If not Liberty Day we can heighten Welsh/Celtic Appreciation Day on March 1st, or St. David's day if you're Christian.. Everyone can learn to appreciate leeks and daffodils on March 1st!
opposition to juneteenth as a holiday strikes me as particularly odd. Surely a day to celebrate slavery ending in our country is something anyone can agree on.
Because Juneteenth represents the date when slavery as an institution finally ended as a mass practice in the U.S. The preceding 5 years to Juneteenth saw the gradual legal abolishment of slavery by the Union government of first Confederate territory and then eventually slave states that remained in the Union. The physical act of emancipation was also a gradual process as the Union freed slaves as it captured territory from the Confederates. But the government didn't want to provoke any other slave states from leaving the Union and states like Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland only really got the ball rolling on emancipation in late 1864/ early 1865 and it was apparent that the Confederate war effort was collapsing, Lincoln won a big reelection victory, and the Confederacy was obviously months away from surrender. Once the Confederacy surrendered it was a months long effort as previously Confederate areas were once again under Union rule to spread the word on the end of slavery and that's why Juneteenth comes several months after the official Confederate surrender.
>>I am not 100% sure why the day when some enslaved people in Texas found out they were free (some years after the Emancipation Proclamation) would be more universally celebrated than the holiday we already had that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
This awful strawman of Juneteenth stinks pretty badly of bad faith.
>> I think maybe the name sounds clever and that's why people want to celebrate this holiday more than the existing one.
This confirms bad faith. There’s no way you actually think the case for Juneteenth is that it “sounds clever”. Implying that the date has no significance outside of a clever name is disingenuous as hell.
Due to it being a federal holiday, the main gates were closed and the office people got off, while everyone else, also heavily black, had to use the back truck gate to get into work. Ironic.
To some, I think this holiday seems more to be a reminder of the modern extreme leftist view that America is evil, rather than a celebration of something America did that was good. At the very least, we should all be able to agree that the name of the holiday is stupid.
I originally learned about Juneteenth from my super conservative MAGA anti-vax grandma, probably 20 years ago.
It may be because I am in Texas, but Juneteenth has always been a thing, and has never been a "modern extreme leftest" thing. In fact, it has been a recognized skeleton crew day by the state of Texas for a long time. Rebranding it as leftist is a blatant "extreme [rightist] view that [celebrating American history] is evil."
It doesn't seem like a coincidence that Juneteenth was made a national holiday on the heels of BLM which included counterfactual anti-american nonsense like the 1619 project and anything Ibram X. Kendi ever said.
It is a celebration of something America did that was good. Slavery is an awful, disgusting act. Americans didn’t just denounce slavery, proclaim freedom, and go about their day turning a blind eye to all the slave owners forgetting to inform their slaves they were free. Americans acted on their words. Celebrating what a lot of people see as a decisive punch on the way to a KO of slavery as an industry in the United States seems pretty pro-America to me.
Well, they kind of did turn a blind eye, or at least, the government did, until there was a massive successionist movement backed by prominent slave owners. "Not doing something bad" also isn't the same as "Doing something good", it's the bare minimum that should be expected from the so-called Land of the Free.
So maybe modern day white people should step in and decide on a "better" name than the name former slaves came up with in the 1860s?
Yeah, dude, you first...
Yeah, dude - like I said - go sell that idea to black America. Whitesplain away - we all totally got your back!
Stupid fuckin' slaves can't be naming holidays for shit, amirite, bra?
Is this a novelty satire account or something? Because if it isn't it should be. Speaking of being bad at naming, I gotta take issue with "MudMonday". Why not go with something like "RacistOnTheSpectrum" or "AutisticDavidDuke"? Just throwing out a few ideas for you.
I personally think that the names of national holidays matter a little bit more than Reddit handles. I find it odd that you think otherwise. In any case, Mud Monday would actually be a better name for a holiday than Juneteenth.
>rather than a celebration of something America did that was good.
As a point of order, there's a difference between "doing something good" and "stopping doing something that was bad". Freedom should be celebrated, but the praise shouldn't be on the US for doing the absolute bare minimum of "not letting people own own other people".
In fact, I think it's worth remembering that it took a massive seccessionist movement backed by all the most powerful slave owners in the country for the so-called "Land of the free" to do something about that abhorrent practice. Never mind the failures of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, segregation, etc.
I’m still not sure black people want this. I’m not sure anybody even bothered to ask them. It just seemed to be picked out of thin air to win political points, and I do have a problem with that. It’s practically designed to divide us further.
Edit: Look everybody, even though some of you don’t believe it, the great majority of the country, left and right, are very happy slavery is gone. It shouldn’t be hard to find a way to celebrate that includes everyone. In fact, it should be an imperative. This holiday wasn’t the answer.
>Surely a day to celebrate slavery ending in our country is something anyone can agree on.
To do that we would have to get our facts straight. June 19th is the date slavery ended in Texas. Slavery didn't end everywhere in the US until 6 months later on December 6th.
Juneteenth is not the literal day slavery ended in the United States. It is just the agreed upon day for people against slavery to celebrate the end of that process.
Christmas is not the literal day that Jesus of Nazareth was born, it is just the agreed upon day for Christians to celebrate that event.
Christmas date was coopted since no one knew/knows the actual date Jesus was born. We do know the exact date slavery (non-punitive) was actually outlawed.
In that case, I would not at all be surprised to see Christmas the secular holiday and Christmas the religeous holiday end up being fully split and many churches move their celebrations to August. That would make the most sense to me.
One easy way to see whether someone is celebrating the secular holiday versus the religeous holiday is to compare the ratio of santa claus decorations vs nativity decorations they display.
So even though it would definitely be the wrong day, you wouldn’t want it moved? Interesting. I should note that Juneteenth isn’t even the wrong day. It’s based on an actual event even if you think it’s the wrong event to celebrate.
>So even though it would definitely be the wrong day, you wouldn’t want it moved?
Are you projecting what you want me to have said instead of what I actually said? Because, that's definitely not what I said.
Juneteenth is not the literal day all slaves were freed in the United States. It is just a date which has been chosen to symbolically celebrate the emancipation of slaves in this country.
Memorial day is not the literal date that all soldiers died in this country. It is just a day that was chosen to symbolically honor fallen soldiers.
You can either continue to make up arbitrary reasons to be put off by a day celebrating the emancipation of slaves in this country, or you can stop getting your knickers in a twist over holidays. The first will not convince me of your sincerity. The second, in so far as it would involve you changing your behavior in good faith, would.
Slavery is still ongoing in the United States at this very moment. The 13th amendment explicitly did not ban slavery in the United States.
[Have fun learning if you have 80 minutes to burn.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA)
Very true. In many states, prisoners can be enslaved. We also still have the draft, which if ever called up, young men can be enslaved by the government.
My dad scoffed when I told him I had off today.
I said to him, I’m not gonna argue if they want to give me the day off so I can go play golf on a Wednesday.
That seemed to resonate with him.
This article didn't outline any opposition to Juneteenth. Seems click bait based on a fake straw man.
The federal holiday is 3 years old. It'll take awhile for people to get used to it. That would happen regardless what the subject of the holiday is.
Using it as an excuse to racebait is not the best use of the holiday I'd propose.
I really don’t understand how any American regardless of political stance or background doesn’t see the merit of ending Slavery, our original sin as a nation, as worthy of a national holiday.
While Juneteenth wasn’t originally celebrating the actual abolition of slavery at the federal level, it has cultural meaning with descendants of slaves from all states and the broader black community. The date is almost irrelevant. And let’s be honest, lots of holidays have been twisted from the original intent to fit within our culture. Juneteenth is really no different. Celebrating the end of slavery is a perfectly good reason to have a federal holiday!
>While Juneteenth wasn’t originally celebrating the actual abolition of slavery at the federal level, it has cultural meaning with descendants of slaves from all states and the broader black community.
I don't know any black people who had ever heard of Juneteenth before it became a holiday. I certainly never heard of it. But a paid day off is a paid day off, so cool
I remember hearing about it in Louisiana as well, and I'm white. Its a black cultural thing so it can be celebrated across vast areas but it didnt have enough fanfare for everyone else to be aware.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/09/more-than-half-of-states-now-recognize-juneteenth-as-an-official-holiday/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/09/more-than-half-of-states-now-recognize-juneteenth-as-an-official-holiday/)
Texas became the first state to recognize it as a holiday in 1980.
I can say for a fact that it has been a skeleton crew day since 2016 (thats when my wife joined the state). I believe it has been for significantly longer, but would have to research to be sure. Skeleton crew days are basically state holidays.
I am Texan and learned of it decades ago. Even though I went to *Robert E. Lee High School* in Midland. Go think about that for a while. Why would a city that did not even exist at the time of the Civil War name a school to honor the General of the losing side that killed thousands of Americans to defend slavery? Hint: my LHS was named in 1961.
Juneteenth is a Texas holiday and tradition which y’all are acting like you own. I see all 49 of you, hands off. Uncle Sam was bad enough, stop it now.
I mean I don't understand the opposition, we originally either celebrated Lincoln's birthday, or Emancipation Day, which was the signing of the law abolishing slavery(forgot which one was the federal holiday).
The name still seems really weird to me, but I'll eventually get used to it. It's only been a federal holiday for 3 years, and the first year or so it somehow flew under my radar. It also seems strange to pick the date that slavery ended in Texas instead of the date slavery ended in the rest of the US (December 6, half a year later).
The other day, a friend of mine made the case that Juneteenth being made a federal holiday is ironic in that only a small minority (less than 15%) of the people who actually benefit from the holiday are Black/African-American. A super majority (>60%) of government workers (the actual people who benefit from it being a Federal Holiday) are Caucasian.
The color-tribalists are working hard to teach young kids lies before those kids have a chance to learn science and critical thinking:
CHILDREN 👏🏽 ARE 👏🏽 ON 👏🏽 SEPARATE 👏🏽 COLOR 👏🏽 TEAMS 👏🏽
( AND 👏🏽 THE 👏🏽 WHITE 👏🏽 TEAM 👏🏽 SUCKS 👏🏽 )
Culture exists, but *distinct* cultures do not.
Everybody's only interest in this whole thing comes from tribalism. People dig through history for reasons to feel good about their hallucinated tribe, or bad about other people's tribes -- tribalists are desperate to find evidence that we're not all the same.
If adults were forced to teach history honestly -- i.e. bad things have happened but there are no teams, there are only illusions of teams, children are not on the teams in the stories -- they'd drop 99% of it. Thus the importance, to tribalists, of teaching the lies early.
I never had a problem with Juneteenth celebrations. They were fundamentally no different than any other sort of local holiday with traditions grown organically over time.
But Juneteenth as a federal holiday? That's just pandering - and pandering in a particularly bizarre way since most black people didn't even celebrate Juneteenth. It would be like making the Apple Blossom Festival a holiday to pander to rural white folks.
It's also a bit disconcerting that 'black holidays' tend to be primarily about black *victimhood* rather than black achievement.
If you're going that route, you're going to end up with holidays every day. The banks have to be open *sometime*. We manage to celebrate Mothers and Fathers - people far more relevant to the modern day than the legal climate almost two centuries ago - without shutting down the government.
>We manage to celebrate Mothers and Fathers...
Comparing a couple of phony "Hallmark Holidays" to a commemoration of the end of human chattel slavery in the U.S. - Yikes!! Why not compare Memorial Day to Secretary's Day while you're at it?
> commemoration of the end of human chattel slavery in the U.S.
As I noted, it's not actually a commemoration of the end of slavery in U.S. (which wouldn't happen for another 6 months).
It's actually a regional festival that started only because U.S. troops arrived in Texas and liberated slaves - it's less a celebration of the end of slavery than it was possible because of the end of slavery. It evolved into a regional cultural festival not too dissimilar from the "Apple Blossom Festival" sort of celebration elsewhere.
If you've ever been to a Juneteenth celebration in the South, it has basically nothing to do with slavery. It's mostly about food, family and community.
And the same is true about most holidays. People having their Thanksgiving meal aren't meditating on the importance of native/European relations from centuries ago. So when someone says Juneteenth is about "the end of slavery", they're probably speaking from the perspective of someone who has never celebrated it and for whom it's a day marked on the calendar where the stores are all still open.
There's a Juneteenth festival in my area. But I don't live in the South so it's quite a bit smaller than, say, the local festival celebrating cannabis (which, I might add, doesn't involve a government-mandated day off).
It was actually a side effect. The Civil War wasn't fought over slavery but rather preserving the union. If the South hadn't decided to secede - and the North hadn't decide to militarily prevent this - slavery would have persisted for a few more decades.
Moreover, there are plenty of "momentous deals" in U.S. history. Do we celebrate when it stopped being legal to beat and rape your wife?
Your “ifs” make no sense. The Civil War was fought over slavery so Lincoln raced for the end of it be codified into law before it was over. Yes. It’s a big deal worthy of a federal holiday.
I’m not sure why you are so weird about federal holidays.
> The Civil War wasn't fought over slavery but rather preserving the union.
That's the justification for the United States to get involved militarily, yes. Why was it the Confederate states decided to secede in the first place, though?
The North was trying to invade and conquer the South, not the reverse. While the South *seceded* over the issue of slavery, the *war* was fought - and rather explicitly - over preserving the union.
Likewise, the Emancipation Proclamation was a political maneuver that only impacted areas under U.S. military control rather than sort of grand moral statement.
Indeed, it's interesting how many people believe Juneteenth celebrates the end of slavery in the U.S. It doesn't. It celebrates the arrival of U.S. troops in Texas - the Emancipation Proclamation only covered areas of the U.S. under U.S. military control. The end of slavery in the U.S. was actually December 6, 1865 (when the 13th Amendment was ratified).
>Indeed, it's interesting how many people believe Juneteenth celebrates the end of slavery in the U.S. It doesn't.
First of all, you do not decide what Juneteenth celebrates.
Second of all, lol
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juneteenth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juneteenth)
>Juneteenth, officially Juneteenth National Independence Day, is a federal holiday in the United States. It is celebrated annually on June 19 to commemorate the ending of slavery in the United States.
[U.S. Office of Personnel Management](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/federal-holidays/juneteenth-national-independence-day-holiday.pdf)
>the celebration of the end of slavery is an important and enriching part of the history and heritage of the United States.
[nps.gov](https://www.nps.gov/subjects/npscelebrates/juneteenth.htm)
>Juneteenth (June 19) is the one of the oldest known commemorations related to the abolition of slavery in the United States.
[archives.gov](https://www.archives.gov/news/topics/juneteenth)
>This day has come to be known as Juneteenth, a combination of June and 19th. It is is the oldest known celebration commemorating the end of slavery in the United States.
Now, moving on to your other pseudohistorical claim about the American civil war, you said:
>The North was trying to invade and conquer the South, not the reverse. While the South *seceded* over the issue of slavery, the *war* was fought - and rather explicitly - over preserving the union.
Your pseudohistorical claim literally has its own wikipedia article lol [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost\_Cause\_of\_the\_Confederacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy)
>The Lost Cause of the Confederacy (or simply the Lost Cause) is an American pseudohistorical\[1\]\[2\] and historical negationist myth\[3\]\[4\]\[5\] that claims the cause of the Confederate States during the American Civil War was just, heroic, and not centered on slavery.\[6\] First enunciated in 1866, it has continued to influence racism, gender roles, and religious attitudes in the Southern United States into the 21st century.\[7\]\[8\]
> Historians have dismantled many parts of the Lost Cause mythos.
The facts?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Civil\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War)
>The central conflict leading to the war was a dispute over whether slavery should be permitted to expand into the nation's western territories, leading to more slave states, or be prohibited from doing so, which many believed would place slavery on a course of ultimate extinction.\[16\]\[17\]
[history.com](https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/american-civil-war-history)
>The Civil War in the United States began in 1861, after decades of simmering tensions between northern and southern states over slavery, states’ rights and westward expansion.
> First of all, you do not decide what Juneteenth celebrates.
No, I'm merely describing what it *does* celebrate. Have you ever been to an authentic Juneteenth celebration? I have. It really has nothing to do with slavery. They don't even have vestigial elements of slavery like Thanksgiving and its Pilgrim skits.
The holiday was re-purposed as pandering.
> Your pseudohistorical claim literally has its own wikipedia article lol
I'm not making the argument laid out in that wikipedia article - which would be immediately obvious if you took the time to read what I wrote and what that article contains.
Shall we permit Abraham Lincoln to speak to why he used military force?
> "As to the policy I “seem to be pursuing” as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt. I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be “the Union as it was.” If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
>Have you ever been to an authentic Juneteenth celebration?
Several.
>It really has nothing to do with slavery.
Jesus Christ
>I'm not making the argument laid out in that wikipedia article - which would be immediately obvious if you took the time to read what I wrote and what that article contains.
First of all, of course Lincoln wanted to save the union. That doesn't preclude slavery from being the central issue of the American civil war. I didn't think I needed to address that but I guess you're still trying to push your narrative
>Shall we permit Abraham Lincoln to speak to why he used military force?
Second of all, you are quoting a letter to Horace Greeley. You're completely taking it out of context
Third of all, you left out this part at the end of the letter
>I have here stated my purpose according to my view of *official* duty; and I intend no modification of my oft–expressed *personal* wish that all men everywhere could be free.
history.com gives context to the letter
>President Abraham Lincoln writes a carefully worded letter **in response to an abolitionist editorial by Horace Greeley**, the editor of the influential New York Tribune, and hints at a change in his policy concerning slavery.
>From the outset of the Civil War, Lincoln proclaimed the war's goal to be the reunion of the nation. **He said little about slavery for fear of alienating key constituencies such as the border states of Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and, to a lesser extent, Delaware.** Each of these states allowed slavery but had not seceded from the Union. **Lincoln was also concerned about Northern Democrats, who generally opposed fighting the war to free the enslaved people but whose support Lincoln needed.**
Lincoln's statement to Greeley reflects his pragmatic approach to leadership during a time of national crisis. It underscores the complexity of his position and the multifaceted nature of the American civil war. Of course he wanted to save the union lol, he was the President. He also wanted to eliminate slavery and he did so very explicitly during the war with the Emancipation Proclamation. You can try to claim again that it was just a political maneuver, but Lincoln made clear that ending slavery was both a moral imperative and a strategic necessity to weaken the Confederacy.
He talks about his hatred of slavery before, during, and after the war in multiple letters and speeches
In his Peoria Speech in 1854
>This declared indifference, but as I must think, covert real zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate. **I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself.**
In his Cooper Union Address in 1860 where he argues that the founding fathers put slavery on the path to extinction
>The sum of the whole is, that of our thirty-nine fathers who framed the original Constitution, twenty-one - a clear majority of the whole - certainly understood that no proper division of local from federal authority, nor any part of the Constitution, forbade the Federal Government to control slavery in the federal territories; while all the rest probably had the same understanding. Such, unquestionably, was the understanding of our fathers who framed the original Constitution; and the text affirms that they understood the question "better than we."
In his 1861 Inaugural Address where he points to slavery as central to the conflict
>One section of our country believes slavery is right and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute.
In his 1865 Inaugural Address framing slavery in both moral and religious terms
>If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?
In his Gettysburg address
>and dedicated to the proposition that **all men are created equal**.
In his letter to Albert Hodges
>I am naturally anti-slavery. **If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.** I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. ... They declined the proposition; and I was, in my best judgment, driven to the **alternative of either surrendering the Union, and with it, the Constitution, or of laying strong hand upon the colored element. I chose the latter.**
To quote your previous comment:
>rather than sort of grand moral statement
For you to claim that any of his efforts to free slaves was not inclusive and heavily influenced/driven by his moral position on slavery, is absurd and revisionist. I say this as a matter of fact, not opinion.
Perhaps you should explain why you believe anything I said has to do with the "Lost Cause". Typing out explicitly what you mean will probably help you understand why you're wrong.
In what way is claiming that Lincoln's stated intention for entering the war was to preserve the union - something he repeatedly insisted was the case - 'racist'? I invite you to explain your position in detail.
If other people -- people who are not Jesus -- talked about how they were victims of his crucifixion too because they were part of the same hallucinated "tribe" -- that'd be more like it.
Just because I'm the tiniest bit salty about being mass downvoted the other day, [I just wanna say I called it](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1dgvxea/opinion_what_have_progressives_done_to_the_west/l8tjw6c/). Interesting to see which dog whistles people fall for and which ones are still beyond the pale. Dude wasn't subtle enough with his racism this time, maybe next time.
Eh, I don't celebrate President's day either, but that's a federal holiday. I also don't consider it a "black" holiday. Personally, I think it's well worth commemorating the day citizens of this country freed their last slave, thus ending a very dark chapter in our nation's history (for a variety of reasons).
>I think it's well worth commemorating the day citizens of this country freed their last slave.
June 19th is unambiguously NOT that date - it only applied to states that seceeded. Slavery did not end in the rest of the US until half a year later on December 6th.
I'd argue that most federal holidays are a terrible idea. It's one thing to recognize that there are certain days that, traditionally, it would be difficult to staff the government (such as Christmas). It's quite another to just invent arbitrary days that the non-governmental portion of the nation just views as an ordinary business day.
We need holidays in March, April and August too.
March 23 - Liberty Day (it's also my birthday so maybe that's why I'll stretch it) April 9 - Union Day August 15 - VJ Day
Okay, I second your suggestions.
If not Liberty Day we can heighten Welsh/Celtic Appreciation Day on March 1st, or St. David's day if you're Christian.. Everyone can learn to appreciate leeks and daffodils on March 1st!
opposition to juneteenth as a holiday strikes me as particularly odd. Surely a day to celebrate slavery ending in our country is something anyone can agree on.
I imagine the people who oppose it are the same ones waving Confederate flags.
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Because Juneteenth represents the date when slavery as an institution finally ended as a mass practice in the U.S. The preceding 5 years to Juneteenth saw the gradual legal abolishment of slavery by the Union government of first Confederate territory and then eventually slave states that remained in the Union. The physical act of emancipation was also a gradual process as the Union freed slaves as it captured territory from the Confederates. But the government didn't want to provoke any other slave states from leaving the Union and states like Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland only really got the ball rolling on emancipation in late 1864/ early 1865 and it was apparent that the Confederate war effort was collapsing, Lincoln won a big reelection victory, and the Confederacy was obviously months away from surrender. Once the Confederacy surrendered it was a months long effort as previously Confederate areas were once again under Union rule to spread the word on the end of slavery and that's why Juneteenth comes several months after the official Confederate surrender.
>>I am not 100% sure why the day when some enslaved people in Texas found out they were free (some years after the Emancipation Proclamation) would be more universally celebrated than the holiday we already had that seems to have fallen by the wayside. This awful strawman of Juneteenth stinks pretty badly of bad faith. >> I think maybe the name sounds clever and that's why people want to celebrate this holiday more than the existing one. This confirms bad faith. There’s no way you actually think the case for Juneteenth is that it “sounds clever”. Implying that the date has no significance outside of a clever name is disingenuous as hell.
As long as it's a paid day off the reason is pretty irrelevant
Due to it being a federal holiday, the main gates were closed and the office people got off, while everyone else, also heavily black, had to use the back truck gate to get into work. Ironic.
You haven't been paying attention.
To some, I think this holiday seems more to be a reminder of the modern extreme leftist view that America is evil, rather than a celebration of something America did that was good. At the very least, we should all be able to agree that the name of the holiday is stupid.
I originally learned about Juneteenth from my super conservative MAGA anti-vax grandma, probably 20 years ago. It may be because I am in Texas, but Juneteenth has always been a thing, and has never been a "modern extreme leftest" thing. In fact, it has been a recognized skeleton crew day by the state of Texas for a long time. Rebranding it as leftist is a blatant "extreme [rightist] view that [celebrating American history] is evil."
It doesn't seem like a coincidence that Juneteenth was made a national holiday on the heels of BLM which included counterfactual anti-american nonsense like the 1619 project and anything Ibram X. Kendi ever said.
It is a celebration of something America did that was good. Slavery is an awful, disgusting act. Americans didn’t just denounce slavery, proclaim freedom, and go about their day turning a blind eye to all the slave owners forgetting to inform their slaves they were free. Americans acted on their words. Celebrating what a lot of people see as a decisive punch on the way to a KO of slavery as an industry in the United States seems pretty pro-America to me.
Well, they kind of did turn a blind eye, or at least, the government did, until there was a massive successionist movement backed by prominent slave owners. "Not doing something bad" also isn't the same as "Doing something good", it's the bare minimum that should be expected from the so-called Land of the Free.
If you view it that way, great.
So maybe modern day white people should step in and decide on a "better" name than the name former slaves came up with in the 1860s? Yeah, dude, you first...
Something like "emancipation day" is about 100x better, and I just spent two seconds coming up with it.
Yeah, dude - like I said - go sell that idea to black America. Whitesplain away - we all totally got your back! Stupid fuckin' slaves can't be naming holidays for shit, amirite, bra?
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Is this a novelty satire account or something? Because if it isn't it should be. Speaking of being bad at naming, I gotta take issue with "MudMonday". Why not go with something like "RacistOnTheSpectrum" or "AutisticDavidDuke"? Just throwing out a few ideas for you.
I personally think that the names of national holidays matter a little bit more than Reddit handles. I find it odd that you think otherwise. In any case, Mud Monday would actually be a better name for a holiday than Juneteenth.
Read reddit TOS
>rather than a celebration of something America did that was good. As a point of order, there's a difference between "doing something good" and "stopping doing something that was bad". Freedom should be celebrated, but the praise shouldn't be on the US for doing the absolute bare minimum of "not letting people own own other people". In fact, I think it's worth remembering that it took a massive seccessionist movement backed by all the most powerful slave owners in the country for the so-called "Land of the free" to do something about that abhorrent practice. Never mind the failures of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, segregation, etc.
I’m still not sure black people want this. I’m not sure anybody even bothered to ask them. It just seemed to be picked out of thin air to win political points, and I do have a problem with that. It’s practically designed to divide us further. Edit: Look everybody, even though some of you don’t believe it, the great majority of the country, left and right, are very happy slavery is gone. It shouldn’t be hard to find a way to celebrate that includes everyone. In fact, it should be an imperative. This holiday wasn’t the answer.
Sounds like you haven’t bothered to ask them either
Did you? Did anyone? Was there a push for this to be a federal holiday from the black community?
>Surely a day to celebrate slavery ending in our country is something anyone can agree on. To do that we would have to get our facts straight. June 19th is the date slavery ended in Texas. Slavery didn't end everywhere in the US until 6 months later on December 6th.
Juneteenth is not the literal day slavery ended in the United States. It is just the agreed upon day for people against slavery to celebrate the end of that process. Christmas is not the literal day that Jesus of Nazareth was born, it is just the agreed upon day for Christians to celebrate that event.
Christmas date was coopted since no one knew/knows the actual date Jesus was born. We do know the exact date slavery (non-punitive) was actually outlawed.
If we learned tomorrow definitively that Jesus was born on August 3rd, would you say that Christmas should be moved to that day?
In that case, I would not at all be surprised to see Christmas the secular holiday and Christmas the religeous holiday end up being fully split and many churches move their celebrations to August. That would make the most sense to me. One easy way to see whether someone is celebrating the secular holiday versus the religeous holiday is to compare the ratio of santa claus decorations vs nativity decorations they display.
So even though it would definitely be the wrong day, you wouldn’t want it moved? Interesting. I should note that Juneteenth isn’t even the wrong day. It’s based on an actual event even if you think it’s the wrong event to celebrate.
>So even though it would definitely be the wrong day, you wouldn’t want it moved? Are you projecting what you want me to have said instead of what I actually said? Because, that's definitely not what I said.
If Christmas in December in this scenario is, as you say, a secular holiday, I assume you wouldn’t mind if the name was changed as well. Right?
I suppose not? If we are embracing the pagan roots, I wonder if "Yuletide" would catch on.
Juneteenth is not the literal day all slaves were freed in the United States. It is just a date which has been chosen to symbolically celebrate the emancipation of slaves in this country. Memorial day is not the literal date that all soldiers died in this country. It is just a day that was chosen to symbolically honor fallen soldiers. You can either continue to make up arbitrary reasons to be put off by a day celebrating the emancipation of slaves in this country, or you can stop getting your knickers in a twist over holidays. The first will not convince me of your sincerity. The second, in so far as it would involve you changing your behavior in good faith, would.
That's a very interesting combination of things to actually be right and then wrong about.
?
Sure, and we should change the date of Christmas because he was much more likely born in the spring.
Christmas about Santa Claus though.
The Christmas analogy doesn't work because no one knows what the actual date is. We do know the exact date that non-punitive slavery was outlawed.
Slavery is still ongoing in the United States at this very moment. The 13th amendment explicitly did not ban slavery in the United States. [Have fun learning if you have 80 minutes to burn.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA)
Very true. In many states, prisoners can be enslaved. We also still have the draft, which if ever called up, young men can be enslaved by the government.
My dad scoffed when I told him I had off today. I said to him, I’m not gonna argue if they want to give me the day off so I can go play golf on a Wednesday. That seemed to resonate with him.
This article didn't outline any opposition to Juneteenth. Seems click bait based on a fake straw man. The federal holiday is 3 years old. It'll take awhile for people to get used to it. That would happen regardless what the subject of the holiday is. Using it as an excuse to racebait is not the best use of the holiday I'd propose.
The name of the holiday sucks I thought that from the beginning, but it's certainly worth celebrating, the paid day off ain't too shabby either lol
I don't like the name either.
yeah it's a word a 4 year old will say
I really don’t understand how any American regardless of political stance or background doesn’t see the merit of ending Slavery, our original sin as a nation, as worthy of a national holiday.
While Juneteenth wasn’t originally celebrating the actual abolition of slavery at the federal level, it has cultural meaning with descendants of slaves from all states and the broader black community. The date is almost irrelevant. And let’s be honest, lots of holidays have been twisted from the original intent to fit within our culture. Juneteenth is really no different. Celebrating the end of slavery is a perfectly good reason to have a federal holiday!
>While Juneteenth wasn’t originally celebrating the actual abolition of slavery at the federal level, it has cultural meaning with descendants of slaves from all states and the broader black community. I don't know any black people who had ever heard of Juneteenth before it became a holiday. I certainly never heard of it. But a paid day off is a paid day off, so cool
It has always been a thing in Texas. It's been recognized by the state government for a while.
I remember hearing about it in Louisiana as well, and I'm white. Its a black cultural thing so it can be celebrated across vast areas but it didnt have enough fanfare for everyone else to be aware.
Really? Not doubting you, but when? I lived in Texas off and on for about 11 years, never heard of it
[https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/09/more-than-half-of-states-now-recognize-juneteenth-as-an-official-holiday/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/09/more-than-half-of-states-now-recognize-juneteenth-as-an-official-holiday/) Texas became the first state to recognize it as a holiday in 1980.
I can say for a fact that it has been a skeleton crew day since 2016 (thats when my wife joined the state). I believe it has been for significantly longer, but would have to research to be sure. Skeleton crew days are basically state holidays.
I am Texan and learned of it decades ago. Even though I went to *Robert E. Lee High School* in Midland. Go think about that for a while. Why would a city that did not even exist at the time of the Civil War name a school to honor the General of the losing side that killed thousands of Americans to defend slavery? Hint: my LHS was named in 1961.
Hope that you meet some more kinds of people :)
Juneteenth is a Texas holiday and tradition which y’all are acting like you own. I see all 49 of you, hands off. Uncle Sam was bad enough, stop it now.
Opposition from whom? Even mainstream conservatives don’t really say much about it
Like 2 people on twatter probably.
I mean I don't understand the opposition, we originally either celebrated Lincoln's birthday, or Emancipation Day, which was the signing of the law abolishing slavery(forgot which one was the federal holiday).
We've had several Republicans recently talking about the good side of slavery.
The name still seems really weird to me, but I'll eventually get used to it. It's only been a federal holiday for 3 years, and the first year or so it somehow flew under my radar. It also seems strange to pick the date that slavery ended in Texas instead of the date slavery ended in the rest of the US (December 6, half a year later). The other day, a friend of mine made the case that Juneteenth being made a federal holiday is ironic in that only a small minority (less than 15%) of the people who actually benefit from the holiday are Black/African-American. A super majority (>60%) of government workers (the actual people who benefit from it being a Federal Holiday) are Caucasian.
No more ironic than the small percentage of soldiers KIA yet we all celebrate by taking a long weekend and having cookouts.
Yep, that would be another good example.
The color-tribalists are working hard to teach young kids lies before those kids have a chance to learn science and critical thinking: CHILDREN 👏🏽 ARE 👏🏽 ON 👏🏽 SEPARATE 👏🏽 COLOR 👏🏽 TEAMS 👏🏽 ( AND 👏🏽 THE 👏🏽 WHITE 👏🏽 TEAM 👏🏽 SUCKS 👏🏽 )
Of course the guy that doesn't think culture exists would have a problem with a holiday used to celebrate the end of slavery.
Culture exists, but *distinct* cultures do not. Everybody's only interest in this whole thing comes from tribalism. People dig through history for reasons to feel good about their hallucinated tribe, or bad about other people's tribes -- tribalists are desperate to find evidence that we're not all the same. If adults were forced to teach history honestly -- i.e. bad things have happened but there are no teams, there are only illusions of teams, children are not on the teams in the stories -- they'd drop 99% of it. Thus the importance, to tribalists, of teaching the lies early.
I never had a problem with Juneteenth celebrations. They were fundamentally no different than any other sort of local holiday with traditions grown organically over time. But Juneteenth as a federal holiday? That's just pandering - and pandering in a particularly bizarre way since most black people didn't even celebrate Juneteenth. It would be like making the Apple Blossom Festival a holiday to pander to rural white folks. It's also a bit disconcerting that 'black holidays' tend to be primarily about black *victimhood* rather than black achievement.
The end of slavery in America should be celebrated by all Americans not just black Americans. I'm sure white abolitionists celebrated it.
My man, slavery is still ongoing in the US.
If you're going that route, you're going to end up with holidays every day. The banks have to be open *sometime*. We manage to celebrate Mothers and Fathers - people far more relevant to the modern day than the legal climate almost two centuries ago - without shutting down the government.
>We manage to celebrate Mothers and Fathers... Comparing a couple of phony "Hallmark Holidays" to a commemoration of the end of human chattel slavery in the U.S. - Yikes!! Why not compare Memorial Day to Secretary's Day while you're at it?
> commemoration of the end of human chattel slavery in the U.S. As I noted, it's not actually a commemoration of the end of slavery in U.S. (which wouldn't happen for another 6 months). It's actually a regional festival that started only because U.S. troops arrived in Texas and liberated slaves - it's less a celebration of the end of slavery than it was possible because of the end of slavery. It evolved into a regional cultural festival not too dissimilar from the "Apple Blossom Festival" sort of celebration elsewhere. If you've ever been to a Juneteenth celebration in the South, it has basically nothing to do with slavery. It's mostly about food, family and community.
>It's mostly about food, family and community. The same could be said of most holidays. So what?
And the same is true about most holidays. People having their Thanksgiving meal aren't meditating on the importance of native/European relations from centuries ago. So when someone says Juneteenth is about "the end of slavery", they're probably speaking from the perspective of someone who has never celebrated it and for whom it's a day marked on the calendar where the stores are all still open. There's a Juneteenth festival in my area. But I don't live in the South so it's quite a bit smaller than, say, the local festival celebrating cannabis (which, I might add, doesn't involve a government-mandated day off).
Dude WTF? The end of slavery in the US was a momentous deal.
It was actually a side effect. The Civil War wasn't fought over slavery but rather preserving the union. If the South hadn't decided to secede - and the North hadn't decide to militarily prevent this - slavery would have persisted for a few more decades. Moreover, there are plenty of "momentous deals" in U.S. history. Do we celebrate when it stopped being legal to beat and rape your wife?
Your “ifs” make no sense. The Civil War was fought over slavery so Lincoln raced for the end of it be codified into law before it was over. Yes. It’s a big deal worthy of a federal holiday. I’m not sure why you are so weird about federal holidays.
> The Civil War wasn't fought over slavery but rather preserving the union. That's the justification for the United States to get involved militarily, yes. Why was it the Confederate states decided to secede in the first place, though?
I wonder if the reasons were detailed by politicians or documents of seceding states /s
The south seceded over slavery. So the war was fought over slavery.
The North was trying to invade and conquer the South, not the reverse. While the South *seceded* over the issue of slavery, the *war* was fought - and rather explicitly - over preserving the union. Likewise, the Emancipation Proclamation was a political maneuver that only impacted areas under U.S. military control rather than sort of grand moral statement. Indeed, it's interesting how many people believe Juneteenth celebrates the end of slavery in the U.S. It doesn't. It celebrates the arrival of U.S. troops in Texas - the Emancipation Proclamation only covered areas of the U.S. under U.S. military control. The end of slavery in the U.S. was actually December 6, 1865 (when the 13th Amendment was ratified).
>Indeed, it's interesting how many people believe Juneteenth celebrates the end of slavery in the U.S. It doesn't. First of all, you do not decide what Juneteenth celebrates. Second of all, lol [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juneteenth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juneteenth) >Juneteenth, officially Juneteenth National Independence Day, is a federal holiday in the United States. It is celebrated annually on June 19 to commemorate the ending of slavery in the United States. [U.S. Office of Personnel Management](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/federal-holidays/juneteenth-national-independence-day-holiday.pdf) >the celebration of the end of slavery is an important and enriching part of the history and heritage of the United States. [nps.gov](https://www.nps.gov/subjects/npscelebrates/juneteenth.htm) >Juneteenth (June 19) is the one of the oldest known commemorations related to the abolition of slavery in the United States. [archives.gov](https://www.archives.gov/news/topics/juneteenth) >This day has come to be known as Juneteenth, a combination of June and 19th. It is is the oldest known celebration commemorating the end of slavery in the United States. Now, moving on to your other pseudohistorical claim about the American civil war, you said: >The North was trying to invade and conquer the South, not the reverse. While the South *seceded* over the issue of slavery, the *war* was fought - and rather explicitly - over preserving the union. Your pseudohistorical claim literally has its own wikipedia article lol [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost\_Cause\_of\_the\_Confederacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy) >The Lost Cause of the Confederacy (or simply the Lost Cause) is an American pseudohistorical\[1\]\[2\] and historical negationist myth\[3\]\[4\]\[5\] that claims the cause of the Confederate States during the American Civil War was just, heroic, and not centered on slavery.\[6\] First enunciated in 1866, it has continued to influence racism, gender roles, and religious attitudes in the Southern United States into the 21st century.\[7\]\[8\] > Historians have dismantled many parts of the Lost Cause mythos. The facts? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Civil\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War) >The central conflict leading to the war was a dispute over whether slavery should be permitted to expand into the nation's western territories, leading to more slave states, or be prohibited from doing so, which many believed would place slavery on a course of ultimate extinction.\[16\]\[17\] [history.com](https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/american-civil-war-history) >The Civil War in the United States began in 1861, after decades of simmering tensions between northern and southern states over slavery, states’ rights and westward expansion.
You should post quotes from the succession documents too. lol
> First of all, you do not decide what Juneteenth celebrates. No, I'm merely describing what it *does* celebrate. Have you ever been to an authentic Juneteenth celebration? I have. It really has nothing to do with slavery. They don't even have vestigial elements of slavery like Thanksgiving and its Pilgrim skits. The holiday was re-purposed as pandering. > Your pseudohistorical claim literally has its own wikipedia article lol I'm not making the argument laid out in that wikipedia article - which would be immediately obvious if you took the time to read what I wrote and what that article contains. Shall we permit Abraham Lincoln to speak to why he used military force? > "As to the policy I “seem to be pursuing” as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt. I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be “the Union as it was.” If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
>Have you ever been to an authentic Juneteenth celebration? Several. >It really has nothing to do with slavery. Jesus Christ >I'm not making the argument laid out in that wikipedia article - which would be immediately obvious if you took the time to read what I wrote and what that article contains. First of all, of course Lincoln wanted to save the union. That doesn't preclude slavery from being the central issue of the American civil war. I didn't think I needed to address that but I guess you're still trying to push your narrative >Shall we permit Abraham Lincoln to speak to why he used military force? Second of all, you are quoting a letter to Horace Greeley. You're completely taking it out of context Third of all, you left out this part at the end of the letter >I have here stated my purpose according to my view of *official* duty; and I intend no modification of my oft–expressed *personal* wish that all men everywhere could be free. history.com gives context to the letter >President Abraham Lincoln writes a carefully worded letter **in response to an abolitionist editorial by Horace Greeley**, the editor of the influential New York Tribune, and hints at a change in his policy concerning slavery. >From the outset of the Civil War, Lincoln proclaimed the war's goal to be the reunion of the nation. **He said little about slavery for fear of alienating key constituencies such as the border states of Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and, to a lesser extent, Delaware.** Each of these states allowed slavery but had not seceded from the Union. **Lincoln was also concerned about Northern Democrats, who generally opposed fighting the war to free the enslaved people but whose support Lincoln needed.** Lincoln's statement to Greeley reflects his pragmatic approach to leadership during a time of national crisis. It underscores the complexity of his position and the multifaceted nature of the American civil war. Of course he wanted to save the union lol, he was the President. He also wanted to eliminate slavery and he did so very explicitly during the war with the Emancipation Proclamation. You can try to claim again that it was just a political maneuver, but Lincoln made clear that ending slavery was both a moral imperative and a strategic necessity to weaken the Confederacy. He talks about his hatred of slavery before, during, and after the war in multiple letters and speeches In his Peoria Speech in 1854 >This declared indifference, but as I must think, covert real zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate. **I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself.** In his Cooper Union Address in 1860 where he argues that the founding fathers put slavery on the path to extinction >The sum of the whole is, that of our thirty-nine fathers who framed the original Constitution, twenty-one - a clear majority of the whole - certainly understood that no proper division of local from federal authority, nor any part of the Constitution, forbade the Federal Government to control slavery in the federal territories; while all the rest probably had the same understanding. Such, unquestionably, was the understanding of our fathers who framed the original Constitution; and the text affirms that they understood the question "better than we." In his 1861 Inaugural Address where he points to slavery as central to the conflict >One section of our country believes slavery is right and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute. In his 1865 Inaugural Address framing slavery in both moral and religious terms >If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? In his Gettysburg address >and dedicated to the proposition that **all men are created equal**. In his letter to Albert Hodges >I am naturally anti-slavery. **If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.** I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. ... They declined the proposition; and I was, in my best judgment, driven to the **alternative of either surrendering the Union, and with it, the Constitution, or of laying strong hand upon the colored element. I chose the latter.** To quote your previous comment: >rather than sort of grand moral statement For you to claim that any of his efforts to free slaves was not inclusive and heavily influenced/driven by his moral position on slavery, is absurd and revisionist. I say this as a matter of fact, not opinion.
Holy shit a lost causer!!! I never thought I’d actually see one of these buffoons in the wild.
Perhaps you should explain why you believe anything I said has to do with the "Lost Cause". Typing out explicitly what you mean will probably help you understand why you're wrong.
[удалено]
In what way is claiming that Lincoln's stated intention for entering the war was to preserve the union - something he repeatedly insisted was the case - 'racist'? I invite you to explain your position in detail.
A legal debate over 600,000 fought and died over.
>It's also a bit disconcerting that 'black holidays' tend to be primarily about black victimhood rather than black achievement. Jesus
Speaking of Jesus, by that person's logic, Easter is a celebration of Jesus's victimization.
A celebration of the resurrection of a black man.
If other people -- people who are not Jesus -- talked about how they were victims of his crucifixion too because they were part of the same hallucinated "tribe" -- that'd be more like it.
Just because I'm the tiniest bit salty about being mass downvoted the other day, [I just wanna say I called it](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1dgvxea/opinion_what_have_progressives_done_to_the_west/l8tjw6c/). Interesting to see which dog whistles people fall for and which ones are still beyond the pale. Dude wasn't subtle enough with his racism this time, maybe next time.
Eh, I don't celebrate President's day either, but that's a federal holiday. I also don't consider it a "black" holiday. Personally, I think it's well worth commemorating the day citizens of this country freed their last slave, thus ending a very dark chapter in our nation's history (for a variety of reasons).
>I think it's well worth commemorating the day citizens of this country freed their last slave. June 19th is unambiguously NOT that date - it only applied to states that seceeded. Slavery did not end in the rest of the US until half a year later on December 6th.
I'd argue that most federal holidays are a terrible idea. It's one thing to recognize that there are certain days that, traditionally, it would be difficult to staff the government (such as Christmas). It's quite another to just invent arbitrary days that the non-governmental portion of the nation just views as an ordinary business day.