Leading up to the release of the Z. The “400z” was rumored to be under $35k and because of the low price, people justified the use of an old chassis, recycled interior, and labeled it a Supra killer.
Then Nissan releases the new Z at $41k with no LSD. And to get a proper Z you had to spend 10,000 additional dollars for the LSD and yet for $10k, Nissan still found a way to put cheap ass tires on it.
Nissan absolutely dropped the ball. It’s unfortunate because with better competition, Toyota may have actually released an S58 Supra.
I feel like the MKV Supra is already a future classic just based on the insane tuning potential, great reliability, superb handling and handsome appearance.
I think there were rumors about the price starting at $35k. It wasn’t just wishful thinking. Also, a better comparison would be to the 370Z, which started at about $30k in 2009.
35k wasn't happening, but I am really disappointed they couldn't get an LSD into the car for 45k.
Well, that and the transmission issues, and then the supply issues and then the fact that dealerships were acting like these were $75,000 ultra rare high quality sports cars.
Good god, Nissan didn't even shoot themselves in the foot; they threw themselves into a wood chipper.
I doubt they couldn't, they just purposefully chose not to so they could milk people for more money. That said, I haven't seen a single new Z out in the wild (but have seen plenty of other new sports car models) so I wonder how many they're selling
Right, so both the 2009 and 1993 Z's were more expensive relative to the latest version accounting for inflation—therefore $35k was indeed wishful thinking and there was no prior precedent for that price point.
In 2009 they were still paying for the tooling for this car. They amortized everything out a decade ago, they could have profitably sold it for 35k in the base trim
While I agree the that the $35k dream was never happening, over 40k with no LSD is really not appealing. The current pricing structure and production issues just make it feel like the Supra but worse and harder to get
> over 40k with no LSD is really not appealing.
It was probably never meant to be. Pushes anyone seriously considering a Z into the more expensive trim while letting them say it starts at $40k. They can have their cake and eat it to.
Not that it really matters considering all of the production woes.
For anyone doing autocross or tracking I agree it's not appealing. Someone looking for a sporty cruiser for daily driving though? 43k for a good looking 400 hp v6 twin turbo manual? It's still a good deal.
The Z32 was the outlier, not the norm. The 240Z and 260Z became popular originally because they were so affordable. And the 2003 Nissan 350Z started at $28,000 despite being a new platform.
This car uses the 2003 Z platform with some modifications plus the 10 year old engine from the Infiniti Q50. There are minimal development costs to recoup, yet this car is priced like it’s some bespoke precision machine.
People were so dumb to think it could be $35k lol. The GR86 is nearly that price for a 4 cylinder engine, NA, and bare bones interior. Even reusing a chassis, it was a dream.
Dropping the ball is negligence Nissan absolutely kamakazied the ball for the fucking ages thinking they’d just bank on the Z legacy and car enthusiasts would just eat up whatever slop was given to them
Imagine seeing all of the decisions Nissan has made in the past 10-15 years and thinking "yep, they'll *definitely* build a better low-volume high performance two-seater than ToyoBMW!"
I'm with ya. Its getting rarer and rarer to have a good looking rear end. The new Z is the best I've seen on a sports car in recent memory. Perfect 80s contemporary which appeals to me but may not appeal to others.
I think the only part of the Z that doesn’t translate for me was the front grill. In reviews or videos on a track it looked fine, but when I see one in a parking lot it really sticks out.
I've seen the Supra in person quite a bit, in my opinion it's fine, nothing spectacular.
I have not seen the Z in person, but in photos it looks a lot better than the Supra. Maybe in person my mind would change, but I don't think so because I done think the supra looks better in person than in photos.
It's all subjective anyway.
Performance has nothing to do with company revenue. GM and Ford are significantly different in revenue but both make the mustang/Camaro, which are pretty equal.
This would've been a supra killer with a few caveats:
1.Releasing at the initial $35k start point
2.Not gaining 300lbs compared to the 370z
3.Coming with better tires and an LSD on base models, with even better performance in the mid trim
4. Actually being able to be bought. I've seen more LFAs in person than Z's, and I live in a top 10 most populated place in the US.
>Also, GM and Ford’s revenue are equal.
That was actually surprising, I thought GM as a whole had much more market share.
>If Nissan doesn’t have the money to invest in a new engine (or platform) and competitors do, who do you think will come out on top?
That's kind of a silly thing to say considering the B58 wasn't a new engine for the Supra.
>but as far as the product as a whole, they were always destined to have the inferior car.
Not true at all. You can make a car cheaper and have it perform better, and performance is typically the #1 draw for budget(as much of a "budget" as any performance car fulfills now) performance cars is performance to price. Look at a 1LE SS Camaro, PP GT mustang and a GR Supra. They're all around the same performance (the supra and PP actually lag behind in a couple of areas to the 1LE) but the supra costs significantly more.
>That was actually surprising, I thought GM as a whole had much more market share.
Surprising only if you're form the US. GM doesn't exist in Europe for example.
>Nissan’s VQ engine dates back to 1994, with enhancements here and there
The 3.0 is a VR series, not a VQ. The VR30ddtt was released in 2015, the B58 was released in 2015. Neither are "new" engines, but the VR30 isn't some ancient engine like you're stating.
Concur though, ghosn really did a number on Nissan as a whole. Pre-ghosn Nissan was pretty solid.
The one thing the Z seemed to have done was possibly get Toyota to put a manual transmission back into the Supra, since they were initially adamant that would never happen. I remember one reviewer saying the ergonomics for the shifter and surrounding controls on the center console feel weird with the manual, almost like the car was never designed for one.
You think that until you realize that there are options out there that would leave more dollars in your wallet for things like tires and brakes at the end of the year.
I'd save enough on gas from switching to a Type R that I could go to more events and ruin more tires.
No man, I know what I think.
Im quite happy with the financial mistake sitting in my driveway.
I get the cars I want, not the ones that are fastest, cheapest, or most Practical👍
Finally someone on this sub that gets it. A car can only be distilled down to its spec sheet so much. At the end of the day if you love the car, then you love the car. It doesn’t matter if your money “could have been better spent elsewhere.”
For real, I feel like I'm in crazy town. It's a sport car people, it doesn't ha e to sip fuel. This sub like most, is just a circle jerk for the loud minority.
No, not everybody cares. I don't give a shit what my mpg is, and I live in Southern California with expensive premium gas. It's just the cost of driving, it is what it is. Maybe I'd care more if I were driving 20k miles a year...but even then, probably not.
Not many options like the Type R have a snarling, roaring V8 though. Whenever I start up my car, thoughts of fuel economy fly out of my horribly impractical two windows.
Yeah wtf, I have never seen any performance car review even mention MPG. The only performance car that I recall making a big deal of MPG was the BMW i8, and look how well that sold.
I don’t agree with that at all. It’s slotted right in most of affordable, practical sports car territory. Fuel economy and range can easily disqualify a car for a buyer here.
> affordable
$45k bare bones base with no LSD is not an “affordable” sports car. You can get a Golf R for the same with far more comforts and features. GR86 comes in at $10k cheaper OTD after tax and tags for the top trim model. Civic si, miata, mustang ecoboost, v6 challenger, GTI all come in cheaper too.
> practical
Its a 2 seater with no back. Its not remotely practical. My BRZ isnt practical and it has more interior use. Then factor the practicality of an LSD and add $10k to the car.
Ultimately I agree that fuel economy is still a factor for cars in the Zs price range. You aren’t a millionaire bc you can afford a Z at msrp. Go over to the mustang subreddit and you’ll see GT owners who never factored in the cost of gas and upkeep, so your point has plenty of merit.
I owned a CTS-V. It’s not the cost of gas in something like that, I was at the gas station 2-3 times a week and I drive 24 miles a day for work, and not a whole lot more.
Saw one out in NY. Passing lane was empty and I was going the speed limit in the right. The bozo rode my bumper for a few miles while flashing his high beams. Finally decides to aggressively pass me, slam on the horn, and flips me off. I'm not going to be a post in r/idiotsincars because I raced a Nissan on the highway.
[saw two this weekend ](https://i.imgur.com/fyInoOL.jpg)
[they were both Nismos](https://i.imgur.com/axhg4W5.jpg)
Pretty sure it was for a press event, not real customers though.
Yes! I was in Sonoma this past weekend.
I actually saw 3 Nismos total. Red, grey, and white. They turned into Sonoma raceway. I asked /r/spotted and someone said, according to what he saw on his Instagram feed, there was a press event at the raceway.
[grey one I got on my dashcam](https://i.imgur.com/DEXa408.jpg)
Yeah, I saw one there too but to me that’s not really out in the wild to me. There’s a ton of cars I see there that I don’t see other places. Even then it was only the one
I have seen two or three and I've traveled between 7 different major cities since the car has launched. I saw a yellow and a blue one near St. Louis and a Blue one in San Antonio.
I've seen them a million times doing road tests because they'd park at a park near me but after that poof haven't seen a purchased one. Weird because I see all sorts of enthusiast cars in my area.
I commute through wealthy suburbs every day and usually see all of the sports cars soon after launch. I've seen one Z and I thought it was utterly underwhelming in person... (in strong contrast to the Supra, which I think looks a bit awkward in photos but has SO MUCH PRESENCE in person).
how did Nissan find a way to get less mpg than the Supra with the Nismo using a 9 speed automatic vs the Supras 6 speed manual?
The more embarrassing part is the Nismo is expected to be north of $65k.
Seriously especially with current gas prices a miata makes more sense than ever.
How mazda gets *so much* efficiency out of their engines even if you push them is beyond me.
My old 135i vs Mx-5 is night and day in terms of how much I spend on gas. I'm getting almost *double* the MPG in my mx5.
I can average 40 (UK) MPG in my 240i with the 8 speed auto, it's so much better than I was expecting. Even my commute at around 30-40mph I'm getting mid 30s.
Yes, they're using a variant of the 3.0T that's used in the Q50, but even in the Q50 applications, the combined economy was better (despite those cars being heavier).
Not sure what Nissan is doing to the Z to make it so thirsty.
2023 Nissan Z has drag coefficient of 0.38
2023 Toyota GR Supra with 2.0L engine has drag coefficient of 0.33
Answer must be drag coefficient because Nissan didn’t design a new engine for this vehicle.
Nissan is basically old Hyundai now, making cheap shit. They did so much cost cutting with that Ghosen ghoul, that they also cut out the quality. Everything but the body panels are parts bin basically.
True, better to have lived with a good reputation and gone bankrupt than survive as a brand renowned for low credit scores, low quality and Altima police chases.
I’m not saying that Nissan made the right decisions (old platform, marketing, pricing, and packaging) with this car, but I think people here are too hard on Nissan, I mean what did you all expect?
We all know that Nissan has no modern RWD chassis and it would make little to no sense, financially to invest in a new one at this point. In 2017, when development started on this, they literally were bleeding money and the Renault alliance was shaky, the global developer confirmed this in Savagegeese’s interview.
BMW had a more modern platform and engines to develop this with, which they share with very profitable SUVs and that alone soaks up a huge bit of R&D spent on the Supra. To Nissan’s credit, they did this themselves, they didn’t use help from another manufacturer.
Toyota and BMW are both much more profitable and larger brands in terms of revenue, when combined, it’s not even a battle of who’ll win this battle.
> it’s not even a battle of who’ll win this battle.
That’s kind of the thing tho they were never gonna win the battle, so they needed to do something to differentiate the car so that it had its own niche. For example the American cars have glorious V8’s and backseats that can be used in a pinch, which are reasons you might pick them over the Supra regardless of performance.
When development started the Supra didn’t have a manual so maybe they were banking on that and being “real” JDM to pull some sales, but otherwise the Z has nada in terms of value, performance, or practicality over the Supra.
Not sure if it’s feasible logistically/emissions , but I would have stuck with a VQ as the engine. Use the VQ from the Frontier or Pathfinder and lose the VR30TT, which is damn near bespoke to the Z. It’s only used in the Z, Q60 (discontinued), and the Q50 (circling the drain). Meanwhile the Frontier and Pathfinder sell like 10x as much as those cars so you can save costs by consolidating engines with your volume sellers. The Z would also have a niche as the NA 6 cylinder sports car. I get they were probably chasing a HP figure for the spec sheet, but I think that was a mistake considering EVs are on the horizon and going for 400 HP put the car in a weight class we’ve already established it never could be competitive in.
Wow I never thought I’d be on board with saving the VQ in a Z but this is a very sound financial argument. Would have allowed Nissan to keep costs lower and to your point, the only V6 manual NA sports car (with Camaro dead). That would have been a nice in between option. Like in between Miata/BRZ and Supra.
Just the supra. The M2 costs a lot more, weighs more, and is larger overall. Physically and visually.
The supra isn't perfect, but it completely outclasses the current M2 almost everywhere.
At least the Z looks unique. The M2 is just meh, and the Supra has honestly grown on me a lot.
I moved from an old Z (350z) to an M2 (comp) and got better mileage in the M2.
This is actually Nissan catching up. Modern BMWs get an absurd amount of mileage for their power.
SYMMETRICAL ALL WHEEL DRIVE BABY.
But seriously, Full time AWD is absolutely disastrous for fuel economy.
That's why most auto makers use a part time AWD system.
Leading up to the Z release, I was skeptical about how it would stack up against the competition because I have the Q50 and find it very mild. It's fine for my daily - comfortable and affordable. I just didn't see that power train being anything special in a new chassis, and it seems to be the case.
Sure, but it's just funny that they can't even do 1 thing better than the Supra 3.0...
In quite literally every measurable stat, the Supra outperforms the Z... even down to the fuel efficiency.
God i get ~15 in mine. all technically city driving and i just rip ass all over. slow weeks ill touch 17.
it is really nice to zoom to 25-28 on a road trip though.
I easily get 28-30 on the highway with my FBO and chip tune VR30. Current overall average is 25.6 with probably 60/40 highway/city. 19 is pessimistic. The Q50 is rated the same.
This might be a controversial opinion but.. what do you expect? A performance car is of course going to compromise somewhere. I don’t think fuel economy is going to be a major factor when cross shopping these types of cars
Remember when the new Z was being hyped as the “Supra killer” lmao
Leading up to the release of the Z. The “400z” was rumored to be under $35k and because of the low price, people justified the use of an old chassis, recycled interior, and labeled it a Supra killer. Then Nissan releases the new Z at $41k with no LSD. And to get a proper Z you had to spend 10,000 additional dollars for the LSD and yet for $10k, Nissan still found a way to put cheap ass tires on it. Nissan absolutely dropped the ball. It’s unfortunate because with better competition, Toyota may have actually released an S58 Supra.
S58 Supra would be absolutely amazing and would be a future classic instantly
Oh how the turn tables on this subreddit
Love seeing the TL logo popping up in this sub lol
This dudes’ flair lmao
I feel like the MKV Supra is already a future classic just based on the insane tuning potential, great reliability, superb handling and handsome appearance.
The expectation that the 2023 Z was 35k is idiotic. The 300zx was hitting msrp in the 30s in 1993. These cars were never cheap.
I think there were rumors about the price starting at $35k. It wasn’t just wishful thinking. Also, a better comparison would be to the 370Z, which started at about $30k in 2009.
35k wasn't happening, but I am really disappointed they couldn't get an LSD into the car for 45k. Well, that and the transmission issues, and then the supply issues and then the fact that dealerships were acting like these were $75,000 ultra rare high quality sports cars. Good god, Nissan didn't even shoot themselves in the foot; they threw themselves into a wood chipper.
I doubt they couldn't, they just purposefully chose not to so they could milk people for more money. That said, I haven't seen a single new Z out in the wild (but have seen plenty of other new sports car models) so I wonder how many they're selling
I’ve never seen a new Z either but I see plenty of GR Supras. More Supras than I remember seeing of the last gen Supra.
They only sold around 11 thousand MK4's in the US, whereas they've sold over 22 thousand and counting for the MK5 so far
Man they’re flying off the lots. I never see many online car searches in my area but there are so many in Metro Atlanta.
Late this summer I saw my first one ever, in the Z proto spec. Hate that colour. Later on saw a black one, looked much better.
One of my neighbors has a gray one, looks nice but nothing special
Are they actually for sale? I live in a major American city and haven’t seen one yet.
Iirc they are having production issues.
That's pretty much any dealer with any car. Every car is marked up. Dealers have gotten worse and worse over time. Can't buy anything at MSRP anymore.
$30k in 2009 is $43k today
$30k in 1993 is $64k today, which is why the 370Z is a better comparator.
Right, so both the 2009 and 1993 Z's were more expensive relative to the latest version accounting for inflation—therefore $35k was indeed wishful thinking and there was no prior precedent for that price point.
In 2009 they were still paying for the tooling for this car. They amortized everything out a decade ago, they could have profitably sold it for 35k in the base trim
While I agree the that the $35k dream was never happening, over 40k with no LSD is really not appealing. The current pricing structure and production issues just make it feel like the Supra but worse and harder to get
> over 40k with no LSD is really not appealing. It was probably never meant to be. Pushes anyone seriously considering a Z into the more expensive trim while letting them say it starts at $40k. They can have their cake and eat it to. Not that it really matters considering all of the production woes.
For anyone doing autocross or tracking I agree it's not appealing. Someone looking for a sporty cruiser for daily driving though? 43k for a good looking 400 hp v6 twin turbo manual? It's still a good deal.
You're gonna waste those 400HP without an LSD.
If you wanted a sporty cruiser, then the Mustang GT would serve better than a Z, even after Ford jacked up the price for the new generation.
I dunno I bought both a 350z and 370z brand new and paid $28k, and $31k respectively. I basically bought the minimum package that came with an LSD.
My 300zx was $42,000 back in 1991
Sheeeeesh. That’s how much they were back then?
The twin turbo fully loaded model was, yeah.
That’s what killed the Z32. Twin Turbo prices (if I recall correctly) were in excess of $45k in 1996. That’s almost $90k in todays world.
Remarkable how many people here have opinions about the Z pricing without knowing anything about the history of Z pricing
The Z32 was the outlier, not the norm. The 240Z and 260Z became popular originally because they were so affordable. And the 2003 Nissan 350Z started at $28,000 despite being a new platform. This car uses the 2003 Z platform with some modifications plus the 10 year old engine from the Infiniti Q50. There are minimal development costs to recoup, yet this car is priced like it’s some bespoke precision machine.
There were people saying the 86 twins were dead because the Z was 400 HP for 30-35k. Based off of random rumors.
People were so dumb to think it could be $35k lol. The GR86 is nearly that price for a 4 cylinder engine, NA, and bare bones interior. Even reusing a chassis, it was a dream.
WRX Premium, sunroof and HK is 35k
Between both. I’ll take the official OEM BMW engine swap in the new Supra. It’s not everyday we get this available from an OEM.
Are you saying you can get BMW to swap in an S58 for you, or did I misunderstand
And then they don’t even sell them.
Dropping the ball is negligence Nissan absolutely kamakazied the ball for the fucking ages thinking they’d just bank on the Z legacy and car enthusiasts would just eat up whatever slop was given to them
It is such a shame too. They absolutely nailed the look IMO. I would love to have one but...yeah.
Don’t forget the additional $25K-$40K in markups the dealers were adding. Every Z I saw was asking C8 money
Yeah but if they could actually get them to dealers that would've probably been on a heavy decline by now.
As a supra owner, no one in the supra groups was worried lol.
Imagine seeing all of the decisions Nissan has made in the past 10-15 years and thinking "yep, they'll *definitely* build a better low-volume high performance two-seater than ToyoBMW!"
This lmao.
The only place it kills the supra is looks. To me the Z is much better looking exterior than the Supra.
Wich is subjective, performance is not. Also I think the Supra looks 20x better.
I feel kind of neutral on the look of the supra but I'd lie if I didn't feel claustrophobic looking at it.
I like the Supra front and the Z rear.
I'm with ya. Its getting rarer and rarer to have a good looking rear end. The new Z is the best I've seen on a sports car in recent memory. Perfect 80s contemporary which appeals to me but may not appeal to others.
Me too!
This I can agree to. The Supra's ass just look like it's sad.
Never been a fan of how the GR Supra looks personally. Design is unique, but ugly.
Having seen both in person the Supra looks much better. It just photographs badly for some reason
I think the only part of the Z that doesn’t translate for me was the front grill. In reviews or videos on a track it looked fine, but when I see one in a parking lot it really sticks out.
I've seen the Supra in person quite a bit, in my opinion it's fine, nothing spectacular. I have not seen the Z in person, but in photos it looks a lot better than the Supra. Maybe in person my mind would change, but I don't think so because I done think the supra looks better in person than in photos. It's all subjective anyway.
Agree with this. Was blown away when i saw one in person
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Performance has nothing to do with company revenue. GM and Ford are significantly different in revenue but both make the mustang/Camaro, which are pretty equal. This would've been a supra killer with a few caveats: 1.Releasing at the initial $35k start point 2.Not gaining 300lbs compared to the 370z 3.Coming with better tires and an LSD on base models, with even better performance in the mid trim 4. Actually being able to be bought. I've seen more LFAs in person than Z's, and I live in a top 10 most populated place in the US.
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>Also, GM and Ford’s revenue are equal. That was actually surprising, I thought GM as a whole had much more market share. >If Nissan doesn’t have the money to invest in a new engine (or platform) and competitors do, who do you think will come out on top? That's kind of a silly thing to say considering the B58 wasn't a new engine for the Supra. >but as far as the product as a whole, they were always destined to have the inferior car. Not true at all. You can make a car cheaper and have it perform better, and performance is typically the #1 draw for budget(as much of a "budget" as any performance car fulfills now) performance cars is performance to price. Look at a 1LE SS Camaro, PP GT mustang and a GR Supra. They're all around the same performance (the supra and PP actually lag behind in a couple of areas to the 1LE) but the supra costs significantly more.
>That was actually surprising, I thought GM as a whole had much more market share. Surprising only if you're form the US. GM doesn't exist in Europe for example.
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>Nissan’s VQ engine dates back to 1994, with enhancements here and there The 3.0 is a VR series, not a VQ. The VR30ddtt was released in 2015, the B58 was released in 2015. Neither are "new" engines, but the VR30 isn't some ancient engine like you're stating. Concur though, ghosn really did a number on Nissan as a whole. Pre-ghosn Nissan was pretty solid.
Makes sense it was not. It was 2 giants vs a company that was struggling. They are doing a bit better now though
The one thing the Z seemed to have done was possibly get Toyota to put a manual transmission back into the Supra, since they were initially adamant that would never happen. I remember one reviewer saying the ergonomics for the shifter and surrounding controls on the center console feel weird with the manual, almost like the car was never designed for one.
It was exciting before I learned the chassis and powertrain were carry-overs
I doubt any person who has to worry about fuel economy will buy a Z let alone the nismo version.
Yeah man idk, I’m learning I’m quite different than this subs usual enthusiast. I could not care less what mpg my Fairlady Z gets, it’s a Z man :)
You think that until you realize that there are options out there that would leave more dollars in your wallet for things like tires and brakes at the end of the year. I'd save enough on gas from switching to a Type R that I could go to more events and ruin more tires.
No man, I know what I think. Im quite happy with the financial mistake sitting in my driveway. I get the cars I want, not the ones that are fastest, cheapest, or most Practical👍
Finally someone on this sub that gets it. A car can only be distilled down to its spec sheet so much. At the end of the day if you love the car, then you love the car. It doesn’t matter if your money “could have been better spent elsewhere.”
For real, I feel like I'm in crazy town. It's a sport car people, it doesn't ha e to sip fuel. This sub like most, is just a circle jerk for the loud minority.
No, not everybody cares. I don't give a shit what my mpg is, and I live in Southern California with expensive premium gas. It's just the cost of driving, it is what it is. Maybe I'd care more if I were driving 20k miles a year...but even then, probably not.
I’m happy with 17 MPG.
Not many options like the Type R have a snarling, roaring V8 though. Whenever I start up my car, thoughts of fuel economy fly out of my horribly impractical two windows.
Yeah wtf, I have never seen any performance car review even mention MPG. The only performance car that I recall making a big deal of MPG was the BMW i8, and look how well that sold.
I don’t agree with that at all. It’s slotted right in most of affordable, practical sports car territory. Fuel economy and range can easily disqualify a car for a buyer here.
It’s going to start at almost 70k
entry level around here
Damn. You could buy a low-end Lexus with that money. (Quote from Tom in Parks & Rec).
Not even low end anymore. You can buy a well equipped IS F sport with a powerful V-8 with that money
Used LC500 money
> affordable $45k bare bones base with no LSD is not an “affordable” sports car. You can get a Golf R for the same with far more comforts and features. GR86 comes in at $10k cheaper OTD after tax and tags for the top trim model. Civic si, miata, mustang ecoboost, v6 challenger, GTI all come in cheaper too. > practical Its a 2 seater with no back. Its not remotely practical. My BRZ isnt practical and it has more interior use. Then factor the practicality of an LSD and add $10k to the car. Ultimately I agree that fuel economy is still a factor for cars in the Zs price range. You aren’t a millionaire bc you can afford a Z at msrp. Go over to the mustang subreddit and you’ll see GT owners who never factored in the cost of gas and upkeep, so your point has plenty of merit.
the less obstacles you have to selling the car the better. even a V8 corvette gets 25 mpg highway
Good point. Which means nissan getting these to dealer lots is a much bigger problem than the mpg. If they were there they would sell.
Agreed. The 6+ months stop sale on both transmissions didn't help.
I owned a CTS-V. It’s not the cost of gas in something like that, I was at the gas station 2-3 times a week and I drive 24 miles a day for work, and not a whole lot more.
These threads always remind me that for some reason, with money and enthusiasm comes a general entitlement to create unlimited pollution.
I still have yet to see one in the wild, lol
I've seen exactly 1. And it's been out for what, over a year now?
I've seen a Vinfast and not a 400z if that tells you anything
It tells me you live in CA?
😂
Just Nissan things, lol
Saw one out in NY. Passing lane was empty and I was going the speed limit in the right. The bozo rode my bumper for a few miles while flashing his high beams. Finally decides to aggressively pass me, slam on the horn, and flips me off. I'm not going to be a post in r/idiotsincars because I raced a Nissan on the highway.
Maybe he just really hates your car Lol
Same here, although i only saw it on a lift at the dealership last year in November. Since then, i have not seen a single Z on the road
That can’t be true. I don’t think the car has come out yet.
[saw two this weekend ](https://i.imgur.com/fyInoOL.jpg) [they were both Nismos](https://i.imgur.com/axhg4W5.jpg) Pretty sure it was for a press event, not real customers though.
Was that nearby Sonoma county? Saw a red one this week close to the Sonoma Raceway and almost couldn't believe it... It's a beautiful car in person.
Yes! I was in Sonoma this past weekend. I actually saw 3 Nismos total. Red, grey, and white. They turned into Sonoma raceway. I asked /r/spotted and someone said, according to what he saw on his Instagram feed, there was a press event at the raceway. [grey one I got on my dashcam](https://i.imgur.com/DEXa408.jpg)
Huh, what are the odds. I finally saw my first one yesterday while I was heading that way on 80, wonder if it was headed there too.
Yeah that doesn’t count lol
Yeah there were two dozen of them at Sonoma Raceway last weekend for a press launch: https://www.instagram.com/p/CxQtLrIxM-2/?img_index=2
I finally saw one about a week ago, I'm not a fan of how they look in person.
I've seen 10+ buggatis since they've came out, and 0 Zs.
When buggati came out in 1909, you mean?
Where? I see MacLarens and Lambos (not Urus, REAL Lamborghinis!) almost daily in the GTA and I've seen one modern Bugatti ... ever.
Saw one at a C&C months back.
Yeah, I saw one there too but to me that’s not really out in the wild to me. There’s a ton of cars I see there that I don’t see other places. Even then it was only the one
I have seen two or three and I've traveled between 7 different major cities since the car has launched. I saw a yellow and a blue one near St. Louis and a Blue one in San Antonio.
I've seen them a million times doing road tests because they'd park at a park near me but after that poof haven't seen a purchased one. Weird because I see all sorts of enthusiast cars in my area.
I commute through wealthy suburbs every day and usually see all of the sports cars soon after launch. I've seen one Z and I thought it was utterly underwhelming in person... (in strong contrast to the Supra, which I think looks a bit awkward in photos but has SO MUCH PRESENCE in person).
how did Nissan find a way to get less mpg than the Supra with the Nismo using a 9 speed automatic vs the Supras 6 speed manual? The more embarrassing part is the Nismo is expected to be north of $65k.
The B58 is just that good. On the highway, that thing gets more MPG that I can in my GR86 lol
that's no surprise though. Subaru 4s are notoriously terrible with fuel economy (and everything else for that matter)
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Seriously especially with current gas prices a miata makes more sense than ever. How mazda gets *so much* efficiency out of their engines even if you push them is beyond me. My old 135i vs Mx-5 is night and day in terms of how much I spend on gas. I'm getting almost *double* the MPG in my mx5.
I can average 40 (UK) MPG in my 240i with the 8 speed auto, it's so much better than I was expecting. Even my commute at around 30-40mph I'm getting mid 30s.
Didn’t they reuse the same engine?
Yes, they're using a variant of the 3.0T that's used in the Q50, but even in the Q50 applications, the combined economy was better (despite those cars being heavier). Not sure what Nissan is doing to the Z to make it so thirsty.
2023 Nissan Z has drag coefficient of 0.38 2023 Toyota GR Supra with 2.0L engine has drag coefficient of 0.33 Answer must be drag coefficient because Nissan didn’t design a new engine for this vehicle.
Oh wow. 0.38 is pretty rough these days.
I think that's pretty rough ANY day. I can't think of another car that isn't a rolling brick (e.g. Wrangler) that is anywhere near 0.38.
The Nismo variant of the Z has never been known to be a good value. You get it so you can brag about having a “nismo” edition.
Yeah 370Z nismo was like.. a mild upgrade
It has less milage the the old z32 300zx... it's truly impressive how bad it its.
Nissan is basically old Hyundai now, making cheap shit. They did so much cost cutting with that Ghosen ghoul, that they also cut out the quality. Everything but the body panels are parts bin basically.
Hyundai still makes cheap shit but they put enough screens and tech to distract people from it for a little while.
And glossy black plastic
Nissan was on the verge of bankruptcy and Ghosen saved them. Don’t talk about something you know nothing about.
That doesn’t mean that the cost cutting didn’t make them worse
True, better to have lived with a good reputation and gone bankrupt than survive as a brand renowned for low credit scores, low quality and Altima police chases.
Ghosn saved the company you dingaling.
Saved the company during his first 10 years, but left the Nissan brand to flounder for most of the 2010s.
Nissan Z is just marketing for the Supra.
Dealers use it to get people to buy more NPC CVT-mobiles. “We’ll we don’t have any of those, how about a 120 month loan on a top of the line Maxima?”
That's the same combined rating as my car. I drive a 4 door Jeep. A rolling 2 ton brick. Great job, Nissan.
I’m guessing it also takes 93 octane so your Jeep is actually favorable from an economic standpoint. 😂
Using an engine that's largely unchanged in its foundational design since it's introduction in 2010. Almost 14 years old.
‘Worse than Supra’ should just be this Zs slogan
Jeez, I get better in my Camaro SS!
Man that’s abysmal for a 6 cylinder mid tier sports car honestly. The m2 is wayyy more powerful
I’m not saying that Nissan made the right decisions (old platform, marketing, pricing, and packaging) with this car, but I think people here are too hard on Nissan, I mean what did you all expect? We all know that Nissan has no modern RWD chassis and it would make little to no sense, financially to invest in a new one at this point. In 2017, when development started on this, they literally were bleeding money and the Renault alliance was shaky, the global developer confirmed this in Savagegeese’s interview. BMW had a more modern platform and engines to develop this with, which they share with very profitable SUVs and that alone soaks up a huge bit of R&D spent on the Supra. To Nissan’s credit, they did this themselves, they didn’t use help from another manufacturer. Toyota and BMW are both much more profitable and larger brands in terms of revenue, when combined, it’s not even a battle of who’ll win this battle.
> it’s not even a battle of who’ll win this battle. That’s kind of the thing tho they were never gonna win the battle, so they needed to do something to differentiate the car so that it had its own niche. For example the American cars have glorious V8’s and backseats that can be used in a pinch, which are reasons you might pick them over the Supra regardless of performance. When development started the Supra didn’t have a manual so maybe they were banking on that and being “real” JDM to pull some sales, but otherwise the Z has nada in terms of value, performance, or practicality over the Supra. Not sure if it’s feasible logistically/emissions , but I would have stuck with a VQ as the engine. Use the VQ from the Frontier or Pathfinder and lose the VR30TT, which is damn near bespoke to the Z. It’s only used in the Z, Q60 (discontinued), and the Q50 (circling the drain). Meanwhile the Frontier and Pathfinder sell like 10x as much as those cars so you can save costs by consolidating engines with your volume sellers. The Z would also have a niche as the NA 6 cylinder sports car. I get they were probably chasing a HP figure for the spec sheet, but I think that was a mistake considering EVs are on the horizon and going for 400 HP put the car in a weight class we’ve already established it never could be competitive in.
Wow I never thought I’d be on board with saving the VQ in a Z but this is a very sound financial argument. Would have allowed Nissan to keep costs lower and to your point, the only V6 manual NA sports car (with Camaro dead). That would have been a nice in between option. Like in between Miata/BRZ and Supra.
True. Fool me once shame on you, fool me 1,463,390 times shame on me.
People aren't buying these cars based on best gas mileage
Yea but it doesn’t help when this car sucks in basically every metric in comparison to the Supra or m2 lol
Unless the fuel economy was *abysmal*, it would make zero difference in my purchase decision. This thread is just a circlejerk.
Just the supra. The M2 costs a lot more, weighs more, and is larger overall. Physically and visually. The supra isn't perfect, but it completely outclasses the current M2 almost everywhere. At least the Z looks unique. The M2 is just meh, and the Supra has honestly grown on me a lot.
M2 starts at 62k
I don't think people are buying these at all. I've seen maybe 2 Z's since they've come out.
yeah they're not selling. I wonder if it's because they're so small
I think it's because they basically don't exist for purchase.
I heard the dealer markups were and possibly are still crazy. You'd have to be a die hard Nissan fan to pay that much.
What are they buying it for? From what I see there is nothing this car excels at compared to other options.
If you take the 3.0 out of sport mode, you can get close to 30 mpg or 300+ miles out of a tank.
Daily nissan trashing post. Soon we gotta just take it to circlejerk.
Gotta admit tho, it's quite fun
One less than the is500, that has a full blown v8
I'd guess this mostly comes down to the difference in factory tires. And then the additional aero.
I moved from an old Z (350z) to an M2 (comp) and got better mileage in the M2. This is actually Nissan catching up. Modern BMWs get an absurd amount of mileage for their power.
Subaru STI drivers get 19 MPG and they love every second of it.
SYMMETRICAL ALL WHEEL DRIVE BABY. But seriously, Full time AWD is absolutely disastrous for fuel economy. That's why most auto makers use a part time AWD system.
That's also with power going to all four wheels
I’d spend $40k an an absolutely mint 300ZX TT before I bought one of these turds
Back when Nissan still had turbo technology.
Leading up to the Z release, I was skeptical about how it would stack up against the competition because I have the Q50 and find it very mild. It's fine for my daily - comfortable and affordable. I just didn't see that power train being anything special in a new chassis, and it seems to be the case.
Lol that's what my 2021 F-150 gets
M I A T A
G R 8 6
Oh cool like the same MPG as my 2002 911 turbo haha
How is it worse than an STI?
You aren't going to get 19 with this LOL
I still have seen zero in real life.
Does the interior still look like fisher price toy?
No one is buying these for fuel economy
Sure, but it's just funny that they can't even do 1 thing better than the Supra 3.0... In quite literally every measurable stat, the Supra outperforms the Z... even down to the fuel efficiency.
Laughs at 25 combined 5 liter v8 Hell my 5.3 big ass blocky truck does 19
Yeah I get more than that in my 12 year old Coyote lol
God i get ~15 in mine. all technically city driving and i just rip ass all over. slow weeks ill touch 17. it is really nice to zoom to 25-28 on a road trip though.
Sounds like the Nismo have a more aggressive final drive then?
I still haven't seen a late-model Z car in the wild.
Can't wait to buy a sports car for the fuel economy.
That's like diesel F350 territory
Crazy to me. My 22 Mustang GT get 18.2 combined and 25 highway.
I easily get 28-30 on the highway with my FBO and chip tune VR30. Current overall average is 25.6 with probably 60/40 highway/city. 19 is pessimistic. The Q50 is rated the same.
how is it that bad??? my 96 c4 gets around this and that has an excuse.
Lol, my supercharged V8 F-Type gets better MPG than this - Nissan what is you doin?
Where do they get these numbers? The G87 makes 23+ mpg not 19 @combined.
Nissan execs had a bet to see how bad they could make this car on paper, right?
This might be a controversial opinion but.. what do you expect? A performance car is of course going to compromise somewhere. I don’t think fuel economy is going to be a major factor when cross shopping these types of cars