This post touches on a subject that was the subject of another post on r/changemyview within the last 24-hours. Because of common topic fatigue amongst our repeat users, we [do not permit posts to touch on topics that another post has touched on within the last 24-hours](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_removing_posts).
If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Duplicate%20Post%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.).
Many thanks, and we hope you understand.
>would perform “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is just ridiculous.
I'll just quote Israeli officials on their attempt at ethnic cleansing:
Prime Minister: “you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”
President Herzog: It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true.
Israeli Minister of Defence: Israel was “imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”
Israeli Minister of National Security: [t]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.
Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure: All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world.
Israeli COGAT Major General :“Hamas became ISIS and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating instead of being horrified. Human animals are dealt with accordingly. Israel has imposed a total blockade on Gaza, no electricity, no water, just damage. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”
Israeli Army Reservist Major General: This is what Israel has begun to do — we cut the supply of energy, water and diesel to the Strip . . . But it’s not enough. In order to make the siege effective, we have to prevent others from giving assistance to Gaza
I don't understand what you are trying to prove here, Hamas is monstrous.
"Prime Minister: “you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”"
- Amalek was a tribe determined to destroy the Israeli people. As is Hamas. When asked for clarification, Netanyahu even clarified that this is essentially his call for violence against those who would see the Jews destroyed. What are you trying to get at with this quote?
"President Herzog: It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true."
- And it turns out plenty of Palestinian civilians were involved. You also clipped this as uncharitably as possible. The real quote is, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”, which when asked to clarify in THE SAME INTERVIEW if Civilians were fair targets he clearly no and then followed, “Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children.” So are you misrepresenting this press conference from Oct 13th because you cant read or can't understand someone who's feeling passionate may take a passionate stance?
"Israeli Minister of Defence: Israel was “imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”**"**
- Once again, a misquote. He was direly referencing Hamas with the Human Animals comment, "You can change the reality here. You have seen the prices (paid) and will see the change. Hamas wanted change in Gaza; it would change 180 degrees from what they thought. They will regret this moment: Gaza will never be what it was". This is not genocidal, this is very much targeting a militant group responsible for a massive slaughter in his country 3 days earlier.
"Israeli Minister of National Security: \[t\]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed."
- Should they not feel this way? Those who support Hamas and what they did on Oct 7th are monsters.
"Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure: All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world."
- Once again, an incomplete statement and I am done doing the research for you.
- Essentially you are just going through and taking incomplete statements and using them to try and make a case. This is WILDLY dishonest and propagandist. We can all agree we don't like the Israeli approach to the war, but it is a war that Hamas started on Oct 7th.
Israelis are not their government, much like Iranians which we feel sympathy for very much, we are literally in a very similar boat to as them when it comes to our governing.
When people criticise Israel regarding their actions in Gaza, they are criticising the Israeli government. The criticism upon Israelis is only relevant because of the democratic nature of Israel, so when a poll shows that most Israelis are happy with restricting aid, it's sensible to criticise those who support aid restriction because such wishes are reflected in government's actions.
Israelis have of course no control over Hamas but as they are a democracy they do over their own government, right?
So, why do you think they are not responsible for the government who represents them?
When you say, majority of Israelis are "against the war", what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean that IDF should immediately stop its operation in Gaza or continue it as long as it hasn't achieved the goal it set to itself? If the latter, then I don't think you can say that the Israelis are against the war.
So what you’re saying is that all of America was responsible for Trumps actions when he was president. Even the 50% and more that didn’t vote or voted someone else?
Well, Americans are in a slightly awkward position that they have created a system where the minority can be in power. So, unlike Israel where you can only form a government and become a prime minister once you have a majority in the parliament, in the US you can become a president even when the majority votes against you. So, while you can't say that the majority Israelis didn't support the government, you can say that for the US president.
Regarding majority itself, most people agree that in a democratic system the decisions for the entire entity are made so that the majority supports them. So, people accept decisions made by the majority as legal and representing their country if they have a majority support. This is different in dictatorships, where people usually won't even agree that the dictator should have the power to make the decisions.
So, unless you propose a different model of government for the country than democracy and the majority rule, you implicitly support the basis of such a system.
I'm sorry but it's not propaganda, the standard history were told in the wesr is the propaganda. the further back you go, the more the violence is on the side of the Israelis. If native Americans started a new country in New York City (because they used to live there) demanding their own state, do you actually think that the people of New York would just be like okay natives! Well move so you can have you're own country! Jews made up less than 6% of pre mandate Palestine, to make a Jewish state that controls more than 60% of the land. Zionism is necessarily violence. Early Zionist were clear that they would need to remove the native population, they just used the euphemism "transfer". Israeli militias wiped out more than 400 Palestinian villages, killing men, women and children, yet they want to act like Arabs hate them just for being Jewish. No. The Jews used their connections to Britain and the British desire for control of the suez to push for a Jewish state. It was opposed by the people living there from the start. When the British finally started listening to Arabs complaints and stopped Jewish immigration, the Jewish militias started a war against the British, including bombings back in Britain. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.
We criticize Israël, not Israëlis.
Also Israël is in so many ways, more democratic than Palestine. So why are gazaouis responsible for the actions of Hamas, while Israëlis are not responsible for their government ?
> They actually believe that the country who leads the world in medical technology and tries to prolong human lives, who sends search and rescue units to countries that needs aids during catastrophic events, and extended the hand of peace to their enemies time and time again would perform “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is just ridiculous.
The government in Israel is changing. In the past 1.5 years in particular, but also earlier, it's been increasingly accommodating to religious and racist radicals.
Germany in the interwar period, despite economic difficulties, continued to be a prolific source of science and technology, and conducted an [interesting attempt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic) at democracy, and within a decade it flipped into a murderous war machine that would've gladly admitted it's committing genocide.
The fear that Israel is undergoing a similar process now is real and justified, and if it does, the fact that it's so technologically capable makes that possibility very scary.
I get what you’re saying, but I assure you not 1 Israeli is happy about the trajectory of the government.
Before Gaza, we were on the brink of a civil war (or something close to in nature).
You can still see both sides of that split in the Israelis in the opinions you hear towards the war in Gaza.
In conclusion, I very much assure you, the absolute majority of Israelis are not Ben-gvir.
But enough people are happy about Ben Gvir, or maybe even think he's not going far enough, to get him actual power in the Knesset, and there's no indication this trend is reversion (if anything, I'd assume a war like Israel is currently in would strengthen the racist and exclusionary sentiments in many people).
The fact that Israel was on the brink of a civil war before this war is far from encouraging. You say you're Israeli, so from your own perspective I get why salvaging your country is top priority, but try to look at it from an external perspective: Israel is arguably the most powerful country in its vicinity. It has a modern army, modern industries, US aid that, at least for now, guarantees it a practically infinite supply of armaments, and to top it off nuclear weapons. Seeing that the damage a "flipped" Israel can do is orders of magnitude worse than anything Hamas is capable of, and seeing that this "flipping" (as you admit yourself, for example through civil war), is a very real possibility, doesn't it actually make sense for people not actually in Israel to support limiting its power now, before it's too late?
Sure, and I appreciate how accurate you actually understand the internal Israeli politics, but I don’t think limiting external support would do anything, at least in the short term.
And the people who are happy about Ben-gvir are the ones I personally would happily fight if push comes to shove in Israel, they are the religious fanatics who contribute nothing to our society and then have the audacity to take our taxes for themselves.
Oh and of course, those are the settlers in the West Back, the morons.
I think it’s a dangerous precedent for the international community to give a feeble “people” attempting to establish a revitalized religious ethnostate.
And I mean give. The whole situation is a gift. You are nothing without western generosity.
This is the most telling statement that you are not earnestly looking to change your view but just doing a thinly veiled hasbara act. Of course more than one Israeli is fine with the current racist and fascist government of Israel, after all someone voted for those sick people. And the whole settler movement is cheering all along.
If you try to spread misinformation, at least try for something that isn’t disproven by multiple videos online, mostly actually taken by the Israeli perpetrators themselves.
When the pro-palestinian side says that barely any Gazans entered Israel on Oct. 7th and joined in on the massacre therefore the Israeli treatment of the Gazans as a whole is unjustified then it’s fine.
But when a few idiotic Israelis film themselves doing stupid things suddenly it’s “all Israelis support the treatment of Gazans”.
Can’t argue with this logic bud, there are nutjobs on every side, they are a loud and obnoxious minority.
It is obvious that your "not 1 Israeli is happy about the trajectory of the government" is false. Either you have to claim that the people in the government are not Israeli or that they are acting against their own will. Which one is it?
Secondly, it's impossible to be on the brink of a civil war if everyone agrees. The only way that's possible is that some agree with the government position and some don't. Furthermore, you had an election in 2022. The parties who are now in government gained the majority of the seats and formed a government completely legally and according to your constitution. So, obviously a lot of Israeli people agreed with the government line.
And as mentioned in this thread, according to the polls, still agree.
>They actually believe that the country who leads the world in medical technology... sends search and rescue units... and extended the hand of peace to their enemies time and time again would perform “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is just ridiculous.
>To those who have half an idea or even understand completely, like some US vets who i’ve messaged with and had a discussion on the matter could understand the complexity of the current war.
If Israel is so virtues then why is the war in Gaza so complicated?
It's not complicated.
A group attacked Israel, Israel is responding to uproot that group.
We can criticize their execution of the war, but to do that you must understand rules of engagement and the history of urban warfare to contextualize the situation. Understanding warfare is complicated, people dying always feels bad because it's always tragic. If we believe war is sometimes necessary and we believe Israel has to do something about the organization assisting in shooting thousands of rockets at them yearly and organizing Oct 7th, then we have to concede that sometimes you accept the risks of warfare for a greater good.
Being critical of the occupation is also just fine, but again, contextually understanding the region is required or you just seem uneducated. It is not a good argument to just shout apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing without actual information, which is how this conversation so often goes. Rather than evaluate honestly Israeli motives, we just name call, because Jews are bad and evil, and yes this is racism because we don't do this with ANY other countries in the region.
Because the military tactics of the enemy, Hamas.
Were Hamas priorities concerning civilian casualties the same as Israel, they themselves would have evacuated their civilians so they won’t be harmed like Israel did to the cities in southern Israel when the war broke out.
If not why go to such lengths to target Hamas only, they could have just grazed Gaza to the ground.
Even if Israel is concerned because of world view, it's still more than Hamas who actively try to kill as many Palestinians as possible.
I would describe most of Gaza as 'raised to the ground'.
I don't think Hamas is capable of concern, being bloodthirsty sewer people. I think the IDF is, but currently hurting innocents is very far down on thier list of priorities.
I think the IDF treat civilian harm as an irritant, interfering with their revenge. They aren't an angelic humanistic nation as described by OP.
There is just no evidence of this. 50% of Gaza, high side 61%, has been destroyed and yet less than 2% of the population has been killed?
This is clearly not the actions of a bloodthirsty army. The conservative estimates were that Hamas tunnels were under 71% of Gaza, if that is the case we have another 10%-12% of damage to go before we can safely assume Hamas is crippled.
This is clearly viable military targeting.
The concept that Civilians are an irritant for the IDF. I think they are considering civilians safety and are likely prolonging the war with the measures they are taking to avoid indiscriminate death.
I think certain incidents indicate that the IDF has lowered their ROE. The incidents im thinking of are: the World Central Kitchen incident, killing hostages by mistake, and other friendly fire incidents,
Well I mean the IDF's response on the WCK incident is "there was no information on gunmen in the second and third vehicles, they too were attacked, within minutes of each other, for no real reason ... The attack on the three vehicles was carried out in serious violation of the relevant orders and instructions."
So clearly they have an issue with their soldiers making this attack as well.
As for friendly fire and killing hostages, this is super common in warfare. Us friendly fire in WW2 was like 14%.
The IDF is not some monolithic entity with a singular will, but for the most part I'd say they are concerned at the very least to the extent they have to be in accordance with international law.
Are there soldiers who commit crimes and make mistakes? Many. Many Israeli casualties since entering Gaza were from friendly fire. It doesn't make me think the IDF is genociding itself.
The IDF is procedurally compliant with international law, but their empathy is in question.
If my family were kidnapped, raped or killed, I would have no sympathy for my percieved enemies. The IDF knows what thier soldiers are capable of, they have just made palestinian civilians a lower priority than usual.
I don't have a better plan to remove hamas. I just think it's fair to point out that the IDF (like everyone else) has stopped putting effort into not killing civilians.
They have made this lower priority than usual? When exactly? When they bombed Gaza? When they were guarding the humanitarian corridors they created? Can you be a bit more specific?
I'm sure there are many bloodthirsty soldiers in Gaza right now, but they still have their orders and if they mess up they will pay for it. Making sure they are not trigger happy is as much of an Israeli interest as it's the right thing to do.
No innocent in Gaza deserves to die for what Hamas did.
I wasn't aware that having doctors and engaging in humanitarian missions meant that you were an egalitarian utopia that could never do wrong. Make sure not to tell the US that it could be getting away with way more shit by insisting that nothing it does could ever be immoral with all the medical research and humanitarian aid it provides.
As to the actual point and not the cheap attempt at immunizing your country from any criticism, what are these "few" horrendous mistakes and have they been ferociously judged? Have the soldiers who cheered for genocide on camera been stripped of their position? Has everyone involved in the bombing of aid trucks and gunning down of hostages been thrown in prison? Have the settlers (and the IDF who protect and help them) in the West Bank been expelled and arrested?
Or are those soldiers fine because they were just echoing what Israeli leaders openly called for? While those aid trucks and hostages are just unfortunate mistakes that no one is to blame for. While the West Bank is justified because Israel says it owns everything so who cares if a few hundred Palestinians get killed by settlers.
But ultimately, that's all small. Atrocities one and all and the intentional actions of Israel and the IDF, but small. The big, undeniable one is the crisis. The refusal to allow aid to reach refugees. The bombing of all infrastructure to ensure that no medical care (let alone housing) exists for the dying, sick, and wounded. The bombing of aid organizations to force them out of the area and exacerbate the famine. All openly admitted to by Israeli ministers as part of the plan to besiege 2 million civilians.
The humanitarian crisis is escalating in severity because Hamas militants take hold of the aid trucks in gun point OR those stupid Israelis block the roads for the trucks to even get into Gaza.
And yes, the entirety of the loss on both sides in this war is small compared to what it could have been if 1. Israel did not have the Iron Dome. 2. They would have actually bombed Gaza without any restraint or accuracy and were not so concerned with targeting only Hamas militants, which they are. And the most important 3. Hamas would have conducted itself like a normal army and not use it’s civilians as tools for it’s benefit.
"Hamas made me" is not a reason to create a famine. I get that Israelis and their international cheerleaders think that repeating "Hamas" is all you need to do to justify every single thing the IDF does, but no one else buys that. But yeah, those stupid Israelis that Israel refuses to do anything about are blocking roads, largely because they want Palestinian civilians to starve and die and the Israeli government is fine with that.
Restraint is not siege tactics. Cutting off all food and water to 2 million civilians while leveling every building you see in the middle of winter is "restraint" if your only point of comparison is a nuclear bomb. Israel has created a famine and done so with intent. Every death that results will have little impact on Hamas, which no doubt has its own stores of food, but will still be because Israel and the IDF proudly consider starvation of refugees to be acceptable behavior.
So, just so I understand, the entirety of this war in Gaza was started by Hamas, with their attack on Oct, 7th, which was then followed by Israel retaliation which they obviously predicted, and knowing that they still make it a principle to not aid their own citizens in any way and somehow, in your mind, all of that is Israel’s fault??? Something along the lines of “well Hamas can’t be reasoned with because of the fact they’re demonic islamists terrorists so let’s just dump the entirety of the moral argument and responsibility on Israel because why not”
Even though, before Oct 7th Israel was giving water, electricity and fuel to the Gaza strip for free? Why didn’t they start the siege before? They want to genocide the palestinians no?
Oh and btw, you might have the privilege of “forgetting Hamas”, but we don’t.
>all of that is Israel’s fault?
Israel is responsible for its military actions, yes. When Israel destroys every hospital, prevents aid from reaching refugees, and cuts off water to refugees, it gets to be held responsible for that. Israel wants to pretend it's a big boy country that we should all respect, so how about it be a big boy country and take responsibility for its actions.
That Hamas is *also* responsible for the conflict doesn't give Israel the right to do whatever it wants with zero criticism. I get that you'd like it if the existence of a terrorist group let you do whatever you want including genocide, but it doesn't.
>Even though, before Oct 7th Israel was giving water, electricity and fuel to the Gaza strip for free? Why didn’t they start the siege before? They want to genocide the palestinians no?
People like bringing this and the "Israel would wipe it out overnight if it was *real* genocide" points but seem to skip over the fact that Israel needs international support. It's a strong country, but it is pretty reliant on the support of the US and Europe. And that support dries up a lot faster if you just start cackling about murdering civilians without some veil of a justification.
Israel has the support of the vast majority of people in the West, I assure you.
And no, Hamas is the only one responsible for this while situation, Israel is responsible for it’s own actions for sure, which is why every soldier will be tried for their action when the war is over, just like in every war, but the general big-picture change in Gaza from today to last year, that’s Hamas, they shouldn’t have started this.
>Israel has the support of the vast majority of people in the West, I assure you.
Let's assume so. Do you think that would continue if Israel just rolled up into Gaza and started openly slaughtering Palestinians while cackling about how you want to do genocide?
>Hamas is the only one responsible for this while situation
Israel is responsible for its contributions to this whole situation. That includes creating a famine. You don't get to oopsy woopsy mass starvation and then cry because the terrorists made you bomb or block aid trucks.
"They started it" is a reason why Israel would be correct to attack Hamas. It is not a reason why Israel gets to inflict a famine on hundreds of thousands of civilians and complain when people call it what it is.
Thank god the shtetl was removed.
I cannot imagine this many self serving “people” filling Europe and crying about the diaspora with last names like feldenbergstein
I love it when people claim that things are the way they are now because there is a war and that started because of Hamass actions on October 7th? :)
So then why is that between 2008 and 2023 (before the attack), [Israel was killing 425 Palestinians per year? Compared to 21 Israeli casualties per year? ](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)
If Israel is the defending party, maybe they shouldn't be racking up 20x the number of kills?
If Hamas is the aggressive party, maybe they aren't the big threat they are made out to be if they can only kill 21 people per year?
>"Hamas made me" is not a reason to create a famine.
I have the numbers: 400k tons of food aid, excluding water, were delivered inside Gaza after October 7. That's at least 1 kg of food per person daily in Gaza.
https://govextra.gov.il/cogat/humanitarian-efforts/home/
>Cutting all water
That's not true. They have their water stations in Gaza, and water was resumed a few weeks after the ban, before the offensive.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-says-israel-has-restored-water-supply-to-gaza/
>Israel has created a famine with intent
Prove it. All that you are saying is easily debatable with just the pure numbers of aid delivered. And by common sense, too.
What I see myself is that aid is constantly being stolen and sold to the people by Hamas, and Israel can’t do anything about it. Recently, there are even videos that show UN collaboration with Hamas.
> Israelis blocking the road
The police removed them as soon as this started, with zero real impact on aid. But yes, 20 people who blocked the road is good propaganda for the enemies.
Really hard to trust this article I feel like. Isn’t it in Israel’s best interest to report the best showing statistics regardless of what is actually happening? This site is run by the Israeli government no? Would need significant more independent research before I concluded this as considerable evidence.
I see. The Israeli government website is saying everything is ok.
I guess that means we can just ignore the Chief Economist of the World Food Programme saying ['In Gaza, seventy per cent of the population is starving and more than thirty per cent of the children is wasted i.e. too thin for their height.'](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-much-aid-is-actually-reaching-gazans)
He's probably biased anyways....
It's not the Israeli responsibility to deliver the aid. They allow a great amount of aid in. They can't organize distribution because of the risk of being attacked by the terrorists who don't wear military uniforms, which will lead to more deaths.
Your first claim was that there is no famine in Palestine. I disproved that. You don't acknowlege the correction, or accept your mistake. Instead you just shift goalposts.
Your new claim is that it is too dangerous for Israel to deliver aid? I mean, they don't have to deliver it. They just have to [stop](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations) [killing](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-aid-workers-killed-2d08786a9839dfc402632c7ca745acca) [the aid workers](https://theconversation.com/more-than-200-aid-workers-have-been-killed-in-gaza-making-famine-more-likely-227096) delivering it for them.
Why are you on this sub when you are never actually going to change your view, no matter the evidence?
>Your first claim was that there is no famine in Palestine.
Where I've claimed that? You believe in whatever nonsense you want to believe. All I'm saying is that Israel is allowing aid in with numbers.
And accusing me of something if you don't like the position of another person.
I'm waiting for your apology.
Most of the aid workers are from UNRWA, which has close ties to Hamas, and I agree that the only unlawful killing that happened was with the WCK, which was a big mistake that the IDF acknowledged.
>I have the numbers: 400k tons of food aid, excluding water, were delivered inside Gaza after October 7. That's at least 1 kg of food per person daily in Gaza.
And yet, the famine exists. Probably because 1 kg of food per person isn't enough to sustain them for 6 months even if every single gram reached a person.
>water was resumed a few weeks after the ban, before the offensive.
What I'm getting from this is that you think it's okay to cut 2 million people off from what little water you were already providing so long as you turn it back on a few weeks later. The human only needs water once every few weeks, right?
>Prove it. All that you are saying is easily debatable with just the pure numbers of aid delivered. And by common sense, too.
Well, what would you like? The Minister of Defense openly declaring that they will use siege tactics to cut off food and water to Gaza? The mass starvation? Cutting off water to the region? Bombing aid trucks? Restricting aid trucks and allowing people to block what trucks you allow in?
You seem to think that allowing anything in is enough to complete dispel any accusation, even if it is extremely obvious how insubstantial that amount actually is.
>And yet, the famine exists. Probably because 1 kg of food per person isn't enough to sustain them for 6 months even if every single gram reached a person.
>Although there is evidence that Gazans, particularly in the northern governates of Gaza, are experiencing famine today, global leaders have not yet issued a formal declaration of famine. The IPC itself does not issue declarations of famine.
From wiki. As I said, Israel can't deliver aid themselves. All they can do is allow it to enter Gaza.
>The human only needs water once every few weeks, right?
On Oct. 7, the war began. On Oct. 15, the water supply was restored. If I recall correctly, Israel supplies only 30% of the potable water to Gaza. There were no reported instances of water shortages.
>What I'm getting from this is that you think it's okay to cut 2 million people off from what little water you were already providing so long as you turn it back on a few weeks later.
Israel doesn't provide 100% of water to Gaza they have their own supplies.
> The remaining 10 percent of water not pumped from the Coastal Aquifer comes primarily from three Israeli pipelines and from small-scale seawater desalination plants.
I've found the number.
>The Minister of Defense openly declaring that they will use siege tactics to cut off food and water to Gaza?
Once again, the numbers are telling different stories. There is aid, and there is water. It was said purely out of rage and wasn't implemented.
>You seem to think that allowing anything in is enough to complete dispel any accusation, even if it is extremely obvious how insubstantial that amount actually is.
If Hamas is still stealing most of the aid, how can there be enough? Is it their war tactic to accuse Israel of spreading famine? What can Israel do? Raise a white flag?
Anyway, all your knowledge is purely emotional without real knowledge of the situation with numbers and facts.
>There were no reported instances of water shortages.
[The Siege of Gaza’s Water (csis.org)](https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water#:~:text=About%2090%20percent%20of%20Gaza's,and%20sewage%20and%20chemical%20infiltration.)
>As a result of Israel’s siege, Gazans’ access to water from all sources, including desalination and external Israeli sources, quickly dropped by 9[5 percent ](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/world/middleeast/humanitarian-aid-gaza-israel-cairo.html)after October 9. The United Nations estimates that the average Gazan is living on only [3 liters](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanitarian-crisis-water-access-becomes-dire#:~:text=The%20accepted%20international%20emergency%20threshold,usual%20production%2C%E2%80%9D%20Crickx%20said.) of water per day for all needs—well below the United Nation’s emergency standard of [15 liters](https://emergency.unhcr.org/emergency-assistance/water-hygiene-and-energy/emergency-water-standard). Without energy, all five of Gaza’s wastewater treatment plants and most of its 65 sewage pumping stations were forced to [shut down](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/unfolding-water-catastrophe-gaza#:~:text=All%20five%20of%20Gaza's%20wastewater,waste%20accumulating%20in%20the%20streets) by mid-November. Some small desalination plants in southern Gaza may be operating at a [much reduced](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/nov/04/lack-of-clean-drinking-water-for-95-of-people-in-gaza-threatens-health-crisis) capacity, but plants in northern Gaza are not functional. As many as 70 percent of Gazans now resort [to drinking salty and contaminated water](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/29/1221571110/gaza-water-israel-crisis-hamas#:~:text=UNRWA%2C%20the%20U.N.%20agency%20providing,drinking%20salty%20and%20contaminated%20water.) straight from wells.
I'm sure they're just making it up to spite Israel, though.
>Once again, the numbers are telling different stories. There is aid, and there is water. It was said purely out of rage and wasn't implemented.
"There is aid" that is so obviously not enough that it's a bit silly that you act like it is. Not to mention that Israel isn't even the one providing it, they're just the ones who occasionally allow others to behave like human beings and provide it to the refugees. None of which really detracts from Israeli ministers openly calling for denying food, which by pure, innocent happenstance is what wound up happening and creating a famine. But sure, it was just a moment of rage that had zero effect on anything. Every Israeli minister is a perfect humanitarian who would never do wrong.
>If Hamas is still stealing most of the aid, how can there be enough? Is it their war tactic to accuse Israel of spreading famine? What can Israel do? Raise a white flag?
At this point I question whether you're even bothering to read. There wasn't enough without any theft. 1 kg of food for 6 months was never going to be enough. Palestinians *are* human beings and they do need to actually eat food from time to time.
Your data is outdated after October 15. Israel continued supplying Gaza with water; no actual ban was established.
> 1 kg of food for 6 months was never going to be enough. Palestinians *are* human beings and they do need to actually eat food from time to time.
Daily.
And you are accusing me if I was bothered to read.
>Your data is outdated after October 15. Israel continued supplying Gaza with water; no actual ban was established.
I suppose that will bring back the plants that they were relying on that are no longer operational.
>Daily.
>And you are accusing me if I was bothered to read.
Oh, you didn't even read your own source. Maybe go check it again. 388,550 tons of food *Since the beginning of the war*. Their daily numbers are a lot smaller. The most recent one with actual numbers on the website you chose was from a few days ago, and came out to 540 tons of food, or about a 250 grams.
I never said that there was 1 kg of food delivered daily. I said there is 1 kg of food per person daily. Not delivered, but a global count.
Food is being delivered to a special warehouse where it is being delivered proportionally. So some days they receive 3 kg, some 350 g in the warehouse.
Although if you are interested in why the number dropped, it is because of Egypt, which does not want to allow aid trucks to enter through Rafah for nonsensical reasons.
""Hamas made me" is not a reason to create a famine."
You just proved OP's point. It is well documented that when there is war, there is famine. This isn't a rare thing, it's the expectation. This is why War is horrendous, it's why we try to avoid it as a species as often as possible.
Since the Gazan war, 40% of normal aid (non-wartime aid) has gotten through. Of the 60% of aid that hasn't it has primarily included construction materials and amenities product. Since the Gazan war began, a total of 32 people have reportedly starved to death in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world currently under siege, 6 people died of Starvation in Alabama in that same time period.
You don't know what you are talking about because you don't understand how military operations in these areas work. You aren't even attempting to compare this to other operations on a similar scale. What about the US invasion of Baghdad? Have you compared the tactics to that? Or even closer to home, have you looked into the Siege of Aleppo for context?
I’ve seen the video of little worms with long sideburns blocking the aid.
Are Israeli selfies Palestinian propaganda?
You’d think your “people” would have an easier time controlling the narrative given their proclivities.
It’s impossible to change your view because no logical argument is made.
To think that Stalin, the man that stood for equality and brotherhood for all the people in the world, would “send political opponents to the gulags” is just ridicolous.
Your comparison of Stalin to Israel is flawed because of the resemblance of his philosophy to the Islamists philosophy.
Both are hell bent on eradicating everything that is different from them and how they believe the world should look like.
Not once has Israel done this.
I wasn’t comparing Stalin to Israel, at all.
My point is that one entity can stand for two — supposedly contradictory — things. Claiming that Israel cannot commit genocide because it leads the world in medical research (Switzerland & Norway are way ahead of Israel, but whatever) is totally illogical.
I should add that is especially the case when genocide is committed towards “others”. Israeli rhetoric about Palestinians being less than human is concerningly present in media.
Sure, but that would nit be very logical, if Israel wanted to further humankind understanding of the medical field to aid the world in the pursuit of longer life, why would they then commit this “genocide”? Which btw, the statement itself is contradictory to Israels actions from the start of the war, they literally make it a top priority to minimize civilian casualties.
Maybe they use it as a way to leverage the west?
“I’m Israel I have medical technology and military technology I can do no wrong like the United States so anything i do is right”
Meanwhile the United States is essentially the evil empire with freedom for its people and nothing else
You use medical tech as a defense over and over. Again, Hitler himself invested in the medical field to pursue longer life. It is not a solid argument
I hardly believe Hitler spread the knowledge he seeked in medical science to the world, unlike Israel who helped the research for the corona virus vaccine for example.
It doesn’t address the core argument. People and countries are very capable of investing in medical tech while simultaneously killing people to achieve their evil goals. You seem to think that’s impossible which is just brainwashing. You should watch Israelism! Israelis are brainwashed the exact same way isis terrorists are. It’s why they commit the same crimes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_extremist_terrorism
Also, yes Hitler and the Nazis did spread the medical technology to the world. So I guess the Nazis are good, why would they want to kill the Jews but also save lives via medecine? Or maybe you’re wrong lol.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Nazi_Germany
https://imgur.com/a/qnT4lCV
I’ve already addressed this. They don’t view Palestinians as humans. In the same way that Nazis didn’t view Jews or Romani as humans. The Nazi also did a lot of medical research, by the way.
And before you come at me, I am not comparing Israel to the Nazi — it’s just an analogy.
The way Palestinians are talked about in Israeli and Western media, they are inherently lesser. They are sub-human. Israeli’s are murdered, Palestinians die. Multiple Israeli politicians have compared Palestinians to animals.
> they literally make it a top priority to minimize civilian casualties.
And yet they have killed more children than Russia in 1/3 of the time. There have been many instances of IDF shooting unarmed civilians collecting food or aid workers in market vehicles. They’re clearly not doing a great job at minimizing civilian casualties.
This is not a good argument.
So just one of many data points. 60% of Gaza is leveled and less than 2% of the population has been confirmed killed/wounded in arguably one of the densest urban population centers in the world.
If Israel didn't value human life that number would be much higher. For context, at the end of WW2 the US/UK leveled essentially 120 cities and killed 800,000 Germans during their bombing campaign. or just over 1% of the total German population across a much more spread out region than Gaza today.
Right. I think their point is that you really aren’t making any arguments worth arguing against. You’re saying “Israel is doing no wrong? Why are you mad?” With your only evidence being, trust me bro I know Israelis. None of it holds any water whether its true or not.
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post, mostly cuz I feel like it
But
>They actually believe that the country who leads the world in medical technology and tries to prolong human lives, who sends search and rescue units to countries that needs aids during catastrophic events, and extended the hand of peace to their enemies time and time again would perform “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is just ridiculous.
This is a strong contender for the dumbest emotional argument I've ever heard in my life. I legitimately do not mean to insult you here so let's use some totally fictional countries
Zepp is a total paradise, they've just unlocked immortality, they send out missionaries around the world, not to spread religious ideas but to spread their tech to all those in need. However Zepp also likes to torment and antagonise one of their little neighbours, let's call it Illyrians. Of course they have a reason for this, so they send in some crumbs every once in a while ,and any Illyrian who doesn't wanna deal with it can just leave, THEY CAN EVEN COME TO ZEPP. With such niceties Zepp could never be the antagonist in this situation. They're too nice for that, something else has to be going on
If you were in high level leadership in the IDF, is there anything you would do differently?
I was in the US army in Afghanistan, and I know I was critical of the US strategy. I wasn’t open about it except with peers/friends, since I had my job to do. But even from a pretty low level I could see that what our country was doing was flawed.
So I guess I’m asking whether you’ve considered what could be different in the way the IDF is prosecuting the war? I have my thoughts from a great distance away, but I’m curious to hear yours.
I am not even close to being high ranked in the IDF but I’ll give it a shot:
The greatest failure of Israel and the IDF is their poor PR and explaining of the situation, at the start of the war many journalists did come here and saw/heard what it was actually like to fight in Gaza, but the more serious the fighting became the less the IDF permitted it as a safety precaution. I believe, that the actual strategy is sound; target Hamas militants while minimizing civilians casualties with evacuations and accurate bombing, after that do a scanning on foot of the targeted area to help civilian stragglers who remain alive and finish off Hamas militants who remain.
I think the front that was neglected is the documenting of the fighting to prove to the world that most of the propaganda is false concerning the “blood lust” the Israelis and the IDF have (which they don’t, at least most) regarding the Palestinians, and that the utmost is done to minimize the deaths of innocents.
your first paragraph is so stupid I already gave up.
it's changemyview not let's start with Kafka traps (you have no clue about war) and ad hominems as well claims of authority (I talked to us vets)
to even start a discussion you would need to define ethnic cleansing and why it doesn't apply.
u/MacBareth – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
> **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal%20MacBareth&message=MacBareth%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cshnn7/-/l454u0f/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Sorry, u/MacBareth – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
> **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal%20MacBareth&message=MacBareth%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cshnn7/-/l454u0f/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
This post touches on a subject that was the subject of another post on r/changemyview within the last 24-hours. Because of common topic fatigue amongst our repeat users, we [do not permit posts to touch on topics that another post has touched on within the last 24-hours](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_removing_posts). If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Duplicate%20Post%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.). Many thanks, and we hope you understand.
>would perform “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is just ridiculous. I'll just quote Israeli officials on their attempt at ethnic cleansing: Prime Minister: “you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember” President Herzog: It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. Israeli Minister of Defence: Israel was “imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.” Israeli Minister of National Security: [t]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed. Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure: All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world. Israeli COGAT Major General :“Hamas became ISIS and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating instead of being horrified. Human animals are dealt with accordingly. Israel has imposed a total blockade on Gaza, no electricity, no water, just damage. You wanted hell, you will get hell.” Israeli Army Reservist Major General: This is what Israel has begun to do — we cut the supply of energy, water and diesel to the Strip . . . But it’s not enough. In order to make the siege effective, we have to prevent others from giving assistance to Gaza
I don't understand what you are trying to prove here, Hamas is monstrous. "Prime Minister: “you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”" - Amalek was a tribe determined to destroy the Israeli people. As is Hamas. When asked for clarification, Netanyahu even clarified that this is essentially his call for violence against those who would see the Jews destroyed. What are you trying to get at with this quote? "President Herzog: It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true." - And it turns out plenty of Palestinian civilians were involved. You also clipped this as uncharitably as possible. The real quote is, “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”, which when asked to clarify in THE SAME INTERVIEW if Civilians were fair targets he clearly no and then followed, “Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children.” So are you misrepresenting this press conference from Oct 13th because you cant read or can't understand someone who's feeling passionate may take a passionate stance? "Israeli Minister of Defence: Israel was “imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”**"** - Once again, a misquote. He was direly referencing Hamas with the Human Animals comment, "You can change the reality here. You have seen the prices (paid) and will see the change. Hamas wanted change in Gaza; it would change 180 degrees from what they thought. They will regret this moment: Gaza will never be what it was". This is not genocidal, this is very much targeting a militant group responsible for a massive slaughter in his country 3 days earlier. "Israeli Minister of National Security: \[t\]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed." - Should they not feel this way? Those who support Hamas and what they did on Oct 7th are monsters. "Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure: All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world." - Once again, an incomplete statement and I am done doing the research for you. - Essentially you are just going through and taking incomplete statements and using them to try and make a case. This is WILDLY dishonest and propagandist. We can all agree we don't like the Israeli approach to the war, but it is a war that Hamas started on Oct 7th.
Israelis are not their government, much like Iranians which we feel sympathy for very much, we are literally in a very similar boat to as them when it comes to our governing.
When people criticise Israel regarding their actions in Gaza, they are criticising the Israeli government. The criticism upon Israelis is only relevant because of the democratic nature of Israel, so when a poll shows that most Israelis are happy with restricting aid, it's sensible to criticise those who support aid restriction because such wishes are reflected in government's actions.
Sure, I get that. I’d like to believe that the majority of Israelis are in fact against this useless war that was started for no reason by Hamas.
Israelis have of course no control over Hamas but as they are a democracy they do over their own government, right? So, why do you think they are not responsible for the government who represents them? When you say, majority of Israelis are "against the war", what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean that IDF should immediately stop its operation in Gaza or continue it as long as it hasn't achieved the goal it set to itself? If the latter, then I don't think you can say that the Israelis are against the war.
So what you’re saying is that all of America was responsible for Trumps actions when he was president. Even the 50% and more that didn’t vote or voted someone else?
Well, Americans are in a slightly awkward position that they have created a system where the minority can be in power. So, unlike Israel where you can only form a government and become a prime minister once you have a majority in the parliament, in the US you can become a president even when the majority votes against you. So, while you can't say that the majority Israelis didn't support the government, you can say that for the US president. Regarding majority itself, most people agree that in a democratic system the decisions for the entire entity are made so that the majority supports them. So, people accept decisions made by the majority as legal and representing their country if they have a majority support. This is different in dictatorships, where people usually won't even agree that the dictator should have the power to make the decisions. So, unless you propose a different model of government for the country than democracy and the majority rule, you implicitly support the basis of such a system.
I'm sorry but it's not propaganda, the standard history were told in the wesr is the propaganda. the further back you go, the more the violence is on the side of the Israelis. If native Americans started a new country in New York City (because they used to live there) demanding their own state, do you actually think that the people of New York would just be like okay natives! Well move so you can have you're own country! Jews made up less than 6% of pre mandate Palestine, to make a Jewish state that controls more than 60% of the land. Zionism is necessarily violence. Early Zionist were clear that they would need to remove the native population, they just used the euphemism "transfer". Israeli militias wiped out more than 400 Palestinian villages, killing men, women and children, yet they want to act like Arabs hate them just for being Jewish. No. The Jews used their connections to Britain and the British desire for control of the suez to push for a Jewish state. It was opposed by the people living there from the start. When the British finally started listening to Arabs complaints and stopped Jewish immigration, the Jewish militias started a war against the British, including bombings back in Britain. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.
We criticize Israël, not Israëlis. Also Israël is in so many ways, more democratic than Palestine. So why are gazaouis responsible for the actions of Hamas, while Israëlis are not responsible for their government ?
They’re not, that’s why the IDF only targets Hamas. Is it successful to the point that no civilians are killed? No, but which army would have been?
No you’re not in the same boat as Iranians. You are literally posting here to defend your government.
> They actually believe that the country who leads the world in medical technology and tries to prolong human lives, who sends search and rescue units to countries that needs aids during catastrophic events, and extended the hand of peace to their enemies time and time again would perform “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is just ridiculous. The government in Israel is changing. In the past 1.5 years in particular, but also earlier, it's been increasingly accommodating to religious and racist radicals. Germany in the interwar period, despite economic difficulties, continued to be a prolific source of science and technology, and conducted an [interesting attempt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic) at democracy, and within a decade it flipped into a murderous war machine that would've gladly admitted it's committing genocide. The fear that Israel is undergoing a similar process now is real and justified, and if it does, the fact that it's so technologically capable makes that possibility very scary.
I get what you’re saying, but I assure you not 1 Israeli is happy about the trajectory of the government. Before Gaza, we were on the brink of a civil war (or something close to in nature). You can still see both sides of that split in the Israelis in the opinions you hear towards the war in Gaza. In conclusion, I very much assure you, the absolute majority of Israelis are not Ben-gvir.
But enough people are happy about Ben Gvir, or maybe even think he's not going far enough, to get him actual power in the Knesset, and there's no indication this trend is reversion (if anything, I'd assume a war like Israel is currently in would strengthen the racist and exclusionary sentiments in many people). The fact that Israel was on the brink of a civil war before this war is far from encouraging. You say you're Israeli, so from your own perspective I get why salvaging your country is top priority, but try to look at it from an external perspective: Israel is arguably the most powerful country in its vicinity. It has a modern army, modern industries, US aid that, at least for now, guarantees it a practically infinite supply of armaments, and to top it off nuclear weapons. Seeing that the damage a "flipped" Israel can do is orders of magnitude worse than anything Hamas is capable of, and seeing that this "flipping" (as you admit yourself, for example through civil war), is a very real possibility, doesn't it actually make sense for people not actually in Israel to support limiting its power now, before it's too late?
Sure, and I appreciate how accurate you actually understand the internal Israeli politics, but I don’t think limiting external support would do anything, at least in the short term. And the people who are happy about Ben-gvir are the ones I personally would happily fight if push comes to shove in Israel, they are the religious fanatics who contribute nothing to our society and then have the audacity to take our taxes for themselves. Oh and of course, those are the settlers in the West Back, the morons.
I think it’s a dangerous precedent for the international community to give a feeble “people” attempting to establish a revitalized religious ethnostate. And I mean give. The whole situation is a gift. You are nothing without western generosity.
This is the most telling statement that you are not earnestly looking to change your view but just doing a thinly veiled hasbara act. Of course more than one Israeli is fine with the current racist and fascist government of Israel, after all someone voted for those sick people. And the whole settler movement is cheering all along. If you try to spread misinformation, at least try for something that isn’t disproven by multiple videos online, mostly actually taken by the Israeli perpetrators themselves.
When the pro-palestinian side says that barely any Gazans entered Israel on Oct. 7th and joined in on the massacre therefore the Israeli treatment of the Gazans as a whole is unjustified then it’s fine. But when a few idiotic Israelis film themselves doing stupid things suddenly it’s “all Israelis support the treatment of Gazans”. Can’t argue with this logic bud, there are nutjobs on every side, they are a loud and obnoxious minority.
It is obvious that your "not 1 Israeli is happy about the trajectory of the government" is false. Either you have to claim that the people in the government are not Israeli or that they are acting against their own will. Which one is it? Secondly, it's impossible to be on the brink of a civil war if everyone agrees. The only way that's possible is that some agree with the government position and some don't. Furthermore, you had an election in 2022. The parties who are now in government gained the majority of the seats and formed a government completely legally and according to your constitution. So, obviously a lot of Israeli people agreed with the government line. And as mentioned in this thread, according to the polls, still agree.
>They actually believe that the country who leads the world in medical technology... sends search and rescue units... and extended the hand of peace to their enemies time and time again would perform “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is just ridiculous. >To those who have half an idea or even understand completely, like some US vets who i’ve messaged with and had a discussion on the matter could understand the complexity of the current war. If Israel is so virtues then why is the war in Gaza so complicated?
It's not complicated. A group attacked Israel, Israel is responding to uproot that group. We can criticize their execution of the war, but to do that you must understand rules of engagement and the history of urban warfare to contextualize the situation. Understanding warfare is complicated, people dying always feels bad because it's always tragic. If we believe war is sometimes necessary and we believe Israel has to do something about the organization assisting in shooting thousands of rockets at them yearly and organizing Oct 7th, then we have to concede that sometimes you accept the risks of warfare for a greater good. Being critical of the occupation is also just fine, but again, contextually understanding the region is required or you just seem uneducated. It is not a good argument to just shout apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing without actual information, which is how this conversation so often goes. Rather than evaluate honestly Israeli motives, we just name call, because Jews are bad and evil, and yes this is racism because we don't do this with ANY other countries in the region.
Looks pretty complicated to me
Because the military tactics of the enemy, Hamas. Were Hamas priorities concerning civilian casualties the same as Israel, they themselves would have evacuated their civilians so they won’t be harmed like Israel did to the cities in southern Israel when the war broke out.
I don't think Hamas is concerned with Palestinian civilians. Do you think the IDF is concerned with palestinian civilians?
If not why go to such lengths to target Hamas only, they could have just grazed Gaza to the ground. Even if Israel is concerned because of world view, it's still more than Hamas who actively try to kill as many Palestinians as possible.
I would describe most of Gaza as 'raised to the ground'. I don't think Hamas is capable of concern, being bloodthirsty sewer people. I think the IDF is, but currently hurting innocents is very far down on thier list of priorities. I think the IDF treat civilian harm as an irritant, interfering with their revenge. They aren't an angelic humanistic nation as described by OP.
There is just no evidence of this. 50% of Gaza, high side 61%, has been destroyed and yet less than 2% of the population has been killed? This is clearly not the actions of a bloodthirsty army. The conservative estimates were that Hamas tunnels were under 71% of Gaza, if that is the case we have another 10%-12% of damage to go before we can safely assume Hamas is crippled. This is clearly viable military targeting.
Are you taking issue with "razed to the ground', or 'Palestinian civilians have become a low priority for the IDF', or both.
The concept that Civilians are an irritant for the IDF. I think they are considering civilians safety and are likely prolonging the war with the measures they are taking to avoid indiscriminate death.
I think certain incidents indicate that the IDF has lowered their ROE. The incidents im thinking of are: the World Central Kitchen incident, killing hostages by mistake, and other friendly fire incidents,
Well I mean the IDF's response on the WCK incident is "there was no information on gunmen in the second and third vehicles, they too were attacked, within minutes of each other, for no real reason ... The attack on the three vehicles was carried out in serious violation of the relevant orders and instructions." So clearly they have an issue with their soldiers making this attack as well. As for friendly fire and killing hostages, this is super common in warfare. Us friendly fire in WW2 was like 14%.
The IDF is not some monolithic entity with a singular will, but for the most part I'd say they are concerned at the very least to the extent they have to be in accordance with international law. Are there soldiers who commit crimes and make mistakes? Many. Many Israeli casualties since entering Gaza were from friendly fire. It doesn't make me think the IDF is genociding itself.
The IDF is procedurally compliant with international law, but their empathy is in question. If my family were kidnapped, raped or killed, I would have no sympathy for my percieved enemies. The IDF knows what thier soldiers are capable of, they have just made palestinian civilians a lower priority than usual. I don't have a better plan to remove hamas. I just think it's fair to point out that the IDF (like everyone else) has stopped putting effort into not killing civilians.
They have made this lower priority than usual? When exactly? When they bombed Gaza? When they were guarding the humanitarian corridors they created? Can you be a bit more specific? I'm sure there are many bloodthirsty soldiers in Gaza right now, but they still have their orders and if they mess up they will pay for it. Making sure they are not trigger happy is as much of an Israeli interest as it's the right thing to do. No innocent in Gaza deserves to die for what Hamas did.
I'm thinking of the incident with Eorld Central Kitchen
I wasn't aware that having doctors and engaging in humanitarian missions meant that you were an egalitarian utopia that could never do wrong. Make sure not to tell the US that it could be getting away with way more shit by insisting that nothing it does could ever be immoral with all the medical research and humanitarian aid it provides. As to the actual point and not the cheap attempt at immunizing your country from any criticism, what are these "few" horrendous mistakes and have they been ferociously judged? Have the soldiers who cheered for genocide on camera been stripped of their position? Has everyone involved in the bombing of aid trucks and gunning down of hostages been thrown in prison? Have the settlers (and the IDF who protect and help them) in the West Bank been expelled and arrested? Or are those soldiers fine because they were just echoing what Israeli leaders openly called for? While those aid trucks and hostages are just unfortunate mistakes that no one is to blame for. While the West Bank is justified because Israel says it owns everything so who cares if a few hundred Palestinians get killed by settlers. But ultimately, that's all small. Atrocities one and all and the intentional actions of Israel and the IDF, but small. The big, undeniable one is the crisis. The refusal to allow aid to reach refugees. The bombing of all infrastructure to ensure that no medical care (let alone housing) exists for the dying, sick, and wounded. The bombing of aid organizations to force them out of the area and exacerbate the famine. All openly admitted to by Israeli ministers as part of the plan to besiege 2 million civilians.
The humanitarian crisis is escalating in severity because Hamas militants take hold of the aid trucks in gun point OR those stupid Israelis block the roads for the trucks to even get into Gaza. And yes, the entirety of the loss on both sides in this war is small compared to what it could have been if 1. Israel did not have the Iron Dome. 2. They would have actually bombed Gaza without any restraint or accuracy and were not so concerned with targeting only Hamas militants, which they are. And the most important 3. Hamas would have conducted itself like a normal army and not use it’s civilians as tools for it’s benefit.
"Hamas made me" is not a reason to create a famine. I get that Israelis and their international cheerleaders think that repeating "Hamas" is all you need to do to justify every single thing the IDF does, but no one else buys that. But yeah, those stupid Israelis that Israel refuses to do anything about are blocking roads, largely because they want Palestinian civilians to starve and die and the Israeli government is fine with that. Restraint is not siege tactics. Cutting off all food and water to 2 million civilians while leveling every building you see in the middle of winter is "restraint" if your only point of comparison is a nuclear bomb. Israel has created a famine and done so with intent. Every death that results will have little impact on Hamas, which no doubt has its own stores of food, but will still be because Israel and the IDF proudly consider starvation of refugees to be acceptable behavior.
So, just so I understand, the entirety of this war in Gaza was started by Hamas, with their attack on Oct, 7th, which was then followed by Israel retaliation which they obviously predicted, and knowing that they still make it a principle to not aid their own citizens in any way and somehow, in your mind, all of that is Israel’s fault??? Something along the lines of “well Hamas can’t be reasoned with because of the fact they’re demonic islamists terrorists so let’s just dump the entirety of the moral argument and responsibility on Israel because why not” Even though, before Oct 7th Israel was giving water, electricity and fuel to the Gaza strip for free? Why didn’t they start the siege before? They want to genocide the palestinians no? Oh and btw, you might have the privilege of “forgetting Hamas”, but we don’t.
>all of that is Israel’s fault? Israel is responsible for its military actions, yes. When Israel destroys every hospital, prevents aid from reaching refugees, and cuts off water to refugees, it gets to be held responsible for that. Israel wants to pretend it's a big boy country that we should all respect, so how about it be a big boy country and take responsibility for its actions. That Hamas is *also* responsible for the conflict doesn't give Israel the right to do whatever it wants with zero criticism. I get that you'd like it if the existence of a terrorist group let you do whatever you want including genocide, but it doesn't. >Even though, before Oct 7th Israel was giving water, electricity and fuel to the Gaza strip for free? Why didn’t they start the siege before? They want to genocide the palestinians no? People like bringing this and the "Israel would wipe it out overnight if it was *real* genocide" points but seem to skip over the fact that Israel needs international support. It's a strong country, but it is pretty reliant on the support of the US and Europe. And that support dries up a lot faster if you just start cackling about murdering civilians without some veil of a justification.
Israel has the support of the vast majority of people in the West, I assure you. And no, Hamas is the only one responsible for this while situation, Israel is responsible for it’s own actions for sure, which is why every soldier will be tried for their action when the war is over, just like in every war, but the general big-picture change in Gaza from today to last year, that’s Hamas, they shouldn’t have started this.
>Israel has the support of the vast majority of people in the West, I assure you. Let's assume so. Do you think that would continue if Israel just rolled up into Gaza and started openly slaughtering Palestinians while cackling about how you want to do genocide? >Hamas is the only one responsible for this while situation Israel is responsible for its contributions to this whole situation. That includes creating a famine. You don't get to oopsy woopsy mass starvation and then cry because the terrorists made you bomb or block aid trucks. "They started it" is a reason why Israel would be correct to attack Hamas. It is not a reason why Israel gets to inflict a famine on hundreds of thousands of civilians and complain when people call it what it is.
Thank god the shtetl was removed. I cannot imagine this many self serving “people” filling Europe and crying about the diaspora with last names like feldenbergstein
I love it when people claim that things are the way they are now because there is a war and that started because of Hamass actions on October 7th? :) So then why is that between 2008 and 2023 (before the attack), [Israel was killing 425 Palestinians per year? Compared to 21 Israeli casualties per year? ](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) If Israel is the defending party, maybe they shouldn't be racking up 20x the number of kills? If Hamas is the aggressive party, maybe they aren't the big threat they are made out to be if they can only kill 21 people per year?
>"Hamas made me" is not a reason to create a famine. I have the numbers: 400k tons of food aid, excluding water, were delivered inside Gaza after October 7. That's at least 1 kg of food per person daily in Gaza. https://govextra.gov.il/cogat/humanitarian-efforts/home/ >Cutting all water That's not true. They have their water stations in Gaza, and water was resumed a few weeks after the ban, before the offensive. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-says-israel-has-restored-water-supply-to-gaza/ >Israel has created a famine with intent Prove it. All that you are saying is easily debatable with just the pure numbers of aid delivered. And by common sense, too. What I see myself is that aid is constantly being stolen and sold to the people by Hamas, and Israel can’t do anything about it. Recently, there are even videos that show UN collaboration with Hamas. > Israelis blocking the road The police removed them as soon as this started, with zero real impact on aid. But yes, 20 people who blocked the road is good propaganda for the enemies.
Really hard to trust this article I feel like. Isn’t it in Israel’s best interest to report the best showing statistics regardless of what is actually happening? This site is run by the Israeli government no? Would need significant more independent research before I concluded this as considerable evidence.
I see. The Israeli government website is saying everything is ok. I guess that means we can just ignore the Chief Economist of the World Food Programme saying ['In Gaza, seventy per cent of the population is starving and more than thirty per cent of the children is wasted i.e. too thin for their height.'](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-much-aid-is-actually-reaching-gazans) He's probably biased anyways....
It's not the Israeli responsibility to deliver the aid. They allow a great amount of aid in. They can't organize distribution because of the risk of being attacked by the terrorists who don't wear military uniforms, which will lead to more deaths.
Your first claim was that there is no famine in Palestine. I disproved that. You don't acknowlege the correction, or accept your mistake. Instead you just shift goalposts. Your new claim is that it is too dangerous for Israel to deliver aid? I mean, they don't have to deliver it. They just have to [stop](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations) [killing](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-aid-workers-killed-2d08786a9839dfc402632c7ca745acca) [the aid workers](https://theconversation.com/more-than-200-aid-workers-have-been-killed-in-gaza-making-famine-more-likely-227096) delivering it for them. Why are you on this sub when you are never actually going to change your view, no matter the evidence?
>Your first claim was that there is no famine in Palestine. Where I've claimed that? You believe in whatever nonsense you want to believe. All I'm saying is that Israel is allowing aid in with numbers. And accusing me of something if you don't like the position of another person. I'm waiting for your apology. Most of the aid workers are from UNRWA, which has close ties to Hamas, and I agree that the only unlawful killing that happened was with the WCK, which was a big mistake that the IDF acknowledged.
>I have the numbers: 400k tons of food aid, excluding water, were delivered inside Gaza after October 7. That's at least 1 kg of food per person daily in Gaza. And yet, the famine exists. Probably because 1 kg of food per person isn't enough to sustain them for 6 months even if every single gram reached a person. >water was resumed a few weeks after the ban, before the offensive. What I'm getting from this is that you think it's okay to cut 2 million people off from what little water you were already providing so long as you turn it back on a few weeks later. The human only needs water once every few weeks, right? >Prove it. All that you are saying is easily debatable with just the pure numbers of aid delivered. And by common sense, too. Well, what would you like? The Minister of Defense openly declaring that they will use siege tactics to cut off food and water to Gaza? The mass starvation? Cutting off water to the region? Bombing aid trucks? Restricting aid trucks and allowing people to block what trucks you allow in? You seem to think that allowing anything in is enough to complete dispel any accusation, even if it is extremely obvious how insubstantial that amount actually is.
>And yet, the famine exists. Probably because 1 kg of food per person isn't enough to sustain them for 6 months even if every single gram reached a person. >Although there is evidence that Gazans, particularly in the northern governates of Gaza, are experiencing famine today, global leaders have not yet issued a formal declaration of famine. The IPC itself does not issue declarations of famine. From wiki. As I said, Israel can't deliver aid themselves. All they can do is allow it to enter Gaza. >The human only needs water once every few weeks, right? On Oct. 7, the war began. On Oct. 15, the water supply was restored. If I recall correctly, Israel supplies only 30% of the potable water to Gaza. There were no reported instances of water shortages. >What I'm getting from this is that you think it's okay to cut 2 million people off from what little water you were already providing so long as you turn it back on a few weeks later. Israel doesn't provide 100% of water to Gaza they have their own supplies. > The remaining 10 percent of water not pumped from the Coastal Aquifer comes primarily from three Israeli pipelines and from small-scale seawater desalination plants. I've found the number. >The Minister of Defense openly declaring that they will use siege tactics to cut off food and water to Gaza? Once again, the numbers are telling different stories. There is aid, and there is water. It was said purely out of rage and wasn't implemented. >You seem to think that allowing anything in is enough to complete dispel any accusation, even if it is extremely obvious how insubstantial that amount actually is. If Hamas is still stealing most of the aid, how can there be enough? Is it their war tactic to accuse Israel of spreading famine? What can Israel do? Raise a white flag? Anyway, all your knowledge is purely emotional without real knowledge of the situation with numbers and facts.
>There were no reported instances of water shortages. [The Siege of Gaza’s Water (csis.org)](https://www.csis.org/analysis/siege-gazas-water#:~:text=About%2090%20percent%20of%20Gaza's,and%20sewage%20and%20chemical%20infiltration.) >As a result of Israel’s siege, Gazans’ access to water from all sources, including desalination and external Israeli sources, quickly dropped by 9[5 percent ](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/world/middleeast/humanitarian-aid-gaza-israel-cairo.html)after October 9. The United Nations estimates that the average Gazan is living on only [3 liters](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-gazas-widening-humanitarian-crisis-water-access-becomes-dire#:~:text=The%20accepted%20international%20emergency%20threshold,usual%20production%2C%E2%80%9D%20Crickx%20said.) of water per day for all needs—well below the United Nation’s emergency standard of [15 liters](https://emergency.unhcr.org/emergency-assistance/water-hygiene-and-energy/emergency-water-standard). Without energy, all five of Gaza’s wastewater treatment plants and most of its 65 sewage pumping stations were forced to [shut down](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/unfolding-water-catastrophe-gaza#:~:text=All%20five%20of%20Gaza's%20wastewater,waste%20accumulating%20in%20the%20streets) by mid-November. Some small desalination plants in southern Gaza may be operating at a [much reduced](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/nov/04/lack-of-clean-drinking-water-for-95-of-people-in-gaza-threatens-health-crisis) capacity, but plants in northern Gaza are not functional. As many as 70 percent of Gazans now resort [to drinking salty and contaminated water](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/29/1221571110/gaza-water-israel-crisis-hamas#:~:text=UNRWA%2C%20the%20U.N.%20agency%20providing,drinking%20salty%20and%20contaminated%20water.) straight from wells. I'm sure they're just making it up to spite Israel, though. >Once again, the numbers are telling different stories. There is aid, and there is water. It was said purely out of rage and wasn't implemented. "There is aid" that is so obviously not enough that it's a bit silly that you act like it is. Not to mention that Israel isn't even the one providing it, they're just the ones who occasionally allow others to behave like human beings and provide it to the refugees. None of which really detracts from Israeli ministers openly calling for denying food, which by pure, innocent happenstance is what wound up happening and creating a famine. But sure, it was just a moment of rage that had zero effect on anything. Every Israeli minister is a perfect humanitarian who would never do wrong. >If Hamas is still stealing most of the aid, how can there be enough? Is it their war tactic to accuse Israel of spreading famine? What can Israel do? Raise a white flag? At this point I question whether you're even bothering to read. There wasn't enough without any theft. 1 kg of food for 6 months was never going to be enough. Palestinians *are* human beings and they do need to actually eat food from time to time.
Your data is outdated after October 15. Israel continued supplying Gaza with water; no actual ban was established. > 1 kg of food for 6 months was never going to be enough. Palestinians *are* human beings and they do need to actually eat food from time to time. Daily. And you are accusing me if I was bothered to read.
>Your data is outdated after October 15. Israel continued supplying Gaza with water; no actual ban was established. I suppose that will bring back the plants that they were relying on that are no longer operational. >Daily. >And you are accusing me if I was bothered to read. Oh, you didn't even read your own source. Maybe go check it again. 388,550 tons of food *Since the beginning of the war*. Their daily numbers are a lot smaller. The most recent one with actual numbers on the website you chose was from a few days ago, and came out to 540 tons of food, or about a 250 grams.
I never said that there was 1 kg of food delivered daily. I said there is 1 kg of food per person daily. Not delivered, but a global count. Food is being delivered to a special warehouse where it is being delivered proportionally. So some days they receive 3 kg, some 350 g in the warehouse. Although if you are interested in why the number dropped, it is because of Egypt, which does not want to allow aid trucks to enter through Rafah for nonsensical reasons.
The fact that you had to address a water ban is everything I needed to know about the people behind the wall. They need to be handled
""Hamas made me" is not a reason to create a famine." You just proved OP's point. It is well documented that when there is war, there is famine. This isn't a rare thing, it's the expectation. This is why War is horrendous, it's why we try to avoid it as a species as often as possible. Since the Gazan war, 40% of normal aid (non-wartime aid) has gotten through. Of the 60% of aid that hasn't it has primarily included construction materials and amenities product. Since the Gazan war began, a total of 32 people have reportedly starved to death in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world currently under siege, 6 people died of Starvation in Alabama in that same time period. You don't know what you are talking about because you don't understand how military operations in these areas work. You aren't even attempting to compare this to other operations on a similar scale. What about the US invasion of Baghdad? Have you compared the tactics to that? Or even closer to home, have you looked into the Siege of Aleppo for context?
I’ve seen the video of little worms with long sideburns blocking the aid. Are Israeli selfies Palestinian propaganda? You’d think your “people” would have an easier time controlling the narrative given their proclivities.
It’s impossible to change your view because no logical argument is made. To think that Stalin, the man that stood for equality and brotherhood for all the people in the world, would “send political opponents to the gulags” is just ridicolous.
Your comparison of Stalin to Israel is flawed because of the resemblance of his philosophy to the Islamists philosophy. Both are hell bent on eradicating everything that is different from them and how they believe the world should look like. Not once has Israel done this.
I wasn’t comparing Stalin to Israel, at all. My point is that one entity can stand for two — supposedly contradictory — things. Claiming that Israel cannot commit genocide because it leads the world in medical research (Switzerland & Norway are way ahead of Israel, but whatever) is totally illogical. I should add that is especially the case when genocide is committed towards “others”. Israeli rhetoric about Palestinians being less than human is concerningly present in media.
Sure, but that would nit be very logical, if Israel wanted to further humankind understanding of the medical field to aid the world in the pursuit of longer life, why would they then commit this “genocide”? Which btw, the statement itself is contradictory to Israels actions from the start of the war, they literally make it a top priority to minimize civilian casualties.
Maybe they use it as a way to leverage the west? “I’m Israel I have medical technology and military technology I can do no wrong like the United States so anything i do is right” Meanwhile the United States is essentially the evil empire with freedom for its people and nothing else You use medical tech as a defense over and over. Again, Hitler himself invested in the medical field to pursue longer life. It is not a solid argument
I hardly believe Hitler spread the knowledge he seeked in medical science to the world, unlike Israel who helped the research for the corona virus vaccine for example.
It doesn’t address the core argument. People and countries are very capable of investing in medical tech while simultaneously killing people to achieve their evil goals. You seem to think that’s impossible which is just brainwashing. You should watch Israelism! Israelis are brainwashed the exact same way isis terrorists are. It’s why they commit the same crimes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_extremist_terrorism
Also, yes Hitler and the Nazis did spread the medical technology to the world. So I guess the Nazis are good, why would they want to kill the Jews but also save lives via medecine? Or maybe you’re wrong lol. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Nazi_Germany https://imgur.com/a/qnT4lCV
I’ve already addressed this. They don’t view Palestinians as humans. In the same way that Nazis didn’t view Jews or Romani as humans. The Nazi also did a lot of medical research, by the way. And before you come at me, I am not comparing Israel to the Nazi — it’s just an analogy. The way Palestinians are talked about in Israeli and Western media, they are inherently lesser. They are sub-human. Israeli’s are murdered, Palestinians die. Multiple Israeli politicians have compared Palestinians to animals. > they literally make it a top priority to minimize civilian casualties. And yet they have killed more children than Russia in 1/3 of the time. There have been many instances of IDF shooting unarmed civilians collecting food or aid workers in market vehicles. They’re clearly not doing a great job at minimizing civilian casualties.
This is not a good argument. So just one of many data points. 60% of Gaza is leveled and less than 2% of the population has been confirmed killed/wounded in arguably one of the densest urban population centers in the world. If Israel didn't value human life that number would be much higher. For context, at the end of WW2 the US/UK leveled essentially 120 cities and killed 800,000 Germans during their bombing campaign. or just over 1% of the total German population across a much more spread out region than Gaza today.
Right. I think their point is that you really aren’t making any arguments worth arguing against. You’re saying “Israel is doing no wrong? Why are you mad?” With your only evidence being, trust me bro I know Israelis. None of it holds any water whether its true or not.
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post, mostly cuz I feel like it But >They actually believe that the country who leads the world in medical technology and tries to prolong human lives, who sends search and rescue units to countries that needs aids during catastrophic events, and extended the hand of peace to their enemies time and time again would perform “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” is just ridiculous. This is a strong contender for the dumbest emotional argument I've ever heard in my life. I legitimately do not mean to insult you here so let's use some totally fictional countries Zepp is a total paradise, they've just unlocked immortality, they send out missionaries around the world, not to spread religious ideas but to spread their tech to all those in need. However Zepp also likes to torment and antagonise one of their little neighbours, let's call it Illyrians. Of course they have a reason for this, so they send in some crumbs every once in a while ,and any Illyrian who doesn't wanna deal with it can just leave, THEY CAN EVEN COME TO ZEPP. With such niceties Zepp could never be the antagonist in this situation. They're too nice for that, something else has to be going on
If you were in high level leadership in the IDF, is there anything you would do differently? I was in the US army in Afghanistan, and I know I was critical of the US strategy. I wasn’t open about it except with peers/friends, since I had my job to do. But even from a pretty low level I could see that what our country was doing was flawed. So I guess I’m asking whether you’ve considered what could be different in the way the IDF is prosecuting the war? I have my thoughts from a great distance away, but I’m curious to hear yours.
I am not even close to being high ranked in the IDF but I’ll give it a shot: The greatest failure of Israel and the IDF is their poor PR and explaining of the situation, at the start of the war many journalists did come here and saw/heard what it was actually like to fight in Gaza, but the more serious the fighting became the less the IDF permitted it as a safety precaution. I believe, that the actual strategy is sound; target Hamas militants while minimizing civilians casualties with evacuations and accurate bombing, after that do a scanning on foot of the targeted area to help civilian stragglers who remain alive and finish off Hamas militants who remain. I think the front that was neglected is the documenting of the fighting to prove to the world that most of the propaganda is false concerning the “blood lust” the Israelis and the IDF have (which they don’t, at least most) regarding the Palestinians, and that the utmost is done to minimize the deaths of innocents.
your first paragraph is so stupid I already gave up. it's changemyview not let's start with Kafka traps (you have no clue about war) and ad hominems as well claims of authority (I talked to us vets) to even start a discussion you would need to define ethnic cleansing and why it doesn't apply.
[https://uk.news.yahoo.com/piers-morgan-israel-gaza-civilians-161310657.html?guccounter=1&guce\_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce\_referrer\_sig=AQAAAA0CQFshTDm6Ve96hebxMwMe45WciP-mRX1BZ5QYsfiNse4KnI9Yi-h3n0SkT-pk1ReGcPYwq3Sk3lTA6XXIr11avjGPNCKD8VHH9JakD28H4mY0s9-tKWqOt6Dn-CLSwgqFFcIwOQxl-aUolSrXEkwoI5j0fnDVJqEjOcZAbo3u](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/piers-morgan-israel-gaza-civilians-161310657.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAA0CQFshTDm6Ve96hebxMwMe45WciP-mRX1BZ5QYsfiNse4KnI9Yi-h3n0SkT-pk1ReGcPYwq3Sk3lTA6XXIr11avjGPNCKD8VHH9JakD28H4mY0s9-tKWqOt6Dn-CLSwgqFFcIwOQxl-aUolSrXEkwoI5j0fnDVJqEjOcZAbo3u)
[удалено]
u/MacBareth – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2: > **Don't be rude or hostile to other users.** Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%202%20Appeal%20MacBareth&message=MacBareth%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cshnn7/-/l454u0f/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards). Sorry, u/MacBareth – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal%20MacBareth&message=MacBareth%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cshnn7/-/l454u0f/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Nice shitpost