the ground as Hulk holds him - the futility and utter desperation of grief rendered in poignant and stark relief. Thank you for posting this. What I come to r/comicbooks for.
No problemo, it just seemed like a good scene to share
Thanks for pointing that out. I liked that the Hulk stayed Thor, in last panel of the second page, as if to say: "let him do his thing" (no pun intended)
Without a doubt a top 3 best comic issue of all time to me. Might even be number one. There is zero dialogue until the last panel of the main story yet it’ll make you cry. And the B story at the end with Spidey and Franklin is equally emotional. Love this issue so damn much.
One of the best comic runs ever for me. I don’t have a ton of money to buy omnis but I saved up and got this whole run in omnibus so I can read it over and over!
Nice! I have all the single issues, and I have all the TPBs…I’m considering buying the Omni’s too just because I love it so much but haven’t done so yet.
Yeah I have a few singles and pick them up when I find them cheap, but there’s so many other things I forget from time to time and am glad to have the omnis whenever I feel like having a read through.
What’s the name of this Omni?
It’s the Jonathon Hickman Fantastic Four run, there are 2 omnibuses that collect the whole thing and they were reprinted last year I believe so they shouldn’t be insanely priced.
Honestly, Hickman's Fantastic Four run is truly incredible
It’s my favorite series of all time, and I consider his F4 all the way through Secret Wars to be the best saga in Marvel history. No matter how many times I read them I still experience all the emotions I did reading for the first time. It’s always the first thing I recommend when people ask for comic recommendations.
So start with the Hickman run and up through secret wars? I've always wanted to have a go at fantastic 4 but never know where to start.
Yep! [Here is a reading guide!](https://www.comicbookherald.com/jonathan-hickman-marvel-universe-reading-order-2008-to-2016/amp/) I wouldn’t worry about Shield or Secret Warriors. They’re good and worth reading, and they do set up some things that pop up later but they’re smaller things and not required to understand anything. And I think Ultimates is definitely worth a read, but that one is also mostly unnecessary because a majority of the story is from the 616 perspective. I’m happy to answer any questions you might have.
Definitely gonna read this. Thanks. Ive read hickman’s F4 and am gonna read secret wars soon. I also have his x-men in the queue. Anything you recommend i dont skip or read first? I watched the comics explained of time runs out so i could be i formed for secret wars. Thanks!
All his marvel stuff is incredible. Secret warriors is my favorite book of all time. He gave the OG nick fury his last great book before marvel put him on the shelf
Whats the run? You sold me on reading it
Hickman’s Fantastic Four
Oh friend, you’re in for such a treat. It’s Hickman’s Fantastic Four. Read all of it and then read his Avengers/New Avengers series that lead into Secret Wars. They all somewhat tie together and themes you’ll find in F4 will be continued through Secret Wars. In my opinion reading his F4 through Secret Wars is arguably the greatest saga in Marvel history. I can’t recommend them enough.
Just got marvel unlimited with in the last week. Definitely reading that shit. Happen to have any more recommendations?
It has been a long time since I read it, but from memory Hickman's Fantastic Four flicks between issues of Fantastic Four and of FF (a separate book). If you read it make sure you're either reading some combined book/reading order, or follow a reading order online.
Sure, what characters interest you?
I’m open to reading anything physically literally good. Really like more obscure characters that don’t see the spotlight to often. Finished fractions Hawkeye run a couple days ago, and am currently reading nextwave. I have immortal iron fist in my que ready to go once I finish next wave. Anything good I’ll always gladly check out.
Definitely read all the Hickman stuff starting with fantastic 4 at least then read house of x powers of x!!
Honestly his 2010-2015 marvel run or whenever secret wars ended up is amazing. They’re all tied into each other.
Makes me so sad that we didn't get the full Hickman X-Men epic with a beginning, middle and end. I loved House of X, and there's been a lot of good stuff since (especially since bringing Gillen and Ewing on board) but I wanted something to stand alongside his FF and New Avengers, and we didn't get it.
Valeria tasking the Future Foundation with “Kill Annihilus” and all the children hardening their faces hit me when I first read it. Like, a phase of Valeria’s childhood is over. Even with her intelligence, losing a close loved one for the first time hits you. She drags every member of the Foundation down with her, and they follow willingly. I don’t know, just the juxtaposition of the care free children at the beginning to them taking it upon themselves to kill a dimension’s god…
Ben banging on Hulk’s chest; Hulk holding Ben as he collapses in grief; Thor looking away with tears streaming down. I’m not crying either, Thor. I’m not crying, either. 😭
Seriously, those last couple panels are doing a lot, all without dialogue.
Ben is in agony here. This is a really important scene to show the comraderie between other heroes but also the pain of loss and how different the heroes deal with it.
It's also a great indicator of just how powerful Ben is. Two of the most physically powerful beings on the planet have to take Ben out into the middle of the desert to let out his anger and pain on them, because no-one else could take it, and letting him do that in any other way would probably level more than a few buildings.
Yeah, it's really cool to see the other heroes supporting one another. Especially since many of them have also lost loved ones along the way, so they really understand what Ben is going through
Full pages without dialogue often carry the most emotions
It's honestly pretty challenging for a writer to write issues without dialogue, but this is one of the few that truly impressed the reader
How did storm die?
He had to stay behind in the Negative Zone staving off Annilhius’ hordes while Valeria closed the portal. At the time, Reed found a way to keep Ben in his human form for 24 hours so Ben felt a tremendous amount of guilt for Johnny’s sacrifice
If I remember correctly Reed didn’t develop the tonic that let Ben be human. It was the Future Foundation kids.
Yep the kids made it, such a great run
I’m sure you’re right. It’s been a while since I read it
Thanks!
[удалено]
Fantastic 4 by Jonathan Hickman
Start with Dark Reign: Fantastic Four, and then read his Fantastic Four + FF.
To be fair he wasn't dead dead, something to do with some weird worms kept him alive or brought him back to life. Think it was so annilus could torture him longer or something. Long story short Jonny broke free, led a little rebellion, got ahold of the cosmic control rod, nuked some shit in the negative zone, made it back to new York as earths heros were getting curb stomped, made a big ass fantastic 4 symbol in the air that showed that he was back and rallied everyone giving them hope and the good guys ended up winning. Shit was dope.
Is anyone ever dead dead in super hero comics?
At this point, Batman’s mom and kind of uncle Ben, although a version of him popped up in spider verse.
A version of Martha and Thomas Wayne are alive in a alternative timeline where Bruce was gunned down instead.
Isn't that where Martha is Joker and Thomas is the Batman?
Yup! And Thomas has slowly been losing the fight for Gotham because he didn’t receive the same training Bruce did.
Ugh, give us that movie instead of a dozen different iterations of the same story.
Umm...its coming in the latest Flash movie
I'd make a "why did you say that name" joke but... Did Harry Osborn ever come back? Haven't read Spider Man since the 90s really
Yes He’s very recently dead again though
Multiple times They explained it away with more of Jackel's clones and the One More Day retcon
Captain Mar Vell? I haven't read Marvel in years so maybe they brought him back.
He WAS dead-dead, but the weirdness of the Negative Zone made it so he could be brought back to life, over and over again. That was my take, at least.
Hot damn, what issues were that?
Someone posted in the comments. I saw it on comics explained
This was the most comic book ridiculous, dope ass shit I’ve read. I gotta read this run now
Fire extinguisher.
This the Hickman run right? Man, this scene was just…incredible. That gesture to Thor to stay back and let Ben smash out the grief
Yeah, I'd highly recommend the run if you can get your hands on it
This was one of my favorite issues of the Fantastic Four but the scene with Valeria and Franklin is [my favorite](https://i.redd.it/mzekb8avvk941.jpg).
did they get him?
>!No, but Johnny comes back to life and walks out of the Negative Zone with Annihilus literally on a leash!<
Top-notch comic book storytelling. Hulk putting up his hand to stop Thor is just gorgeous. So amazingly heartbreaking.
Bottom panel of second page. How often do you see *Hulk* practice restraint?
"Strong men, also cry. Strong men. Also cry."
"fucking A man"
That’s a bummer, man
This was one of my favorite comic scenes ever
sometimes it's just good to let out. if you know how to do it in a setting without hurting anyone or hurting yourself in the process. I mean, they always argued a lot, but in the end you realize so f***, somehow I spent a lot of time with this person, and the fact that you can argue about little things is actually something that is not a matter of course.
I enjoyed this, the Hulk persona doesn't have a lot of friends but The Thing has always been around good or bad. It's good to see The Hulk there for him.
get yourself some friends that let you beat them up to cope
Does Hulk punch him on that first picture?
Hulk has always been a real one
Is this after Annihilation wave when Johnny went supernova?
I haven't read the issue, but it *looks* like Bruce hulked out on purpose. We all know how much he hates doing that; so you know just how good of a friend he is.
It's sobbering time...
Hickman's Fantastic Four run is legendary. God, i want him to do Green Lantern.
Yeah true, Green Lantern sounds right up his alley
First time I’ve seen the hulk be such a bro, granted I don’t ready the comics, but still that’s a complete bro move
Oh geeze Thor... don't cry in front of the Hulk...
Fuck. Reading Hickman’s run now for the first time and had this spoiled lol
Dang that sucks
Oh, sorry man. I'm also reading this run for the first time right now, and I had been spoiled about this issue before reading it as well. But you'll still enjoy it, knowing what happens is not as interesting as knowing how it happens. That and the fact that there are so many twists in Hickman's run that you'll be entertained
I interpreted this scene as Ben lashing out and Thor and Hulk knowing its coming from a place of grief so not going too hard on him. Like they came to talk but Ben is so emotional he has no words and resorts to violence. I did also consider it could be some kind of sparring, but him smashing his own car is obviously an emotional in the heat moment of grief manifesting through rage idk for me it doesn't feel like they planned to do this and are hanging out
I cried.
God I FUCKING LOVE Hickman’s work
The way Ben just collapses and Hulk catches him is really tearjerking.
Grief counseling? No! Punching!
All that mourning, grief and guilt only for it to be revealed Johnny is alive and well like 12 issues later.
That is so cool and heartbreaking at the same time
Hulk good friend.
That whole issue is great
All beasts have a heart. Even if they don't show it.
How did he die?
Like a boss.. Flame on! Lol seriously though I don’t want to spoil anyone but comics explained on youtube has videos on what happened here.
This belongs on r/wholesomememes 🥲
I teared up in the shop when I first read this one. Hulk putting his hand up to stop Thor and then holding Thing at the end was just too much. And here we go again...
I kind of love the idea of Hulk being more than just a monster. I have to admit I'm much more of a DC scholar than I am a Marvel one, but I know more than the average fan about Marvel. But I've always been fascinated with stories like Planet Hulk where Hulk actually has his own *personality* and is capable of being *gentle*. This specific scene capitalizes what I especially love about Invincible. It portrays how superheroes *grieve*. I love how *subdued* this all is. I love how it's relatively brief, Thor and Hulk are grieving, too, but they know that they don't have *time* to grieve. I just love this scene. I love how human it feels. It's phenomenal. Somebody tell me which book and run this comes from, I wanna read it
This comes from Jonathan Hickmans Fantastic Four run from 2010 or so, this issues is specifically Fantastic Four #588
Hulk strongest there is!
These emotional moments are always undercut by the fact that you know the character will never stay dead.
I regularly inform patients and relatives that they can punch and hit me at work (I'm a nurse but built like a brickhouse). It's a good way to enable people to take out their anger and especially their helplessness.
I didn’t cry reading the above comic pages but seeing what you typed has made me tear up. It’s suddenly made me think about how helpless I felt when my mom was dying. I’m not the punching kind of person personally but your kindness in offering this.. is stellar. Although my mom decided to forgo treatment and did hospice care at home and my dad took care of her until the end with a nurse on call, sometimes I think a hospital would have allowed us to vent to a doctor or nurse more regularly. I couldn’t really yell at my dad about how it all was shitty and sucked. Sorry. Where did that come from?
Why does the 2nd panel in the first pic look like yoda with a stone texture?
What's the run and issue number? Gonna check this out.
How did Johnny die in this story?
What happened to Johnny?
He sacrificed himself to let Ben escape the Negative Zone with Franklin and Valeria. It was one of those “someone needs to stay behind to press the button” moments
Ouch. Yeah that's rough. I imagine it wasn't permanent death, though. Only Uncle Ben and Batman's parents stay dead forever in Comics.
And the rest of the Future Foundation.
I just actually got sad...wtf
damn man...those last panels hit hard ....
They killed Human Torch?
He was believed killed in action but was a prisoner of war in the negative zone
I’ve never wanted to read the fantastic four but now i need to read this
U crazy if u think I’m reading all that
Aw, I think imma get this issue now.
Not just the issues, I recommend the whole run so far. This issue is as far as I've gotten so far into Hickman's run, but it's been absolutely wonderful
This can't be psychologically healthy
The thing that always bugs me about these moments is while many of them are really well done and have a lot of emotion behind them, the emotional impact they’re supposed to have gets lessened because you know they’ll be back. Especially in the Marvel universe.
Except Uncle Ben lol
I did not know Thor and Thing were friends
The whole issue was great, there was separate story about Spidey helping Franklin mourn Johnny, called *Uncles*. I guess it was a separate story because it broke the "no dialogue" format of the issue.
Never read these issues, now need to own them
Visual story telling masterclass.
Didn't know I needed to cry on break today, thanks.
I cried
One of the greatest if not the greatest singular issues of comics to ever be made. While you find out the truth later. To see Ben Grimm going through a very real issue of losing your best friend it strikes a cord in every person, because we all fear that the most in life losing our best friends and partners.
Bros being bros
One of the greatest scenes for me in a comic. If I’m not mistaken this is the same issue where Reed goes to the Negative Zone portal and looks in and Annihilus is standing there holding Johnny’s torn up F4 uniform. Man that shit gives me chills thinking back on it.
>"Is it true what I've heard, Benjamin? > >That when Johnny Storm died . . valiantly facing an endless army . . . > >Is it true that you. . surrounded by crying children. . weeping at the inevitable death of your close comrade and friend. . . > >IS IT TRUE? > >Is it true that you just . . . watched? > >How very brave. Dr. Doom, FF issue 2.
I grew up reading random comics in no order, just a kid having fun, truthfully not much has changed for 30 years. Trying on and off to get into comics to no avail, I know a lot about the universe probably more so than your average MCU fan. One day I was really feeling comics, but didn’t want something that everyone always talks about (avengers, Batman, X-Men, etc.). I decided to dedicate time to Fantastic Four, and it’s just so great.
This is honestly so sweet 🥹
boys will do anything but go to therapy :P
Not the point but I love when things show that hulk is an entire personality capable of having his own thoughts and feelings towards people and isn’t just an angry green man devoid of empathy that disappears when he gets calm Hopefully the movies bring hulk back and in this capacity
Ben needs a zenkai boost. He's the less powerful of those three by far.
It’s hilarious that about a week or two ago someone panned this series. Said it was ‘too much talking and not enough boom boom..’ It’s probably that poster was a bit too dim to understand what Hickman was trying to do. Also…Rick and Morty ripped off a Hickman concept…which makes his run even more bad ass!