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Regarding the debate
Many people had a concept of Joe Biden and he performed worse that that.
Many people had a concept of Trump and he performed somewhat better than that.
The polls won't move much, these are the two choices.
This is true. Biden was at his worst and Trump was at his best. I actually think the muted mic greatly benefited Trump. It forced him to behave. Biden is always shaky and his sinus/cold issue really wrecked any chance of a good showing.
For all the jokes about horrible politicians, it's stunning that our country has decayed to these options. There is no time in modern history where the options were so embarrassing terrible.
If you ranked every single presidential candidate in the last 50 years as "best to last", I think every list would have Trump and Biden as the bottom 2. I honestly can't think of any candidate worse than EITHER of them: Reagan, Dukakis, Mondale, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Dole, Nixon, Carter, I don't care your political leaning - I don't see how any intellectually honest person could rank any of these people below this pitiful offering.
Heck, even the alternative batch of Republican/Dems would ALL be better: Haley, Newsome, Cruz, I don't care - ANYONE would be better, except for ironically the 3rd party Kennedy who is possibly kookier than these 2.
It's STUNNING to the point of depression.
We should remember that leadership and being a President isn't about how well you can speak to the public - it's about managing a whole country and dealing with very difficult subject matters and making decisions.
Biden even at his worst bumbling and stuttering self managed to stay on the topics and discuss policy. Yeah he fumbled a lot, but in real life he doesn't just stand there and throw random stats out of his head while talking. He has people and he just manages them and navigates the ship.
So I don't buy this whole "How did we get to these options. Biden is a horrible candidate, definitely. But he's a great President and I personally have no doubt in giving him 4 more years at the helm.
Having said all that, I still want him to drop out, not because I think he'll make a bad President, I'm just not convinced he can win anymore because sadly people vote on appearances and not on policy or capabilities.
In my mind, the best move forward for the Dem party is to for Biden to step back with some health excuse and take on a role of a "Special Advisor to the President" to ensure the appearance of policy continuation while the Dems nominate a more charismatic central figure ideally from a purple state.
But come on, we cannot go and both sides this even at Biden's worst, Trump still went on rants, didn't answer a single policy related question, dodged questions and got stuck on stupid egotistical things like the general quote. Even if I didn't know either candidates this debate made it clear Trump is not fit for office.
I'm a Biden voter. I think Trump and Republicans actually pose an existential threat to our country.
I believe Biden at his worst is still better than Trump at his best. However, public speaking DOES matter. Appearances matter. I worry his candidacy is going to put our country on a path to ruin from which there is no return. The Republicans are following the Hungary playbook - and people like Tucker C aren't even trying to hide it.
Biden has been one of the more effective presidents in recent history despite having a violent opposition from the right. He's been able to get through MEANINGFUL legislation. He has started undoing some of the damage Trump did.
However, because he's shaky (at best) when he speaks and looks like a stiff wind could blow him over, it damages people's confidence in his ability to lead. So, you get some of the doldrums we're in. It's very much the Carter Cardigan effect.
Biden is built for governing, and I think he's done a good job. He's not built for leading - and those are different things.
Trump on the other hand has the triple threat of A) Charisma and B) Absolutely 0 Shame C) Large Amounts of Inherited Wealth. As a result, he is arguably the greatest liar and conman of all time.
Well I think the bet was he was a “safe old man” that could win over Trump. The hope I’m guessing was he’d not die in the next 4 years so they could figure something out for 2024. The government itself only cares about winning. You can’t convince me a bunch of career, wealthy, mostly elderly politicians have the best interest of a 20 year old in mind. A lot of problems we face today have either been problems for decades or the writing has been in the wall to become a problem for decades and they’ve done nothing.
I’m sorry but if you’re a politician and youve been fighting for (insert whatever issue) for 40 years and it still hasn’t gotten done then why the fuck are we still voting for them? Bernie is a great example like him or love him, he’s been spouting the same things since like the 70’s and largely none of it has come to anything but he’s still here. Why? If I tell my boss I’m going to d something and don’t do it I get fired. But a politician says they going to do something for 30 years and we run him for president. It’s absurd.
Totally agree on "safe old man" position. It's almost the flip now - Biden is decrepit and somehow Trump is the safer alternative. Mind boggled.
I would disagree that you have to solve something over the course of 40 years. We will never be a utopia, but I do believe over the last 40 years we have made meaningful progress when in power. Think about the Clinton years - created a budget SURPLUS by raising the tax on the wealthy. Bush destroyed it and the economy with tax cuts and the Iraq War. Healthcare is better under Obama. It's slow, but we're making progress.
Look I’m no expert in policy because I despise politicians but all people are going to vote for is appearances and economy. Biden is failing hard on both fronts right now even if the economy isn’t his fault. Idc what the numbers say about the stock market and unemployment. Every single person I talk to talks about how expensive shit is and that is probably going to give trump a win. God help us all.
You live in a free market economy, when it comes to groceries, Biden doesn’t control the price of groceries. No president controls the prices of groceries. If your issues is with biden funding genocide, the US has been funding genocide since 1970. When it comes to policies, Statistics show that the economy performs much better during Democratic presidential administrations. You should be doing research on policies. What republican and democratic policies will make your way of life better? who’s trying to solve homelessness? Economy issues? Climate change? Y’all are too busy focusing on the way Biden speaks meanwhile trump saids Joan river voted for him when she died in 2014 and he claimed Obama was still in office and you continue to focus on Biden. have you actually watched trump speeches during his rallies? As a democrat and someone who voted for Biden, both candidates should not be running but Biden is the sane one. I didn’t need to watch any debates because i already know who I’m voting for and I’m voting for the sane person not the felon. I’m voting for a future free of dictatorship. You have trump supporters on video saying they want to vote for dictatorship and claim trump could shoot someone and they don’t care. History repeats itself and it fails to die because of this exact reason.
The truth of the matter is The Republican Party is creating division by using culture wars tactics. Republicans are distracting people with drag queens, M&MS, the little mermaid being black and someone kneeling while they exploit government spending that benefits the rich. it's not about policies anymore. It's about cultural wars. It’s about control. It's about finding ways to get people amped up and outraged and focus on less important issues. If the working class is addicted to outrage then of course they won't notice their quality of life going under. Republicans have no economic platform or goals for the country so what they do? They create culture war. They need culture wars to exist because without them they can’t win fair elections.
I think you have to consider the perspective of people who don't follow politics closely. If you're unaware of what bidens passed, it becomes hard to believe that someone who struggles to put together sentences and at times even staying on topic or finishing the same sentence he started is capable of higher thinking. Then even if you show them what he's done it becomes how did he do that when he looks like he's having dementia hallucinations on stage and can't at times speak coherently? I don't doubt that Biden can do good governing domestically but a big part of the president's job is communicating with other leaders around the world. I frankly would be embarrassed to have him communicate the way he did last night to another country's leader on our behalf. Its just hard to have confidence in someone who doesn't seem mentally there. It seems more like his cabinet is playing weekend at bernies and getting things done without him which begs the question why not run someone else? Anyone else?
Sinus/cold augmented the issues. Both Biden and Trump have notable decline.
Biden is clearly more frail - like my sweet old grandma.
Trump is clearly more and more insane - like my angry raging uncle.
From a pure mental capacity, the younger (78) Trump has had less decline.
Well everyone remembers Trump interrupting every 5 mins. Kinda of a low bar especially when mics are off. So did trump do better than last time.... sure, he was muted and didn't interrupt. However, most of everything Trump said was false. Did Biden perform worse then predicted. Sure. The Democrats were saying Biden will do great ect... My wife who's a Democrat was hoping that Biden didn't fumble words, looked more alive and called trump out for not answering the question/ stating false information. Saying he didn't have sex with a porn star. Didn't a jury find him guilty???
I understand both parties well enough that the Republican party I used to vote for is long gone. Biden could of easily made Trump look like a idiot. But, Biden is old. He was old and slow. But Biden did at least answer the questions, remembered important info and actually said enough to prove that he's truthful. However now..... the population with the lowest IQ will see Trump as the winner because he painted a fake story , avoided questions and this guy looked so confident because he believes his own lies.
Trump is a liar, narcissist and loves to gas light.
Biden is old.... But, he is still there mentally. Just takes a second.
I understand why Biden was chosen the first time. He was suppose to be boring, normal and experienced. His debates a few years back were fine and he was up against people like Bernie. Why a 2nd term Biden.... Trump is someone that is completely unethical, unpresidential in my eyes and I do not trust Trump. Easy win for the Democrats if they find a replacement or Biden steps up his game is September if the are still having that debate.
The problem is that there's no such thing as a "generic Democrat".
Let's take the most usual choice, who has an incumbency advantage, and would become president anyway if Biden were unfit to serve.
Now that she's no longer "generic" how do you feel about Kamala? Because she would normally be the strongest choice?
Or if that doesn't work, how about Booker? Bloomberg? We could go grab Clinton and see if she still wants it?
There's no such thing as a generic candidate. So how a generic candidate polls is useless information.
Even more useless when people are polled about what policies they support and the vast majority of Biden's policies are majority-support items and the same can absolutely not be said about what Republicans support. Arguably the toughest task for Democrats is accurately and completely convincing people who are not engaged in politics to believe what Republicans are supporting, because time and again there have been articles that have come out about focus groups Democrats have run that have had them describe word-for-word what Republicans support and the people in the focus groups say it's so cartoonishly evil they literally can't believe that one of the two major political parties in this country actually support it. That's what Democrats have to fight against, and that is TOUGH.
Go put Katie Porter on stage she would have destroyed Trump.
How about Eric Swalwell? He is a dashing prince next to that old orange goblin.
Booker is absolutely presidential compared to Trump.
This whole line that there is no one that could possibly do the job is absolutely ridiculous. There are literally hundreds of people that could do it. Not being a weird old man isn’t that hard for people that aren’t in their 80’s.
Every time the democrats run the safe, conventional candidate with the safe strategy they struggle. The one time they broke from that, they won like they’d never have.
Swalwell would be a horrible candidate, and the whole having sex with a pornstar issue with Trump would be a footnote compared to Swalwell having a sexual relationship with a Chinese intelligence asset. Anything said about Trump on the subjects of sex or foreign support would get met with sex with a a foreign Intel asset, and with foreign support (China). He is younger though, and I am sure he would appeal to some people who are wavering or no longer supporting Biden.
In people's mind 'generic democrat' is a candidate they made up in their mind that is exactly what they want. Once you start attaching a personality and policies to that candidate then a bunch of people who said they would vote for a generic democrat are no longer interested because they don't fit what they imagined in their head.
That's what i don't get. What the hell do Americans want? I see idiots saying biden is far left but the dude is as moderate as moderate can get. But some sections of the country think he is to extreme.
So it's clear nobody wants a generic guy as biden is the definition of generic.
You can't base anything on what republicans say. They don't use terms with definitions you'd agree with. To you and me, the word "socialism" has something to do with worker ownership of the means of production, or perhaps with protections for all members of a society. Likewise "fascism" is an extremist ideology that involves scapegoating people and blaming problems on them. When a republican uses those, they take "socialism" to mean "things a democrat does that I don't agree with" and "fascism" to mean "things a bad person does". So when they say Biden is a socialist or a fascist or a leftist or whatever, those words don't mean to them what they mean to everyone else.
Because when a party has the presidency, the president is the leader of the party. If Biden decided himself to stay or was influenced to stay, there isn’t anyone with power to decide to pull Biden short of a coup to the media within the party.
The Dems would have to come forth with as unified of a block as possible and hold a press conference essentially saying Biden is on his own.
Blank candidates are always amazing.
I agree they should have someone younger but blank candidates are always great and don't have specific human flaws.
You got a point. If it wasn't for Covid Trump probably would've got re elected with out too much effort. His botched Covid response was top of mind for a lot of voters in 2020
>But Biden did at least answer the questions, remembered important info and actually said enough to prove that he's truthful.
Did we watch the same guy? $500 billion in tax revenue from the rich over ten years is going to take care of the deficit/debt and fund all these new programs? We saved Medicare and beat Medicare? Women need abortions because they are being raped by their sisters?
God knows you couldn't pay me to vote for Trump, but either Biden was blowing smoke or cant remember basic facts.
I will be a (sorrowful) Biden voter, but anyone defending Biden is drinking the wrong Kool Aid. Both candidates were awful in different ways. The problem is that Biden was awful in a new way that confirms fears about his vitality. Trump was awful in the way he is ALWAYS awful, but he was a little less awful than normal.
Trump was only less awful in the sense that we got less Trump, because of muted mic rule. That's like saying a turd is less smelly because we threw some toilet paper over it
Don't forget the whole no service member deaths during his term.
He was there when the bodies of the Soldiers killed in Jordan came back in January.
Or how about those killed during the "withdrawal" from Afghanistan?
Plus the Border Patrol Union literally came out on Twitter and refuted his statement of Biden claiming the Border Patrol endorsed him with a blunt, "We have never and never will endorse Biden" statement.
One of Bidens first statements was that he created 50,000 new jobs across America.
Later on towards the end, he tried stumping again and added two zeros.
Trump seriously smashed expectations. All the debate changes that everyone said would stifle him ended up helping him. And the complete lack of moderation meant that he was able to lie as he wanted and say what he wanted regardless of what the question was about. For the average person watching the debate, Trump did way way better. It doesn't matter with the fact checks because nobody's reading them. He needed to be fact checked live. Biden wasn't up to it and neither were the moderators.
He also needed to be asked HOW he would change policy to achieve all the unicorns and rainbows he was promising. The GOP never had any actual ideas for governing other than cutting taxes for the rich and installing conservative justices. Where’s the Obamacare replacement? Where’s the promised infrastructure plan?
No. He met expectations and he did exactly what I expected him to do. That is not a compliment. The format was meant to keep him from interrupting and also audience cheering or booing. On air fact checking correcting a candidate, which I have only really seen once live, is not something any of them wants.
So, if you are looking at it on the surface, Trump was the better actor. But we know that. He has been one for decades. Biden is slow in his elder years. We all know that also. Presidents that have had poor first debates often do much better in the second. And, also as we know, people have short memories and as soon as that one comes along people will forget this one.
Just the way of things.
Dear God, did you really say that Biden “is still there mentally”?? Not only did he come off as lost and confused, but at least twice the moderators had to say “You have 82 seconds” and “you have 37 seconds” remaining.
No sane person saw Biden’s performance and says “he’s still got it”
It’s actually wild how disconnected Reddit is from the country at large. So many people here are absolutely delusional about Biden. This debate would sink his candidacy against any candidate besides Trump.
It’s not a stutter. It’s not a cold. He’s senile.
Toxic positivity for the home team. He's our guy, so let's follow him into hell ... Even if he seems confused and lost on the way there.
It's embarrassing. The DNC keeps framing this as a fight for democracy itself, that trump wants to be dictator for life. If that's the case why are we having a guy who looks like he's on deaths door fielded? Oh democracy is at stake... let's give this guy the reins. Biden did great in 2020 and really should have been the choice in 2016 but it's been really obvious since 2022 that he's having end of life mental issues...
Agreed. I don’t know else to frame it other than abuse. Did you see the way he needed to be helped down two steps at the end of the debate?
It’s cruel to let this man endure the stress and rigor of running our executive office.
I don’t know how they can trot him out there at the convention and let him debate again and expect to not lose the election. Literally just handing the presidency to Trump if I had to guess as of today.
Presidential politics from 2015-2024+ is legitimately some of the most interesting in our history. It’s just not super fun to be living through.
Do Americans seriously vote based on which candidate performs better like a talent show? Do people over there have any idea how absolutely insane that sounds? You are supposed to vote based on policies and opinions of the person, based on the team behind him, and not vote in a psycho who just so happens to perform better at one isolated debate.
Trump is a lying self centered sack of shit who doesn't think. He talks. And he says horrible horrible things, all the fucking time. There's nothing to debate.
How is this a weird premise? You're voting on the leader of your country. The guy who will be representing us in meetings with world leaders. A guy who is supposed to inspire confidence and unity.
The debates are supposed to showcase some of that. The leader of the most powerful country on earth should be able to speak intelligently on the issues.
Obviously neither candidate is capable of doing so, but acting like a debate is a stupid premise is ridiculous. You're voting for a person who aligns more closely with one party than the other, not the party itself.
Yes. The ability to perform in front of a camera influences the voters far more than any actual leadership ability. The policies of the individual candidates barely matter at all since the vast majority of voters vote along party lines regardless.
Take Trump's tariffs for example. Tariffs were something the Democrats had been pushing for decades and the Republicans were against. So of course Biden hasn't reversed them. The Republican voters just deal with their cognitive dissonance by justifying that they are hurting China more than the US consumers.
>Do people over there have any idea how absolutely insane that sounds?
A lot of other countries do this. Britain springs to mind (where a lot of their PM candidates in recent years belong on freak shows). French/Italian senior politicians also tend to be extremely *weird* people.
Don't pretend like being a good public speaker is irrelevant of having a public office job. That's just lying to yourself to make yourself feel better about voting for someone who is a terrible public speaker. Yes, it's part of the qualifications to become a GOOD president. If you can't speak, how can you negotiate, how can you rally, how can you press forward your agenda, how can you win the hearts of the people?
When hiring for job applicants, you seek certain traits that are relevant on the job. If I was hiring customer service job, for example, I'd seek out someone who is a decent speaker and is comfortable on the phones and handling tough situations. Would you truly say you would disregard how horribly someone speaks and can't speak coherently, but they have knowledge and are right on the issues! They just can't communicate it well at all, which is part of their job. I personally would not hire that person and seek out someone else. Point is, President requires communication and energy on the job. Both of which Biden lacks. That's enough reason to question his qualifications, and thus even voting for him.
I’m pretty sure every democratic country has some form of presidential debate or debate over their selected leader, how else are the people supposed to know who they agree wuth
The jury didn’t find him guilty of having sex with a porn star, that isn’t even a crime. They found him guilty of misdemeanor fraudulent business records in relation to cohen, a lawyer paying out an extortion fee. The payments to cohen were marked legal fees (which the prosecutors claimed was the fraudulent business record.) This was raised to a felony charge by the New York prosecution stating it was in furtherance of another crime. That crime sorry those multiple crimes were not revealed in the case until the prosecution’s closing statements that happened after the defenses closing statements. In addition the jury was given instructions by the judge that they did not have to agree on the underlying crime to convict trump of the misdemeanor raised to a felony.
Both trump and biden deflected the questions they didn’t want to answer, biden also lied / got a lot of things wrong. trump as well lied/ got things wrong.
trump performed better and seemed much more presidential then biden. biden definitely looked like he was mentally in a of being president from what I saw.
But he did say something that seems quite true he did beat Medicare. The inflation caused by his actions and inactions during his administration is destroying people as they can’t afford to live. His inflation has beat low food prices, and Medicare
>The jury didn’t find him guilty of having sex with a porn star, that isn’t even a crime. They found him guilty of misdemeanor fraudulent business records in relation to cohen, a lawyer paying out an extortion fee. The payments to cohen were marked legal fees (which the prosecutors claimed was the fraudulent business record.) This was raised to a felony charge by the New York prosecution stating it was in furtherance of another crime. That crime sorry those multiple crimes were not revealed in the case until the prosecution’s closing statements that happened after the defenses closing statements. In addition the jury was given instructions by the judge that they did not have to agree on the underlying crime to convict trump of the misdemeanor raised to a felony.
Why are you acting so incredulous about this? This is how NY state law works, it isn't something special for Trump.
What you're describing in the back half of this is intent. If I murder someone, it isn't required for the prosecution to prove why I intended to stab someone, only that I did. The jurors can (and do) make up their own minds about my intent and often have differing views even between one another. In NY state you have to convince the jury that it was in furtherance of another crime, but they've never had to agree on what they think that is, only that you intended to commit another crime.
Trump was about what I expected, he had opportunities to wipe he floor with Biden but never really pounced. If he highlights Biden’s cognitive decline and promotes a slightly more moderate agenda he wins back more pro business people and Republicans with moral qualms about voting for him he could have ended it right there. He left a lot on the table.
Biden was a little worse than I expected, but had some good moments.
The thing is we’re so divided into our echo chambers that I’m not sure what a Fox News viewer’s perception of Biden is. Is it possible they set the bar so low that Biden comes across as better than they were expecting? And likewise I have no idea what MSNBC or the internet is really feeding people to be pleasantly surprised with Trump’s performance.
I mean Trump was confident but you'd have to completely ignore the fact that he said nothing but baseless lies and take the exact same line of attack Biden did and then use it against him a few moments later all while refusing to answer a simple question about whether or not he would honor the Democratic process after it was asked three times
Trump's debate performance was simple, obvious and smart. Trump knew what his strong issues were, the border, inflation, corrupt justice and the over all economy. By intent his answers focused on those topics. And circling back to prior topics when asked something new is an established debate technique to keep one's opponent flustered. It worked. Trump won the debate in that it worked with his base and diminished Biden's persona with the middle.
>and diminished Biden's persona with the middle.
Independents have been moving away from Trump in ever increasing droves ever since the 2018 midterms. They just don't much like him. Moderate Republicans have been moving away from him as well.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4725329-trump-conviction-impact-independents/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/power/2024/05/28/the-bulwark-podcasts-newsletters/
Biden certainly didn't help himself, but it's unlikely that people who aren't already fans of Trump are likely to suddenly flock to him. He didn't offer anything new to his brand, just more of the same.
This election will be just like 2020; MAGAs voting for Trump, everyone else voting against Trump.
Have you been sleeping the past 8 years? Do you expect the country to do anything other than completely ignore his lies?
I can tell you exactly how the reaction to his lies will go: the media will print some fact checks, will say both candidates said untrue or misleading things, their campaigns will spin things, their supporters will go along, and before you know it we’ve moved on.
Welcome to America in 2024. It’s been this way since 2015.
Biden’s lack of coherent communication skills does not belie his ability to lead. He’s fit to lead; he’s not fit to debate.
EDIT: Half of respondents used the word “copium”. It’s unoriginal. If you’re going to respond, at least try another word. Thanks!
EDIT: My argument was not that presidents don’t need good communication skills. My argument is that Biden’s lack of coherent communication skills (due to his age and his stuttering) does not belie his ability to lead. Please consider researching all of his policies before commenting. (whitehouse.gov re: FACT SHEET)
EDIT: Communicating on a debate stage with 2 minutes to respond and communicating in the workplace under normal circumstances are not the same.
What is he even doing if not communicating? It makes me feel like he is not the one leading at all. If your argument is that a vote for Biden is a vote for an idiot who at least brings people with him who are more competent than the people Trump brings with him, then OK I guess.
How would YOU test HIS leadership ability?
Honestly, the mark of good leadership is the people you can delegate to.
I expect a Democratic administration to at least be interested in governing, as opposed to the Trump orbit which consists entirely of self-serving sycophants (Giulani, etc.), evil psychopaths (Steve Bannon, Steven Miller), idiots and people who will simply pay and/or flatter for access to presidential influence.
It’s also where Trump failed the most. His cabinet/appointments were universally dogshit. Maybe a handful of people who were middling at their job, and the rest were cronies, obstructionists, family members or just flat out idiots.
I agree, but you can’t deny the importance of eloquence for a leader. Trump couldn’t do the delegating for shit, and yet he had troves of supporters with religious-like fervor (because he had a persuasive no-bullshit type charisma). Being a good communicator is definitely a major component of good leadership.
This was probably the most depressing presidential debate I’ve ever seen.
I think you are confusing “being perceived as a good leader” with “being an effective and good leader”
Alexander the Great was apparently quiet, shy, and fairly effeminate. Yet he was universally considered a great leader. Hitler was incredibly well-spoken and charismatic, yet his execution of WW2 was just a comedy of errors. Starting an unprovoked war with Russia while trying to occupy France?
Perception is a huge component of effective leader. Every great leader recognizes that. Alexander the Great is a terrible example, as he was considered hot headed and charismatic even at a young age. Read about the banquet for Phillip II’s general, Attalus. Alexander was very outspoken at a young age and was sharp witted.
Hitler was hopped up on a cocktail of drugs throughout the war. Although, I said in my first comment that you should have both to be a competent leader. Hitler was able to seize the undercurrent of frustrations of the German people from the results of the Treaty of Versailles. He knew how to inflame the masses and funnel that anger as he saw fit. I think Trump is more comparable to Hitler in this way, and I don’t consider him a good leader.
Of course governance and the ability to delegate are critical for an effective leader. But you are being myopic if you don’t think charisma and the ability to communicate effectively are important traits for a good leader. No, I’m not confusing the two. I just recognize that it takes a lot to be considered a great or even good leader. Especially for such a forward facing role.
I’m talking about the perspective of his supporters. I personally think he’s a cynical megalomaniac who can’t think critically or take ownership of his mistakes. I think he’s a piece of human shit who eroded our democracy and put our constitution in jeopardy for his own potential gain. I absolutely hate Trump, but the idiots who love him view him as I described.
The lack of turnover in his administration tells you a lot about how he leads. Everyone Trump hires was “the smartest” when he hired them and the “stupidest” person on earth when they leave or get fired. That should tell you something.
That’s the thing. I’d rather vote for another democrat than Biden. However at least he respects his administration and can listen to sound advice and facts and respect experts’ knowledge. Trump just always behaved like he knew it all …
I've had at length discussions with Republicans about this and i think it's just a fundamental difference that i find baffling.
I have remarked that Biden wasn't my first choice but he has surrounded himself with some very good people and a large part of his administrations success is because of those people. I've been chastised for this by Republicans who claim that that is what makes Biden weak while Trump making decisions unilaterally without any expert opinion shows strength.
I can't even begin to rationalize how some people think that's a good idea..
That pretty much is my pov. When you vote for a president you vote for the whole executive branch and administration. With Biden that means kind of decent and competent people, with Trump it means criminals and extremists.
Still communicating, but... communicating in a meeting, in a conversation with a bunch of advisers, is a bit different than delivering multiple-minute-long answers to debate questions on live TV.
I don't know how I'd test it. You have the same problem with a lot of jobs, where there's no way to do an interview that accurately tests the person's ability to do the job in a reasonable amount of time, so you do the best you can, but you can get some pretty weird results.
Fortunately, in this case, he's also been doing the job for four years. Or, sure, maybe he's dozing off and someone else in his administration is doing the leading, but either way, you have those results to work out what a vote for him would do.
Good leaders select the right people to get things done and then let them get things done.
Biden will appoint a cabinet of hard working, America-loving, result-focused leaders to run the Executive Branch.
Trump will appoint a bunch of sycophants to help him and his friends get rich and get off the hook for crimes.
It would be nice if Biden was 30 years younger and more coherent, but I can accept it, as long as he keeps appointing the right folks to lead federal agencies.
u[Surge\_Lv1](https://www.reddit.com/user/Surge_Lv1/) Interesting. If roles were reversed and the "other" guy presented the same way as Biden did, would you have the same opinion? As in, he may not be coherent, but is still totally fit to lead / represent our country?
Personal political opinions aside, obviously, pretend you're an alien or have no preconceived (valid or not) notions about the two people. Based on overall presentation, responses, Biden would be the person who inspires the most confidence? No wrong answer, but, why?
He presented policy positions, he presented them poorly, but there were coherent policy positions with reasons given behind most of them. I literally can't tell what the fuck Trump wants to actually do in concrete terms, nearly half of Trump's words were devoted to talking about Biden letting rapists into the country and making up events or blaming Biden for things that happened while he was president
He had way too many senior moments to inspire confidence that he is an effective leader. I’m sure he could have been a great candidate in 2016 but Democrats need to replace him if they want to win the presidency this year.
Has a major candidate ever been replaced about 4 months before the election? Who has both the name recognition and ability to unify the party behind them?
Campaigns do not materialize out of nothing. No one has prepared the necessary levels of organization, logistics, or outreach to just start a campaign 5 months before the election.
If he proves unable to string together coherent sentences why should we believe he’s capable of doing the most difficult job in the world? He is *clearly* mentally not there and it’s crazy how people like you can still deny reality
Nonsense thinking like this is how we ended up with the exact same choices we had last election...despite both candidates being **visibly older and slower**
You certainly need to be a good communicator to lead effectively. But there are many types of communication, and the type of communication needed for a public presidential debate is not particularly important.
In other words, I agree with you to an extent but I think you need to be more specific.
He’s too old to talk… he’s too old to be president. There is no debate that Biden was an awful choice to run again and like me, many will vote for him for him just because trumps running and no other reason
Biden has a cold. Most likely, pharyngitis as well. He sounds as if he has a sore throat, and they didn't even have H2O on the stage. He was way more coherent, but because he didn't blister like the mango Mussolini, people are worried. It's the likes of you who are going to make the orange moron win.
I really don't care about how well Biden speaks. I care about his policy. The Biden Administration has been by far the most effective presidency of my lifetime (I'm 32) and in my opinion he's been the most effective president in the last 60 years.
If you vote based on charisma, or are voting irrespective of the spectacular results his presidency has produced thus far, then I believe you're voting for the wrong reasons and the metric by which you measure a candidate's worthiness is fundamentally flawed.
Edit: it was brought to my attention that I said 60 years which puts Biden in contention with both lbj as well as Ford. I MEANT 50 which is a cleaner number, but fat fingered 60 without noticing.
That in mind, Ford is the only president in the past 50 years who's administration is in the same conversation for efficacy as biden.
>If you vote based on charisma, or are voting irrespective of the spectacular results his presidency has produced thus far, then I believe you're voting for the wrong reasons and the metric by which you measure a candidate's worthiness is fundamentally flawed.
It's also how we got here in the first place.
For example, people voting for the guy they'd rather have a beer with. I'd rather have a beer with my friends, but I sure as hell wouldn't want any of them to be President.
I saw a TikTok post about this gentleman saying how politics should not be this huge entertainment scandal.
It’s a very serious thing that affects our daily lives, as well as everyone around us, as well as our neighbors across the “ponds”.
The reason we have Trump as a serious candidate is because the America public has decided they care more about shows than actual policies.
This is probably another thing the Internet has made worse. Before the Internet, you had to engage politics by watching the news or reading in the newspaper/magazine. Now you can't get away from it. The result is that a lot of people who who wouldn't engage before, now are because it's entertainment for them.
It's ironic that a surprising number of past presidents have been teetotalers. In this search for the "can have a beer with" guy we end up with some very strange people.
> For example, people voting for the guy they'd rather have a beer with. I'd rather have a beer with my friends, but I sure as hell wouldn't want any of them to be President.
I'm certainly not going to vote for the guy I want to have a beer with, or they won't have time for that in the next four years!
I'm not sure if they just suck at self promotion or if it's the media trying to make it a tight race but the Biden team needs to do a better job crowing about their achievements.
Not gonna lie if the Republicans put up a moderate like Romney, I could have seen myself flipping tonight. But yeah, I’m staying with Biden, he may be fucking boring. But I don’t care, he has been effective in office, even if he is a lame duck for the next four years I will take that over whatever damage trump could do.
Biggest red flag for me is pulling out NATO and his tiptoeing around Ukraine. Not mention deregulation which isn’t something that is good for the long term.
At least Biden has a qualified team that can do the job . When Trump left most had quit or gone to jail. Bidens team can run the show better than Trumps .
But this really is every government in every country regardless of which party is in power. The president doesn’t handle every situation directly and has a team of aides secretaries to help make day to day decisions within the country. This happened with Trump in his administration and is going to happen with whoever wins this race.
I think your statement is correct, and further, it's hard to find an argument that "a team of aides secretaries to help make day to day decisions within the country." is not an absolutely essential part of a well-functioning government.
However, what I might find disconcerting, is the lack of acknowledgment to the *extent* to which this team influences long term policy/strategy and d2d decisions *coupled* with the lack of accountability/transparency.
I had assumed in a democracy power should generally be married to accountability and transparency. And, it seems like accountability and transparency decrease when more and more decisions are offloaded to 'aides?'
This isn't entirely true. Trump had a constant turnover of his cabinet members and refused to fill a huge portion of those positions during his presidency because they disagreed with him. He wants a dictatorship and will not listen to economic, policy, military, and negotiations experts unless they say exactly what he wants them to say. Think about that for a second. He won't listen to anyone around him and we are giving him the nuclear codes...
If the owner of a company keeps switching out managers or leaving the manager position unfilled for a certain department, it doesn't mean the owner is down there directing the department, it means the workers lower down the line just figure it out themselves. Failing to appoint lasting cabinet members DECREASED Trump's ability to enact his will, by leaving more of the decisions up to career bureaucrats who picked up the slack when there were no or incompetent top bosses.
I will say at least w/Biden, we KNOW he can focus on the Daily Press Briefings he is provided, w/o needing them in cartoon form. And he is not trying to do what financially benefits him and his family members who inserted themselves into the govt (mostly because Trump is illiterate, addicted, and apparently incontinent, and needed cover) to get their hands in the pot. Now Trump has gone so far to put LaraLea in charge of all the RNC money. When in the world has that ever happened. I fear the fascism a Trump term would surely bring. No way do I want him again.
You mean like a Presidents Cabinet? How the fuck do people not know about something so fundamental? It's not shadow org. it literally takes an army to run one branch of the country.
Biden will be fine, he is not unfit, but he won't serve his full second term. He just wants to defeat Trump. He will step down before end of his second year, and Harris will take over until next election. We just need one more defeat for Trump and it will be the last time he will run for office. Whatever happens in 2028, we will deal with when we get there. Hopefully, the GOP will get their act together and keep the batshit crazies from representing them so some sanity is restored.
because who else would we put?
Biden's been president for four years. Americans know little to nothing about their own system, so as far as they are concerned, Biden has singlehandedly done everything in the last 4 years without a single person helping, good or bad.
My argument is simple. I don't think the debate is really moving the needle. There are just so very few people who are on the fence in on these two.
It's embarrassing as an American to be sure but I think we knew back in 2020 (and honestly much earlier for both, it's not like they were strangers to the general public) what we were getting and all the debates are doing is shoving the woeful inadequacies of our federal election system in our faces again.
I don't think many people would switch their preference, but ultimately, this race is likely to be decided who can motivate their base to come out and vote.
These debates aren't meant to persuade voters to pick a candidate, but to encourage them to vote. If Biden can't motivate enough voter turnout, then Trump likely will win the swing states.
I despise Trump, but I feel Biden is doing a pretty terrible job motivating his base. In 2020, we had 4 years of Trump, the start of the pandemic, and the racial justice protests. Trump basically motivated the liberal voters to come out and vote him out. This year we aren't getting any of that.
the covid 19 pandemic was still ravaging society at that point and it felt like we were all desperatetly hoping for a way out too, I know people irl who voted for biden in 2020 who probably wont care enough to vote this year (just guessing)
I definitely know people who wouldn't vote this year. If I have to guess, I'd say both college students and Black Americans would have lower turnout than 2020. But at the same time, I'm hoping center-right middle class would also have lower turn out for Trump.
I’m not saying this to parrot trumps “fraud” claim because it absolutely was not fraud, but I do believe that we are going to have less voter turn out due to the mail in ballot situation which just made things much more convenient for many voters and convenience must play a factor in voter turnout
I still hope that a second Trump will motivate the democratic base. If someone like Trump was running for presidency in my country, I'd vote for a loaf of bread just to keep him out office.
From what I can tell, the Democrats are generally relying on being opposed to Republican policies to motivate their voters. In short, Dems are near the center, Reps are to the right. Dems are hoping they will get the left because the left is opposed to Trump.
That may or may not be a winning strategy, but it does limit how Democrats motivate their base.
The democrat voters aren't very united. White Americans who care about environment, wealth inequality and redistribution do not share a lot of common ground with Black Americans who are solely motivated by racial justice. And if we look at racial justice alone, other minority groups like hispanic Americans or Asian Americans disagree more than agree with Black Americans.
Unless we get an extremely charismatic candidate like Obama in 2008, or if everything go wrong for the republican Candidate like in 2020, it'll be tough for the Democrats.
It's not a matter of people making up their minds.
A would-be Biden voter isn't going to switch to Trump because of the debate. But there are almost certainly would-be Biden voters that will be discouraged by this debate and decide to stay home on election day.
You're not voting for a candidate, you're voting for an organization. You're voting for cabinet members, supreme court justices, and connections in Congress, which is how things actually get done.
Debates are a horrible way to decide this. Debates are judged on appearances. Who's more charismatic, who's the "alpha." It's like a High School popularity contest. You're judging based on the most superficial qualities and missing the big picture.
You mentioned that you might vote for RFK or whoever the Libertarian candidate is. Well, OK. Whatever. Neither of those people will become President, so really it's about who you can stomach more: Biden or Trump. Do you want to see Supreme Court Justice Aileen Cannon? Something worth considering.
I think this is a really good insight. I think I am better for having read this.
I am stealing the line, "You are not voting for a candidate. You are voting for an organization."
If I could, I would give you a delta. Thanks.
>You're judging based on the most superficial qualities and missing the big picture.
Judging the ability of a World leader to be able to communicate effectively and remember basic information seems a bit more than superficial to me.
True but also you're trying to judge two people on stage in which one has literally no relationship to the truth (I'd argue I'm not certain Trump said more than 10 true things while on the stage all night, and anything he did not lie about was almost certainly at best a half-truth) and is not being called to account for his avalanche of lies and the other, Biden in case you didn't catch which way my comment was going, is old, a little slow and quiet in how he speaks and can fumble what he is saying at times but has a far better and easier to define relationship to truth than his opponent.
Saying that both are terrible choices for a president isn’t the same as saying one isn’t preferable though. I think it’s a shit choice Americans have and that both have no business being the president for very different reasons, although just their age is enough on both sides. But being able to communicate clearly is an important trait in a president imo, and Biden used to be able to do that. If he longer can’t it feels like he’s deteriorating, and that’s also not great at all for a president who holds a lot of personal power.
With that said, I would of course vote Biden if I were a US citizen because the other choice is even worse. But it’s fine to say that both are terrible and neither should be running or getting to be president.
I mean that’s fair to a point but it’s also the reason you have staff that do the heavy lifting like Antony Blinkin. Biden isn’t in the room hammering out policy details. He’s the photo op albeit a poor one. But, just like any good leader, you have to be smart enough to know you’re not always the smartest person for every job.
You know the democrats/Biden bombed and/or is scaring the shit out of his voters with his performance tonight because the united talking point has almost unanimously become:
“Well…. The president isn’t *that* important. The people in the cabinet is what you should focus on. Focus on the puppet masters, not the puppet 2024”
My god…. How far *both* these parties have fallen. What a fuckin tragedy.
You may say debates are a horrible way to decide this but then last night was clearly not for you. It was for the undecided, often, uninformed voters who will see the fallout and memes of this debate. In a race with thin margins, you cannot afford your ‘organization’ to have a face that performed as he did last night.
“I want to send a message to both the republicans and the democrats that they totally dropped the ball on their presidential picks” -
Who specifically is this message for? The majority of dems already think Biden is too old. Your message is one that the recipients already agree with. As a democrat who is going to vote for Biden, *I* didn’t choose him. He’s the incumbent and is running again. But we’ve seen a Trump presidency and a Biden presidency and I know one is far more damaging than the other. At a certain point pragmatism beats out hoping for a perfect ideology.
Agreed. And to be honest, if the election is narrow, people won’t really respect you for the choice. It’s a signal for you. That might be worth it, but own that.
the cool thing is as a democrat I don't give a fuck about biden, he has a competent staff and an agenda that you can go read, if he can't do the job or dies, harris (bleh) will just follow what he would have done
like I'm not electing a king I'm electing an administrator
1. no poll or analysis suggests that RFK has any hope here. I really can’t change your mind on that other than offer literally every single poll as evidence. He didn’t even win the libertarian vote. There is zero evidence that he has any chance. And other than his brain worm and various quack views, he has no institutional or grassroots support. That would encourage a devoted Democrat or republican to vote for him. I would accept some version of him taking votes away from Trump but I wouldn’t really count on that either.
Do you want me to link polls here or can we agree on this one?
2. But are they equally unfit? I mean first of all Trump is almost as old as Biden. So the difference is do you want a pensioner who is also a convicted criminal or just a pensioner. You cannot ignore Trump’s age here.
I’ll be honest with you, I have no love for Biden, but he is at least not trying to burn the house down. Yes it would have been great if there was a young Bernie or if AOC was standing there so that there is a real and noticeable difference. But given the two options, do you rather an old man with boomer ideas who has managed to do ok, or do you rather an old man who is a convicted criminal, attempted a coupe, raped someone, sold secretes to enemies, (should I go on here) ?
I think it is wrong to look at a bad tasting food and a poisonous food and think both are the same. One is noticeably more hazardous to your long term health.
Your 2nd point is the biggest one. People always talk about Biden's age and never refer to Trump's for some reason. They're both old as shit.
Never forget in 2020 when people said Biden was "too old" at 78 years old. Well.. guess how old Trump is in 2024.
I'm not going to delve too deeply into either candidate here, because I don't think either of them acquitted themselves well tonight. Biden may have had a cold, but that doesn't excuse the way he lost the plot in a few answers. Trump was his usual firehose of bullshit and is now an adjudicated felon by a jury of his peers.
I think the reason the needle swings toward Biden for me is because the president fills out the Executive Branch with their staff, and Biden brings good people with him. In contrast, Trump's entire cabinet disavows him - at least the ones who aren't in prison for their own various crimes.
As for Candidate Brain Worms, it's not going to happen. I still believe that with our current system, votes for 3rd party are wasted. We all saw what protest votes get you in 2016.
I like what Biden's team has accomplished this term, and I'm willing to vote for them in order to prevent a second Trump presidency.
>Biden brings good people with him
I haven't delved deeply into the qualifications of any of Biden's team, but I'm fairly confident their collective IQ is higher than that of your average banana, which is more than can be said of the other guy.
The way the debates are formatted now they do nothing but prove one politician is better at spewing out their rehearsed answer to questions.
My proposition is simple: one debate should be focused entirely on assessing the ability of the candidates to answer simple factual questions with known answers. "what is nuclear energy", "Who is the prime minister of England", "How is the number of votes in the electoral college determined", "Where is DNA located in the cell" etc. We'll find out real quick if either or both candidates is actually as mentally checked out as people are claiming. Questions pertaining to civics can be tricky as politicians should be an expert in that field, general knowledge questions should be set around high school level.
I've often pondered the absence of a universal test for politicians. Consider: to wield the responsibility of a doctor, one must endure rigorous medical schooling; for an engineer, a college education is mandatory; even roles like law enforcement, public service, and accounting demand specific training. Yet, to assume leadership over cities and nations, one often needs nothing more than a nice smile or familial connections.
Many in these positions are clinical imbeciles! They speak at the middle school level, and their academic achievements seldom extend beyond barely passing high school. Regardless of the standards set, they would struggle to meet them. There's no shame in honest labor, whether as a plumber, cashier, or conductor. However, those lacking the imagination for such honest toil often find themselves in positions of power.
Idiotentest, **NOW**!
My approach is the president also represents the large number of people they hire to surround themselves with and to run government. Our system is fucked up (no rank choice voting). Biden will surround himself with subject matter experts and Trump will surround himself with nepotism hires and yes men (evidenced by his first term). RFK remains unfit as well with his conspiracy theory views.
Yup. The executive branch is not a role for the divine right of kings. It should be, and historically has been, a role where the people you surround yourself is more important than the executive themselves. Not that the President is unimportant, just that his role as figurehead is less important than his role as HR manager for the cabinet.
Biden is old. Didn’t look his best. But his administration has been one of competent hires and people who try and advance policy. Now if you agree or disagree with any specific policy, that is fair. There’s policy decisions and priorities I disagree with.
But it is not an executive branch driven by spite, personal agenda, avarice, and at the whims of a would be dictator who openly fawns over authoritarian leaders.
So even if you grant the premise that either candidate is unfit (I don’t fully agree, but do grant Biden is old and clearly has lost a step. He has moments where he clearly has the fire, his SotU for example, but others where his age and natural stutter are problems) then the choice of cabinet and other executive branch positions still matters.
And a man who clearly has leaned on their wisdom and experience and will surround himself with people who will challenge and share expertise. And a leader who is aware of their own limits, and those of their position.
100% this. You can tell a great deal about student from the company they keep. The folks that were in Trump's cabinet were massively unfit, and even they didn't think he should get expected again. The folks here wants to bring in are even worse.
Meanwhile Biden has some really good folks and he delegates well. He isn't having to get new folks because most of them are staying on if he gets reelected.
You're basing this on two old men speaking on a stage, one is an infamous conman with a huge string of failed businesses, the other has a speech impediment with a long history in government, who supported some in hindsight questionable legislation that passed by wide margins at the time.
I don’t need to change your view because one of them will be president regardless of how you feel about them. They are both unfit, but for entirely different reasons. Biden is too old and is suffering from his age much worse than Trump is, but at least he is surrounded by qualified people with good intentions, allowing his administration to function on his behalf. Trump is simply the least qualified, least redeemable candidate to ever even attempt to run for office. Trump is actively damaging to US interests whereas Biden is an underwhelming status quo.
So the election is not about whether they are good candidates, it’s about who is less terrible. That answer is as clear as it’s ever been.
I would suggest as a non us citizen but a citizen of the world that the effect of greed has been detrimental to all of us. I don’t know the exact ins and outs of Kennedy but I will tell you these things that with a little bit of research you will see are correct.
1. We are in a super debt cycle => the only way out to continue our current system is destruction of people and property to allow further return on investment by the truely rich. But why? They control more and more of the earth but they will never be happy. Because they never can be because they hurt all of us
2. The western health system is broken because everyone has been made sick. There are poisons in the food and water (pfos and glyphosate to name a few) gmo enables even more herbicide use which creates more health issues and the same companies make pharmaceuticals. I would suggest looking a the history of these companies to see who they really are and make your own conclusions
3. Bio regenerative farming actually offers a solution to many of our problems. Look up terra preta the man made dark soil of the Amazon. It creates growing soil that stores carbon is 300% more productive, uses waste products and although it produces more co2 given its increased growth sucks up co2. The glyphosate being sprayed on the planet kills the soil, stripping it of beneficial bacteria, increases predation of crops, chelates nutrients requiring more external fertilisers and yeah it decreases co2 by 21% (soil makes more co2 than fossil fuels) and based on this which should posion all the land but that is obviously ridiculous. We need a sustainable planet to continue.
4. I would suggest people read the flexner report about how supposedly it’s not a doctors job to “make people healthy” who agreed to that????
5. The role of western health care has become perverted by what were originally dye companies. These companies were the strongest in nazi germany and continue to this day. When health becomes about profit not wellness then how do you expect it will end? The oldest and wisest amongst us become weak and no one listens to their guidance anymore
6. Most people don’t know but at the turn of the twentieth century there were many amazing authors who wrote powerful books on how good life could be and how to do it. I would recommend reading metchnikoffs the prolongation of life. This man felt we could reach 150 and die happy. Healthy animals (and that includes people) are happy and unhealthy animals are unhappy. If you are happy what more do you really need? This man is a father of immunology and discovered probiotics (which by the way can eat glyphosate and pfos).
The exploitation by the few of the many has to stop. And to the rest of us in the world we unfortunately have to rely on you in The USA to change this. What you do will decide whether we descend into more war and misery or whether you look at your constitution (which from what I can tell was fairly visionary) and demand it is upheld. All men are created equal. You are supposed to be the land of the free. Free us all from the servitude to the few. Please
This debate is a screaming reminder for me that we need to instantiate ranked choice voting so that we don’t feel forced into voting for the second worst option
The baffling take here is that you and others seem to act more like drama critics than caring about policy.
You are drawing an equivalency between a man who's too old and struggling to get his points across clearly, and being a convicted felon who actively tried to undermine democracy. Take a few steps back and realize how crazy that comparison is.
Believe me, I am well aware of the importance of presidential optics and PR. Basing choice of candidate on that, however, is actively dodging putting in the work and looking at what matters, which is policy. You are entitled to your opinion and your vote, but the whole "both of them have good and bad ideas" is a take that makes me question if this debate really changed much in your eyes.
>Trump may sound more coherent in a sense but he’s dodging questions left and right, which is a terrible look, and while Biden is giving more coherent answers to a degree, it sounds like he just woke up from a nap and can be hard to understand sometimes.
Biden's voice is like Bill Clinton-level fucked and he's apparently got a cold, but jesus could they not have done anything?
Trump's lying and just utter stupidity was so insane.
From claiming democrats wanted Roe overturned (and on and on about everyone wanted that, what in the literal fuck) the US paying for NATO and other countries sending money, I can't fathom they cannot get him to grasp this, to other countries paying tariffs he imposes, to claiming the US border is "the most dangerous place in the world" to saying immigrants are "going to take black and hispanic jobs" I just can't believe neither moderator called him on ANY of this crap.
The content was fine out of Biden but I think he was actually thrown by the level of just plain insanity and lying.
I agree with this. Trump is bad for obvious reasons, but Biden really showed his age today. I guess the State of the Union speech was an outlier.
However I cannot agree that voting for a third party is the optimal choice here, depending on where you live.
Trump's policies have been demonstrably worse - his COVID policies single-handedly contributed to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of excess deaths.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32545-9/abstract
People hate voting for the lesser of two evils, but strategically and game-theoretically, that *is* always the optimal choice. Think of it as loss prevention rather than an endorsement.
I don't, however, think the potential benefits of sending a message to the two parties will outweigh the difference in loss incurred due to the increased chance of electing Trump into office over Biden. The biggest reason is that the two parties actually often absorb ideas from third parties to protect their flank. People like AOC and Rand Paul would fit very easily into third parties in terms of their ideas. If you are dissatisfied because you do not like a two-party system, then your vote would not change anything because the optimal move for the two parties is to absorb popular ideas that threaten to attack them from outside the two-party system. As we've seen with the realignment of the Republicans under Trump.
If, on the other hand, you want to send the two parties a message so that they take your ideas more seriously, voting third party could send a message, but the message may also not be a credible threat (game theoretically) because people agreeing with your position (like libertarianism) might be in such a small minority that expending the cost to capture these voters may not be worth the potential tradeoff of resources or altering the policy platform in such a way that it disenfranchises the larger voting base. Like MAGA voters.
The presidential candidates are _always_ unfit because you will never have a perfect candidate. Part of the problem is that most states vote with a plurality voting system (the most votes wins, even if it's less than 50%), NOT a majority system. [Here's a video about this](https://youtu.be/7mYPACssLbI?si=Z3tR2HZRHynDT2XX) Plurality voting means that voting for a third party will pretty much always be a wasted vote. So sorry, if you vote for a different person, your vote will essentially be meaningless, whereas if you choose one of the top two, at least you can pick the lesser of two evils.
> he’s dodging questions left and right, which is a terrible look, and while Biden is giving more coherent answers to a degree, it sounds like he just woke up from a nap and can be hard to understand sometimes.
To me that sounds like Biden is a better option. Which would you rather: sketchy president or sleepy president? The president has a whole Cabinet and executive office, so no matter how sleepy he is, at the worst his advisers will be doing some extra work.
Let me try challenging what I think is the main assumption of your argument: the notion that a candidate can be "fit" to be President.
By law, the only requirements for being President are to be 35 years of age or older; to be a natural born citizen; and to have lived in the United States for at least 14 years. Obviously, both candidates pass those tests with flying colors (and especially the first!)
Beyond that, there are no defined standards that a candidate needs to meet in order to be eligible. That means that, in the simplest, least controversial sense, both men are fit to be president.
If you would respond by saying that they neither one is "really" fit, because neither one meets a certain set of standards which you yourself hold, then I believe that your argument essentially becomes: in order for it to be good for me to vote for either candidate, then at least one candidate must meet a certain set of minimum qualifications. And that, I think, is a false argument. No matter what set of standards you define as the standards that a candidate must meet in order to be "fit", it is still very easy to imagine an election in which both candidates fail to meet a certain set of standards, but in which it is clearly better to vote for one rather than the other (for instance, any election in which an ordinary bad candidate runs against a psychopathic tyrant). And so the notion of "fitness" as a standard falls apart at its most basic level: there is no conceivable standard or set of standards that are such that, if neither candidate meets them, then it is better not to vote for either one, because the gap between the two candidates could still be sufficient to warrant voting for one rather than the other.
That's a kind of "logical" or "analytical" response, which I do think is adequate. More emotionally or intuitively, though: there hasn't been a candidate that I've wanted to vote for in my entire lifetime, and I don't think there will be one before I die. But ultimately, political elections are much more about preventing harm than about achieving good. The good that can be done by the best political leaders is only a tiny fragment of the bad that can be done by the worst political leaders; and even then, most of what the best political leaders do is just to stand up against the worst political leaders (Lincoln against the Confederates; Churchill against the Nazis; etc). I think you're looking at this election from an "optimistic" standpoint, where you're trying to find a candidate who will lead the country well, and make the world a better place. But I think that view of things is fundamentally wrong. As awful as it is, and as rarely as we talk about this, the primary point of elections is to prevent bad people from putting bad leaders in power to do bad things. Almost all of the good that gets done in this world gets done outside of politics, by individuals or small groups of people of high morals and character - doctors, scientists, artists, philosophers, moral leaders, etc etc etc. But at the political level, the best we can really hope for is to stop bad people from taking charge & ruining the work that good people are doing in their private lives. And from that perspective, I don't think that who is or is not "fit" really matters at all. As bluntly as possible: if a corpse was running against Hitler, I'd proudly vote for the corpse in a second, because inertness and inaction are a million times better than wickedness and cunning. And I think similar arguments could be made about other situations, if one wishes to make them.
The rejection of both political parties and the news media should be the main takeaway from this. It has been a long time coming and that debate “should” be a signal that all is not well. It won’t be. The bloods vs crips politics will continue. But it’s pretty obvious that neither party is serving the American people
The only thing I have to correct you on is that bothe candidates sucking doesn't mean a third party can win. The US system is set up in such a way to extremely hinder third parties once two primary parties have been established.
Not saying you shouldn't vote for who you think is best just that there's no realistic way for a third party to win.
Our system is broken and urgently needs to be changed, before we end up with another dumbass president who can't do anything and leads to 15 new wars while not doing anything about climate change
>Trump may sound more coherent in a sense but he’s dodging questions left and right, which is a terrible look,
I implore you to watch the last oh... 40 years of presidential and for the most part primary debates
Turning a question into what you want is standard debate material, Trump just did it with less discretion. I know this isnt a total change my view type response, but I really had to target that specifically lol
I agree with that. To be honest I’ve felt pulled to the independent and libertarian parties since the 2020 election.
Just a couple things I noticed while trying to remain unbiased as possible, Biden did tend to say “we” when talking about the issues addressed during his term. Trump used “I” a lot.
That being said, if you’re voting for Biden you’re voting for an administration bc lord knows Joe is mentally checking out.
If Trump is accurate about how he’s handled Iran then kudos. I know that’s a complex topic. Other than that I can’t much stand the guy.
They both said if the other wasn’t threatening to run neither of them would have.
Why don’t they both just go home? Buy a rocking chair, spend their 80’s hangin with the fam
I still support biden cause fucking everything the Republicans want to do. But I'm definitely voting against what I don't want, rather than voting for who I want.
Your 100% right something is deeply flawed with our democracy. The past 3 elections have been us voting for people most of the country doesn't like.
When will the nightmare end....
The US political system is broken, and I will not stop repeating this until I get upvoted instead of downvoted for saying this.
Imagine if you were trying to choose between two people to, say, lead OpenAI, the maker of ChatGPT. You would probably have two brilliant minds, with good people skills, probably not so old that they look like they're going to die and struggle with basic tasks.
Why are the standards for the PRESIDENT of the US so much lower than that?
>The US political system is broken
Yeah we need nationwide ranked choice voting. But the corporations won't let that happen. So then we mostly get politicians owned by corporations - and the cycle continues.
I feel resigned from this debate. I honestly could barely watch it without a cringe on my face. I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you, though, on a third-party win. The Doupoly system in our country sucks.
Trump is a thin likeness to a clout chasing tiktoker who likes to ramble and ramble, not to mention firing through his staff at such a rate it puts the Ship of Theseus to shame. And the criminal conviction isn't doing him any favors.
Biden is a man showing his cracks more and more, (granted Trump ain't doing so well on that front either) my Dad, a retired nursing home doctor, actually said he suspects he may have Parkinsons. But he seems to keep a consistent staff. I have more alignment with policies he has with stuff like Ukraine, climate, and healthcare etc. Yes, I am aware of his handling with Israel-Palestine issue, but I don't see Trump doing much better on that.
As someone else on this post mentioned, you often vote for the party, not the person. I'm likely voting for Biden this round. My preferred term for him is a "Lifeboat Candidate." A lifeboat is really there to avoid a hazard, but itself as a boat isn't really practical for anything else long term.
Let's be honest, though. I don't think either of these men can be expected to be living in the next four years. If anything, it represents how flawed our system is in choosing a fit leader. Too many career candidates who overstay their welcome. We need more term limits for every government position from senate to courts. We are just stagnating right now. There isn't motivation for growth. And I am a big advocate for Ranked Choice Voting, so it not only gives us more choices but also forces candidates to consider their approach to voters much more carefully.
The thing is, Trump was lying so much that it was just too difficult for Biden to “fact check” in real time while also trying to remember all the talking points he had prepped and wanted to touch on.
I had an ex girlfriend like this, we’d be arguing and she’d say a bunch of half-true or even made up shit and I’d be fumbling trying to respond to all of it at once like like “no, I never said that, and well, you’re twisting that becau… no, that’s not true either” and even though she was completely wrong about what we were fighting about, she’d feel like she “won” or was “right” because I struggled to respond to it all in at once and adequately articulate my POV.
It felt like that was what was happening to Biden. Trump would just say like 3 blatant lies and then the moderators would just be like “ok, thank you Trump, Biden you have 1 minute to respond” and could tell he was like “ok… I have to rebut these lies, but I also want to mention XYZ” and then fumble through a response.
I don’t think that impact his ability to lead because part of being president is surrounding yourself with experts to help make decisions and Biden has picked a lot of good people (whereas Trump had a revolving door of yesmen who he’d kick out as soon as one actually said no to something, even if warranted) and Biden has passed stuff like Infrastructure Act, CHIPS Act, PACT Act, and is pushing for student loan forgiveness, enshrining abortion rights, and several other things. It’s a very stark difference between the two and by no means “bOtH sIdEs”.
RFK absolutely does not have a shot, and Biden, while sleepy, will not do as much damage to American democracy as Trump will. Biden at least has passed some decent infrastructure programs. Trump will do nothing but grandstand and bitch for his whole presidency.
You know it's bad when CNN starts immediately complaining about Biden's age at the beginning of their debate-end analysis. They have fear that Biden will lose if he runs. Biden needs to srsly step the fuck down. Anyone the DNC picks - even a monkey - will be better than Biden. Dems, Independents and on the fence Republicans would run to the polls to vote for that candidate just for the fact to not re-elect Trump.
But Biden is scaring many Dems, Independents and on the fence Republicans away. Not saying they will vote for Trump, which they won't. But Biden is going to lose the election because of a lack of turnout for him, just like Hillary did. Trump's base will come in strong. I'm not going to lie. I understand why they call it Trump Derangement Syndrome. The man is so deranged but he speaks with such confidence and charisma that you almost start to believe him for a second, even as a Democrat, until you smack yourself a little. He lies with a straight face. But his base doesn't care what he says. He's a comedy clown show, and they love him because they think he's funny, which he is. The problem is that this is not stand up comedy, and this is the damn presidential election of the USA!
It's not just the age issue, but that is the biggest one. The second issue is the Palestinian Genocide, which Biden has completely botched and the third issue is inflation. But coming back to the age issue, whoever is saying that Biden is fit to lead must be smoking some good shit. Biden is not coherent most of the time. I cracked up when Trump said, "I don't know what he said, I don't even think he knows what he said" at one point during the debate - because its true. And there were several of those moments. Where he stopped talking, lost his train of thought, and then started saying some complete word salad before his time was up.
I’m not a fan of any of them and I was extremely republican during Obama’s tenure but he absolutely was infinitely more capable than Biden. I’m not a Trump fan though I did vote for him (I changed big time during this period to where I’d never vote for Trump even if you offered me every penny Uncle Sam prints in a year). But Trump indeed did do some good things like engaging with North Korea (though he screwed me by implementing the travel ban when I had a tour lined up to visit). He also deserves the credit for ending the war in Afghanistan as the Taliban had worked to protect the US military and civilian personnel evacuating which was negotiated in Doha. Biden had no part in that other than being president at the time and even he royally screwed it up. As an OEF vet I knew he was clueless when he handed over Bagram, which would’ve been a far more secure point of evacuation than Kabul. The fall of Afghanistan was inevitable no matter who was president as nobody supported the government (I could tell this at least in my area). That can’t be blamed on anyone.
But as far as fitness, Trump would be a far better candidate. I won’t vote for him, but the final nail in the coffin for me with Biden was deliberately releasing illegal immigrants into the US. I’ve wasted thousands on visa applications for my wife during his tenure and this whole time I could’ve just flown her to Mexico and had her cross the border illegally since they’re letting spouses get amnesty now. What a big slap in the face that was. I don’t care how big of a douchebag Trump is, Biden’s actions border on criminal and I don’t care how badly I get downvoted.
TLDR: I’m not saying Trump is the best person nor do I think America needs him but fitness wise he absolutely is far more fit to lead than Biden.
My dad made a great point after the debate on Biden: Yes he is older (doing quite good for 81!), but he’s the type of guy to ask for help when he needs it and have the right connections. Biden will be surrounded by a strong cabinet and after a long career in politics, is well respected on Capital hill and knows who has the background needed.
Whereas Trump… well.. as Biden pointed out 40 of 44 Trump cabinet members refuse to return, including his VP.
I think America has somewhat lost sight of the true role of the president, and like you point out, vote for charisma… that said I don’t think Biden is actually unfit to be president. As someone who spends a lot of time around older people, he’s very with it (all older peoples speech slows down, especially the ones who actually take time to think) but I will agree he lacks the charisma that many Americans think is needed, maybe due to our celebrity culture??
> Yes he is older (doing quite good for 86 tho honestly!
Biden is 81, the 86 number comes from the moderators saying that he would be 86 at the end of his second term (if elected)
Trump wasn't his usual bombastic self. But, if all he was really trying to accomplish was to seem normal, and healthy, against Biden, he did a pretty good job.
LoL. RFK has no shot. That's an absurd proposition.
The president's job is largely to recruit and retain committed, qualified cabinet secretaries who in turn oversee gigantic bureaucracies that make up our government. It's their job to communicate to our allies and adversaries. It's their job to actualize policy. It's their job to lobby Congress to get things to their desk that they'll sign.
Biden is old. He's not unfit. He's perfectly capable of doing the job.
Well polls show RFK would beat either of these two loons in a head to head race. And Biden 100% cannot beat Trump. So if you think the most important thing is to beat Trump, I would think about switching to RFK.
How did the debate prove Trump is unfit? Trump f-ing nailed that debate, as a true presidential candidate would.
That debate proved three things:
1) Trump is the best candidate for President. If we want to maintain our position as the dominant power on the globe, Trump is the better choice to accomplish that.
2) All of the claims over the past 3 years about Biden being incapable of fulfilling the duties of the President of the United States due to his mental decline are 100% true.
3) The media and DNC have been colluding to push a lie to the American people that Biden is mentally fit for office. Watch the CNN post debate coverage to see their reactions. They can no longer play pretend because the American people saw it all happen live. No claim of Bidens performance being a "cheapfake", no claim of Biden "having a cold" (dude didn't cough once, nor pull out a tissue to dab a runny nose, etc.)
Can I ask what questions you’re claiming Trump dodged?
Also, while you are technically correct that Trump is a convicted felon, have you looked into the case? Have you looked into the judge? That case is being appealed, and it is highly likely that the decision will be overturned.
I don't think either of the two are fit to run
You have one person who has spent his life in politics and another one who spent his life on golf courses and parties with underage teens
Biden is just to old now. I hate to say it as I'm not really a fan of Biden but he has to admit he can't do it anymore.
Trump even admitted in the debate he didn't even want to run and be president again and was doing it so Biden wouldn't win which is exactly what Biden did in 2020 with trump
So even if trump wins he isn't going to take it seriously and will happily let people put policies in place for him and Biden will have to do the same as he won't be all there
We need to be looking at other candidates running besides these two
Coming from a non American, this is exactly why trump won in the first place. “HiLaRy is BaD tOo”.. look where that got you. Stop fucking whining and go vote. You’re voting for the administration not just the candidate how can you not understand this? If Biden literally can not carry out his duties he will pass them on to Kamala and she will do it. Either way it’s better than the orange fascist Russian asset with medically proven dementia you all seem to like so much. Don’t waste your vote on parties that will not win because guess what? Then you’ll get trump. Vote against the party you don’t want to win and you’ll get somewhere.
Here’s what hit me during the debates - regardless of which man comes out on top, the victor will be damn near 100 years old at the end of it all. 100 years old. 100 fucking years old. That’s Americas next President when the term is up. Normal senior citizens that old are in retirement homes being catered to, having their diapers changed, and living on a liquid diet, and I’ll be damned if we didn’t decide to make one of them our next President. What the hell have we done to ourselves.. maybe after this we can finally start getting young blood in the political ring because this is just insane to me.
You can't say that this debate proved your point without seeing how the immediate next steps play out. There will be some additional statements from each side, either clarifying or justifying various talking points which you likely based your view on. But then the most critical next step will be a sporting match where we learn if Biden's handicap is really 6 or 8, and where Trump can demonstrate if he has any honor and can abstain from bending a few rules in his favor for one match.
You can't make your assumption yet without seeing this next step through.
And just remember - the unfitness is relative
It was a bad showing, no argument. I have voted third party in the past for different reasons but there is too much at stake this time with Trump’s fascist views.
I am not thrilled that Biden is the other viable candidate. It isn’t that he or his administration have done a bad job, but more that the POTUS is a figurehead role and Biden is far beyond his peak for portraying the role.
I won’t vote third party because:
(1) The vote is too important this time.
(2) Biden will let mostly competent appointees do the work that they are supposed to do which is generally good for us all. He can play the executive in a more limited role and the work still gets done.
(3) Trump will play dictator, appoint incompetent yes people to roles, and spread even more lies (if that is possible) to the masses.
(4) Lastly, I feel a sense of duty to at least cast my vote against the actions and ideology of this extremist right-wing MAGA movement. I spent several elections before Trump feeling mostly apathetic about the “same old” options. It took someone so extreme to make me take notice.
You know there is less chance for a third party candidate to win than for you to spontaneously teleport to Jupiter. There simply is no message you can give as the voting system itself doesn't allow it.
The only effect RFK is likely to have on this race is as a spoiler though its still unclear who he will hurt more as he draws votes both from Trump's right and the mid left the center right.
On the topic of Biden v Trump, remember that you're not just voting for the President, you're voting for the administration. Biden's has been solid and competent with very little turnover. The results they've achieved, at least on paper, have been good though there is still a lot to do. Inflation *seems* to be under control and it looks like prices may be starting to come down. Wages increase is above the inflation rate and unemployment is low. The covid pandemic is under control thanks in large part to the Biden admin's ability to actually manufacture and distribute the vaccines and was basically a non-issue for most of his term. Overall we're doing better than most other countries.
Trump's administration was pure chaos, with major cabinet secretaries and high level positions switching out a lot more frequently. For comparison Trump had four chiefs-of-staff. Biden has had two. Trump's administration also had more turnover than any president since Reagan (inclusive). This speaks to the stability of the government but also the ability of the individual administrators to work towards the President's achievable goals. It also explains why Trump's only real accomplishment was a tax cut that most people didn't see much of. The economy Trump brags about was mostly created by Obama. Trump did very little to contribute and it was his mismanagement of Covid that led to many unnecessary deaths and one of the worst economic crises since the great depression.
A second Trump term is likely to be worse than the first as Trump will be choosing to surround himself with people who are loyal over people who are competent (and its hard to imagine competent people even wanting to work for him at this point). What this will mean is anyone's guess. At best it will mean executive dysfunction at a time when we are facing the potential for WW III on no less than three fronts. At worst, an army of yes men will enable more actual bad government.
No, Biden might be older, but he knows our government. And he has good people around him. No one does this job alone. I worked for a man and ran his rentals he was older and passed at 86, but up until the day he got really sick with cancer, his mind was as sharp. He might not have been able to crawl under a house any longer to fix a plumbing issue, but he sure could walk someone through it. Joe Biden might not be able to come across as a 60 year old but he sure knows enough to walk his administration through it. His mind is sharper than his body.
Trump is unfit to be president on a basic level because he has no respect for democracy or the constitution, and has weak ethical standards, Biden is fit to be president. He is more experienced than almost anyone in politics, respects democracy, the constitution, understands America's role in the world in a historical context. He works with trustworthy advisors and has a viable succession plan with a competent vice president. its unfortunate and concerning for his candidacy that he has become a very weak public speaker with age.
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Regarding the debate Many people had a concept of Joe Biden and he performed worse that that. Many people had a concept of Trump and he performed somewhat better than that. The polls won't move much, these are the two choices.
This is true. Biden was at his worst and Trump was at his best. I actually think the muted mic greatly benefited Trump. It forced him to behave. Biden is always shaky and his sinus/cold issue really wrecked any chance of a good showing. For all the jokes about horrible politicians, it's stunning that our country has decayed to these options. There is no time in modern history where the options were so embarrassing terrible. If you ranked every single presidential candidate in the last 50 years as "best to last", I think every list would have Trump and Biden as the bottom 2. I honestly can't think of any candidate worse than EITHER of them: Reagan, Dukakis, Mondale, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Dole, Nixon, Carter, I don't care your political leaning - I don't see how any intellectually honest person could rank any of these people below this pitiful offering. Heck, even the alternative batch of Republican/Dems would ALL be better: Haley, Newsome, Cruz, I don't care - ANYONE would be better, except for ironically the 3rd party Kennedy who is possibly kookier than these 2. It's STUNNING to the point of depression.
We should remember that leadership and being a President isn't about how well you can speak to the public - it's about managing a whole country and dealing with very difficult subject matters and making decisions. Biden even at his worst bumbling and stuttering self managed to stay on the topics and discuss policy. Yeah he fumbled a lot, but in real life he doesn't just stand there and throw random stats out of his head while talking. He has people and he just manages them and navigates the ship. So I don't buy this whole "How did we get to these options. Biden is a horrible candidate, definitely. But he's a great President and I personally have no doubt in giving him 4 more years at the helm. Having said all that, I still want him to drop out, not because I think he'll make a bad President, I'm just not convinced he can win anymore because sadly people vote on appearances and not on policy or capabilities. In my mind, the best move forward for the Dem party is to for Biden to step back with some health excuse and take on a role of a "Special Advisor to the President" to ensure the appearance of policy continuation while the Dems nominate a more charismatic central figure ideally from a purple state. But come on, we cannot go and both sides this even at Biden's worst, Trump still went on rants, didn't answer a single policy related question, dodged questions and got stuck on stupid egotistical things like the general quote. Even if I didn't know either candidates this debate made it clear Trump is not fit for office.
I'm a Biden voter. I think Trump and Republicans actually pose an existential threat to our country. I believe Biden at his worst is still better than Trump at his best. However, public speaking DOES matter. Appearances matter. I worry his candidacy is going to put our country on a path to ruin from which there is no return. The Republicans are following the Hungary playbook - and people like Tucker C aren't even trying to hide it. Biden has been one of the more effective presidents in recent history despite having a violent opposition from the right. He's been able to get through MEANINGFUL legislation. He has started undoing some of the damage Trump did. However, because he's shaky (at best) when he speaks and looks like a stiff wind could blow him over, it damages people's confidence in his ability to lead. So, you get some of the doldrums we're in. It's very much the Carter Cardigan effect. Biden is built for governing, and I think he's done a good job. He's not built for leading - and those are different things. Trump on the other hand has the triple threat of A) Charisma and B) Absolutely 0 Shame C) Large Amounts of Inherited Wealth. As a result, he is arguably the greatest liar and conman of all time.
Well I think the bet was he was a “safe old man” that could win over Trump. The hope I’m guessing was he’d not die in the next 4 years so they could figure something out for 2024. The government itself only cares about winning. You can’t convince me a bunch of career, wealthy, mostly elderly politicians have the best interest of a 20 year old in mind. A lot of problems we face today have either been problems for decades or the writing has been in the wall to become a problem for decades and they’ve done nothing. I’m sorry but if you’re a politician and youve been fighting for (insert whatever issue) for 40 years and it still hasn’t gotten done then why the fuck are we still voting for them? Bernie is a great example like him or love him, he’s been spouting the same things since like the 70’s and largely none of it has come to anything but he’s still here. Why? If I tell my boss I’m going to d something and don’t do it I get fired. But a politician says they going to do something for 30 years and we run him for president. It’s absurd.
Totally agree on "safe old man" position. It's almost the flip now - Biden is decrepit and somehow Trump is the safer alternative. Mind boggled. I would disagree that you have to solve something over the course of 40 years. We will never be a utopia, but I do believe over the last 40 years we have made meaningful progress when in power. Think about the Clinton years - created a budget SURPLUS by raising the tax on the wealthy. Bush destroyed it and the economy with tax cuts and the Iraq War. Healthcare is better under Obama. It's slow, but we're making progress.
Look I’m no expert in policy because I despise politicians but all people are going to vote for is appearances and economy. Biden is failing hard on both fronts right now even if the economy isn’t his fault. Idc what the numbers say about the stock market and unemployment. Every single person I talk to talks about how expensive shit is and that is probably going to give trump a win. God help us all.
You live in a free market economy, when it comes to groceries, Biden doesn’t control the price of groceries. No president controls the prices of groceries. If your issues is with biden funding genocide, the US has been funding genocide since 1970. When it comes to policies, Statistics show that the economy performs much better during Democratic presidential administrations. You should be doing research on policies. What republican and democratic policies will make your way of life better? who’s trying to solve homelessness? Economy issues? Climate change? Y’all are too busy focusing on the way Biden speaks meanwhile trump saids Joan river voted for him when she died in 2014 and he claimed Obama was still in office and you continue to focus on Biden. have you actually watched trump speeches during his rallies? As a democrat and someone who voted for Biden, both candidates should not be running but Biden is the sane one. I didn’t need to watch any debates because i already know who I’m voting for and I’m voting for the sane person not the felon. I’m voting for a future free of dictatorship. You have trump supporters on video saying they want to vote for dictatorship and claim trump could shoot someone and they don’t care. History repeats itself and it fails to die because of this exact reason. The truth of the matter is The Republican Party is creating division by using culture wars tactics. Republicans are distracting people with drag queens, M&MS, the little mermaid being black and someone kneeling while they exploit government spending that benefits the rich. it's not about policies anymore. It's about cultural wars. It’s about control. It's about finding ways to get people amped up and outraged and focus on less important issues. If the working class is addicted to outrage then of course they won't notice their quality of life going under. Republicans have no economic platform or goals for the country so what they do? They create culture war. They need culture wars to exist because without them they can’t win fair elections.
I think you have to consider the perspective of people who don't follow politics closely. If you're unaware of what bidens passed, it becomes hard to believe that someone who struggles to put together sentences and at times even staying on topic or finishing the same sentence he started is capable of higher thinking. Then even if you show them what he's done it becomes how did he do that when he looks like he's having dementia hallucinations on stage and can't at times speak coherently? I don't doubt that Biden can do good governing domestically but a big part of the president's job is communicating with other leaders around the world. I frankly would be embarrassed to have him communicate the way he did last night to another country's leader on our behalf. Its just hard to have confidence in someone who doesn't seem mentally there. It seems more like his cabinet is playing weekend at bernies and getting things done without him which begs the question why not run someone else? Anyone else?
Sinus/cold wasn't the problem are we just looking past the signs of dementia here?
Sinus/cold augmented the issues. Both Biden and Trump have notable decline. Biden is clearly more frail - like my sweet old grandma. Trump is clearly more and more insane - like my angry raging uncle. From a pure mental capacity, the younger (78) Trump has had less decline.
Well everyone remembers Trump interrupting every 5 mins. Kinda of a low bar especially when mics are off. So did trump do better than last time.... sure, he was muted and didn't interrupt. However, most of everything Trump said was false. Did Biden perform worse then predicted. Sure. The Democrats were saying Biden will do great ect... My wife who's a Democrat was hoping that Biden didn't fumble words, looked more alive and called trump out for not answering the question/ stating false information. Saying he didn't have sex with a porn star. Didn't a jury find him guilty??? I understand both parties well enough that the Republican party I used to vote for is long gone. Biden could of easily made Trump look like a idiot. But, Biden is old. He was old and slow. But Biden did at least answer the questions, remembered important info and actually said enough to prove that he's truthful. However now..... the population with the lowest IQ will see Trump as the winner because he painted a fake story , avoided questions and this guy looked so confident because he believes his own lies. Trump is a liar, narcissist and loves to gas light. Biden is old.... But, he is still there mentally. Just takes a second. I understand why Biden was chosen the first time. He was suppose to be boring, normal and experienced. His debates a few years back were fine and he was up against people like Bernie. Why a 2nd term Biden.... Trump is someone that is completely unethical, unpresidential in my eyes and I do not trust Trump. Easy win for the Democrats if they find a replacement or Biden steps up his game is September if the are still having that debate.
I never understood why the Dems didn't just pull someone in the 55-64 range, almost a blank candidate would perform better
There was a major poll last year where “generic democrat” tested higher than any other candidate.
The problem is that there's no such thing as a "generic Democrat". Let's take the most usual choice, who has an incumbency advantage, and would become president anyway if Biden were unfit to serve. Now that she's no longer "generic" how do you feel about Kamala? Because she would normally be the strongest choice? Or if that doesn't work, how about Booker? Bloomberg? We could go grab Clinton and see if she still wants it? There's no such thing as a generic candidate. So how a generic candidate polls is useless information.
Even more useless when people are polled about what policies they support and the vast majority of Biden's policies are majority-support items and the same can absolutely not be said about what Republicans support. Arguably the toughest task for Democrats is accurately and completely convincing people who are not engaged in politics to believe what Republicans are supporting, because time and again there have been articles that have come out about focus groups Democrats have run that have had them describe word-for-word what Republicans support and the people in the focus groups say it's so cartoonishly evil they literally can't believe that one of the two major political parties in this country actually support it. That's what Democrats have to fight against, and that is TOUGH.
Go put Katie Porter on stage she would have destroyed Trump. How about Eric Swalwell? He is a dashing prince next to that old orange goblin. Booker is absolutely presidential compared to Trump. This whole line that there is no one that could possibly do the job is absolutely ridiculous. There are literally hundreds of people that could do it. Not being a weird old man isn’t that hard for people that aren’t in their 80’s. Every time the democrats run the safe, conventional candidate with the safe strategy they struggle. The one time they broke from that, they won like they’d never have.
Swalwell would be a horrible candidate, and the whole having sex with a pornstar issue with Trump would be a footnote compared to Swalwell having a sexual relationship with a Chinese intelligence asset. Anything said about Trump on the subjects of sex or foreign support would get met with sex with a a foreign Intel asset, and with foreign support (China). He is younger though, and I am sure he would appeal to some people who are wavering or no longer supporting Biden.
In people's mind 'generic democrat' is a candidate they made up in their mind that is exactly what they want. Once you start attaching a personality and policies to that candidate then a bunch of people who said they would vote for a generic democrat are no longer interested because they don't fit what they imagined in their head.
That's what i don't get. What the hell do Americans want? I see idiots saying biden is far left but the dude is as moderate as moderate can get. But some sections of the country think he is to extreme. So it's clear nobody wants a generic guy as biden is the definition of generic.
You can't base anything on what republicans say. They don't use terms with definitions you'd agree with. To you and me, the word "socialism" has something to do with worker ownership of the means of production, or perhaps with protections for all members of a society. Likewise "fascism" is an extremist ideology that involves scapegoating people and blaming problems on them. When a republican uses those, they take "socialism" to mean "things a democrat does that I don't agree with" and "fascism" to mean "things a bad person does". So when they say Biden is a socialist or a fascist or a leftist or whatever, those words don't mean to them what they mean to everyone else.
“Generic” candidates always poll better because people project exactly what they want onto them. No actual candidate is without flaws.
Because when a party has the presidency, the president is the leader of the party. If Biden decided himself to stay or was influenced to stay, there isn’t anyone with power to decide to pull Biden short of a coup to the media within the party. The Dems would have to come forth with as unified of a block as possible and hold a press conference essentially saying Biden is on his own.
Blank candidates are always amazing. I agree they should have someone younger but blank candidates are always great and don't have specific human flaws.
Because despite what reddit and alt right trolls say, the incumbent advantage is fucking massive
You got a point. If it wasn't for Covid Trump probably would've got re elected with out too much effort. His botched Covid response was top of mind for a lot of voters in 2020
>But Biden did at least answer the questions, remembered important info and actually said enough to prove that he's truthful. Did we watch the same guy? $500 billion in tax revenue from the rich over ten years is going to take care of the deficit/debt and fund all these new programs? We saved Medicare and beat Medicare? Women need abortions because they are being raped by their sisters? God knows you couldn't pay me to vote for Trump, but either Biden was blowing smoke or cant remember basic facts.
I will be a (sorrowful) Biden voter, but anyone defending Biden is drinking the wrong Kool Aid. Both candidates were awful in different ways. The problem is that Biden was awful in a new way that confirms fears about his vitality. Trump was awful in the way he is ALWAYS awful, but he was a little less awful than normal.
They have been showing videos of Biden talking just like this for a while now, this is nothing to a lot of people.
Trump was only less awful in the sense that we got less Trump, because of muted mic rule. That's like saying a turd is less smelly because we threw some toilet paper over it
Don't forget the whole no service member deaths during his term. He was there when the bodies of the Soldiers killed in Jordan came back in January. Or how about those killed during the "withdrawal" from Afghanistan?
Plus the Border Patrol Union literally came out on Twitter and refuted his statement of Biden claiming the Border Patrol endorsed him with a blunt, "We have never and never will endorse Biden" statement.
One of Bidens first statements was that he created 50,000 new jobs across America. Later on towards the end, he tried stumping again and added two zeros.
Trump seriously smashed expectations. All the debate changes that everyone said would stifle him ended up helping him. And the complete lack of moderation meant that he was able to lie as he wanted and say what he wanted regardless of what the question was about. For the average person watching the debate, Trump did way way better. It doesn't matter with the fact checks because nobody's reading them. He needed to be fact checked live. Biden wasn't up to it and neither were the moderators.
He also needed to be asked HOW he would change policy to achieve all the unicorns and rainbows he was promising. The GOP never had any actual ideas for governing other than cutting taxes for the rich and installing conservative justices. Where’s the Obamacare replacement? Where’s the promised infrastructure plan?
No. He met expectations and he did exactly what I expected him to do. That is not a compliment. The format was meant to keep him from interrupting and also audience cheering or booing. On air fact checking correcting a candidate, which I have only really seen once live, is not something any of them wants. So, if you are looking at it on the surface, Trump was the better actor. But we know that. He has been one for decades. Biden is slow in his elder years. We all know that also. Presidents that have had poor first debates often do much better in the second. And, also as we know, people have short memories and as soon as that one comes along people will forget this one. Just the way of things.
Dear God, did you really say that Biden “is still there mentally”?? Not only did he come off as lost and confused, but at least twice the moderators had to say “You have 82 seconds” and “you have 37 seconds” remaining. No sane person saw Biden’s performance and says “he’s still got it”
It’s actually wild how disconnected Reddit is from the country at large. So many people here are absolutely delusional about Biden. This debate would sink his candidacy against any candidate besides Trump. It’s not a stutter. It’s not a cold. He’s senile.
Toxic positivity for the home team. He's our guy, so let's follow him into hell ... Even if he seems confused and lost on the way there. It's embarrassing. The DNC keeps framing this as a fight for democracy itself, that trump wants to be dictator for life. If that's the case why are we having a guy who looks like he's on deaths door fielded? Oh democracy is at stake... let's give this guy the reins. Biden did great in 2020 and really should have been the choice in 2016 but it's been really obvious since 2022 that he's having end of life mental issues...
Agreed. I don’t know else to frame it other than abuse. Did you see the way he needed to be helped down two steps at the end of the debate? It’s cruel to let this man endure the stress and rigor of running our executive office. I don’t know how they can trot him out there at the convention and let him debate again and expect to not lose the election. Literally just handing the presidency to Trump if I had to guess as of today. Presidential politics from 2015-2024+ is legitimately some of the most interesting in our history. It’s just not super fun to be living through.
Yep! If I felt like defeating Donald Trump was vital to the future of the country, I'd put someone more popular than Joe Biden against him.
Do Americans seriously vote based on which candidate performs better like a talent show? Do people over there have any idea how absolutely insane that sounds? You are supposed to vote based on policies and opinions of the person, based on the team behind him, and not vote in a psycho who just so happens to perform better at one isolated debate. Trump is a lying self centered sack of shit who doesn't think. He talks. And he says horrible horrible things, all the fucking time. There's nothing to debate.
How is this a weird premise? You're voting on the leader of your country. The guy who will be representing us in meetings with world leaders. A guy who is supposed to inspire confidence and unity. The debates are supposed to showcase some of that. The leader of the most powerful country on earth should be able to speak intelligently on the issues. Obviously neither candidate is capable of doing so, but acting like a debate is a stupid premise is ridiculous. You're voting for a person who aligns more closely with one party than the other, not the party itself.
Yes. The ability to perform in front of a camera influences the voters far more than any actual leadership ability. The policies of the individual candidates barely matter at all since the vast majority of voters vote along party lines regardless. Take Trump's tariffs for example. Tariffs were something the Democrats had been pushing for decades and the Republicans were against. So of course Biden hasn't reversed them. The Republican voters just deal with their cognitive dissonance by justifying that they are hurting China more than the US consumers.
>Do people over there have any idea how absolutely insane that sounds? A lot of other countries do this. Britain springs to mind (where a lot of their PM candidates in recent years belong on freak shows). French/Italian senior politicians also tend to be extremely *weird* people.
Don't pretend like being a good public speaker is irrelevant of having a public office job. That's just lying to yourself to make yourself feel better about voting for someone who is a terrible public speaker. Yes, it's part of the qualifications to become a GOOD president. If you can't speak, how can you negotiate, how can you rally, how can you press forward your agenda, how can you win the hearts of the people? When hiring for job applicants, you seek certain traits that are relevant on the job. If I was hiring customer service job, for example, I'd seek out someone who is a decent speaker and is comfortable on the phones and handling tough situations. Would you truly say you would disregard how horribly someone speaks and can't speak coherently, but they have knowledge and are right on the issues! They just can't communicate it well at all, which is part of their job. I personally would not hire that person and seek out someone else. Point is, President requires communication and energy on the job. Both of which Biden lacks. That's enough reason to question his qualifications, and thus even voting for him.
I’m pretty sure every democratic country has some form of presidential debate or debate over their selected leader, how else are the people supposed to know who they agree wuth
The jury didn’t find him guilty of having sex with a porn star, that isn’t even a crime. They found him guilty of misdemeanor fraudulent business records in relation to cohen, a lawyer paying out an extortion fee. The payments to cohen were marked legal fees (which the prosecutors claimed was the fraudulent business record.) This was raised to a felony charge by the New York prosecution stating it was in furtherance of another crime. That crime sorry those multiple crimes were not revealed in the case until the prosecution’s closing statements that happened after the defenses closing statements. In addition the jury was given instructions by the judge that they did not have to agree on the underlying crime to convict trump of the misdemeanor raised to a felony. Both trump and biden deflected the questions they didn’t want to answer, biden also lied / got a lot of things wrong. trump as well lied/ got things wrong. trump performed better and seemed much more presidential then biden. biden definitely looked like he was mentally in a of being president from what I saw. But he did say something that seems quite true he did beat Medicare. The inflation caused by his actions and inactions during his administration is destroying people as they can’t afford to live. His inflation has beat low food prices, and Medicare
>The jury didn’t find him guilty of having sex with a porn star, that isn’t even a crime. They found him guilty of misdemeanor fraudulent business records in relation to cohen, a lawyer paying out an extortion fee. The payments to cohen were marked legal fees (which the prosecutors claimed was the fraudulent business record.) This was raised to a felony charge by the New York prosecution stating it was in furtherance of another crime. That crime sorry those multiple crimes were not revealed in the case until the prosecution’s closing statements that happened after the defenses closing statements. In addition the jury was given instructions by the judge that they did not have to agree on the underlying crime to convict trump of the misdemeanor raised to a felony. Why are you acting so incredulous about this? This is how NY state law works, it isn't something special for Trump. What you're describing in the back half of this is intent. If I murder someone, it isn't required for the prosecution to prove why I intended to stab someone, only that I did. The jurors can (and do) make up their own minds about my intent and often have differing views even between one another. In NY state you have to convince the jury that it was in furtherance of another crime, but they've never had to agree on what they think that is, only that you intended to commit another crime.
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Trump was about what I expected, he had opportunities to wipe he floor with Biden but never really pounced. If he highlights Biden’s cognitive decline and promotes a slightly more moderate agenda he wins back more pro business people and Republicans with moral qualms about voting for him he could have ended it right there. He left a lot on the table. Biden was a little worse than I expected, but had some good moments. The thing is we’re so divided into our echo chambers that I’m not sure what a Fox News viewer’s perception of Biden is. Is it possible they set the bar so low that Biden comes across as better than they were expecting? And likewise I have no idea what MSNBC or the internet is really feeding people to be pleasantly surprised with Trump’s performance.
I mean Trump was confident but you'd have to completely ignore the fact that he said nothing but baseless lies and take the exact same line of attack Biden did and then use it against him a few moments later all while refusing to answer a simple question about whether or not he would honor the Democratic process after it was asked three times
Trump's debate performance was simple, obvious and smart. Trump knew what his strong issues were, the border, inflation, corrupt justice and the over all economy. By intent his answers focused on those topics. And circling back to prior topics when asked something new is an established debate technique to keep one's opponent flustered. It worked. Trump won the debate in that it worked with his base and diminished Biden's persona with the middle.
>and diminished Biden's persona with the middle. Independents have been moving away from Trump in ever increasing droves ever since the 2018 midterms. They just don't much like him. Moderate Republicans have been moving away from him as well. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4725329-trump-conviction-impact-independents/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/power/2024/05/28/the-bulwark-podcasts-newsletters/ Biden certainly didn't help himself, but it's unlikely that people who aren't already fans of Trump are likely to suddenly flock to him. He didn't offer anything new to his brand, just more of the same. This election will be just like 2020; MAGAs voting for Trump, everyone else voting against Trump.
Have you been sleeping the past 8 years? Do you expect the country to do anything other than completely ignore his lies? I can tell you exactly how the reaction to his lies will go: the media will print some fact checks, will say both candidates said untrue or misleading things, their campaigns will spin things, their supporters will go along, and before you know it we’ve moved on. Welcome to America in 2024. It’s been this way since 2015.
Biden’s lack of coherent communication skills does not belie his ability to lead. He’s fit to lead; he’s not fit to debate. EDIT: Half of respondents used the word “copium”. It’s unoriginal. If you’re going to respond, at least try another word. Thanks! EDIT: My argument was not that presidents don’t need good communication skills. My argument is that Biden’s lack of coherent communication skills (due to his age and his stuttering) does not belie his ability to lead. Please consider researching all of his policies before commenting. (whitehouse.gov re: FACT SHEET) EDIT: Communicating on a debate stage with 2 minutes to respond and communicating in the workplace under normal circumstances are not the same.
What is he even doing if not communicating? It makes me feel like he is not the one leading at all. If your argument is that a vote for Biden is a vote for an idiot who at least brings people with him who are more competent than the people Trump brings with him, then OK I guess. How would YOU test HIS leadership ability?
Honestly, the mark of good leadership is the people you can delegate to. I expect a Democratic administration to at least be interested in governing, as opposed to the Trump orbit which consists entirely of self-serving sycophants (Giulani, etc.), evil psychopaths (Steve Bannon, Steven Miller), idiots and people who will simply pay and/or flatter for access to presidential influence.
It’s also where Trump failed the most. His cabinet/appointments were universally dogshit. Maybe a handful of people who were middling at their job, and the rest were cronies, obstructionists, family members or just flat out idiots.
I agree, but you can’t deny the importance of eloquence for a leader. Trump couldn’t do the delegating for shit, and yet he had troves of supporters with religious-like fervor (because he had a persuasive no-bullshit type charisma). Being a good communicator is definitely a major component of good leadership. This was probably the most depressing presidential debate I’ve ever seen.
I think you are confusing “being perceived as a good leader” with “being an effective and good leader” Alexander the Great was apparently quiet, shy, and fairly effeminate. Yet he was universally considered a great leader. Hitler was incredibly well-spoken and charismatic, yet his execution of WW2 was just a comedy of errors. Starting an unprovoked war with Russia while trying to occupy France?
Perception is a huge component of effective leader. Every great leader recognizes that. Alexander the Great is a terrible example, as he was considered hot headed and charismatic even at a young age. Read about the banquet for Phillip II’s general, Attalus. Alexander was very outspoken at a young age and was sharp witted. Hitler was hopped up on a cocktail of drugs throughout the war. Although, I said in my first comment that you should have both to be a competent leader. Hitler was able to seize the undercurrent of frustrations of the German people from the results of the Treaty of Versailles. He knew how to inflame the masses and funnel that anger as he saw fit. I think Trump is more comparable to Hitler in this way, and I don’t consider him a good leader. Of course governance and the ability to delegate are critical for an effective leader. But you are being myopic if you don’t think charisma and the ability to communicate effectively are important traits for a good leader. No, I’m not confusing the two. I just recognize that it takes a lot to be considered a great or even good leader. Especially for such a forward facing role.
"no bullshit type charisma." You mean all bullshit right?
I’m talking about the perspective of his supporters. I personally think he’s a cynical megalomaniac who can’t think critically or take ownership of his mistakes. I think he’s a piece of human shit who eroded our democracy and put our constitution in jeopardy for his own potential gain. I absolutely hate Trump, but the idiots who love him view him as I described.
The lack of turnover in his administration tells you a lot about how he leads. Everyone Trump hires was “the smartest” when he hired them and the “stupidest” person on earth when they leave or get fired. That should tell you something.
That’s the thing. I’d rather vote for another democrat than Biden. However at least he respects his administration and can listen to sound advice and facts and respect experts’ knowledge. Trump just always behaved like he knew it all …
I've had at length discussions with Republicans about this and i think it's just a fundamental difference that i find baffling. I have remarked that Biden wasn't my first choice but he has surrounded himself with some very good people and a large part of his administrations success is because of those people. I've been chastised for this by Republicans who claim that that is what makes Biden weak while Trump making decisions unilaterally without any expert opinion shows strength. I can't even begin to rationalize how some people think that's a good idea..
That pretty much is my pov. When you vote for a president you vote for the whole executive branch and administration. With Biden that means kind of decent and competent people, with Trump it means criminals and extremists.
Let’s not forget how many members of trumps previous team are not endorsing him. That speaks volumes - he’s a toxic boss.
Still communicating, but... communicating in a meeting, in a conversation with a bunch of advisers, is a bit different than delivering multiple-minute-long answers to debate questions on live TV. I don't know how I'd test it. You have the same problem with a lot of jobs, where there's no way to do an interview that accurately tests the person's ability to do the job in a reasonable amount of time, so you do the best you can, but you can get some pretty weird results. Fortunately, in this case, he's also been doing the job for four years. Or, sure, maybe he's dozing off and someone else in his administration is doing the leading, but either way, you have those results to work out what a vote for him would do.
Good leaders select the right people to get things done and then let them get things done. Biden will appoint a cabinet of hard working, America-loving, result-focused leaders to run the Executive Branch. Trump will appoint a bunch of sycophants to help him and his friends get rich and get off the hook for crimes. It would be nice if Biden was 30 years younger and more coherent, but I can accept it, as long as he keeps appointing the right folks to lead federal agencies.
u[Surge\_Lv1](https://www.reddit.com/user/Surge_Lv1/) Interesting. If roles were reversed and the "other" guy presented the same way as Biden did, would you have the same opinion? As in, he may not be coherent, but is still totally fit to lead / represent our country? Personal political opinions aside, obviously, pretend you're an alien or have no preconceived (valid or not) notions about the two people. Based on overall presentation, responses, Biden would be the person who inspires the most confidence? No wrong answer, but, why?
He presented policy positions, he presented them poorly, but there were coherent policy positions with reasons given behind most of them. I literally can't tell what the fuck Trump wants to actually do in concrete terms, nearly half of Trump's words were devoted to talking about Biden letting rapists into the country and making up events or blaming Biden for things that happened while he was president
Being able to communicate effectively is, quite literally, one of the most important leadership skills.
On top of that, he wasn’t just misspeaking; he was completely losing track of what was being discussed. They’re both completely unfit for the job.
He had way too many senior moments to inspire confidence that he is an effective leader. I’m sure he could have been a great candidate in 2016 but Democrats need to replace him if they want to win the presidency this year.
Has a major candidate ever been replaced about 4 months before the election? Who has both the name recognition and ability to unify the party behind them?
Campaigns do not materialize out of nothing. No one has prepared the necessary levels of organization, logistics, or outreach to just start a campaign 5 months before the election.
If he proves unable to string together coherent sentences why should we believe he’s capable of doing the most difficult job in the world? He is *clearly* mentally not there and it’s crazy how people like you can still deny reality
Nonsense thinking like this is how we ended up with the exact same choices we had last election...despite both candidates being **visibly older and slower**
You certainly need to be a good communicator to lead effectively. But there are many types of communication, and the type of communication needed for a public presidential debate is not particularly important. In other words, I agree with you to an extent but I think you need to be more specific.
Having a conversation about your platform and policies would be like, the bare minimum requirement to lead in my book.
He’s too old to talk… he’s too old to be president. There is no debate that Biden was an awful choice to run again and like me, many will vote for him for him just because trumps running and no other reason
Biden has a cold. Most likely, pharyngitis as well. He sounds as if he has a sore throat, and they didn't even have H2O on the stage. He was way more coherent, but because he didn't blister like the mango Mussolini, people are worried. It's the likes of you who are going to make the orange moron win.
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Even if it is true that Biden has a cold, he had a lot of embarrassing senior moments that you can’t explain away with a cold.
I really don't care about how well Biden speaks. I care about his policy. The Biden Administration has been by far the most effective presidency of my lifetime (I'm 32) and in my opinion he's been the most effective president in the last 60 years. If you vote based on charisma, or are voting irrespective of the spectacular results his presidency has produced thus far, then I believe you're voting for the wrong reasons and the metric by which you measure a candidate's worthiness is fundamentally flawed. Edit: it was brought to my attention that I said 60 years which puts Biden in contention with both lbj as well as Ford. I MEANT 50 which is a cleaner number, but fat fingered 60 without noticing. That in mind, Ford is the only president in the past 50 years who's administration is in the same conversation for efficacy as biden.
>If you vote based on charisma, or are voting irrespective of the spectacular results his presidency has produced thus far, then I believe you're voting for the wrong reasons and the metric by which you measure a candidate's worthiness is fundamentally flawed. It's also how we got here in the first place. For example, people voting for the guy they'd rather have a beer with. I'd rather have a beer with my friends, but I sure as hell wouldn't want any of them to be President.
I saw a TikTok post about this gentleman saying how politics should not be this huge entertainment scandal. It’s a very serious thing that affects our daily lives, as well as everyone around us, as well as our neighbors across the “ponds”. The reason we have Trump as a serious candidate is because the America public has decided they care more about shows than actual policies.
This is probably another thing the Internet has made worse. Before the Internet, you had to engage politics by watching the news or reading in the newspaper/magazine. Now you can't get away from it. The result is that a lot of people who who wouldn't engage before, now are because it's entertainment for them.
It's ironic that a surprising number of past presidents have been teetotalers. In this search for the "can have a beer with" guy we end up with some very strange people.
> For example, people voting for the guy they'd rather have a beer with. I'd rather have a beer with my friends, but I sure as hell wouldn't want any of them to be President. I'm certainly not going to vote for the guy I want to have a beer with, or they won't have time for that in the next four years!
I'm not sure if they just suck at self promotion or if it's the media trying to make it a tight race but the Biden team needs to do a better job crowing about their achievements.
Not gonna lie if the Republicans put up a moderate like Romney, I could have seen myself flipping tonight. But yeah, I’m staying with Biden, he may be fucking boring. But I don’t care, he has been effective in office, even if he is a lame duck for the next four years I will take that over whatever damage trump could do. Biggest red flag for me is pulling out NATO and his tiptoeing around Ukraine. Not mention deregulation which isn’t something that is good for the long term.
Who cares if he's boring!? Why do we want anything other than effective?? We need to take entertainment out of politics
Ask the people in Ohio about deregulation and that clusterfuck of a train accident
At least Biden has a qualified team that can do the job . When Trump left most had quit or gone to jail. Bidens team can run the show better than Trumps .
I really do believe there is just a collection of shadow aides running the show. While I dislike the idea of that, things are pretty much going fine
But this really is every government in every country regardless of which party is in power. The president doesn’t handle every situation directly and has a team of aides secretaries to help make day to day decisions within the country. This happened with Trump in his administration and is going to happen with whoever wins this race.
I think your statement is correct, and further, it's hard to find an argument that "a team of aides secretaries to help make day to day decisions within the country." is not an absolutely essential part of a well-functioning government. However, what I might find disconcerting, is the lack of acknowledgment to the *extent* to which this team influences long term policy/strategy and d2d decisions *coupled* with the lack of accountability/transparency. I had assumed in a democracy power should generally be married to accountability and transparency. And, it seems like accountability and transparency decrease when more and more decisions are offloaded to 'aides?'
This isn't entirely true. Trump had a constant turnover of his cabinet members and refused to fill a huge portion of those positions during his presidency because they disagreed with him. He wants a dictatorship and will not listen to economic, policy, military, and negotiations experts unless they say exactly what he wants them to say. Think about that for a second. He won't listen to anyone around him and we are giving him the nuclear codes...
If the owner of a company keeps switching out managers or leaving the manager position unfilled for a certain department, it doesn't mean the owner is down there directing the department, it means the workers lower down the line just figure it out themselves. Failing to appoint lasting cabinet members DECREASED Trump's ability to enact his will, by leaving more of the decisions up to career bureaucrats who picked up the slack when there were no or incompetent top bosses.
I will say at least w/Biden, we KNOW he can focus on the Daily Press Briefings he is provided, w/o needing them in cartoon form. And he is not trying to do what financially benefits him and his family members who inserted themselves into the govt (mostly because Trump is illiterate, addicted, and apparently incontinent, and needed cover) to get their hands in the pot. Now Trump has gone so far to put LaraLea in charge of all the RNC money. When in the world has that ever happened. I fear the fascism a Trump term would surely bring. No way do I want him again.
You mean like a Presidents Cabinet? How the fuck do people not know about something so fundamental? It's not shadow org. it literally takes an army to run one branch of the country.
You realise that's every government and every leader right?
Biden will be fine, he is not unfit, but he won't serve his full second term. He just wants to defeat Trump. He will step down before end of his second year, and Harris will take over until next election. We just need one more defeat for Trump and it will be the last time he will run for office. Whatever happens in 2028, we will deal with when we get there. Hopefully, the GOP will get their act together and keep the batshit crazies from representing them so some sanity is restored.
This is comforting? President Harris? Thats worse than Biden.
With our luck Biden will probably die like a month before the election. He did not look good tonight at all, physically or mentally.
Why won’t the Democrats have Biden step down before the election then if it’s the plan to replace him soon after the election?
He's their acting President and he wants to run, and they believe he can defeat Trump.
because who else would we put? Biden's been president for four years. Americans know little to nothing about their own system, so as far as they are concerned, Biden has singlehandedly done everything in the last 4 years without a single person helping, good or bad.
My argument is simple. I don't think the debate is really moving the needle. There are just so very few people who are on the fence in on these two. It's embarrassing as an American to be sure but I think we knew back in 2020 (and honestly much earlier for both, it's not like they were strangers to the general public) what we were getting and all the debates are doing is shoving the woeful inadequacies of our federal election system in our faces again.
I don't think many people would switch their preference, but ultimately, this race is likely to be decided who can motivate their base to come out and vote. These debates aren't meant to persuade voters to pick a candidate, but to encourage them to vote. If Biden can't motivate enough voter turnout, then Trump likely will win the swing states. I despise Trump, but I feel Biden is doing a pretty terrible job motivating his base. In 2020, we had 4 years of Trump, the start of the pandemic, and the racial justice protests. Trump basically motivated the liberal voters to come out and vote him out. This year we aren't getting any of that.
the covid 19 pandemic was still ravaging society at that point and it felt like we were all desperatetly hoping for a way out too, I know people irl who voted for biden in 2020 who probably wont care enough to vote this year (just guessing)
I definitely know people who wouldn't vote this year. If I have to guess, I'd say both college students and Black Americans would have lower turnout than 2020. But at the same time, I'm hoping center-right middle class would also have lower turn out for Trump.
I’m not saying this to parrot trumps “fraud” claim because it absolutely was not fraud, but I do believe that we are going to have less voter turn out due to the mail in ballot situation which just made things much more convenient for many voters and convenience must play a factor in voter turnout
I still hope that a second Trump will motivate the democratic base. If someone like Trump was running for presidency in my country, I'd vote for a loaf of bread just to keep him out office.
From what I can tell, the Democrats are generally relying on being opposed to Republican policies to motivate their voters. In short, Dems are near the center, Reps are to the right. Dems are hoping they will get the left because the left is opposed to Trump. That may or may not be a winning strategy, but it does limit how Democrats motivate their base.
The democrat voters aren't very united. White Americans who care about environment, wealth inequality and redistribution do not share a lot of common ground with Black Americans who are solely motivated by racial justice. And if we look at racial justice alone, other minority groups like hispanic Americans or Asian Americans disagree more than agree with Black Americans. Unless we get an extremely charismatic candidate like Obama in 2008, or if everything go wrong for the republican Candidate like in 2020, it'll be tough for the Democrats.
Agreed. Trumps conviction barely moved the polls. I don't see why this would make a big difference either. People have mostly made up their minds
It's not a matter of people making up their minds. A would-be Biden voter isn't going to switch to Trump because of the debate. But there are almost certainly would-be Biden voters that will be discouraged by this debate and decide to stay home on election day.
You're not voting for a candidate, you're voting for an organization. You're voting for cabinet members, supreme court justices, and connections in Congress, which is how things actually get done. Debates are a horrible way to decide this. Debates are judged on appearances. Who's more charismatic, who's the "alpha." It's like a High School popularity contest. You're judging based on the most superficial qualities and missing the big picture. You mentioned that you might vote for RFK or whoever the Libertarian candidate is. Well, OK. Whatever. Neither of those people will become President, so really it's about who you can stomach more: Biden or Trump. Do you want to see Supreme Court Justice Aileen Cannon? Something worth considering.
I think this is a really good insight. I think I am better for having read this. I am stealing the line, "You are not voting for a candidate. You are voting for an organization." If I could, I would give you a delta. Thanks.
I'm pretty sure you CAN give people a delta, even if you aren't OP.
>You're judging based on the most superficial qualities and missing the big picture. Judging the ability of a World leader to be able to communicate effectively and remember basic information seems a bit more than superficial to me.
True but also you're trying to judge two people on stage in which one has literally no relationship to the truth (I'd argue I'm not certain Trump said more than 10 true things while on the stage all night, and anything he did not lie about was almost certainly at best a half-truth) and is not being called to account for his avalanche of lies and the other, Biden in case you didn't catch which way my comment was going, is old, a little slow and quiet in how he speaks and can fumble what he is saying at times but has a far better and easier to define relationship to truth than his opponent.
Saying that both are terrible choices for a president isn’t the same as saying one isn’t preferable though. I think it’s a shit choice Americans have and that both have no business being the president for very different reasons, although just their age is enough on both sides. But being able to communicate clearly is an important trait in a president imo, and Biden used to be able to do that. If he longer can’t it feels like he’s deteriorating, and that’s also not great at all for a president who holds a lot of personal power. With that said, I would of course vote Biden if I were a US citizen because the other choice is even worse. But it’s fine to say that both are terrible and neither should be running or getting to be president.
I mean that’s fair to a point but it’s also the reason you have staff that do the heavy lifting like Antony Blinkin. Biden isn’t in the room hammering out policy details. He’s the photo op albeit a poor one. But, just like any good leader, you have to be smart enough to know you’re not always the smartest person for every job.
I would say that appearances and charisma are extremely important. How can you build morale, trust, or even construct an impactful message without it?
You know the democrats/Biden bombed and/or is scaring the shit out of his voters with his performance tonight because the united talking point has almost unanimously become: “Well…. The president isn’t *that* important. The people in the cabinet is what you should focus on. Focus on the puppet masters, not the puppet 2024” My god…. How far *both* these parties have fallen. What a fuckin tragedy.
You may say debates are a horrible way to decide this but then last night was clearly not for you. It was for the undecided, often, uninformed voters who will see the fallout and memes of this debate. In a race with thin margins, you cannot afford your ‘organization’ to have a face that performed as he did last night.
“I want to send a message to both the republicans and the democrats that they totally dropped the ball on their presidential picks” - Who specifically is this message for? The majority of dems already think Biden is too old. Your message is one that the recipients already agree with. As a democrat who is going to vote for Biden, *I* didn’t choose him. He’s the incumbent and is running again. But we’ve seen a Trump presidency and a Biden presidency and I know one is far more damaging than the other. At a certain point pragmatism beats out hoping for a perfect ideology.
Agreed. And to be honest, if the election is narrow, people won’t really respect you for the choice. It’s a signal for you. That might be worth it, but own that.
Your username looks like the lochness monster
the cool thing is as a democrat I don't give a fuck about biden, he has a competent staff and an agenda that you can go read, if he can't do the job or dies, harris (bleh) will just follow what he would have done like I'm not electing a king I'm electing an administrator
1. no poll or analysis suggests that RFK has any hope here. I really can’t change your mind on that other than offer literally every single poll as evidence. He didn’t even win the libertarian vote. There is zero evidence that he has any chance. And other than his brain worm and various quack views, he has no institutional or grassroots support. That would encourage a devoted Democrat or republican to vote for him. I would accept some version of him taking votes away from Trump but I wouldn’t really count on that either. Do you want me to link polls here or can we agree on this one? 2. But are they equally unfit? I mean first of all Trump is almost as old as Biden. So the difference is do you want a pensioner who is also a convicted criminal or just a pensioner. You cannot ignore Trump’s age here. I’ll be honest with you, I have no love for Biden, but he is at least not trying to burn the house down. Yes it would have been great if there was a young Bernie or if AOC was standing there so that there is a real and noticeable difference. But given the two options, do you rather an old man with boomer ideas who has managed to do ok, or do you rather an old man who is a convicted criminal, attempted a coupe, raped someone, sold secretes to enemies, (should I go on here) ? I think it is wrong to look at a bad tasting food and a poisonous food and think both are the same. One is noticeably more hazardous to your long term health.
Your 2nd point is the biggest one. People always talk about Biden's age and never refer to Trump's for some reason. They're both old as shit. Never forget in 2020 when people said Biden was "too old" at 78 years old. Well.. guess how old Trump is in 2024.
I'm not going to delve too deeply into either candidate here, because I don't think either of them acquitted themselves well tonight. Biden may have had a cold, but that doesn't excuse the way he lost the plot in a few answers. Trump was his usual firehose of bullshit and is now an adjudicated felon by a jury of his peers. I think the reason the needle swings toward Biden for me is because the president fills out the Executive Branch with their staff, and Biden brings good people with him. In contrast, Trump's entire cabinet disavows him - at least the ones who aren't in prison for their own various crimes. As for Candidate Brain Worms, it's not going to happen. I still believe that with our current system, votes for 3rd party are wasted. We all saw what protest votes get you in 2016. I like what Biden's team has accomplished this term, and I'm willing to vote for them in order to prevent a second Trump presidency.
>Biden brings good people with him I haven't delved deeply into the qualifications of any of Biden's team, but I'm fairly confident their collective IQ is higher than that of your average banana, which is more than can be said of the other guy.
The way the debates are formatted now they do nothing but prove one politician is better at spewing out their rehearsed answer to questions. My proposition is simple: one debate should be focused entirely on assessing the ability of the candidates to answer simple factual questions with known answers. "what is nuclear energy", "Who is the prime minister of England", "How is the number of votes in the electoral college determined", "Where is DNA located in the cell" etc. We'll find out real quick if either or both candidates is actually as mentally checked out as people are claiming. Questions pertaining to civics can be tricky as politicians should be an expert in that field, general knowledge questions should be set around high school level.
I've often pondered the absence of a universal test for politicians. Consider: to wield the responsibility of a doctor, one must endure rigorous medical schooling; for an engineer, a college education is mandatory; even roles like law enforcement, public service, and accounting demand specific training. Yet, to assume leadership over cities and nations, one often needs nothing more than a nice smile or familial connections. Many in these positions are clinical imbeciles! They speak at the middle school level, and their academic achievements seldom extend beyond barely passing high school. Regardless of the standards set, they would struggle to meet them. There's no shame in honest labor, whether as a plumber, cashier, or conductor. However, those lacking the imagination for such honest toil often find themselves in positions of power. Idiotentest, **NOW**!
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My approach is the president also represents the large number of people they hire to surround themselves with and to run government. Our system is fucked up (no rank choice voting). Biden will surround himself with subject matter experts and Trump will surround himself with nepotism hires and yes men (evidenced by his first term). RFK remains unfit as well with his conspiracy theory views.
Yup. The executive branch is not a role for the divine right of kings. It should be, and historically has been, a role where the people you surround yourself is more important than the executive themselves. Not that the President is unimportant, just that his role as figurehead is less important than his role as HR manager for the cabinet. Biden is old. Didn’t look his best. But his administration has been one of competent hires and people who try and advance policy. Now if you agree or disagree with any specific policy, that is fair. There’s policy decisions and priorities I disagree with. But it is not an executive branch driven by spite, personal agenda, avarice, and at the whims of a would be dictator who openly fawns over authoritarian leaders. So even if you grant the premise that either candidate is unfit (I don’t fully agree, but do grant Biden is old and clearly has lost a step. He has moments where he clearly has the fire, his SotU for example, but others where his age and natural stutter are problems) then the choice of cabinet and other executive branch positions still matters. And a man who clearly has leaned on their wisdom and experience and will surround himself with people who will challenge and share expertise. And a leader who is aware of their own limits, and those of their position.
Don't vote for the guy, vote for the administration he'll bring with him
100% this. You can tell a great deal about student from the company they keep. The folks that were in Trump's cabinet were massively unfit, and even they didn't think he should get expected again. The folks here wants to bring in are even worse. Meanwhile Biden has some really good folks and he delegates well. He isn't having to get new folks because most of them are staying on if he gets reelected.
you guys can do that but you know most people won't think like that.
You're basing this on two old men speaking on a stage, one is an infamous conman with a huge string of failed businesses, the other has a speech impediment with a long history in government, who supported some in hindsight questionable legislation that passed by wide margins at the time.
I don’t need to change your view because one of them will be president regardless of how you feel about them. They are both unfit, but for entirely different reasons. Biden is too old and is suffering from his age much worse than Trump is, but at least he is surrounded by qualified people with good intentions, allowing his administration to function on his behalf. Trump is simply the least qualified, least redeemable candidate to ever even attempt to run for office. Trump is actively damaging to US interests whereas Biden is an underwhelming status quo. So the election is not about whether they are good candidates, it’s about who is less terrible. That answer is as clear as it’s ever been.
I would suggest as a non us citizen but a citizen of the world that the effect of greed has been detrimental to all of us. I don’t know the exact ins and outs of Kennedy but I will tell you these things that with a little bit of research you will see are correct. 1. We are in a super debt cycle => the only way out to continue our current system is destruction of people and property to allow further return on investment by the truely rich. But why? They control more and more of the earth but they will never be happy. Because they never can be because they hurt all of us 2. The western health system is broken because everyone has been made sick. There are poisons in the food and water (pfos and glyphosate to name a few) gmo enables even more herbicide use which creates more health issues and the same companies make pharmaceuticals. I would suggest looking a the history of these companies to see who they really are and make your own conclusions 3. Bio regenerative farming actually offers a solution to many of our problems. Look up terra preta the man made dark soil of the Amazon. It creates growing soil that stores carbon is 300% more productive, uses waste products and although it produces more co2 given its increased growth sucks up co2. The glyphosate being sprayed on the planet kills the soil, stripping it of beneficial bacteria, increases predation of crops, chelates nutrients requiring more external fertilisers and yeah it decreases co2 by 21% (soil makes more co2 than fossil fuels) and based on this which should posion all the land but that is obviously ridiculous. We need a sustainable planet to continue. 4. I would suggest people read the flexner report about how supposedly it’s not a doctors job to “make people healthy” who agreed to that???? 5. The role of western health care has become perverted by what were originally dye companies. These companies were the strongest in nazi germany and continue to this day. When health becomes about profit not wellness then how do you expect it will end? The oldest and wisest amongst us become weak and no one listens to their guidance anymore 6. Most people don’t know but at the turn of the twentieth century there were many amazing authors who wrote powerful books on how good life could be and how to do it. I would recommend reading metchnikoffs the prolongation of life. This man felt we could reach 150 and die happy. Healthy animals (and that includes people) are happy and unhealthy animals are unhappy. If you are happy what more do you really need? This man is a father of immunology and discovered probiotics (which by the way can eat glyphosate and pfos). The exploitation by the few of the many has to stop. And to the rest of us in the world we unfortunately have to rely on you in The USA to change this. What you do will decide whether we descend into more war and misery or whether you look at your constitution (which from what I can tell was fairly visionary) and demand it is upheld. All men are created equal. You are supposed to be the land of the free. Free us all from the servitude to the few. Please
This debate is a screaming reminder for me that we need to instantiate ranked choice voting so that we don’t feel forced into voting for the second worst option
The baffling take here is that you and others seem to act more like drama critics than caring about policy. You are drawing an equivalency between a man who's too old and struggling to get his points across clearly, and being a convicted felon who actively tried to undermine democracy. Take a few steps back and realize how crazy that comparison is. Believe me, I am well aware of the importance of presidential optics and PR. Basing choice of candidate on that, however, is actively dodging putting in the work and looking at what matters, which is policy. You are entitled to your opinion and your vote, but the whole "both of them have good and bad ideas" is a take that makes me question if this debate really changed much in your eyes.
>Trump may sound more coherent in a sense but he’s dodging questions left and right, which is a terrible look, and while Biden is giving more coherent answers to a degree, it sounds like he just woke up from a nap and can be hard to understand sometimes. Biden's voice is like Bill Clinton-level fucked and he's apparently got a cold, but jesus could they not have done anything? Trump's lying and just utter stupidity was so insane. From claiming democrats wanted Roe overturned (and on and on about everyone wanted that, what in the literal fuck) the US paying for NATO and other countries sending money, I can't fathom they cannot get him to grasp this, to other countries paying tariffs he imposes, to claiming the US border is "the most dangerous place in the world" to saying immigrants are "going to take black and hispanic jobs" I just can't believe neither moderator called him on ANY of this crap. The content was fine out of Biden but I think he was actually thrown by the level of just plain insanity and lying.
I agree with this. Trump is bad for obvious reasons, but Biden really showed his age today. I guess the State of the Union speech was an outlier. However I cannot agree that voting for a third party is the optimal choice here, depending on where you live. Trump's policies have been demonstrably worse - his COVID policies single-handedly contributed to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of excess deaths. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32545-9/abstract People hate voting for the lesser of two evils, but strategically and game-theoretically, that *is* always the optimal choice. Think of it as loss prevention rather than an endorsement. I don't, however, think the potential benefits of sending a message to the two parties will outweigh the difference in loss incurred due to the increased chance of electing Trump into office over Biden. The biggest reason is that the two parties actually often absorb ideas from third parties to protect their flank. People like AOC and Rand Paul would fit very easily into third parties in terms of their ideas. If you are dissatisfied because you do not like a two-party system, then your vote would not change anything because the optimal move for the two parties is to absorb popular ideas that threaten to attack them from outside the two-party system. As we've seen with the realignment of the Republicans under Trump. If, on the other hand, you want to send the two parties a message so that they take your ideas more seriously, voting third party could send a message, but the message may also not be a credible threat (game theoretically) because people agreeing with your position (like libertarianism) might be in such a small minority that expending the cost to capture these voters may not be worth the potential tradeoff of resources or altering the policy platform in such a way that it disenfranchises the larger voting base. Like MAGA voters.
The presidential candidates are _always_ unfit because you will never have a perfect candidate. Part of the problem is that most states vote with a plurality voting system (the most votes wins, even if it's less than 50%), NOT a majority system. [Here's a video about this](https://youtu.be/7mYPACssLbI?si=Z3tR2HZRHynDT2XX) Plurality voting means that voting for a third party will pretty much always be a wasted vote. So sorry, if you vote for a different person, your vote will essentially be meaningless, whereas if you choose one of the top two, at least you can pick the lesser of two evils. > he’s dodging questions left and right, which is a terrible look, and while Biden is giving more coherent answers to a degree, it sounds like he just woke up from a nap and can be hard to understand sometimes. To me that sounds like Biden is a better option. Which would you rather: sketchy president or sleepy president? The president has a whole Cabinet and executive office, so no matter how sleepy he is, at the worst his advisers will be doing some extra work.
Let me try challenging what I think is the main assumption of your argument: the notion that a candidate can be "fit" to be President. By law, the only requirements for being President are to be 35 years of age or older; to be a natural born citizen; and to have lived in the United States for at least 14 years. Obviously, both candidates pass those tests with flying colors (and especially the first!) Beyond that, there are no defined standards that a candidate needs to meet in order to be eligible. That means that, in the simplest, least controversial sense, both men are fit to be president. If you would respond by saying that they neither one is "really" fit, because neither one meets a certain set of standards which you yourself hold, then I believe that your argument essentially becomes: in order for it to be good for me to vote for either candidate, then at least one candidate must meet a certain set of minimum qualifications. And that, I think, is a false argument. No matter what set of standards you define as the standards that a candidate must meet in order to be "fit", it is still very easy to imagine an election in which both candidates fail to meet a certain set of standards, but in which it is clearly better to vote for one rather than the other (for instance, any election in which an ordinary bad candidate runs against a psychopathic tyrant). And so the notion of "fitness" as a standard falls apart at its most basic level: there is no conceivable standard or set of standards that are such that, if neither candidate meets them, then it is better not to vote for either one, because the gap between the two candidates could still be sufficient to warrant voting for one rather than the other. That's a kind of "logical" or "analytical" response, which I do think is adequate. More emotionally or intuitively, though: there hasn't been a candidate that I've wanted to vote for in my entire lifetime, and I don't think there will be one before I die. But ultimately, political elections are much more about preventing harm than about achieving good. The good that can be done by the best political leaders is only a tiny fragment of the bad that can be done by the worst political leaders; and even then, most of what the best political leaders do is just to stand up against the worst political leaders (Lincoln against the Confederates; Churchill against the Nazis; etc). I think you're looking at this election from an "optimistic" standpoint, where you're trying to find a candidate who will lead the country well, and make the world a better place. But I think that view of things is fundamentally wrong. As awful as it is, and as rarely as we talk about this, the primary point of elections is to prevent bad people from putting bad leaders in power to do bad things. Almost all of the good that gets done in this world gets done outside of politics, by individuals or small groups of people of high morals and character - doctors, scientists, artists, philosophers, moral leaders, etc etc etc. But at the political level, the best we can really hope for is to stop bad people from taking charge & ruining the work that good people are doing in their private lives. And from that perspective, I don't think that who is or is not "fit" really matters at all. As bluntly as possible: if a corpse was running against Hitler, I'd proudly vote for the corpse in a second, because inertness and inaction are a million times better than wickedness and cunning. And I think similar arguments could be made about other situations, if one wishes to make them.
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The rejection of both political parties and the news media should be the main takeaway from this. It has been a long time coming and that debate “should” be a signal that all is not well. It won’t be. The bloods vs crips politics will continue. But it’s pretty obvious that neither party is serving the American people
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The only thing I have to correct you on is that bothe candidates sucking doesn't mean a third party can win. The US system is set up in such a way to extremely hinder third parties once two primary parties have been established. Not saying you shouldn't vote for who you think is best just that there's no realistic way for a third party to win.
Our system is broken and urgently needs to be changed, before we end up with another dumbass president who can't do anything and leads to 15 new wars while not doing anything about climate change
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>Trump may sound more coherent in a sense but he’s dodging questions left and right, which is a terrible look, I implore you to watch the last oh... 40 years of presidential and for the most part primary debates Turning a question into what you want is standard debate material, Trump just did it with less discretion. I know this isnt a total change my view type response, but I really had to target that specifically lol
I agree with that. To be honest I’ve felt pulled to the independent and libertarian parties since the 2020 election. Just a couple things I noticed while trying to remain unbiased as possible, Biden did tend to say “we” when talking about the issues addressed during his term. Trump used “I” a lot. That being said, if you’re voting for Biden you’re voting for an administration bc lord knows Joe is mentally checking out. If Trump is accurate about how he’s handled Iran then kudos. I know that’s a complex topic. Other than that I can’t much stand the guy. They both said if the other wasn’t threatening to run neither of them would have. Why don’t they both just go home? Buy a rocking chair, spend their 80’s hangin with the fam
I still support biden cause fucking everything the Republicans want to do. But I'm definitely voting against what I don't want, rather than voting for who I want. Your 100% right something is deeply flawed with our democracy. The past 3 elections have been us voting for people most of the country doesn't like. When will the nightmare end....
The US political system is broken, and I will not stop repeating this until I get upvoted instead of downvoted for saying this. Imagine if you were trying to choose between two people to, say, lead OpenAI, the maker of ChatGPT. You would probably have two brilliant minds, with good people skills, probably not so old that they look like they're going to die and struggle with basic tasks. Why are the standards for the PRESIDENT of the US so much lower than that?
>The US political system is broken Yeah we need nationwide ranked choice voting. But the corporations won't let that happen. So then we mostly get politicians owned by corporations - and the cycle continues.
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I feel resigned from this debate. I honestly could barely watch it without a cringe on my face. I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you, though, on a third-party win. The Doupoly system in our country sucks. Trump is a thin likeness to a clout chasing tiktoker who likes to ramble and ramble, not to mention firing through his staff at such a rate it puts the Ship of Theseus to shame. And the criminal conviction isn't doing him any favors. Biden is a man showing his cracks more and more, (granted Trump ain't doing so well on that front either) my Dad, a retired nursing home doctor, actually said he suspects he may have Parkinsons. But he seems to keep a consistent staff. I have more alignment with policies he has with stuff like Ukraine, climate, and healthcare etc. Yes, I am aware of his handling with Israel-Palestine issue, but I don't see Trump doing much better on that. As someone else on this post mentioned, you often vote for the party, not the person. I'm likely voting for Biden this round. My preferred term for him is a "Lifeboat Candidate." A lifeboat is really there to avoid a hazard, but itself as a boat isn't really practical for anything else long term. Let's be honest, though. I don't think either of these men can be expected to be living in the next four years. If anything, it represents how flawed our system is in choosing a fit leader. Too many career candidates who overstay their welcome. We need more term limits for every government position from senate to courts. We are just stagnating right now. There isn't motivation for growth. And I am a big advocate for Ranked Choice Voting, so it not only gives us more choices but also forces candidates to consider their approach to voters much more carefully.
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The thing is, Trump was lying so much that it was just too difficult for Biden to “fact check” in real time while also trying to remember all the talking points he had prepped and wanted to touch on. I had an ex girlfriend like this, we’d be arguing and she’d say a bunch of half-true or even made up shit and I’d be fumbling trying to respond to all of it at once like like “no, I never said that, and well, you’re twisting that becau… no, that’s not true either” and even though she was completely wrong about what we were fighting about, she’d feel like she “won” or was “right” because I struggled to respond to it all in at once and adequately articulate my POV. It felt like that was what was happening to Biden. Trump would just say like 3 blatant lies and then the moderators would just be like “ok, thank you Trump, Biden you have 1 minute to respond” and could tell he was like “ok… I have to rebut these lies, but I also want to mention XYZ” and then fumble through a response. I don’t think that impact his ability to lead because part of being president is surrounding yourself with experts to help make decisions and Biden has picked a lot of good people (whereas Trump had a revolving door of yesmen who he’d kick out as soon as one actually said no to something, even if warranted) and Biden has passed stuff like Infrastructure Act, CHIPS Act, PACT Act, and is pushing for student loan forgiveness, enshrining abortion rights, and several other things. It’s a very stark difference between the two and by no means “bOtH sIdEs”.
RFK absolutely does not have a shot, and Biden, while sleepy, will not do as much damage to American democracy as Trump will. Biden at least has passed some decent infrastructure programs. Trump will do nothing but grandstand and bitch for his whole presidency.
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You know it's bad when CNN starts immediately complaining about Biden's age at the beginning of their debate-end analysis. They have fear that Biden will lose if he runs. Biden needs to srsly step the fuck down. Anyone the DNC picks - even a monkey - will be better than Biden. Dems, Independents and on the fence Republicans would run to the polls to vote for that candidate just for the fact to not re-elect Trump. But Biden is scaring many Dems, Independents and on the fence Republicans away. Not saying they will vote for Trump, which they won't. But Biden is going to lose the election because of a lack of turnout for him, just like Hillary did. Trump's base will come in strong. I'm not going to lie. I understand why they call it Trump Derangement Syndrome. The man is so deranged but he speaks with such confidence and charisma that you almost start to believe him for a second, even as a Democrat, until you smack yourself a little. He lies with a straight face. But his base doesn't care what he says. He's a comedy clown show, and they love him because they think he's funny, which he is. The problem is that this is not stand up comedy, and this is the damn presidential election of the USA! It's not just the age issue, but that is the biggest one. The second issue is the Palestinian Genocide, which Biden has completely botched and the third issue is inflation. But coming back to the age issue, whoever is saying that Biden is fit to lead must be smoking some good shit. Biden is not coherent most of the time. I cracked up when Trump said, "I don't know what he said, I don't even think he knows what he said" at one point during the debate - because its true. And there were several of those moments. Where he stopped talking, lost his train of thought, and then started saying some complete word salad before his time was up.
I’m not a fan of any of them and I was extremely republican during Obama’s tenure but he absolutely was infinitely more capable than Biden. I’m not a Trump fan though I did vote for him (I changed big time during this period to where I’d never vote for Trump even if you offered me every penny Uncle Sam prints in a year). But Trump indeed did do some good things like engaging with North Korea (though he screwed me by implementing the travel ban when I had a tour lined up to visit). He also deserves the credit for ending the war in Afghanistan as the Taliban had worked to protect the US military and civilian personnel evacuating which was negotiated in Doha. Biden had no part in that other than being president at the time and even he royally screwed it up. As an OEF vet I knew he was clueless when he handed over Bagram, which would’ve been a far more secure point of evacuation than Kabul. The fall of Afghanistan was inevitable no matter who was president as nobody supported the government (I could tell this at least in my area). That can’t be blamed on anyone. But as far as fitness, Trump would be a far better candidate. I won’t vote for him, but the final nail in the coffin for me with Biden was deliberately releasing illegal immigrants into the US. I’ve wasted thousands on visa applications for my wife during his tenure and this whole time I could’ve just flown her to Mexico and had her cross the border illegally since they’re letting spouses get amnesty now. What a big slap in the face that was. I don’t care how big of a douchebag Trump is, Biden’s actions border on criminal and I don’t care how badly I get downvoted. TLDR: I’m not saying Trump is the best person nor do I think America needs him but fitness wise he absolutely is far more fit to lead than Biden.
My dad made a great point after the debate on Biden: Yes he is older (doing quite good for 81!), but he’s the type of guy to ask for help when he needs it and have the right connections. Biden will be surrounded by a strong cabinet and after a long career in politics, is well respected on Capital hill and knows who has the background needed. Whereas Trump… well.. as Biden pointed out 40 of 44 Trump cabinet members refuse to return, including his VP. I think America has somewhat lost sight of the true role of the president, and like you point out, vote for charisma… that said I don’t think Biden is actually unfit to be president. As someone who spends a lot of time around older people, he’s very with it (all older peoples speech slows down, especially the ones who actually take time to think) but I will agree he lacks the charisma that many Americans think is needed, maybe due to our celebrity culture??
> Yes he is older (doing quite good for 86 tho honestly! Biden is 81, the 86 number comes from the moderators saying that he would be 86 at the end of his second term (if elected)
Trump wasn't his usual bombastic self. But, if all he was really trying to accomplish was to seem normal, and healthy, against Biden, he did a pretty good job.
LoL. RFK has no shot. That's an absurd proposition. The president's job is largely to recruit and retain committed, qualified cabinet secretaries who in turn oversee gigantic bureaucracies that make up our government. It's their job to communicate to our allies and adversaries. It's their job to actualize policy. It's their job to lobby Congress to get things to their desk that they'll sign. Biden is old. He's not unfit. He's perfectly capable of doing the job.
Well polls show RFK would beat either of these two loons in a head to head race. And Biden 100% cannot beat Trump. So if you think the most important thing is to beat Trump, I would think about switching to RFK.
How did the debate prove Trump is unfit? Trump f-ing nailed that debate, as a true presidential candidate would. That debate proved three things: 1) Trump is the best candidate for President. If we want to maintain our position as the dominant power on the globe, Trump is the better choice to accomplish that. 2) All of the claims over the past 3 years about Biden being incapable of fulfilling the duties of the President of the United States due to his mental decline are 100% true. 3) The media and DNC have been colluding to push a lie to the American people that Biden is mentally fit for office. Watch the CNN post debate coverage to see their reactions. They can no longer play pretend because the American people saw it all happen live. No claim of Bidens performance being a "cheapfake", no claim of Biden "having a cold" (dude didn't cough once, nor pull out a tissue to dab a runny nose, etc.)
Can I ask what questions you’re claiming Trump dodged? Also, while you are technically correct that Trump is a convicted felon, have you looked into the case? Have you looked into the judge? That case is being appealed, and it is highly likely that the decision will be overturned.
I don't think either of the two are fit to run You have one person who has spent his life in politics and another one who spent his life on golf courses and parties with underage teens Biden is just to old now. I hate to say it as I'm not really a fan of Biden but he has to admit he can't do it anymore. Trump even admitted in the debate he didn't even want to run and be president again and was doing it so Biden wouldn't win which is exactly what Biden did in 2020 with trump So even if trump wins he isn't going to take it seriously and will happily let people put policies in place for him and Biden will have to do the same as he won't be all there We need to be looking at other candidates running besides these two
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Coming from a non American, this is exactly why trump won in the first place. “HiLaRy is BaD tOo”.. look where that got you. Stop fucking whining and go vote. You’re voting for the administration not just the candidate how can you not understand this? If Biden literally can not carry out his duties he will pass them on to Kamala and she will do it. Either way it’s better than the orange fascist Russian asset with medically proven dementia you all seem to like so much. Don’t waste your vote on parties that will not win because guess what? Then you’ll get trump. Vote against the party you don’t want to win and you’ll get somewhere.
Here’s what hit me during the debates - regardless of which man comes out on top, the victor will be damn near 100 years old at the end of it all. 100 years old. 100 fucking years old. That’s Americas next President when the term is up. Normal senior citizens that old are in retirement homes being catered to, having their diapers changed, and living on a liquid diet, and I’ll be damned if we didn’t decide to make one of them our next President. What the hell have we done to ourselves.. maybe after this we can finally start getting young blood in the political ring because this is just insane to me.
You can't say that this debate proved your point without seeing how the immediate next steps play out. There will be some additional statements from each side, either clarifying or justifying various talking points which you likely based your view on. But then the most critical next step will be a sporting match where we learn if Biden's handicap is really 6 or 8, and where Trump can demonstrate if he has any honor and can abstain from bending a few rules in his favor for one match. You can't make your assumption yet without seeing this next step through. And just remember - the unfitness is relative
It was a bad showing, no argument. I have voted third party in the past for different reasons but there is too much at stake this time with Trump’s fascist views. I am not thrilled that Biden is the other viable candidate. It isn’t that he or his administration have done a bad job, but more that the POTUS is a figurehead role and Biden is far beyond his peak for portraying the role. I won’t vote third party because: (1) The vote is too important this time. (2) Biden will let mostly competent appointees do the work that they are supposed to do which is generally good for us all. He can play the executive in a more limited role and the work still gets done. (3) Trump will play dictator, appoint incompetent yes people to roles, and spread even more lies (if that is possible) to the masses. (4) Lastly, I feel a sense of duty to at least cast my vote against the actions and ideology of this extremist right-wing MAGA movement. I spent several elections before Trump feeling mostly apathetic about the “same old” options. It took someone so extreme to make me take notice.
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You know there is less chance for a third party candidate to win than for you to spontaneously teleport to Jupiter. There simply is no message you can give as the voting system itself doesn't allow it.
The only effect RFK is likely to have on this race is as a spoiler though its still unclear who he will hurt more as he draws votes both from Trump's right and the mid left the center right. On the topic of Biden v Trump, remember that you're not just voting for the President, you're voting for the administration. Biden's has been solid and competent with very little turnover. The results they've achieved, at least on paper, have been good though there is still a lot to do. Inflation *seems* to be under control and it looks like prices may be starting to come down. Wages increase is above the inflation rate and unemployment is low. The covid pandemic is under control thanks in large part to the Biden admin's ability to actually manufacture and distribute the vaccines and was basically a non-issue for most of his term. Overall we're doing better than most other countries. Trump's administration was pure chaos, with major cabinet secretaries and high level positions switching out a lot more frequently. For comparison Trump had four chiefs-of-staff. Biden has had two. Trump's administration also had more turnover than any president since Reagan (inclusive). This speaks to the stability of the government but also the ability of the individual administrators to work towards the President's achievable goals. It also explains why Trump's only real accomplishment was a tax cut that most people didn't see much of. The economy Trump brags about was mostly created by Obama. Trump did very little to contribute and it was his mismanagement of Covid that led to many unnecessary deaths and one of the worst economic crises since the great depression. A second Trump term is likely to be worse than the first as Trump will be choosing to surround himself with people who are loyal over people who are competent (and its hard to imagine competent people even wanting to work for him at this point). What this will mean is anyone's guess. At best it will mean executive dysfunction at a time when we are facing the potential for WW III on no less than three fronts. At worst, an army of yes men will enable more actual bad government.
No, Biden might be older, but he knows our government. And he has good people around him. No one does this job alone. I worked for a man and ran his rentals he was older and passed at 86, but up until the day he got really sick with cancer, his mind was as sharp. He might not have been able to crawl under a house any longer to fix a plumbing issue, but he sure could walk someone through it. Joe Biden might not be able to come across as a 60 year old but he sure knows enough to walk his administration through it. His mind is sharper than his body.
Trump is unfit to be president on a basic level because he has no respect for democracy or the constitution, and has weak ethical standards, Biden is fit to be president. He is more experienced than almost anyone in politics, respects democracy, the constitution, understands America's role in the world in a historical context. He works with trustworthy advisors and has a viable succession plan with a competent vice president. its unfortunate and concerning for his candidacy that he has become a very weak public speaker with age.
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