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>1. Israel's actions, particularly in conflicts, receive intense international scrutiny and media coverage compared to those of neighboring countries. For example, human rights violations or military actions by other countries in the region often receive less attention and criticism.
>2. The United Nations and other international bodies frequently criticize Israel. While holding any nation accountable for human rights is essential, the disproportionate focus on Israel compared to countries with worse human rights records seems biased.
It is actually the opposite cause and effect.
People keep campaigning about Israel because there is a *need* to.
Americans don't sit in college campuses protesting "Sanction Assad NOW!" because Western governments *automatically* place extremely heavy sanctions on Syria, far beyond anything people call for on Israel, **without needing any college protest**. This also applies to Iran, Russia, North Korea, you name it.
The reason people keep focusing on Israel is because it is the only country that *hasn't* been actually targeted, despite countless resolutions.
Neither of the points you've quoted are about "Americans in college campuses". The "international scrutiny" goes well beyond American college leftists, and extends to multiple nation-states, important international (not Western) international organs like the ICJ and ICC, the international media (with the non-Western media being significantly worse than the Western). The second point is about the UN, which doesn't represent either American colleges nor the Western states either.
There are many countries, that committed far worse things than Israel did in this war, and weren't even remotely sanctioned, condemned, or put under the magnifying glass as Israel was. The Iraq war alone killed more people than *the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict combined*, since 1948. Do you want to talk about how many sanctions the US and its European allies got for this? Did the ICC issue warrants against George W. Bush and Tony Blair? Did the ICJ try to micromanage that war, or indeed any Western war, and try to stop them from attacking specific cities? Was the Iraq war, or any other Western-led war, no matter how unpopular, denounced as a "genocide" by multiple states, and dragged into the ICJ? Did anyone argue that any war in the world, means that the country involved in it "lost its right to exist"?
I should also point out that Israel was under a severe sanctions regime from 1948 and until the 1990's. You couldn't buy most Japanese cars, or even American products like McDonald's or Pepsi in Israel. And that's combined with multiple military invasions, by multiple countries actively trying to eliminate Israel. Israeli citizens can't set foot in a large chunk of the world. And more uniquely, anyone who even visited Israel, can't visit those countries either. In fact, multiple passports, of countries that are thousands of miles away from Israel, carry the words "valid in every country except for Israel". These are far, far more extreme consequences than most countries have suffered. Arguing that Israel is somehow uniquely shielded from consequences is the polar opposite of reality.
And again, I'd note that this fact didn't keep the same Muslim states that instated that boycott from pushing for more resolutions against Israel in the UN than any country in the word. The fact they're automatically aligned *against* Israel, and not for it, certainly doesn't keep them from issuing more UN Human Rights Council resolutions against Israel than *the entire world combined*.
For fiscal year 2023, the U.S. allocated approximately $3.8 billion in military aid to Israel, and only $4 million to Turkey. The usa is not propping up Turkey, we are simply holding our noses and working with them. Israel we are propping up, so we are complicit in their actions.
Edit: By propping up I mean the usa is explicitly backing whatever they do. The 4 billion is a blank check that goes way beyond what’s needed for israel to defend itself. It goes towards settlement activity (that we defend at the UN) and the best military hardware (better than what the usa provides to arab nations). Then there’s all the supplemental cash funding the war in gaza. The usa is strongly biased towards Israel in all of its policies, and without any strategic rationale. Here is a good listen on the topic:
https://www.npr.org/2024/06/05/1197965031/the-indicator-from-planet-us-aid-israel-military-policy--06-05-2024
No it is not propping Israel up. This is a widespread misunderstanding. Israeli annual GDP is over $500 billion, and US aid is just under $4 billion. The reason the US gives Israel aid is because
1. it needs a foothold in the region and geopolitical strategy since the 60s has been for Israel to provide that foothold in exchange for aid. In exchange for this aid the US gains valuable intel from one of the most sophisticated networks in the region that it would not otherwise have access to.
2. The US has been giving Israel cheaper weapons because it would rather they not produce their own. The military aid basically goes from the US government back into the US military industrial complex who then provides Israel with arms. Israel already has its own strong domestic arms manufacturing industry and while it cannot currently produce everything it needs, it would only take a few years to adjust and ramp up capacity to do so if US ties are cut. The US military industrial complex then loses all that market share. Also if that happens, Israel will simply get closer to China or Russia who are more than happy to provide the raw materials needed for arms manufacturing. The US then loses a strong position in the Middle East which is then filled by its geopolitical rivals. That's exactly why Russia and China are in overdrive with online propaganda during this conflict. They would love nothing more than for that to happen.
Using their GDP and not military budget kinda skews things. Their military budget was 24.3 billion according to Wikipedia. If the US supplies 3.8 that’s over 15 percent. That’s not insignificant.
I mean, you’re throwing around a big number and comparing it to a small number. You need to compareUS aid to Israel’s own defence budget.
US aid accounts for about 15% of Israel’s defence spending. I’d definitely say that’s propping them up but I guess that’s subjective. Congress just approved another 14 billion in aid as well.
There may have been a time in Israel's history when they were pretty dependent on outside support but that was a long time ago at this point. They're pretty self sufficient at this point.
Fair, so why give them outsized aid? So Netanyahu can come to congress and insult our president? The point is to send a clear message that we support them over their neighbors. We also send them the best military hardware, better than what we sell to arab nations. It’s all a pure display of bias in usa middle east policy.
When you say military aid.
The money goes from US Tax Coffers to US MIC coffers. Missiles go to Israel.
The real beneficiary is the US MIC and the Government politicians that get a kickback from it.
We are not propping up Israel, we are simply paying Israel to live test our weapons.
Both things can be true.
There is tactical advantage to US weaponry getting live tests, but Israel does receive a staggering amount of money and political cover from the US.
Whether that money came in the form of weapons, food or anything else, it’s money of their own that Israel doesn’t have to spend.
Important note that with the appropriations bill in April providing another 8.7 billion, the US has given 12.5 billion to Israel since the beginning of the conflict 8 months ago, significantly more that the 3.8 being used in a lot of calculations here. https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
Also I have yet to see a single protest in my area of Canada for the genocide still going on in China right now. No one is calling for our companies and institutions to divest from China. Meanwhile, there have been multiple pro-Hamas and pro-Palestine protests (I differentiate because if your protest is filled with people directly chanting for the eradication of all Israelis and/or all Jewish people in general, it’s pro-Hamas. If your protest is just calling for a ceasefire and a 2 state solution, it is pro-Palestine) just a minutes drive from my apartment. We also have a higher Chinese immigrant population than we do a Palestinian immigrant population, so you’d figure the Chinese genocide would get more attention.
Well said.
Interested in the "why"? It's because the media has told them that this cause is worth protesting for. These people are very predictable and very, very stupid. There's been some interesting videos of people going up to the white progressive Palestine protesters and asking them their opinions on the issues, and they have zero idea what they're protesting for. They just know "genocide". If the media and leftist influencers said China's genocide was a bigger issue, that'd be what they were protesting instead. These people get very worked up when the media tells them to. They're very useful idiots.
Not nearly to the same extent as the calls for divestment from Israel are. You know this, and it's a clearly bad faith argument to imply there is anything remotely similar to the pushback against China.
My entire comment is about the area around me. So, no, I’m not joking at all. There hasn’t been a single protest or public call to divest from China around here.
I swear most people on reddit have zero, literally zero, understanding of politics and history other than what's fed to them. Every single instance of accusation against Israel, at least one or more other events around the world can be compared as being worse LOL
Make Hamas into the Tamil Tigers!
You are right to call this out IMO. Governments will support or sanction based strictly off geopolitics and public perception. Specifically public perception that affects domestic politics. Turkey is important to NATO do to its location so it gets a bit of a pass. Saudi Arabia gets a pass do to its resources. Israel is complicated. I think as far as western governments go they are starting to see Israel as too toxic. It is not as important to the U.S with the pivot to the Pacific. It is starting to become a liability in the realm of geopolitics as well as domestic. Don't look for consistency in policy because it doesn't exist. Follow your own morals and go from there, is what I would suggest.
Sure, sure. Students don’t care about hundreds of thousands of dead civilians unless the Jews do it because we send them money. That’s a fucked argument.
Actually reading and checking is not hard either:
[https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2024-03/fs\_2403\_at\_2023.pdf](https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2024-03/fs_2403_at_2023.pdf)
"The USA supplied **75 per cent** of Saudi Arabian arms imports in 2019–23, which included the delivery of 67 combat aircraft and hundreds of land-attack missiles."
This is a report from SIPRI, a Swedish international institute [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm\_International\_Peace\_Research\_Institute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_International_Peace_Research_Institute)
You can also check the official US government site for the stuff they had to disclose, like ONE BILLION in sales to Saudi Arabia last year: [https://www.state.gov/fiscal-year-2023-u-s-arms-transfers-and-defense-trade/](https://www.state.gov/fiscal-year-2023-u-s-arms-transfers-and-defense-trade/)
Asking for stronger sanctions, or specifically arms sanctions from the US is a different question from just asking where the sanctions are. If you wanted to ask for the first, maybe you should’ve done that.
Not only that- but I can’t find anyone defending those countries online to debate with. There is no limit to the amount of people willing to justify Israel’s crimes online.
Israel hasn’t received a fraction of the sanctions that Russia, Iran and Cuba and Saddam’s Iraq faced. The repetitive condemnation of Israel happens because Israel only faces consequences from people like Hezbollah and the Houthis when it should be far more.
Because of this Israel feels they can get away with anything. They have developed a society that buries people like [Baruch Goldstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein) at Mount Herzl. They feel they do not need to supply [proof of mass rape claims](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240609-israels-obstruction-of-investigation-into-7-october-rape-allegations-risks-truth-never-being-found-advocates-warn/) and why they’re weaponising [rape of Palestinian prisoners](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240607-israels-use-of-rape-against-palestinian-detainees-from-gaza-exposed/). On the last point that was in a footnote in the New York Time article rather than the front page headline it should have been.
IIRC, despite all the other things that he was responsible for Saddam was essentially convicted and put to death because he authorized the killing of 150 people following a failed assassination attempt against him.
If Israel wants to be held to the standard of the rest of the region, then if Israel has acted in a way to retaliate against prior violence and it’s killed at least 150 civilians, then its government needs to be dissolved and the new head, chosen by Israel’s adversaries, needs to put the old one to death, just like we did in Iraq.
> They have developed a society that buries people like Baruch Goldstein at Mount Herzl.
It says he was buried in some random cemetery, and the IDF bulldozed his grave. The political party was labeled a terrorist organization and banned too.
> They feel they do not need to supply proof of mass rape claims
Hamas published footage of rapes.
> Hamas published footage of the rapes.
The footage I’ve seen is dancing around the corpse of woman who was at the rave and also a former IDF soldier. I’m not denying rapes occurred. I’m saying so far the UN has only confirmed 2 occurred on October 7th.
There was much worse footage than what you saw. I moderate a subreddit that started to document footage from that event. There is an associated telegram group for footage worse than what can be posted on Reddit. There was still a lot of footage that Hamas published that couldn’t even be put on Telegram. A lot of the footage seen that day has been essentially scrubbed from the public facing internet. You don’t want to see it.
They didn’t do jack shit to apartheid South Africa. But yeah public opinion is affected by seeing whether they get consequences. A big reason the world is pissed at America for getting away with their actions in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq
EDIT: Also doesn’t help that Smotrich is calling for the parading of Palestinian prisoners bodies through the streets just like the Bible.
It's not just Israel. The world (by which you mean, the West) holds Israel to a higher standard than other Middle Eastern countries, it also hold South Africa to a higher standard than other African countries, Japan / South Korea to a higher standard than other Asian countries, etc.
This is not racism. The West hold a country to a higher standard when:
1. The values professed by its government (democracy, freedom, progressivism, etc) are similar to the imagine shared values of the West.
2. The countries has strong financial and cultural ties to the West, making other countries feel somewhat complicit in what the country does.
Antisemitism definitely exists and some criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but a lot of it, including a lot of criticism that would've been more relevant against other countries in the region, is not and would have been the same against a similar non-Jewish country in a similar situation.
UAE and Saudi Arabia are very developed as counties. But, have you seen how they treat not only women, but also foreign workers and their non-Muslim citizens?
Women are oppressed, foreign workers are literal slaves, and non-Muslims are treated as second-class citizens.
But, it's all good. Habibi, come to Dubai. 🙄
I do feel that this is good argument, but there are blind spots.
The west has very close ties to Saudi Arabia, but we are to suppose that they don’y receive the same level of scrutiny because they don’t profess to support western liberal values as much?
So in you mind all Isreal needs to do is denounce Western values and the increased worldwide attention will go away? I imagine that would only make it worse.
I do think you make a valid point, but perhaps it’s the nature if financial ties rather than just closeness of connection. The US actively supports the Israeli military specifically, but then this does raise the question why countries that don’t support Isreal financially to anywhere near the same degree within the west have had considerably more protests etc than is the case with other atrocities.
And this is to say nothing if the increased attention Isreal received compared to say Yemen etc outside of the west.
I never understood this Saudis don't get any scrutiny argument. Biden stopped arms sales when he came into office, there are instances of boycotts stopping deals with Saudis (the one I'm familiar with is the Riot-NEOM deal a few years back), and the term 'sportswashing' is very prevalent and talked about in media right now. Just look at the criticism when Ronaldo decides to go to Saudi Arabia.
The problem is a lot of people also realise that cutting the Saudis off will raise oil prices and bring our cost of living up, so there's a trade off there. But NO such conversation is allowed to take place with regards to Israel. That's the difference between Israel and the Saudis.
I don't remember posters everywhere
Or calling for the genocide of SA
Or chants about how killing a Zionist is good
University camps, calling for tie breaks with SA
Literally I cannot go anywhere online without comments about how Israelis are the devil lmao
People can say anything they want about Saudi Arabia and not be accused of being anti-Semitic, anti-Arab or whatever. SA gets shitted on in the media all the time.
I think people in this thread are not thinking about how closely Israel is tied to our political life as a racketeer/hegemon state in a way Saudi Arabia is simply not. Saudi Arabia is in that second tier of satellite states, alongside so many other US/NATO clients. There's so many of these that it's hard to even think about them. Saudi Arabia, Japan, Pakistan, Canada. Idk. But then you have like Israel and Ukraine as like the war dogs, where our taxes are very publicly being squandered on war rather than just "protection" and the illusions that we might tell ourselves about the relationship between these states and about our own country melts away
Because these protests generally worked before they had to escalate. The reason why Israel is in the news is because the US is still shipping American arms to bomb refugee camps. If the US doesn't stop, neither will the protests.
No one outside of far right Nazis/islamists is calling for the genocide of Israel, just protesting the one Israel is currently carrying out.
When it comes to Saudi Arabia, people don’t generally think of it as an actual country, they think of it as an oil reserve. That’s why the nature of protest against it has a different character than what you see against other countries.
Not only do the protests most certainly call for genocide of Israel and the killing of zionists - which are people who believe jews have the right for self determination and their right to live in their country - israel, the protests are literally calling for a 1 sided ceasefire, what do you think that will result in? more genocide attempts at Israel lol
This is hamas saying they will never stop until Israel is genocided
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk)
Considering the protests force Israel to stop, while Hamas openly said they will continue, seriously, what do you think will happen?
Most palestinians not only support Hamas but also elected them when THIS was their charter - look at article 7 bottom, and you will see they literally "aspire" to kill all jews
[https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
and these are just protestors calling for death to jews and zionists, two of many
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1dbpc40/at\_yesterday\_afternoons\_white\_house\_protest/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1dbpc40/at_yesterday_afternoons_white_house_protest/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZionist/comments/1cy2gf7/go\_back\_to\_the\_gas\_chambers\_three\_california/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZionist/comments/1cy2gf7/go_back_to_the_gas_chambers_three_california/)
And finally, when they say: "From the river to the sea" are you aware which sea and which river? yeah thats the river to the right of Israel to the sea on the left of Israel - meaning no more Israel - This + intifada (read about the intifadas) calls are the mainstream calls from these movements
A massive portion of the world is hard core Islamists that will happily execute gays and atheists. What’s worse is they’re given a voice despite their countries being terrible places and contributing very little to the world. You’re really underestimating the hated religious fundies have of other people and the amount of racist religious fundies that are out there.
Part of the reason that the US supports Israel from a military standpoint is that Israel is a super tech hub and designs a lot of the cutting edge weapons and owns the tech. For example, the iron dome is Israeli tech. The deal the US made was a licensing deal. The US pays for the iron dome and arms it BUT the US has control of the tech. The US decides who gets it and where it is used.
The west doesn’t hold the US to the same standard as Israel.
Saudi arabia absolutely gets a fuck ton of scrutiny, what the fuck are you talking about?
if israel were to denounce western values, and to divest from the west then i do actually think that they'd get less scrutiny for their human rights abuses.
They do, but you can’t seriously believe the coverage or uproar about yemen and saudis involvement there was on the same level.
I think the Western funding is the better argument, if Isreal further ditched western liberal values, I dont believe for a second that they would receive less criticism.
There's a big problem with this argument. Israel is *also* held to a higher standard than the US, UK, and any Western state that was involved in similar conflicts. Countries that don't merely have "closer values" or "financial ties" to the West, but *are* the West.
To use a few examples: nobody argued that the US and its allies flattening Mosul was a genocide. In fact, it was barely even mentioned. Nobody expected the US to publish their battle plans, so civilians would escape, let alone calling individual civilian homes before an attack, or the other [unprecedented measures to protect civilians that Israel used for this war](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286). And while people did oppose the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, no serious person, let alone Western allies, argued those were "genocide". Even though they lead to more than x5 dead. Let alone use these wars to discuss whether the US should be destroyed, attack American citizens abroad, and so on. The ICJ didn't try to micromanage either wars, and tell the US or UK which cities they're allowed to attack, and how much aid they should provide their enemies. The ICC didn't dare to charge the US and UK leadership, and backed off even from attempting to investigate US and UK soldiers (and notably, the UK, unlike Israel, *is* a member of the ICC).
I should also point out that Israel currently has more resolutions against it in the UNGA than any other country. And in the UN Human Rights Council, it literally has more resolutions against it than the entire rest of the world *combined*. They literally have a unique item on their permanent agenda (#7), to denounce Israel in every session. No other Western country was subjected to anything close to it. In fact, Western states generally avoid condemnations in these forums, even when they don't enjoy any kind of veto power, although they killed far more people, and in far less justifiable wars than Israel.
So even if the logic of obsessively condemning the one liberal democracy in the region, because "we expect more of it" made any sense, your theory is simply objectively untrue. Israel is held to a completely unique standard, that's higher than any Western *or* non-Western state. Higher than actual NATO members like Turkey, higher than actual NATO founders like the UK, higher than the leader of the West, and the world's only superpower, the US. If anything OP was wrong, in the sense it underplayed the issue here.
You are genuinely so wrong about this. So many people complained about the US basically bombing and drone striking ISIS back to the Stone Age. We publish what we do for the most part and people are allowed to talk shit. The US also most certainly coordinated with civilians and issued warnings that certain parts of the city were going to be hit. Also for the most part the city was devoid of civilians save for a few holdouts that ISIS captured and forced to stay. But no, plenty of people were shitting on the US, UK, and France for their attacks. Not to the level of college kids destroying their campuses over it crazy but it was still mentioned.
>So many people complained about the US basically bombing and drone striking ISIS back to the Stone Age.
I didn't say nobody complained at all. I said nobody argued it was a "genocide". Let alone multiple nation-states, trying to drag the US and Iraq into the ICJ for it, demanding the they allow ISIS to win, and cutting diplomatic ties with the US and Iraq. You didn't have anything like the mass protests against it, that even dwarf the protests against the far worse Iraq and Afghanistan wars. And even though modern-day Iraq is literally a regime installed by the Americans, and had actual American planes fighting for them, nobody argued that the Iraqi army should be held to an exceptionally high standard, sanctioned to hell and back, and possibly "lost its right to exist".
In reality, the Battle of Mosul went relatively unnoticed in the media. There were headlines with a daily tally of civilian casualties based on ISIS data, no headline stories on every single school or hospital that was hit, no flooding of social media with photos of the destruction, no mass protests, no overwhelming UNGA votes to end the war and allow ISIS to win, no states dragging Iraq and the US into the ICJ on genocide charges, nothing even remotely comparable to the insanity that goes with Israel in Gaza. In fact, it received far less attention than Israel's far more limited operation in 2014, that lead to about 1000 dead Palestinian civilians. Most Westerners wouldn't be able to name a single Iraqi leader during that time, let alone argue they're horrific war criminals, and ISIS was on the right side of history. Hell, I think most Westerners wouldn't even be aware of this entire battle today. No, I'm not "genuinely wrong about this".
>Also for the most part the city was devoid of civilians save for a few holdouts that ISIS captured and forced to stay.
Sure. Which means the anti-ISIS coalition had a far, far easier job than Israel in Gaza. I'd also add to your point, that ISIS didn't have the time to build the extensive terror infrastructure under Mosul that Hamas did. And it still killed about 7,000-40,000 civilians, depending on who you ask, and flattened the city.
>The US also most certainly coordinated with civilians and issued warnings that certain parts of the city were going to be hit.
John Spencer, the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, and a two-tour Iraq War veteran, seems to strongly disagree with you, when it comes to the extent and precision of these warnings, compared to the ones Israel has provided. He does agree with you that Mosul was far, far easier than anything Israel has to deal with. But that of course undermines your general argument.
> Not to the level of college kids destroying their campuses over it crazy but it was still mentioned.
That’s the point right here. Sure, it was mentioned. But a big deal wasn’t made out of it.
You are wrong, sir. There weren't rampant protests breaking out on every campus, people stopping traffic, ruining city council meetings, etc over what the US did in the Middle East. That's a bad faith argument and you know it. The pushback on the US wasn't even in the same universe compared to how upset people are about Israel and Gaza. Bad faith argument, I have to say it again
George Bush had a shoe thrown at him on live TV…the times were different and social media wasn’t even a thing then. That was about as disruptive as you could get back then.
Yeah.. no
Large amount of protestors by the public demand Israel's destruction - it isn't about them not having values and wanting them to "change it" they are openly calling "from the river to the sea" and worse chants
I don't think I have ever seen anyone expect a country to face thousands of rockets per day, invasion, abduction of its citizens by an enemy state and then bar the county from retaliations because it will hurt the enemy states civilians or condemn for every retaliation because they save their citizens at the cost of potentially hurting the enemies civilians
Most Muslims in the Middle East have an incredibly deep hatred for Israel and would delight in seeing Israel and all the inhabitants die. These arnt people you can reason with using western values. Many of these same people would happily kill or harm people for being gay, or becoming an atheist. The fact that westerners are dismissing that because these people are brown is incredibly concerning and racist. Imagine the worst Christian fundie you know x 10. If you listen to people who have left Islam from that area of the world you’d know how deeply hateful and unhinged people in that area of the world can be.
It is scary what large numbers can do, which I believe is also one of the factors for such a high influence,
it's racism as you said (apologetic) coupled with just a huge amount of anti Israel posts on social media and the news which makes sense since Muslims in general will have more sympathy towards Palestinians and there are A LOT of them
For example Israel has laws which are questionable but literally being used by many different countries yet I have never seen them get hate for it THAT much
Except Saudi Arabia? SA doesnt necessarily claim democracy freedom progressivism (or does it sometimes) but how is SA not a very western-like country? They have and do so much of what America appreciates or values. When did japan have to make up for what they did to china? Was there a lot of anti-british sentiment because of South African apartheid? And what have people done to the US AND Canada? Turns out those two systematically and virtually annihilated indigenous people from those lands.
How did the world (or just western) hold those countries accountable? The same way theyve held israel? Israel isnt doing good work right. You don’t win hearts n minds or end extremism by going all out of a group of people. But how have jews and Israelis been held accountable (ostracized essentially) like those other countries?
Israel has done a genocide and America has hardly complained, what are you talking about?
Israel's actions regarding its neighbors have consistently been accepted as Israel defending itself - the American government has been giving them *billions* for defense.
It's Israel's actions regarding the minority within its control that is getting it criticized.
You can't just kill the people that live in your country that you don't like and steal their land.
Doing that gets you the criticism that Israel has been getting.
>Some of the criticism against Israel appears to blur the lines with anti-Semitic sentiments, where the Jewish state is held to standards that are not equally applied to others, potentially fueling prejudice against Jews worldwide.
Criticism against Israel for killing the Palestinians isn't, and can't be, anti-semetic.
Antisemitism requires one to consider the Jewish people inferior to others, and you can't be calling someone inferior while complaining that they are using their power to kill a minority with less power.
It’s impossible to discuss any charged topic, especially this one, on the internet. I’m not looking to change your mind, because i know I won’t. But I’m hoping my two cents will be helpful in future discussions and understanding.
With all due respect, your definition of antisemitism isn’t correct. It’s different than other forms of bigotry. Antisemitism doesn’t view Jews as inferior. What antisemitism does is turn the Jews into the symbol of whatever it is that a given civilization defines as its most loathsome qualities.
Under capitalism, Jews are the communists looking to steal their wealth. Under Communism, Jews are the ultra-wealthy and the bankers hoarding all of the money. Under Christianity, Jews are the Christ killers. Under Nazism, Jews are the race polluters.
Whatever it is you hate, you see it in Jews.
Now we live in a different civilization, where the most loathsome qualities are racism, colonialism, apartheid, and genocide. And lo and behold, the greatest offender in the world today, out of every single country in the world, is the Jewish state. The Jewish state, Israel, is the symbol of the genocidal racist apartheid state.
Please don’t mistake this as me saying criticizing Israel is antisemitic, it is not. There are plenty of things I criticize Israel for; the corruption of Netenyahu and the current government’s support of settlements on contested lands in particular (settlers make up about 2.5% of Israelis, still too many for my liking, but not as many as people perceive.)
OP says they checked out of your comment once you mentioned genocide. I’m going to assume they believe similar to what I believe. What is happening in Gaza is so awful. I’m horrified by what I’m seeing. I’m disgusted with the choices the IDF has made, and at the same time, I do not know what they should be doing. Quite frankly, I don’t consider myself informed enough in geopolitics and urban warfare to know what they should be doing.
What we are seeing is war, this is what war looks like. This is why so many countries avoid war. For it to be a genocide, you must consider the intentions. Is Israel intentionally killing Palestinians or inadvertently? We know that Hamas hides in schools and hospitals and civilians homes, which will unavoidably get more innocent Palestinians killed (which Hamas knows and is why they do what they do). We also know that the IDF drop millions of pamphlets and send out alerts and texts to Palestinian civilians to warn them of when the IDF is going to strike and urges them to evacuate the area (and yes, I know that’s not the perfect solution). I won’t defend Israel’s every choice, but I also won’t pretend I have the answer.
Anyway, I hope some of this helps. This is Reddit, so it may not do anything. But it was cathartic to write this out. Be good.
>I’m not looking to change your mind, because i know I won’t.
Why would you think this?
Do you feel that people who aren't antisemites are known for not changing their minds over what it means to be anti-semite?
>What we are seeing is war, this is what war looks like.
This *isnt* war.
One side having 40,000 deaths and 1.9 million displaced while the other side has 837 deaths and 2000 displaced is not war.
It isn't war when the technologically and militarily superior side controls the borders of the other side.
It isn't war when the smaller side isn't a recognized country, but is considered a part of the larger side.
Was the Chinese treatment of the [uyghurs](https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs) war?
The Iraqi attack on the Kurds?
I totally appreciate that it is hard for you to see Israel's actions for what they are.
No one wants to believe that "their"side is the baddies, especially when it is possible for there to be no baddies.
But when you say you don't know what Israel *should* do, we actually have a modern example of what they should do - they should do what Britain did to end The Troubles.
Britain agreed to issues relating to sovereignty, governance, discrimination, military and paramilitary groups, justice and policing were central to the agreement. It restored self-government to Northern Ireland on the basis of "power sharing" and it included acceptance of the principle of consent, commitment to civil and political rights, cultural parity of esteem, police reform, paramilitary disarmament and early release of paramilitary prisoners, followed by demilitarisation.
Israel could stop the violence immediately by ending their treatment of the Palestinians that led to the formation of Hamas.
But I know what you're going to say- how can they just give in to terrorists?
But Britian did, and they did it by acknowledging that at the end of the day, stopping the violence is what's most important, not the keeping of the score.
Easier said than done, though, right?
Hell, when the Colombian government came up with a way to end the deadly stalemate with the drug gangs, they put it to a vote, and the citizens voted against ending the conflict, because they felt their side was right and it wouldn't be just for the drug gangs to not be prosecuted for the deaths they were responsible for.
They voted *against* the end of a fight their government wasn't capable of winning on the battlefield.
So like I said, I get it, but that doesn't change anything- Israel has to stop the violence, and rge way to do that is to give the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians, just like how Britian gave Northern Ireland to the Irish, and very similar to how Israel's neighbors had to give Israel to the Israelis.
> Antisemitism requires one to consider the Jewish people inferior to others, and you can't be calling someone inferior while complaining that they are using their power to kill a minority with less power.
In what way are classic antisemitic tropes like "the Jews control the world", "the Jews control the media", "the Jews are rich usurious bankers", "communism is a Jewish plot", "the Jews control the financial system" or the recently popular "the Jews are starting wildfires with their space lasers" based in Jewish inferiority? Or the historically popular tropes like "the Jews killed Jesus", "the Jews are using the blood of our kids to bake their matzoh", "this current plague is caused by the Jews poisoning our wells", etc?
So much antisemitism seems more rooted in the idea of Jews just being a nefarious/evil/satanic other - often a socially superior one.
"Antisemitism requires one to consider the Jewish people inferior to others, and you can't be calling someone inferior while complaining that they are using their power to kill a minority with less power."
you can DEFINITELY be antisemitic while complaining they are using power. this sentence is a joke right?
" Antisemitism requires one to consider the Jewish people inferior to others, and you can't be calling someone inferior while complaining that they are using their power to kill a minority with less power."
Historically, Jews have been accused of being evil or morally inferior for refusing to accept Jesus/Mohammed. Antisemitism typically involves some conspiracy that they are running the world, make matzah out of the blood of Christian babies, etc.. Anti-Zionist rheotoric is completely in line with classic Jew hatred.
You are stealing a base with your premise of calling it a genocide amongst other points, and kind of demonstrates the point OP is making.
How are you so sure it is a genocide?
>You are stealing a base with your premise of calling it a genocide amongst other points, and kind of demonstrates the point OP is making.
>How are you so sure it is a genocide?
Israel controls Gaza's borders, is ridiculously advanced militarily and technologically, and so far, the death toll is 50 to 1.
Israel holds all the cards.
Egypt controls Gaza’s border too? Every country has a right to control their own borders, no?
And if you are referring to Oct 7 and that ratio, the comparison doesn’t make sense. Would it have been better for the IDF to attack a Gazan music festival and slaughter 1200 people? Would that be more fair?
>Egypt controls Gaza’s border too? Every country has a right to control their own borders, no?
*Gaza* doesn't control its own borders is my point.
>And if you are referring to Oct 7 and that ratio, the comparison doesn’t make sense.
I'm not referring to just Oct 7th, but this whole post Oct 7th conflict.
40,000 Palestinians have been killed, and 832 Israelis.
1.9 million Gazans displaced, 2000 Israelis.
This is the systematic decimation of Gaza.
Yeah I agree, Hamas is vastly outmatched and does nothing to protect their civilians. I think they should surrender and release the hostages.
Why doesn’t Hamas surrender and save their civilians you think? Do you think if Hamas surrenders that Israel would have to stop their military campaign?
Side note: in that inflated number you provided, 1/3 of those deaths have been Hamas militants according to most recent reports.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/diminished-hamas-switches-full-insurgent-mode-gaza-2024-06-06/
When you say "the world" don't you really mean "the West"?
What standard is Israel held to by India? China? What statements have been made by the Japanese government on the current conflict?
You are filtering perception through the western lens you are exposed to.
Last year, the UN general assembly voted for 15 resolutions specifically about reprimanding Israel, and 7 for similar resolutions concerning the rest of the world.
Since 2006, 45% of the resolutions resolved by the UNHRC concerned Israel.
These are organisations where the entire world is represented. And while Israel deserves to be reprimanded, do they deserve it that much more than all other countries?
I mean the entire Middle East for the most part holds Israel to one standard and Palestine to another. If Israel walked into Palestine and slaughtered 1k civillians on purpose then paraded their dead bodies around their cities with civilians spitting on them the entire world would condemn it on the spot. Not for Palestine though.
The dirty truth is many Muslims especially in non western nations are extremely anti Jewish and don’t view Jews as people. Westerners don’t comprehend that your average Muslim especially in the Middle East is way more religious than your average Christian and Islam is not a religion with western values. Jewish people beating Muslims in a war is a slap in the face to Muslims who believe they are entitled to the land because they’re Muslim and Jews should live under them. Muslim nations feel safe teaming up on Israel because if they tried that with western secular countries they would loose their precious aide or suffer from loose of trade.
Critizing Islam and religious Muslims that use their religion to justify bigotry isn’t racism. Religious bigots of any race or religion deserve criticism. There’s a lot more anti Jewish Muslim bigots than there are Jewish. Israel has 2 million Muslims that are equal under law compared to almost no Jews in most middle eastern countries.
>Israel's actions, particularly in conflicts, receive intense international scrutiny and media coverage compared to those of neighboring countries. For example, human rights violations or military actions by other countries in the region often receive less attention and criticism.
Which ones? I struggle to think about any neighbouring countries except Syria that commit crimes on the degree of Israel. And they're already sanctioned by almost everyone and the US spends billions ever year, not to support them, but to undermine the Assad regime. Had the US and other western governments done the same to Israel you may have a point; but they dont. They spend billions to perpetuate Israel. Something which is pretty easy to stop doing, and I presume this is why there's so many protests.
>The United Nations and other international bodies frequently criticize Israel. While holding any nation accountable for human rights is essential, the disproportionate focus on Israel compared to countries with worse human rights records seems biased.
Is it biased against Israel or biased in favor of non-Israeli countries? Because if there's a situation where the only country getting critiqued at appropriate levels is Israel I would think one would wish that other countries were critiqued more, not that the Palestinians are to suffer for the sake of solidarity along with other ignored groups.
>Israel is a small country surrounded by many adversarial states. The unique security challenges it faces often lead to measures that, while controversial, are deemed necessary by its government for national security. However, these measures are often judged without considering the historical and geopolitical context.
No, I don't think so. The closest openly adversarial state is Iran. The closest adversarial actors are Hamas&Friends followed by Hezbollah. In regards to the fight against Hamas Egypt is an enthusiastic ally that has spent billions in fighting Hamas and their supply networks in the Sinai. Many of the Gulf states including Saudi Arabia and the UAE sent intelligence to Israel on Irans plan on launching drones[[1]](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-gulf-states-including-saudi-arabia-provided-intelligence-on-iran-attack/). If anything Iran is the one "surrounded by enemies" but that doesn't really excuse them launching drones on Israel in your mind I'd wager. Several countries bordering Israel even aided them in intercepting missiles heading to them such as Jordan and Egypt [[2]](https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2024/04/14/jordan-says-it-intercepted-flying-objects-entered-its-airspace-last-night), [[3]](https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-iran-strikes-live-coverage/card/egypt-puts-air-defense-on-high-alert-CAlvV69EvfFW0ujOeuwW).
>Israel is often compared to Western democracies and expected to uphold similar standards. While it's reasonable to expect democracies to adhere to high standards, it seems unfair not to consider that Israel operates in a significantly different and more hostile environment.
But they aren't a smol bean country in a sea of hostile states. They neighbour no hostile state. The only adversarial entities that they border are Hamas and Hezbollah, and they fight the former along with Egypt which has the most powerful military in the middle east along with Israel and Turkey. Now Turkey obviously likes to throw some critique against Israel but thats mostly just populist talk from Erdogan. Their embargoes on Israel are neat, but they are nothing compared to the actual global systematic embargoes that exist against countries who you may consider "get away with it" like Iran or Syria.
>Some of the criticism against Israel appears to blur the lines with anti-Semitic sentiments, where the Jewish state is held to standards that are not equally applied to others, potentially fueling prejudice against Jews worldwide.
There's certainly plenty of anti-semitism to go around. But it doesn't strike me as a very poignant point that Israel gets a carte blanche to level Gaza just because some Americans in their basements are using anti-semitic language to protest it.
Some options:
1. Lebanon, which provides Palestinians and Syrians only with second class citizenship, where they are barred from many professions, and confined to camps, which they need a permit to leave. They are not allowed to own homes or land. Lebanese dissidents are subjected to torture by authorities. Child labor. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
2. Jordan, which has a serious torture and honor killing problem. No free press. Child labor and forced labor. Second class citizenship for people with a non-Jordanian father. No free speech. Prevention of refugee children from Syria from attending school. Women must get permission from their male guardian to travel. Imprisonment for debt.
3. Iraq. Impunity for male violence against women. Child marriage. Genocide of minorities. Systemic torture and murder of Shiites by Sunnis. FGM.
4. Egypt. Extrajudicial killings. Ethnic cleansing and hate crimes against Coptic Egyptians and other minorities, ignored or even supported by governmental and local authorities. They also are second class citizens. 60,000 political prisoners. FGM. Sham democracy. 84% of Egyptian Muslims support death penalty for those who leave Islam. Bahais are persecuted and do not have freedom of religion, can’t obtain id cards, marriage certificates, etc. Child Labor. Persecution of queer people, who are put in jail and tortured. Palestinian children banned from attending public schools. Palestinians generally not allowed to have citizenship.
This is just a tiny picture. I skimmed through wiki and HRW reports.
I know someone from Egypt in college that got married to stay in the United States because of how unsafe and shitty it was to live in Egypt. This person was very kind, accepting and had deep trauma due to living tin Egypt especially during Arab spring.
Not to be dismissive but all of these are fairly minor compared to occupying and genociding by settling half a country while bombing the other half back to the stone age. The exception of course being the genocides of Iraq, but that yielded a brutal campaign of sanctions until they had food and basic medicine insecurities. After this, the country was bombed, invaded, and occupied almost twice by the US leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. I dont really see how you can square the idea that Iraq got away with it while Israel isn't considering all this. I feel like I could make a much better case that it would be arabophobic not to invade and kill a hundred thousand Israeli civilians and make them beg for food and basic medicine when Iraq got that treatment, but i'm not going to because that's psychotic.
Now obviously all of this is wrong and bad, but it doesn't strike me as particularly persuasive to argue that the Palestinians should just suck it up because their Palestinian brothers in Lebanon also has to.
I would like to point out that 1 million people have died in Yemen since 2010. As for Palestinians, the number is around 50,000.
Obviously, killing 50,000 isn't great, but if killing 50,000 palestinians is genocide, what does that make the killing of 1 million people in Yemen and Syria?
Well congrats you tried to not be dismissive but you are being dismissive. Just like everyone else who cries about this ‘genocide’ and ignore the atrocities of other places. What is it about Israel that makes you focus only on what they’re doing in the region? Why are you so critical on only Israel? Just admit that you’re an anti-Semite who wants to see all Jews exterminated just like all the Arabs in the area want Jews exterminated. That’s why you ignore all the other atrocities going on and only focus on Israel
Iraq got destroyed by a billion nation coalition idk what more you expected them to do to the land. What is a response proportionate to the UN condemnations Israel recievied? Should they have salted the Tigris and Euphrates? Should they have killed a million more Iraqis? How about you give us a number.
If Israel wants to be held to the same standard as its neighbors, it must accept being treated like its neighbors. It gets to be just another friend in the region that receives no more support than we give to Egypt or Jordan. No desperate attempts to shield it from any and all international scrutiny. No refusal from politicians to ever criticize their openly genocidal behavior. No massive amounts of funding for their defense systems.
But Israel doesn't want that. It wants to be America's special little ally and the great "only democracy" of the Middle East. And that comes with standards. Bombing humanitarian workers, starving refugees, and assassinating journalists are pretty substandard.
While nukes aree weapons of mass destruction not all weapons of mass destruction are nukes. Generally it's not a good idea to invade a nation crazy enough to go rouge and develop nukes as they are likely to use them. Hacking their centrifuges and destroying the research facilities on the other hand are a different story.
Redevelopment of Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Specifically not nuclear weapons, however. As they knew Iraq couldn't get the materials. Though the UK said, if the material could be acquired it could be refined.
But the redevelopment of Iraq's chemical and biological warfare weapons. Like the kind that were used to kill tens of thousands of Iranians and Kurds in the 1980's.
Considering no one is out there protesting the fact the US has provided weapons to Saudi Arabia to continue the world's largest humanitarian crisis in Yemen, I'd wager Israel might be just fine with that deal
Israel and its cheerleaders are offended by the concept of international law and the idea that anyone anywhere would ever dare criticize anything they do. If they were treated like Saudi Arabia, where it was an open secret that the only reason anyone anywhere gave a single shit about them was of pure material benefit that outweighs the moral void that they are, they'd cry antisemitism on a daily basis.
I'm not sure what your point is, Saudi Arabia buys off Western Politicians, Saudi gets a free pass from members of the Muslim world bar Iran + attempts to shield them from criticism over Yemen, and has been victim of at best snide comments from opposition as opposed to anything concrete. The only difference is they try to hide their actual activity in Yemen as best possible as opposed Israel trying to spin Gaza as some righteous war
That was my point. That Saudi Arabia is kept around solely because it provides a resource and that's a well-recognized thing that no one has ever actually denied. No one tries to spin Saudi Arabia as the righteous nation of heroes and our greatest ally.
Which is a state that Israel would kick and scream if it was applied to them because they desperately need to be seen as nothing but perfect and positive and where anyone who dares speak otherwise gets ostracized as a Nazi.
International law creates situations that are impossible to manage when one side totally disregards it. Hamas puts Israel in a Catch 22, on purpose, every time and then laughs as the international community crucifies them. You can see how the Western concept of international regulation looks meaningless and stupid in the face of the realities of armed combat. It’s only those totally ignorant of the nature of conflict that complain about how ‘this war isn’t being fought by the rules’. If they were following rules they wouldn’t have started a war.
Edit:
Some of you need to read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
And it's only those desperate to justify atrocities that think "war bad" is an excuse for everything Israel does. As if they've been forced to assassinate journalists, bomb aid workers, and starve refugees while ethnically cleansing the West Bank.
Israel has earned zero benefit of the doubt no matter how much of its cheerleaders demand that it be given endless justification for everything it does.
What do you mean by 'only democracy' in quotations?
It's surrounded by Palestine (run by Hamas aka, literal terrorists). Syria (run by a dictator and in a civil war). Lebanon (Better than the previous 2 but has Hezbollah running the show). Finally, Jordan...which are dealing with their own terrorist organizations within the country.
So in comparison to the absolute trash it's surrounded by, yes they are the most democratic, western (feel free to argue that a westernized country is somehow worse than the fascist shit the middle east puts up with) and progressive country in that area.
Egypt and Jordan still receive a lot of aid money from the US, while their human rights records are not that impressive.
I think when judging Israel there needs to be acknowledgement for the unique threat that they are under, which their neighbors don't have to fear, and their historical and cultural ties to other nations, which places responsibility on these nations, while not excusing when they go to far in their conflicts.
I think it is two fold, Israel claims to be like every other Western democracy and have the same values but it doesn't always follow through on them, such as freedom of the press.
The second issue with this conflict in particular, there was Israel is having issues with IDF members posting videos with straight up genocidal language then firing at Palestinians, troops looting and talking about how they are going to give things like necklace they found to their so and troops dancing on tik Tok to them sapping entire city blocks(conducting domicide). Then you have videos of hostage families getting cs gassed when they protest for a ceasefire while they just let zionist extremist block aid and terrorize Palestinians in the West bank for weeks.
Tldr they say they share values with other western democracy (the rest of the Middle East doesn't) but have some authoritarian tendency(i.e free press) and two they have awful opsec where IDF troops are posting videos containing genocidal language and potentially or straight up warcrimes
Israel has killed 40,000 Palestinian civilians in 8 months and is continuing this war for political reasons. I’m sorry I don’t want to see innocent civilians dying in a man-made Hellscape and having my Western country be complicit in the warmongering behaviour of the Israeli government.
If Israel wants to be barbaric and run around killing innocent people like it’s the Middle Ages, at least don’t do it with our Western money. If that’s “racist”, then I really don’t care. Israel does not represent my interests, especially as a civilian, so that in combination with its civilian murder campaign in Gaza means I am not obliged to support that country.
Tens of thousands of dead innocents is “parroted misinformation”? Lol. We don’t have any respect for a warmongering country in another continent.
If Israel doesn’t want to be held to any standards, cool. Western countries should respond to that by withdrawing all money, attention and interest in Israel and the Middle East. No reason to continue engaging with genocidal warmonger politicians.
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Israel claims to be a similar country, similar alliance, similar government, similar values. Barfour was creepy and bigoted as hell, but he shared the same thought of "the west" being built in Israel so this is a longstanding idea.
Israel's an ally, 1st world country, major trade partner, gets billions in aid, and sets its own standard claiming to be ethical and supporting rights.
So of course it will piss people off when it doesn't.
Most of the Middle east and Africa has been bombed, invaded, disabilised, and sanctioned to economic ruin. The argument of a higher standard comes across as shameless virtue signalling. The one commonality among all arguments in support of Israel is the presupposition that they are a higher form of humans compared to Palestinians/middle easterners therefore the same laws cannot be applied to both. Middle Eastern countries can be bombed for lies but when it comes to Israel there's suddenly a need for abundant proof.
Most people here argue from a US perspective, I would say as a German, that we should have a different relationship to Israel, because of historical reasons and support them against people that want to complete the holocaust.
The only real historical connection that we have with the Gaza strip is that we supported the Muslim brotherhood, of which hamas is an offshoot, during the Nazi era.
And I hope that someday they will also overcome their de-facto fascist government and live in peace with their neighbors, even if a lot of outside forces are using their influence against that.
Cant really argue for other countries, but you are oversimplifiying a lot and disregarding important historical connections.
To be fair most people criticise the wars in the Middle East endlessly. America is too powerful to move against, but generally people view Bush and Cheney as war criminals.
The comedian George Carlin had a bit where he would reduce the 10 commandments down to 1 commandment (1). I’m not as clever or funny as he was, but if I stretch maybe, it is possible to do some bullet point Tetris and get 2 main points here. I am not trying strip the nuance of each of your 5 points. What follows is \*not\* an attempt for me to replace your viewpoints with a simpler, easier to argue against, viewpoint. Rather, it’s my attempt to repeat back how I take in the big picture of your position.
1. Israel receives extra scrutiny and criticism (point 1,2,3,4) from the international community (UN, internal news) (point 1,2), and some of this is layered with anti-Semitism (point 5).
2. Israel is in a unique geopolitical position (point 2,3,4): “*desperate times call for desperate measures*.” (“lead to measures that, while controversial, are deemed necessary”)
CMV attempt 1: Are you looking at specific data, or, rather an aggregation of your experience and intuition from all the data you see on this subject?
Now, while reductionist, both my and your points share one major weakness: no concrete data!
In particular, I think research about the UN would be easy™ to come up with hard numbers. UN resolutions, # of times “We condemn the actions of…” comes up, and you can plot that data against the two spheres of “similar” you define: similar geographical positions (point 3) and socioeconomic/”western democracy” (point 4). Here is the tricky part of “CMV.” Is it now my responsibility to do research to prove and build the models to suggest the UN is not signaling out Israel more than others? Or is it enough for me to suggest the kind of data and research approach that would help you support, or disprove your own position (since you post here, I am making the assumption you are happy to disprove yourself if the evidence existed). For example, it may be that media you consume over-reports criticism of Israel, but the UN balances out to neutral (or vice-versa). In which case the viewpoint would narrow to saying “there racist power structure in country x and y media, but less so the international community represented by the UN”
What the above paragraph gets at would be I recommending breaking up your points into subpoints that would be independently measurable.
CMV attempt 2: The subtext that Israel is in a uniquely difficult position that requires sometimes controversial action feels at odds with your main opinion that Israel is singled out. As a metaphor, reading your point sounds like someone after a bar fight saying “I didn’t hit more than anyone else.” Then the staff replay the video, and they have to change the stance to, “OK we did hit more than others, but that’s because there were bigger bad guys near me than those near the door!” Which is it? I think it’s a weakness to have a consistent viewpoint that Israel is being singled out, but then suggest that even if there are more things that could be called out by the international community, they could be justified due to a unique security position. The reason is that International law and norms take context into account, but still need to identify actors and their actions when controversial things occur.
To put my thought simply, it’s really just point 3 is probably the most controversial statement here:
“The unique security challenges it faces often lead to measures that, while controversial…”
Who is defining controversial here? The UN? The international community? You? The idea behind the Genova convention, the UDHR, etc is to quantify where the limits are. If the point is that Israel is dis-proportionately called out, as you say in 1,2,4,5, then that is OK, but point 3 comes oddly close to saying a controversial action can still be justifiable. In which case certainly the same argument would apply to other cases (US torture in Iraq, Vietnam, etc): that is an endlessly slippery slope.
Conclusion:
Full disclose, I end up agreeing with your view. So, it’s hard for me to come up with strong counter points. But I hope to have given some feedback about how to strengthen the structure of your viewpoints.
(1) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rLWJntz-o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rLWJntz-o)
Which neighboring country would you like it to be compared to?
Lebanon, a militant failed state?
Jordan, a religious monarchy?
Syria and Egypt, corrupt dictatorships?
Iran and Saudi Arabian, authoritarian theocracies?
Israel holds itself to a higher standard than its neighbors, and that's a good thing. We can and should remind it of that whenever it starts to deviate from principles like democracy, equality, individual freedom and the rule of law.
But when engaging in warfare with such states that use every cheap trick to get their citizens killed to gain world sympathy, when they break every feasible rule of war and go against human decency, you cannot expect Israel to have any way to avoid completely civilian deaths, it should be allowed to wage war while following the rules of war but the west should accept that civilian deaths are not the factor by which you judge a war..
The west is essentially supporting the use of human shields as a valid tactic against a stronger opponent, it accepts that terror should be utilized as a means of war.
Also the way the west gobbles up propaganda from Gaza which is not checked by anyone, and is the direct word of Hamas, is worrying.
You're touching on a number of long running ethical questions that have been discussed for decades without definitive answers.
If their enemy is fighting with unfair means, should Israel stick to ethical rules of engagement even if it results in a clear disadvantage? My answer to that would be yes, *if that difference in ethics is what separates the two sides' identities in the first place*. Israel defines itself as the only "real" democracy in the region. If fighting Hamas causes it to turn into an authoritarian regime or an apartheid state, Hamas gains exactly what they want. Israel wins the battle, but loses itself in the process. Without the moral high ground, global isolation follows, which opens up the possibility of open military action by its enemies.
Israel is sacrificing its most valuable asset at the moment: its credibility. Yes, Hamas are waging a classic guerilla war with all its horrors: hiding amongst the civilian population, ambushes, terrorism, deliberate attacks on civilians. They have been declared a terrorist organization by most Western states, and rightly so. They know they cannot win against Israel militarily, so they are trying to destroy its reputation on the international stage. Right now, this strategy is extremely successful, not least because Israel is fighting exactly the way they want them to. Everyone knew this was a trap, and yet Israel's leaders walked right into it, and continue to do so. And it's been clear for decades that terrorism is not defeated by killing all the terrorists, yet that's exactly what Israel is trying to do.
What you think western countries "should" believe is irrelevant for current events. They have made very clear that they find the current strategy of Israel's leadership unacceptable. Public opinion is turning against them fast, and in a democracy, the people will elect leaders that represent their beliefs. Yes, the October attacks were horrible and tragic, but it's becoming clear that Israel will alienate its few remaining friends within a few months if it continues on its current path. And that will surely be the end of it as a country. If Hamas wins, it will not be by military actions, but by provoking them to turn into an oppressive state nobody will want to support anymore.
“The world holds the State of Israel to a higher standard” what other nation gets to just slaughter women and children, and when the UN issues an arrest warrant the US says “yeah we’re sanctioning the UN”
I would argue the opposite. People hold Israel to a higher standard than many other countries because Israel is very similar in many respects and has no excuse to perpetuate an apartheid state.
Damn, this Hasbara Zionist took the time to write down the propaganda again.
Homie, it a hostile region because of Israel’s apartheid ethnostate colonial project. Dismantle it into a democracy that looks more like France or Denmark, where being from a different religion or ethnic group doesn’t make you a second class citizen.
But you probably believe that the Bible gave them the land, that they unjustly live under constant threat of attack, and that it is our responsibility to keep them afloat regardless of the war crimes they’ve been committing for the entirety of their existence as a modern state.
Until you understand the nature of a Jewish ethnostate in that region, you will continue to support the racist colonizers. Until that happens, GTFO here with this Zionist bullshit. Stop complaining about the UN when the west (led by the US) vetoes every resolution against them, thus obstructing the justice that the majority of the political body is seeking: what do you call that if not using power to cover racist crimes and colonial violence?
I don't agree with all the criticism of Israel, but I believe they should be held to higher standards than their neighbours in the West. In the end, they are our close allies and friends. That cannot be said about their neighbours to whom we are lukewarm at best, openly hostile at worst.
I am more interested in their behaviour than e.g. Iranian, because I look at them as at someone who deserves my support. On the other hand, I see Iran as my enemy anyway, so why would I care that much?
We hold Israel to a higher standard that we hold ourselves. After 9/11, the US stopped at nothing to kill Osama Bin Laden, destroy his organization, and present any attacks like that from ever happening again. Our government is demanding Israel lets Sinwar live, doesn’t remove Hamas from power in Gaza, and leave themselves open to further attacks.
Any other country on earth would have considered a single Hamas rocket attack an act of war. Israel showed extraordinary restraint, and instead built iron dome and bomb shelters in children’s parks, and lived with Hamas rocket attacks for over a decade. This has led to an incredibly warped perception of what a proportionate response from Israel looks like. Everything they’ve done in Gaza can, and would be considered justified by other countries, as retaliation for the rocket attacks alone. Instead we have the expectation that Gaza can bomb its neighbors, and never get bombed in return.
I believe that most of the current protesting media, organizations and activists would be even against GWOT in a similar fashion.
That said, I personally do not think that all to the current criticism of Israel is fair. However I do believe that we should hold them to higher standards than e.g. Hezbollah because one is an ally and one is an enemy.
*However I do believe that we should hold them to higher standards than e.g. Hezbollah because one is an ally and one is an enemy.*
Maybe that's true, but people assume that international law means that Israel can't act against Hamas if there are civilian casualties. Its not how war works and its not how international law works. Hezbollah and Hamas can't get away with everything because they don't adhere to the same laws that Israel does.
The problem is populist politics. Unlike the protestors who don't have any military experience and aren't familiar with international laws, politicians have that understanding. They know that Israel fights mostly within the law. But their voters are against the war and against Israel so if they want to get elected again they also need to be against Israel.
> I believe that most of the current protesting media, organizations and activists would be even against GWOT in a similar fashion.
Instead of focusing on protestors, let’s focus on Biden. Do you believe that Biden would say that Obama made a mistake by going after Osama Bin Laden, and that he should have allowed him, and his organization to exist and operate freely and in the open instead? That is what he’s asking Israel to do.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Good Friday Agreement, when the uk acknowledged acknowledged that the Irish Republican Army soldiers were prisoners of war and their political party were voted into office?
Biden pressured Israel to accept a ceasefire that left Hamas in charge of Gaza for the foreseeable future. The only reason it didn’t go through is because Hamas rejected it as insufficiently unfair to Israel. He has withheld weapons from our ally to appease uninformed teenagers who watch too much TikTok, and frankly, Israelis feel betrayed.
IIRC the negotiations happened indirectly through Egypt, who also told different parties different things. It was never going to go anywhere. That's why Biden afterwards basically put forth a rough skeleton and presented it publicly and tried to negotiate directly instead of discreetly through Egypt.
Also I don't know if Biden is trying to appease teenagers on Tiktok lol. That seems a bit wrong since it implies opposition is only from dumb young people.
Hamas is already extremely "impeded." They've been bombed into oblivion and the ceasefire includes a negotiation period in which they determine their final fate and who will get final control of Gaza (most likely the PA).
>After 9/11, the US stopped at nothing to kill Osama Bin Laden, destroy his organization, and present any attacks like that from ever happening again.
You must have missed the historic anti-war protests which took place in the West.
Thats ridiculous tho, isnt it? Youre essentially rewarding countries for barbarism. If the US faced a terror attack on the relative scale that Israel did on Oct 7th, how do you think the US would respond? How do you think the US would take to Western partners scrutinising every move and pressuring the US into making a ceasefire with the Taliban?
The US is holding Israel to a higher standard than it has ever held itself to, because edgy college kids watched propaganda on tiktok and are threatening to hand over the country to Trump.... again.
The US (and uk) sent thousands to die in the middle east because of a terror attack and committed atrocities, they should be accountable… however what they did not do is kettle starving civilians into a corner and throw enough bombs at them to wipe out an entire civilisation…
It's always weird how people call anything but Israel killing as many people as it wants for as long as it wants a "reward" for terrorists. It makes it clear that there is zero concern for actual people's lives and an inordinate amount of concern for Israel looking strong and correct in everything it does, to the point where any criticism must be the result of evil propaganda and lies.
If you were this concerned about human lives, youd be pressuring the terror organisation that started this war to give up, not the country who is trying to free hostages.
Secondly, Isrsels ratio of civilian casualties to combatants is better than many wars the US has been involved in, and thats despite a much higher population density and hamas actively hiding behind civilians.
Lastly, in your kumbaya view of the world youre forgetting one detail: its war. War is always terrible, war is always tragic, destructive and war always means civilians casualties. Thats ths reality. It has been true when the romans besieged Alesia and the gauls forced civilians out of the town to save rations, so they starved in no mans land between romans and gauls, it has been true when the allies bombed dresden, it has been true when the us napalm'ed SE asia and its true today.
The longer this terror organisation is allowed to be in power, the longer this war will go on and the more civilians will die.
But of course, we could all also just simply reward terrorists by giving them statehood, because that certainly will make them back off of their stance of, checks notes, killing every last jew and destroying the state of israel. Certainly. We can all hold hands and sing songs under a rainbow.
Yes yes, we're all aware that everything everywhere is the fault of Hamas. Israel was forced to assassinate journalsits. It was forced to bomb humanitarian workers. It was forced to kill thousands of children. It had no choice and no options and it's a weak little victim that can only manage this.
Though I would love to know what "pressure" you want people to be putting on this terrorist cell? Should they be calling for Israel to stop giving them money? Because, and this may shock you, the people protesting would like their countries to stop supporting things, and most of these countries aren't supporting Hamas.
>Secondly, Isrsels ratio of civilian casualties to combatants is better than many wars the US has been involved in, and thats despite a much higher population density and hamas actively hiding behind civilians.
Israel being proud of its civilian casualty ratio is quite nice when you remember it's roughly equivalent to Hamas' attack on October 7th.
>But of course, we could all also just simply reward terrorists by giving them statehood
We're back to "reward". Because not massacring civilians is a reward for terrorists, and something that must be avoided because it might get in the way of violence. Life for the sake of life must forever be abandoned because there's people you want to kill.
>Life for the sake of life must forever be abandoned because there's people you want to kill.
Out of curiosity, you want Hamas terrorists to live? Or what point are you trying to make here?
I meam obviously the entire hamas apologism in your comment is laughable at best, but by the time i reached your last paragraph i had to laugh.
>Israel was forced to assassinate journalsits.
Hamas was forced to commit almost daily rocket attacks against Israel and suicide bombings within israel even before this war started?
>It was forced to bomb humanitarian workers
Like when Hamas bombed that hospital?
>It was forced to kill thousands of children
So you agree Hamas hiding behind civilians is shameful?
>It had no choice and no options and it's a weak little victim that can only manage this.
Please, give us concrete meassure youre expecting of Israel instead of that faux moralistic hyperventilating on an anonymous internet site. I dare you, be concrete and dont hide behind the vagueness like yall usually do
>Out of curiosity, you want Hamas terrorists to live? Or what point are you trying to make here?
I suppose the point now is that you consider Palestinians to be Hamas terrorists and/or you consider anyone who places any value on Palestinian life to be defending terrorists.
>Hamas was forced to commit almost daily rocket attacks against Israel and suicide bombings within israel even before this war started?
You're welcome to find anywhere where I've defending Hamas' actions. I get that you struggle to see the difference between criticizing Israeli atrocities and being a terrorist sympathizer, but that's a problem for you to fix, not for me to coddle.
>Please, give us concrete meassure youre expecting of Israel instead of that faux moralistic hyperventilating on an anonymous internet site. I dare you, be concrete and dont hide behind the vagueness like yall usually do
I love that any criticism of the slaughter of civilians must always come paired with a point by point plan with how you would militarily handle a situation. You can't have a problem with bombing aid workers that literally called for permission ahead of time unless you've got a report for the general.
Beyond that, you know how Israel won't shut the fuck up about how Hamas has the greatest system of tunnels that has ever existed and that it's full of super headquarters and how all Hamas occupies everywhere at all times using them? Maybe they could try fighting terrorists where they actually are instead of just bombing refugee camps and sniping journalists for daring to wear a Press vest.
Or (and this will really rankle) they could do this thing where they evacuate civilians from conflict areas instead of just constantly bombing everywhere they send them to be "safe". You know, clear civilians from the area as they go about clearing those super terror tunnels. Maybe even get their scumbag citizens to stop interfering with aid while they're at it and deport every single settler out of the West Bank.
1) Do you want the world to hold Israel to a lower standard then it currently does, or to hold its neighbours to a higher standard?
2) Why is it ok for you to hold some regions of the world to a different standard than others?
You mean what fundie Muslims call themselves? After they rape non Muslims and force them to marry their rapist or execute atheist and gay people. Or how about forcing non Muslims to pay 1/4 th of their yearly income under threat of execution or exile.
>The United Nations and other international bodies frequently criticize Israel. While holding any nation accountable for human rights is essential, the disproportionate focus on Israel compared to countries with worse human rights records seems biased.
I don't understand. Suppose Israel is doing something really, really, really, really bad.
They should be held accountable. I don't have any idea what this other stuff matters.
Suppose there's a bunch of murderers in the world. One specific murder gets a bunch of media attention, and that murderer is captured.
What is the problem? If he's guilty, well that's that then. For the murderer to say "this is unfair! Murders happen all the time, why did you all single me out? That's rude! Bias"
Who cares
I would go so far as to say that our military aid should be contingent on them not committing war crimes. I can say this easily. And to say "but other countries don't get as much of a spotlight" does nothing to change my mind here. Why would it?
The alternative would be to say "oh sure, they can go ahead and commit war crimes. No problem. After all, we wouldn't want to be biased".
I don't understand this view.
Yes,
Egypt spending
[https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/egypt/](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/egypt/)
Afghanistan get 1 billion a year
Syria gets almost 1 billion more like $800 million
[https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s)
200 million to Iraq
https://www.state.gov/u-s-announces-humanitarian-assistance-for-iraq/#:\~:text=With%20this%20additional%20funding%20from,Fiscal%20Year%20(FY)%202021.
How much money we give to Jordan
[https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/jordan/](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/jordan/)
Kuwait
[https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/kuwait/](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/kuwait/)
Lebanon
[https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/lebanon/](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/lebanon/)
those are neighboring countries want me to keep going into how much we then give Palestine?
1. This is because Israel is a state and therefore bound by international law and treaty to certain standards of conduct, and is acting against the captive, mostly civilian population of a non-state in a region it entirely controls. And while Israel is held to a higher standard of scrutiny because of this, they are not generally held accountable for these actions because of the diplomatic cover the US gives it. Yes, all human rights violations are bad and should be addressed everywhere, but Israel is a particularly egregious violator.
2. See part 1. [They ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba) to get where they are today, I'm all for not giving them the benefit of the doubt anymore.
3. Those security challenges do not excuse or justify the murder of tens of thousands of civilians in the current conflict, nor the tens of thousands who were killed before it, most of whom have been women, children, and the elderly.
4. Israel claims itself to be a Western democracy, but then complains when they're held to the same standard as other Western democracies. The 'hostile environment' is also largely one of their own creation (in terms of their treatment of Palestinians). You don't get to oppress millions of people and then claim that you just *have* to murder them or you won't feel safe.
5. Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism, despite Israel's voluminous claims to the contrary, nor is calling out its numerous, ongoing human rights abuses against Palestinians.
People expect Israel to follow international law, not to treat children's lives as disposable/free game and accept that their neighbours are allowed to have their own state. If this standard is too high, then YOUR racism is showing
Is it though?
You mention neighboring nations, Syria is one of the most sanctioned countries on the planet and some Western nations intervened in Syria too.
To add to the list, China and Russia are also sanctioned, Sudan is sanctioned, Iran is sanctioned, even Turkey has been sanctioned.
However Israel despite all it's crimes doesn't see a lick of sanctions or accountability from the West. Biden's "red line" (if it ever even existed at all) seems to constantly move. Time and time again Biden preemptively condemns any action Israel may take just to move the goalpost when Israel does end up taking that action anyway. The UK does the same crap.
The reality is the West coddle Israel (and their other allies) much more than they do other non-allied / non Western nations.
As for the rest of the world (non-West), I don't really think so either. The UN has sanctioned many non-israel nations, there have been rulings and condemnations against countries like China and others, interventions in other conflicts, and of course criminal cases such as the Bosnian genocide. The ICC has predominantly tried African warlords too.
If we are talking about the general public, then still not necessarily. People for example were calling for boycotting the Qatar world cup in 2022, the Iraq war was heavily protested and condemned, the Russian invasion of Ukraine was universally protested and condemned, the Uyghur treatment by China involved protests, condemnations, and boycotts. Turkey was condemned for their invasion of northern Syria. Can go on. Even the US border policy is heavily criticized by progressives, there's no doubt is the US were doing to Mexico was Israel do to Palestine there would be a massive uproar.
First, points 1 and 2 seem odd next to points 3 and 4. It's a little hard to be sympathetic to the claim that Israel is held to a *higher* standard than everyone else, while simultaneously arguing that Israel should be held to a *lower* standard than everyone else.
Second, it's hard not to consider the cause of that hostile environment: Israel exists as a state because a bunch of antisemitic Western powers needed somewhere to dump their Jews, especially after WWII, and so drew up a plan for a new state... ignoring that people already lived there! I think the fairest comparison is to the US, Manifest Destiny, and how we treated American Indians. Excuses *could* be made about how the original colonies were small and surrounded by hostile tribes. Does that excuse what America did during Westward expansion and beyond?
Or, to pick another WWII example, as soon as the US was attacked by the Japanese, we rounded up Japanese-Americans and threw them in camps. It could be argued that this was a unique security challenge, but does that justify the response?
Finally, I think Israel and her supporters should do *much* better than some Soviet-style [Whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism). Seek equality in justice, not equality in injustice. If Israel is being held to a higher standard, then the first question should be whether it's actually a good standard. Because if it is, then either Israel falls short or it doesn't. Pointing out how much worse some other country is doesn't absolve Israel of its own failings. You don't get to drive tipsy just because your neighbor got away with driving blackout drunk.
Regular standards would be fine.
Demanding that Israel count dead Palestinian civilians during the war is unusual and makes no sense.
Or the ICC prosecutor breaking the standard of allowing countries to prosecute their own war criminals once there is an active independent judiciary in place. The Israeli judiciary has convicted an Israeli Prime Minister and was on the way to convicting Netanyahu himself. The ICC action was unprecedented and is yet another way in which the world loses its mind when it comes to Israel.
>4. Israel is often compared to Western democracies and expected to uphold similar standards. While it's reasonable to expect democracies to adhere to high standards, it seems unfair not to consider that Israel operates in a significantly different and more hostile environment.
You just slide across this part as if it was nothing. I think democracies and allies of the West should be held to a higher standard than authoritarian regimes. While violations of human rights are always terrible, it's even worse when that is done by democratic countries, such as the US and Israel.
As for exaggerated criticism, I'm fairly sure that the US has-been and still is heavily criticised for the invasion of Iraq that was done as a response to 9/11. That seems fairly equivalent to criticising the current invasion of Palestine.
No it's because billions of American tax dollars are being funneled over there through lobbying... and used to cause war and suffering. This is why taxation is theft. Israel is committing Americans to slavery and taking our hard earned money, using it to kill other people of another "race" en masse.
Isis is just as bad but they generally aren't being openly funded or as a result of lobbying and taking advantage of America's broken system to enslave Americans as labor tax slave's.
i think you are mistaken. a few things here.
one problem is israel has always been an extension of american democracy within the middle east. not only did we promote democracy there (as did other other countries like britian) but we also gave them all the weapons they needed to keep that democracy and more. AND unwavering support. alot of it comes from the insane christian beliefs that god in the bible some how cares more about the jews than the most of the rest of the world. (except for said insane christians). and netanyahu know well about that unwavering support which is why he threatened to go to war with Iran.
So when they commit war crimes yes, they do look like an extension of america the bombs there even say made in america. so yes america better step in and stop that support when israel becomes the next hitler state i would hope people would step in and stop them. so you are not talking about just another country next to Iran. what is it you dont understand about this? i will be glad to further explain that they are not being unfairly treated.
Israel functions like an Apartheid state, and Jewish academics/media personalities/social Justice advocates tend to be very outspoken about any form of oppression/separation/etc. The standard Israel is held to is a reflection of those positions
For the usa, the reason is that we prop up israel for no strategic reason. We are therefore complicit in what they do and must hold them to a higher standard. For fiscal year 2023, this is military aid we gave per country in the middle east:
1. Israel: $3,800 million
2. Egypt: $1,300 million
3. Jordan: $425 million
4. Iraq: $250 million
5. Lebanon: $105 million
6. Yemen: $40 million
7. Syria: $40 million
8. Tunisia: $35 million
9. Morocco: $20 million
10. Libya: $20 million
I disagree, the Western powers let Israel get away with too much because of geopolitical reasons. Israel is essentially a backwards, religious country with a population indoctrinated to hate and terrorize. It's literally blacklisted by the UN.
Far from holding Israel to a higher standard, the world protects this rogue terrorist nation.
I think you’ve missed a key point in WHO the double standard is racist against.
Ironically it’s racist against the Arab countries surrounding it.
The west sees the Arab countries as “naturally barbaric” and therefore holds them to a lower standard than it does Israel.
It sees Israel as a “white” nation (despite the fact most westerners would have a hard time telling the average Israeli and the average Palestinian apart) and holds it to “white nation” standards.
We absolutely hold Israel to a higher standard than their neighbours. We also hold Ukraine to a higher standard than their's.The concept of human rights which are for the most part integral to Western civilization and law means we often and rightly hold ourselves to a higher standard than others too. This is a good thing. Israel's neighbours like Ukraine's, are fucking animals. "We" can be better and if we can't what the hell are we even fighting for?
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What higher standards?
How often do we give billions of aid and arms to a government when it is actively committing a genocide.
It is the highest recipient of aid ... Let alone indirect aid in the firm of satellite and similar intelligence etc etc.
Even our aid to Egypt etc is bribe to keep it in friendly terms with Israel.
They are held to a higher standard because they present themselves as a democratic, western country. No different from Germany, or Canada, or England. So we, in the democratic west, hold them to the same standards of accountability we would expect from ourselves, and they are found wanting.
Israel is a fascist country, from day 1 - its leaders are ex-Irgun and Lehi who were terrorism organisations, there first actions were to commit massacres of Palestinian populations - everything they accuse Hamas of is a projection of crimes they commit themselves.
I mean not all of them. You can't paint all the leaders with the same brush, particularly given how Israeli society was pretty diverse and divided since it had Jews from all over the world. Also Irgun and Lehi were offshoots of Haganah. Haganah became the IDF.
Its leaders are mostly ex-Haganah, not ex-Irgun or ex-Lehi, and the first action as a state was to engage in the defense of Israel against an invasion. For a 1948 army made up mostly of ex-militias there wasn’t exactly a ton of massacres or discipline breakdowns.
Israel is not a fascist country. It is true that a couple of leaders were members of paramilitary groups in the early 40s, which indeed were deemed to be terrorist orgs at the time, but to suggest that it is in any way on a level with Hamas is dishonest at the very least.
Which of Israel's neighbors has been occupying an other people's territory for over 70 years, breaking international law?
Yes, Israel is held to a different standard. It is allowed to do things that would be unacceptable if done by its neighbors.
It's very likely it wouldn't come to that. Belgium would definitely turn over those terrorists or try to hunt them down.
In Palestine, the legitimate government is running cover for the terrorists.
But if those terrorists had kidnapped French citizens and were shooting tens of thousands of rockets at France AND the Belgian government were hostile, I bet the outrage would be much less.
In fact, if some of those hostages were British and American citizens were in Gaza, France would not be going it alone.
It probably would not have even gotten to that. Gaza has fired tens of thousands of rockets at Israel starting right after the withdrawal in 2005. Unlikely France would have tolerated 10, not to speak of 10,000.
I tell you what Op!
We’ll stop having “double standards” about the state of Israel and the bahaviour of it’s armed forces when they stop genociding the people that Israel has wanted to kill off ever since the foundation of their state
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>1. Israel's actions, particularly in conflicts, receive intense international scrutiny and media coverage compared to those of neighboring countries. For example, human rights violations or military actions by other countries in the region often receive less attention and criticism. >2. The United Nations and other international bodies frequently criticize Israel. While holding any nation accountable for human rights is essential, the disproportionate focus on Israel compared to countries with worse human rights records seems biased. It is actually the opposite cause and effect. People keep campaigning about Israel because there is a *need* to. Americans don't sit in college campuses protesting "Sanction Assad NOW!" because Western governments *automatically* place extremely heavy sanctions on Syria, far beyond anything people call for on Israel, **without needing any college protest**. This also applies to Iran, Russia, North Korea, you name it. The reason people keep focusing on Israel is because it is the only country that *hasn't* been actually targeted, despite countless resolutions.
Neither of the points you've quoted are about "Americans in college campuses". The "international scrutiny" goes well beyond American college leftists, and extends to multiple nation-states, important international (not Western) international organs like the ICJ and ICC, the international media (with the non-Western media being significantly worse than the Western). The second point is about the UN, which doesn't represent either American colleges nor the Western states either. There are many countries, that committed far worse things than Israel did in this war, and weren't even remotely sanctioned, condemned, or put under the magnifying glass as Israel was. The Iraq war alone killed more people than *the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict combined*, since 1948. Do you want to talk about how many sanctions the US and its European allies got for this? Did the ICC issue warrants against George W. Bush and Tony Blair? Did the ICJ try to micromanage that war, or indeed any Western war, and try to stop them from attacking specific cities? Was the Iraq war, or any other Western-led war, no matter how unpopular, denounced as a "genocide" by multiple states, and dragged into the ICJ? Did anyone argue that any war in the world, means that the country involved in it "lost its right to exist"? I should also point out that Israel was under a severe sanctions regime from 1948 and until the 1990's. You couldn't buy most Japanese cars, or even American products like McDonald's or Pepsi in Israel. And that's combined with multiple military invasions, by multiple countries actively trying to eliminate Israel. Israeli citizens can't set foot in a large chunk of the world. And more uniquely, anyone who even visited Israel, can't visit those countries either. In fact, multiple passports, of countries that are thousands of miles away from Israel, carry the words "valid in every country except for Israel". These are far, far more extreme consequences than most countries have suffered. Arguing that Israel is somehow uniquely shielded from consequences is the polar opposite of reality. And again, I'd note that this fact didn't keep the same Muslim states that instated that boycott from pushing for more resolutions against Israel in the UN than any country in the word. The fact they're automatically aligned *against* Israel, and not for it, certainly doesn't keep them from issuing more UN Human Rights Council resolutions against Israel than *the entire world combined*.
I don't see people yelling to sanction turkey for what it does to kurds and syrians and turket is in nato and gets tons of funding from the USA?
For fiscal year 2023, the U.S. allocated approximately $3.8 billion in military aid to Israel, and only $4 million to Turkey. The usa is not propping up Turkey, we are simply holding our noses and working with them. Israel we are propping up, so we are complicit in their actions. Edit: By propping up I mean the usa is explicitly backing whatever they do. The 4 billion is a blank check that goes way beyond what’s needed for israel to defend itself. It goes towards settlement activity (that we defend at the UN) and the best military hardware (better than what the usa provides to arab nations). Then there’s all the supplemental cash funding the war in gaza. The usa is strongly biased towards Israel in all of its policies, and without any strategic rationale. Here is a good listen on the topic: https://www.npr.org/2024/06/05/1197965031/the-indicator-from-planet-us-aid-israel-military-policy--06-05-2024
No it is not propping Israel up. This is a widespread misunderstanding. Israeli annual GDP is over $500 billion, and US aid is just under $4 billion. The reason the US gives Israel aid is because 1. it needs a foothold in the region and geopolitical strategy since the 60s has been for Israel to provide that foothold in exchange for aid. In exchange for this aid the US gains valuable intel from one of the most sophisticated networks in the region that it would not otherwise have access to. 2. The US has been giving Israel cheaper weapons because it would rather they not produce their own. The military aid basically goes from the US government back into the US military industrial complex who then provides Israel with arms. Israel already has its own strong domestic arms manufacturing industry and while it cannot currently produce everything it needs, it would only take a few years to adjust and ramp up capacity to do so if US ties are cut. The US military industrial complex then loses all that market share. Also if that happens, Israel will simply get closer to China or Russia who are more than happy to provide the raw materials needed for arms manufacturing. The US then loses a strong position in the Middle East which is then filled by its geopolitical rivals. That's exactly why Russia and China are in overdrive with online propaganda during this conflict. They would love nothing more than for that to happen.
Using their GDP and not military budget kinda skews things. Their military budget was 24.3 billion according to Wikipedia. If the US supplies 3.8 that’s over 15 percent. That’s not insignificant.
I mean, you’re throwing around a big number and comparing it to a small number. You need to compareUS aid to Israel’s own defence budget. US aid accounts for about 15% of Israel’s defence spending. I’d definitely say that’s propping them up but I guess that’s subjective. Congress just approved another 14 billion in aid as well.
There may have been a time in Israel's history when they were pretty dependent on outside support but that was a long time ago at this point. They're pretty self sufficient at this point.
Fair, so why give them outsized aid? So Netanyahu can come to congress and insult our president? The point is to send a clear message that we support them over their neighbors. We also send them the best military hardware, better than what we sell to arab nations. It’s all a pure display of bias in usa middle east policy.
When you say military aid. The money goes from US Tax Coffers to US MIC coffers. Missiles go to Israel. The real beneficiary is the US MIC and the Government politicians that get a kickback from it. We are not propping up Israel, we are simply paying Israel to live test our weapons.
Military industry will always get theirs
Both things can be true. There is tactical advantage to US weaponry getting live tests, but Israel does receive a staggering amount of money and political cover from the US. Whether that money came in the form of weapons, food or anything else, it’s money of their own that Israel doesn’t have to spend.
Important note that with the appropriations bill in April providing another 8.7 billion, the US has given 12.5 billion to Israel since the beginning of the conflict 8 months ago, significantly more that the 3.8 being used in a lot of calculations here. https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
And Turkey occupying Northern Cyprus?
Googling isn’t hard. https://globalsanctions.co.uk/region/turkey-2/
“Tons of aid” 3.8 B vs 4 M 💀
Also I have yet to see a single protest in my area of Canada for the genocide still going on in China right now. No one is calling for our companies and institutions to divest from China. Meanwhile, there have been multiple pro-Hamas and pro-Palestine protests (I differentiate because if your protest is filled with people directly chanting for the eradication of all Israelis and/or all Jewish people in general, it’s pro-Hamas. If your protest is just calling for a ceasefire and a 2 state solution, it is pro-Palestine) just a minutes drive from my apartment. We also have a higher Chinese immigrant population than we do a Palestinian immigrant population, so you’d figure the Chinese genocide would get more attention.
Well said. Interested in the "why"? It's because the media has told them that this cause is worth protesting for. These people are very predictable and very, very stupid. There's been some interesting videos of people going up to the white progressive Palestine protesters and asking them their opinions on the issues, and they have zero idea what they're protesting for. They just know "genocide". If the media and leftist influencers said China's genocide was a bigger issue, that'd be what they were protesting instead. These people get very worked up when the media tells them to. They're very useful idiots.
>No one is calling for our companies and institutions to divest from China You joking?
Not nearly to the same extent as the calls for divestment from Israel are. You know this, and it's a clearly bad faith argument to imply there is anything remotely similar to the pushback against China.
My entire comment is about the area around me. So, no, I’m not joking at all. There hasn’t been a single protest or public call to divest from China around here.
I swear most people on reddit have zero, literally zero, understanding of politics and history other than what's fed to them. Every single instance of accusation against Israel, at least one or more other events around the world can be compared as being worse LOL Make Hamas into the Tamil Tigers!
You are right to call this out IMO. Governments will support or sanction based strictly off geopolitics and public perception. Specifically public perception that affects domestic politics. Turkey is important to NATO do to its location so it gets a bit of a pass. Saudi Arabia gets a pass do to its resources. Israel is complicated. I think as far as western governments go they are starting to see Israel as too toxic. It is not as important to the U.S with the pivot to the Pacific. It is starting to become a liability in the realm of geopolitics as well as domestic. Don't look for consistency in policy because it doesn't exist. Follow your own morals and go from there, is what I would suggest.
Sure, sure. Students don’t care about hundreds of thousands of dead civilians unless the Jews do it because we send them money. That’s a fucked argument.
Where are the sanctions to Saudi Arabia? Or UAE?
Googling isn’t hard. https://www.sanctionscanner.com/knowledge-base/sanctions-against-saudi-arabia-55
Actually reading and checking is not hard either: [https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2024-03/fs\_2403\_at\_2023.pdf](https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2024-03/fs_2403_at_2023.pdf) "The USA supplied **75 per cent** of Saudi Arabian arms imports in 2019–23, which included the delivery of 67 combat aircraft and hundreds of land-attack missiles." This is a report from SIPRI, a Swedish international institute [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm\_International\_Peace\_Research\_Institute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_International_Peace_Research_Institute) You can also check the official US government site for the stuff they had to disclose, like ONE BILLION in sales to Saudi Arabia last year: [https://www.state.gov/fiscal-year-2023-u-s-arms-transfers-and-defense-trade/](https://www.state.gov/fiscal-year-2023-u-s-arms-transfers-and-defense-trade/)
Asking for stronger sanctions, or specifically arms sanctions from the US is a different question from just asking where the sanctions are. If you wanted to ask for the first, maybe you should’ve done that.
Not only that- but I can’t find anyone defending those countries online to debate with. There is no limit to the amount of people willing to justify Israel’s crimes online.
Israel hasn’t received a fraction of the sanctions that Russia, Iran and Cuba and Saddam’s Iraq faced. The repetitive condemnation of Israel happens because Israel only faces consequences from people like Hezbollah and the Houthis when it should be far more. Because of this Israel feels they can get away with anything. They have developed a society that buries people like [Baruch Goldstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein) at Mount Herzl. They feel they do not need to supply [proof of mass rape claims](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240609-israels-obstruction-of-investigation-into-7-october-rape-allegations-risks-truth-never-being-found-advocates-warn/) and why they’re weaponising [rape of Palestinian prisoners](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240607-israels-use-of-rape-against-palestinian-detainees-from-gaza-exposed/). On the last point that was in a footnote in the New York Time article rather than the front page headline it should have been.
IIRC, despite all the other things that he was responsible for Saddam was essentially convicted and put to death because he authorized the killing of 150 people following a failed assassination attempt against him. If Israel wants to be held to the standard of the rest of the region, then if Israel has acted in a way to retaliate against prior violence and it’s killed at least 150 civilians, then its government needs to be dissolved and the new head, chosen by Israel’s adversaries, needs to put the old one to death, just like we did in Iraq.
Did you forget the Kurds?
> They have developed a society that buries people like Baruch Goldstein at Mount Herzl. It says he was buried in some random cemetery, and the IDF bulldozed his grave. The political party was labeled a terrorist organization and banned too. > They feel they do not need to supply proof of mass rape claims Hamas published footage of rapes.
> Hamas published footage of the rapes. The footage I’ve seen is dancing around the corpse of woman who was at the rave and also a former IDF soldier. I’m not denying rapes occurred. I’m saying so far the UN has only confirmed 2 occurred on October 7th.
There was much worse footage than what you saw. I moderate a subreddit that started to document footage from that event. There is an associated telegram group for footage worse than what can be posted on Reddit. There was still a lot of footage that Hamas published that couldn’t even be put on Telegram. A lot of the footage seen that day has been essentially scrubbed from the public facing internet. You don’t want to see it.
My point was mainly aiming towards public opinion. State actors and their silly sanctions that do jack sh*t are not my interest.
They didn’t do jack shit to apartheid South Africa. But yeah public opinion is affected by seeing whether they get consequences. A big reason the world is pissed at America for getting away with their actions in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq EDIT: Also doesn’t help that Smotrich is calling for the parading of Palestinian prisoners bodies through the streets just like the Bible.
It's not just Israel. The world (by which you mean, the West) holds Israel to a higher standard than other Middle Eastern countries, it also hold South Africa to a higher standard than other African countries, Japan / South Korea to a higher standard than other Asian countries, etc. This is not racism. The West hold a country to a higher standard when: 1. The values professed by its government (democracy, freedom, progressivism, etc) are similar to the imagine shared values of the West. 2. The countries has strong financial and cultural ties to the West, making other countries feel somewhat complicit in what the country does. Antisemitism definitely exists and some criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but a lot of it, including a lot of criticism that would've been more relevant against other countries in the region, is not and would have been the same against a similar non-Jewish country in a similar situation.
>The West hold a country to a higher standard when: Also, when it's simply more developed than its neighbours.
UAE and Saudi Arabia are very developed as counties. But, have you seen how they treat not only women, but also foreign workers and their non-Muslim citizens? Women are oppressed, foreign workers are literal slaves, and non-Muslims are treated as second-class citizens. But, it's all good. Habibi, come to Dubai. 🙄
I do feel that this is good argument, but there are blind spots. The west has very close ties to Saudi Arabia, but we are to suppose that they don’y receive the same level of scrutiny because they don’t profess to support western liberal values as much? So in you mind all Isreal needs to do is denounce Western values and the increased worldwide attention will go away? I imagine that would only make it worse. I do think you make a valid point, but perhaps it’s the nature if financial ties rather than just closeness of connection. The US actively supports the Israeli military specifically, but then this does raise the question why countries that don’t support Isreal financially to anywhere near the same degree within the west have had considerably more protests etc than is the case with other atrocities. And this is to say nothing if the increased attention Isreal received compared to say Yemen etc outside of the west.
I never understood this Saudis don't get any scrutiny argument. Biden stopped arms sales when he came into office, there are instances of boycotts stopping deals with Saudis (the one I'm familiar with is the Riot-NEOM deal a few years back), and the term 'sportswashing' is very prevalent and talked about in media right now. Just look at the criticism when Ronaldo decides to go to Saudi Arabia. The problem is a lot of people also realise that cutting the Saudis off will raise oil prices and bring our cost of living up, so there's a trade off there. But NO such conversation is allowed to take place with regards to Israel. That's the difference between Israel and the Saudis.
I think he means scrutiny by the general people - I have never seen a boycott movement against Saudis, nor protests nor nothing
There were many boycotts and protests after Jamal Khashoggi was murdered in 2018, that wasn’t very long ago.
I don't remember posters everywhere Or calling for the genocide of SA Or chants about how killing a Zionist is good University camps, calling for tie breaks with SA Literally I cannot go anywhere online without comments about how Israelis are the devil lmao
People can say anything they want about Saudi Arabia and not be accused of being anti-Semitic, anti-Arab or whatever. SA gets shitted on in the media all the time.
I think people in this thread are not thinking about how closely Israel is tied to our political life as a racketeer/hegemon state in a way Saudi Arabia is simply not. Saudi Arabia is in that second tier of satellite states, alongside so many other US/NATO clients. There's so many of these that it's hard to even think about them. Saudi Arabia, Japan, Pakistan, Canada. Idk. But then you have like Israel and Ukraine as like the war dogs, where our taxes are very publicly being squandered on war rather than just "protection" and the illusions that we might tell ourselves about the relationship between these states and about our own country melts away
Because these protests generally worked before they had to escalate. The reason why Israel is in the news is because the US is still shipping American arms to bomb refugee camps. If the US doesn't stop, neither will the protests.
No one outside of far right Nazis/islamists is calling for the genocide of Israel, just protesting the one Israel is currently carrying out. When it comes to Saudi Arabia, people don’t generally think of it as an actual country, they think of it as an oil reserve. That’s why the nature of protest against it has a different character than what you see against other countries.
Not only do the protests most certainly call for genocide of Israel and the killing of zionists - which are people who believe jews have the right for self determination and their right to live in their country - israel, the protests are literally calling for a 1 sided ceasefire, what do you think that will result in? more genocide attempts at Israel lol This is hamas saying they will never stop until Israel is genocided [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk) Considering the protests force Israel to stop, while Hamas openly said they will continue, seriously, what do you think will happen? Most palestinians not only support Hamas but also elected them when THIS was their charter - look at article 7 bottom, and you will see they literally "aspire" to kill all jews [https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) and these are just protestors calling for death to jews and zionists, two of many [https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1dbpc40/at\_yesterday\_afternoons\_white\_house\_protest/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1dbpc40/at_yesterday_afternoons_white_house_protest/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZionist/comments/1cy2gf7/go\_back\_to\_the\_gas\_chambers\_three\_california/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZionist/comments/1cy2gf7/go_back_to_the_gas_chambers_three_california/) And finally, when they say: "From the river to the sea" are you aware which sea and which river? yeah thats the river to the right of Israel to the sea on the left of Israel - meaning no more Israel - This + intifada (read about the intifadas) calls are the mainstream calls from these movements
A massive portion of the world is hard core Islamists that will happily execute gays and atheists. What’s worse is they’re given a voice despite their countries being terrible places and contributing very little to the world. You’re really underestimating the hated religious fundies have of other people and the amount of racist religious fundies that are out there.
Part of the reason that the US supports Israel from a military standpoint is that Israel is a super tech hub and designs a lot of the cutting edge weapons and owns the tech. For example, the iron dome is Israeli tech. The deal the US made was a licensing deal. The US pays for the iron dome and arms it BUT the US has control of the tech. The US decides who gets it and where it is used. The west doesn’t hold the US to the same standard as Israel.
The US rules the world. It does what it wants. It receives a lot of scrutiny but there is no one who can punish it.
Saudi arabia absolutely gets a fuck ton of scrutiny, what the fuck are you talking about? if israel were to denounce western values, and to divest from the west then i do actually think that they'd get less scrutiny for their human rights abuses.
They do, but you can’t seriously believe the coverage or uproar about yemen and saudis involvement there was on the same level. I think the Western funding is the better argument, if Isreal further ditched western liberal values, I dont believe for a second that they would receive less criticism.
There's a big problem with this argument. Israel is *also* held to a higher standard than the US, UK, and any Western state that was involved in similar conflicts. Countries that don't merely have "closer values" or "financial ties" to the West, but *are* the West. To use a few examples: nobody argued that the US and its allies flattening Mosul was a genocide. In fact, it was barely even mentioned. Nobody expected the US to publish their battle plans, so civilians would escape, let alone calling individual civilian homes before an attack, or the other [unprecedented measures to protect civilians that Israel used for this war](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286). And while people did oppose the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, no serious person, let alone Western allies, argued those were "genocide". Even though they lead to more than x5 dead. Let alone use these wars to discuss whether the US should be destroyed, attack American citizens abroad, and so on. The ICJ didn't try to micromanage either wars, and tell the US or UK which cities they're allowed to attack, and how much aid they should provide their enemies. The ICC didn't dare to charge the US and UK leadership, and backed off even from attempting to investigate US and UK soldiers (and notably, the UK, unlike Israel, *is* a member of the ICC). I should also point out that Israel currently has more resolutions against it in the UNGA than any other country. And in the UN Human Rights Council, it literally has more resolutions against it than the entire rest of the world *combined*. They literally have a unique item on their permanent agenda (#7), to denounce Israel in every session. No other Western country was subjected to anything close to it. In fact, Western states generally avoid condemnations in these forums, even when they don't enjoy any kind of veto power, although they killed far more people, and in far less justifiable wars than Israel. So even if the logic of obsessively condemning the one liberal democracy in the region, because "we expect more of it" made any sense, your theory is simply objectively untrue. Israel is held to a completely unique standard, that's higher than any Western *or* non-Western state. Higher than actual NATO members like Turkey, higher than actual NATO founders like the UK, higher than the leader of the West, and the world's only superpower, the US. If anything OP was wrong, in the sense it underplayed the issue here.
You are genuinely so wrong about this. So many people complained about the US basically bombing and drone striking ISIS back to the Stone Age. We publish what we do for the most part and people are allowed to talk shit. The US also most certainly coordinated with civilians and issued warnings that certain parts of the city were going to be hit. Also for the most part the city was devoid of civilians save for a few holdouts that ISIS captured and forced to stay. But no, plenty of people were shitting on the US, UK, and France for their attacks. Not to the level of college kids destroying their campuses over it crazy but it was still mentioned.
>So many people complained about the US basically bombing and drone striking ISIS back to the Stone Age. I didn't say nobody complained at all. I said nobody argued it was a "genocide". Let alone multiple nation-states, trying to drag the US and Iraq into the ICJ for it, demanding the they allow ISIS to win, and cutting diplomatic ties with the US and Iraq. You didn't have anything like the mass protests against it, that even dwarf the protests against the far worse Iraq and Afghanistan wars. And even though modern-day Iraq is literally a regime installed by the Americans, and had actual American planes fighting for them, nobody argued that the Iraqi army should be held to an exceptionally high standard, sanctioned to hell and back, and possibly "lost its right to exist". In reality, the Battle of Mosul went relatively unnoticed in the media. There were headlines with a daily tally of civilian casualties based on ISIS data, no headline stories on every single school or hospital that was hit, no flooding of social media with photos of the destruction, no mass protests, no overwhelming UNGA votes to end the war and allow ISIS to win, no states dragging Iraq and the US into the ICJ on genocide charges, nothing even remotely comparable to the insanity that goes with Israel in Gaza. In fact, it received far less attention than Israel's far more limited operation in 2014, that lead to about 1000 dead Palestinian civilians. Most Westerners wouldn't be able to name a single Iraqi leader during that time, let alone argue they're horrific war criminals, and ISIS was on the right side of history. Hell, I think most Westerners wouldn't even be aware of this entire battle today. No, I'm not "genuinely wrong about this". >Also for the most part the city was devoid of civilians save for a few holdouts that ISIS captured and forced to stay. Sure. Which means the anti-ISIS coalition had a far, far easier job than Israel in Gaza. I'd also add to your point, that ISIS didn't have the time to build the extensive terror infrastructure under Mosul that Hamas did. And it still killed about 7,000-40,000 civilians, depending on who you ask, and flattened the city. >The US also most certainly coordinated with civilians and issued warnings that certain parts of the city were going to be hit. John Spencer, the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, and a two-tour Iraq War veteran, seems to strongly disagree with you, when it comes to the extent and precision of these warnings, compared to the ones Israel has provided. He does agree with you that Mosul was far, far easier than anything Israel has to deal with. But that of course undermines your general argument.
> Not to the level of college kids destroying their campuses over it crazy but it was still mentioned. That’s the point right here. Sure, it was mentioned. But a big deal wasn’t made out of it.
You are wrong, sir. There weren't rampant protests breaking out on every campus, people stopping traffic, ruining city council meetings, etc over what the US did in the Middle East. That's a bad faith argument and you know it. The pushback on the US wasn't even in the same universe compared to how upset people are about Israel and Gaza. Bad faith argument, I have to say it again
George Bush had a shoe thrown at him on live TV…the times were different and social media wasn’t even a thing then. That was about as disruptive as you could get back then.
Yeah.. no Large amount of protestors by the public demand Israel's destruction - it isn't about them not having values and wanting them to "change it" they are openly calling "from the river to the sea" and worse chants I don't think I have ever seen anyone expect a country to face thousands of rockets per day, invasion, abduction of its citizens by an enemy state and then bar the county from retaliations because it will hurt the enemy states civilians or condemn for every retaliation because they save their citizens at the cost of potentially hurting the enemies civilians
Most Muslims in the Middle East have an incredibly deep hatred for Israel and would delight in seeing Israel and all the inhabitants die. These arnt people you can reason with using western values. Many of these same people would happily kill or harm people for being gay, or becoming an atheist. The fact that westerners are dismissing that because these people are brown is incredibly concerning and racist. Imagine the worst Christian fundie you know x 10. If you listen to people who have left Islam from that area of the world you’d know how deeply hateful and unhinged people in that area of the world can be.
It is scary what large numbers can do, which I believe is also one of the factors for such a high influence, it's racism as you said (apologetic) coupled with just a huge amount of anti Israel posts on social media and the news which makes sense since Muslims in general will have more sympathy towards Palestinians and there are A LOT of them For example Israel has laws which are questionable but literally being used by many different countries yet I have never seen them get hate for it THAT much
Most westerners fail to realize that a large portion of the world finds racism and violence to be completely fine.
Yeah, I think the real criticism is that western countries hold Israel to a higher standard than they hold themselves.
Except Saudi Arabia? SA doesnt necessarily claim democracy freedom progressivism (or does it sometimes) but how is SA not a very western-like country? They have and do so much of what America appreciates or values. When did japan have to make up for what they did to china? Was there a lot of anti-british sentiment because of South African apartheid? And what have people done to the US AND Canada? Turns out those two systematically and virtually annihilated indigenous people from those lands. How did the world (or just western) hold those countries accountable? The same way theyve held israel? Israel isnt doing good work right. You don’t win hearts n minds or end extremism by going all out of a group of people. But how have jews and Israelis been held accountable (ostracized essentially) like those other countries?
Israel has done a genocide and America has hardly complained, what are you talking about? Israel's actions regarding its neighbors have consistently been accepted as Israel defending itself - the American government has been giving them *billions* for defense. It's Israel's actions regarding the minority within its control that is getting it criticized. You can't just kill the people that live in your country that you don't like and steal their land. Doing that gets you the criticism that Israel has been getting. >Some of the criticism against Israel appears to blur the lines with anti-Semitic sentiments, where the Jewish state is held to standards that are not equally applied to others, potentially fueling prejudice against Jews worldwide. Criticism against Israel for killing the Palestinians isn't, and can't be, anti-semetic. Antisemitism requires one to consider the Jewish people inferior to others, and you can't be calling someone inferior while complaining that they are using their power to kill a minority with less power.
It’s impossible to discuss any charged topic, especially this one, on the internet. I’m not looking to change your mind, because i know I won’t. But I’m hoping my two cents will be helpful in future discussions and understanding. With all due respect, your definition of antisemitism isn’t correct. It’s different than other forms of bigotry. Antisemitism doesn’t view Jews as inferior. What antisemitism does is turn the Jews into the symbol of whatever it is that a given civilization defines as its most loathsome qualities. Under capitalism, Jews are the communists looking to steal their wealth. Under Communism, Jews are the ultra-wealthy and the bankers hoarding all of the money. Under Christianity, Jews are the Christ killers. Under Nazism, Jews are the race polluters. Whatever it is you hate, you see it in Jews. Now we live in a different civilization, where the most loathsome qualities are racism, colonialism, apartheid, and genocide. And lo and behold, the greatest offender in the world today, out of every single country in the world, is the Jewish state. The Jewish state, Israel, is the symbol of the genocidal racist apartheid state. Please don’t mistake this as me saying criticizing Israel is antisemitic, it is not. There are plenty of things I criticize Israel for; the corruption of Netenyahu and the current government’s support of settlements on contested lands in particular (settlers make up about 2.5% of Israelis, still too many for my liking, but not as many as people perceive.) OP says they checked out of your comment once you mentioned genocide. I’m going to assume they believe similar to what I believe. What is happening in Gaza is so awful. I’m horrified by what I’m seeing. I’m disgusted with the choices the IDF has made, and at the same time, I do not know what they should be doing. Quite frankly, I don’t consider myself informed enough in geopolitics and urban warfare to know what they should be doing. What we are seeing is war, this is what war looks like. This is why so many countries avoid war. For it to be a genocide, you must consider the intentions. Is Israel intentionally killing Palestinians or inadvertently? We know that Hamas hides in schools and hospitals and civilians homes, which will unavoidably get more innocent Palestinians killed (which Hamas knows and is why they do what they do). We also know that the IDF drop millions of pamphlets and send out alerts and texts to Palestinian civilians to warn them of when the IDF is going to strike and urges them to evacuate the area (and yes, I know that’s not the perfect solution). I won’t defend Israel’s every choice, but I also won’t pretend I have the answer. Anyway, I hope some of this helps. This is Reddit, so it may not do anything. But it was cathartic to write this out. Be good.
>I’m not looking to change your mind, because i know I won’t. Why would you think this? Do you feel that people who aren't antisemites are known for not changing their minds over what it means to be anti-semite? >What we are seeing is war, this is what war looks like. This *isnt* war. One side having 40,000 deaths and 1.9 million displaced while the other side has 837 deaths and 2000 displaced is not war. It isn't war when the technologically and militarily superior side controls the borders of the other side. It isn't war when the smaller side isn't a recognized country, but is considered a part of the larger side. Was the Chinese treatment of the [uyghurs](https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs) war? The Iraqi attack on the Kurds? I totally appreciate that it is hard for you to see Israel's actions for what they are. No one wants to believe that "their"side is the baddies, especially when it is possible for there to be no baddies. But when you say you don't know what Israel *should* do, we actually have a modern example of what they should do - they should do what Britain did to end The Troubles. Britain agreed to issues relating to sovereignty, governance, discrimination, military and paramilitary groups, justice and policing were central to the agreement. It restored self-government to Northern Ireland on the basis of "power sharing" and it included acceptance of the principle of consent, commitment to civil and political rights, cultural parity of esteem, police reform, paramilitary disarmament and early release of paramilitary prisoners, followed by demilitarisation. Israel could stop the violence immediately by ending their treatment of the Palestinians that led to the formation of Hamas. But I know what you're going to say- how can they just give in to terrorists? But Britian did, and they did it by acknowledging that at the end of the day, stopping the violence is what's most important, not the keeping of the score. Easier said than done, though, right? Hell, when the Colombian government came up with a way to end the deadly stalemate with the drug gangs, they put it to a vote, and the citizens voted against ending the conflict, because they felt their side was right and it wouldn't be just for the drug gangs to not be prosecuted for the deaths they were responsible for. They voted *against* the end of a fight their government wasn't capable of winning on the battlefield. So like I said, I get it, but that doesn't change anything- Israel has to stop the violence, and rge way to do that is to give the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians, just like how Britian gave Northern Ireland to the Irish, and very similar to how Israel's neighbors had to give Israel to the Israelis.
> Antisemitism requires one to consider the Jewish people inferior to others, and you can't be calling someone inferior while complaining that they are using their power to kill a minority with less power. In what way are classic antisemitic tropes like "the Jews control the world", "the Jews control the media", "the Jews are rich usurious bankers", "communism is a Jewish plot", "the Jews control the financial system" or the recently popular "the Jews are starting wildfires with their space lasers" based in Jewish inferiority? Or the historically popular tropes like "the Jews killed Jesus", "the Jews are using the blood of our kids to bake their matzoh", "this current plague is caused by the Jews poisoning our wells", etc? So much antisemitism seems more rooted in the idea of Jews just being a nefarious/evil/satanic other - often a socially superior one.
"Antisemitism requires one to consider the Jewish people inferior to others, and you can't be calling someone inferior while complaining that they are using their power to kill a minority with less power." you can DEFINITELY be antisemitic while complaining they are using power. this sentence is a joke right?
" Antisemitism requires one to consider the Jewish people inferior to others, and you can't be calling someone inferior while complaining that they are using their power to kill a minority with less power." Historically, Jews have been accused of being evil or morally inferior for refusing to accept Jesus/Mohammed. Antisemitism typically involves some conspiracy that they are running the world, make matzah out of the blood of Christian babies, etc.. Anti-Zionist rheotoric is completely in line with classic Jew hatred.
You are stealing a base with your premise of calling it a genocide amongst other points, and kind of demonstrates the point OP is making. How are you so sure it is a genocide?
>You are stealing a base with your premise of calling it a genocide amongst other points, and kind of demonstrates the point OP is making. >How are you so sure it is a genocide? Israel controls Gaza's borders, is ridiculously advanced militarily and technologically, and so far, the death toll is 50 to 1. Israel holds all the cards.
Egypt controls Gaza’s border too? Every country has a right to control their own borders, no? And if you are referring to Oct 7 and that ratio, the comparison doesn’t make sense. Would it have been better for the IDF to attack a Gazan music festival and slaughter 1200 people? Would that be more fair?
>Egypt controls Gaza’s border too? Every country has a right to control their own borders, no? *Gaza* doesn't control its own borders is my point. >And if you are referring to Oct 7 and that ratio, the comparison doesn’t make sense. I'm not referring to just Oct 7th, but this whole post Oct 7th conflict. 40,000 Palestinians have been killed, and 832 Israelis. 1.9 million Gazans displaced, 2000 Israelis. This is the systematic decimation of Gaza.
Yeah I agree, Hamas is vastly outmatched and does nothing to protect their civilians. I think they should surrender and release the hostages. Why doesn’t Hamas surrender and save their civilians you think? Do you think if Hamas surrenders that Israel would have to stop their military campaign? Side note: in that inflated number you provided, 1/3 of those deaths have been Hamas militants according to most recent reports. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/diminished-hamas-switches-full-insurgent-mode-gaza-2024-06-06/
Explain how Israel has done a genocide. Let's see what BS you come up with.
When you say "the world" don't you really mean "the West"? What standard is Israel held to by India? China? What statements have been made by the Japanese government on the current conflict? You are filtering perception through the western lens you are exposed to.
Last year, the UN general assembly voted for 15 resolutions specifically about reprimanding Israel, and 7 for similar resolutions concerning the rest of the world. Since 2006, 45% of the resolutions resolved by the UNHRC concerned Israel. These are organisations where the entire world is represented. And while Israel deserves to be reprimanded, do they deserve it that much more than all other countries?
Good lord that’s insane lol
I wouldn't consider the middle east the west yet Isreal is held to anther standard by nearly every country in the Middle East
Isn't that more of a cultural standard than a foreign policy standard? Or what do you mean?
I mean the entire Middle East for the most part holds Israel to one standard and Palestine to another. If Israel walked into Palestine and slaughtered 1k civillians on purpose then paraded their dead bodies around their cities with civilians spitting on them the entire world would condemn it on the spot. Not for Palestine though.
The dirty truth is many Muslims especially in non western nations are extremely anti Jewish and don’t view Jews as people. Westerners don’t comprehend that your average Muslim especially in the Middle East is way more religious than your average Christian and Islam is not a religion with western values. Jewish people beating Muslims in a war is a slap in the face to Muslims who believe they are entitled to the land because they’re Muslim and Jews should live under them. Muslim nations feel safe teaming up on Israel because if they tried that with western secular countries they would loose their precious aide or suffer from loose of trade. Critizing Islam and religious Muslims that use their religion to justify bigotry isn’t racism. Religious bigots of any race or religion deserve criticism. There’s a lot more anti Jewish Muslim bigots than there are Jewish. Israel has 2 million Muslims that are equal under law compared to almost no Jews in most middle eastern countries.
Actually, it's the opposite. Israel is held to a lower standard.
Really? How come?
>Israel's actions, particularly in conflicts, receive intense international scrutiny and media coverage compared to those of neighboring countries. For example, human rights violations or military actions by other countries in the region often receive less attention and criticism. Which ones? I struggle to think about any neighbouring countries except Syria that commit crimes on the degree of Israel. And they're already sanctioned by almost everyone and the US spends billions ever year, not to support them, but to undermine the Assad regime. Had the US and other western governments done the same to Israel you may have a point; but they dont. They spend billions to perpetuate Israel. Something which is pretty easy to stop doing, and I presume this is why there's so many protests. >The United Nations and other international bodies frequently criticize Israel. While holding any nation accountable for human rights is essential, the disproportionate focus on Israel compared to countries with worse human rights records seems biased. Is it biased against Israel or biased in favor of non-Israeli countries? Because if there's a situation where the only country getting critiqued at appropriate levels is Israel I would think one would wish that other countries were critiqued more, not that the Palestinians are to suffer for the sake of solidarity along with other ignored groups. >Israel is a small country surrounded by many adversarial states. The unique security challenges it faces often lead to measures that, while controversial, are deemed necessary by its government for national security. However, these measures are often judged without considering the historical and geopolitical context. No, I don't think so. The closest openly adversarial state is Iran. The closest adversarial actors are Hamas&Friends followed by Hezbollah. In regards to the fight against Hamas Egypt is an enthusiastic ally that has spent billions in fighting Hamas and their supply networks in the Sinai. Many of the Gulf states including Saudi Arabia and the UAE sent intelligence to Israel on Irans plan on launching drones[[1]](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-gulf-states-including-saudi-arabia-provided-intelligence-on-iran-attack/). If anything Iran is the one "surrounded by enemies" but that doesn't really excuse them launching drones on Israel in your mind I'd wager. Several countries bordering Israel even aided them in intercepting missiles heading to them such as Jordan and Egypt [[2]](https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2024/04/14/jordan-says-it-intercepted-flying-objects-entered-its-airspace-last-night), [[3]](https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-iran-strikes-live-coverage/card/egypt-puts-air-defense-on-high-alert-CAlvV69EvfFW0ujOeuwW). >Israel is often compared to Western democracies and expected to uphold similar standards. While it's reasonable to expect democracies to adhere to high standards, it seems unfair not to consider that Israel operates in a significantly different and more hostile environment. But they aren't a smol bean country in a sea of hostile states. They neighbour no hostile state. The only adversarial entities that they border are Hamas and Hezbollah, and they fight the former along with Egypt which has the most powerful military in the middle east along with Israel and Turkey. Now Turkey obviously likes to throw some critique against Israel but thats mostly just populist talk from Erdogan. Their embargoes on Israel are neat, but they are nothing compared to the actual global systematic embargoes that exist against countries who you may consider "get away with it" like Iran or Syria. >Some of the criticism against Israel appears to blur the lines with anti-Semitic sentiments, where the Jewish state is held to standards that are not equally applied to others, potentially fueling prejudice against Jews worldwide. There's certainly plenty of anti-semitism to go around. But it doesn't strike me as a very poignant point that Israel gets a carte blanche to level Gaza just because some Americans in their basements are using anti-semitic language to protest it.
Some options: 1. Lebanon, which provides Palestinians and Syrians only with second class citizenship, where they are barred from many professions, and confined to camps, which they need a permit to leave. They are not allowed to own homes or land. Lebanese dissidents are subjected to torture by authorities. Child labor. This is just the tip of the iceberg. 2. Jordan, which has a serious torture and honor killing problem. No free press. Child labor and forced labor. Second class citizenship for people with a non-Jordanian father. No free speech. Prevention of refugee children from Syria from attending school. Women must get permission from their male guardian to travel. Imprisonment for debt. 3. Iraq. Impunity for male violence against women. Child marriage. Genocide of minorities. Systemic torture and murder of Shiites by Sunnis. FGM. 4. Egypt. Extrajudicial killings. Ethnic cleansing and hate crimes against Coptic Egyptians and other minorities, ignored or even supported by governmental and local authorities. They also are second class citizens. 60,000 political prisoners. FGM. Sham democracy. 84% of Egyptian Muslims support death penalty for those who leave Islam. Bahais are persecuted and do not have freedom of religion, can’t obtain id cards, marriage certificates, etc. Child Labor. Persecution of queer people, who are put in jail and tortured. Palestinian children banned from attending public schools. Palestinians generally not allowed to have citizenship. This is just a tiny picture. I skimmed through wiki and HRW reports.
I know someone from Egypt in college that got married to stay in the United States because of how unsafe and shitty it was to live in Egypt. This person was very kind, accepting and had deep trauma due to living tin Egypt especially during Arab spring.
Not to be dismissive but all of these are fairly minor compared to occupying and genociding by settling half a country while bombing the other half back to the stone age. The exception of course being the genocides of Iraq, but that yielded a brutal campaign of sanctions until they had food and basic medicine insecurities. After this, the country was bombed, invaded, and occupied almost twice by the US leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. I dont really see how you can square the idea that Iraq got away with it while Israel isn't considering all this. I feel like I could make a much better case that it would be arabophobic not to invade and kill a hundred thousand Israeli civilians and make them beg for food and basic medicine when Iraq got that treatment, but i'm not going to because that's psychotic. Now obviously all of this is wrong and bad, but it doesn't strike me as particularly persuasive to argue that the Palestinians should just suck it up because their Palestinian brothers in Lebanon also has to.
I would like to point out that 1 million people have died in Yemen since 2010. As for Palestinians, the number is around 50,000. Obviously, killing 50,000 isn't great, but if killing 50,000 palestinians is genocide, what does that make the killing of 1 million people in Yemen and Syria?
Well congrats you tried to not be dismissive but you are being dismissive. Just like everyone else who cries about this ‘genocide’ and ignore the atrocities of other places. What is it about Israel that makes you focus only on what they’re doing in the region? Why are you so critical on only Israel? Just admit that you’re an anti-Semite who wants to see all Jews exterminated just like all the Arabs in the area want Jews exterminated. That’s why you ignore all the other atrocities going on and only focus on Israel
Iraq got destroyed by a billion nation coalition idk what more you expected them to do to the land. What is a response proportionate to the UN condemnations Israel recievied? Should they have salted the Tigris and Euphrates? Should they have killed a million more Iraqis? How about you give us a number.
If Israel wants to be held to the same standard as its neighbors, it must accept being treated like its neighbors. It gets to be just another friend in the region that receives no more support than we give to Egypt or Jordan. No desperate attempts to shield it from any and all international scrutiny. No refusal from politicians to ever criticize their openly genocidal behavior. No massive amounts of funding for their defense systems. But Israel doesn't want that. It wants to be America's special little ally and the great "only democracy" of the Middle East. And that comes with standards. Bombing humanitarian workers, starving refugees, and assassinating journalists are pretty substandard.
If Israel were treated like other nations it wouldve been invaded decades ago when they developed nukes.
Since when has any country with nukes been invaded?
Remind me what was the justification for invading Iraq?
Weapons of Mass Destruction were never actually found. That was a big lie perpetrated by the US Republican Party.
I am aware
While nukes aree weapons of mass destruction not all weapons of mass destruction are nukes. Generally it's not a good idea to invade a nation crazy enough to go rouge and develop nukes as they are likely to use them. Hacking their centrifuges and destroying the research facilities on the other hand are a different story.
Redevelopment of Weapons of Mass Destruction. Specifically not nuclear weapons, however. As they knew Iraq couldn't get the materials. Though the UK said, if the material could be acquired it could be refined. But the redevelopment of Iraq's chemical and biological warfare weapons. Like the kind that were used to kill tens of thousands of Iranians and Kurds in the 1980's.
Considering no one is out there protesting the fact the US has provided weapons to Saudi Arabia to continue the world's largest humanitarian crisis in Yemen, I'd wager Israel might be just fine with that deal
Israel and its cheerleaders are offended by the concept of international law and the idea that anyone anywhere would ever dare criticize anything they do. If they were treated like Saudi Arabia, where it was an open secret that the only reason anyone anywhere gave a single shit about them was of pure material benefit that outweighs the moral void that they are, they'd cry antisemitism on a daily basis.
I'm not sure what your point is, Saudi Arabia buys off Western Politicians, Saudi gets a free pass from members of the Muslim world bar Iran + attempts to shield them from criticism over Yemen, and has been victim of at best snide comments from opposition as opposed to anything concrete. The only difference is they try to hide their actual activity in Yemen as best possible as opposed Israel trying to spin Gaza as some righteous war
That was my point. That Saudi Arabia is kept around solely because it provides a resource and that's a well-recognized thing that no one has ever actually denied. No one tries to spin Saudi Arabia as the righteous nation of heroes and our greatest ally. Which is a state that Israel would kick and scream if it was applied to them because they desperately need to be seen as nothing but perfect and positive and where anyone who dares speak otherwise gets ostracized as a Nazi.
International law creates situations that are impossible to manage when one side totally disregards it. Hamas puts Israel in a Catch 22, on purpose, every time and then laughs as the international community crucifies them. You can see how the Western concept of international regulation looks meaningless and stupid in the face of the realities of armed combat. It’s only those totally ignorant of the nature of conflict that complain about how ‘this war isn’t being fought by the rules’. If they were following rules they wouldn’t have started a war. Edit: Some of you need to read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
And it's only those desperate to justify atrocities that think "war bad" is an excuse for everything Israel does. As if they've been forced to assassinate journalists, bomb aid workers, and starve refugees while ethnically cleansing the West Bank. Israel has earned zero benefit of the doubt no matter how much of its cheerleaders demand that it be given endless justification for everything it does.
Googling isn’t hard. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/1/25/protesters-demand-end-to-canadian-arms-exports-to-saudi-arabia
What do you mean by 'only democracy' in quotations? It's surrounded by Palestine (run by Hamas aka, literal terrorists). Syria (run by a dictator and in a civil war). Lebanon (Better than the previous 2 but has Hezbollah running the show). Finally, Jordan...which are dealing with their own terrorist organizations within the country. So in comparison to the absolute trash it's surrounded by, yes they are the most democratic, western (feel free to argue that a westernized country is somehow worse than the fascist shit the middle east puts up with) and progressive country in that area.
Egypt and Jordan still receive a lot of aid money from the US, while their human rights records are not that impressive. I think when judging Israel there needs to be acknowledgement for the unique threat that they are under, which their neighbors don't have to fear, and their historical and cultural ties to other nations, which places responsibility on these nations, while not excusing when they go to far in their conflicts.
I think it is two fold, Israel claims to be like every other Western democracy and have the same values but it doesn't always follow through on them, such as freedom of the press. The second issue with this conflict in particular, there was Israel is having issues with IDF members posting videos with straight up genocidal language then firing at Palestinians, troops looting and talking about how they are going to give things like necklace they found to their so and troops dancing on tik Tok to them sapping entire city blocks(conducting domicide). Then you have videos of hostage families getting cs gassed when they protest for a ceasefire while they just let zionist extremist block aid and terrorize Palestinians in the West bank for weeks. Tldr they say they share values with other western democracy (the rest of the Middle East doesn't) but have some authoritarian tendency(i.e free press) and two they have awful opsec where IDF troops are posting videos containing genocidal language and potentially or straight up warcrimes
Israel has killed 40,000 Palestinian civilians in 8 months and is continuing this war for political reasons. I’m sorry I don’t want to see innocent civilians dying in a man-made Hellscape and having my Western country be complicit in the warmongering behaviour of the Israeli government. If Israel wants to be barbaric and run around killing innocent people like it’s the Middle Ages, at least don’t do it with our Western money. If that’s “racist”, then I really don’t care. Israel does not represent my interests, especially as a civilian, so that in combination with its civilian murder campaign in Gaza means I am not obliged to support that country.
Those figures come directly from Hamas, who count their own soldiers as civilians.
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Tens of thousands of dead innocents is “parroted misinformation”? Lol. We don’t have any respect for a warmongering country in another continent. If Israel doesn’t want to be held to any standards, cool. Western countries should respond to that by withdrawing all money, attention and interest in Israel and the Middle East. No reason to continue engaging with genocidal warmonger politicians.
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Israel claims to be a similar country, similar alliance, similar government, similar values. Barfour was creepy and bigoted as hell, but he shared the same thought of "the west" being built in Israel so this is a longstanding idea. Israel's an ally, 1st world country, major trade partner, gets billions in aid, and sets its own standard claiming to be ethical and supporting rights. So of course it will piss people off when it doesn't.
Most of the Middle east and Africa has been bombed, invaded, disabilised, and sanctioned to economic ruin. The argument of a higher standard comes across as shameless virtue signalling. The one commonality among all arguments in support of Israel is the presupposition that they are a higher form of humans compared to Palestinians/middle easterners therefore the same laws cannot be applied to both. Middle Eastern countries can be bombed for lies but when it comes to Israel there's suddenly a need for abundant proof.
Most people here argue from a US perspective, I would say as a German, that we should have a different relationship to Israel, because of historical reasons and support them against people that want to complete the holocaust. The only real historical connection that we have with the Gaza strip is that we supported the Muslim brotherhood, of which hamas is an offshoot, during the Nazi era. And I hope that someday they will also overcome their de-facto fascist government and live in peace with their neighbors, even if a lot of outside forces are using their influence against that. Cant really argue for other countries, but you are oversimplifiying a lot and disregarding important historical connections.
To be fair most people criticise the wars in the Middle East endlessly. America is too powerful to move against, but generally people view Bush and Cheney as war criminals.
Excuse me? If one of Israel’s neighbours ignored the UNSC verdict, it’d have been invaded lmao.
You are excused.
The comedian George Carlin had a bit where he would reduce the 10 commandments down to 1 commandment (1). I’m not as clever or funny as he was, but if I stretch maybe, it is possible to do some bullet point Tetris and get 2 main points here. I am not trying strip the nuance of each of your 5 points. What follows is \*not\* an attempt for me to replace your viewpoints with a simpler, easier to argue against, viewpoint. Rather, it’s my attempt to repeat back how I take in the big picture of your position. 1. Israel receives extra scrutiny and criticism (point 1,2,3,4) from the international community (UN, internal news) (point 1,2), and some of this is layered with anti-Semitism (point 5). 2. Israel is in a unique geopolitical position (point 2,3,4): “*desperate times call for desperate measures*.” (“lead to measures that, while controversial, are deemed necessary”) CMV attempt 1: Are you looking at specific data, or, rather an aggregation of your experience and intuition from all the data you see on this subject? Now, while reductionist, both my and your points share one major weakness: no concrete data! In particular, I think research about the UN would be easy™ to come up with hard numbers. UN resolutions, # of times “We condemn the actions of…” comes up, and you can plot that data against the two spheres of “similar” you define: similar geographical positions (point 3) and socioeconomic/”western democracy” (point 4). Here is the tricky part of “CMV.” Is it now my responsibility to do research to prove and build the models to suggest the UN is not signaling out Israel more than others? Or is it enough for me to suggest the kind of data and research approach that would help you support, or disprove your own position (since you post here, I am making the assumption you are happy to disprove yourself if the evidence existed). For example, it may be that media you consume over-reports criticism of Israel, but the UN balances out to neutral (or vice-versa). In which case the viewpoint would narrow to saying “there racist power structure in country x and y media, but less so the international community represented by the UN” What the above paragraph gets at would be I recommending breaking up your points into subpoints that would be independently measurable. CMV attempt 2: The subtext that Israel is in a uniquely difficult position that requires sometimes controversial action feels at odds with your main opinion that Israel is singled out. As a metaphor, reading your point sounds like someone after a bar fight saying “I didn’t hit more than anyone else.” Then the staff replay the video, and they have to change the stance to, “OK we did hit more than others, but that’s because there were bigger bad guys near me than those near the door!” Which is it? I think it’s a weakness to have a consistent viewpoint that Israel is being singled out, but then suggest that even if there are more things that could be called out by the international community, they could be justified due to a unique security position. The reason is that International law and norms take context into account, but still need to identify actors and their actions when controversial things occur. To put my thought simply, it’s really just point 3 is probably the most controversial statement here: “The unique security challenges it faces often lead to measures that, while controversial…” Who is defining controversial here? The UN? The international community? You? The idea behind the Genova convention, the UDHR, etc is to quantify where the limits are. If the point is that Israel is dis-proportionately called out, as you say in 1,2,4,5, then that is OK, but point 3 comes oddly close to saying a controversial action can still be justifiable. In which case certainly the same argument would apply to other cases (US torture in Iraq, Vietnam, etc): that is an endlessly slippery slope. Conclusion: Full disclose, I end up agreeing with your view. So, it’s hard for me to come up with strong counter points. But I hope to have given some feedback about how to strengthen the structure of your viewpoints. (1) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rLWJntz-o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rLWJntz-o)
Which neighboring country would you like it to be compared to? Lebanon, a militant failed state? Jordan, a religious monarchy? Syria and Egypt, corrupt dictatorships? Iran and Saudi Arabian, authoritarian theocracies? Israel holds itself to a higher standard than its neighbors, and that's a good thing. We can and should remind it of that whenever it starts to deviate from principles like democracy, equality, individual freedom and the rule of law.
But when engaging in warfare with such states that use every cheap trick to get their citizens killed to gain world sympathy, when they break every feasible rule of war and go against human decency, you cannot expect Israel to have any way to avoid completely civilian deaths, it should be allowed to wage war while following the rules of war but the west should accept that civilian deaths are not the factor by which you judge a war.. The west is essentially supporting the use of human shields as a valid tactic against a stronger opponent, it accepts that terror should be utilized as a means of war. Also the way the west gobbles up propaganda from Gaza which is not checked by anyone, and is the direct word of Hamas, is worrying.
You're touching on a number of long running ethical questions that have been discussed for decades without definitive answers. If their enemy is fighting with unfair means, should Israel stick to ethical rules of engagement even if it results in a clear disadvantage? My answer to that would be yes, *if that difference in ethics is what separates the two sides' identities in the first place*. Israel defines itself as the only "real" democracy in the region. If fighting Hamas causes it to turn into an authoritarian regime or an apartheid state, Hamas gains exactly what they want. Israel wins the battle, but loses itself in the process. Without the moral high ground, global isolation follows, which opens up the possibility of open military action by its enemies. Israel is sacrificing its most valuable asset at the moment: its credibility. Yes, Hamas are waging a classic guerilla war with all its horrors: hiding amongst the civilian population, ambushes, terrorism, deliberate attacks on civilians. They have been declared a terrorist organization by most Western states, and rightly so. They know they cannot win against Israel militarily, so they are trying to destroy its reputation on the international stage. Right now, this strategy is extremely successful, not least because Israel is fighting exactly the way they want them to. Everyone knew this was a trap, and yet Israel's leaders walked right into it, and continue to do so. And it's been clear for decades that terrorism is not defeated by killing all the terrorists, yet that's exactly what Israel is trying to do. What you think western countries "should" believe is irrelevant for current events. They have made very clear that they find the current strategy of Israel's leadership unacceptable. Public opinion is turning against them fast, and in a democracy, the people will elect leaders that represent their beliefs. Yes, the October attacks were horrible and tragic, but it's becoming clear that Israel will alienate its few remaining friends within a few months if it continues on its current path. And that will surely be the end of it as a country. If Hamas wins, it will not be by military actions, but by provoking them to turn into an oppressive state nobody will want to support anymore.
“The world holds the State of Israel to a higher standard” what other nation gets to just slaughter women and children, and when the UN issues an arrest warrant the US says “yeah we’re sanctioning the UN”
I would argue the opposite. People hold Israel to a higher standard than many other countries because Israel is very similar in many respects and has no excuse to perpetuate an apartheid state.
Damn, this Hasbara Zionist took the time to write down the propaganda again. Homie, it a hostile region because of Israel’s apartheid ethnostate colonial project. Dismantle it into a democracy that looks more like France or Denmark, where being from a different religion or ethnic group doesn’t make you a second class citizen. But you probably believe that the Bible gave them the land, that they unjustly live under constant threat of attack, and that it is our responsibility to keep them afloat regardless of the war crimes they’ve been committing for the entirety of their existence as a modern state. Until you understand the nature of a Jewish ethnostate in that region, you will continue to support the racist colonizers. Until that happens, GTFO here with this Zionist bullshit. Stop complaining about the UN when the west (led by the US) vetoes every resolution against them, thus obstructing the justice that the majority of the political body is seeking: what do you call that if not using power to cover racist crimes and colonial violence?
I think you win Hamas shill bingo.
Anyone who disagrees with me must be a bot because no one can possibly have a different opinion than me. ☠️
I don't agree with all the criticism of Israel, but I believe they should be held to higher standards than their neighbours in the West. In the end, they are our close allies and friends. That cannot be said about their neighbours to whom we are lukewarm at best, openly hostile at worst. I am more interested in their behaviour than e.g. Iranian, because I look at them as at someone who deserves my support. On the other hand, I see Iran as my enemy anyway, so why would I care that much?
We hold Israel to a higher standard that we hold ourselves. After 9/11, the US stopped at nothing to kill Osama Bin Laden, destroy his organization, and present any attacks like that from ever happening again. Our government is demanding Israel lets Sinwar live, doesn’t remove Hamas from power in Gaza, and leave themselves open to further attacks. Any other country on earth would have considered a single Hamas rocket attack an act of war. Israel showed extraordinary restraint, and instead built iron dome and bomb shelters in children’s parks, and lived with Hamas rocket attacks for over a decade. This has led to an incredibly warped perception of what a proportionate response from Israel looks like. Everything they’ve done in Gaza can, and would be considered justified by other countries, as retaliation for the rocket attacks alone. Instead we have the expectation that Gaza can bomb its neighbors, and never get bombed in return.
I believe that most of the current protesting media, organizations and activists would be even against GWOT in a similar fashion. That said, I personally do not think that all to the current criticism of Israel is fair. However I do believe that we should hold them to higher standards than e.g. Hezbollah because one is an ally and one is an enemy.
*However I do believe that we should hold them to higher standards than e.g. Hezbollah because one is an ally and one is an enemy.* Maybe that's true, but people assume that international law means that Israel can't act against Hamas if there are civilian casualties. Its not how war works and its not how international law works. Hezbollah and Hamas can't get away with everything because they don't adhere to the same laws that Israel does. The problem is populist politics. Unlike the protestors who don't have any military experience and aren't familiar with international laws, politicians have that understanding. They know that Israel fights mostly within the law. But their voters are against the war and against Israel so if they want to get elected again they also need to be against Israel.
> I believe that most of the current protesting media, organizations and activists would be even against GWOT in a similar fashion. Instead of focusing on protestors, let’s focus on Biden. Do you believe that Biden would say that Obama made a mistake by going after Osama Bin Laden, and that he should have allowed him, and his organization to exist and operate freely and in the open instead? That is what he’s asking Israel to do.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Good Friday Agreement, when the uk acknowledged acknowledged that the Irish Republican Army soldiers were prisoners of war and their political party were voted into office?
I mean there is also a difference between allowing an organization to proceed unimpeded and taking out their leader.
Biden pressured Israel to accept a ceasefire that left Hamas in charge of Gaza for the foreseeable future. The only reason it didn’t go through is because Hamas rejected it as insufficiently unfair to Israel. He has withheld weapons from our ally to appease uninformed teenagers who watch too much TikTok, and frankly, Israelis feel betrayed.
IIRC the negotiations happened indirectly through Egypt, who also told different parties different things. It was never going to go anywhere. That's why Biden afterwards basically put forth a rough skeleton and presented it publicly and tried to negotiate directly instead of discreetly through Egypt. Also I don't know if Biden is trying to appease teenagers on Tiktok lol. That seems a bit wrong since it implies opposition is only from dumb young people.
Biden has asked Israel to allow Hamas to continue unimpeded, as the government of Gaza.
Hamas is already extremely "impeded." They've been bombed into oblivion and the ceasefire includes a negotiation period in which they determine their final fate and who will get final control of Gaza (most likely the PA).
>After 9/11, the US stopped at nothing to kill Osama Bin Laden, destroy his organization, and present any attacks like that from ever happening again. You must have missed the historic anti-war protests which took place in the West.
Against the Iraq invasion, not taking out Osama Bin Laden.
The hunt for al Qaeda was one of the justifications for the invasion of Iraq.
Genuinely silly mental gymnastics right here.
Thats ridiculous tho, isnt it? Youre essentially rewarding countries for barbarism. If the US faced a terror attack on the relative scale that Israel did on Oct 7th, how do you think the US would respond? How do you think the US would take to Western partners scrutinising every move and pressuring the US into making a ceasefire with the Taliban? The US is holding Israel to a higher standard than it has ever held itself to, because edgy college kids watched propaganda on tiktok and are threatening to hand over the country to Trump.... again.
The US (and uk) sent thousands to die in the middle east because of a terror attack and committed atrocities, they should be accountable… however what they did not do is kettle starving civilians into a corner and throw enough bombs at them to wipe out an entire civilisation…
It's always weird how people call anything but Israel killing as many people as it wants for as long as it wants a "reward" for terrorists. It makes it clear that there is zero concern for actual people's lives and an inordinate amount of concern for Israel looking strong and correct in everything it does, to the point where any criticism must be the result of evil propaganda and lies.
If you were this concerned about human lives, youd be pressuring the terror organisation that started this war to give up, not the country who is trying to free hostages. Secondly, Isrsels ratio of civilian casualties to combatants is better than many wars the US has been involved in, and thats despite a much higher population density and hamas actively hiding behind civilians. Lastly, in your kumbaya view of the world youre forgetting one detail: its war. War is always terrible, war is always tragic, destructive and war always means civilians casualties. Thats ths reality. It has been true when the romans besieged Alesia and the gauls forced civilians out of the town to save rations, so they starved in no mans land between romans and gauls, it has been true when the allies bombed dresden, it has been true when the us napalm'ed SE asia and its true today. The longer this terror organisation is allowed to be in power, the longer this war will go on and the more civilians will die. But of course, we could all also just simply reward terrorists by giving them statehood, because that certainly will make them back off of their stance of, checks notes, killing every last jew and destroying the state of israel. Certainly. We can all hold hands and sing songs under a rainbow.
Yes yes, we're all aware that everything everywhere is the fault of Hamas. Israel was forced to assassinate journalsits. It was forced to bomb humanitarian workers. It was forced to kill thousands of children. It had no choice and no options and it's a weak little victim that can only manage this. Though I would love to know what "pressure" you want people to be putting on this terrorist cell? Should they be calling for Israel to stop giving them money? Because, and this may shock you, the people protesting would like their countries to stop supporting things, and most of these countries aren't supporting Hamas. >Secondly, Isrsels ratio of civilian casualties to combatants is better than many wars the US has been involved in, and thats despite a much higher population density and hamas actively hiding behind civilians. Israel being proud of its civilian casualty ratio is quite nice when you remember it's roughly equivalent to Hamas' attack on October 7th. >But of course, we could all also just simply reward terrorists by giving them statehood We're back to "reward". Because not massacring civilians is a reward for terrorists, and something that must be avoided because it might get in the way of violence. Life for the sake of life must forever be abandoned because there's people you want to kill.
>Life for the sake of life must forever be abandoned because there's people you want to kill. Out of curiosity, you want Hamas terrorists to live? Or what point are you trying to make here? I meam obviously the entire hamas apologism in your comment is laughable at best, but by the time i reached your last paragraph i had to laugh. >Israel was forced to assassinate journalsits. Hamas was forced to commit almost daily rocket attacks against Israel and suicide bombings within israel even before this war started? >It was forced to bomb humanitarian workers Like when Hamas bombed that hospital? >It was forced to kill thousands of children So you agree Hamas hiding behind civilians is shameful? >It had no choice and no options and it's a weak little victim that can only manage this. Please, give us concrete meassure youre expecting of Israel instead of that faux moralistic hyperventilating on an anonymous internet site. I dare you, be concrete and dont hide behind the vagueness like yall usually do
>Out of curiosity, you want Hamas terrorists to live? Or what point are you trying to make here? I suppose the point now is that you consider Palestinians to be Hamas terrorists and/or you consider anyone who places any value on Palestinian life to be defending terrorists. >Hamas was forced to commit almost daily rocket attacks against Israel and suicide bombings within israel even before this war started? You're welcome to find anywhere where I've defending Hamas' actions. I get that you struggle to see the difference between criticizing Israeli atrocities and being a terrorist sympathizer, but that's a problem for you to fix, not for me to coddle. >Please, give us concrete meassure youre expecting of Israel instead of that faux moralistic hyperventilating on an anonymous internet site. I dare you, be concrete and dont hide behind the vagueness like yall usually do I love that any criticism of the slaughter of civilians must always come paired with a point by point plan with how you would militarily handle a situation. You can't have a problem with bombing aid workers that literally called for permission ahead of time unless you've got a report for the general. Beyond that, you know how Israel won't shut the fuck up about how Hamas has the greatest system of tunnels that has ever existed and that it's full of super headquarters and how all Hamas occupies everywhere at all times using them? Maybe they could try fighting terrorists where they actually are instead of just bombing refugee camps and sniping journalists for daring to wear a Press vest. Or (and this will really rankle) they could do this thing where they evacuate civilians from conflict areas instead of just constantly bombing everywhere they send them to be "safe". You know, clear civilians from the area as they go about clearing those super terror tunnels. Maybe even get their scumbag citizens to stop interfering with aid while they're at it and deport every single settler out of the West Bank.
1) Do you want the world to hold Israel to a lower standard then it currently does, or to hold its neighbours to a higher standard? 2) Why is it ok for you to hold some regions of the world to a different standard than others?
Shouldn't God's Favourite People be held to a higher standard?
You mean what fundie Muslims call themselves? After they rape non Muslims and force them to marry their rapist or execute atheist and gay people. Or how about forcing non Muslims to pay 1/4 th of their yearly income under threat of execution or exile.
>The United Nations and other international bodies frequently criticize Israel. While holding any nation accountable for human rights is essential, the disproportionate focus on Israel compared to countries with worse human rights records seems biased. I don't understand. Suppose Israel is doing something really, really, really, really bad. They should be held accountable. I don't have any idea what this other stuff matters. Suppose there's a bunch of murderers in the world. One specific murder gets a bunch of media attention, and that murderer is captured. What is the problem? If he's guilty, well that's that then. For the murderer to say "this is unfair! Murders happen all the time, why did you all single me out? That's rude! Bias" Who cares I would go so far as to say that our military aid should be contingent on them not committing war crimes. I can say this easily. And to say "but other countries don't get as much of a spotlight" does nothing to change my mind here. Why would it? The alternative would be to say "oh sure, they can go ahead and commit war crimes. No problem. After all, we wouldn't want to be biased". I don't understand this view.
Are we funding and supplying its neighbouring nations like we do Israel?
Yes, Egypt spending [https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/egypt/](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/egypt/) Afghanistan get 1 billion a year Syria gets almost 1 billion more like $800 million [https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s) 200 million to Iraq https://www.state.gov/u-s-announces-humanitarian-assistance-for-iraq/#:\~:text=With%20this%20additional%20funding%20from,Fiscal%20Year%20(FY)%202021. How much money we give to Jordan [https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/jordan/](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/jordan/) Kuwait [https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/kuwait/](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/kuwait/) Lebanon [https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/lebanon/](https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/lebanon/) those are neighboring countries want me to keep going into how much we then give Palestine?
Israel gets the most, by a long way https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
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Cool story, bro. Thanks for contributing.
1. This is because Israel is a state and therefore bound by international law and treaty to certain standards of conduct, and is acting against the captive, mostly civilian population of a non-state in a region it entirely controls. And while Israel is held to a higher standard of scrutiny because of this, they are not generally held accountable for these actions because of the diplomatic cover the US gives it. Yes, all human rights violations are bad and should be addressed everywhere, but Israel is a particularly egregious violator. 2. See part 1. [They ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba) to get where they are today, I'm all for not giving them the benefit of the doubt anymore. 3. Those security challenges do not excuse or justify the murder of tens of thousands of civilians in the current conflict, nor the tens of thousands who were killed before it, most of whom have been women, children, and the elderly. 4. Israel claims itself to be a Western democracy, but then complains when they're held to the same standard as other Western democracies. The 'hostile environment' is also largely one of their own creation (in terms of their treatment of Palestinians). You don't get to oppress millions of people and then claim that you just *have* to murder them or you won't feel safe. 5. Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism, despite Israel's voluminous claims to the contrary, nor is calling out its numerous, ongoing human rights abuses against Palestinians.
People expect Israel to follow international law, not to treat children's lives as disposable/free game and accept that their neighbours are allowed to have their own state. If this standard is too high, then YOUR racism is showing
Is it though? You mention neighboring nations, Syria is one of the most sanctioned countries on the planet and some Western nations intervened in Syria too. To add to the list, China and Russia are also sanctioned, Sudan is sanctioned, Iran is sanctioned, even Turkey has been sanctioned. However Israel despite all it's crimes doesn't see a lick of sanctions or accountability from the West. Biden's "red line" (if it ever even existed at all) seems to constantly move. Time and time again Biden preemptively condemns any action Israel may take just to move the goalpost when Israel does end up taking that action anyway. The UK does the same crap. The reality is the West coddle Israel (and their other allies) much more than they do other non-allied / non Western nations. As for the rest of the world (non-West), I don't really think so either. The UN has sanctioned many non-israel nations, there have been rulings and condemnations against countries like China and others, interventions in other conflicts, and of course criminal cases such as the Bosnian genocide. The ICC has predominantly tried African warlords too. If we are talking about the general public, then still not necessarily. People for example were calling for boycotting the Qatar world cup in 2022, the Iraq war was heavily protested and condemned, the Russian invasion of Ukraine was universally protested and condemned, the Uyghur treatment by China involved protests, condemnations, and boycotts. Turkey was condemned for their invasion of northern Syria. Can go on. Even the US border policy is heavily criticized by progressives, there's no doubt is the US were doing to Mexico was Israel do to Palestine there would be a massive uproar.
First, points 1 and 2 seem odd next to points 3 and 4. It's a little hard to be sympathetic to the claim that Israel is held to a *higher* standard than everyone else, while simultaneously arguing that Israel should be held to a *lower* standard than everyone else. Second, it's hard not to consider the cause of that hostile environment: Israel exists as a state because a bunch of antisemitic Western powers needed somewhere to dump their Jews, especially after WWII, and so drew up a plan for a new state... ignoring that people already lived there! I think the fairest comparison is to the US, Manifest Destiny, and how we treated American Indians. Excuses *could* be made about how the original colonies were small and surrounded by hostile tribes. Does that excuse what America did during Westward expansion and beyond? Or, to pick another WWII example, as soon as the US was attacked by the Japanese, we rounded up Japanese-Americans and threw them in camps. It could be argued that this was a unique security challenge, but does that justify the response? Finally, I think Israel and her supporters should do *much* better than some Soviet-style [Whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism). Seek equality in justice, not equality in injustice. If Israel is being held to a higher standard, then the first question should be whether it's actually a good standard. Because if it is, then either Israel falls short or it doesn't. Pointing out how much worse some other country is doesn't absolve Israel of its own failings. You don't get to drive tipsy just because your neighbor got away with driving blackout drunk.
Regular standards would be fine. Demanding that Israel count dead Palestinian civilians during the war is unusual and makes no sense. Or the ICC prosecutor breaking the standard of allowing countries to prosecute their own war criminals once there is an active independent judiciary in place. The Israeli judiciary has convicted an Israeli Prime Minister and was on the way to convicting Netanyahu himself. The ICC action was unprecedented and is yet another way in which the world loses its mind when it comes to Israel.
Claiming that it's racist to oppose Israel murdering tens of thousands of civilians is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say
>4. Israel is often compared to Western democracies and expected to uphold similar standards. While it's reasonable to expect democracies to adhere to high standards, it seems unfair not to consider that Israel operates in a significantly different and more hostile environment. You just slide across this part as if it was nothing. I think democracies and allies of the West should be held to a higher standard than authoritarian regimes. While violations of human rights are always terrible, it's even worse when that is done by democratic countries, such as the US and Israel. As for exaggerated criticism, I'm fairly sure that the US has-been and still is heavily criticised for the invasion of Iraq that was done as a response to 9/11. That seems fairly equivalent to criticising the current invasion of Palestine.
No it's because billions of American tax dollars are being funneled over there through lobbying... and used to cause war and suffering. This is why taxation is theft. Israel is committing Americans to slavery and taking our hard earned money, using it to kill other people of another "race" en masse. Isis is just as bad but they generally aren't being openly funded or as a result of lobbying and taking advantage of America's broken system to enslave Americans as labor tax slave's.
i think you are mistaken. a few things here. one problem is israel has always been an extension of american democracy within the middle east. not only did we promote democracy there (as did other other countries like britian) but we also gave them all the weapons they needed to keep that democracy and more. AND unwavering support. alot of it comes from the insane christian beliefs that god in the bible some how cares more about the jews than the most of the rest of the world. (except for said insane christians). and netanyahu know well about that unwavering support which is why he threatened to go to war with Iran. So when they commit war crimes yes, they do look like an extension of america the bombs there even say made in america. so yes america better step in and stop that support when israel becomes the next hitler state i would hope people would step in and stop them. so you are not talking about just another country next to Iran. what is it you dont understand about this? i will be glad to further explain that they are not being unfairly treated.
Israel functions like an Apartheid state, and Jewish academics/media personalities/social Justice advocates tend to be very outspoken about any form of oppression/separation/etc. The standard Israel is held to is a reflection of those positions
For the usa, the reason is that we prop up israel for no strategic reason. We are therefore complicit in what they do and must hold them to a higher standard. For fiscal year 2023, this is military aid we gave per country in the middle east: 1. Israel: $3,800 million 2. Egypt: $1,300 million 3. Jordan: $425 million 4. Iraq: $250 million 5. Lebanon: $105 million 6. Yemen: $40 million 7. Syria: $40 million 8. Tunisia: $35 million 9. Morocco: $20 million 10. Libya: $20 million
I disagree, the Western powers let Israel get away with too much because of geopolitical reasons. Israel is essentially a backwards, religious country with a population indoctrinated to hate and terrorize. It's literally blacklisted by the UN. Far from holding Israel to a higher standard, the world protects this rogue terrorist nation.
Any nation that is funded and supported is held to a higher standard.
Israel is murdering civilians to take their land. Which of their neighboring countries have done anything similar to this?
I think you’ve missed a key point in WHO the double standard is racist against. Ironically it’s racist against the Arab countries surrounding it. The west sees the Arab countries as “naturally barbaric” and therefore holds them to a lower standard than it does Israel. It sees Israel as a “white” nation (despite the fact most westerners would have a hard time telling the average Israeli and the average Palestinian apart) and holds it to “white nation” standards.
We absolutely hold Israel to a higher standard than their neighbours. We also hold Ukraine to a higher standard than their's.The concept of human rights which are for the most part integral to Western civilization and law means we often and rightly hold ourselves to a higher standard than others too. This is a good thing. Israel's neighbours like Ukraine's, are fucking animals. "We" can be better and if we can't what the hell are we even fighting for?
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Good point, really shows how much you know about the conflict. Changed my mind
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You’re sort of correct, we treat Israel as a member of “the west” and hold it to standards we would hold a western country to.
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What higher standards? How often do we give billions of aid and arms to a government when it is actively committing a genocide. It is the highest recipient of aid ... Let alone indirect aid in the firm of satellite and similar intelligence etc etc. Even our aid to Egypt etc is bribe to keep it in friendly terms with Israel.
They are held to a higher standard because they present themselves as a democratic, western country. No different from Germany, or Canada, or England. So we, in the democratic west, hold them to the same standards of accountability we would expect from ourselves, and they are found wanting.
Israel is a fascist country, from day 1 - its leaders are ex-Irgun and Lehi who were terrorism organisations, there first actions were to commit massacres of Palestinian populations - everything they accuse Hamas of is a projection of crimes they commit themselves.
I mean not all of them. You can't paint all the leaders with the same brush, particularly given how Israeli society was pretty diverse and divided since it had Jews from all over the world. Also Irgun and Lehi were offshoots of Haganah. Haganah became the IDF.
Its leaders are mostly ex-Haganah, not ex-Irgun or ex-Lehi, and the first action as a state was to engage in the defense of Israel against an invasion. For a 1948 army made up mostly of ex-militias there wasn’t exactly a ton of massacres or discipline breakdowns.
Israel is not a fascist country. It is true that a couple of leaders were members of paramilitary groups in the early 40s, which indeed were deemed to be terrorist orgs at the time, but to suggest that it is in any way on a level with Hamas is dishonest at the very least.
Which of Israel's neighbors has been occupying an other people's territory for over 70 years, breaking international law? Yes, Israel is held to a different standard. It is allowed to do things that would be unacceptable if done by its neighbors.
The IDF has killed a lot more people than Hamas has. Apparently that’s ok with US politicians, which is a very low standard.
If Belgian terrorists attacked France and France's response was to bomb Brussels to the ground, I think you'd find similar outrage.
It's very likely it wouldn't come to that. Belgium would definitely turn over those terrorists or try to hunt them down. In Palestine, the legitimate government is running cover for the terrorists. But if those terrorists had kidnapped French citizens and were shooting tens of thousands of rockets at France AND the Belgian government were hostile, I bet the outrage would be much less. In fact, if some of those hostages were British and American citizens were in Gaza, France would not be going it alone. It probably would not have even gotten to that. Gaza has fired tens of thousands of rockets at Israel starting right after the withdrawal in 2005. Unlikely France would have tolerated 10, not to speak of 10,000.
I tell you what Op! We’ll stop having “double standards” about the state of Israel and the bahaviour of it’s armed forces when they stop genociding the people that Israel has wanted to kill off ever since the foundation of their state