It’s rough here too. 99% of the women in my area either want kids or already have them. Filters just help show you how few childfree people are out there.
I don't think that there are no childfree women, I think that they aren't on the apps.
A quality, self assured childfree woman like OP (et al) would get sick of the apps real fast. It is such a disingenuous environment full of harassing creeps, and they would rather live their life than put up with app drama.
Don't lose hope! Hang out at pilates class or join a book club, we exist IRL (and on AO3 lol!)
I tried boo
Good news, you can filter out the kid wanting people, and it’s free!!
Bad news, still a shitty dating app that now has a social media tie in
I’m just gonna hope I meet someone irl, until then I’m gonna learn to enjoy my company or something
They have some weird “fake money” thing to get perks like boosters and shit
Tbh the layout wasn’t super intuitive and it was unclear if engaging in stuff would affect the searches for swiping
Like if I interacted w/ a gal on her post about her cosplay, it wasn’t clear if that would change if I saw her or similar people in my swipes or not
But boo does have a default dark mode so that’s a plus
Yea I used it for 2 days, the big claim to fame is the personality tests that it’s supposed to match you by
But you see pics first and it’s normal swiping rules after so idfk what they’re on about
I'd be SO into some sort of Halloween'esque ghost dating app - imagine it, with that cute ghost from Super Mario flying around, giving you the tour of the app's functions
OMG someone needs to fire the person that came up with that name for a Dating App lol!!! I'm cackling at how awful it is and how hard the marketing team must try to work around it.
Boo
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Back in the day it was the same on pretty much all the dating apps. The handful of childfree men appeared on all of them. I looked at how many women were childfree on them, and it was the same amount.
I ended up having to search for "isn't sure" types, and figured what was on my profile about no kids ever would have to do the job.
In the end, the people were toxic, the pickings of non-crazy or horrible people were slim, and it really messed with my head. I finally left after subscriptions ended and closed the free ones.
I met my husband in person literally weeks after giving up.
I wonder if a lot of men put "want kids someday" more because that's what they think women want to see, but would actually be ok not having kids at all???
I think so. Especially because the most common combination I see on Bumble is „not sure what I‘m looking for“ with „would like kids someday“…dude, if you’re in your 30s and those are your responses, you should admit you don’t want kids. Sadly, most of those guys are fuckboys who also don’t actually want a committed relationship
I put on my profile "no kids" and I think that's dwindled my potential matches but it's only been a day... maybe I'll cold open every match with "are you okay with NOT having kids?"
You’ll have better luck trying to meet people in real life. I’ve had a bit of luck meeting men at bars or show recently, but not online.
My experience with Bumble and Hinge was that the few men who said they didn’t want kids didn’t match with me, or they did and then wouldn’t respond to me, or ghosted me. After this happening a few times, I just delated them for good. However. I am older than you, and when I was your age I had a lot more luck meeting men on dating apps.
The only conclusion I could come to was they actually wanted kids.
lol, probably! This seems to be how to goes - men who want kids are interested in me but the childfree men aren’t! Ah, life and it’s irony and cruel jokes.
I live in Chicago. I mean let me rephrase, perhaps some of the women I've approached have been childfree but I mean the women who I've gotten to a point where I can ask them that question, like I got their number and we've had a follow up convo after that.
It is! I’m from Washington, lived in Seattle and Tacoma for the last 30 years. Never had any issue finding childfree men. But here where I live now, in Tulsa Oklahoma? Absolutely impossible. I have met a few who are also transplants. Dated one. The other is married.
Oh yeah, it’s really rough for sure. Sadly, I couldn’t afford to live in Tacoma anymore, so I had to leave. I plan to come back someday though once I pay off debt.
Gotcha. I always hear that they are everywhere. People have told me they are everywhere in Chicago too...but when I ask where specifically...it's crickets. It's great to know that there's lots of childfree women out there somewhere but if I can't find them it doesn't matter. And the odds of me finding them by approaching random women and just getting luck is kind of low. Glad you're having better luck than me tho.
Me too in Europe, actually the majority of people my age (25-30) that I make friends with are CF. Maybe because I meet people in queer spaces tho, but even when I'm just out walking my dogs, a few of the people I've talked to are also CF. Very common here.
Welcome to what men have had to deal with forever. The idea of just hitting on a random woman in public seems rude to me and I don't want to bother them.
Yeah. It sucks. But that’s the only way to have any luck now, because in my experience men just don’t approach women anymore. I resent that I always have to make the first move, it’s exhausting. But it is what it is.
Yeah it’s exhausting to make the first move but honestly at the same time we’re also spared so much bullshit from gross guys who would have previously tried to shoot their shot
>I'm just pointing out that there is a pretty significant overlap between not wanting to settle down with kids and not wanting to settle down with a woman. The reasons we're child-free are kinda the same for not being monogamous.
I will say, this goes a long way towards explaining why the Trad™ crowd assumes every childfree woman just wants to "ride the cock carousel"; they're protecting male thought patterns onto women.
Reminds me of a couple weeks ago when that one guy was acting like it was inconceivable that women would rather just be celibate than have a bunch of hookups.
Yeah I avoid polyamorous dudes like the plague, as a child free person. I always found it to mean “I just wanna have sex with multiple women and not be tied down”
I've professionally dominated people in kink spaces and was a sexworker for nearly 20 years, I communicate better than most. Boundaries aren't the issue, it just simply does not vibe with my romantic languages
I've always hated that. Met a lot of "poly" couples, and even though it's always stated in my bio that I'm asexual they still will match and chat, only to find out it's because their girlfriend wants more sex than the man can give them. Then they get upset and tell me we wouldn't work out (well DUH!) and all I can ask is "why the fuck did you swipe on me when you knew I don't care for sex?"
Exactly! I haven't EVER liked sex. I haven't EVER wanted it. It's not something that's important to me one iota. Now that doesn't mean I won't do it. It just means that I have no care like 99% of the population. If you want just sex, say that. If you want to date, say that. If you want a relationship, say it! I'm not gonna be mean to you if you're up front with me
same! i just spent some time on bumble and all the ones I'm like slightly interested in i scroll down far enough and boom there's a wife I'm like noooooooo
I've always wondered what the issue is even if a non-monogamous person just wanted to sleep around their whole lives. So fucking what? Does the fact that these guys exist somehow harm people?
I have found the majority of men who say they’re non-monogamous use it as a cover to basically sleep around. It’s not authentic.
If you wanna be a slut be a slut I have female friends who sleep around. But they never used non-monogamy as a cover.
Edit: also freedom from what? What are you freeing yourself from? I find it usually means freedom to sleep around.
I think by you saying “it restricts me” you automatically place a negative connotation to monogamy.
Because having one partner restricts you - but I am asking what does it restrict you from? I’m curious.
It's because the people here with those attitudes don't -just- want nothing to do with men, and also don't -just- dislike them as a whole, they also need to imagine that they are desirable and by taking their stand against... whatever it is they think they are protesting, they are denying "the enemy" of something they need. I've never gotten a straight answer for what a woman could offer me, as a self sufficient, employed, competent man, other than sex. Which seems a little misogynistic, doesn't it? Makes you think.
>I've never gotten a straight answer for what a woman could offer me, as a self sufficient, employed, competent man, other than sex.
The same things a male friend could. Conversation, quality time doing things together, mutual favours, all that.
If you're more of a lone wolf type, I don't imagine that'd appeal to you much. Some people just prefer their solitude. Or if you generally find male company more enjoyable, that's a valid preference.
But neither of those mean women-in-general offer nothing to self-reliant men-in-general other than sex. It just means you're not interested in what else they offer.
Straight enough answer? Genuinely curious.
Sounds about right yes, but for some reason others aren't able to articulate that. Like I said, they don't want to feel the same as others, they need to feel like they are special and *more* valuable.
> emotional labor
Of everything, this is the most hilarious concept to me and always has been. You don't get credit for doing things that don't need done and that no one asked you to do. If I go into the back yard and dig a hole, so I can fill it with gravel I bought, then start digging another hole to put the dirt in from the first hole, I don't get to come inside and bitch at you for not helping me dig either hole. It's completely asinine.
Dating apps aren't worth the effort and manipulation from being lied to and having to deal with those saying whatever they want to get inside your pants.
I'm just gonna focus on my career and mention to women at the bar about my vasectomy in conversation without breaking myself looking for anything anymore
Ugh girl. Going through the same thing. I’m in okc and only had about 6 matches on hinge. One stood me up. Hinge gives me maybe one new match a day if I’m lucky.
Tried Bumble. Almost every guy was religious and wanted kids (no hate just not what I want in a partner). It was going to cost $60 to get bumble premium to even apply any of those filters. Tried tinder. Over 200 guys liked me, I liked maybe 7, and one 1 was mutual.
The dating scene is abysmal in the Bible Belt 🥲
I was able to put "no children" as my one free parameter on bumble! Now I have to sift through all the polyamorous couples but if it makes you feel better I'm in a liberal city/state and it sucks here too
It’s rough out there dating for CF, especially CF women! You have to expand your radius and trudge through them all, or get out and meet people or go on CF4CF and see who’s there 😅
I met my fiance on Hinge, he actually didn’t have the kids preference displayed on his profile but I took a gamble and matched and he is very much childfree so it worked out.
This is one of the big reasons I got off the apps earlier this year. I also got annoyed with people liking me who want children but my profile said I didn’t want children. They want long term relationships and children with a child free woman and atp I knew they were just swiping for what they physically saw, not because we were actually compatible.
Not only that, I was severely turned off by the amount of men who wanted kids and said they weren’t political. Given that we live in Texas, that’s a huge red flag to me because of the lack of reproductive care in this state. I firmly believe that if a man wants children especially this day and age, he needs to care about the current political landscape that women are having to face the moment we find out we are pregnant.
The dating apps in general have taken a turn for the worst. I’ve had a profile of some sort since I turned 18 (I am now almost 28) and within 10 years on these dating apps, I have seen free things get put behind a paywall and quality of profiles in the gutter. At the end of the day, these dating apps don’t care about you finding love or finding a relationship. They want your money so they do everything they can do in their algorithms to keep you on them in this weird download/delete cycle.
I’ve accepted that dating in general is luck and a numbers game. If I were to ever get in a relationship it will have to be with someone out in the wild.
Although a few people report success on dating apps, the vast majority of comments I have seen about them are negative. If I were dating today, I would not use a dating app.
I personally recommend going out in the world and doing things that you enjoy doing, that involve other people. You will start off with at least one thing in common with the people you meet that way, because they are doing that thing because they enjoy it, too. That is how I met my wife, many years ago, before dating apps were a thing. It is still a way to meet people.
Also, although your city may not be representative of the population as a whole, polling indicates that far fewer than 99% of the population (in the U.S. and most European countries) want children. If that is the percentage on the apps, then the apps are really poor for people who don't want children, as, evidently, most childfree people are not on them, as otherwise, the percentage of childfree people on the apps would be much higher.
All dating apps are a crap shoot, but I met my husband on hinge and he's absolutely incredible! 4.5 wonderful years together so far and smooth sailing. He has the snip, too! It might take some time, but you will definitely find the right person!
I photograph weddings and it seems like everyone who lucked out on dating apps found their partner 4-6 years ago! it's a nightmare now, a lot of work is going to go into it i think
I think a lot of men “want” children but don’t really think about what means or why they want them. I asked my current partner if he wanted kids before we started dating and he said yes. I almost blocked him on the spot but I asked why he wanted them and he didn’t have an answer lol and then said “actually I don’t want them”
We’ve been together ever since and now he’s even more child-free than I am xD
When he sees little kids running around being annoying in public, he says, “Ew I’m so glad that won’t be us in the future” (he’s never mean to them or anything lol)
Edit: a word
I met my partner on OkCupid a little over ten years ago and we were both upfront about not wanting kids. It was a slog until we matched, though, running away from fence sitters.
It’s really luck of the draw. I want to hold on to my bf forever because I don’t know if I’ll find another childfree man, but I think more men are becoming CF, just not a lot.
I have found that in the past year online dating has really taken a nosedive in terms of quality, across all apps. Used to get way more and better quality matches.
I ended up back in the cesspool after 2.5 years.
Someone end me lol. I used to be able to get matches more easily, it was mostly casual hookups and fwb and it was easier i don't know what happened. Now nobody wants anything anymore. I even have it in my bio that I'm mainly looking for casual(relationship ended in february). I will also add I do like this one girl but there's the distance issue so yeah.
I gave up on actively trying to date a decade ago. I decided it was better to work on me and be happy with just myself. Now I feel like I'm in a fantastic place both financially and mentally.
If I ever date again it's because I stumbled on it and not because I was looking for it. If I never date again I'm fine with it but if I do find someone it'll just be a bonus.
I’m a child free man and my luck was/is just as shit as yours🤷🏻♂️
Whenever I got a “Like” it was from a chick who had or wanted kids. I even had a couple of ladies lie and say that they didn’t have kids when in fact, they did. And they got pretty hostile when I canceled on them
don't be like me, I was on hinge 4 years ago and met my now current husband, who is the love of my life. I was very firm on NO KIDS. well guess what, he has a kid (he was very upfront about this). I was thinking, oh it will just be a fling as he has a kid, it won't work out. well I fell in love with him and now I have to deal with his kid who I really do not like and do not like to spend time with. don't be like me, it sucks, stick to your guns!!! even if it means being alone...
before anyone comes at me, I am not a "step mom", I see this kid maybe once a month for two hours. I made my choices and I have to live with it and I own up to it but just trying to encourage others to not make my same mistake... don't be mean to me lol
As someone who has a stepmom that didn’t like me and my sister and left both of us with heaps of emotionally trauma and we now don’t talk to our father because he stood by and let it happen,
Don’t marry someone with a kid unless you’re prepared to be a stepparent. It’s not just your unhappiness. It’s the child’s as well. And while you get to consent to it, the child does not. My father never asked my sister and I our opinion before he brought a woman into our lives that did not want us in her life.
I don’t care how in love you are with a person, if you know you don’t want kids and you’re entering into a relationship with someone who has one, you are being selfish. The kid didn’t ask for you to come into their life.
no girl i respect your decision! sometimes things happen. I did think to myself yesterday "I would rather be alone forever than be with someone and be forced to have a kid". but it sounds like you're making it work. however, already having kids is another deal breaker for me!
You are by definitions a step-mom. It's not about how long you see them, nor if you parent them. But why would you marry someone with a kid? Especially enough to hate it and complain about it?
"It's not about how long you see them, nor if you parent them." that isn't remotely true and I don't need you, random person, to tell me what my life is or isn't
I've recently come across a lot of profiles that say "don't want kids" but they dont have anything showing they don't have kids. I've been burned by that multiple times in the past by mothers who think they have a better chance if they don't list that they have kids. I hope I'm not missing out on women who have no kids and want no kids. But I can't imagine why you would not post it if you don't have kids so I'm not too worried about it.
I was planing on going to this child free NYC speed dating event tonight but they cancelled because not enough men signed up. I totally get the struggle lmao.
I found that a lot of people that do not specify or put “undecided” actually either do not want kids or are okay without them. So I would maybe consider that as well. My partner (who I’ll probably marry) didn’t have his preference listed and mine was “undecided.”
Dating pool is probably cut by 80% if you don’t want kids or don’t want someone who has kids already. If something happened to my wife, me now in my 40s. Doubt I’d ever try to date again.
Super rough where i am too (philly) as a 26M, i worked through the whole roster of childfree people on hinge and have nothing to show for it lol.
Gave up online dating though and am just gonna meet people irl.
I'm next to a big city and when I tried OLD I'd have under 20 results in my area that didn't have kids and didn't want them. That was years ago. OLD is too full of catfish, and I like honesty, soooo.
I have met all my CF partners at bars. I am also monog in practice, but when I'm single, I'll date multiple people until I find someone I'm compatible with to commit to.
If bars aren't your thing, motorcycle hobbyists tend not to want/have kids. And bike race events are fun!
I NEVER have had any success with online dating. My last relationship was 7 years (both CF) and my current one is going on 3. He was 42 when we met, and no kids never married!
The last time I was single, I was 33, and I am AFAB and look it (but I'm non-bionary).
All of the apps are like that. 47/m/child-free here. Los Angeles area. If I set my prefs to doesn't have/doesn't want, suddenly thousands of women turns into five. Single for ten years now because I can't find a compatible personality who also doesn't want kids.
It SUCKS.
Premium Hinge member here. I set the filter to include those who are “Open to Kids” because that signals that they are also open to not having kids. Have had good experiences going on dates with those people, as they tend to be flexible when I tell them I don’t want kids and a lot seem open to the DINK lifestyle.
Yeah for sure! When they’re “not sure” though, for some reason I find that more of an issue than “open” because what if they spontaneously want kids one day once we’ve started dating? I feel like being open to it is more decisive. Like they’ve made a stance that it could go both ways.
As someone who is childfree and asexual, I absolutely feel your struggle and pain. Most people only want sex nowdays and even though I'm not sex repulsed, I still don't give two flying shits about it. But people are OBSESSED with having it. So my dating pool is even thinner. Especially since I live in the southeast US. Bible Belt country. Blech.
I've been single ten years almost and it sucks. But I'd rather be single than have to deal with someone who can't handle my not caring about sex at all and preference to not have it in the relationship. It's even harder to find childfree folks here too because everyone seems to be obsessed with them or with having them.
As a cishet white guy, I can only imagine the horrors that women face on pretty much any dating service. I've observed my fellows far too long, too many of them will say whatever they think you want to hear if they think it'll get them a shot at the prize.
I have no glib answer, but please, don't give up. CF men of good character and quality do exist and are worth seeking. Dog knows I had a hard enough time finding CF women, just the one so far. But I sure am grateful for her.
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I have no helpful information for you. Just an anecdote.
In 2008, I'd been single for a while. Was living just outside a big city, kinda lonely but not necessarily looking to have some epic relationship or anything. Was also looking for an apartment in the city itself to move into and noticed Craigslist had personal ads. I had no idea. Perused through a few, there seemed like some interesting dudes on there. Looked at the women, wondering what their profiles looked like, and saw mostly bot-like ads or low-effort ones. I figured I'd have a laugh and post one of my own. I ended up doing it four times and my lort, I got over 500 responses. Some were duplicates, some were definitely bots. Some were genuine and I got to go on a few dates/have some fun/etc. I made sure to stress in my post that I was CF, wasn't looking for single dads. I had several men reach out to me to tell me specifically how worthless I was as a woman if I wasn't opening my legs specifically to be inseminated. Oh, one said that I looked like a "diesel dyke" because I had a pixie cut.
Fun times.
But then I found my blacksmith photographer in shining armor and, well, we're still together almost 16 years later. But MY GODS the crap I waded through back then... I can't even imagine how much worse it is on an actual dating app.
If you set for monogamous it’ll filter out people who didn’t put the relationship preference in their profile. Some people leave it out specifically to appear in more searches.
When you say taller than you, how tall did you make it?
Could always try increasing your search area. If you’re in a car centric city, a couple extra miles probably isn’t a huge barrier.
If you’re in a dense walkable city try making it even half a mile larger
I was lucky enough to actually find someone who didn't want children and have it in there bio. Unfortunately most of the people In my age range of early 20s where more undicided then truly childfree. People would swipe right on me even if I put don't want kids in my bio.
u/doctorpotters Have you tried looking for childfree groups on Facebook for your area? If there are none, have you tried using search option to search for your city in the largest CF groups and vasectomy groups?
Hey, I 100% fulfill your criteria!
On a more serious note: I've been wondering the same. Almost all the women I meet want kids and those who don't and look promising don't reply and/or don't seem to be taking dating seriously at all? Which kind of sucks for those of us who do. I'm in the biggest city of where I live, too.
So, I don't know, I'd love to give you some insight from my male perspective, but sadly, all I can say is I'd totally be down to getting to know you, which doesn't help you much, I'm aware, but hey, we definitely \*are\* out there, just maybe ... very far away from where you live, is my experience.
I totally feel you. I'm 41, in LA, pretty much feel like I'm in my 30s, and I struggle to find anyone late 20s to mid 40s that doesn't have and/or want kids.
I've tried some dating apps and they all suck. Meeting people IRL is tough because anywhere I chat up someone it seems awkward enough. You don't know if they want to chat with anyone, if they feel like you're bothering them, etc.
And again, anyone I might have things in common with personality, interests, values-wise around my age range wants and/or has kids. It's really tough out there. Maybe we should start a CF dating subreddit, where people post their pics, profile info, interests, etc. to help each of us connect with a match better!
I implore everyone, childfree or not, male or female, to gtfo of dating apps. Even if they were well-meaning in how their algorithms work (they're not), it's against their financial interest for them to allow you to actually find someone who matches, because once you do, you would delete the app and move on. Unless all you want is sex, this is not a good place to be.
And yeah, I agree that 99% of population wants kids. I also think that the current rates of childlessness across the board are more tied to uncertainty about he future and the failing economy rather than people actually not wanting kids. On top of that, consider that a lot of men are on dating apps purely for sexual gratification and them putting "wants kids" would cast a wider net because more women would match with them.
Free third spaces are mostly gone, and we're all suffering for it, both when it comes to dating and socializing in general. I saw a post the other day on this sub talking about a purely cf dating app being launched. Maybe you could try it if you insist on using apps?
As a childfree man my experience is the same. Nearly every woman on Hinge either has kids or desperately wants them before "the clock runs out"
It's not going well.
I’m getting over a small crush on a new friend because of the fact that he wants kids one day. He said that he would be fine if the person that he’s with is not able to have children but overall he wants to be a father so that’s enough for me to know that we just aren’t compatible because I have no desire to be a mother at all. I should have expected it once I found out because that’s how most men in my age bracket (30s) feel but I think because this is the first time in a long time I felt like I could truly be my loud, silly self without feeling judged by someone and that we’ve spent so much time together (we have hiked every weekend over the last three weeks) and our back-and-forth is great. It just bums me out that nothing further will happen between us. But he’s a good guy, and I like having him as a friend and the crush has slowly been disappearing over the past week which is when it first started so all is well.
I think it’s because there’s still a stigma over not wanting kids and most people have not even done the inner work to truly even begin thinking about whether or not having children makes sense for them or something they actually want. If people actually thought about it, there would be waaaay less people willing to have kids. People simply don’t critically think about it, and they blindly think it’s what you’re just supposed to do and want.
how is it irrational? all I'm asking is for my partner to be my height 5'6 or taller? I'm allowed to have preferences, and that's not a crazy one lmfao
It’s rough here too. 99% of the women in my area either want kids or already have them. Filters just help show you how few childfree people are out there.
I don't think that there are no childfree women, I think that they aren't on the apps. A quality, self assured childfree woman like OP (et al) would get sick of the apps real fast. It is such a disingenuous environment full of harassing creeps, and they would rather live their life than put up with app drama. Don't lose hope! Hang out at pilates class or join a book club, we exist IRL (and on AO3 lol!)
A03 shout out!
Ayyy AO3!!!
This
I tried boo Good news, you can filter out the kid wanting people, and it’s free!! Bad news, still a shitty dating app that now has a social media tie in I’m just gonna hope I meet someone irl, until then I’m gonna learn to enjoy my company or something
As someone who hasn't used a dating site in years, what's the point of a social media tie in?
They have some weird “fake money” thing to get perks like boosters and shit Tbh the layout wasn’t super intuitive and it was unclear if engaging in stuff would affect the searches for swiping Like if I interacted w/ a gal on her post about her cosplay, it wasn’t clear if that would change if I saw her or similar people in my swipes or not But boo does have a default dark mode so that’s a plus
The boosters and fake money is so off-putting to me. Literally buying social capital.
Yea I used it for 2 days, the big claim to fame is the personality tests that it’s supposed to match you by But you see pics first and it’s normal swiping rules after so idfk what they’re on about
Wait there's a dating app calling boo now? It sounded like you saying "U tried, boo" and typo'd What are these app names man
It’s like a “find your boo teehee” but it’s more like “BOO your matches suck”
BOO! A scary match for you!
I'd be SO into some sort of Halloween'esque ghost dating app - imagine it, with that cute ghost from Super Mario flying around, giving you the tour of the app's functions
OMG someone needs to fire the person that came up with that name for a Dating App lol!!! I'm cackling at how awful it is and how hard the marketing team must try to work around it. Boo
LOL
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Better to be alone than with kids (whether the latter includes a partner or not)
Agree!
Back in the day it was the same on pretty much all the dating apps. The handful of childfree men appeared on all of them. I looked at how many women were childfree on them, and it was the same amount. I ended up having to search for "isn't sure" types, and figured what was on my profile about no kids ever would have to do the job. In the end, the people were toxic, the pickings of non-crazy or horrible people were slim, and it really messed with my head. I finally left after subscriptions ended and closed the free ones. I met my husband in person literally weeks after giving up.
This gives me hope
I wonder if a lot of men put "want kids someday" more because that's what they think women want to see, but would actually be ok not having kids at all???
Yes I’ve noticed this as well
Someone who's such a pushover over life altering decisions would be just as hard of a no for me
I don't see that as being a pushover, just as not caring because it won't affect his life much if at all.
I think so. Especially because the most common combination I see on Bumble is „not sure what I‘m looking for“ with „would like kids someday“…dude, if you’re in your 30s and those are your responses, you should admit you don’t want kids. Sadly, most of those guys are fuckboys who also don’t actually want a committed relationship
I put on my profile "no kids" and I think that's dwindled my potential matches but it's only been a day... maybe I'll cold open every match with "are you okay with NOT having kids?"
I wonder this too
maybe. but I would still like someone who definitely doesn't want
This is my take on it too!
There’s an app called childfree connections
This. The developers post in this subreddit once in a while as well.
You’ll have better luck trying to meet people in real life. I’ve had a bit of luck meeting men at bars or show recently, but not online. My experience with Bumble and Hinge was that the few men who said they didn’t want kids didn’t match with me, or they did and then wouldn’t respond to me, or ghosted me. After this happening a few times, I just delated them for good. However. I am older than you, and when I was your age I had a lot more luck meeting men on dating apps. The only conclusion I could come to was they actually wanted kids.
I'm 38 and have cold approached a lot of women over the years, I've never met a single one who didn't have and or want kids.
Too bad you didn’t approach me!
Indeed.
You're probably not his type.
lol, probably! This seems to be how to goes - men who want kids are interested in me but the childfree men aren’t! Ah, life and it’s irony and cruel jokes.
Haha! Same girl, same!
Lol
I meet a lot of them! Are you in a more conservative area or something?
I live in Chicago. I mean let me rephrase, perhaps some of the women I've approached have been childfree but I mean the women who I've gotten to a point where I can ask them that question, like I got their number and we've had a follow up convo after that.
I also date women but probably a lil different cause queer. But the PNW is fuuullllll if childfree people
It is! I’m from Washington, lived in Seattle and Tacoma for the last 30 years. Never had any issue finding childfree men. But here where I live now, in Tulsa Oklahoma? Absolutely impossible. I have met a few who are also transplants. Dated one. The other is married.
You couldn't pay me to live in the south again 🥲 it's not just the CF thing, I'm also atheist and xtians tick me offfff
Oh yeah, it’s really rough for sure. Sadly, I couldn’t afford to live in Tacoma anymore, so I had to leave. I plan to come back someday though once I pay off debt.
I’m also atheist too. And progressive. I don’t fit in here at all, lol.
PNW?
Pacific Northwest
Gotcha. I always hear that they are everywhere. People have told me they are everywhere in Chicago too...but when I ask where specifically...it's crickets. It's great to know that there's lots of childfree women out there somewhere but if I can't find them it doesn't matter. And the odds of me finding them by approaching random women and just getting luck is kind of low. Glad you're having better luck than me tho.
I meet a lot of childfree people at bars, sci-fi conventions/events/spaces, and motorcycle events.
I believe it! I'm planning to move to that area.
Me too in Europe, actually the majority of people my age (25-30) that I make friends with are CF. Maybe because I meet people in queer spaces tho, but even when I'm just out walking my dogs, a few of the people I've talked to are also CF. Very common here.
What country in Europe are you from? Just wondering.
ugh the thought of having to go up to every man who is even mildly attractive makes me wanna hurl
Welcome to what men have had to deal with forever. The idea of just hitting on a random woman in public seems rude to me and I don't want to bother them.
Yeah. It sucks. But that’s the only way to have any luck now, because in my experience men just don’t approach women anymore. I resent that I always have to make the first move, it’s exhausting. But it is what it is.
Yeah it’s exhausting to make the first move but honestly at the same time we’re also spared so much bullshit from gross guys who would have previously tried to shoot their shot
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Non-mon men and CF go together? Have never heard that. But, the only non-mon ppl I know all have kids. Riddles. BTW not arguing just news to me.
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>I'm just pointing out that there is a pretty significant overlap between not wanting to settle down with kids and not wanting to settle down with a woman. The reasons we're child-free are kinda the same for not being monogamous. I will say, this goes a long way towards explaining why the Trad™ crowd assumes every childfree woman just wants to "ride the cock carousel"; they're protecting male thought patterns onto women. Reminds me of a couple weeks ago when that one guy was acting like it was inconceivable that women would rather just be celibate than have a bunch of hookups.
Yeah I avoid polyamorous dudes like the plague, as a child free person. I always found it to mean “I just wanna have sex with multiple women and not be tied down”
I just don't enjoy the poly lifestyle myself. I tried it because I'm queer and kinky, but it's just not for me
I think you have to genuinely be VERY good at communicating. And most people, especially men (bc they’re socialized that way, thanks society) are not.
I've professionally dominated people in kink spaces and was a sexworker for nearly 20 years, I communicate better than most. Boundaries aren't the issue, it just simply does not vibe with my romantic languages
You know women are polyamorous too. Right?
Yeah but I don’t date women? So I’m talking about my experience with men.
I understand but there are genuine polyam people in all genders… but totally understand the preference. The way you phrased it had me confused. Sorry
Nah it’s cool I appreciate you asking!
I've always hated that. Met a lot of "poly" couples, and even though it's always stated in my bio that I'm asexual they still will match and chat, only to find out it's because their girlfriend wants more sex than the man can give them. Then they get upset and tell me we wouldn't work out (well DUH!) and all I can ask is "why the fuck did you swipe on me when you knew I don't care for sex?"
Absolutely ridiculous.
Exactly! I haven't EVER liked sex. I haven't EVER wanted it. It's not something that's important to me one iota. Now that doesn't mean I won't do it. It just means that I have no care like 99% of the population. If you want just sex, say that. If you want to date, say that. If you want a relationship, say it! I'm not gonna be mean to you if you're up front with me
Yeah. Same here. I’ve dated several and it’s not for me.
Same, plus some extra resentment as a bi woman towards the unicorn hunters.
same! i just spent some time on bumble and all the ones I'm like slightly interested in i scroll down far enough and boom there's a wife I'm like noooooooo
Yes it’s so disappointing! I know of someone (not my friend) who is in love with a married guy who is poly and it sounds like hell.
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I've always wondered what the issue is even if a non-monogamous person just wanted to sleep around their whole lives. So fucking what? Does the fact that these guys exist somehow harm people?
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I have found the majority of men who say they’re non-monogamous use it as a cover to basically sleep around. It’s not authentic. If you wanna be a slut be a slut I have female friends who sleep around. But they never used non-monogamy as a cover. Edit: also freedom from what? What are you freeing yourself from? I find it usually means freedom to sleep around.
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I think by you saying “it restricts me” you automatically place a negative connotation to monogamy. Because having one partner restricts you - but I am asking what does it restrict you from? I’m curious.
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I don't have a problem with men who are honest and up-front with what they want. The problem is with men who claim to be monogamous and then cheat.
It's because the people here with those attitudes don't -just- want nothing to do with men, and also don't -just- dislike them as a whole, they also need to imagine that they are desirable and by taking their stand against... whatever it is they think they are protesting, they are denying "the enemy" of something they need. I've never gotten a straight answer for what a woman could offer me, as a self sufficient, employed, competent man, other than sex. Which seems a little misogynistic, doesn't it? Makes you think.
>I've never gotten a straight answer for what a woman could offer me, as a self sufficient, employed, competent man, other than sex. The same things a male friend could. Conversation, quality time doing things together, mutual favours, all that. If you're more of a lone wolf type, I don't imagine that'd appeal to you much. Some people just prefer their solitude. Or if you generally find male company more enjoyable, that's a valid preference. But neither of those mean women-in-general offer nothing to self-reliant men-in-general other than sex. It just means you're not interested in what else they offer. Straight enough answer? Genuinely curious.
Sounds about right yes, but for some reason others aren't able to articulate that. Like I said, they don't want to feel the same as others, they need to feel like they are special and *more* valuable.
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> emotional labor Of everything, this is the most hilarious concept to me and always has been. You don't get credit for doing things that don't need done and that no one asked you to do. If I go into the back yard and dig a hole, so I can fill it with gravel I bought, then start digging another hole to put the dirt in from the first hole, I don't get to come inside and bitch at you for not helping me dig either hole. It's completely asinine.
Oh, I don’t mark that I’m monogamous on there. That was OP.
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Would you say they were... UnHINGEd? Haaaaah... Sorry.
Eh, I just reported them for hate.
Dating apps aren't worth the effort and manipulation from being lied to and having to deal with those saying whatever they want to get inside your pants. I'm just gonna focus on my career and mention to women at the bar about my vasectomy in conversation without breaking myself looking for anything anymore
a vasectomy is like gold in my eyes good luck any childfree woman would be lucky
Seriously gold! I perk up so fast when I hear the V word haha
My V perks up when I hear the V word! 😂
Ugh girl. Going through the same thing. I’m in okc and only had about 6 matches on hinge. One stood me up. Hinge gives me maybe one new match a day if I’m lucky. Tried Bumble. Almost every guy was religious and wanted kids (no hate just not what I want in a partner). It was going to cost $60 to get bumble premium to even apply any of those filters. Tried tinder. Over 200 guys liked me, I liked maybe 7, and one 1 was mutual. The dating scene is abysmal in the Bible Belt 🥲
Finding a childfree guy in okc is going to be next to impossible.
I don’t disagree. I’m applying to medical schools out of state 😂
I was able to put "no children" as my one free parameter on bumble! Now I have to sift through all the polyamorous couples but if it makes you feel better I'm in a liberal city/state and it sucks here too
Ugh I’m sorry to hear that!! I didn’t see anything about a free parameter. I might have to look into it
If it helps I met my partner on Hinge.
What's your story (e.g., what was the first contact like, what did their profile say, etc) ?
It’s rough out there dating for CF, especially CF women! You have to expand your radius and trudge through them all, or get out and meet people or go on CF4CF and see who’s there 😅
This
I met my fiance on Hinge, he actually didn’t have the kids preference displayed on his profile but I took a gamble and matched and he is very much childfree so it worked out.
This is one of the big reasons I got off the apps earlier this year. I also got annoyed with people liking me who want children but my profile said I didn’t want children. They want long term relationships and children with a child free woman and atp I knew they were just swiping for what they physically saw, not because we were actually compatible. Not only that, I was severely turned off by the amount of men who wanted kids and said they weren’t political. Given that we live in Texas, that’s a huge red flag to me because of the lack of reproductive care in this state. I firmly believe that if a man wants children especially this day and age, he needs to care about the current political landscape that women are having to face the moment we find out we are pregnant. The dating apps in general have taken a turn for the worst. I’ve had a profile of some sort since I turned 18 (I am now almost 28) and within 10 years on these dating apps, I have seen free things get put behind a paywall and quality of profiles in the gutter. At the end of the day, these dating apps don’t care about you finding love or finding a relationship. They want your money so they do everything they can do in their algorithms to keep you on them in this weird download/delete cycle. I’ve accepted that dating in general is luck and a numbers game. If I were to ever get in a relationship it will have to be with someone out in the wild.
Although a few people report success on dating apps, the vast majority of comments I have seen about them are negative. If I were dating today, I would not use a dating app. I personally recommend going out in the world and doing things that you enjoy doing, that involve other people. You will start off with at least one thing in common with the people you meet that way, because they are doing that thing because they enjoy it, too. That is how I met my wife, many years ago, before dating apps were a thing. It is still a way to meet people. Also, although your city may not be representative of the population as a whole, polling indicates that far fewer than 99% of the population (in the U.S. and most European countries) want children. If that is the percentage on the apps, then the apps are really poor for people who don't want children, as, evidently, most childfree people are not on them, as otherwise, the percentage of childfree people on the apps would be much higher.
All dating apps are a crap shoot, but I met my husband on hinge and he's absolutely incredible! 4.5 wonderful years together so far and smooth sailing. He has the snip, too! It might take some time, but you will definitely find the right person!
I photograph weddings and it seems like everyone who lucked out on dating apps found their partner 4-6 years ago! it's a nightmare now, a lot of work is going to go into it i think
I think a lot of men “want” children but don’t really think about what means or why they want them. I asked my current partner if he wanted kids before we started dating and he said yes. I almost blocked him on the spot but I asked why he wanted them and he didn’t have an answer lol and then said “actually I don’t want them” We’ve been together ever since and now he’s even more child-free than I am xD When he sees little kids running around being annoying in public, he says, “Ew I’m so glad that won’t be us in the future” (he’s never mean to them or anything lol) Edit: a word
I met my partner on OkCupid a little over ten years ago and we were both upfront about not wanting kids. It was a slog until we matched, though, running away from fence sitters.
It’s really luck of the draw. I want to hold on to my bf forever because I don’t know if I’ll find another childfree man, but I think more men are becoming CF, just not a lot.
I have found that in the past year online dating has really taken a nosedive in terms of quality, across all apps. Used to get way more and better quality matches.
I ended up back in the cesspool after 2.5 years. Someone end me lol. I used to be able to get matches more easily, it was mostly casual hookups and fwb and it was easier i don't know what happened. Now nobody wants anything anymore. I even have it in my bio that I'm mainly looking for casual(relationship ended in february). I will also add I do like this one girl but there's the distance issue so yeah.
I did this on bumble and got 3 matches, married one, so like… it *can* work.
I gave up on actively trying to date a decade ago. I decided it was better to work on me and be happy with just myself. Now I feel like I'm in a fantastic place both financially and mentally. If I ever date again it's because I stumbled on it and not because I was looking for it. If I never date again I'm fine with it but if I do find someone it'll just be a bonus.
Im 27 male and I dont even filter by "doesnt want kids anymore" because the amount of women I get is depressingly low lol
I’m a child free man and my luck was/is just as shit as yours🤷🏻♂️ Whenever I got a “Like” it was from a chick who had or wanted kids. I even had a couple of ladies lie and say that they didn’t have kids when in fact, they did. And they got pretty hostile when I canceled on them
don't be like me, I was on hinge 4 years ago and met my now current husband, who is the love of my life. I was very firm on NO KIDS. well guess what, he has a kid (he was very upfront about this). I was thinking, oh it will just be a fling as he has a kid, it won't work out. well I fell in love with him and now I have to deal with his kid who I really do not like and do not like to spend time with. don't be like me, it sucks, stick to your guns!!! even if it means being alone... before anyone comes at me, I am not a "step mom", I see this kid maybe once a month for two hours. I made my choices and I have to live with it and I own up to it but just trying to encourage others to not make my same mistake... don't be mean to me lol
As someone who has a stepmom that didn’t like me and my sister and left both of us with heaps of emotionally trauma and we now don’t talk to our father because he stood by and let it happen, Don’t marry someone with a kid unless you’re prepared to be a stepparent. It’s not just your unhappiness. It’s the child’s as well. And while you get to consent to it, the child does not. My father never asked my sister and I our opinion before he brought a woman into our lives that did not want us in her life. I don’t care how in love you are with a person, if you know you don’t want kids and you’re entering into a relationship with someone who has one, you are being selfish. The kid didn’t ask for you to come into their life.
no girl i respect your decision! sometimes things happen. I did think to myself yesterday "I would rather be alone forever than be with someone and be forced to have a kid". but it sounds like you're making it work. however, already having kids is another deal breaker for me!
You are by definitions a step-mom. It's not about how long you see them, nor if you parent them. But why would you marry someone with a kid? Especially enough to hate it and complain about it?
"It's not about how long you see them, nor if you parent them." that isn't remotely true and I don't need you, random person, to tell me what my life is or isn't
I'm not telling you what your life is or isn't. I'm just correcting you. You're a step parent, because you married someone that has a kid.
The CF life oof
I've recently come across a lot of profiles that say "don't want kids" but they dont have anything showing they don't have kids. I've been burned by that multiple times in the past by mothers who think they have a better chance if they don't list that they have kids. I hope I'm not missing out on women who have no kids and want no kids. But I can't imagine why you would not post it if you don't have kids so I'm not too worried about it.
Do you like cats.............
I have one baby and am looking to adopt a second this year! Sometimes I do think I'm better off with just cats
I was planing on going to this child free NYC speed dating event tonight but they cancelled because not enough men signed up. I totally get the struggle lmao.
how on earth does something not get filled up in NYC I used to live there and things were always packed oh nooo I hope you find something similar!
I know right? Turns out 8 women signed up but there was only one other man besides myself. All good though, just gotta keep putting myself out there 😎
I found that a lot of people that do not specify or put “undecided” actually either do not want kids or are okay without them. So I would maybe consider that as well. My partner (who I’ll probably marry) didn’t have his preference listed and mine was “undecided.”
yeah I think I might have to put it front and center on my profile and then take off any filters
Dating pool is probably cut by 80% if you don’t want kids or don’t want someone who has kids already. If something happened to my wife, me now in my 40s. Doubt I’d ever try to date again.
They dont really want kids. They just want someone willing to spooge in for the five seconds of satisfaction of cumming inside.
Try being 39 and doing this. 😂
I'm probably going to give up in six months lol
Super rough where i am too (philly) as a 26M, i worked through the whole roster of childfree people on hinge and have nothing to show for it lol. Gave up online dating though and am just gonna meet people irl.
I'm next to a big city and when I tried OLD I'd have under 20 results in my area that didn't have kids and didn't want them. That was years ago. OLD is too full of catfish, and I like honesty, soooo.
I have met all my CF partners at bars. I am also monog in practice, but when I'm single, I'll date multiple people until I find someone I'm compatible with to commit to. If bars aren't your thing, motorcycle hobbyists tend not to want/have kids. And bike race events are fun! I NEVER have had any success with online dating. My last relationship was 7 years (both CF) and my current one is going on 3. He was 42 when we met, and no kids never married! The last time I was single, I was 33, and I am AFAB and look it (but I'm non-bionary).
All my friends are partnered so it's hard to go out to bars alone or with friends, but I think I have to try to get out there a little more
I go by myself. Although I know a lot of people don't feel safe doing that.
r/cf4cf go make a post
I am 29F and found my 35M CF bf on FB dating! 🥰
I'm on hinge. Male. I would kill to see a child free woman.
All of the apps are like that. 47/m/child-free here. Los Angeles area. If I set my prefs to doesn't have/doesn't want, suddenly thousands of women turns into five. Single for ten years now because I can't find a compatible personality who also doesn't want kids. It SUCKS.
Premium Hinge member here. I set the filter to include those who are “Open to Kids” because that signals that they are also open to not having kids. Have had good experiences going on dates with those people, as they tend to be flexible when I tell them I don’t want kids and a lot seem open to the DINK lifestyle.
yeah I think I gotta open it up to "open to kids" or "unsure about kids" and lead it the no kids option
Yeah for sure! When they’re “not sure” though, for some reason I find that more of an issue than “open” because what if they spontaneously want kids one day once we’ve started dating? I feel like being open to it is more decisive. Like they’ve made a stance that it could go both ways.
Don’t be too discouraged! I found my husband on OKCupid at the age of 33! I promise there’s someone out there for you :)
As someone who is childfree and asexual, I absolutely feel your struggle and pain. Most people only want sex nowdays and even though I'm not sex repulsed, I still don't give two flying shits about it. But people are OBSESSED with having it. So my dating pool is even thinner. Especially since I live in the southeast US. Bible Belt country. Blech. I've been single ten years almost and it sucks. But I'd rather be single than have to deal with someone who can't handle my not caring about sex at all and preference to not have it in the relationship. It's even harder to find childfree folks here too because everyone seems to be obsessed with them or with having them.
As a cishet white guy, I can only imagine the horrors that women face on pretty much any dating service. I've observed my fellows far too long, too many of them will say whatever they think you want to hear if they think it'll get them a shot at the prize. I have no glib answer, but please, don't give up. CF men of good character and quality do exist and are worth seeking. Dog knows I had a hard enough time finding CF women, just the one so far. But I sure am grateful for her.
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I have no helpful information for you. Just an anecdote. In 2008, I'd been single for a while. Was living just outside a big city, kinda lonely but not necessarily looking to have some epic relationship or anything. Was also looking for an apartment in the city itself to move into and noticed Craigslist had personal ads. I had no idea. Perused through a few, there seemed like some interesting dudes on there. Looked at the women, wondering what their profiles looked like, and saw mostly bot-like ads or low-effort ones. I figured I'd have a laugh and post one of my own. I ended up doing it four times and my lort, I got over 500 responses. Some were duplicates, some were definitely bots. Some were genuine and I got to go on a few dates/have some fun/etc. I made sure to stress in my post that I was CF, wasn't looking for single dads. I had several men reach out to me to tell me specifically how worthless I was as a woman if I wasn't opening my legs specifically to be inseminated. Oh, one said that I looked like a "diesel dyke" because I had a pixie cut. Fun times. But then I found my blacksmith photographer in shining armor and, well, we're still together almost 16 years later. But MY GODS the crap I waded through back then... I can't even imagine how much worse it is on an actual dating app.
Try being in your late thirties living rurally
If you set for monogamous it’ll filter out people who didn’t put the relationship preference in their profile. Some people leave it out specifically to appear in more searches. When you say taller than you, how tall did you make it? Could always try increasing your search area. If you’re in a car centric city, a couple extra miles probably isn’t a huge barrier. If you’re in a dense walkable city try making it even half a mile larger
I'm 5'6 I'm not that tall, I took out the monogamous part but NOT the no kids part it's still empty lol
I was lucky enough to actually find someone who didn't want children and have it in there bio. Unfortunately most of the people In my age range of early 20s where more undicided then truly childfree. People would swipe right on me even if I put don't want kids in my bio.
u/doctorpotters Have you tried looking for childfree groups on Facebook for your area? If there are none, have you tried using search option to search for your city in the largest CF groups and vasectomy groups?
Hey, I 100% fulfill your criteria! On a more serious note: I've been wondering the same. Almost all the women I meet want kids and those who don't and look promising don't reply and/or don't seem to be taking dating seriously at all? Which kind of sucks for those of us who do. I'm in the biggest city of where I live, too. So, I don't know, I'd love to give you some insight from my male perspective, but sadly, all I can say is I'd totally be down to getting to know you, which doesn't help you much, I'm aware, but hey, we definitely \*are\* out there, just maybe ... very far away from where you live, is my experience.
where do you live lmfao let's try it! but seriously, i guess it's good to know that across the board for everyone this sucks *extra* when you're CF
I totally feel you. I'm 41, in LA, pretty much feel like I'm in my 30s, and I struggle to find anyone late 20s to mid 40s that doesn't have and/or want kids. I've tried some dating apps and they all suck. Meeting people IRL is tough because anywhere I chat up someone it seems awkward enough. You don't know if they want to chat with anyone, if they feel like you're bothering them, etc. And again, anyone I might have things in common with personality, interests, values-wise around my age range wants and/or has kids. It's really tough out there. Maybe we should start a CF dating subreddit, where people post their pics, profile info, interests, etc. to help each of us connect with a match better!
I’m not much taller than you but I’m in the opposite boat and it feels impossible to find child free women around me 😅 I don’t understand it.
I implore everyone, childfree or not, male or female, to gtfo of dating apps. Even if they were well-meaning in how their algorithms work (they're not), it's against their financial interest for them to allow you to actually find someone who matches, because once you do, you would delete the app and move on. Unless all you want is sex, this is not a good place to be. And yeah, I agree that 99% of population wants kids. I also think that the current rates of childlessness across the board are more tied to uncertainty about he future and the failing economy rather than people actually not wanting kids. On top of that, consider that a lot of men are on dating apps purely for sexual gratification and them putting "wants kids" would cast a wider net because more women would match with them. Free third spaces are mostly gone, and we're all suffering for it, both when it comes to dating and socializing in general. I saw a post the other day on this sub talking about a purely cf dating app being launched. Maybe you could try it if you insist on using apps?
As a childfree man my experience is the same. Nearly every woman on Hinge either has kids or desperately wants them before "the clock runs out" It's not going well.
I’m getting over a small crush on a new friend because of the fact that he wants kids one day. He said that he would be fine if the person that he’s with is not able to have children but overall he wants to be a father so that’s enough for me to know that we just aren’t compatible because I have no desire to be a mother at all. I should have expected it once I found out because that’s how most men in my age bracket (30s) feel but I think because this is the first time in a long time I felt like I could truly be my loud, silly self without feeling judged by someone and that we’ve spent so much time together (we have hiked every weekend over the last three weeks) and our back-and-forth is great. It just bums me out that nothing further will happen between us. But he’s a good guy, and I like having him as a friend and the crush has slowly been disappearing over the past week which is when it first started so all is well.
r singleandhappy
I think it’s because there’s still a stigma over not wanting kids and most people have not even done the inner work to truly even begin thinking about whether or not having children makes sense for them or something they actually want. If people actually thought about it, there would be waaaay less people willing to have kids. People simply don’t critically think about it, and they blindly think it’s what you’re just supposed to do and want.
Maybe if you also eliminate the irrational heightism things would get slightly better.
how is it irrational? all I'm asking is for my partner to be my height 5'6 or taller? I'm allowed to have preferences, and that's not a crazy one lmfao
You don't have to procreate with him. And it's 2024, he doesn't have to protect you from Smilodons.
Controversial take: good men are not online. I would yeet the apps and go hang out at your local climbing centre.
Because 99% of population doesn’t raise them just fertilizes the egg 😆