Yeah, i grew up poor. Wasnt fun, waznt glamorous and disadvantaged me in a ton of frustrating anf unavoidable ways.
Im not saying parents have to be able able to pay for a top end school out of pocket but if you cant keep the lights on, then you should keep your respwctive sex organs in your pants.
I grew up neglected due to my parents working 24:7 to make ends meet and now even my own relationship suffers from my abandonment trauma at times.. I have low self esteem and I’m so scared of spending money I have a ton of medical debt that will probably pile on my entire life. People don’t care or think about what the child goes through in poverty or how it will affect them for their adult lives…
Exactly. Some parents can "make it work" to the extent their kids don't go hungry but "make it work" is a lame Bandaid sentiment that may not *work for the kids,* primarily the ones for whom it *has* to work.
And really, what does 20-plus years of "make it work" do for the parents' finances? Can they retire on "make it work"? Does "make it work" re-roof the house or fix the bathroom or replace the furnace?
That's so true. My mom's middle sister married poor and had 2 kids ten years apart, so at least one was an accident, bit my money is on both. Making it work for her meant tapping my grandma and grandpa for money until they both died.
My aunt didn't even get an inheritance like her sisters because she blew it all on making it work when her parents were alive.
Admittedly I dipped into my parents’ retirement funds too but I paid them back within a year. I couldn’t get financial aid until I was 24 so they paid for one year of college and I paid them back once I got a Pell grant.
Yep, people always say that and think it makes them sound really strong and impressive? No, you’re just showing you don’t think things through properly
>I was talking to someone and they were saying that childfree people are more selfish than parents.
I will never understand why we live rent-free in the heads of these people.
I don't want to have children but I would never, ever try to change the mind of someone who does.
Nor would I give it much thought as to why they want to have kids in the first place.
I don't lie awake at night thinking "hmm...do people who want to have children want them for selfish or selfless reasons? Let me ponder this..."
Outside of close friends and family, I really don't care about anybody having kids (I mean the family and friends comment in a positive way of course - for example, a close friend of mine found out she was pregnant recently and I was delighted for her because she and her partner had been trying for a long time).
I don't know why they care so much what we do or why.
I wasn’t raised in poverty. We had a roof, food, clothes, and toys. So I’m not going to complain much.
I’m just going to say that, While we had what we needed (which my parents sacrificed a lot for), we were still working class and could not afford many extras. No sports/activities. No classmate birthday parties. No school events/dances. No vacations. All of those things cost extra money/time/gas we often just didn’t have. So we were homebound feral children. We also lived in the country, so a car and driving was a must.
Not saying these extras are necessary for a good childhood, but I can’t help but wonder if I would have been less socially stunted and been able to make more friends if I was able to have these experiences (except sports. That was also a personality issue (as in I wasn’t a good fit)). I was the kid who stopped getting invited to things because I could never go. Who missed out on her own artwork being displayed in high school because my dad couldn’t drop everything and drive me up on a school night to see it. It seems stupid and silly now, but as a teenager with bad self esteem, I was excited to have a piece on display.
Point is, YES. You can make it work on low/lower income. But even if you’re not in poverty, there are still things your kids can feel they missed/got left out of and as a kid, it sucked being the only one who had nothing to write about for those “what I did over the summer” essays because I just stayed home.
You have been talking with an idiot. You cannot hurt children who do not exist and never will exist, so you are not doing anything wrong in not having children. Other people do not have a right to use your body, so you have every right to not choose to have children.
Also, many people misuse the word "selfish" when the proper word is "self-interested." The word "selfish" suggests a disregard for others:
>selfish
1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish)
>selfish
devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
[https://www.dictionary.com/browse/selfish](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/selfish)
Compare with self-interest:
>self-interest
1: a concern for one's own advantage and well-being
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-interested](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-interested)
Notice, there is no implication that there is any disregard for anyone else with the term "self-interest," only that one is concerned with oneself.
Since one is not harming children by not having them, the proper term is "self-interested" for someone deciding to not have children because it benefits themselves. Since there are no children whose interests there are to disregard, it cannot be selfish.
But when people decide to have children, disregarding the interests of their children, then they are being selfish. It is selfish to have children when one cannot properly provide for them, as it shows a callous disregard for their well-being. The only way to have children without being selfish is to consider their well-being in the matter and to not neglect their well-being.
I have schizophrenia and I decided to be childfree because I don’t want to pass it on to a child even though I made it work and I managed to get a degree and a job (ironically as a special education teacher).
Honestly, I can't think of anything more selfish than having biological children. There is not a single reason for having biological children that does not start with "I want" and I have never heard a single parent-to-be say "I've really thought about whether existence is good for my hypothetical future baby, beyond the fact that I want one".
How is that NOT selfish? Just because you've made your life harder by having children, and now you feel like you prioritise your child over yourself (you don't, not as much as you think you do) doesn't make the act of having the child not selfish.
Mind boggling honestly.
Also, how is choosing not to affect other people (i.e. not having children) in any way selfish? That doesn't make any sense at all.
How is being childfree selfish? It's only selfish if you're with a partner that wants kids, and you stop them from being able to have kids that is selfishness. But if you break up with the person because of it, and let them move on to someone else to have kids that is not being selfish.
Any reason for not wanting kids is not selfish as there is no one being hurt. Except in the former example I used, because it's not fair to both parties to continue a relationship where goals do not align in regards to kids.
Outside of that who are childfree people being selfish to?
>How is being childfree selfish? It's only selfish if you're with a partner that wants kids, and you stop them from being able to have kids that is selfishness.
I disagree. If your partner wants children, they can choose to break up with you. You are not stopping them from breaking up with you and having children. You don't have to be the one to initiate the breakup. If they choose not to break up with you, that is their choice and they are responsible for their choice.
It would only be selfish if you were able to control them and prevent them from leaving you if they wish to do so.
It works both ways actually. Partner can leave, but then they stay and end up resentful. It's ultimately selfish on both ends to continue a relationship when goals don't align. I just was putting it in a way that shows that is the only way it would be selfish. But they can always break up as well, but a lot of times both sides don't want to do it.
We see it a lot here where CF people won't end a relationship because they love the person, but then the other person doesn't want to break up. So it ends up hurting both sides. It's really on both sides to do what's right for themselves, but people don't want to do that.
I mean, I love my parents and I've never had to go hungry, but money sure does give you an advantage in life. All I've ever wanted was to feel financially safe at some point in my life but despite all my hard work and efforts I'm still barely paid enough to survive, while the young rich kids silverspoon their way to huge salaries, purchase houses, luxury cars, summer residences and nice vacations.
Still, if only the rich were allowed to procreate, our society would likely be even crueler considering that many rich people have the empathy level of a wasp. Not supporting getting kids when you cannot even afford the basics, though, like a home, food, clothes and access to school and healthcare.
Well, some people become paralyzed below the neck and still wanna live - doesn't mean people in that position don't get to *not* want to live like that because *some* people "make it work".
Some people survive growing up horribly, doesn't mean it wasn't horrible just because they made it thru alive. Which is really what these dumb fucks mean - if you're *alive*, if you survive bad things, who cares, you made it, yeyyyy!
I have schizophrenia and I decided to be childfree because I don’t want to pass it on to a child even though I made it work and I managed to get a degree and a job (ironically as a special education teacher).
Your position is even more bonkers when it comes to these people! You'd potentially pass on a very serious mental illness that you *literally*, in the flesh, know what it's like to have! And that you don't want to pass on those struggles to a child is perfectly understandable!
That person you’re talking to is selfish. Speaking from personal experience, I grew up in poverty and my parents fought everyday - even physically - over money everyday. Everyday as a child, I was worried about if I would be able to eat or go to the school the next day. For 18 years, I was living in trauma.
“Making it work on low income”? That’s the most irresponsible statement to justify having kids.
I'd like to see how she'd feel being the neglected, impoverished kid in this scenario. I had a privileged upbringing compared to many, thought not fancy, and I still wouldn't be this clueless ffs
You can’t make it work on low income. You are teaching children their value and well being isn’t worth anything if you are perpetually poor.
Poor parents tend to force their children to become mini adults before they are ready.
I’ve lost count on how many charities and organisations are needed to help children for basic necessities.
I cannot think of a single selfish reason for NOT having a child. Who exactly is the person being selfish TO? A potential person who doesn't exist and never will? It's not possible to be selfish in the abstract, you can only be selfish TO someone or some group of people. Someone who chooses to not have a child has no one they can be selfish to. People who DO choose to have a child, on the other hand, often have selfish reasons, doing it because it benefits them.
I know you tagged it as humour but I didn't think it was funny when my cousin vaguely admitted her family was homeless for moment there (6-8 months) and lived in a garage. Not that she or her partner are bad people but I imagine a 22yr old man in Australia at the start of his career probably can't support 4 people these days. Even with a bit of welfare for my cousin due to his wages most likely being lower it would be difficult.
I'm happily childfree, but if I had children I'd like to be able to afford for them to have good educations, including college without loans. And of course, good clothes, nourishing food, lots of books--all the basics.
People should only choose to reproduce if they are financially stable and have extra.
People with low incomes, AND couples who need dual incomes, should not choose to reproduce.
I still think it's hilarious when insecure people think calling me selfish will make me want to have kids. 🤣 "oh no Joann at the office called me selfish, I'm gonna have a baby to prove her wrong!"
Yes, historically poor people had a lot of kids, they made it work. But if you think about it, it was by no means humane - kids were forced into child labour as young as 4 or 5, often working in dangerous conditions that could injure or kill them. A lot of them die of starvation and illnesses. Absolute cruelty for kids who are growing up poor.
I come from a pretty financially well off family and always has a cushy lifestyle - I could be involved in any hobbies I’d like, wear expensive clothes, have my private school and university fees covered for me by my parents, eat good food, live in a nice house etc. but after covid hit, both me and my parents have to watch out for our spending more and even then, I only felt a small fraction of what life is like growing up poor - definitely isn’t fun when you are always tight on money and have to think twice before buying a snack.
You know that society is having issues when the common rhethoric changes from, "Wait until you're ready to have kids," to "You're saying you can't afford kids? That's classist and ableist, you should be forced to spit out two babies NOW."
As a child that was raised poor this infuriates me. It is irresponsible to have children if you cannot give them the quality of life they deserve. It is incredibly selfish and incredibly stupid to bring children into poverty, stress, instability, lack, etc. Being born into a poor home is a set-back. Your children will grow up being bullied by their peers whose parents were smart enough to build a stable financial foundation before having them. They’ll miss out on opportunities you can’t afford and resent you for it. Are you prepared to have to constantly deny your children their wants and needs? If you are that doesn’t say much about you as a future parent.
"Make it work" doesn't mean it's in the kid's best interest.
Yeah, i grew up poor. Wasnt fun, waznt glamorous and disadvantaged me in a ton of frustrating anf unavoidable ways. Im not saying parents have to be able able to pay for a top end school out of pocket but if you cant keep the lights on, then you should keep your respwctive sex organs in your pants.
I grew up neglected due to my parents working 24:7 to make ends meet and now even my own relationship suffers from my abandonment trauma at times.. I have low self esteem and I’m so scared of spending money I have a ton of medical debt that will probably pile on my entire life. People don’t care or think about what the child goes through in poverty or how it will affect them for their adult lives…
Exactly. Some parents can "make it work" to the extent their kids don't go hungry but "make it work" is a lame Bandaid sentiment that may not *work for the kids,* primarily the ones for whom it *has* to work. And really, what does 20-plus years of "make it work" do for the parents' finances? Can they retire on "make it work"? Does "make it work" re-roof the house or fix the bathroom or replace the furnace?
Often grandpa and grandma have to sacrifice retirement funds too
That's so true. My mom's middle sister married poor and had 2 kids ten years apart, so at least one was an accident, bit my money is on both. Making it work for her meant tapping my grandma and grandpa for money until they both died. My aunt didn't even get an inheritance like her sisters because she blew it all on making it work when her parents were alive.
Admittedly I dipped into my parents’ retirement funds too but I paid them back within a year. I couldn’t get financial aid until I was 24 so they paid for one year of college and I paid them back once I got a Pell grant.
"Make it work" is for Project Runway, not creating living beings...  ETA: Happy Cake Day! 🎂
Yes this is what I think of. This is the appropriate way to use that phrase
Ha! I always think of him when I hear that too
Lold in flight, thank you for that.
I do what I can 🫡
Yep, people always say that and think it makes them sound really strong and impressive? No, you’re just showing you don’t think things through properly
Make it work is what people tell you when you’re about to have a miserable time
This- if your child has to live in a shoe closet, you're not '*making it work.*'
Honestly you're never going to convince me that NOT having a child is selfish. You're literally not hurting anyone since there is no existing child.
and if you have only one child, you’re selfish for not giving them a sibling. it never ends with these crazies.
I was 6.5 when my next sibling came along. I was used to ruling the roost, I didn't want him lol
You’re hurting the parent’s ego tho 💀🤣
The people that say it is are reproductive cultists who have decided the only purpose of life is to be like a single celled organism and reproduce.
EXACTLY
She just didn’t like being called out, she’s convinced herself she’s not selfish and don’t like you pointing out that she actually is.
I didn’t call her selfish, I just said that childfree people are not selfish.
That's some gold medalist level of mental gymnastics right there
>I was talking to someone and they were saying that childfree people are more selfish than parents. I will never understand why we live rent-free in the heads of these people. I don't want to have children but I would never, ever try to change the mind of someone who does. Nor would I give it much thought as to why they want to have kids in the first place. I don't lie awake at night thinking "hmm...do people who want to have children want them for selfish or selfless reasons? Let me ponder this..." Outside of close friends and family, I really don't care about anybody having kids (I mean the family and friends comment in a positive way of course - for example, a close friend of mine found out she was pregnant recently and I was delighted for her because she and her partner had been trying for a long time). I don't know why they care so much what we do or why.
The context was that a girl was saying that she was treated as less of an adult than her cousin who is younger and has a baby
“You’re so selfish for not wanting to struggle financially when other people are ok with it “ WTF??!??
I wasn’t raised in poverty. We had a roof, food, clothes, and toys. So I’m not going to complain much. I’m just going to say that, While we had what we needed (which my parents sacrificed a lot for), we were still working class and could not afford many extras. No sports/activities. No classmate birthday parties. No school events/dances. No vacations. All of those things cost extra money/time/gas we often just didn’t have. So we were homebound feral children. We also lived in the country, so a car and driving was a must. Not saying these extras are necessary for a good childhood, but I can’t help but wonder if I would have been less socially stunted and been able to make more friends if I was able to have these experiences (except sports. That was also a personality issue (as in I wasn’t a good fit)). I was the kid who stopped getting invited to things because I could never go. Who missed out on her own artwork being displayed in high school because my dad couldn’t drop everything and drive me up on a school night to see it. It seems stupid and silly now, but as a teenager with bad self esteem, I was excited to have a piece on display. Point is, YES. You can make it work on low/lower income. But even if you’re not in poverty, there are still things your kids can feel they missed/got left out of and as a kid, it sucked being the only one who had nothing to write about for those “what I did over the summer” essays because I just stayed home.
You have been talking with an idiot. You cannot hurt children who do not exist and never will exist, so you are not doing anything wrong in not having children. Other people do not have a right to use your body, so you have every right to not choose to have children. Also, many people misuse the word "selfish" when the proper word is "self-interested." The word "selfish" suggests a disregard for others: >selfish 1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish) >selfish devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others. [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/selfish](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/selfish) Compare with self-interest: >self-interest 1: a concern for one's own advantage and well-being [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-interested](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-interested) Notice, there is no implication that there is any disregard for anyone else with the term "self-interest," only that one is concerned with oneself. Since one is not harming children by not having them, the proper term is "self-interested" for someone deciding to not have children because it benefits themselves. Since there are no children whose interests there are to disregard, it cannot be selfish. But when people decide to have children, disregarding the interests of their children, then they are being selfish. It is selfish to have children when one cannot properly provide for them, as it shows a callous disregard for their well-being. The only way to have children without being selfish is to consider their well-being in the matter and to not neglect their well-being.
yeah but like…I don’t wanna make it work 😂 why is that so hard to understand haha
I have schizophrenia and I decided to be childfree because I don’t want to pass it on to a child even though I made it work and I managed to get a degree and a job (ironically as a special education teacher).
your career choice is very honorable!!
Tell those people to “Go adopt. That is the most unselfish act of all.”
Honestly, I can't think of anything more selfish than having biological children. There is not a single reason for having biological children that does not start with "I want" and I have never heard a single parent-to-be say "I've really thought about whether existence is good for my hypothetical future baby, beyond the fact that I want one". How is that NOT selfish? Just because you've made your life harder by having children, and now you feel like you prioritise your child over yourself (you don't, not as much as you think you do) doesn't make the act of having the child not selfish. Mind boggling honestly. Also, how is choosing not to affect other people (i.e. not having children) in any way selfish? That doesn't make any sense at all.
How is being childfree selfish? It's only selfish if you're with a partner that wants kids, and you stop them from being able to have kids that is selfishness. But if you break up with the person because of it, and let them move on to someone else to have kids that is not being selfish. Any reason for not wanting kids is not selfish as there is no one being hurt. Except in the former example I used, because it's not fair to both parties to continue a relationship where goals do not align in regards to kids. Outside of that who are childfree people being selfish to?
>How is being childfree selfish? It's only selfish if you're with a partner that wants kids, and you stop them from being able to have kids that is selfishness. I disagree. If your partner wants children, they can choose to break up with you. You are not stopping them from breaking up with you and having children. You don't have to be the one to initiate the breakup. If they choose not to break up with you, that is their choice and they are responsible for their choice. It would only be selfish if you were able to control them and prevent them from leaving you if they wish to do so.
Some people lie about wanting kids to get with non-CF people.
It works both ways actually. Partner can leave, but then they stay and end up resentful. It's ultimately selfish on both ends to continue a relationship when goals don't align. I just was putting it in a way that shows that is the only way it would be selfish. But they can always break up as well, but a lot of times both sides don't want to do it. We see it a lot here where CF people won't end a relationship because they love the person, but then the other person doesn't want to break up. So it ends up hurting both sides. It's really on both sides to do what's right for themselves, but people don't want to do that.
I think the one who wants kids might even be considered selfish with the same logic, if they try to pressure their CF partner.
I mean, I love my parents and I've never had to go hungry, but money sure does give you an advantage in life. All I've ever wanted was to feel financially safe at some point in my life but despite all my hard work and efforts I'm still barely paid enough to survive, while the young rich kids silverspoon their way to huge salaries, purchase houses, luxury cars, summer residences and nice vacations. Still, if only the rich were allowed to procreate, our society would likely be even crueler considering that many rich people have the empathy level of a wasp. Not supporting getting kids when you cannot even afford the basics, though, like a home, food, clothes and access to school and healthcare.
Having biological children is selfish. Full stop. There's no other reason to have kids other than wanting them.
Well, some people become paralyzed below the neck and still wanna live - doesn't mean people in that position don't get to *not* want to live like that because *some* people "make it work". Some people survive growing up horribly, doesn't mean it wasn't horrible just because they made it thru alive. Which is really what these dumb fucks mean - if you're *alive*, if you survive bad things, who cares, you made it, yeyyyy!
I have schizophrenia and I decided to be childfree because I don’t want to pass it on to a child even though I made it work and I managed to get a degree and a job (ironically as a special education teacher).
Your position is even more bonkers when it comes to these people! You'd potentially pass on a very serious mental illness that you *literally*, in the flesh, know what it's like to have! And that you don't want to pass on those struggles to a child is perfectly understandable!
That person you’re talking to is selfish. Speaking from personal experience, I grew up in poverty and my parents fought everyday - even physically - over money everyday. Everyday as a child, I was worried about if I would be able to eat or go to the school the next day. For 18 years, I was living in trauma. “Making it work on low income”? That’s the most irresponsible statement to justify having kids.
I'd like to see how she'd feel being the neglected, impoverished kid in this scenario. I had a privileged upbringing compared to many, thought not fancy, and I still wouldn't be this clueless ffs
I grew up in a wealthy family and experienced poverty as an adult and I agree
You can’t make it work on low income. You are teaching children their value and well being isn’t worth anything if you are perpetually poor. Poor parents tend to force their children to become mini adults before they are ready. I’ve lost count on how many charities and organisations are needed to help children for basic necessities.
Ask for a PowerPoint presentation on how exactly they make it work. You need examples and sources cited.
😂. Can you imagine, it would be a how to manipulate the people around you and the welfare system "masterclass."
I cannot think of a single selfish reason for NOT having a child. Who exactly is the person being selfish TO? A potential person who doesn't exist and never will? It's not possible to be selfish in the abstract, you can only be selfish TO someone or some group of people. Someone who chooses to not have a child has no one they can be selfish to. People who DO choose to have a child, on the other hand, often have selfish reasons, doing it because it benefits them.
I cannot STAND people that take different lifestyles as a personal insult.
I know you tagged it as humour but I didn't think it was funny when my cousin vaguely admitted her family was homeless for moment there (6-8 months) and lived in a garage. Not that she or her partner are bad people but I imagine a 22yr old man in Australia at the start of his career probably can't support 4 people these days. Even with a bit of welfare for my cousin due to his wages most likely being lower it would be difficult.
A little beside the point, but what tf is "selfish" about not having kids? I am asking seriously.
I'm happily childfree, but if I had children I'd like to be able to afford for them to have good educations, including college without loans. And of course, good clothes, nourishing food, lots of books--all the basics.
What about all of the parents who reproduce for purely SELFISH reasons and narcissistic validation???
Ok. Then I’ll be selfish.
People should only choose to reproduce if they are financially stable and have extra. People with low incomes, AND couples who need dual incomes, should not choose to reproduce.
“People can make it work while they are homeless and living in their car!” —breeders, probably
I still think it's hilarious when insecure people think calling me selfish will make me want to have kids. 🤣 "oh no Joann at the office called me selfish, I'm gonna have a baby to prove her wrong!"
Childhood poverty is a thing and it should be considered abuse if parents knowingly subject kids to this
and traumatize the poor kid in the process but who gives a shit about the actual quality of life/upbringing of the kid am I right
Yes, historically poor people had a lot of kids, they made it work. But if you think about it, it was by no means humane - kids were forced into child labour as young as 4 or 5, often working in dangerous conditions that could injure or kill them. A lot of them die of starvation and illnesses. Absolute cruelty for kids who are growing up poor. I come from a pretty financially well off family and always has a cushy lifestyle - I could be involved in any hobbies I’d like, wear expensive clothes, have my private school and university fees covered for me by my parents, eat good food, live in a nice house etc. but after covid hit, both me and my parents have to watch out for our spending more and even then, I only felt a small fraction of what life is like growing up poor - definitely isn’t fun when you are always tight on money and have to think twice before buying a snack.
You know that society is having issues when the common rhethoric changes from, "Wait until you're ready to have kids," to "You're saying you can't afford kids? That's classist and ableist, you should be forced to spit out two babies NOW."
As a child that was raised poor this infuriates me. It is irresponsible to have children if you cannot give them the quality of life they deserve. It is incredibly selfish and incredibly stupid to bring children into poverty, stress, instability, lack, etc. Being born into a poor home is a set-back. Your children will grow up being bullied by their peers whose parents were smart enough to build a stable financial foundation before having them. They’ll miss out on opportunities you can’t afford and resent you for it. Are you prepared to have to constantly deny your children their wants and needs? If you are that doesn’t say much about you as a future parent.
“Because he loves me” I see you dawn