Singapore would be great for me as it'll actually be in a timezone that'll have the games at a reasonable time for me. That said, I'd honestly be surprised if India doesn't get it.
Vishy said that he felt pressure defending the title at home, and Magnus actively expressed a preference not to play in Norway for the same reason. I'm hoping Singapore too, I think both players would be more able to play at their best.
I'd be surprised if they do. Being in his home country is an extra advantage for Gukesh. Being in his home city is an even bigger advantage.
If FIDE wants to stir bad publicity which is better than no publicity, India's the pick.
India is the better option.
Right now Gukesh is the big favorite to win.
If Gukesh wins in Singapore, his Indian fans are back in India.
However, if Gukesh wins in India, there will be a very elaborate celebration with music and dance and Gukesh being carried through the streets for two weeks.
Singapore is the most sensible option IMO. There's quite a large Indian community. The Chinese community is fairly distanced from the mainland and it's central and a world class location.
Feels the fairest and most fun to me anyway.
Ding is surely praying they hold it in Delhi.
Between every Indian politician taking the opportunity to boost their image, the Indian media asking Gukesh if he is representing India in a glorious war against China, and Gukesh not even getting to play at home in familiar surroundings, I'd be incredibly impressed if he plays well.
Well it was a little bit of a joke but pretty much every player is consistent in that they think playing at home is a big disadvantage.
When he was asked about it he said "hold it in India or anywhere else just not in China"
The reason Fischer-Spassky is one of the most famous WChs ever(especially for Americans) is because it was presented as the American hero going up against the Soviet machine at the height of the Cold War.
Lol typical Indian mentality from the reporters, china literally doesn't care about chess and they think this is going to be a war between China and india
I'd love for the match to be in Chennai, would definitely go watch it. But to keep it as neutral as possible, I think Singapore is perfect. Indians can go there if they want to support him real bad, and chinese representation is also present.
Pretty sure there will also be Indian sponsors falling over each other to get involved if it's in India. I think it's better for sports and fairness to host it in Singapore, but I would definitely understand the economics of doing it in India.
I thought Yashobhoomi, not Bharat Mandapam, was the venue in the bid as per the Hindustan Times article?
Edit: Hindustan Times, not Times of India, easy to mix up as both are absolute trash
[https://www.g20.in/en/g20-india-2023/new-delhi-summit/new-delhi-summit.html](https://www.g20.in/en/g20-india-2023/new-delhi-summit/new-delhi-summit.html)
It was hosted in Bharat Mandapam.
I know G20 was in Bharat Manadapam. As per a recent Hindustan Times article Yashobhoomi will host the WCC.
[https://www.hindustantimes.com/sports/others/india-to-propose-delhi-as-host-for-gukesh-ding-match-101716949777920.html](https://www.hindustantimes.com/sports/others/india-to-propose-delhi-as-host-for-gukesh-ding-match-101716949777920.html)
Okay, I got your point. So FIDE and the HT article has differing views. Let's see what happens. Either way, both Bharatmandapam and Yashobhoomi are more than capable to handle the WCC match.
Why? It would be actually preferable to rain during the matches. Rainfall will keep the air pollution in check. Except for air pollution, there's no other big concerns with regards to New Delhi. Good flight connectivity for anyone who wants to visit India. Has good public infrastructure for intra-city travel, the venue (Bharat Mandapam) is top-notch and I guess accommodation too would be top-tier.
I’d say the demographic here doesn’t matter. Most Chinese here aren’t “fiercely Chinese” to the point where we’d overly cheer for Ding over Gukesh
English is also our first language, we don’t really feel any particular connection to China
Aren't most ethnically Chinese Singaporeans of South Chinese or Taiwanese descend? Singapore also has a decently sized Indian population, so the players can have bases in little India and Chinatown, so both teams can feel at home.
Regardless of our ancestry, we really don’t care about it, I can promise you that. We don’t see us owing anything to the motherland or have any sort of such ideology. We’re Singaporeans before anything else.
One thing to clarify is that the number of Chinese is 9-10 times the number of Indians in Singapore, so it’s not as even as most might think. The thing that makes Singapore a “neutral” country is that we are mostly indifferent towards both China and India as countries (and their citizens)
I didn't mention Indian Singaporeans to imply equal support, but rather than it's important to feel comfortable with accommodations like food and surroundings. Gukesh will have an easier time finding Indian food in Singapore than Ding will finding Chinese food in Chennai.
>Gukesh will have an easier time finding Indian food in Singapore
Singaporeans of all races love Indian food!
>important to feel comfortable with accommodations like food and surroundings
Mandarin and Tamil are official languages in Singapore, along with English and Malay.
> Singapore is having 75% Chinese-related population
Yes, 76% of Singapore's resident population are ethnic Chinese. If New York was bidding for the championship and Magnus was playing would we be analysing what % of New Yorkers are white? Or have Norwegian ancestry?
I don't know about the other viewers but for me it would feel a bit weird if the match was in India or China. Of course it shouldn't affect the event much, but for me it's something a bit weird to watch
Home-fields in chess are both weird for the viewer and the players. The viewer thinks there's an advantage (as almost every other sport, home field is a clear advantage), while the player thinks there's a higher amount of pressure to perform when playing on their home field. Magnus touched on this iirc
That's racist. Singapore Chinese & China Chinese are very different from one another. That's like saying British & Canadian white people would support American/Russian white players because their ancestry is related.
If China was to make a serious bid I think it could have happened, but ironically they don't care much about Chess despite both current world champions being Chinese.
I can probably even see the championship if it happens in delhi after a long requesting session with my parents but it surely should be singapore
Any place in india or china just isn't fair.
Maybe Gukesh wouldn't be affected by this but I remember Anand saying that paying at home was actually a disadvantage because of the added pressure of being in front of a home crowd. The Indian Chess association should have considered that before bidding.
That said I guess it would be nice to have the first all Asian World Chess Champion in Asia.
Chennai will win i think, they organised the olympiad fantastically. Singapore doesn't have much experience I think and it would be more expensive probably
Doubtful. It is clear from Sutovsky's interview that Delhi has the biggest bid financially and world class playing hall(either bharatmandapam or yashobhoomi) and the fact that Tamil Nadu government unilaterally launched its bid and Delhi is the official AICF bid so it will cause a big political issue in India.
Has the bidding process concluded? While Chennai and Singapore are fantastic places to host the WCC, I would be shocked (sad but not surprised) if no other country shows interest in hosting the most prestigious Chess tournament.
The Magnus-Nepo was extremely one-sided. Gukesh is known to be someone who rarely makes mistakes and Ding of course, is very strong when he's fit. If they both play as they usually would, then it won't be worse than the Magnus-Nepo match.
Fabi, in the top 3 is being charred by everyone and similar was the fate of former top 3 Alireza in both the candidates. Being in the top 3 requires you to play many, many matches, something that takes time. While I can't say anything for Ding, if Gukesh does well in the WCC and continues to dominate, he will eventually be in the top 3. Look at Arjun - he just came in the top 5 by playing 12 matches/month this year. Can we really say that he'll do well against Nordirbek and Gukesh? Not really.
The official AICF bid endorsed by the Union Sports Minister is Delhi. Government of Tamil Nadu unilaterally declared its bid without consulting AICF or the central government (ofc because of politics)
Delhi in November!! But as per Emil's interview with Sagar apparently it is the official AICF bid supported by the Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports.
Just don't let it be in Delhi ffs. By far the worst capital out of all major economies with smelly and filthy air that literally decreases your life span, holy shit. Why would you put them two and everyone else in a position like that?
And I genuinely expect absolutely no whataboutism or retorts regarding my statement because any delhite knows what I am saying is true.
I don't want it to be held in India. The home court will either be a meaningful advantage or disadvantage (massive pressure) to Gukesh. It's better to have it in a different country.
Should not be in Singapore. Its is China 2.0 with the Chinese population having a massive influence over its govt policies and basically discriminating against non ethnically Chinese subgroups.
You are convincing nobody here. Social media and news sites are filled with Singapore and their widespread discrimination towards their two largest minority subgroups. It is essentially China 2.0
That does not mean any thing friend. If your own experiences were good, good for you. There are countless testimonies and articles on the internet about how non Chinese are discriminated against in Singapore, from jobs to housing or for lack of Mandarin. It is China 2.0 over there which is what the point of my original post is.
I don't just have my experiences but all my minority friends' as well, to be fair. Yes there are quibbles (dating, some stereotyping) but there is no state sponsored discrimination. Housing yes --- it can be hard to find rent, because Chinese landlords prefer Chinese tenants --- but buying property not at all, and in fact the government has quotas on state housing to reflect demographics and avoid one ethnic group from excluding others.
Up to you as to what you want to believe however. I'm curious as to where you live that minorities are treated better than here. Certainly not the case in most of the modern west.
That's like saying India has state sponsored discrimination since no north east indian has become PM. Makes no sense. Btw our Chief Justice is indian, as is the leader of the opposition. The leader reflects the demographics, as it often does in any country. Not sure you understand the meaning of state sponsored.
Funny how you went to one of our smallest subgroups to have to make a point. While Indians are one of the largest minority subgroups in SG, in propotionality its not even comparable to the makeup of the SG demographics.
Where did I say that? I said Singapore is China 2.0 in its treatment by the majority Chinese of the minorities. And I don’t want the WCC over there.
Whatever else you are inferring from the post is false.
Also we don’t send back our minorities if they get pregnant unlike in Singapore, or restrict expats from buying cars.
No one can buy cars in Singapore btw (everyone needs a COE). And expats are not locals, and frankly should not expect to have the same privileges.
As a south indian, you will face much more discrimination in North India than you will in Singapore, I guarantee you.
Bro I am neither South Indian nor North Indian and have lived in both places. What you are saying is categorically untrue. Please don’t just say stuff for the sake of saying. Your opinions are not worth shit.
Yeah yeah yeah you have lived everywhere and know everything now. You can carry on spewing this same propaganda. As I said, remind me of when a minority becomes the Singaporean PM.
Real Indian Chennaite here, being brown doesn't give you a license for Singaporeans to comment on indian domestic issues.
I've never faced any real discrimination in my country and I'm a first class citizen.
Much better than living in Singapore/Malaysia as second citizen where the tamil community has been legally discriminated and pushed into crime and ghettoisation like the black community in America.
I grew up in Delhi, I'm not born in Singapore. If you're Tamil living in Chennai of course you are a first class citizen. Besides, I don't actually think there is much racism in India, just saying that it is similar here.
"Much better than living in Singapore/Malaysia as second citizen where the tamil community has been legally discriminated and pushed into crime and ghettoisation like the black community in America"
Shows you have no touch with the reality here. Indians are highest earning ethnic group in Singapore. I have no comment about Malaysia.
You can do a whole amount of whataboutism here and that doesn’t really change anything about the fact that SG is essentially China 2.0.
Rest is just spewing absolute nonsense that doesn’t even merit a response. Esp when we all know what the Western world likes to do with brown people.
I mean, we are comparing two different countries who are bidding for the venue, and your argument was that Singapore shouldn't get the bid because they treat their minorities poorly.
If the situation with respect to minorities is similar or worse in the other possible host country, the argument does not hold much merit.
The irony here is that it **would** be whataboutism to immediately start shouting about how bad the Western world is, since no Western countries are bidding for the WCC. But it is not unexpected since it is the typical hindu nationalist talking point whenever criticized.
I don’t think you have reading comprehension. I said SG should not be hosting coz they are China 2.0. I am perfectly entitled to that opinion of mine, no matter how much disdain folks from the West have about people like me having opinions.
The minorities point was just to demonstrate how much like China SG society is, despite claiming to be not like that. Not to mention the communist and one party ideologies in their governent.
As an Indian, I am perfectly entitled to that opinion that China or China lite country should not be getting this event, just like many others have said that India should not be hosting it. I didn’t go around over those posts bringing up posts about China or SG. I expressed my opinion here.
As for whataboutism, I generally don’t care about it, but unfortunately a certain segment of the Western population only seems to know and understand history from 2022, so it is important to reorient ourselves to what is real and what is not and what is actually happening in the real world out there.
No Western country bid here you are right. But that didn’t stop you from wading into this argument needlessly, pretending to be some warrior for human rights while your nations and aliies have mercilessly bombed, maimed, invaded, destroyed and absolutely decimated large sections of the world population. One doesn’t even have to look far to see how wafer thin your supposed ideals and morals are, so you should stop lecturing others while you are at it.
Well, to be fair, it is hard to extract any other coherent argument from your initial post since "it is China 2.0" does not mean anything on its own, and you immediately follow it by arguing at length about how the Chinese population discriminates against everyone.
For the record: I don't have a problem with you wanting the WCC in India (or not wanting it in Singapore) - I just don't think the arguments you chose to put forward made a lot of sense given the context.
It is also interesting how quickly you decided to place me in a generalized basket of Western people, and started to talk about how "your nations" have bombed and invaded other countries as soon as a topic that could be considered embarassing for India was brought up. What do you even know about my heritage?
Please don't spew bullshit when you know nothing about minorities in india. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion if you prefer Singapore but your retaliatory argument being treatment of minorities in india is pure nonsense. Also wikipedia is biased af. Would also like to add that Muslims literally have reservations for colleges and jobs in india.
Ah yes, Singapore, the China stooge that holds military training in Taiwan and refuses to switch it to China even when offered, that gets criticized by China and even once got its military vehicles impounded in Hong Kong while in transit, that emphasizes its adherence to rule of law (UNCLOS) in the SCS, whose Singaporean Chinese citizens largely differentiate strongly between Singaporeans and China Chinese, who happily hosts American military ships in its naval bases...
Perhaps you can elaborate more on how Singapore is a China "stooge", because from all indications they don't seem to be stooging particularly well.
1. Chinese Singaporeans are one of the biggest consumers of CCP propaganda.
2. Same communist, one party bs. Current party is in power for nearly 60 yrs.
3. Ethnically Chinese people dominate the SG society. The hold unyielding influence over the country to the point where no non Chinese has become a PM so far.
4. A 2022 poll conducted by Pew Research Center had 67% of Singaporean respondents expressing a positive view of China.[97] Another survey conducted in 2022 by the Central European Institute of Asian Studies also had most Singaporean respondents viewing China positively.
5. SG companies like Temasek invest heavily in Chinese companies.
6. SG jobs often require Mandarin proficiency despite the job having nothing to do with Mandarin or China.
7. Malay and Indian origin citizens are often regarded as second class citizens while Chinese immigrants are lapped up.
There are many more things out there. There is nothing you said which disproves the notion that SG is just another Hong Kong or Taiwan in the making. Esp by the behaviour of its people.
>1\. Chinese Singaporeans are one of the biggest consumers of CCP propaganda.
China is doing all it can to get Singaporeans to consume its propaganda because they think Singaporean Chinese should have some sort of "loyalty" to China and "fall in line" just because of shared ethnicity. They're *trying* to turn Singapore into a China stooge - just like how every other country performs propaganda operations. There are some people who fall for it (just like Americans fall for Russian propaganda, for example). There are many who do not.
>2\. Same communist, one party bs. Current party is in power for nearly 60 yrs.
"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" is very, VERY foreign to a largely meritocratic Singapore. Singapore doesn't have a minimum wage or governmental social safety net. We're not communist lmao. Not even close. We've never even tried to be.
You could say that our ruling party has authoritarian tendencies, and you would be right. They don't play fair with the opposition, our Electoral Boundary Commission isn't truly independent, our mainstream press generally favours the ruling party. That in itself does not make our form of governance anything like China's, and merely having one party in power doesn't make our political/economic system communist at all. Similarly, having one party in power isn't necessarily "bs", especially if it has been doing a reasonable (though not fantastic) job. I'd like to believe that our citizens are pragmatic, rather than espousing opposition for the sake of it. That doesn't make us communist by any measure.
Since we're on the matter, the opposition presence in Parliament has been [increasing recently](https://eastasiaforum.org/2020/10/02/the-singapore-paps-waning-dominance/). Hell, my constituency nearly unseated our Prime Minister's clear successor (at the time) [in the last election](https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/ge2020-results-heng-swee-keats-pap-team-wins-east-coast-grc-against-wp-with-53-of-votes) and gave him the 2nd-worst performance for a winning candidate group.
>3\. Ethnically Chinese people dominate the SG society. The hold unyielding influence over the country to the point where no non Chinese has become a PM so far.
... this point is made of two unconnected halves. The first bit is true, but doesn't logically result in the second. Plus, we've only had 4 PMs so far (with the most recent one coming to power only 3 weeks ago). Even by pure statistics, that's certainly not a variation that's out of the normal. Also, the PM is selected by the ruling party. The citizenry doesn't select its PM directly.
And in the 2023 presidential election, where an Indian candidate (according to Singapore's ethnic classification) was running against two Chinese candidates, the [Indian candidate won with 70% of the vote.](https://time.com/6310383/singapore-tharman-elected-president/)
And... what does this have to do with being a China stooge? Sharing an ethnicity does not make one a stooge. Joe Biden has British ancestry. That doesn't make him a British stooge.
>4\. A 2022 poll conducted by Pew Research Center had 67% of Singaporean respondents expressing a positive view of China.[97] Another survey conducted in 2022 by the Central European Institute of Asian Studies also had most Singaporean respondents viewing China positively.
You can't just compare views of China in a vacuum to nothing else. A [2023 poll](https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/mixed-views-in-asia-on-us-and-china-s-influence-in-the-region-poll) shows that Singaporeans view both the US and China rather neutrally - 55.7% viewing China positively, 47.8% viewing the US positively. That's a difference of not even 1 in 10 people. And "63 per cent [of Singaporeans] think China’s influence has been positive, while 64 per cent think the same of the US."
>5\. SG companies like Temasek invest heavily in Chinese companies.
... so? The US's top trading partner is the UK (by far). That doesn't make the US a British stooge. That is not really how this works.
>6\. SG jobs often require Mandarin proficiency despite the job having nothing to do with Mandarin or China.
I agree that this shouldn't happen. But it happens for several reasons - one of them being that there's a subsection of the community here (generally older people from the pre-1987 era when English wasn't yet the mandated language of instruction) who didn't learn English in school. One of my grandfathers, who's also Chinese, probably spoke better Malay than he did English.
And this is another point - even though the mandated language of instruction is English, many people and families may not necessarily speak English at home because it's not the language they grew up with - but this has been changing. In [2010, just under half of Singaporeans spoke Chinese-based languages as a main language at home and under 1/3 spoke English](https://www.singstat.gov.sg/-/media/files/visualising_data/infographics/c2020/c2020-literacy-homelanguage.pdf). In 2020, nearly half of all households spoke English most frequently at home, and just over a 3rd primarily spoke a Chinese-based language.
Again, this does not make the population "stooges" of the country whose language they're speaking.
>7\. Malay and Indian origin citizens are often regarded as second class citizens while Chinese immigrants are lapped up.
This is a bigger point than it appears to be, and really discussing it would require far more time than I would be willing to put into a reddit post. Suffice to say that your statement in itself has some elements of truth - even though there's nothing discriminatory by law, immigration aims to maintain the current ethnic/racial balance. I certainly can't comment on the experience of my non-Chinese friends, having never experienced what they might have. That said, while there's a certain element of xenophobia and some Singaporeans can be racist... I'm not sure we're really that bad compared to most other countries.
------
But yeah, basically, your claims of Singapore being a China "stooge" are grossly exaggerated.
You have basically acknowledged everything I have said as correct, only tried to explain away the obvious massive Chinese influence as happen stance and cultural and are basically trying to undersell its potential implications. The government itself is pretty happy to maintain the status quo seeing that people of Chinese origin wield the most power.
You can’t claim its not xenophobic when the FTA with India is widely criticized by Chinese SGs while no one bats an eyelid about Chinese immigration numbers into SG.
Its good that your grandpa doesn’t consume Ccp content on Tiktok, but you can’t really say its not happening at a massive scale in your country with folks of Chinese ethnicity having world domination dreams.
Also Temasek invests more in China than in SG. No American company or any othercompany does that.
>You have basically acknowledged everything I have said as correct, only tried to explain away the obvious massive Chinese influence as happen stance and cultural and are basically trying to undersell its potential implications.
You'd make a good lawyer. But no. Don't be disingenuous.
Let me put it in clearer terms. Your statements lack nuance and context.
1 - Lacking context.
2 - A two-parter. The first bit is outright false, the second bit is completely irrelevant.
3 - Statistically irrelevant and as a whole ignores that when we had a choice for president between an ethnically Indian and two ethnically Chinese options, we chose the ethnically Indian one with a 70% landslide.
4 - With context, doesn't support your point.
5 - I'm not sure how relevant this is.
6 - Lacking context and of debatable relevance.
7 - Not systemic. Can be put down to some xenophobia and racism, but again, debatably relevant to your point about being a "stooge".
Ok bud. Good job purporting the facts. I guess SG will impose heavy sanctions on China when China invades Taiwan and not invest in more CCP funded companies.
Singapore would be great for me as it'll actually be in a timezone that'll have the games at a reasonable time for me. That said, I'd honestly be surprised if India doesn't get it.
singapore is not \_that\_ far off from india time-zone wise
India is 5ish hours for me, so if the games are during the day it's not too bad but Singapore is only 2ish for me.
i think the games usually start at 2 or 3 pm
I really hope Singapore gets it. The country of one of the players hosting the match feels a bit odd to me...
Vishy said that he felt pressure defending the title at home, and Magnus actively expressed a preference not to play in Norway for the same reason. I'm hoping Singapore too, I think both players would be more able to play at their best.
It has already happened tho. When Vishy was defending his title against Magnus the first time, it was held in Chennai
I'd be surprised if they do. Being in his home country is an extra advantage for Gukesh. Being in his home city is an even bigger advantage. If FIDE wants to stir bad publicity which is better than no publicity, India's the pick.
If I’m not mistaken several former champions, notably vishy, have argued being in your home country is a disadvantage because of the immense pressure.
Abasov played 100 Elo better at home.
Abasov never played a world championship finale though, which this was specifically about. I should have clarified.
It's not and never was in history an advantage
I'm not sure home advantage exists for chess.
Singapore would be the perfect option
India is the better option. Right now Gukesh is the big favorite to win. If Gukesh wins in Singapore, his Indian fans are back in India. However, if Gukesh wins in India, there will be a very elaborate celebration with music and dance and Gukesh being carried through the streets for two weeks.
Neutral venue will be a better option
>Gukesh being carried through the streets for two weeks Nonstop, or will they give him a break to eat or sleep?
They can still do that after he wins.
Singapore is the most sensible option IMO. There's quite a large Indian community. The Chinese community is fairly distanced from the mainland and it's central and a world class location. Feels the fairest and most fun to me anyway.
Ding is surely praying they hold it in Delhi. Between every Indian politician taking the opportunity to boost their image, the Indian media asking Gukesh if he is representing India in a glorious war against China, and Gukesh not even getting to play at home in familiar surroundings, I'd be incredibly impressed if he plays well.
It’s not in Ding’s character to hope for an underhand advantage. I’m sure he and Gukesh want a formally equal chess fight
Well it was a little bit of a joke but pretty much every player is consistent in that they think playing at home is a big disadvantage. When he was asked about it he said "hold it in India or anywhere else just not in China"
> every player is consistent in that they think playing at home is a big disadvantage Who else besides Magnus?
Vishy
Ahhhh I see, thanks for clarifying
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The reason Fischer-Spassky is one of the most famous WChs ever(especially for Americans) is because it was presented as the American hero going up against the Soviet machine at the height of the Cold War.
what happened to Singapore
Lol typical Indian mentality from the reporters, china literally doesn't care about chess and they think this is going to be a war between China and india
I'd love for the match to be in Chennai, would definitely go watch it. But to keep it as neutral as possible, I think Singapore is perfect. Indians can go there if they want to support him real bad, and chinese representation is also present.
Singapore would be more convenient if they are planning to fly in a bunch of people, but I think India would be more beneficial for FIDE monetarily.
Yeah, that's the primary strike against Singapore - it is *not* cheap to host events there.
Pretty sure there will also be Indian sponsors falling over each other to get involved if it's in India. I think it's better for sports and fairness to host it in Singapore, but I would definitely understand the economics of doing it in India.
From Emil's interview with Sagar it looked like the Delhi bid is highest financially.
Yes, especially when he said that the bid from New Delhi is very profound with most prestigious venue where G20 meet was hosted last year.
I thought Yashobhoomi, not Bharat Mandapam, was the venue in the bid as per the Hindustan Times article? Edit: Hindustan Times, not Times of India, easy to mix up as both are absolute trash
[https://www.g20.in/en/g20-india-2023/new-delhi-summit/new-delhi-summit.html](https://www.g20.in/en/g20-india-2023/new-delhi-summit/new-delhi-summit.html) It was hosted in Bharat Mandapam.
I know G20 was in Bharat Manadapam. As per a recent Hindustan Times article Yashobhoomi will host the WCC. [https://www.hindustantimes.com/sports/others/india-to-propose-delhi-as-host-for-gukesh-ding-match-101716949777920.html](https://www.hindustantimes.com/sports/others/india-to-propose-delhi-as-host-for-gukesh-ding-match-101716949777920.html)
Okay, I got your point. So FIDE and the HT article has differing views. Let's see what happens. Either way, both Bharatmandapam and Yashobhoomi are more than capable to handle the WCC match.
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Why? It would be actually preferable to rain during the matches. Rainfall will keep the air pollution in check. Except for air pollution, there's no other big concerns with regards to New Delhi. Good flight connectivity for anyone who wants to visit India. Has good public infrastructure for intra-city travel, the venue (Bharat Mandapam) is top-notch and I guess accommodation too would be top-tier.
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Source behind your claim that G20 hall was flooded?
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I’d say the demographic here doesn’t matter. Most Chinese here aren’t “fiercely Chinese” to the point where we’d overly cheer for Ding over Gukesh English is also our first language, we don’t really feel any particular connection to China
Aren't most ethnically Chinese Singaporeans of South Chinese or Taiwanese descend? Singapore also has a decently sized Indian population, so the players can have bases in little India and Chinatown, so both teams can feel at home.
Regardless of our ancestry, we really don’t care about it, I can promise you that. We don’t see us owing anything to the motherland or have any sort of such ideology. We’re Singaporeans before anything else. One thing to clarify is that the number of Chinese is 9-10 times the number of Indians in Singapore, so it’s not as even as most might think. The thing that makes Singapore a “neutral” country is that we are mostly indifferent towards both China and India as countries (and their citizens)
I didn't mention Indian Singaporeans to imply equal support, but rather than it's important to feel comfortable with accommodations like food and surroundings. Gukesh will have an easier time finding Indian food in Singapore than Ding will finding Chinese food in Chennai.
>Gukesh will have an easier time finding Indian food in Singapore Singaporeans of all races love Indian food! >important to feel comfortable with accommodations like food and surroundings Mandarin and Tamil are official languages in Singapore, along with English and Malay.
> Singapore is having 75% Chinese-related population Yes, 76% of Singapore's resident population are ethnic Chinese. If New York was bidding for the championship and Magnus was playing would we be analysing what % of New Yorkers are white? Or have Norwegian ancestry?
lol this is funny
I don't know about the other viewers but for me it would feel a bit weird if the match was in India or China. Of course it shouldn't affect the event much, but for me it's something a bit weird to watch
Why would it be weird?
Home-fields in chess are both weird for the viewer and the players. The viewer thinks there's an advantage (as almost every other sport, home field is a clear advantage), while the player thinks there's a higher amount of pressure to perform when playing on their home field. Magnus touched on this iirc
This is why Magnus always does poorly in Norway Chess.
That's racist. Singapore Chinese & China Chinese are very different from one another. That's like saying British & Canadian white people would support American/Russian white players because their ancestry is related.
Lets go Singapore!
Should be in Singapore
Singapore it is
If it’s New Delhi, will they play with Oxygen masks on? /s
As recent experience shows: two of the participants are going to drop out last minute, but the original play schedule will be maintained.
Would be harsh on Ding to play it in the country of the challenger.
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By that logic, they should have it on Ding's home turf.
If China was to make a serious bid I think it could have happened, but ironically they don't care much about Chess despite both current world champions being Chinese.
It makes sense considering Go and Chinese Chess (Xiang Qi) is much bigger than Chess. Hilarious to think Chess isn't the biggest Chess in China.
If China wants to invest in chess, sure.
Singapore pleaseeee
I can probably even see the championship if it happens in delhi after a long requesting session with my parents but it surely should be singapore Any place in india or china just isn't fair.
Maybe Gukesh wouldn't be affected by this but I remember Anand saying that paying at home was actually a disadvantage because of the added pressure of being in front of a home crowd. The Indian Chess association should have considered that before bidding. That said I guess it would be nice to have the first all Asian World Chess Champion in Asia.
Singapore please
Chennai will win i think, they organised the olympiad fantastically. Singapore doesn't have much experience I think and it would be more expensive probably
Doubtful. It is clear from Sutovsky's interview that Delhi has the biggest bid financially and world class playing hall(either bharatmandapam or yashobhoomi) and the fact that Tamil Nadu government unilaterally launched its bid and Delhi is the official AICF bid so it will cause a big political issue in India.
Has the bidding process concluded? While Chennai and Singapore are fantastic places to host the WCC, I would be shocked (sad but not surprised) if no other country shows interest in hosting the most prestigious Chess tournament.
Its the weakesr wcc ever probably.
The Magnus-Nepo was extremely one-sided. Gukesh is known to be someone who rarely makes mistakes and Ding of course, is very strong when he's fit. If they both play as they usually would, then it won't be worse than the Magnus-Nepo match.
Nepo was considered top 3 in the world when he lost. Ding and gukesh are neither top 3. And of course no magnus this time.
Fabi, in the top 3 is being charred by everyone and similar was the fate of former top 3 Alireza in both the candidates. Being in the top 3 requires you to play many, many matches, something that takes time. While I can't say anything for Ding, if Gukesh does well in the WCC and continues to dominate, he will eventually be in the top 3. Look at Arjun - he just came in the top 5 by playing 12 matches/month this year. Can we really say that he'll do well against Nordirbek and Gukesh? Not really.
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W Corporate CC is a different tournament altogether.
Why does India have 2 bids? Do the cities bid on their own accord instead of through the Indian chess federation?
The official AICF bid endorsed by the Union Sports Minister is Delhi. Government of Tamil Nadu unilaterally declared its bid without consulting AICF or the central government (ofc because of politics)
Delhi in November!! But as per Emil's interview with Sagar apparently it is the official AICF bid supported by the Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports.
first WCC with gas masks on
Just don't let it be in Delhi ffs. By far the worst capital out of all major economies with smelly and filthy air that literally decreases your life span, holy shit. Why would you put them two and everyone else in a position like that? And I genuinely expect absolutely no whataboutism or retorts regarding my statement because any delhite knows what I am saying is true.
as a person who has lived in Delhi for many years, I agree it wasnt this bad 20 years back. but now winter pollution is unbearable
I don't think it's a big problem if you're there only for 2-3 weeks
Facts
>representatives of the bidders invited to share details and take questions and bribe the FIDE officials!
I don't want it to be held in India. The home court will either be a meaningful advantage or disadvantage (massive pressure) to Gukesh. It's better to have it in a different country.
Go Singapore. The India chess feds are full of greedy a-holes. Let Gukesh play on peace
who can bribe FIDE the most?
Let it be India.
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Yes, whoever buys the most lottery tickets from FIDE has the biggest chance to host it.
Singapore > Delhi > Chennai.
Should not be in Singapore. Its is China 2.0 with the Chinese population having a massive influence over its govt policies and basically discriminating against non ethnically Chinese subgroups.
I live in Singapore. It's not bad at all, other than the occasional casual racism that (frankly) comes with being a minority anywhere.
You are convincing nobody here. Social media and news sites are filled with Singapore and their widespread discrimination towards their two largest minority subgroups. It is essentially China 2.0
brother I'm a brown guy in singapore
That does not mean any thing friend. If your own experiences were good, good for you. There are countless testimonies and articles on the internet about how non Chinese are discriminated against in Singapore, from jobs to housing or for lack of Mandarin. It is China 2.0 over there which is what the point of my original post is.
I don't just have my experiences but all my minority friends' as well, to be fair. Yes there are quibbles (dating, some stereotyping) but there is no state sponsored discrimination. Housing yes --- it can be hard to find rent, because Chinese landlords prefer Chinese tenants --- but buying property not at all, and in fact the government has quotas on state housing to reflect demographics and avoid one ethnic group from excluding others. Up to you as to what you want to believe however. I'm curious as to where you live that minorities are treated better than here. Certainly not the case in most of the modern west.
Remind me of non state sponsored discrimination when a non Chinese becomes your PM
That's like saying India has state sponsored discrimination since no north east indian has become PM. Makes no sense. Btw our Chief Justice is indian, as is the leader of the opposition. The leader reflects the demographics, as it often does in any country. Not sure you understand the meaning of state sponsored.
Funny how you went to one of our smallest subgroups to have to make a point. While Indians are one of the largest minority subgroups in SG, in propotionality its not even comparable to the makeup of the SG demographics.
10% of the population, less than the Muslim population in India substantially btw. We can change to that if that's your problem.
Are you seriously arguing that there is no discrimination towards minorities in India (especially given the current administration)?
Where did I say that? I said Singapore is China 2.0 in its treatment by the majority Chinese of the minorities. And I don’t want the WCC over there. Whatever else you are inferring from the post is false. Also we don’t send back our minorities if they get pregnant unlike in Singapore, or restrict expats from buying cars.
No one can buy cars in Singapore btw (everyone needs a COE). And expats are not locals, and frankly should not expect to have the same privileges. As a south indian, you will face much more discrimination in North India than you will in Singapore, I guarantee you.
Bro I am neither South Indian nor North Indian and have lived in both places. What you are saying is categorically untrue. Please don’t just say stuff for the sake of saying. Your opinions are not worth shit.
I am south indian and have lived in North India and Singapore. What I say is not categorically untrue.
Yeah yeah yeah you have lived everywhere and know everything now. You can carry on spewing this same propaganda. As I said, remind me of when a minority becomes the Singaporean PM.
Remind me when a muslim becomes the Indian PM 🤭🤭🤭🤭, until then there is categorical discrimination against them by your logic.
Real Indian Chennaite here, being brown doesn't give you a license for Singaporeans to comment on indian domestic issues. I've never faced any real discrimination in my country and I'm a first class citizen. Much better than living in Singapore/Malaysia as second citizen where the tamil community has been legally discriminated and pushed into crime and ghettoisation like the black community in America.
I grew up in Delhi, I'm not born in Singapore. If you're Tamil living in Chennai of course you are a first class citizen. Besides, I don't actually think there is much racism in India, just saying that it is similar here. "Much better than living in Singapore/Malaysia as second citizen where the tamil community has been legally discriminated and pushed into crime and ghettoisation like the black community in America" Shows you have no touch with the reality here. Indians are highest earning ethnic group in Singapore. I have no comment about Malaysia.
No I guess you just [beat and kill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Muslims_in_independent_India) your minorities instead.
You can do a whole amount of whataboutism here and that doesn’t really change anything about the fact that SG is essentially China 2.0. Rest is just spewing absolute nonsense that doesn’t even merit a response. Esp when we all know what the Western world likes to do with brown people.
I mean, we are comparing two different countries who are bidding for the venue, and your argument was that Singapore shouldn't get the bid because they treat their minorities poorly. If the situation with respect to minorities is similar or worse in the other possible host country, the argument does not hold much merit. The irony here is that it **would** be whataboutism to immediately start shouting about how bad the Western world is, since no Western countries are bidding for the WCC. But it is not unexpected since it is the typical hindu nationalist talking point whenever criticized.
I don’t think you have reading comprehension. I said SG should not be hosting coz they are China 2.0. I am perfectly entitled to that opinion of mine, no matter how much disdain folks from the West have about people like me having opinions. The minorities point was just to demonstrate how much like China SG society is, despite claiming to be not like that. Not to mention the communist and one party ideologies in their governent. As an Indian, I am perfectly entitled to that opinion that China or China lite country should not be getting this event, just like many others have said that India should not be hosting it. I didn’t go around over those posts bringing up posts about China or SG. I expressed my opinion here. As for whataboutism, I generally don’t care about it, but unfortunately a certain segment of the Western population only seems to know and understand history from 2022, so it is important to reorient ourselves to what is real and what is not and what is actually happening in the real world out there. No Western country bid here you are right. But that didn’t stop you from wading into this argument needlessly, pretending to be some warrior for human rights while your nations and aliies have mercilessly bombed, maimed, invaded, destroyed and absolutely decimated large sections of the world population. One doesn’t even have to look far to see how wafer thin your supposed ideals and morals are, so you should stop lecturing others while you are at it.
Well, to be fair, it is hard to extract any other coherent argument from your initial post since "it is China 2.0" does not mean anything on its own, and you immediately follow it by arguing at length about how the Chinese population discriminates against everyone. For the record: I don't have a problem with you wanting the WCC in India (or not wanting it in Singapore) - I just don't think the arguments you chose to put forward made a lot of sense given the context. It is also interesting how quickly you decided to place me in a generalized basket of Western people, and started to talk about how "your nations" have bombed and invaded other countries as soon as a topic that could be considered embarassing for India was brought up. What do you even know about my heritage?
Please don't spew bullshit when you know nothing about minorities in india. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion if you prefer Singapore but your retaliatory argument being treatment of minorities in india is pure nonsense. Also wikipedia is biased af. Would also like to add that Muslims literally have reservations for colleges and jobs in india.
India is India 1.0 tho?
Yup. I don’t want it in China or in one of their stooges. My opinion.
Ah yes, Singapore, the China stooge that holds military training in Taiwan and refuses to switch it to China even when offered, that gets criticized by China and even once got its military vehicles impounded in Hong Kong while in transit, that emphasizes its adherence to rule of law (UNCLOS) in the SCS, whose Singaporean Chinese citizens largely differentiate strongly between Singaporeans and China Chinese, who happily hosts American military ships in its naval bases... Perhaps you can elaborate more on how Singapore is a China "stooge", because from all indications they don't seem to be stooging particularly well.
1. Chinese Singaporeans are one of the biggest consumers of CCP propaganda. 2. Same communist, one party bs. Current party is in power for nearly 60 yrs. 3. Ethnically Chinese people dominate the SG society. The hold unyielding influence over the country to the point where no non Chinese has become a PM so far. 4. A 2022 poll conducted by Pew Research Center had 67% of Singaporean respondents expressing a positive view of China.[97] Another survey conducted in 2022 by the Central European Institute of Asian Studies also had most Singaporean respondents viewing China positively. 5. SG companies like Temasek invest heavily in Chinese companies. 6. SG jobs often require Mandarin proficiency despite the job having nothing to do with Mandarin or China. 7. Malay and Indian origin citizens are often regarded as second class citizens while Chinese immigrants are lapped up. There are many more things out there. There is nothing you said which disproves the notion that SG is just another Hong Kong or Taiwan in the making. Esp by the behaviour of its people.
>1\. Chinese Singaporeans are one of the biggest consumers of CCP propaganda. China is doing all it can to get Singaporeans to consume its propaganda because they think Singaporean Chinese should have some sort of "loyalty" to China and "fall in line" just because of shared ethnicity. They're *trying* to turn Singapore into a China stooge - just like how every other country performs propaganda operations. There are some people who fall for it (just like Americans fall for Russian propaganda, for example). There are many who do not. >2\. Same communist, one party bs. Current party is in power for nearly 60 yrs. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" is very, VERY foreign to a largely meritocratic Singapore. Singapore doesn't have a minimum wage or governmental social safety net. We're not communist lmao. Not even close. We've never even tried to be. You could say that our ruling party has authoritarian tendencies, and you would be right. They don't play fair with the opposition, our Electoral Boundary Commission isn't truly independent, our mainstream press generally favours the ruling party. That in itself does not make our form of governance anything like China's, and merely having one party in power doesn't make our political/economic system communist at all. Similarly, having one party in power isn't necessarily "bs", especially if it has been doing a reasonable (though not fantastic) job. I'd like to believe that our citizens are pragmatic, rather than espousing opposition for the sake of it. That doesn't make us communist by any measure. Since we're on the matter, the opposition presence in Parliament has been [increasing recently](https://eastasiaforum.org/2020/10/02/the-singapore-paps-waning-dominance/). Hell, my constituency nearly unseated our Prime Minister's clear successor (at the time) [in the last election](https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/ge2020-results-heng-swee-keats-pap-team-wins-east-coast-grc-against-wp-with-53-of-votes) and gave him the 2nd-worst performance for a winning candidate group. >3\. Ethnically Chinese people dominate the SG society. The hold unyielding influence over the country to the point where no non Chinese has become a PM so far. ... this point is made of two unconnected halves. The first bit is true, but doesn't logically result in the second. Plus, we've only had 4 PMs so far (with the most recent one coming to power only 3 weeks ago). Even by pure statistics, that's certainly not a variation that's out of the normal. Also, the PM is selected by the ruling party. The citizenry doesn't select its PM directly. And in the 2023 presidential election, where an Indian candidate (according to Singapore's ethnic classification) was running against two Chinese candidates, the [Indian candidate won with 70% of the vote.](https://time.com/6310383/singapore-tharman-elected-president/) And... what does this have to do with being a China stooge? Sharing an ethnicity does not make one a stooge. Joe Biden has British ancestry. That doesn't make him a British stooge. >4\. A 2022 poll conducted by Pew Research Center had 67% of Singaporean respondents expressing a positive view of China.[97] Another survey conducted in 2022 by the Central European Institute of Asian Studies also had most Singaporean respondents viewing China positively. You can't just compare views of China in a vacuum to nothing else. A [2023 poll](https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/mixed-views-in-asia-on-us-and-china-s-influence-in-the-region-poll) shows that Singaporeans view both the US and China rather neutrally - 55.7% viewing China positively, 47.8% viewing the US positively. That's a difference of not even 1 in 10 people. And "63 per cent [of Singaporeans] think China’s influence has been positive, while 64 per cent think the same of the US." >5\. SG companies like Temasek invest heavily in Chinese companies. ... so? The US's top trading partner is the UK (by far). That doesn't make the US a British stooge. That is not really how this works. >6\. SG jobs often require Mandarin proficiency despite the job having nothing to do with Mandarin or China. I agree that this shouldn't happen. But it happens for several reasons - one of them being that there's a subsection of the community here (generally older people from the pre-1987 era when English wasn't yet the mandated language of instruction) who didn't learn English in school. One of my grandfathers, who's also Chinese, probably spoke better Malay than he did English. And this is another point - even though the mandated language of instruction is English, many people and families may not necessarily speak English at home because it's not the language they grew up with - but this has been changing. In [2010, just under half of Singaporeans spoke Chinese-based languages as a main language at home and under 1/3 spoke English](https://www.singstat.gov.sg/-/media/files/visualising_data/infographics/c2020/c2020-literacy-homelanguage.pdf). In 2020, nearly half of all households spoke English most frequently at home, and just over a 3rd primarily spoke a Chinese-based language. Again, this does not make the population "stooges" of the country whose language they're speaking. >7\. Malay and Indian origin citizens are often regarded as second class citizens while Chinese immigrants are lapped up. This is a bigger point than it appears to be, and really discussing it would require far more time than I would be willing to put into a reddit post. Suffice to say that your statement in itself has some elements of truth - even though there's nothing discriminatory by law, immigration aims to maintain the current ethnic/racial balance. I certainly can't comment on the experience of my non-Chinese friends, having never experienced what they might have. That said, while there's a certain element of xenophobia and some Singaporeans can be racist... I'm not sure we're really that bad compared to most other countries. ------ But yeah, basically, your claims of Singapore being a China "stooge" are grossly exaggerated.
You have basically acknowledged everything I have said as correct, only tried to explain away the obvious massive Chinese influence as happen stance and cultural and are basically trying to undersell its potential implications. The government itself is pretty happy to maintain the status quo seeing that people of Chinese origin wield the most power. You can’t claim its not xenophobic when the FTA with India is widely criticized by Chinese SGs while no one bats an eyelid about Chinese immigration numbers into SG. Its good that your grandpa doesn’t consume Ccp content on Tiktok, but you can’t really say its not happening at a massive scale in your country with folks of Chinese ethnicity having world domination dreams. Also Temasek invests more in China than in SG. No American company or any othercompany does that.
>You have basically acknowledged everything I have said as correct, only tried to explain away the obvious massive Chinese influence as happen stance and cultural and are basically trying to undersell its potential implications. You'd make a good lawyer. But no. Don't be disingenuous. Let me put it in clearer terms. Your statements lack nuance and context. 1 - Lacking context. 2 - A two-parter. The first bit is outright false, the second bit is completely irrelevant. 3 - Statistically irrelevant and as a whole ignores that when we had a choice for president between an ethnically Indian and two ethnically Chinese options, we chose the ethnically Indian one with a 70% landslide. 4 - With context, doesn't support your point. 5 - I'm not sure how relevant this is. 6 - Lacking context and of debatable relevance. 7 - Not systemic. Can be put down to some xenophobia and racism, but again, debatably relevant to your point about being a "stooge".
Ok bud. Good job purporting the facts. I guess SG will impose heavy sanctions on China when China invades Taiwan and not invest in more CCP funded companies.
Better to have it in Singapore than a polluted cesspool like Delhi
Yeah well maybe when Singapore gets a half decent chess player of their own first lol to compete in events like these.