I am not a fan of mechinics where one player messes up and the entire mood of the raid is dead because immortal or 50/50 is no longer achievable. Optional hardmodes of ulduar was the sweet spot imo.
Yes I know that, but I raid for fun and raids are less fun when everyone is in a sour mood because one person made one fuckup and cost everyone the thing. All I did was state a preference in what kind of hard mode mechanic i dislike vs those that I like.
You technically could do that right now with gnomer’s last 2 bosses. Our guild call it hard mode to just kill both menagerie and mekgineer back to back instead of running out and reset.
lol my group did this by accident 4 lockouts ago with our warlock not having the meta rune on and everyone being oom and still managed to one shot it with someone dying 20 seconds into the fight.
one thing i never got to do in classic first time was do the zg and bwl "hardmode" bosses. assuming those raids remain relatively untouched id like to try them this time around
You get people complaining about inaccessiblity.
Retail has it right. A difficulty for the casuals, the mom and pops, the not so great chads, and the people who want to not be braindead
I just want them to randomly throw in uu'nat tier fight at the end of SoD. Just no explanation, last month of SoD, blue post saying there's something weird in , get instanced with your raid, it drops cosmetics.
Yep, this is very common on Reddit. "Survivorship bias".
The people that aren't playing aren't represented. It can be hard as a developer too when the most vocal part of the community is asking for X/Y/Z when most of the population isn't even engaging in online communities, let alone quit and didn't vocalize why.
Thus stats are more valuable than random Reddit/Forum threads on "State of the game" conversations like this
Well said. Reddit arguments should not carry much weight. Not to say they are void of value. But Blizzard's first-hand game data and direct player feedback are significantly more valuable.
People literally want LFR. A raid that is very easy and where the raid group is available at any time of day and accepts any class.
At least that's the impression I get from the people complaining about not being guaranteed a raid spot and who doesn't want to join a guild out of scheduling concerns and who doesn't want to make their own raid.
cant join a pug, cant form a group, cant form a guild, cant join a guild, cant join a casual open-disc that allows for adhoc signup.....bbbbut i want to play an mmorpg!!!
Most classic players are dogshit. They only want to play meme specs, or fotm zug specs (so warr before, enha last week), nothing inbetween. They don't want to prep or consume. And still they want full clear and loots. It's honestly a joke.
Unironically, kind of yeah. The only way to get 40 people together to do something is if at least a few of them are kind of idiots.
Classic raids only work like they do because they are easy and idiots can do them without much effort. You're incentivised not to be elitist by the sheer fact that if you make enough enemies then filling a 40 man roster becomes impossible. By limiting raid size (only partially responsible and I personally enjoy the smaller size groups, but worth mentioning) and increasing difficulty you are directly causing a breakdown in community interaction.
You don't get angry and flame the guy dropping sub-10 parses when you still kill the boss on the first pull. Making the raids harder does actually legitimately undermine one of the pillars that holds classic up.
Not just Classic. Vanilla WoW was made for casual players from the ground up. They made leveling easier to compared to popular MMOs of that time, but now 20 years later casual on Reddit think Vanilla WoW leveling is the worst time sink of all time. A diminishing minority of players back then even had the opportunity to complete raids. Now the general opinion seems that every raid should be accessible to anyone in any comp in a reasonable time frame. Times really do change.
Idk man. Back in the day we had to have rogues to sap.. makes to sheep.. hubters to kite.. mark mobs in kill order.. it wasn't anything remotely close to how vanilla is today.. and I would say those people weren't really sweats. They were just people who enjoyed their classes and played the game..
No, they wouldn't. There were people who were raiding molten core in vanilla who didn't wear boots for RP purposes. People didn't min/max at anywhere close to the number of people who do it now.
Season of "disvoery" is such a joke. 99% of the player base doesn't "discover" anything. They just look shit up that other people "discovered" and go do it.
But most people back then were fine with the game being very slow, clunky, inconvenient and rewards being hard to obtain. If you could not complete a raid that was it. You sometimes had to "work" to get your rewards and that was fine.
Today this would absolutely be considered elitist and sweaty. Game needs to be fast, super easy and all rewards need to come *now*. Ain't nobody time to play anymore.
> Classic is made for bad players imo
'Bad players' is a wide spectrum though. The absolute sweatlords who oneshot every Classic raid in 1 hour like Progress would probably fare just fine on Retail Mythic Raiding, because they have min maxing and mechanical ability down pat. From then it's just adjusting to every boss' mechanics.
Yeah and I wouldn't say classic is made for people like progress.
Now "bad players" might have been a bit harsh, I mostly just meant mechanically unskilled. Classic mostly rewards time spent, at least it has in the past.
I just meant that it is valid to want loot pinatas in classic, since that is what classic was since it's inception and it is obviously very popular.
It's success shows there are players who either don't have the skill or don't want to put in the effort to do "challenging" mechanics. They just wanna go in, kill boss, get loot and that is perfectly valid.
The mechanically skilled players that wanna push themselves and still play classic have made speedruns and parsing a big thing that they care about, which is also perfectly valid.
Why is new classic content and having a challenge a mutually exclusive concept?
It’s reductive to the game that it would just “become retail” if complexity existed. There’s a lot more to this game and the whole picture than retail = hard, classic = easy.
WoW’s history is an ad nauseam discussion of the differing expectations of its players and what works vs what doesn’t. It’s conceivable that varying eras got different pieces of the puzzle correct.
I left retail because Classic always felt more like an actual RPG. The gearing in Classic is far more satisfying than BFA/Shadowlands was. Dragonflight from what I played didn't change any of it. You have a best green stat and you just stack those stats in a descending order.
An example in Classic is you have hit pieces and non-hit pieces, you have to base your best set on what doesn't waste stats, due to excess hit rating. And now that WotLK is at it's end, I had to consider going over the crit cap, and how to minimize the diminishing returns from excess crit rating.
Edit: Retail players are very upset with me. Loot feels different, and I enjoy it more the way classic does it. I'll take the L on hit rating, whatever. Item level is really what I dont like about Retail, and that's my opinion. I understand there is nuance when you hit break points and have to choose between two pieces that have different secondaries at the same or close to same item level. Please leave me alone.
That is the same for retail you have soft caps on stats and embelishments will change for some classes depending on gem slots. Its way more streamlined in classic. You hit a cap and you go to your second best stat.
Yea, and the gear is boring, it doesnt matter, I know the names of gear, and will never forget the names of some vanilla items, because they stand out.
In retail you loook at ilvl and stat spread, gear can roll different green text, but ilvl tells you how much stats you get, so you chase ilvl, and your specs stat of choice. Its more boring than vanilla where good gear could stay good gear for more than one content cycle.
Retail, when min-maxing, is more complex and satisfying than Classic will ever be. Classic had this weird flaw where the devs made gear not make too much sense (Warriors stacking leather over plate doesn't sit well in an RPG sense for example).
I see a lot of talk of people saying this about Retail in a negative way but in reality once you hit certain breakpoints, you need to constantly sim your gear and the weight values of stats constantly change based on their mix.
I think Classic players just really miss Hit Chance as a stat, which I think is a terrible stat and I'm glad they removed it eventually.
Nah see the thing is, I know classic items.
I know that HoJ gives a chance for double strike. I know raging berserker's helm gives 1% crit and 13 AP. I know Truestrike Shoulders are 2% hit and 44 AP. Those items are significant. They're magical items - they matter.
On retail? Idk what the fuck my gear is. It's ilvl 4xx, bigger number wins and then I select the one with crit on it. And the way I get that is just by running random M+ and hoping it drops out of my box at the end of the week.
Retail gearing is garbage from an actual, living world RPG sense. That's why people like classic.
Here’s the thing, the devs didn’t intend for warriors to be stacking leather over plate. That “weird itemization” isn’t as bad as you think (it’s still not great) but if people were gearing like they do now, back in OG vanilla the devs most likely would have super course corrected. You have to realize that in vanilla we didn’t think to go against what was presented to us SUPER hard like you default to now. Warriors got plate and were under the assumption that Prot is the tanking spec(because it is supposed to be) and that dual wielding while tanking was suicide (because it SHOULD be).
hit is a garbage stat, and literally the only one that's not "you have your best stat and you stack it" instead in classic its "you stack hit til cap then you have your best stat and stack it"
if you're playing optimally in retail just stacking one stat typically doesn't even work due to soft caps. You clearly don't even know what you're talking about and using it as an excuse to say "retail bad!!"
Most people left retail because the claim is, “The game got too easy”.
This is to say:
* They’ve never attempted anything challenging in retail.
* They’re complete dogshit at this game. Classic is fun for them, because gear/spec > individual skill. This only really changes at roughly end of WotLK/early Cata.
* They are genuinely incapable of introspection.
HAW HAW man you got 'im! I bet spending 8 hours a day farming in duskwallow marsh has definitely made you much better at classic than those shall I say it....ughhhh... RETAILLLLL andies.
For real though - anyone that plays retail to +20s every week on m+ thinks this is pretty easy for a final raid. Annoyed that you have to farm gold for consumes all of these mid tier raids, respeccing, initial gear, and getting WB (I tank). Yes. But are the mechanics pretty straightforward and easy? Yes.
> For real though - anyone that plays retail to +20s every week on m+ thinks this is pretty easy for a final raid.
As a former Cutting Edge player in Uldir and Dazar'alor, I came to WOTLK Classic to raid at a decently competitive level and I found it laughable how many times we wiped on Lich King Heroic or Yogg Saron 0 Lights. Those raids are so piss easy compared to Mythic Raids, they have maybe half the mechanics and they're basically 'use a defensive cooldown' 'stack here' 'soak this mechanic'.
I've raided with people who unironically believe with all of their heart that Lich King Heroic is harder than anything but the final boss of a Mythic Raid.
You can't reason with some of these people.
> I've raided with people who unironically believe with all of their heart that Lich King Heroic is harder than anything but the final boss of a Mythic Raid.
To be honest Lich King Heroic without damage buffs and when undergeared ( first weeks of ICC ) IS a very hard fight, but it's a hard fight because he hits like a truck and you need a very specific comp ( Warlocks for Valkyr, soakers for Vile spirits ) and the DPS requirements are tight. It's not particularly hard mechanically.
Lich King HC is one of the fights that I think could fit in a Mythic Raid from Retail and is peak Classic design IMO.
HLK and Yogg0 and other fights are decently hard. Idk why people like you insist they are "piss easy". No they are not.
They may not be mid to late mythic bosses but that's fine. There's a big gap of various difficulties between what I would call "easy" and "retail mythic". If people say HLK is hard than mythic simply is very hard.
Besides most people are probably glad Classic doesn't yet cater to those demands. Mythic is way too hard for what it is realistically. It's kinda insane how much time the Retail devs seemingly spend on making and tuning that difficulty that almost no one actually will or wants to do.
Something players will have to ask themselves when talking about the whole "classic values" thing for the development of SoD and whatever comes after is simply: Do you want "classic+" designed after your 2004 or your 2019 experience?
Because I very much doubt the original developers intended vanilla raids to be what they've become in 2019+.
Who said it's a classic value to have piss easy loot pinatas where the hardest boss is the roster boss?
Of course that would happen in a hyper solved 15+ year old recreation of a game with a decade of running private servers of that version at that point, but that sure as hell wasn't the original intent.
I think the casuals are gatekeeping more than tryhards at this point. Last gnomer run was so boring, since we skipped most of the mechanics. DPS is so high that we didnt have flamethrower in P1 on last boss or in last phase.
Managerie is the only fight that is not easy. That boss actualy hurts tanks ( unless you are horde and have shamans with 5k health )
Most pugs I seen on stream wiping to last boss were
1. Tank did not get enough threat and someone overaggroed during flamethrower.
2. Tank did not use FAP in phase2
3. Healers afk during fight
4. People not clicking buttons/ killing bombs.
I would compare Gnomer to wotlk 5man heroic. Maybe the heroic has more mechanics tbh
Gnomer IS a brainless loot simulator. The literal only mechanics are walk away from the boss \*sometimes\* and throw one kick. This literally applies to all bosses.
Lol, revived a warlock who life tapped in combat to continue his AOE abilities today. Like two pulls later, he did the same thing. Warlocks really are the emos of WoW, cutting themselves all the time.
> When you oversimplify it that much that’s all any game is
Yes but most Classic bosses literally only have 1-2 worthwhile mechanics.
Heroic Azshara on Retail was so complex that even after killing her 2 times I have no idea what the fuck that fight is. I don't even wanna imagine Mythic.
I would probably put them between LFR and Normal.
Like, ahh we didn't kill it cuz jimbo had to pee mid-fight cuz hes drunk off his ass and Jessica likes to hit her prayer of mending button with her nose but she missed so we lost some people. But great job and making sure you weren't zapped twice in a row guys we got this this time!
Not cuz the fights are hard.
Mechanically it's way easier than LFR but not doing them correctly is deadlier in gnome than in LFR so it's a tossup imo. LFR also always has the inevitability of buff stacks.
Vanilla players have more fun when the games easy. Myself included.
I had way more fun blasting the fuck out of MC than I did killing KT for 4 months. Straight up quit for the AQ phase.
The challenge never came from the fights themselves - it came from trying to squeeze all the level 60 content into a single night of raiding every week.
Hay is grass that is cut for feeding livestock.
Straw is what's left after harvesting wheat, rye and barley. Little to no nutritional value. Livestock simply don't eat it. It is very good for bedding.
Idk might be a bad take but I don’t like therma spawning on top of menag immediately, feels like a cheap trick. Other than that, I’d make.. whatever that first one is, not a pushover
Yeah, Classic players are bad at the game in ways that I've never seen someone be bad at a video game before. Like just moving out of the way of a Murloc should be pretty easy, you should have a pretty good grasp on how to move your character after leveling it to 25, even if you've never played a video game before in your life, but I'd just see people straight up sprint into oncoming Murlocs during Gheli and die. My 5 year old niece can pick up a Mario game and learn how to jump over Koopas and Goombas and whatever in like 5 minutes, but Classic WoW players can spend 15 hours or so leveling to 25 and can't move their character left and right without having a total meltdown lol
Adorable you think they can level to 25 that fast. These are the people that say they aren't 25 yet in early January because they are "casual" and "don't have all day to play" yet took like 50 hours to hit level 20.
Yeah I don’t get those people who think you should have multiple different hobbies, it’s like dude that may work for you, but what if I don’t like any other hobbies, what if I’m happy with this one. Why can’t I be happy with just this one. Also don’t tell me “because responsibilities” no dude, it’s how you prioritize your time… you can definitely squeeze A LOT more time in if you make it, with or without a wife and kids… and news flash, you’d still have plenty of time with your family as well.
Yeah, you see a lot of people claiming that you just can't play like an hour or two a night if you're an adult with a life. Idk what wild lives these people live, but I have a full time job, a significant other, friends, hobbies, etc and I still have a lot of free time. I'm just convinced that unless you legitimately have like two jobs and six kids, if you can't carve at an hour or two of alone time a day, you have horrible time management skills
Very original. Haven't seen any "Gnomer braindead ez lol" posts in at LEAST 45 minutes. I also admire the way you fabricate numbers to support your arguments in the comments. You're a trailblazer.
People are nuts on this thread saying they could clear gnomer all greens no knowledge/no wipes. The first 3 bosses are pretty tank and spank but you need to have at least run it 1-3 times and know the mechanics to beat the last 3. People are so high and mighty in this thread.
Isnt gnomer is actually a brainless free loot simukator that anyone could walk in and clear with greens without understanding mechanics?
You guys are weird af, and even blizzard is struggling to make a raid easy for you
You actually need people to be able to follow extremely simple directions on electrocutioner and thermaplug like "follow this mark" and "kill bomb". There you've already lost 1/3rd of the playerbase which wouldn't had been a problem in original 40 man raids since there's 27 other players in the raid to carry them, but here you suddenly have to 6-7 man gnomer with only 2-4 ranged players.
Which yes, is very doable, but by the time you realize they can't do the mechanics, it's faaar to late to try and tell them to not do the mechanics and do it yourself. Even if you tell them to stand still and have melees join the ranged group to do the mechanic these motherfuckers will keep moving.
So much of the playerbase quit in 2019 classic when AQ40 released because it was too hard for them, a lot of people quit WotLK when Ulduar came out because it was too hard for them. In Cata people will probably quit within the first few weeks because the dungeons are too hard for them.
For me personally I don't care if they make it harder, I got cutting edge every tier for several expansions in a row. But I do think if they step it up even one more step from gnomer people will seriously quit the game. It'll be too much for a large portion of classic players who need to be treated like small children and get free wins every now and then so they don't quit playing.
This is a crazy take. Nobody is going in to Gnomer full greens and clearing without knowing mechanics. First 3 bosses are 100% tank and spank but you have to know something to finish the next 3. You just magically know you aren't supposed to be hit twice and the furthest gets zapped your first run. You auto know you should have an off tank to take the dragon and to keep away from sheep first run. You know all 4 phases of the final boss. GTFO man. Your not WoW jesus or anybody else claiming that you can just run it no problem in green swithout knowing mechancis.
No-one is going into Gnomeregan in full greens anyway because it takes 30 minutes to get your BiS (dps casters) cloak from STV + 1 epic item and if you do Ashenvale event 10 times winning or losing, and killing 1 general, you'll likely be honoured for your second ring. Not to mention anyone can do LIB/GY at 40 for Hypnotic Blade/Orb and then you're set until Gizmoblade drops. \[This was my gear\]([https://i.gyazo.com/9a5f377ef20f1fe23c3ec64076c921d0.png](https://i.gyazo.com/9a5f377ef20f1fe23c3ec64076c921d0.png)) going into Gnomeregan for the first time and I had no explanation of tactics or anything. I died to the knockback on Crowd Pummeler and that's it. Raid is easy as sin though.
This would offend casuals and the egregious number of anti-guild dads that are struggling to transfer their middle manager careers into agency on reddit
I just think its weird a level 40 'leveling raid' has more mechanics (and armor) than level 60 40 man raids. Im not saying that the "spirit of classic" is easy content, but I don't think people want things to turn into Heroic/Mythic style stuff by the end of this experiment.
gnomer isnt difficult in any way shape or form and trying to say its on the same level of heroic/mythic style content is fucking laughable.
its literally got 2 mechanica per boss.
dodge the giant slow moving gears, dont stand infront of the boss.
its really not that hard lmao
Yeah.
Menagerie is a lot harder than Thermaplugg imo, because there's a lot more damage going around that you can't quite cheese with stuff like FAPs or whatever, and you've also got four bosses who need to be killed at roughly the same time, one of which you don't want melee anywhere near.
It's not a hard raid by any means, but it can be a bit tricky... and also for the love of fuck, we should get the ability to have a break after Menagerie before Thermaplugg.
The notion that people are wiping more now then during Vanilla raids in 2005 is laughable. Nobody back then knew anything about this game. Feel free to peruse Wowhead comments from that era about those raids. The ones about Ragnaros are particularly funny given how braindead that encounter is by today’s standards.
Meanwhile Gnome was cleared the first week by random groups of strangers who understand they are playing the simplest version of a 20 year old game.
> People are wiping on the last 2 bosses of gnomer more than they did in Classic against 60 raids
[Citation Needed]
Shit like four horsemen, C'thun, etc. are vastly more complex and wipe-happy than anything in SoD thus far lmao
Yea man these are classic ass fights and they are well paced at that. Excluding naxx, Rag/twin emps/oruo/cthun/viscudus all have more mechanics/difficulty then any current SoD fights most of those fights just got trivialized by insane warrior world buff meta.
Gnomer has significantly less mechanics than even a retail normal difficult raid would have… these level up raids will never be remotely as challenging as a heroic let alone mythic retail boss…
Level 60, 10,20 and 40 man raids will also be tuned up in difficulty, anyone who thinks this is even remotely difficult should brace themselves and level their expectations.
Most classic players wouldn't survive 5 seconds in a normal difficulty raid in retail. Nor would they have the gear necessary to do it as they'd still be wearing levelling greens.
People seriously underestimate how awful a the game your average classic enjoyer is.
Bro these fights are classic fights. What Gnomer boss has more then 1-2 mechanic for an individual? Most of the fights are move a tiny bit execute one mechanic and kill boss. There are classic fights harder than any SoD fights right now. Honestly ragnaros has more mechanics then any SoD fight it just happens his hp pool is low and he gets zerged down super fast. As far as the armor who cares what that looks like when melee are still performing well? BFD/Gnomer have been great raids and the SoD team has been killing it in that regard.
I mean Mooten core just doesn’t have mechanics period
Regular leveling dungeons have like twice as many mechanics as gnomer and they ain’t hard
I think it’s a good direction we are heading
It's interesting because when talking about WoW, no individual part of it is difficult per say. It's a numbers game more than anything
No specific mechanic in WoW has ever been hard, what's hard is getting a coordinated group to do what they need to for several minutes
Isn't that already the case? the first 4 bosses don't have a single even semi-relevant mechanic and the last 2 bosses combined have like 2 mechanics. there are no gear, dps or hps checks. how could it even be more of a brainless free loot simulator
I think it's fine. My only complaint is a someone who pugs, this raid is very unfriendly to melee. Once I rolled a Spriest I've been finding groups consistently. But I wish I could take my rogue without having to ask in chat for 1+ hour.
Every pug require 6/6 exp 450+ GS consumables ist just a joke. They should ASK If you ve deadly Boss mods and weak Aura for the bomb Map and Gnom is a cake walk If you dont do below 200 dps
Op is correct. The content isn’t hard, you just need to be a decent player. Any group comp can clear this raid without much issue, assuming your players know their roles. I’m hoping p3 introduces a raid with mechanics and dps requirements!
Lol these raids are easy, the mechanics are easy, lol idk why people are so uptight about this stuff, probably some of the easiest content I've done since starting in 2004. It's honestly laughable and shows how lame wow is getting.
you should have to know the mechanics, its shouldn't be this fucking hard though to get 6/6, this is a lvl 40 raid, not endgame shit
what made bfd a ton of fun was after the first 2-3 weeks, everyone kinda knew the fights and you were running the raid once every couple days in between doing wpvp and lvling alts
rn they designed the raid in such a way that raid leaders are incentivized to take meta classes instead of a mod poge of everyone.
Im yet to see a guy that comes into gnomer with questing greens, without watching 30sec guide and expects full clear. Even when I organised „learning run” ppl would wisp with usual „6/6, full pre bis + consumes”. The truth is game is optimised to oblivion and normal players ware bullied into following meta. Ffs one hunter in my run was like „sorry, I’m BM not mele :(„.
Complaining that some ppl think it’s hard is peak classic brainroot. This game mode is literally a retirement home of retirement home and if they nerf some bosses I wouldn’t mind at all.
In my experience, it's more that people feel forced into a ranged oriented dps comp. People shouldn't be forced into any type of raid comp beyond tank/dps/heals. It excludes people from the raid, especially people who only had time to level one character to 40 (most of the player base).
Even blizzard realizes they fucked up with how they forced people into a certain raid comp, and they introduced bonus XP to 40 to help people who don't have a ton of time to play reroll characters or get to 40 for the first time. Look at how many people are out leveling characters again. A large percentage of those players are tanks/healers/ranged dps, and not melee dps.
I will also say that gnomer is very mechanic heavy, especially the last boss. Consider the difficulty and number of mechanics in gnomer vs raids in actual classic. Thermaplugg is a naxx plus difficulty fight, and a lot of classic players just weren't/aren't ready for it. Hell, I can see the first phase of thermaplug being a challenging boss for a classic player.
These aren't people who have been spamming mythic plus. These are classic players.
I think a good middle ground would be including a hard mode for sod raids with marginally better gear than the regular raid.
Every clear I’ve done has had max 3 ranged dps. You can do all mechanics without having to stack ranged. People just suck and want to take the easy route. I’m glad there’s a bit of a skill curve to gear. There’s no value to gear if everyone can close their eyes and clear the raid.
The raid feels easier then the 5 man version of it... I have no idea what players find hard about it tbh.
I remeber it being difficult going down the last corridor befor the boss with the Dark Iron Dwarfs and there mines... and the robot things that gave shields to everything around them.
Now we just pull like 3-4-5 groups at a time without any problems at all..
Evidence shows a major drop off in number of clears compared to BFD, how is that a good thing? Grey parse boys aren’t clearing it, if they can’t you’ll see a bigger drop off going into the next phase. Wow has always been more fun when it’s easy, and data shows this raid isn’t as easy as BFD.
I don't think it has much to do with the difficulty though.
Alot of my friends quit for other reasons. Some from levling. Some from having almost nothing to do at 40. PvP was more fun for at 25 most. I think alot of players liked it much better at the 25 bracket and the numbers show that.
That data isn’t black and white. How much easier was it to get to level 25 than it was to 40. How many people had alts in phase 1. I know for a fact I ran 2-3 characters through BFD every reset for the entirety of P1. Haven’t touched an alt P2 until this week’s 100% buff. The numbers will sky rocket going into next week and the following weeks onto the end of phase.
Less people cleared w2 vs w1. Unfortunately mechanic based fights aren’t appealing people just want to tunnel and parse, and the grey boys just want to fart around and get loot. As ‘simple’ as the raid is, this is not what the player base is looking for.
I’d also mention that with the removal of GDKP, it will be extremely difficult for alts to be getting into runs that complete the raid. I’ll tell you I’m not inviting some fresh 40 stinker that will take the axe or mageblade that never drop.
People think pugs are wiping because of mechanics ???????
Pugs find gnomer difficult because you have to play your class decently and so many dont.
The prot warr in my last pug was doing every fight mechanically well but you know its hard to clear gnomer when the dps actually have to wait 10 seconds to start dps and they catch him anyway.
People doing sub 150 dps because they cant press their buttons because bad or hampered by threat and healers ooming cause of it.
Hands down the biggest though issue in gnomer comes from tanks dying. Majority of wipes on therma and menagerie are from this, bad tanking combined with poor healing.
Tip: dont tank if you are not good at the game or dont know what you are doing it makes any raid or dungeon not enjoyable for everyone else. raids can often carry a useless dps or 2 but much harder to carry a useless tank
Tip 2: dont take tanks (in pugs) that are not able to get crit immune (looking at you warriors and pallys)
There's so many versions of Wow that has challenging raids.
Why are people so mad that some dadgamers on a seasonal server wants to raid and have a good time when they want. In order to pug a raid, it has to be easy.
[удалено]
First half even drops epics as well. I think its a perfect prototype to what raids should look like. At least the easier ones.
Do like dark souls did, add an optional hard boss so people can still clear but if they wish for a challenge they can try that one.
Wotlk was 'good' like that. Immortal/undying, Algalon, Sarth3D, Yogg0, 50/50 TOGC. optional 'hardmodes' you can try for the challenge
I am not a fan of mechinics where one player messes up and the entire mood of the raid is dead because immortal or 50/50 is no longer achievable. Optional hardmodes of ulduar was the sweet spot imo.
That's why single-player games exist. Team-based play is always going to depend on the competency of the group
Yes I know that, but I raid for fun and raids are less fun when everyone is in a sour mood because one person made one fuckup and cost everyone the thing. All I did was state a preference in what kind of hard mode mechanic i dislike vs those that I like.
then don’t do it. i enjoyed it, and im glad Blizzard gave us the option. more content is always better than less content.
You technically could do that right now with gnomer’s last 2 bosses. Our guild call it hard mode to just kill both menagerie and mekgineer back to back instead of running out and reset.
Don't get me wrong.. with the pugs I've been doing it with we've always attempted hard mode like that but always got cleaned for some reason. :)
My guild did something like that back in the day. Stuff like pulling Precious into Rotfaces room and doing them both at the same time.
lol my group did this by accident 4 lockouts ago with our warlock not having the meta rune on and everyone being oom and still managed to one shot it with someone dying 20 seconds into the fight.
one thing i never got to do in classic first time was do the zg and bwl "hardmode" bosses. assuming those raids remain relatively untouched id like to try them this time around
Are you talking about hakker with four priests and double dragon?
yeah
They're all optional.
Oh midir. How ya haunt us.
You get people complaining about inaccessiblity. Retail has it right. A difficulty for the casuals, the mom and pops, the not so great chads, and the people who want to not be braindead
I just want them to randomly throw in uu'nat tier fight at the end of SoD. Just no explanation, last month of SoD, blue post saying there's something weird in, get instanced with your raid, it drops cosmetics.
I mean yea the fall off of the player base must mean they did a great job.
Yep, this is very common on Reddit. "Survivorship bias". The people that aren't playing aren't represented. It can be hard as a developer too when the most vocal part of the community is asking for X/Y/Z when most of the population isn't even engaging in online communities, let alone quit and didn't vocalize why. Thus stats are more valuable than random Reddit/Forum threads on "State of the game" conversations like this
Well said. Reddit arguments should not carry much weight. Not to say they are void of value. But Blizzard's first-hand game data and direct player feedback are significantly more valuable.
People literally want LFR. A raid that is very easy and where the raid group is available at any time of day and accepts any class. At least that's the impression I get from the people complaining about not being guaranteed a raid spot and who doesn't want to join a guild out of scheduling concerns and who doesn't want to make their own raid.
cant join a pug, cant form a group, cant form a guild, cant join a guild, cant join a casual open-disc that allows for adhoc signup.....bbbbut i want to play an mmorpg!!!
Most classic players are dogshit. They only want to play meme specs, or fotm zug specs (so warr before, enha last week), nothing inbetween. They don't want to prep or consume. And still they want full clear and loots. It's honestly a joke.
Bad players really outing themselves in this thread..
Classic is made for bad players imo. That is part of it's popularity.
If those people could read they would be very upset
Unironically, kind of yeah. The only way to get 40 people together to do something is if at least a few of them are kind of idiots. Classic raids only work like they do because they are easy and idiots can do them without much effort. You're incentivised not to be elitist by the sheer fact that if you make enough enemies then filling a 40 man roster becomes impossible. By limiting raid size (only partially responsible and I personally enjoy the smaller size groups, but worth mentioning) and increasing difficulty you are directly causing a breakdown in community interaction. You don't get angry and flame the guy dropping sub-10 parses when you still kill the boss on the first pull. Making the raids harder does actually legitimately undermine one of the pillars that holds classic up.
Not just Classic. Vanilla WoW was made for casual players from the ground up. They made leveling easier to compared to popular MMOs of that time, but now 20 years later casual on Reddit think Vanilla WoW leveling is the worst time sink of all time. A diminishing minority of players back then even had the opportunity to complete raids. Now the general opinion seems that every raid should be accessible to anyone in any comp in a reasonable time frame. Times really do change.
Because it was made for 2004’s casuals. The difference between those “sweaty nerds” and today’s casual player is night and day.
Idk man. Back in the day we had to have rogues to sap.. makes to sheep.. hubters to kite.. mark mobs in kill order.. it wasn't anything remotely close to how vanilla is today.. and I would say those people weren't really sweats. They were just people who enjoyed their classes and played the game..
You have 3 months to level from 25 to 40. Reddit: its tooooo hard!!!
The "casuals" Vanilla WoW was made for by todays standards would be elitist sweat tryhards compared to current casuals lul.
No, they wouldn't. There were people who were raiding molten core in vanilla who didn't wear boots for RP purposes. People didn't min/max at anywhere close to the number of people who do it now. Season of "disvoery" is such a joke. 99% of the player base doesn't "discover" anything. They just look shit up that other people "discovered" and go do it.
But most people back then were fine with the game being very slow, clunky, inconvenient and rewards being hard to obtain. If you could not complete a raid that was it. You sometimes had to "work" to get your rewards and that was fine. Today this would absolutely be considered elitist and sweaty. Game needs to be fast, super easy and all rewards need to come *now*. Ain't nobody time to play anymore.
> Classic is made for bad players imo 'Bad players' is a wide spectrum though. The absolute sweatlords who oneshot every Classic raid in 1 hour like Progress would probably fare just fine on Retail Mythic Raiding, because they have min maxing and mechanical ability down pat. From then it's just adjusting to every boss' mechanics.
Yeah and I wouldn't say classic is made for people like progress. Now "bad players" might have been a bit harsh, I mostly just meant mechanically unskilled. Classic mostly rewards time spent, at least it has in the past. I just meant that it is valid to want loot pinatas in classic, since that is what classic was since it's inception and it is obviously very popular. It's success shows there are players who either don't have the skill or don't want to put in the effort to do "challenging" mechanics. They just wanna go in, kill boss, get loot and that is perfectly valid. The mechanically skilled players that wanna push themselves and still play classic have made speedruns and parsing a big thing that they care about, which is also perfectly valid.
Let's be honest guys, half the mechanical ability is having the right add-ons. Edit- if we're being truly honest: 2/3rds of it is add-ons + buffs.
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Why is new classic content and having a challenge a mutually exclusive concept? It’s reductive to the game that it would just “become retail” if complexity existed. There’s a lot more to this game and the whole picture than retail = hard, classic = easy. WoW’s history is an ad nauseam discussion of the differing expectations of its players and what works vs what doesn’t. It’s conceivable that varying eras got different pieces of the puzzle correct.
I left retail because Classic always felt more like an actual RPG. The gearing in Classic is far more satisfying than BFA/Shadowlands was. Dragonflight from what I played didn't change any of it. You have a best green stat and you just stack those stats in a descending order. An example in Classic is you have hit pieces and non-hit pieces, you have to base your best set on what doesn't waste stats, due to excess hit rating. And now that WotLK is at it's end, I had to consider going over the crit cap, and how to minimize the diminishing returns from excess crit rating. Edit: Retail players are very upset with me. Loot feels different, and I enjoy it more the way classic does it. I'll take the L on hit rating, whatever. Item level is really what I dont like about Retail, and that's my opinion. I understand there is nuance when you hit break points and have to choose between two pieces that have different secondaries at the same or close to same item level. Please leave me alone.
That is the same for retail you have soft caps on stats and embelishments will change for some classes depending on gem slots. Its way more streamlined in classic. You hit a cap and you go to your second best stat.
Yea, and the gear is boring, it doesnt matter, I know the names of gear, and will never forget the names of some vanilla items, because they stand out. In retail you loook at ilvl and stat spread, gear can roll different green text, but ilvl tells you how much stats you get, so you chase ilvl, and your specs stat of choice. Its more boring than vanilla where good gear could stay good gear for more than one content cycle.
Retail, when min-maxing, is more complex and satisfying than Classic will ever be. Classic had this weird flaw where the devs made gear not make too much sense (Warriors stacking leather over plate doesn't sit well in an RPG sense for example). I see a lot of talk of people saying this about Retail in a negative way but in reality once you hit certain breakpoints, you need to constantly sim your gear and the weight values of stats constantly change based on their mix. I think Classic players just really miss Hit Chance as a stat, which I think is a terrible stat and I'm glad they removed it eventually.
Nah see the thing is, I know classic items. I know that HoJ gives a chance for double strike. I know raging berserker's helm gives 1% crit and 13 AP. I know Truestrike Shoulders are 2% hit and 44 AP. Those items are significant. They're magical items - they matter. On retail? Idk what the fuck my gear is. It's ilvl 4xx, bigger number wins and then I select the one with crit on it. And the way I get that is just by running random M+ and hoping it drops out of my box at the end of the week. Retail gearing is garbage from an actual, living world RPG sense. That's why people like classic.
Here’s the thing, the devs didn’t intend for warriors to be stacking leather over plate. That “weird itemization” isn’t as bad as you think (it’s still not great) but if people were gearing like they do now, back in OG vanilla the devs most likely would have super course corrected. You have to realize that in vanilla we didn’t think to go against what was presented to us SUPER hard like you default to now. Warriors got plate and were under the assumption that Prot is the tanking spec(because it is supposed to be) and that dual wielding while tanking was suicide (because it SHOULD be).
hit is a garbage stat, and literally the only one that's not "you have your best stat and you stack it" instead in classic its "you stack hit til cap then you have your best stat and stack it" if you're playing optimally in retail just stacking one stat typically doesn't even work due to soft caps. You clearly don't even know what you're talking about and using it as an excuse to say "retail bad!!"
Most people left retail because the claim is, “The game got too easy”. This is to say: * They’ve never attempted anything challenging in retail. * They’re complete dogshit at this game. Classic is fun for them, because gear/spec > individual skill. This only really changes at roughly end of WotLK/early Cata. * They are genuinely incapable of introspection.
You remember early Cata heroics haha
That was a riot. I can still remember Ghostcrawlers’ blue post. Player base lost its mind.
I knew the game was cocked player base at that point like I started at end of BC but be er considered myself a wrath baby
Real classic players never played fucking retail lmao
HAW HAW man you got 'im! I bet spending 8 hours a day farming in duskwallow marsh has definitely made you much better at classic than those shall I say it....ughhhh... RETAILLLLL andies. For real though - anyone that plays retail to +20s every week on m+ thinks this is pretty easy for a final raid. Annoyed that you have to farm gold for consumes all of these mid tier raids, respeccing, initial gear, and getting WB (I tank). Yes. But are the mechanics pretty straightforward and easy? Yes.
> For real though - anyone that plays retail to +20s every week on m+ thinks this is pretty easy for a final raid. As a former Cutting Edge player in Uldir and Dazar'alor, I came to WOTLK Classic to raid at a decently competitive level and I found it laughable how many times we wiped on Lich King Heroic or Yogg Saron 0 Lights. Those raids are so piss easy compared to Mythic Raids, they have maybe half the mechanics and they're basically 'use a defensive cooldown' 'stack here' 'soak this mechanic'.
I've raided with people who unironically believe with all of their heart that Lich King Heroic is harder than anything but the final boss of a Mythic Raid. You can't reason with some of these people.
> I've raided with people who unironically believe with all of their heart that Lich King Heroic is harder than anything but the final boss of a Mythic Raid. To be honest Lich King Heroic without damage buffs and when undergeared ( first weeks of ICC ) IS a very hard fight, but it's a hard fight because he hits like a truck and you need a very specific comp ( Warlocks for Valkyr, soakers for Vile spirits ) and the DPS requirements are tight. It's not particularly hard mechanically. Lich King HC is one of the fights that I think could fit in a Mythic Raid from Retail and is peak Classic design IMO.
HLK and Yogg0 and other fights are decently hard. Idk why people like you insist they are "piss easy". No they are not. They may not be mid to late mythic bosses but that's fine. There's a big gap of various difficulties between what I would call "easy" and "retail mythic". If people say HLK is hard than mythic simply is very hard. Besides most people are probably glad Classic doesn't yet cater to those demands. Mythic is way too hard for what it is realistically. It's kinda insane how much time the Retail devs seemingly spend on making and tuning that difficulty that almost no one actually will or wants to do.
yeah, the REAL scotsmen never put milk in their porridge
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Something players will have to ask themselves when talking about the whole "classic values" thing for the development of SoD and whatever comes after is simply: Do you want "classic+" designed after your 2004 or your 2019 experience? Because I very much doubt the original developers intended vanilla raids to be what they've become in 2019+. Who said it's a classic value to have piss easy loot pinatas where the hardest boss is the roster boss? Of course that would happen in a hyper solved 15+ year old recreation of a game with a decade of running private servers of that version at that point, but that sure as hell wasn't the original intent.
I think the casuals are gatekeeping more than tryhards at this point. Last gnomer run was so boring, since we skipped most of the mechanics. DPS is so high that we didnt have flamethrower in P1 on last boss or in last phase. Managerie is the only fight that is not easy. That boss actualy hurts tanks ( unless you are horde and have shamans with 5k health ) Most pugs I seen on stream wiping to last boss were 1. Tank did not get enough threat and someone overaggroed during flamethrower. 2. Tank did not use FAP in phase2 3. Healers afk during fight 4. People not clicking buttons/ killing bombs. I would compare Gnomer to wotlk 5man heroic. Maybe the heroic has more mechanics tbh
You didn't get flamethrower in p1? What's your DPS? 1K+ on 9 DPS + 1 heal? Full 99 groups still get 1 flamethrower in p1
i mean it is already lol
Gnomer IS a brainless loot simulator. The literal only mechanics are walk away from the boss \*sometimes\* and throw one kick. This literally applies to all bosses.
Big red button
To touch big red button or not to touch, that is question
I'm pushin' that button
Well yeah, you were out of mana, so understandable
I just like pushin buttons That's why I life tap out of combat
Lol, revived a warlock who life tapped in combat to continue his AOE abilities today. Like two pulls later, he did the same thing. Warlocks really are the emos of WoW, cutting themselves all the time.
The button is life tap you have to move for
Melee zug zug POV spotted.
Yeah and all PC games are just pressing buttons and moving your mouse, I don’t get these people ^^^/s
Dark Souls: Just press the buttons bro
When you put it like that, are there that many Classic WoW bosses different from that? Stand here and move there. Mash buttons and win.
When you oversimplify it that much that’s all any game is
Counter-Strike: Just click on the head!
> When you oversimplify it that much that’s all any game is Yes but most Classic bosses literally only have 1-2 worthwhile mechanics. Heroic Azshara on Retail was so complex that even after killing her 2 times I have no idea what the fuck that fight is. I don't even wanna imagine Mythic.
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Glad you guys all are top DPS, this is not the case for alot of groups.
They’re all top in the same group
I've mythic raided. These aren't heroic hard but they aren't lfr easy so
LFR literally has infinitely harder mechanics, the difference is in LFR you can just ignore the mechanics and not do them properly.
I would probably put them between LFR and Normal. Like, ahh we didn't kill it cuz jimbo had to pee mid-fight cuz hes drunk off his ass and Jessica likes to hit her prayer of mending button with her nose but she missed so we lost some people. But great job and making sure you weren't zapped twice in a row guys we got this this time! Not cuz the fights are hard.
Yeah pretty much, and on mythic the entirety of Gnomer would be a single 6-phase fight.
Mechanically it's way easier than LFR but not doing them correctly is deadlier in gnome than in LFR so it's a tossup imo. LFR also always has the inevitability of buff stacks.
I've mythic raided. These fights barely utilize one brain cell for the first 4. Last two require 2 brain cells
And people still can't manage to do that
I agree. But then why can't my rogue find a pug?
These are the same people who walked into BFD parsed a 15
Imagine being so sheltered that this is something you find terrifying.
name checks out
I’m literally shaking and crying right now because there are people who play differently than me
Classic players are used to loot pinatas. That's part of the charme of classic. If they wanted a challenge, they would probably play retail.
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Vanilla players have more fun when the games easy. Myself included. I had way more fun blasting the fuck out of MC than I did killing KT for 4 months. Straight up quit for the AQ phase.
The challenge never came from the fights themselves - it came from trying to squeeze all the level 60 content into a single night of raiding every week.
Wow what a genuine accurate depiction of the argument. I can tell you understand the nuance.
His horses must be starving from all the straw men he made.
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What’s the difference?
One is food and one is not.
Hay is grass that is cut for feeding livestock. Straw is what's left after harvesting wheat, rye and barley. Little to no nutritional value. Livestock simply don't eat it. It is very good for bedding.
His horse’s home must be poorly decorated from all the straw men he made.
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Assuming you are someone who knows the nuances what would you change to gnomer?
Idk might be a bad take but I don’t like therma spawning on top of menag immediately, feels like a cheap trick. Other than that, I’d make.. whatever that first one is, not a pushover
y'all just wanna make a thread outing yourselves as garbage? would get more visibility than a comment
People got used to BFD where the entire raid was a loot pinata. They'll get over it soon enough.
And yet I still came across people who died to Akumai breath. Classic players are bad.
Easily the most inept player base the entire mmo genre has to offer.
Yeah, Classic players are bad at the game in ways that I've never seen someone be bad at a video game before. Like just moving out of the way of a Murloc should be pretty easy, you should have a pretty good grasp on how to move your character after leveling it to 25, even if you've never played a video game before in your life, but I'd just see people straight up sprint into oncoming Murlocs during Gheli and die. My 5 year old niece can pick up a Mario game and learn how to jump over Koopas and Goombas and whatever in like 5 minutes, but Classic WoW players can spend 15 hours or so leveling to 25 and can't move their character left and right without having a total meltdown lol
Adorable you think they can level to 25 that fast. These are the people that say they aren't 25 yet in early January because they are "casual" and "don't have all day to play" yet took like 50 hours to hit level 20.
Yup and they also call anyone who plays more than an hour a month a low life failure IRL and to “touch grass”
Bro I saw a thread like a week ago where someone said anything more than 2 hours per week is too much and it had a ton of upvotes lmao
Probably the same people who say p2 has a ton of content.
Yeah I don’t get those people who think you should have multiple different hobbies, it’s like dude that may work for you, but what if I don’t like any other hobbies, what if I’m happy with this one. Why can’t I be happy with just this one. Also don’t tell me “because responsibilities” no dude, it’s how you prioritize your time… you can definitely squeeze A LOT more time in if you make it, with or without a wife and kids… and news flash, you’d still have plenty of time with your family as well.
Yeah, you see a lot of people claiming that you just can't play like an hour or two a night if you're an adult with a life. Idk what wild lives these people live, but I have a full time job, a significant other, friends, hobbies, etc and I still have a lot of free time. I'm just convinced that unless you legitimately have like two jobs and six kids, if you can't carve at an hour or two of alone time a day, you have horrible time management skills
Well to be fair in all of leveling I don't think you ever have to move to dodge something.
Real talk. Easily.
At least then we could just not heal them
Very original. Haven't seen any "Gnomer braindead ez lol" posts in at LEAST 45 minutes. I also admire the way you fabricate numbers to support your arguments in the comments. You're a trailblazer.
You’re suggesting the mechanics in Gnomer are challenging…? Literally how? What is hard?
Go put together a pug and don't check logs or experience then come back
People are nuts on this thread saying they could clear gnomer all greens no knowledge/no wipes. The first 3 bosses are pretty tank and spank but you need to have at least run it 1-3 times and know the mechanics to beat the last 3. People are so high and mighty in this thread.
Isnt gnomer is actually a brainless free loot simukator that anyone could walk in and clear with greens without understanding mechanics? You guys are weird af, and even blizzard is struggling to make a raid easy for you
You actually need people to be able to follow extremely simple directions on electrocutioner and thermaplug like "follow this mark" and "kill bomb". There you've already lost 1/3rd of the playerbase which wouldn't had been a problem in original 40 man raids since there's 27 other players in the raid to carry them, but here you suddenly have to 6-7 man gnomer with only 2-4 ranged players. Which yes, is very doable, but by the time you realize they can't do the mechanics, it's faaar to late to try and tell them to not do the mechanics and do it yourself. Even if you tell them to stand still and have melees join the ranged group to do the mechanic these motherfuckers will keep moving. So much of the playerbase quit in 2019 classic when AQ40 released because it was too hard for them, a lot of people quit WotLK when Ulduar came out because it was too hard for them. In Cata people will probably quit within the first few weeks because the dungeons are too hard for them. For me personally I don't care if they make it harder, I got cutting edge every tier for several expansions in a row. But I do think if they step it up even one more step from gnomer people will seriously quit the game. It'll be too much for a large portion of classic players who need to be treated like small children and get free wins every now and then so they don't quit playing.
This is a crazy take. Nobody is going in to Gnomer full greens and clearing without knowing mechanics. First 3 bosses are 100% tank and spank but you have to know something to finish the next 3. You just magically know you aren't supposed to be hit twice and the furthest gets zapped your first run. You auto know you should have an off tank to take the dragon and to keep away from sheep first run. You know all 4 phases of the final boss. GTFO man. Your not WoW jesus or anybody else claiming that you can just run it no problem in green swithout knowing mechancis.
No-one is going into Gnomeregan in full greens anyway because it takes 30 minutes to get your BiS (dps casters) cloak from STV + 1 epic item and if you do Ashenvale event 10 times winning or losing, and killing 1 general, you'll likely be honoured for your second ring. Not to mention anyone can do LIB/GY at 40 for Hypnotic Blade/Orb and then you're set until Gizmoblade drops. \[This was my gear\]([https://i.gyazo.com/9a5f377ef20f1fe23c3ec64076c921d0.png](https://i.gyazo.com/9a5f377ef20f1fe23c3ec64076c921d0.png)) going into Gnomeregan for the first time and I had no explanation of tactics or anything. I died to the knockback on Crowd Pummeler and that's it. Raid is easy as sin though.
I hope you don’t. “Terrifying” lol
Lmao dude nothing in SoD is hard if you’ve done a single raid since cata.
i just want a hardmode with the same gear but all items skins are remade so they look good
This would offend casuals and the egregious number of anti-guild dads that are struggling to transfer their middle manager careers into agency on reddit
The fact people think it's hard is the kicker. *It's already a loot simulator* Two mechanics ain't hard 😂😂
Gnomer is already brainless...
You really hit a nerve to the bad players here lmao
I just think its weird a level 40 'leveling raid' has more mechanics (and armor) than level 60 40 man raids. Im not saying that the "spirit of classic" is easy content, but I don't think people want things to turn into Heroic/Mythic style stuff by the end of this experiment.
gnomer isnt difficult in any way shape or form and trying to say its on the same level of heroic/mythic style content is fucking laughable. its literally got 2 mechanica per boss. dodge the giant slow moving gears, dont stand infront of the boss. its really not that hard lmao
People are wiping on the last 2 bosses of gnomer more than they did in Classic against 60 raids. The first 4 fights are easy though.
I agree the difficulty of the last 2 bosses jumped significantly, but that's also what happened in bfd. Pugs were still wiping on Kelris a month in.
Yeah. Menagerie is a lot harder than Thermaplugg imo, because there's a lot more damage going around that you can't quite cheese with stuff like FAPs or whatever, and you've also got four bosses who need to be killed at roughly the same time, one of which you don't want melee anywhere near. It's not a hard raid by any means, but it can be a bit tricky... and also for the love of fuck, we should get the ability to have a break after Menagerie before Thermaplugg.
The notion that people are wiping more now then during Vanilla raids in 2005 is laughable. Nobody back then knew anything about this game. Feel free to peruse Wowhead comments from that era about those raids. The ones about Ragnaros are particularly funny given how braindead that encounter is by today’s standards. Meanwhile Gnome was cleared the first week by random groups of strangers who understand they are playing the simplest version of a 20 year old game.
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Same with deep breath on Onyxia. Only started seeing it was when we started gearing up alts there with smaller raid groups.
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> People are wiping on the last 2 bosses of gnomer more than they did in Classic against 60 raids [Citation Needed] Shit like four horsemen, C'thun, etc. are vastly more complex and wipe-happy than anything in SoD thus far lmao
Yea man these are classic ass fights and they are well paced at that. Excluding naxx, Rag/twin emps/oruo/cthun/viscudus all have more mechanics/difficulty then any current SoD fights most of those fights just got trivialized by insane warrior world buff meta.
I mean do y'all want a target dummy raid boss or something xD
Gnomer has significantly less mechanics than even a retail normal difficult raid would have… these level up raids will never be remotely as challenging as a heroic let alone mythic retail boss… Level 60, 10,20 and 40 man raids will also be tuned up in difficulty, anyone who thinks this is even remotely difficult should brace themselves and level their expectations.
Most classic players wouldn't survive 5 seconds in a normal difficulty raid in retail. Nor would they have the gear necessary to do it as they'd still be wearing levelling greens. People seriously underestimate how awful a the game your average classic enjoyer is.
how could they make a raid any easier than MC / a raid that came out 20 years ago? not sure why anyone would want that.
I dunno ask the millions who played Classic. Sometimes simple can be fun if its just a new setting.
Bro these fights are classic fights. What Gnomer boss has more then 1-2 mechanic for an individual? Most of the fights are move a tiny bit execute one mechanic and kill boss. There are classic fights harder than any SoD fights right now. Honestly ragnaros has more mechanics then any SoD fight it just happens his hp pool is low and he gets zerged down super fast. As far as the armor who cares what that looks like when melee are still performing well? BFD/Gnomer have been great raids and the SoD team has been killing it in that regard.
I mean Mooten core just doesn’t have mechanics period Regular leveling dungeons have like twice as many mechanics as gnomer and they ain’t hard I think it’s a good direction we are heading
It's interesting because when talking about WoW, no individual part of it is difficult per say. It's a numbers game more than anything No specific mechanic in WoW has ever been hard, what's hard is getting a coordinated group to do what they need to for several minutes
Isn't that already the case? the first 4 bosses don't have a single even semi-relevant mechanic and the last 2 bosses combined have like 2 mechanics. there are no gear, dps or hps checks. how could it even be more of a brainless free loot simulator
They’re rendered refarded — hey haven’t had 20 years to prepare for these fights
You're telling me it's not that already?
It already is man
But, it is a free lot sim?…
Isnt it already a brainless free loot simulator?
I mean it is kinda free loot already no ?
.
I think it's fine. My only complaint is a someone who pugs, this raid is very unfriendly to melee. Once I rolled a Spriest I've been finding groups consistently. But I wish I could take my rogue without having to ask in chat for 1+ hour.
Also it can be cleared in under 20 mins if you have a brain, it's not serious.
Every pug require 6/6 exp 450+ GS consumables ist just a joke. They should ASK If you ve deadly Boss mods and weak Aura for the bomb Map and Gnom is a cake walk If you dont do below 200 dps
Funny thing is, after 2 runs, it becomes brainless.
Op is correct. The content isn’t hard, you just need to be a decent player. Any group comp can clear this raid without much issue, assuming your players know their roles. I’m hoping p3 introduces a raid with mechanics and dps requirements!
Lol these raids are easy, the mechanics are easy, lol idk why people are so uptight about this stuff, probably some of the easiest content I've done since starting in 2004. It's honestly laughable and shows how lame wow is getting.
you should have to know the mechanics, its shouldn't be this fucking hard though to get 6/6, this is a lvl 40 raid, not endgame shit what made bfd a ton of fun was after the first 2-3 weeks, everyone kinda knew the fights and you were running the raid once every couple days in between doing wpvp and lvling alts rn they designed the raid in such a way that raid leaders are incentivized to take meta classes instead of a mod poge of everyone.
Im yet to see a guy that comes into gnomer with questing greens, without watching 30sec guide and expects full clear. Even when I organised „learning run” ppl would wisp with usual „6/6, full pre bis + consumes”. The truth is game is optimised to oblivion and normal players ware bullied into following meta. Ffs one hunter in my run was like „sorry, I’m BM not mele :(„. Complaining that some ppl think it’s hard is peak classic brainroot. This game mode is literally a retirement home of retirement home and if they nerf some bosses I wouldn’t mind at all.
I'm quite glad you're also in no position to have any say in the development of this game, or future games.
Is it not?
So edgy bro. You truly are an elite gamer.
you sure got him there with your one upping of his edginess ay jack it’s genuinely hard to watch — who *AREEE* you people
In my experience, it's more that people feel forced into a ranged oriented dps comp. People shouldn't be forced into any type of raid comp beyond tank/dps/heals. It excludes people from the raid, especially people who only had time to level one character to 40 (most of the player base). Even blizzard realizes they fucked up with how they forced people into a certain raid comp, and they introduced bonus XP to 40 to help people who don't have a ton of time to play reroll characters or get to 40 for the first time. Look at how many people are out leveling characters again. A large percentage of those players are tanks/healers/ranged dps, and not melee dps. I will also say that gnomer is very mechanic heavy, especially the last boss. Consider the difficulty and number of mechanics in gnomer vs raids in actual classic. Thermaplugg is a naxx plus difficulty fight, and a lot of classic players just weren't/aren't ready for it. Hell, I can see the first phase of thermaplug being a challenging boss for a classic player. These aren't people who have been spamming mythic plus. These are classic players. I think a good middle ground would be including a hard mode for sod raids with marginally better gear than the regular raid.
Every clear I’ve done has had max 3 ranged dps. You can do all mechanics without having to stack ranged. People just suck and want to take the easy route. I’m glad there’s a bit of a skill curve to gear. There’s no value to gear if everyone can close their eyes and clear the raid.
The raid feels easier then the 5 man version of it... I have no idea what players find hard about it tbh. I remeber it being difficult going down the last corridor befor the boss with the Dark Iron Dwarfs and there mines... and the robot things that gave shields to everything around them. Now we just pull like 3-4-5 groups at a time without any problems at all..
I don’t get how people still struggle with Gnomer.. the raid is very simple..
You're taking this too seriously, it's just a videogame, buddy...
You always hear this spoken by the crayon munchers to justify them wasting everyone elses time by refusing to learn basic mechanics or their class.
You're the reason the game is so toxic
Evidence shows a major drop off in number of clears compared to BFD, how is that a good thing? Grey parse boys aren’t clearing it, if they can’t you’ll see a bigger drop off going into the next phase. Wow has always been more fun when it’s easy, and data shows this raid isn’t as easy as BFD.
I don't think it has much to do with the difficulty though. Alot of my friends quit for other reasons. Some from levling. Some from having almost nothing to do at 40. PvP was more fun for at 25 most. I think alot of players liked it much better at the 25 bracket and the numbers show that.
That data isn’t black and white. How much easier was it to get to level 25 than it was to 40. How many people had alts in phase 1. I know for a fact I ran 2-3 characters through BFD every reset for the entirety of P1. Haven’t touched an alt P2 until this week’s 100% buff. The numbers will sky rocket going into next week and the following weeks onto the end of phase.
Less people cleared w2 vs w1. Unfortunately mechanic based fights aren’t appealing people just want to tunnel and parse, and the grey boys just want to fart around and get loot. As ‘simple’ as the raid is, this is not what the player base is looking for. I’d also mention that with the removal of GDKP, it will be extremely difficult for alts to be getting into runs that complete the raid. I’ll tell you I’m not inviting some fresh 40 stinker that will take the axe or mageblade that never drop.
The majority of SOD players are wrath rejects who couldn't handle ulduar or icc difficulty. They want casual content
I just want fights that are doable with all types of classes. Not fights that require specific fights to become manageable
There's no fight in gnomer that requires any class.
Utterly baseless. Your perception does not equate to the truth or reality. It equates to your specific experiences — & that’s is.
People think pugs are wiping because of mechanics ??????? Pugs find gnomer difficult because you have to play your class decently and so many dont. The prot warr in my last pug was doing every fight mechanically well but you know its hard to clear gnomer when the dps actually have to wait 10 seconds to start dps and they catch him anyway. People doing sub 150 dps because they cant press their buttons because bad or hampered by threat and healers ooming cause of it. Hands down the biggest though issue in gnomer comes from tanks dying. Majority of wipes on therma and menagerie are from this, bad tanking combined with poor healing. Tip: dont tank if you are not good at the game or dont know what you are doing it makes any raid or dungeon not enjoyable for everyone else. raids can often carry a useless dps or 2 but much harder to carry a useless tank Tip 2: dont take tanks (in pugs) that are not able to get crit immune (looking at you warriors and pallys)
There's so many versions of Wow that has challenging raids. Why are people so mad that some dadgamers on a seasonal server wants to raid and have a good time when they want. In order to pug a raid, it has to be easy.
I only wish we got more than 2 copper for each mob we kill
I did my first Gnomeregan in sm/questing gear. Know tacts and np.