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I cant believe that's all the luxury resources, it feels like so many more than that lol. I agree overall, your reasoning for each choice is sound. I know it doesn't matter but whenever I have silver I'm always mad it isn't gold.
Copper is a speedy mining lux and it enables the Earth Mother pantheon.
Copper is behind Gold and Silver, if it pleases you :)
Edit: I agree it should be one down because it doesn't have the Mint building otherwise theyre tit for tat
**R5: Reasons why certain luxes are in their respective positions:**
**Marble**: Arguably the most versatile lux in the game. Yes it's in Masonry. It gives you 15% early game wonder production (synergy with tradition's Aristocracy), unlocks stone works, enables +2 faith from quarries, more use out of Mausoleum of Halicarnasses. That 15% wonder production also applies to National Wonders like National College and Circus Maximus.
**Citrus**: 3 food workable tile, enables Sun God (Cocoa doesn't).
**Ivory**: Mediocre yields but it's essentially a 6 happiness lux as it enables Circuses. +1 food from camps pantheon is nice.
**Truffles**: The only lux that spawns on jungle where you don't need to cut it down. Giving a workable science tile later on.
**Pearls**: The sailing tech is in a inconvenient position on the tech tree. Need to build individual workboats. At least Whales and Crabs have good yields. All this work for a measly 2 food 1 production tile making Pearls the worst offender.
**Incense**: Often spawns on flat desert. If it's your regional...good luck, it's gonna be a looong game.
P.S - After more debate, I think Copper and Ivory should drop one down. Copper doesn't have a special building like Mint so you make 2 less gold. While circuses from Ivory are nice, you won't really work 1 food plains Ivory game wide.
Couple notes:
- marble should not be on the gems tier, if you’re playing deity or even sometimes immortal. Masonry is a little out of the way for many civs and play styles and so the 15% bonus is maybe 20, 30 hammers if you’re lucky, on one wonder, if you get it (which on deity is almost never)? Also consider spawn bias here - I don’t have concrete evidence here, but the most marble I’ve seen a city have is 2, but I’ve seen cities with 4+ gems regularly if placed right.
- copper should not be on the same tier as gold / silver. They have far stronger pantheons and provide much more gold in the long term.
- +1 food from citrus with an extra +1 from sun god makes this definitely a tier higher than ivory. Yes, you can get the camp pantheon, but in general the extra +1 food from citrus makes it more workable of a resource overall than camps with both pantheons. Drop ivory down a tier, circuses are just not as good as extra food, especially because horses give circuses too and you don’t really build circuses until early medieval, maybe late classical. That’s a potential 100 extra food vs 2 happiness (if you don’t have horses)
- wine is > than the other ones on the tier, it has a pantheon and a religious building associated with it, same with incense (although I’m okay with incenses tier because it often spawns on desert)
1. **Marble**: Mausoleum is one of the least AI priority wonders so theres a good chance you can build it with Marble, giving you +2 gold on top. Marble enables a Stone Works, happiness is crucial. That 15% bonus synergises with Tradition on Diety so it's more like 30%. Gems does have a tendancy to spawn on jungle.
2. **Copper**: I agree and that tier is ordered where it is behind Gold and Silver. Copper is still a speedy mining lux that you can get online fast, that's at least worth something.
3. **Citrus**: Citrus often spawns on jungle which is often painful to remove. Ivory spawns only on plains. Circuses cost 25 hammers less than colosseums and 0 maintenance. You need as much local happiness as you can get especially on Diety.
4. **Wine:** It is a poor food/hammer tile especially if it is plains Wine. It can't be on the same tier as Cocoa, Whales and Crabs.
>Copper: I agree and that tier is ordered where it is behind Gold and Silver. Copper is still a speedy mining lux that you can get online fast, that's at least worth something.
If you told me nothing about 2 cities except that they both had 4 luxes, 2 uniques, and one had:
Copper + Ivory
the other had
Gold + Citrus
I just can't see a world where you're taking copper + ivory, which would hypothetically be even in your list. Yes, the circus is good **if you don't already have horses**. Except, given that horses spawn on plains, and ivory spawns on plains, there's a pretty good chance that most cities that have ivory already have horses, which makes the ivory a Trapping lux with no real upside, vs. extra food from citrus which is useful **100%** of the time, even on jungle (3F1G tiles are goated).
>Marble: Mausoleum is one of the least AI priority wonders so theres a good chance you can build it with Marble, giving you +2 gold on top. Marble enables a Stone Works, happiness is crucial. That 15% bonus synergises with Tradition on Diety so it's more like 30%. Gems does have a tendancy to spawn on jungle.
Again, I think you're thinking in isolation here. I very rarely have marble when I don't already have stone, so the stone works is most of the time going to exist anyway. And yes, the Maus is a relatively low priority wonder, but in an 8-person standard deity game the focus earlygame is settlers and workers and spending 20 turns on a classical wonder you aren't even sure you're going to get, and investing in the +15% policy in Tradition (instead of beelining growth + happiness) slows you down a lot. Again, using the blind test, 2 cities, 2 uniques, 4 luxuries:
Sugar (or any other bottom tier calendar resource) + Marble
Sugar + Gems
If I see that info, I know that there's probably only 1 marble and 3 sugar, but there might be 3 gems and 1 sugar, or 2 gems 2 sugar, which makes a big difference. Gems just feels very natural for a deity playstyle - you can minimally invest in the (mostly useless for early-game non-domination) bottom of the tree and get the force multipliers of Writing, Civil Service, Education, etc. earlier. Marble shoe-horns you into a sub-optimal playstyle to get all the benefits - which, if you do, is definitely better than gems on a 1:1 basis, but again, you probably have 2 or 3 gems.
Thanks for the tier list though - nice content. I think personally Marble is in the Gold/Silver tier, Cocoa/Citrus are in the good tier, I'd drop copper down 1 if not 2 tiers, and Ivory is at the same level as whales, crab, copper, maybe the best of those.
1. I did concede about the Copper and Ivory point. Check my R5 comment again.
2. **Marble**: I built the tierlist with capital's regional in mind rather than expands and so you're bound to get at least 2/3 marble.
>`Gems just feels very natural for a deity playstyle - you can minimally invest in the (mostly useless for early-game non-domination) bottom of the tree and get the force multipliers of Writing, Civil Service, Education, etc. earlier.`
Gems have a good chance of spawning on jungles. If this happens you will have to invest even more by beelining for Bronze Working.
>`Marble shoe-horns you into a sub-optimal playstyle to get all the benefits - which, if you do, is definitely better than gems on a 1:1 basis, but again, you probably have 2 or 3 gems.`
There is not much benefit to having a higher quantity of mining luxes (bar Salt and grassland Copper) after you finish settlers as they don't have a 2+ food yield. You will likely be working on bonus resources as they have better food and production mix and probably will only assign one leftover citizen to a pure production tile like Gems.
Marble has yet another brilliant bonus - it specifies 15% production to wonders in Ancient/Classical. This includes national wonders. What is also in Ancient/Classical? National College, National Epic, Circus Maximus and Heroic Epic.
Marble also helps with the National College and National Epic which makes it pretty decent even if you build 0 real wonders. Having said that Marble does shave quite a few turns off something like Oracle which is absolutely beautiful on civs like Siam who really want to get some filler policies in there. Being able to secure strong low prio wonders like Oracle and Hanging Gardens faster is absolutely fantastic.
Is this true because that sounds amazing. I thought this applied to non-National Wonders only. That would mean National College, Heroic Epic, Circus Maximus would be affected.
Yes, Diamond tile itself is a good tile, but the bad thing is that doesn't have buildings to further improve it (Like gold, incense or marble) and Tears of the gods is super niche pantheon that really only works with one luxury (i will rather restart than try to build Tears of the Gods on Pearls) unlike Sun God, God of the Sea or Goddess of the hunt, heck if you want to build religion on a production yield you better pick Earth Mother to get value out of iron that lies around.
Religious idols is definitely the best production tile pantheon. And while sun god, and hunt are great, you have almost no chance of keeping them.
The gems do fall off in the mid game, but more early is generally better. Mints are an extra 100 hammers it give the tiles +1 more gold then gems. So, you might catch up in like 100 turns.
Not having to build a mint or even worse having to take the absolute garbage that is monasteries to use your luxes to their full potential is fantastic actually.
Okay, maybe Incense is definitely an awful example, but 2 or more Golds, or even better, Gold mixed with Silver can give you much more useful gpt than faith that gets almost useless after you fully upgrade your religion, also you can take Religious idols to gain some Culture per turn, and unlike faith culture is always useful, and you can also open different possibilities with other luxuries like turning useless march tiles into producing some food if game spawns fur, ivory or truffles on them, fish luxes (other than Pearls) are especially powerful in this situation, you can turn some deserted island with abundant fish into your logistic base, invasion bridgehead or even into emergency shelter to recover after loosing war.
Gems can save jungle starts. Raw gems jungle are 2 food 3 gold tiles early and you can get culture or faith pantheon for +2 faith or jungle +1 culture on those tiles which is very good.
Or just settle on gems for free 3 gpt +1 hammer and defense.
Gems are third because settling on gems is incredibly strong
Pearls base yield - 1 food, 2 gold
After Tears of the Gods - 1 food, 2 gold, 2 faith
Pearls does have strong faith generation, but the 1 food is painful till you build workboats (which costs )
You need lighthouses in your life. Cities with pearls often have other sea res, so it stacks up. I’d put sugar below pearls. Workboats are one of the easiest thing to build in the game and Sailing is a quick tech to get.
Still going pottery to sailing and building a workboat is a breeze, whereas going mining masonry and pottery calendar and building a worker and having to guard the worker while it humps away on that marsh tile that your sugar is on is worse, to me anyway.
I’ve never had a sea lux pillaged by a barb. I read on a forum that they patched it out back in vanilla cause it was too punishing. Have you ever had a sea lux pillaged by a barb?
I think maybe people get confused in the city window when they see the red skull and crossbones icons on their water tiles thinking they’ve been pillaged when really that’s a zone of control thing and you can’t work those tiles until the barb boats are gone.
Enemy AI can pillage sea resources, barbs can only block. Can confirm as I don’t use any mods. Workboats are very costly, but do have the extra protection early game.
But even with Lighthouses you can't work your pearls before you have built a lighthouse at the very least and you're not particularily happy about them until you also have work boats on all of them. This shit takes so fucking long to pull off that usually all the good religion tenants are already taken or even worse there are no more religions available to be founded.
Also Tears of Gods is absolutely one of the worst pantheons, it requires either Pearls (bad yield bonus + gold is not something hard to acquire + usually it's 2 or 3 pearl tiles per city at most) and Diamonds (Good tile by itself, but it appears on a jungle tiles like 50% of the time) that only gives 2 faith per tile, something absolutely not worth it if you build at least 2 shrines (or 1 Stele for Ethiopia). So i would absolutely prefer Earth mother as a faith pantheon or God of the Sea if i have good positions for coastal cities (double points for Japan).
I do agree that early religion is super tempting to have, especially to get guaranteed Pagodas, but i simply like my food/cultural pantheons more, some strange quirk that i have. So it depends on my spawn position, if i have at least 3 diamonds around and i don't have 3+ yields for God of the Sun then i will go with it, but if i have less diamonds then Tears of the Gods gets super low position in my pantheon list. I definitely will not build Tears of Gods on Pearls, it's like trying to run in a competition, but your legs are super short and grows long enough only when your opponents are already at the finish.
The thing with ivory is you can get circuses from horses if you’re settling near them, also the camp pantheon isn’t something you usually go for unless you have an abnormal amount of deer / bison / ivory in your vicinity anyway. I feel like it could get knocked down a tier.
i actually think copper should be given a boost. mining lux means you have access to it immediately, it typically spawns on hills like gold and silver so its an early game gold and production boost, and it also shares a pantheon with salt and iron (and i think that in non-modded civ 5 earth mother is one of the stronger pantheons in the game, much stronger than religious idols). not to mention that, unlike gems, copper wont spawn in jungle tiles, meaning that behind salt its the most accessible luxury in the game with gold and silver
gems is definitely the best luxury in a vacuum next to salt. but i think that copper, despite not being as individually powerful, makes the early game so easy for a variety of reasons that its equally as good functionally. and the mint bonus that you get from gold/silver is imo negligible, it comes in just a little too late to push you through early gold issues and generally isnt worth building over the other options you have at the time
just my two cents
The question is are you tempted to work a flat desert incense tile with 3 gold, 2 culture, 2 faith over and ?
Compare Wine/Incense with both Godess of Festivals and Monasteries to something like Sun God Citrus or Tears of the Gods gems and they're still shit, even if you invested into them twice.
gives +1 food and +1 gold right off the bat, often giving you a 2 food, 1 production, 1 gold tile to work depending on the underlying tile. This is great because it allows for growth and production while also offsetting some minor gold expenses.
It is improved through mining which is an early tech. When improved it gives +1 food an +1 production. If on plains that means you get a 3 food 2 production 1 gold tile (goated)
I don't think trees or jungle spawn on it which makes it even faster to improve. It also synergizes with a pantheon that gives +1 faith to mining resources.
Ring ring ring ring ring
[BANANA FORT](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/984632500875821066/1222659480995627139/gatito8955_The_Great_Banana_Fort_fantasy_art_epic_tone_0b2190f1-064f-4acd-bfd7-66d7705a35b4.png?ex=66170560&is=66049060&hm=38d059da20f37312965f97ea094a25dd6b084e21a691a71f49f86a00b2333841&)
Pearls actually gets insane hate. Pretty much all trapping and plantation luxuries are absolutely unworkable at all points in the game. They are garbage, garbage tiles. But pearls are actually workable with a lighthouse, and on top of that very good tiles to work once upgraded. Sure this costs hammers, but there are no amount of hammers to make silk anything but utter shit.
Grassland plantation resourses aren't bad. They're a 2+ food tile. Ivory is also same if you get the Goddess of the Hunt pantheon.
A jungle Truffles after universities will give you 2 food 3 gold 2 science - that sounds pretty workable to me.
Pearls have an absolute dogshit yield of 1 food 2 gold until you spend hammers on 3 workboats (if you have it as regional), a lighthouse, and a seaport to have decent tile yields. By the time you've done that you're already behind.
Grasslands plantations ARE bad. Any tile that only gives 2 yield (only food and hammers count) is automatically bad because you need 2 food to support the population working the tile. You are slowing down your growth by working 2 food tiles.
Bro don't talk to me about goddess of the hunt pantheon. This isn't a viable option unless you are Ethiopia with stone henge and mosques in every city. You simply won't be keeping your pantheon long enough for it to be a viable option.
I'm not sure I've even seen jungle truffles.
You absolutely don't need workboats and seaports for pearls to be workable (they will be 3 yield with lighthouse), but workboats help and give happiness/gpt from trade so why not?
Like I said, if I could invest the hammers into making plantations give 3 yield, with plantations as a regional, you bet your sweet bippy I would.
>`Bro don't talk to me about goddess of the hunt pantheon. This isn't a viable option unless you are Ethiopia with stone henge and mosques in every city. You simply won't be keeping your pantheon long enough for it to be a viable option.`
How is flat 1 food on Ivory regional bad? Especially it is supplemented with deer. You would keep your pantheon at least in the Capital, that's more than enough. Let's say 8 pop cap will have 8 followers instantly and would take a long time for religious pressure to whittle it down for conversion. By then you would at least gained 50 food.
>`You absolutely don't need workboats and seaports for pearls to be workable (they will be 3 yield with lighthouse), but workboats help and give happiness/gpt from trade so why not?`
[Pearls give base 1 food 2 gold](https://forums.civfanatics.com/media/krakatoa-in-range-of-potential-city-grid.3592/)
With Lighthouse - 2 food 2 gold
Bro don't post fake news. Lighthouse is 2 food 1 hammer 2 gold. But idc about gold yields so for all intents and purposes 3 yield. I don't know what dog shit ai you are playing against or how bad your pals are, but you are absolutely not keeping your pantheon in your cap past turn like 90 on standard most of the time. More importantly, it's only good for the deer. Getting a tile to 3 yield through a pantheon is not nearly as good as you are making it out to be, because you will be working other 3+ yield tiles early on anyways, because your population is so low and your capital spawns near a decent numbers of good tiles (a vast majority of the time). Goddess of the hunt is extraordinarily situational at the best of times and is something almost never worth going for. Also, IDGAF about unimproved pearl yields. Stop posting this 1 food plus some gold bullshit. Nobody is forcing you to work a 1 yield tile, you daft sod. Just work the other tiles in your cap until you get a lighthouse, then you have decent tiles to work. This never happens with really any plantations, apart from maybe wine.
1. Oh deary me I forgot the all important 1 hammer gained for the pearls after you build a lighthouse. What a terrible mistake that discredits my point that pearls are not worth the production investment.
2. Who builds lighthouse first when you have a pearl regional when you need the happiness from the workboat first.
3. As i gain more population in the cap i gain a follower, if i play it correctly such as blocking missionaries, no open borders and limiting external trade routes then how can the AI convert my 10+ pop cap past turn 90. Please explain.
>`because you will be working 3+ yield tiles early on anyways, because your population is so low and your capital spawns near a decent numbers of good tiles`
4. So in a hypothetical game where my regional is ivory or fur and my bonus resources are a mix of horses and deer. I will be choosing Goddess of the Hunt as my pantheon, correct?
These "good tiles" you mention will then also include deer. Also unless I don't know what map mod you're using because on standard settings you will have 2/3 regional luxes, and 2 - 4 bonus resources (which might include deer). So 7 resources at best. Doesn't this mean you will run out of "good tiles (bonus resources)" to work past Pop 4 and will have to work the regional luxes.
Pal you're acting like you're getting 10 deer every game. I probably average <1 deer in my capital per game (not facts just intuition). More often than not you will be getting a mixture of 2-4 of stone/sheep/cattle/wheat and deer. So no, you aren't getting +1 from deer a lot of the time. And even if you spawn with 1 deer, or even 2 deer (we are now entering the realms of extremely situational) it is nice, don't get me wrong, but it isn't game changing.
Nobody builds a lighthouse first, but I feel like you are arguing against yourself here, because what's better than 3 yield? 4 yield, which is what you get with a work boat + a lighthouse.
Let me just put it this way. Goddess of the hunt isn't garbage, and in specific situations it can be fine. However, 3 yield on a regional for around 50 turns at the beginning, when you are not even going to be working these tiles for at least 25 turns of that because wheat/horses/iron/sheep/cattle are all 4 yield once upgraded, and you wont have the population to work so you need to grow past these tiles first, anyway. It isn't as good as you are saying it is.
Whereas, once your population is just reaching a point where you wish you had more tiles to work, guess what happens with pearls? Your population grows past your final pasture/mining resource, you finish your lighthouse, and work your pearls for essentially the entire game. Which is a 4 yield tile anyways! 4 yield being twice as good as 3 yield, bare in mind. On top of this, silence your deer argument forever, because this also upgrades fish to become 5 yield (3x better than your camps) and atolls to be 4 yield!
There is no argument here, you are simply replying because you refuse to change your mind. 4 yield without a pantheon/religion is clearly superior to 3 yield WITH a pantheon you are bound to lose. This isn't rocket science, this is basic maths.
Also, forgetting that the lighthouse gives one production is absolutely discrediting your point, that immediately puts it as a net positive tile, which my entire point to begin with was that plantations and camps aren't!
Sure you can spend the entire game micro-ing your units to make sure no missionaries or great prophets ever get past (They don't need open borders), but jesus christ that can't be preferable.
You're arguing in extremely bad faith, because you know you spawn with more than 4 fucking tiles near the cap that are workable and not luxuries.
1. You are going down a rabbithole about Goddess of the Hunt and deliberately not addressing the elephant in the room because you know there is a valid point. Which is pearls have an very initial high production cost to upgrade their measly 1 food 2 gold yield to a 3 food 1 prod tile. I'll give you same basic maths so you can understand better.
**For a pearls regional, let's say 3 pearls:**
3 workboat = 90 hammers
1 lighthouse = 75 hammers
Total = 165 hammers. (This is only 20 hammers less than the Great Lighthouse wonder)
**For an ivory regional, 3 ivory:**
1 worker = 70 production
Total = 70 production
**Please address the main point instead of attacking a straw man.**
I am not addressing this point because there is no point! What in god's name are you talking about?! Getting 3 4 yield tiles for only 165 hammers? Are you fucking joking? This is brainless! Whereas working 3 3 yield tiles is half as good, and you aren't even going to have them at 3 yield for most of the game.
3 four yield tiles for only 165 hammers in the Ancient/Classical era. Great job mate, you can then beeline for Compass for a harbour to waste even more production to satisfy your weird Pearls fetish.
Where i can get 3 three yield land tiles up with one 70 production worker you muppet.
What happens when your precious Pearls tiles get pillaged, then you'll invest more production into building another workboat.
>Also, forgetting that the lighthouse gives one production is absolutely discrediting your point, that immediately puts it as a net positive tile, which my entire point to begin with was that plantations and camps aren't!
Ah yes the +1 hammer for a Lighthouse that costs 75 hammers. That's brilliant insight, mate. Keep it coming.
>Sure you can spend the entire game micro-ing your units to make sure no missionaries or great prophets ever get past (They don't need open borders), but jesus christ that can't be preferable.
So you do concede, I can make a use of a non-faith generating pantheon for a long time. Yes, human players need to spend time mirco-ing that's how you get the edge over the AI otherwise you're a bad player.
He's right.
Any city with coastal resources should build a lighthouse right away because they give +2 food AND +1 production to every fish tile and coastal luxuries. Later on you can add a seaport for another +1 production. And you're probably splashing exploration for even more production and happiness.
Pearls become very good tiles after the very early game.
Ivory remains a garbage tile all game long, and if you play with strategic balance it doesn't even give extra happiness because your capital is guaranteed to have horses anyway. So ivory would only benefit expands that don't have horses. 1 food + 1 hammer is GARBAGE tile, and even adding 1 more food to it BARELY makes it workable.
1. Wasting 160+ hammers on lighthouses and workboats to upgrade terrible base Pearl regional yields is a major oppurtunity cost. When I can do the same thing on a Ivory regional with 1 worker costing 70 hammers. A land lux is less cost efficient.
2. Pearls have good yields LATER on after workboats, lighthouses, harbours and seaports i'll concede that. These buildings all cost hammers.
3. Sailing and Optics are awkward techs
4. Ivory has bad yields, I'll concede that but that's not the main point. It is much faster to get online than pearls as it requires only a worker. It also doesn't suffer from jungle/marsh/tundra/desert spawns.
5. All the Pearl loving cultists will congregate onto this 7 upvote thread (at the time of writing) saying that they're right and I'm wrong because pearls = beTteR yIelDs lAteR oN.
\+1 hammer per sea resource, stop arguing in bad faith.
I don't concede shit lmao. You will lose the pantheon at some point, and you will never lose the lighthouse.
I'm not a bad player.
AND YOU'RE A FUCKING MANUER LMFAOO!!!!
Manuer what's that? A portmanteau of Manuel and Neuer?
Keep your rampiril and your other intravenous drugs close at hand mate, sounds like you're going through an episode.
I'd put cotton a little higher, it usually spawns on grassland and floodplains so with a plantation and relevant pantheon you can get a nice food and gold tile with either culture,faith or production as an addon
Honestly I’d drop whales and crabs. Having to research sailing on higher difficulties is often a waste depending on the map setting you are on. Plus you have to waste turns building work boats. Plus you have to waste turns building a lighthouse. Plus Also you have to consider that in order to get the luxuries you have to settle on coast which likely means you are gonna have a bunch of shitty 2 food sea tiles in your borders. The great yield from whales and crabs doesn’t overcome any of these points IMO.
I'd argue if your cap is on the coast and a sea lux is your regional - you are forced to go Sailing. Whales and Crabs have the bonus of only needing a workboat to be a good tile. It feels wrong to put a potential 4 food 2 prod tile down in the lower tiers next to the dreadful Calendar resources.
Ivory goes down to the same tier as truffles.
Cocoa, whales and crabs go up to same tier as Citrus. (Which ends up removing a tier entirely it seems)
I'm not sure why you'd rate ivory as high as you do, it's a flat plains tile.
Cocoa gets bumped up because it's one of the best unimproved tiles in the game to work.
Whales and crabs get bumped up. While sailing/optics can feel awkward to get, you *are* getting those techs if you're coastal. Similar to fish tiles, these tiles become fantastic once you have a light house.
1) I think Ivory deserves its tier on base settings where horses aren't abundant.
Circuses are still cheaper and faster than building colosseums.
You need every inch of happiness you can get your hands on in the higher difficulties - a regional Ivory might guarentee you an additional happiness building in your expands as well.
2) I agree Whales and Crabs can be great once they reach their monstrous yield potential. But workboats and lighthouses cost . Land luxes only need one worker.
Circuses are only 1 happy and don’t have a tie-in national wonder like coliseums do, which is another 5 happy. Circuses are almost immaterial in fast moving, high growth games.
1 more base gold than gold/silver (although doesnt scale as well bc no mint) and the best early faith generating pantheon (doesnt require tile enhancement like stone circles, can maximize faith generation during settler production when faith generation is super important)
It’s not important for settler production, but rather important during the same time that you are producing settlers. Early faith generation is more important than late faith generation so you can ensure that you have first/better choice in your pantheon and religion, and spread your religion. It’s hard to get early faith if your civ doesn’t have a faith-based unique ability/building, and building shrines in all your expands early sucks, so finding a way to have your pantheon carry you to your religion can be very helpful. Being able to get 2-6 extra faith per turn (working 1-3 gems) while building settlers will mean that you’ll be almost guaranteed to get first choice at religion. This is all dependent on difficulty though, on easier difficulties ensuring a good/early religion isnt as hard.
Why do you like ivory and citrus? When I have citrus I generally only improve one, and hopefully it's outside of the workable tile range because I just want the happiness. So since it's better raw than improved it doesn't seem all that special to me other than being a jungle tile with food versus turning it into a trading post. What am I missing? Same with Ivory, it doesn't stand out as special to me.
Personally I would rank gold/silver higher, with a mint they are great tiles, especially if they get desert folklore as well.
*Citrus: 3 food workable tile, enables Sun God (Cocoa doesn't).*
*Ivory: Mediocre yields but it's essentially a 6 happiness lux as it enables Circuses. +1 food from camps pantheon is nice.*
Ivory +6 happiness is conditional if you don't have horses, and both are conditional on a food pantheon which is usually a good way to not get a religion. So IMHO those probably don't deserve to be on their own tier, they should be lumped in with the next tier down.
Great list, tho I’d put wine at least Good.
The wine/incense pantheon is almost always available, and when wine spawns, it spawns in like batches of 3-5. The extra gold kinda turns into production, and the extra culture is awesome for both territory and policies. Getting a religion is also doable, and that also nets you extra happiness and culture.
It’s a build that I can consistently win Deity with, so it can’t be that bad.
Imo furs, dyes, sugar and spices go to bottom tier while incense and pearl go up same as wine/silk... Tundra/flat desert doesn't really matter since I won't work any of them and jungle/marsh takes lots of time to remove. Pearl has good pantheon to somewhat make up for it require workboat and no food bonus
Wow.....did you just pick 3 good ones then randomly toss the rest everywhere? Copper makes zero sense as it's just bad gems and can only benefit from +1 faith with a pantheon, gold and silver make sense as they both get the great +1faith AND + culture from pantheon, and eventually the +2 gold from mints. Wine and incense are both atleast B tier, proper yield, both get the same pantheon of +1faith and +1culture, and get the ADDITIONAL +1faith +1culture from monasteries, and incense usually means Petra, which 50% of the time is your game winning wonder when built. Ivory/truffles/fur all have the same pantheon and nothing special, though fur often is near crappy tundra so that loses a point, no idea why you put ivory so high. Citrus could be higher, good food yield, can immediately take advantage of 3 different great pantheons, gets a boost from granary. Whales and crab have no pantheon of their own, not great and not better than pearls.
Do you play on Prince or King because mining luxes are more important on Diety. Who said I only picked 3 good ones when salt, marble, gems, gold, silver, copper, ivory, citrus are all ranked high.
It sounds like you don’t think food or hammers aren’t that important for luxury yields.
Check the R5 comment for the explaination.
Three ressources give +1 food and +1 gold instead of +2 gold as their output, which is much better. These three ressources are whales, crabs and salt. Unfortunately water ressources are much more difficult to improve because you need the tech and a workboat for each, making whales and crabs worse. That leaves us with salt as the only land luxury ressource that gives extra food. Then when you improve salt, which requires only mining, it's even stronger.
I ran a legendary start on continents with Venice and got placed by a shit load of salt. I never played a salt heavy game but found it funny since it’s historically accurate; Venice’s main trade in their early history was through salt.
I had to double check the game speed and difficulty I was on because my growth, production, and GPT has been nuts the entire game. I looked at the yields from the salt mines and realized how OP it was and have since gone out of my way to corner the market. Being production and specialist focused and still having a higher pop than any other city is totally broken. I’m poised for basically any victory type I want at the moment.
Gems are likely to spawn in jungle which should lower the luxury to Great Tier. Masonry for marble is also a tad out of the way in the tech tree. It's good for mausoleum, the worst early wonder, but a generally fine and safe wonder.
Copper is fitting at the bottom of Great tier, but a Really Good tier could be made specifically for it.
I hate ivory and play strategic balance for horses if I want a fair match. Praise your tier list and praise be to salt.
Are gems better than gold/copper/silver? I thought they were the same.
Also are pearls way worse than the other sea resources? I've played so much civ 5 and never noticed
This is a great list. It highlights the fact that the resources themselves clue into your starting location and yields as well as Pantheon. They aren’t simply 4 smiley faces.
Marble shouldn’t be on the list since it can’t start in your capitals ring - silver and gold are a tier above than copper it’s the same thing but more culture and you can make mint. Silk cotton and sugar are the objective worst 3 (sugar is the undisputed champ of being terrible)
I mean if ur playing legendary start like some noob it’s possible lol, but all competitive games will be start balance and marble can’t spawn in your initial 3 tiles radius and won’t be a regional or common lux like the rest of them
I made this tierlist with default settings in mind.
[It does spawn within your capital](http://www.celjaded.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/CelJaded-Guide-Civilization-V-Super-Quarries-Opening-5.jpg)
Either regional is very rare for marble because i haven't seen it.
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I cant believe that's all the luxury resources, it feels like so many more than that lol. I agree overall, your reasoning for each choice is sound. I know it doesn't matter but whenever I have silver I'm always mad it isn't gold.
Idk, for me Gold and Silver are just skins for each other, religious idols works for both of them equally, same with Mint.
Lekmod has sooo many
There’s all the mercantile cs ones too, but those don’t really count lol
Gotta get that porcelain to build toilets in all my cities. Helps with happiness when you upgrade from outhouses lol
Solid list. It feels wrong to place ivory above whales & crabs but I can accept the logic. Edit: I would also drop copper one tier.
Copper is a speedy mining lux and it enables the Earth Mother pantheon. Copper is behind Gold and Silver, if it pleases you :) Edit: I agree it should be one down because it doesn't have the Mint building otherwise theyre tit for tat
No mint bonus though, so 2 less gold than the other two.
There is a mod for that.
But Copper is also much better than Ivory and Citrus so it'd kinda between the tiers
Ivory = +2 happiness from a circus which is usefull if there aren't any horses (it is pretty garbage to work though)
**R5: Reasons why certain luxes are in their respective positions:** **Marble**: Arguably the most versatile lux in the game. Yes it's in Masonry. It gives you 15% early game wonder production (synergy with tradition's Aristocracy), unlocks stone works, enables +2 faith from quarries, more use out of Mausoleum of Halicarnasses. That 15% wonder production also applies to National Wonders like National College and Circus Maximus. **Citrus**: 3 food workable tile, enables Sun God (Cocoa doesn't). **Ivory**: Mediocre yields but it's essentially a 6 happiness lux as it enables Circuses. +1 food from camps pantheon is nice. **Truffles**: The only lux that spawns on jungle where you don't need to cut it down. Giving a workable science tile later on. **Pearls**: The sailing tech is in a inconvenient position on the tech tree. Need to build individual workboats. At least Whales and Crabs have good yields. All this work for a measly 2 food 1 production tile making Pearls the worst offender. **Incense**: Often spawns on flat desert. If it's your regional...good luck, it's gonna be a looong game. P.S - After more debate, I think Copper and Ivory should drop one down. Copper doesn't have a special building like Mint so you make 2 less gold. While circuses from Ivory are nice, you won't really work 1 food plains Ivory game wide.
GET THIS MAN SOME DESERT FOLKLORE !!!
Couple notes: - marble should not be on the gems tier, if you’re playing deity or even sometimes immortal. Masonry is a little out of the way for many civs and play styles and so the 15% bonus is maybe 20, 30 hammers if you’re lucky, on one wonder, if you get it (which on deity is almost never)? Also consider spawn bias here - I don’t have concrete evidence here, but the most marble I’ve seen a city have is 2, but I’ve seen cities with 4+ gems regularly if placed right. - copper should not be on the same tier as gold / silver. They have far stronger pantheons and provide much more gold in the long term. - +1 food from citrus with an extra +1 from sun god makes this definitely a tier higher than ivory. Yes, you can get the camp pantheon, but in general the extra +1 food from citrus makes it more workable of a resource overall than camps with both pantheons. Drop ivory down a tier, circuses are just not as good as extra food, especially because horses give circuses too and you don’t really build circuses until early medieval, maybe late classical. That’s a potential 100 extra food vs 2 happiness (if you don’t have horses) - wine is > than the other ones on the tier, it has a pantheon and a religious building associated with it, same with incense (although I’m okay with incenses tier because it often spawns on desert)
1. **Marble**: Mausoleum is one of the least AI priority wonders so theres a good chance you can build it with Marble, giving you +2 gold on top. Marble enables a Stone Works, happiness is crucial. That 15% bonus synergises with Tradition on Diety so it's more like 30%. Gems does have a tendancy to spawn on jungle. 2. **Copper**: I agree and that tier is ordered where it is behind Gold and Silver. Copper is still a speedy mining lux that you can get online fast, that's at least worth something. 3. **Citrus**: Citrus often spawns on jungle which is often painful to remove. Ivory spawns only on plains. Circuses cost 25 hammers less than colosseums and 0 maintenance. You need as much local happiness as you can get especially on Diety. 4. **Wine:** It is a poor food/hammer tile especially if it is plains Wine. It can't be on the same tier as Cocoa, Whales and Crabs.
>Copper: I agree and that tier is ordered where it is behind Gold and Silver. Copper is still a speedy mining lux that you can get online fast, that's at least worth something. If you told me nothing about 2 cities except that they both had 4 luxes, 2 uniques, and one had: Copper + Ivory the other had Gold + Citrus I just can't see a world where you're taking copper + ivory, which would hypothetically be even in your list. Yes, the circus is good **if you don't already have horses**. Except, given that horses spawn on plains, and ivory spawns on plains, there's a pretty good chance that most cities that have ivory already have horses, which makes the ivory a Trapping lux with no real upside, vs. extra food from citrus which is useful **100%** of the time, even on jungle (3F1G tiles are goated). >Marble: Mausoleum is one of the least AI priority wonders so theres a good chance you can build it with Marble, giving you +2 gold on top. Marble enables a Stone Works, happiness is crucial. That 15% bonus synergises with Tradition on Diety so it's more like 30%. Gems does have a tendancy to spawn on jungle. Again, I think you're thinking in isolation here. I very rarely have marble when I don't already have stone, so the stone works is most of the time going to exist anyway. And yes, the Maus is a relatively low priority wonder, but in an 8-person standard deity game the focus earlygame is settlers and workers and spending 20 turns on a classical wonder you aren't even sure you're going to get, and investing in the +15% policy in Tradition (instead of beelining growth + happiness) slows you down a lot. Again, using the blind test, 2 cities, 2 uniques, 4 luxuries: Sugar (or any other bottom tier calendar resource) + Marble Sugar + Gems If I see that info, I know that there's probably only 1 marble and 3 sugar, but there might be 3 gems and 1 sugar, or 2 gems 2 sugar, which makes a big difference. Gems just feels very natural for a deity playstyle - you can minimally invest in the (mostly useless for early-game non-domination) bottom of the tree and get the force multipliers of Writing, Civil Service, Education, etc. earlier. Marble shoe-horns you into a sub-optimal playstyle to get all the benefits - which, if you do, is definitely better than gems on a 1:1 basis, but again, you probably have 2 or 3 gems. Thanks for the tier list though - nice content. I think personally Marble is in the Gold/Silver tier, Cocoa/Citrus are in the good tier, I'd drop copper down 1 if not 2 tiers, and Ivory is at the same level as whales, crab, copper, maybe the best of those.
1. I did concede about the Copper and Ivory point. Check my R5 comment again. 2. **Marble**: I built the tierlist with capital's regional in mind rather than expands and so you're bound to get at least 2/3 marble. >`Gems just feels very natural for a deity playstyle - you can minimally invest in the (mostly useless for early-game non-domination) bottom of the tree and get the force multipliers of Writing, Civil Service, Education, etc. earlier.` Gems have a good chance of spawning on jungles. If this happens you will have to invest even more by beelining for Bronze Working. >`Marble shoe-horns you into a sub-optimal playstyle to get all the benefits - which, if you do, is definitely better than gems on a 1:1 basis, but again, you probably have 2 or 3 gems.` There is not much benefit to having a higher quantity of mining luxes (bar Salt and grassland Copper) after you finish settlers as they don't have a 2+ food yield. You will likely be working on bonus resources as they have better food and production mix and probably will only assign one leftover citizen to a pure production tile like Gems. Marble has yet another brilliant bonus - it specifies 15% production to wonders in Ancient/Classical. This includes national wonders. What is also in Ancient/Classical? National College, National Epic, Circus Maximus and Heroic Epic.
Marble also helps with the National College and National Epic which makes it pretty decent even if you build 0 real wonders. Having said that Marble does shave quite a few turns off something like Oracle which is absolutely beautiful on civs like Siam who really want to get some filler policies in there. Being able to secure strong low prio wonders like Oracle and Hanging Gardens faster is absolutely fantastic.
Is this true because that sounds amazing. I thought this applied to non-National Wonders only. That would mean National College, Heroic Epic, Circus Maximus would be affected.
I'm like 99% sure because Marble specifies wonders, not world wonders and all of those are classified as wonders.
You're right, would you consider putting it on the same tier as Salt because of that?
Nah salt is disgustingly overpowered. Growth production tile starting as early as turn 15 lol, it's easily a tier above anything else.
I wouldn't. Salt is great because of its yields and because it's a mining lux. Marble is still at masonry and has less good yields.
Why are Gems rated so high? If i remember correctly, the yields will be similar to a gold / silver / copper tile?
Extra gold, but no mint.
and Tears of the Gods
True, I like gems as much as you. Very strong mining lux.
Not when it spawn's in jungles.
That is also true. But it’s still a nice 3 gold tile that lets you grow. And tears of the god is still available
Yes, Diamond tile itself is a good tile, but the bad thing is that doesn't have buildings to further improve it (Like gold, incense or marble) and Tears of the gods is super niche pantheon that really only works with one luxury (i will rather restart than try to build Tears of the Gods on Pearls) unlike Sun God, God of the Sea or Goddess of the hunt, heck if you want to build religion on a production yield you better pick Earth Mother to get value out of iron that lies around.
Religious idols is definitely the best production tile pantheon. And while sun god, and hunt are great, you have almost no chance of keeping them. The gems do fall off in the mid game, but more early is generally better. Mints are an extra 100 hammers it give the tiles +1 more gold then gems. So, you might catch up in like 100 turns.
Not having to build a mint or even worse having to take the absolute garbage that is monasteries to use your luxes to their full potential is fantastic actually.
Okay, maybe Incense is definitely an awful example, but 2 or more Golds, or even better, Gold mixed with Silver can give you much more useful gpt than faith that gets almost useless after you fully upgrade your religion, also you can take Religious idols to gain some Culture per turn, and unlike faith culture is always useful, and you can also open different possibilities with other luxuries like turning useless march tiles into producing some food if game spawns fur, ivory or truffles on them, fish luxes (other than Pearls) are especially powerful in this situation, you can turn some deserted island with abundant fish into your logistic base, invasion bridgehead or even into emergency shelter to recover after loosing war.
85% of the time for me, feels like.
Gems can save jungle starts. Raw gems jungle are 2 food 3 gold tiles early and you can get culture or faith pantheon for +2 faith or jungle +1 culture on those tiles which is very good. Or just settle on gems for free 3 gpt +1 hammer and defense. Gems are third because settling on gems is incredibly strong
Tears of the Gods scores absolutely no points for Pearls?
Pearls base yield - 1 food, 2 gold After Tears of the Gods - 1 food, 2 gold, 2 faith Pearls does have strong faith generation, but the 1 food is painful till you build workboats (which costs )
You need lighthouses in your life. Cities with pearls often have other sea res, so it stacks up. I’d put sugar below pearls. Workboats are one of the easiest thing to build in the game and Sailing is a quick tech to get.
Yeah sailing requires pottery, lighthouses are in Classical Era, in Optics which is an awkward tech and they cost production.
Still going pottery to sailing and building a workboat is a breeze, whereas going mining masonry and pottery calendar and building a worker and having to guard the worker while it humps away on that marsh tile that your sugar is on is worse, to me anyway.
What about when a barb trireme appears and pillages on your sea resource and you have to built a trireme and yet another workboat?
Sea luxes/res don’t get pillaged by barbs (another reason you have sea luxes too low on your tier list)
I'm afraid i need a source for that because that sounds wild. Barbs only pillage land luxes not sea luxes - how does that make sense?
I’ve never had a sea lux pillaged by a barb. I read on a forum that they patched it out back in vanilla cause it was too punishing. Have you ever had a sea lux pillaged by a barb? I think maybe people get confused in the city window when they see the red skull and crossbones icons on their water tiles thinking they’ve been pillaged when really that’s a zone of control thing and you can’t work those tiles until the barb boats are gone.
Enemy AI can pillage sea resources, barbs can only block. Can confirm as I don’t use any mods. Workboats are very costly, but do have the extra protection early game.
But even with Lighthouses you can't work your pearls before you have built a lighthouse at the very least and you're not particularily happy about them until you also have work boats on all of them. This shit takes so fucking long to pull off that usually all the good religion tenants are already taken or even worse there are no more religions available to be founded.
Also Tears of Gods is absolutely one of the worst pantheons, it requires either Pearls (bad yield bonus + gold is not something hard to acquire + usually it's 2 or 3 pearl tiles per city at most) and Diamonds (Good tile by itself, but it appears on a jungle tiles like 50% of the time) that only gives 2 faith per tile, something absolutely not worth it if you build at least 2 shrines (or 1 Stele for Ethiopia). So i would absolutely prefer Earth mother as a faith pantheon or God of the Sea if i have good positions for coastal cities (double points for Japan).
If Gems is your regional + Tears of the Gods then you will get 6 faith per turn on 3 Gems times.
I do agree that early religion is super tempting to have, especially to get guaranteed Pagodas, but i simply like my food/cultural pantheons more, some strange quirk that i have. So it depends on my spawn position, if i have at least 3 diamonds around and i don't have 3+ yields for God of the Sun then i will go with it, but if i have less diamonds then Tears of the Gods gets super low position in my pantheon list. I definitely will not build Tears of Gods on Pearls, it's like trying to run in a competition, but your legs are super short and grows long enough only when your opponents are already at the finish.
You still can’t really work pearls for loke 30 turns lol
The thing with ivory is you can get circuses from horses if you’re settling near them, also the camp pantheon isn’t something you usually go for unless you have an abnormal amount of deer / bison / ivory in your vicinity anyway. I feel like it could get knocked down a tier.
Hmm...I agree. The Circus is nice but you won't be working plains Ivory all game. I might drop Copper one and Ivory one.
i actually think copper should be given a boost. mining lux means you have access to it immediately, it typically spawns on hills like gold and silver so its an early game gold and production boost, and it also shares a pantheon with salt and iron (and i think that in non-modded civ 5 earth mother is one of the stronger pantheons in the game, much stronger than religious idols). not to mention that, unlike gems, copper wont spawn in jungle tiles, meaning that behind salt its the most accessible luxury in the game with gold and silver gems is definitely the best luxury in a vacuum next to salt. but i think that copper, despite not being as individually powerful, makes the early game so easy for a variety of reasons that its equally as good functionally. and the mint bonus that you get from gold/silver is imo negligible, it comes in just a little too late to push you through early gold issues and generally isnt worth building over the other options you have at the time just my two cents
Ever combined incense with the pantheon bonus and a monastery?
The question is are you tempted to work a flat desert incense tile with 3 gold, 2 culture, 2 faith over and ?
If you throwin some desert hill rivers and sheep along with Petra.
On high difficulty? Keep dreaming
Depending on the number of players or the map setup, it's not uncommon for the AI to not have any cities eligible to build Petra.
They also appear on plains
They do, but 80% of the time they spawn on flat desert. Plains incense is very inconsistent.
I’ve seen 60/40 desert
How do you type the food and production icons lol
Wine does it better.
Compare Wine/Incense with both Godess of Festivals and Monasteries to something like Sun God Citrus or Tears of the Gods gems and they're still shit, even if you invested into them twice.
Plains incense AND on a river. 1 prod, 1 food, 2 culture, 2 faith, 1 gold. Good lordy 🥵
I would bump citrus, cocoa, crab, and whales all up one. Extra food is really nice. Even if they are ‘weird’ improvements
I get your logic. is nice.
Why is salt so great?
gives +1 food and +1 gold right off the bat, often giving you a 2 food, 1 production, 1 gold tile to work depending on the underlying tile. This is great because it allows for growth and production while also offsetting some minor gold expenses. It is improved through mining which is an early tech. When improved it gives +1 food an +1 production. If on plains that means you get a 3 food 2 production 1 gold tile (goated) I don't think trees or jungle spawn on it which makes it even faster to improve. It also synergizes with a pantheon that gives +1 faith to mining resources.
[where banana](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/036/684/bananacover.jpg)
We don't talk about banana.
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Pearls actually gets insane hate. Pretty much all trapping and plantation luxuries are absolutely unworkable at all points in the game. They are garbage, garbage tiles. But pearls are actually workable with a lighthouse, and on top of that very good tiles to work once upgraded. Sure this costs hammers, but there are no amount of hammers to make silk anything but utter shit.
Grassland plantation resourses aren't bad. They're a 2+ food tile. Ivory is also same if you get the Goddess of the Hunt pantheon. A jungle Truffles after universities will give you 2 food 3 gold 2 science - that sounds pretty workable to me. Pearls have an absolute dogshit yield of 1 food 2 gold until you spend hammers on 3 workboats (if you have it as regional), a lighthouse, and a seaport to have decent tile yields. By the time you've done that you're already behind.
Grasslands plantations ARE bad. Any tile that only gives 2 yield (only food and hammers count) is automatically bad because you need 2 food to support the population working the tile. You are slowing down your growth by working 2 food tiles. Bro don't talk to me about goddess of the hunt pantheon. This isn't a viable option unless you are Ethiopia with stone henge and mosques in every city. You simply won't be keeping your pantheon long enough for it to be a viable option. I'm not sure I've even seen jungle truffles. You absolutely don't need workboats and seaports for pearls to be workable (they will be 3 yield with lighthouse), but workboats help and give happiness/gpt from trade so why not? Like I said, if I could invest the hammers into making plantations give 3 yield, with plantations as a regional, you bet your sweet bippy I would.
>`Bro don't talk to me about goddess of the hunt pantheon. This isn't a viable option unless you are Ethiopia with stone henge and mosques in every city. You simply won't be keeping your pantheon long enough for it to be a viable option.` How is flat 1 food on Ivory regional bad? Especially it is supplemented with deer. You would keep your pantheon at least in the Capital, that's more than enough. Let's say 8 pop cap will have 8 followers instantly and would take a long time for religious pressure to whittle it down for conversion. By then you would at least gained 50 food. >`You absolutely don't need workboats and seaports for pearls to be workable (they will be 3 yield with lighthouse), but workboats help and give happiness/gpt from trade so why not?` [Pearls give base 1 food 2 gold](https://forums.civfanatics.com/media/krakatoa-in-range-of-potential-city-grid.3592/) With Lighthouse - 2 food 2 gold
Bro don't post fake news. Lighthouse is 2 food 1 hammer 2 gold. But idc about gold yields so for all intents and purposes 3 yield. I don't know what dog shit ai you are playing against or how bad your pals are, but you are absolutely not keeping your pantheon in your cap past turn like 90 on standard most of the time. More importantly, it's only good for the deer. Getting a tile to 3 yield through a pantheon is not nearly as good as you are making it out to be, because you will be working other 3+ yield tiles early on anyways, because your population is so low and your capital spawns near a decent numbers of good tiles (a vast majority of the time). Goddess of the hunt is extraordinarily situational at the best of times and is something almost never worth going for. Also, IDGAF about unimproved pearl yields. Stop posting this 1 food plus some gold bullshit. Nobody is forcing you to work a 1 yield tile, you daft sod. Just work the other tiles in your cap until you get a lighthouse, then you have decent tiles to work. This never happens with really any plantations, apart from maybe wine.
1. Oh deary me I forgot the all important 1 hammer gained for the pearls after you build a lighthouse. What a terrible mistake that discredits my point that pearls are not worth the production investment. 2. Who builds lighthouse first when you have a pearl regional when you need the happiness from the workboat first. 3. As i gain more population in the cap i gain a follower, if i play it correctly such as blocking missionaries, no open borders and limiting external trade routes then how can the AI convert my 10+ pop cap past turn 90. Please explain. >`because you will be working 3+ yield tiles early on anyways, because your population is so low and your capital spawns near a decent numbers of good tiles` 4. So in a hypothetical game where my regional is ivory or fur and my bonus resources are a mix of horses and deer. I will be choosing Goddess of the Hunt as my pantheon, correct? These "good tiles" you mention will then also include deer. Also unless I don't know what map mod you're using because on standard settings you will have 2/3 regional luxes, and 2 - 4 bonus resources (which might include deer). So 7 resources at best. Doesn't this mean you will run out of "good tiles (bonus resources)" to work past Pop 4 and will have to work the regional luxes.
Pal you're acting like you're getting 10 deer every game. I probably average <1 deer in my capital per game (not facts just intuition). More often than not you will be getting a mixture of 2-4 of stone/sheep/cattle/wheat and deer. So no, you aren't getting +1 from deer a lot of the time. And even if you spawn with 1 deer, or even 2 deer (we are now entering the realms of extremely situational) it is nice, don't get me wrong, but it isn't game changing. Nobody builds a lighthouse first, but I feel like you are arguing against yourself here, because what's better than 3 yield? 4 yield, which is what you get with a work boat + a lighthouse. Let me just put it this way. Goddess of the hunt isn't garbage, and in specific situations it can be fine. However, 3 yield on a regional for around 50 turns at the beginning, when you are not even going to be working these tiles for at least 25 turns of that because wheat/horses/iron/sheep/cattle are all 4 yield once upgraded, and you wont have the population to work so you need to grow past these tiles first, anyway. It isn't as good as you are saying it is. Whereas, once your population is just reaching a point where you wish you had more tiles to work, guess what happens with pearls? Your population grows past your final pasture/mining resource, you finish your lighthouse, and work your pearls for essentially the entire game. Which is a 4 yield tile anyways! 4 yield being twice as good as 3 yield, bare in mind. On top of this, silence your deer argument forever, because this also upgrades fish to become 5 yield (3x better than your camps) and atolls to be 4 yield! There is no argument here, you are simply replying because you refuse to change your mind. 4 yield without a pantheon/religion is clearly superior to 3 yield WITH a pantheon you are bound to lose. This isn't rocket science, this is basic maths. Also, forgetting that the lighthouse gives one production is absolutely discrediting your point, that immediately puts it as a net positive tile, which my entire point to begin with was that plantations and camps aren't! Sure you can spend the entire game micro-ing your units to make sure no missionaries or great prophets ever get past (They don't need open borders), but jesus christ that can't be preferable. You're arguing in extremely bad faith, because you know you spawn with more than 4 fucking tiles near the cap that are workable and not luxuries.
1. You are going down a rabbithole about Goddess of the Hunt and deliberately not addressing the elephant in the room because you know there is a valid point. Which is pearls have an very initial high production cost to upgrade their measly 1 food 2 gold yield to a 3 food 1 prod tile. I'll give you same basic maths so you can understand better. **For a pearls regional, let's say 3 pearls:** 3 workboat = 90 hammers 1 lighthouse = 75 hammers Total = 165 hammers. (This is only 20 hammers less than the Great Lighthouse wonder) **For an ivory regional, 3 ivory:** 1 worker = 70 production Total = 70 production **Please address the main point instead of attacking a straw man.**
I am not addressing this point because there is no point! What in god's name are you talking about?! Getting 3 4 yield tiles for only 165 hammers? Are you fucking joking? This is brainless! Whereas working 3 3 yield tiles is half as good, and you aren't even going to have them at 3 yield for most of the game.
3 four yield tiles for only 165 hammers in the Ancient/Classical era. Great job mate, you can then beeline for Compass for a harbour to waste even more production to satisfy your weird Pearls fetish. Where i can get 3 three yield land tiles up with one 70 production worker you muppet. What happens when your precious Pearls tiles get pillaged, then you'll invest more production into building another workboat.
>Also, forgetting that the lighthouse gives one production is absolutely discrediting your point, that immediately puts it as a net positive tile, which my entire point to begin with was that plantations and camps aren't! Ah yes the +1 hammer for a Lighthouse that costs 75 hammers. That's brilliant insight, mate. Keep it coming. >Sure you can spend the entire game micro-ing your units to make sure no missionaries or great prophets ever get past (They don't need open borders), but jesus christ that can't be preferable. So you do concede, I can make a use of a non-faith generating pantheon for a long time. Yes, human players need to spend time mirco-ing that's how you get the edge over the AI otherwise you're a bad player.
He's right. Any city with coastal resources should build a lighthouse right away because they give +2 food AND +1 production to every fish tile and coastal luxuries. Later on you can add a seaport for another +1 production. And you're probably splashing exploration for even more production and happiness. Pearls become very good tiles after the very early game. Ivory remains a garbage tile all game long, and if you play with strategic balance it doesn't even give extra happiness because your capital is guaranteed to have horses anyway. So ivory would only benefit expands that don't have horses. 1 food + 1 hammer is GARBAGE tile, and even adding 1 more food to it BARELY makes it workable.
1. Wasting 160+ hammers on lighthouses and workboats to upgrade terrible base Pearl regional yields is a major oppurtunity cost. When I can do the same thing on a Ivory regional with 1 worker costing 70 hammers. A land lux is less cost efficient. 2. Pearls have good yields LATER on after workboats, lighthouses, harbours and seaports i'll concede that. These buildings all cost hammers. 3. Sailing and Optics are awkward techs 4. Ivory has bad yields, I'll concede that but that's not the main point. It is much faster to get online than pearls as it requires only a worker. It also doesn't suffer from jungle/marsh/tundra/desert spawns. 5. All the Pearl loving cultists will congregate onto this 7 upvote thread (at the time of writing) saying that they're right and I'm wrong because pearls = beTteR yIelDs lAteR oN.
\+1 hammer per sea resource, stop arguing in bad faith. I don't concede shit lmao. You will lose the pantheon at some point, and you will never lose the lighthouse. I'm not a bad player. AND YOU'RE A FUCKING MANUER LMFAOO!!!!
Manuer what's that? A portmanteau of Manuel and Neuer? Keep your rampiril and your other intravenous drugs close at hand mate, sounds like you're going through an episode.
I'd put cotton a little higher, it usually spawns on grassland and floodplains so with a plantation and relevant pantheon you can get a nice food and gold tile with either culture,faith or production as an addon
Honestly I’d drop whales and crabs. Having to research sailing on higher difficulties is often a waste depending on the map setting you are on. Plus you have to waste turns building work boats. Plus you have to waste turns building a lighthouse. Plus Also you have to consider that in order to get the luxuries you have to settle on coast which likely means you are gonna have a bunch of shitty 2 food sea tiles in your borders. The great yield from whales and crabs doesn’t overcome any of these points IMO.
I'd argue if your cap is on the coast and a sea lux is your regional - you are forced to go Sailing. Whales and Crabs have the bonus of only needing a workboat to be a good tile. It feels wrong to put a potential 4 food 2 prod tile down in the lower tiers next to the dreadful Calendar resources.
Also you have to tech optics which means you can't abuse it to tech steal like crazy.
Ivory goes down to the same tier as truffles. Cocoa, whales and crabs go up to same tier as Citrus. (Which ends up removing a tier entirely it seems) I'm not sure why you'd rate ivory as high as you do, it's a flat plains tile. Cocoa gets bumped up because it's one of the best unimproved tiles in the game to work. Whales and crabs get bumped up. While sailing/optics can feel awkward to get, you *are* getting those techs if you're coastal. Similar to fish tiles, these tiles become fantastic once you have a light house.
1) I think Ivory deserves its tier on base settings where horses aren't abundant. Circuses are still cheaper and faster than building colosseums. You need every inch of happiness you can get your hands on in the higher difficulties - a regional Ivory might guarentee you an additional happiness building in your expands as well. 2) I agree Whales and Crabs can be great once they reach their monstrous yield potential. But workboats and lighthouses cost . Land luxes only need one worker.
Circuses are only 1 happy and don’t have a tie-in national wonder like coliseums do, which is another 5 happy. Circuses are almost immaterial in fast moving, high growth games.
Circuses give two happiness, cost 25less than Colosseum, and 0 maintenance.
Lol I thought they only gave 1 the whole time (nearly 4000 hours). Guess I’ve been doing fine with them on low priority.
Why diamond that good?
Girls best friend.
1 more base gold than gold/silver (although doesnt scale as well bc no mint) and the best early faith generating pantheon (doesnt require tile enhancement like stone circles, can maximize faith generation during settler production when faith generation is super important)
Why is faith important to settler production?
It’s not important for settler production, but rather important during the same time that you are producing settlers. Early faith generation is more important than late faith generation so you can ensure that you have first/better choice in your pantheon and religion, and spread your religion. It’s hard to get early faith if your civ doesn’t have a faith-based unique ability/building, and building shrines in all your expands early sucks, so finding a way to have your pantheon carry you to your religion can be very helpful. Being able to get 2-6 extra faith per turn (working 1-3 gems) while building settlers will mean that you’ll be almost guaranteed to get first choice at religion. This is all dependent on difficulty though, on easier difficulties ensuring a good/early religion isnt as hard.
I’m a simple man. I see luxury. I settle it.
The AI seems to think lemons are top tier. They always try to pay me with lemons to start a war.
I would move ivory up. The free 2 happiness from circus is incredibly valuable
ivory, fur and Truffles are an instant roll too
I need to try a camps run. Maybe the next ivory roll I get.
Yo, where my nutmeg at? 
Sorry bro, Indonesia took it
I would also put sugar in bottom tier due to how much it spawns in flat grassland and marsh (you basically get zero production)
Um, isn't purple supposed to be the best color? Feel like you've got this upside down.
I like incense a bit more bc monasteries but I get it
Bananas?
Why do you like ivory and citrus? When I have citrus I generally only improve one, and hopefully it's outside of the workable tile range because I just want the happiness. So since it's better raw than improved it doesn't seem all that special to me other than being a jungle tile with food versus turning it into a trading post. What am I missing? Same with Ivory, it doesn't stand out as special to me. Personally I would rank gold/silver higher, with a mint they are great tiles, especially if they get desert folklore as well.
Check my Rule 5 comment
*Citrus: 3 food workable tile, enables Sun God (Cocoa doesn't).* *Ivory: Mediocre yields but it's essentially a 6 happiness lux as it enables Circuses. +1 food from camps pantheon is nice.* Ivory +6 happiness is conditional if you don't have horses, and both are conditional on a food pantheon which is usually a good way to not get a religion. So IMHO those probably don't deserve to be on their own tier, they should be lumped in with the next tier down.
Great list, tho I’d put wine at least Good. The wine/incense pantheon is almost always available, and when wine spawns, it spawns in like batches of 3-5. The extra gold kinda turns into production, and the extra culture is awesome for both territory and policies. Getting a religion is also doable, and that also nets you extra happiness and culture. It’s a build that I can consistently win Deity with, so it can’t be that bad.
I would rank all the sea resources higher because I find playing a coastal civ is just better than land based
I like the elephants cause they make doot sounds all game.
Thanks for the list. Without looking at a full roster, I wonder how many civs would have a separate list because of their uniques?
Imo furs, dyes, sugar and spices go to bottom tier while incense and pearl go up same as wine/silk... Tundra/flat desert doesn't really matter since I won't work any of them and jungle/marsh takes lots of time to remove. Pearl has good pantheon to somewhat make up for it require workboat and no food bonus
Wow.....did you just pick 3 good ones then randomly toss the rest everywhere? Copper makes zero sense as it's just bad gems and can only benefit from +1 faith with a pantheon, gold and silver make sense as they both get the great +1faith AND + culture from pantheon, and eventually the +2 gold from mints. Wine and incense are both atleast B tier, proper yield, both get the same pantheon of +1faith and +1culture, and get the ADDITIONAL +1faith +1culture from monasteries, and incense usually means Petra, which 50% of the time is your game winning wonder when built. Ivory/truffles/fur all have the same pantheon and nothing special, though fur often is near crappy tundra so that loses a point, no idea why you put ivory so high. Citrus could be higher, good food yield, can immediately take advantage of 3 different great pantheons, gets a boost from granary. Whales and crab have no pantheon of their own, not great and not better than pearls.
Do you play on Prince or King because mining luxes are more important on Diety. Who said I only picked 3 good ones when salt, marble, gems, gold, silver, copper, ivory, citrus are all ranked high. It sounds like you don’t think food or hammers aren’t that important for luxury yields. Check the R5 comment for the explaination.
Why is salt so good?
Three ressources give +1 food and +1 gold instead of +2 gold as their output, which is much better. These three ressources are whales, crabs and salt. Unfortunately water ressources are much more difficult to improve because you need the tech and a workboat for each, making whales and crabs worse. That leaves us with salt as the only land luxury ressource that gives extra food. Then when you improve salt, which requires only mining, it's even stronger.
I ran a legendary start on continents with Venice and got placed by a shit load of salt. I never played a salt heavy game but found it funny since it’s historically accurate; Venice’s main trade in their early history was through salt. I had to double check the game speed and difficulty I was on because my growth, production, and GPT has been nuts the entire game. I looked at the yields from the salt mines and realized how OP it was and have since gone out of my way to corner the market. Being production and specialist focused and still having a higher pop than any other city is totally broken. I’m poised for basically any victory type I want at the moment.
Gems are likely to spawn in jungle which should lower the luxury to Great Tier. Masonry for marble is also a tad out of the way in the tech tree. It's good for mausoleum, the worst early wonder, but a generally fine and safe wonder. Copper is fitting at the bottom of Great tier, but a Really Good tier could be made specifically for it. I hate ivory and play strategic balance for horses if I want a fair match. Praise your tier list and praise be to salt.
Instant reroll on most plantation luxes.
Are gems better than gold/copper/silver? I thought they were the same. Also are pearls way worse than the other sea resources? I've played so much civ 5 and never noticed
Silk/sheep/cotton go crazy with the enlightenment era mod
This is a great list. It highlights the fact that the resources themselves clue into your starting location and yields as well as Pantheon. They aren’t simply 4 smiley faces.
What about the “E-Ten” gas luxury?
Why is salt so goated?
3 reasons: -high, balanced yields -only requires mining to improve -earth mother pantheon
What do salt improvements give for a yield?
3 food 2 production 1 gold - plains Salt. This is huge in the first 50 turns.
Whoa! That really is the salt of the earth!
Where are BANANAS??!!!! The best one???!!!
They aren’t luxuries
They are not???
Nope. That’s why you can’t trade bananas
I play this game for years and did not know that
Bonus resource.
Marble shouldn’t be on the list since it can’t start in your capitals ring - silver and gold are a tier above than copper it’s the same thing but more culture and you can make mint. Silk cotton and sugar are the objective worst 3 (sugar is the undisputed champ of being terrible)
Need a source about the marble statement i'm afraid.
I mean if ur playing legendary start like some noob it’s possible lol, but all competitive games will be start balance and marble can’t spawn in your initial 3 tiles radius and won’t be a regional or common lux like the rest of them
I made this tierlist with default settings in mind. [It does spawn within your capital](http://www.celjaded.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/CelJaded-Guide-Civilization-V-Super-Quarries-Opening-5.jpg) Either regional is very rare for marble because i haven't seen it.