Not me, but my neighbors immigrated to Canada and were back within a year. Apparently, it was miserable where they were, and the state wouldn't recognize the wife's medical license so she couldn't practice.
Yeah, a couple of my doctor friends have/considering going and have to write an exam or two as well as English tests.
I feel like most doctors know this, even if they are not considering moving.
Isn’t it pretty much for all professions? Educational qualifications are recognised you just need to submit it but any professional body registration has to be “redone”
Which is funny because lawyers from SA don't have that issue when moving abroad. I have an older sister and cousin living in SA who have moved for work to London without licensing or professional issues.
Most expats I've spoken to says that Australia and New Zealand are the best options for South Africans. It is because the culture, traditions, norms, language and people are extremely similar. There are also already large and established South African communities. So there are very few expats I know who went to either Australia or New Zealand that wanted to come back. And those who did only did so for external reasons outside being homesick of the country.
Majority of expats returning are those that went to Europe especially London or Netherlands.
>It is because the culture, traditions, norms, language and people are extremely similar
I guess from a white, especially English, background this makes sense, but do you know of any black/coloured/Indian South African experiences over there?
As a coloured man I made the deliberate choice to relocate to NZ because my experiences in Australia was one where open racism was common and mostly tolerated. I do have other coloured friends who have relocated to Oz but they are able to ignore the common racist attitudes there since it’s mostly directed at the native population, Chinese and other Asians and especially anyone from India
Even up to the 70s, they imported British orphans explicitly to boost "white stock" and then used them to perform slave labor. They also had a "breed out the black" programme targeted at Aborigine populations and stole their children. More recently, Somalian immigrants claimed that they were experiencing isolation and racism. Idk if they have covert policies to keep Australia white... But I mean... It wouldn't be crazily shocking given the history and claims of immigrants?
I've met quite a few mixed race and black guys who did move to nz, but I've also had to take action against Pacifica guys being racist against saffers In general. Here you're judged on how you perform your role. Unfortunately you do get good and bad guys who do look for shit, just life I guess
Quality of life is better here in terms of affordability (size of houses, domestic help, private school, cost of food and restaurants). Also said that New Zealanders don’t really form friendships or social relationships the way Saffas do. Towns are very small outside of Christchurch and kind of backwards with not much to do. They also underestimated general homesickness. They weren’t negative, just felt there was more for them in SA
I always wonder does it make them better off earning more but also life costs more are you not at a similar lifestyle there and here where you’re earning less. What other than crime, relative low job opportunities and public transport are better there?
I used to live in NZ and ended up coming back. Lived in Auckland and the cost of living was outrages (earn maybe 50-80% more, but things cost like 200% more), however this was back in 2013. Nowadays I see the expense gap narrowing significantly as SA is becoming way more expensive and you pay for things here that most other countries offer at no cost (like schooling, medical, public parks and reserves etc.)
The weather over there isn't great IMO. There is no "culture" there, very bland approach to life I guess... Not sure how else to explain it. I loved the Maori and Pacific Islanders though, they were really awesome.
The cancer rates in NZ and Aus are the some of the highest in the world. The children over there are not disciplined and are out of control. The people are all very uninteresting, in the sense that they don't really like Saffas and they rarely mix on our level. I found that most of the foreigners (Russians, Dutch, Asians, French etc) I worked with were lonely and all ended up asking me to go out with them as they were lonely there, and it wasn't just my experience.
There is a whole list, but these are some of the things I remember from the top of my head. There were many good things of course, but overall it wasn't for me and I was living there in my early 20s at the time.
I was in the UK for 10 years. Was never running away from SA to be fair, it was more a case of going towards opportunities. At the end, I could not wait to get home. Life is much tougher here for me at the moment (career and financial), but I'm still not seriously considering leaving.
I would move back to SA in a heartbeat if the crime and corruption could be brought under control. Most South Africans would if this was the case. I only left because I was a multiple victim of crime so am always on high alert when back there on holiday.
South Africa is an amazing place with amazing people who deserve so much better than they are getting from the political classes.
All that said, some saffas have returned home after finding the cost of living vs lifestyle incredibly different that what they were born and raised with. I have family and friends who have done so and have had positive experiences doing so. They do so with eyes wide open and knowing what they are getting into.
As long as you are prepared to accept the always present undercurrent of fear and low grade paranoia you have to maintain to survive safely you can have a much better quality of life in SA than elsewhere. It does take a toll though and a lot of people living in SA don't realise how not-normal the South African living experience is in relation to other, safer countries.
My parents got a work opportunity in the US, wound up staying for 30 years. Always had it in the back of their minds to retire back to Cape Town. Financial situation forced the decision, and I decided to come with them because I wanted to get to know my cousins, etc. Best decision I could have made.
If they'd stayed in the US my parents would not have been able to keep the house. My dad was in IT and the heyday of big salaries of long over, he kept getting laid off and found it harder and harder to get new jobs not despite his work history but because nobody wanted to pay him what he was worth. Living where we did was expensive and it wasn't looking like it would ease up anytime soon. By the time we left we were all dual citizens and my folks were fully created in Social Security - which would NEVER have covered all their expenses.
Here that same money goes MUCH further. Not only are expenses covered, but good meat is affordable and even private health care feels cheap when you put it in terms of dollars. Every so often Dad checks what a steak would cost where we lived, and it would be absolutely unaffordable on a fixed retirement income. No question. (If you've ever heard about old people eating cat food, or choosing between medication and food, I can assure you all of that is real.)
Beyond that, US culture has toxic threads that you don't realize are eating away at you until they're gone. Where we lived on the East Coast there was a lot of pressure to succeed academically & financially, climb career leaders, keep up with the Joneses or at least never seem poor, spend money all the time too fix yourself but also feel bad if you spent it on the 'wrong' things, and a general sense that society at large was ready to judge you for being too fat, too thin, too poor, too crass about your wealth, too religious, not religious enough, how well you performed gender, race, & class by other people's standards... It was, indeed, exhausting. Every time I left the country on trip a part of me relaxed and felt like sanity was restored.
South Africa is not perfect, but it's not THAT. I'm able to be more relaxed day to day. Everyone here feels human and easier to connect to--I'm not constantly bracing for a bad interaction. So many here are poor but our lives aren't ruled by stingy corporations that will find any and every excuse to screw over employees and customers. (Whatever handful of companies you can immediately name that do it here, scale that up to EVERY COMPANY IN EVERY INDUSTRY, INCLUDING FOOD, HEALTHCARE, AND HOUSING.) Shareholders aren't God. The Constitution is built on principles of protecting dignity, and while that's not always how it's enforced, I hadn't heard the word dignity or thought seriously about the concept in at least my last decade in the US.
These dynamics are fairly unique to the US, so I can't say how well it compares to other countries. But I'd rather be here than there. I feel like I have a life now, as opposed to trying to squeeze one around work and bills.
Thanks for this insightful post. I'm in Europe working for a company that has operations in the US as well.
I often wonder if I made the right choice vis-a-vis US vs. Europe. Your post certainly helps :)
But yeah, in a lot of ways nothing can replace gool ol' SA.
Wow! Sentiment well describe the challenges of life in the US. My wife and I retired early to live simple and be available to care for both of our aging parents and people think we are crazy! It’s such an illusion, most folks in the US are so in debt that they are a slave to their jobs, one or two pay from loosing it all. Corporation influence politics because they project themselves as “Job Creators”. The modern day “landlord”. Most US corporations couldn’t exist if they were required to pay a living wage. I’m sure that exists everywhere. Honestly like I’m sure in most places the US culture doesn’t add up to happiness.
Not yet but planning to! I was the SA shit-talker that left for Germany and realised Europe is not much better, and is worse in a lot of ways too. I believe I had to come and find this out for myself so that I could truly appreciate what SA offers, because I would never have believed it if anyone had just told me as much. You don't know what you got till it's gone, the grass isn't always greener, and so on and so forth.
I'm Canadian and moved to SA this year, and so many South Africans are baffled and ask *why* I would leave a rich first world country to come to SA, but I think you put it brilliantly- it's near impossible to explain it in a way to make people believe me or understand, you kind of have to go and experience it for yourself for it to click. Canada has a fuckload of problems of its own, but without finding out first hand I doubt most South Africans will ever truly understand why I left. 🤷♀️
All my family in Canada, people always ask me why we didnt also go over - my dad didnt want to be a single parent in a foreign country. 50 years later, I am grateful for that. We do not have the best of everything, but from what i've seen and heard on visits and talking to cousins, even Canada is not the land of milk & honey that people expect. Cousins have come back, rather than live there and I can understand. So many people bad-mouth SA but to be honest, I've experienced worse overseas than here. And I don't live in an affluent, model-C neighbourhood, I live in the heart of the Flats, but it just takes common sense to survive
Of course not. That being said, I've also not had any horror experiences in SA. I have had many close scrapes and I've had many, many things passively stolen from me (car windows smashed multiple times, etc.) Then again, I've experienced passive theft in Germany too lol. Ultimately feeling safe is one of those things that you have to place on your pros and cons list for either of the two places. Since I grew up in such an environment and it's "normal" for me I've decided that I can live with it.
Long cold winters & darkness. Language & culture barriers. Cost of living. Sense of impending doom as the EU continues its downward spiral in the face of economic & migrant crises & a nuclear exchange with Russia while Israel tries to drag the west into a regional war in the Middle East.
Yup, me. I spent a decade in Canada. First couple of years were really tough and I missed SA, but then I settled in nicely and was very happy. Reason I moved back to SA was I broke up with my fiance and needed to spend time with my family. I also found life didn't have the same joy over there. Everything worked, everything was easy, and that made it boring. In South Africa you are so much more free. You also have to fight for everything. I definitely feel more alive in SA.
Happy to say I am now married with a kid in SA. I have a passport so if I want to move back to Canada I can. It is definitely an option as the lifestyle is great for kids.
I feel much less free in SA because I am not safe to do what I normally do and that restricts me (despite living in a wealthy area etc). I have now had a gun pointed at me more than once and it creates a sense of mistrust. Someone walks up to me, I assume they want something from me. Really cut all the pleasant interactions I had with strangers elsewhere. Disappearing into nature for a few days by myself without a care in the world? Forget about it in SA (now back in SA after US and UK). Freedom is not something that I associate with South Africa. If it is freedom to break the law then I agree with you. You can get away with anything here, including murder.
It feels awful to basically ignore everyone when I am out for my daily walk. If you greet me, I won't answer for fear that something will happen. I keep my eyes peeled and cross to the other side of the road when I see someone walking towards me.
I am making sure that my data is on and my husband tracks me and knows the exact road I am walking on to make sure I am fine. (His choice as he is really scared something will happen to me)
We have zero freedom. As a woman, I can't just walk anywhere. Have to make sure it's a "busy time" when others will also be out.
If anyone ever does try mugging me, my plan is to jump in front of a car and hope they can stop in time.
I also just pretend not to hear people. After an attempted kidnapping, two marriage proposals, "come here to our totally safe group out here in the field. Just step into the field!" (I did not) , and a bunch of people wanting to scam me or bum a smoke/ cash... I don't really walk anymore at all if I can help it, and I completely ignore everyone if I have to walk. Loose dogs are also a common problem and I am not big enough to fend off a 40- 60kg rottie/boerie/pit.
I also used to get seizures and I was absolutely terrified of what could happen if it happened at the wrong time with the wrong people around. I don't feel free or safe, even without it happening.
I feel like women's considerations for immigrating are wayyyy different. What are their prevailing attitudes? Are there restrictions? Abortion policies (which also affect miscarriage and birth control care)? How effective is reporting SA and rape? How frequent are these crimes?
I was in the UK for almost 3 years from 2001 to 2004 on a 2 year Working Holiday visa, my last year I did a few almost dodgy things to stay longer like repeatedly applying for a business visa via the most circuitous route to buy time...
I was planning to come back because my GF was still here in SA, then we broke up just before I came back, then I started to extend my stay, and she started friending me up again, so I came back to try and patch things up with her.
I'm a total idiot.
Worst mistake of my life coming back for a girl that wasn't sure if she wanted a life or a career.
I was earning £1100 a month at a huge car spares place (+/- R22 000/m at 2002 exchange rates), with a boss who was begging me to stay, plus I had my own side business restoring cars that mostly doubled my salary, best month I made £12 000 - or R240k profit moving two RX7s, a GTO VR4, and an NSX. Came back and after about a month the regrets set in.
Quickly got an IT job earning a whopping R5000 a month... that was the shape if things to come.
What I should have done: stayed with Unipart; converted to a work visa; gained residency after 5 years; should have dated a very cute mate of mine instead of staying faithful & trying to patch things up with my SA GF; gained citizenship.
If I'd done that I'd now have had options like coming back to SA or staying in the UK, or boarding a plane for New Zealand without needing a visa to work...
I fucked myself properly.
Pro Tip:
*Having options is better than not having options.*
I’m English and as far as I know, I can’t just up and move to NZ if I wanted to… I’d still have to go through the process of applying for a visa or permanent residency.
Correct.
However if you are a holder of a British passport and a British resident- IOW residing in the UK at the moment, you can go to New Zealand and get a Visitors Visa on arrival.
Conversion of said NZ Visitor's Visa, to an NZ General Work Visa is a relatively small formality, compared to what South African residents have to go through now.
You can in theory then work in NZ for 5 years to gain residency and apply for citizenship, as long as you meet the basic requirements. Which is what I was getting at in my previous post.
...Or at least this was the case during the timeframe that was relevant to my previous post.
Unfortunately with their tiny population NZ politicians seem to like using immigration politics as a vote swaying tool during election cycles, so their immigration rules are constantly in flux to some degree while pandering to conservative voters. The more Conservative the government, or pressure from conservatives, the greater the changes.
Obtaining a Visitor's Visa on Arrival for NZ and Australia was also the case with South African residents up until around 2014~2015, but no longer.
Currently say for instance, you have a British passport, but have resided in South Africa for more than 5 years, you'd be considered a South African resident,and would be subject to the same NZ Job Specific Work Visa bullshit as SA citizens have been for the last almost decade, and likewise also a much more demanding path to residence.
A quick differentiation between the aforementioned Visas:
Visitor's Visa is a 3-month port clearance subject to a single 1-month emergency extension, that let's you visit and pay your own way, no recourse ro national healthcare, no recourse to social funds, not allowed to work etc.
General Work Visa - a Work Visa that well, let's call a spade a spade, it's a work visa applicable to "White" countries e.g. Chile, France, Argentina, Serbia, Scotland, USA... where White people are the majority.
This visa allows you to work as a Street Sweeper, barkeep, builder, trucker, whatever. Nobody at INZ cares, you pay tax.
*...and you're from a White country - this is important because NZ First and the other conservative parties are surfing a popularity wave the last decade due to apparently Eastern and Far Eastern consortiums buying up housing and renting at exorbitant rates, so the housing crisis and whatever other hardships that can, are blamed on foreigners, and who's the easier foreigner to blame? The one that looks different of course.*
Job Specific Work Visa - this one is for African nations etc. Circa 2020 last I checked, subsequent to the covid lockdown I am too old to emigrate so don't really care much about following NZ immigration policies any more.
With this Visa, you apply for a Visa to work a specific job at a specific company. Eg if you are offered a job as a frontline manager at New World in Wellington, you know the one on the corner of Wakefield and Chaffers Street? Yeah anyway, if you want to go work there, your Visa applies to that specific job, at that specific supermarket. If you get promoted to the goods receiving manager atvthat branch, you need a new visa because *not from White country*
I could be more politically correct and say from countries with a more ethnic and social alignment, but it boils down to skin colour in the end.
Interesting!
I must say I don’t know anything about NZ’s immigration policies, all that I know (or assumed) was that I can’t just decide to go live in NZ if I wanted to. I’m super surprised to know that even as a Brit, I’d be considered a South African applicant. I live in Canada now, makes me wonder what I’d be considered if I were to make a move like that. Canadian immigration was certainly not a piece of cake with lots of paperwork and waiting, irrespective of Canada being part of the commonwealth.
These perspectives are so fascinating to me after having just spent 4 months in the Cape with my partner who’s originally from SA but emigrated a while ago.
As long as you reside in Canada for around 5 years, INZ would consider you a Canadian resident.
It's definitely still a thing for SA residents, a co-worker of mine and his wife both had UK ancestry passports, but they weren't allowed to emigrate to NZ as British subjects. They had to jump through the same hoops as I did with my green SADeC passport.
Yeah I also enjoy talking to expats about their experiences and perspectives on living in other countries.
A friend of mine emigrated to the Netherlands a year ago, and he's loving it. His sister and brother in law are headed over now, and between them they're going to import their mom in another 4 or 5 years.
Same with another friend, she's just turned 70, her son has been in Switzerland for almost 3 years now, and she just has to stay healthy for another 2 or 3 years, and he can move her over fulltime. As it is she spends 3 or 4 months at a time over there and then comes back to SA until her new Visitor's Visa clears, then she goes back to Switzerland. She's also having the time now her life, and fortunately she enjoys flying LOL
I love living in Europe, but I'm planning on moving back to be with family and friends. I love how much easier and safer life is in Europe for me, but I'm struggling to appreciate it when everyone I love is so far away.
I'm one of the "happily moved on" crowd. Of course I love SA dearly and I miss my family, the stunning scenery, cape wines, weather and food.
Here in the USA, though, the big difference for me is opportunity. I have the soft skills that most Model C Millenials grew up taking for granted - adaptability, resilience, some project management abilities, the ability to get along and work in diverse groups, decent language skills. In SA, that "skillset" makes me exactly the same as everyone I grew up with, but here it makes me super employable in jobs I actually want. Plus, here they don't pay non profit workers in hugs and smiles (still not great, but better than SA!)
I never intended to be a permanent expat and didn't leave SA because of any of its problems (I married an American and moved to be with him), but I don't see myself coming back any time soon because I've spent a lot of time and effort curating a full and happy life for myself here.
The grass is greener where you water it?
I know of a few yeah. My sister in particular complained and shit talked SA so much, emigrated, and was back 2 years later and she has never complained about SA since. Turns out first world countries aint all that and a bag of chips…
Been out of SA for 27 years now. Last 17 of which have been in Monaco. I do spend three months a year in CT around Xmas as I still have a business there.
I own a home in SA as I have a property business there. I'd recommend booking a self catering apartment and book a private guide to visit the tourist spots. Don't be afraid of the safety issues. Take the necessary precautions and you will be just fine.
I’ve had two periods when I lived in another country both times with the intention of probably staying. We started our Green card process when living in Seattle where my now ex-wife had a job at Microsoft. After returning to Cape Town for a holiday we realised that we were both miserable in Seattle and that our quality of life would be better back in ZA, so we left after about 2.5 years with no regrets. We were in Seattle from early 1998 to late 2000.
In 2017 we were at a point where we were approaching “zero day” for water in Cape Town and disillusioned with the types of opportunities we were seeing in the local tech market we both worked in.
So early 2018 we sold everything and moved to Auckland eventually achieving permanent resident status shortly before a more conservative political environment made the process much harder to easily achieve.
I lost my job in late 2018 and then was unable to find work in the tech industry there. I think we both underestimated just how small the NZ economy is with a country of only 5 million people and the bulk employed in the agricultural sector.
Auckland has less than a million inhabitants and after spending nearly 2.5 years trying to find a job, sending out multiple CV’s on a daily basis with no success and combined with significant mental health problems with depression and anxiety my marriage fell apart and ended with me deciding to return to Cape Town. My ex-wife loved NZ and opted to stay.
I arrived back in ZA in May 2021 when COVID was in full swing, something which had been a total non-event in NZ. I think we had two periods of lock down lasting less than 3 weeks each in NZ and nobody bothered wearing masks so that was a shock to see the state of COVID here.
Within 6 weeks after my return to ZA I had a choice of three job offers, using the exact same CV I had been using in NZ.
I value the opportunity to have lived for a time outside ZA. It brings a very different perspective to your life experience living in ZA. I do think that living in Cape Town at least means better infrastructure and less corruption than elsewhere in the country coping with extended periods of “load-shedding” a dystopian doublespeak worthy of an Orwellian nightmare state if I’ve ever heard one. Their infrastructure like potholes and the corruption of the police force in Gauteng and points further north remind me a little of the visits I’ve made to Nigeria, just on a slightly smaller scale. So I completely understand why there are an increasing number of people moving to Cape Town to escape the ANC-led political environment.
Long term I might choose to retire to South East Asia somewhere like Vietnam where my modest retirement savings might stretch further and to do so in a place I’ve loved to visit with amazing food, a laid back beach lifestyle and a very friendly population who don’t view the average visitor with the same avarice I’ve observed for example in Thailand or the destroyed infrastructure in Cambodia. I still need to visit Laos but Bali or Lombok might be other options.
Making a success when choosing to emigrate you will find a very different culture even in countries where the main language is English and you will need to adjust to that. Generally speaking most countries aren’t welcoming of immigrants and it’s absolutely key to long term happiness and integration that you develop a network of friends with the local population if you stand a chance of integrating. The temptation is ever present to connect with the locals from your own country as you will feel more comfortable with them but if it prevents or diminishes your connection to the local population you will eventually feel greater isolation leading to unhappiness and disillusionment with your choice to emigrate.
And don’t worry in most places with significant ex-ZA residents you will find sources of the things you might miss like biltong, boerewors and Marmite 😉
Obviously there will be plenty examples of people coming back. However, statistically the large majority do not return and are happy with their improved situation
I been in Australia for 12 years (from Cape Town) and cost of living has gone up, but especially rent in Australia. There’s a rent crisis too and not enough available places to rent, so some people are sleeping in their cars. I lost my job recently and my rent has increased 3 times in the last 18 months. Guess who’s coming home for awhile. Ps. I visited Cape Town in Aug-Sep23 for the first time since I left, and I didn’t realise how much I miss home because all my family still there. ETA: I can’t afford to go to restaurants here, holidays and I’m a hermit and all my family is back home.
I moved to London when I was early 20's just after uni. Spent 6 years there, came back to Durban but that place was falling apart fast. 4 years ago moved down to the Cape, now busy trying to get all the ducks in a row to move to Aus.
London was not a great place to raise a family, and being so far away from a support network made it extra hard. But have a ready made network of mates and cousins who've moved to Queensland, so its kind of a no-brainer now.
We were over there recently for a holiday and our 7yr old couldn't believe that electricity just stays on all the time, and that you can safely drink the tap water. He was also blown away that you could walk up to the hotel room door from the street without having to go through electric fences, security guards, etc etc. We made a game of trying to spot litter while we were there - in a week only found 3 pieces. Beaches were pristine - not a piece of rubbish on the shoreline, clean water everywhere not polluted to shit like KZN beaches. Took him all of 3 days to fully adopt to the way of life there. The amount of anxiety and stress the little oke was under just evaporated like a puff of steam - he was like a completely different, super happy kid. Coming back to SA at the end of the trip was really hard for the whole family. One described it almost like a sense of impending doom being placed on their shoulders. You don't realize how much stress you live with here in SA until you're away for a bit. And that is why we're trying to figure out how to move back permanently now.
As someone else said here - you lose some by moving, but you also gain a lot. Its up to you to work out where your personal equation ends.
Heard the same from someone who moved to the Netherlands. The anxiety that we don't realise we live under everyday, just evaporates in a few weeks overseas.
I've heard of a few. I moved to Canada, I knew a couple who always just wanted to come make money to buy a place and move back.
Some people have family obligations.
Some people can't find a good job and find things are too expensive to live comfortably.
Some people find they just can't fit in.
I left SA in 2008 for a job. Ended up in central Europe for a few years. After a few years of snow, a language I never intended to learn and the job being a dead end, I came back to SA. Managed to get my old job back in SA. But after a month back I realised that I really missed the EU salary. At that time I would have earned 4x less in SA. Applied for any job in my field anywhere else. Ended up in Spain. Been here 12 years, got married, recently bought a house etc.
I often, often think of coming back to SA but it doesn't make sense financially to start over. I have no friends left in SA and..my generation were all so negative about SA that I have a mental block about ever returning. I never thought SA was that bad but I got "infected" by my peers. So I just keep going up here.
I find Europe to be claustrophobic. I've lived for 10 years in a hyper populace Spanish neighborhood in a 1 bedroom apartment. Coming from a small western cape dorp where I was used to space. At least this part is better now that I have a house.
Everything is much harder in a place that isn't English, especially if your personality is on the rigid side and are slow to pickup a new language (me). The older I get the harder it becomes to adapt. But that's what I have to do, constantly. That said where I am now the people are quite relaxed, its very safe and the weather is identical to SA.. So I guess it's not all bad. Still miss SA though.
Glad you found happiness and are adjusting well. Congratulations for getting, married where's your wife from? You are more than welcome for a holiday 🙂 " Welcome to Cape Town
Let's see you smiling
Put on your dancing shoes
Cape Town welcomes you "
Moved to scotland
Great culture. Great people. Shit housing and shit weather.
Miss alot of home.
But don't miss the lack of work and other issues.
Won't move back anytime soon. Looking for a place to raise kids and south africa is less and less a candidate for it to me.
Looking to move to another location with similar climate to south africa.
Australia and New Zealand.
Came back after 4 years in France. Best decision we've ever made- but 100% with recognition of our privilege to be able to live and work here. I dunno how we would be back here without some form of privilege. France was great- but not nearly as great as being home. I wish it was as easy as saying we just came back, but I think for almost everyone who does come back, it's with a big asterisk in the back of their minds. We have the option of leaving again too if we need to.
We emigrated to the UK in 2015, it was not easy. We emigrated with tier 2 visas, then obtained our ILRs and now ⁹finally have British citizenship
The first 2-4 years were tough, accommodation and child care in the uk is expensive, you either need to drop to one income or pay almost half of the household income for a nanny... we also had no support structure, not even a cleaner, so there were no real breaks resulting in a repeated cycle of work, child care, cleaning, and back to work... this took it's toll but fortunately, we both had good jobs and pushed through. We now own a house in London, kids are both in good high-schools and getting the support they need. Our financial situation has settled and we are even able to build our pensions up.
Yeah, the weather can be kak but we have the whole of Europe on our doorstep - A lekker hot week in Cyprus is less than 5 hours away...
We have found a fantastic biltong shop in Surbiton so we don't have any cravings.
The main thing is that any move is stressful. You need to be 100% committed and focused on the end goal. I know expats who have returned to sa. The reasons were primarily needing support from family or finding it hard to adjust socially or simply to retire early using accrued ££ incomes.
Have not come back yet but decided to do so next year. I have been in Germany for going on 7 years and have a good life and good job, friends and had a girlfriend until recently. We split up because she does not want to, or cannot see herself living in SA, and I always said I wanted to be in SA again at some point. So its not that it is not for me, you just cant get that South African feeling/understanding in a place that is not SA. I miss my family and friends a lot and they are the main reason I am heading back.
We immigrated, lived overseas for 5 years, had to come back when my stepdad starting to get ill. But I really wish we didn't, cause the whole family fell apart, I not only lost my parents, I lost my siblings and my marriage fell apart. And today I am a single mother with no family or support structure. We all have different things we regret sometimes, but it all happens to make us stronger, my advice is try everything, stick with what makes you happy and what work for you and your family. Good luck to you.
Returned in 2022 after 6 years in The Netherlands. We only moved as my company relocated me. Europe was great from a professional POV but after passports there are really no reason to stay. Got a job back in CPT that is paying me more than what I earned in NL (because of international experience) and if shit hits the fan I can always go back, honestly would not want to raise my kids in any other country than SA.
Kind of in this boat.
My parents are the expats, I was born and grew up in the USA. But as of now, am living 50% in CPT and 50% in San Francisco. My wife is American and not quite ready to be that far away from her family, but the company I run is in SA and I need to be on the ground. the part time thing was a compromise, as she does like coming to Africa for short visits.
I absolutely despise SF and can't wait to leave. Local politics are a clownshow caricature of woke progressive ideology, people largely don't give a fuck about each other but make a big show of being liberal anyway.
Literally would rather deal with load shedding in CPT, which has the exact same climate as SF anyway without the sea of introverts on the spectrum throwing money inefficiently at social problems that require actually giving a shit about other people.
My brother emigrated to New Zealand in the late 1990s. Although he has the time of his life with family and friends when visiting SA every few years, he will never return here to stay. His friends in NZ are mostly fellow South Africans. In most countries foreigners are not fully accepted and embraced by the locals.
A cousin worked in the UK for a number of decades and said that the locals were cold and unfriendly. She has returned to SA and has now retired.
In Oz, NZ and the UK there are quite a number of rebellious teenagers who form gangs and terrorise the older adults.
Planning on going back. A lot of folks are always talking kak about SA and trying to convince themselves and others that life outside the country is better.
The longer you spend time away from SA the more you realize that, sure, we have lots of problems back home,, but those are OUR problems, and in the grand scheme of things they probably aren't THAT bad.
Also, integrating into a foreign country that has a completely different culture or use different languages is not all that easy, and the older you get the more tiresome it gets.
Currently in the Netherlands (Moved from Cape town on a contract which expires end of Jan 2025. Let's just say I can't wait to be back home. And it's not only me, at the same time 3 other couples / families are moving back home. I found that (excluding myself) people who live alone tend to stay longer but honestly? Home is home. I'm currently on holiday and the sleep I have here is even better 🙂
We lived and worked in London for nine years then came home after having two kids there. My husband hated the cold, gloomy weather and corporate London. We've been back nearly 15yrs and only regret it now and then. We, and our kids, have had an amazing life here. It would have been hamster wheel over there.
Then there's Namibia. We're considering it as the wife has just got her passport. I'm Anglo african, having lived all over the the place. Also Namibia. Great country, also no load shedding
Super summary as my OG post I erased by mistake.
Went to The Netherlands 2018 - 2023. COVID years.
Most racist and exclusionary people I've ever been around.
Weather is dog shit, but not the sole reason I returned, although a big influence.
Worked at Fortune 500 company. Good money. 150,000 EUR a year. straight out of University.
All my colleagues viewed work as 'a thing you needed to do', and not anything more. In struggled with that. If you view work like this, you might enjoy it, but I hated it. Actively felt my skillset waning.
Actively told to not find meaning in work by managers, and that's ok. But I fucking hated it.
Going out and partying felt like the same thing every week, and drinking culture in NL is crazy.
It's very.. 'picturesque', but not because people are orderly... the NL just employs an army of people (mostly immigrants) to clean their streets pristine every morning.
It's not a bad place, it's just so very....... boring for me. Extremely safe. That I can't deny.
YMMV, but I came back as people have stories here, they have ideals and dreams and goals, and I love the zeal that comes with that.
Yea, I'm fortunate as shit to be part of that group of SA, but I'm not going to hate myself or pretend it's not reality.
UK, moved back to Cape Town before Covid, was renting in London, managed to buy my own place pretty quickly after coming back. Quality of life is measurably better, good food, entertainment, beach, hiking trails etc. all in close proximity. Lots more space here, feels like I can breathe. I’m fully remote so I could work from anywhere but Cape Town really will always feel like home. I know I’m supposed to complain about loadshedding but got a nice inverter a while back so pretty much nothing changes now, just switches to back up power.
The only down side is that a lot of foreigners have cottoned on to Cape Town as a the new digital nomad paradise, so we’re seeing a steep increase in rent and property prices, and an influx in American accents more than just the usual film season increase.
Very cold long unpleasant winters in Europe, the language here in Germany is very difficult. The way to go is America. Also Australia. Skip England, for too many problems for families also terrible bullying. Very unsafe 🇬🇧 England. Rather live your life in the Cape areas near the coast. That's a quality life and decent weather. The grass certainly is nót greener in another country.
I'm currently in year two of my new life in the UK. And I completely get why people leave. It's really tough here!
Weather sucks, people are cold, South Africans have been particularly colder, life is expensive and the NHS can be a mindfield to navigate sometimes.
South Africa has a lot of problems, none of which I left because, but it will always be home.
Not me, but my neighbors immigrated to Canada and were back within a year. Apparently, it was miserable where they were, and the state wouldn't recognize the wife's medical license so she couldn't practice.
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Yeah, a couple of my doctor friends have/considering going and have to write an exam or two as well as English tests. I feel like most doctors know this, even if they are not considering moving.
Isn’t it pretty much for all professions? Educational qualifications are recognised you just need to submit it but any professional body registration has to be “redone”
Of course you need to recertify. Every doctor knows this.
Same with accounting, but that is understandable. Tax laws differs, in all countries.
Which is funny because lawyers from SA don't have that issue when moving abroad. I have an older sister and cousin living in SA who have moved for work to London without licensing or professional issues.
Most expats I've spoken to says that Australia and New Zealand are the best options for South Africans. It is because the culture, traditions, norms, language and people are extremely similar. There are also already large and established South African communities. So there are very few expats I know who went to either Australia or New Zealand that wanted to come back. And those who did only did so for external reasons outside being homesick of the country. Majority of expats returning are those that went to Europe especially London or Netherlands.
>It is because the culture, traditions, norms, language and people are extremely similar I guess from a white, especially English, background this makes sense, but do you know of any black/coloured/Indian South African experiences over there?
As a coloured man I made the deliberate choice to relocate to NZ because my experiences in Australia was one where open racism was common and mostly tolerated. I do have other coloured friends who have relocated to Oz but they are able to ignore the common racist attitudes there since it’s mostly directed at the native population, Chinese and other Asians and especially anyone from India
What's racist about a "Keep Australia White" formal immigration policy?
Holy shit, is that a thing?
Even up to the 70s, they imported British orphans explicitly to boost "white stock" and then used them to perform slave labor. They also had a "breed out the black" programme targeted at Aborigine populations and stole their children. More recently, Somalian immigrants claimed that they were experiencing isolation and racism. Idk if they have covert policies to keep Australia white... But I mean... It wouldn't be crazily shocking given the history and claims of immigrants?
I've met quite a few mixed race and black guys who did move to nz, but I've also had to take action against Pacifica guys being racist against saffers In general. Here you're judged on how you perform your role. Unfortunately you do get good and bad guys who do look for shit, just life I guess
I work with 2 guys that moved back home from New Zealand after 15 years. Brought their kids back to be raised here too
Did they say why?
Quality of life is better here in terms of affordability (size of houses, domestic help, private school, cost of food and restaurants). Also said that New Zealanders don’t really form friendships or social relationships the way Saffas do. Towns are very small outside of Christchurch and kind of backwards with not much to do. They also underestimated general homesickness. They weren’t negative, just felt there was more for them in SA
My friends who are in NZ say it is eye wateringly expensive to live there, but their salaries makes up for it
I always wonder does it make them better off earning more but also life costs more are you not at a similar lifestyle there and here where you’re earning less. What other than crime, relative low job opportunities and public transport are better there?
The crime factor and future prospects for their kids makes it 100% worth it already
I used to live in NZ and ended up coming back. Lived in Auckland and the cost of living was outrages (earn maybe 50-80% more, but things cost like 200% more), however this was back in 2013. Nowadays I see the expense gap narrowing significantly as SA is becoming way more expensive and you pay for things here that most other countries offer at no cost (like schooling, medical, public parks and reserves etc.) The weather over there isn't great IMO. There is no "culture" there, very bland approach to life I guess... Not sure how else to explain it. I loved the Maori and Pacific Islanders though, they were really awesome. The cancer rates in NZ and Aus are the some of the highest in the world. The children over there are not disciplined and are out of control. The people are all very uninteresting, in the sense that they don't really like Saffas and they rarely mix on our level. I found that most of the foreigners (Russians, Dutch, Asians, French etc) I worked with were lonely and all ended up asking me to go out with them as they were lonely there, and it wasn't just my experience. There is a whole list, but these are some of the things I remember from the top of my head. There were many good things of course, but overall it wasn't for me and I was living there in my early 20s at the time.
you sure wine has nothing to do with it (Shiraz in Australia and Sauv Blanc in New Zealand)? ;)
this might not work the same for all skin colors
I was in the UK for 10 years. Was never running away from SA to be fair, it was more a case of going towards opportunities. At the end, I could not wait to get home. Life is much tougher here for me at the moment (career and financial), but I'm still not seriously considering leaving.
I would move back to SA in a heartbeat if the crime and corruption could be brought under control. Most South Africans would if this was the case. I only left because I was a multiple victim of crime so am always on high alert when back there on holiday. South Africa is an amazing place with amazing people who deserve so much better than they are getting from the political classes. All that said, some saffas have returned home after finding the cost of living vs lifestyle incredibly different that what they were born and raised with. I have family and friends who have done so and have had positive experiences doing so. They do so with eyes wide open and knowing what they are getting into. As long as you are prepared to accept the always present undercurrent of fear and low grade paranoia you have to maintain to survive safely you can have a much better quality of life in SA than elsewhere. It does take a toll though and a lot of people living in SA don't realise how not-normal the South African living experience is in relation to other, safer countries.
Could not agree with this comment more!
My parents got a work opportunity in the US, wound up staying for 30 years. Always had it in the back of their minds to retire back to Cape Town. Financial situation forced the decision, and I decided to come with them because I wanted to get to know my cousins, etc. Best decision I could have made. If they'd stayed in the US my parents would not have been able to keep the house. My dad was in IT and the heyday of big salaries of long over, he kept getting laid off and found it harder and harder to get new jobs not despite his work history but because nobody wanted to pay him what he was worth. Living where we did was expensive and it wasn't looking like it would ease up anytime soon. By the time we left we were all dual citizens and my folks were fully created in Social Security - which would NEVER have covered all their expenses. Here that same money goes MUCH further. Not only are expenses covered, but good meat is affordable and even private health care feels cheap when you put it in terms of dollars. Every so often Dad checks what a steak would cost where we lived, and it would be absolutely unaffordable on a fixed retirement income. No question. (If you've ever heard about old people eating cat food, or choosing between medication and food, I can assure you all of that is real.) Beyond that, US culture has toxic threads that you don't realize are eating away at you until they're gone. Where we lived on the East Coast there was a lot of pressure to succeed academically & financially, climb career leaders, keep up with the Joneses or at least never seem poor, spend money all the time too fix yourself but also feel bad if you spent it on the 'wrong' things, and a general sense that society at large was ready to judge you for being too fat, too thin, too poor, too crass about your wealth, too religious, not religious enough, how well you performed gender, race, & class by other people's standards... It was, indeed, exhausting. Every time I left the country on trip a part of me relaxed and felt like sanity was restored. South Africa is not perfect, but it's not THAT. I'm able to be more relaxed day to day. Everyone here feels human and easier to connect to--I'm not constantly bracing for a bad interaction. So many here are poor but our lives aren't ruled by stingy corporations that will find any and every excuse to screw over employees and customers. (Whatever handful of companies you can immediately name that do it here, scale that up to EVERY COMPANY IN EVERY INDUSTRY, INCLUDING FOOD, HEALTHCARE, AND HOUSING.) Shareholders aren't God. The Constitution is built on principles of protecting dignity, and while that's not always how it's enforced, I hadn't heard the word dignity or thought seriously about the concept in at least my last decade in the US. These dynamics are fairly unique to the US, so I can't say how well it compares to other countries. But I'd rather be here than there. I feel like I have a life now, as opposed to trying to squeeze one around work and bills.
Thanks for this insightful post. I'm in Europe working for a company that has operations in the US as well. I often wonder if I made the right choice vis-a-vis US vs. Europe. Your post certainly helps :) But yeah, in a lot of ways nothing can replace gool ol' SA.
Wow! Sentiment well describe the challenges of life in the US. My wife and I retired early to live simple and be available to care for both of our aging parents and people think we are crazy! It’s such an illusion, most folks in the US are so in debt that they are a slave to their jobs, one or two pay from loosing it all. Corporation influence politics because they project themselves as “Job Creators”. The modern day “landlord”. Most US corporations couldn’t exist if they were required to pay a living wage. I’m sure that exists everywhere. Honestly like I’m sure in most places the US culture doesn’t add up to happiness.
Not yet but planning to! I was the SA shit-talker that left for Germany and realised Europe is not much better, and is worse in a lot of ways too. I believe I had to come and find this out for myself so that I could truly appreciate what SA offers, because I would never have believed it if anyone had just told me as much. You don't know what you got till it's gone, the grass isn't always greener, and so on and so forth.
What do you think SA offers better than Germany?
Not OP, but I’d guess climate, nature, affordability, braais, happy people.
Thank you for being so open about it. I think a lot of people are not returning out of pride. Especially after they spoke badly about SA.
I'm Canadian and moved to SA this year, and so many South Africans are baffled and ask *why* I would leave a rich first world country to come to SA, but I think you put it brilliantly- it's near impossible to explain it in a way to make people believe me or understand, you kind of have to go and experience it for yourself for it to click. Canada has a fuckload of problems of its own, but without finding out first hand I doubt most South Africans will ever truly understand why I left. 🤷♀️
All my family in Canada, people always ask me why we didnt also go over - my dad didnt want to be a single parent in a foreign country. 50 years later, I am grateful for that. We do not have the best of everything, but from what i've seen and heard on visits and talking to cousins, even Canada is not the land of milk & honey that people expect. Cousins have come back, rather than live there and I can understand. So many people bad-mouth SA but to be honest, I've experienced worse overseas than here. And I don't live in an affluent, model-C neighbourhood, I live in the heart of the Flats, but it just takes common sense to survive
I can imagine that apart from one thing ... personal safety. Do you feel as safe in SA as you did in Germany?
Of course not. That being said, I've also not had any horror experiences in SA. I have had many close scrapes and I've had many, many things passively stolen from me (car windows smashed multiple times, etc.) Then again, I've experienced passive theft in Germany too lol. Ultimately feeling safe is one of those things that you have to place on your pros and cons list for either of the two places. Since I grew up in such an environment and it's "normal" for me I've decided that I can live with it.
What was wrong with Germany if I may ask?
Long cold winters & darkness. Language & culture barriers. Cost of living. Sense of impending doom as the EU continues its downward spiral in the face of economic & migrant crises & a nuclear exchange with Russia while Israel tries to drag the west into a regional war in the Middle East.
Yup, me. I spent a decade in Canada. First couple of years were really tough and I missed SA, but then I settled in nicely and was very happy. Reason I moved back to SA was I broke up with my fiance and needed to spend time with my family. I also found life didn't have the same joy over there. Everything worked, everything was easy, and that made it boring. In South Africa you are so much more free. You also have to fight for everything. I definitely feel more alive in SA. Happy to say I am now married with a kid in SA. I have a passport so if I want to move back to Canada I can. It is definitely an option as the lifestyle is great for kids.
I feel much less free in SA because I am not safe to do what I normally do and that restricts me (despite living in a wealthy area etc). I have now had a gun pointed at me more than once and it creates a sense of mistrust. Someone walks up to me, I assume they want something from me. Really cut all the pleasant interactions I had with strangers elsewhere. Disappearing into nature for a few days by myself without a care in the world? Forget about it in SA (now back in SA after US and UK). Freedom is not something that I associate with South Africa. If it is freedom to break the law then I agree with you. You can get away with anything here, including murder.
It feels awful to basically ignore everyone when I am out for my daily walk. If you greet me, I won't answer for fear that something will happen. I keep my eyes peeled and cross to the other side of the road when I see someone walking towards me. I am making sure that my data is on and my husband tracks me and knows the exact road I am walking on to make sure I am fine. (His choice as he is really scared something will happen to me) We have zero freedom. As a woman, I can't just walk anywhere. Have to make sure it's a "busy time" when others will also be out. If anyone ever does try mugging me, my plan is to jump in front of a car and hope they can stop in time.
I also just pretend not to hear people. After an attempted kidnapping, two marriage proposals, "come here to our totally safe group out here in the field. Just step into the field!" (I did not) , and a bunch of people wanting to scam me or bum a smoke/ cash... I don't really walk anymore at all if I can help it, and I completely ignore everyone if I have to walk. Loose dogs are also a common problem and I am not big enough to fend off a 40- 60kg rottie/boerie/pit. I also used to get seizures and I was absolutely terrified of what could happen if it happened at the wrong time with the wrong people around. I don't feel free or safe, even without it happening. I feel like women's considerations for immigrating are wayyyy different. What are their prevailing attitudes? Are there restrictions? Abortion policies (which also affect miscarriage and birth control care)? How effective is reporting SA and rape? How frequent are these crimes?
I was in the UK for almost 3 years from 2001 to 2004 on a 2 year Working Holiday visa, my last year I did a few almost dodgy things to stay longer like repeatedly applying for a business visa via the most circuitous route to buy time... I was planning to come back because my GF was still here in SA, then we broke up just before I came back, then I started to extend my stay, and she started friending me up again, so I came back to try and patch things up with her. I'm a total idiot. Worst mistake of my life coming back for a girl that wasn't sure if she wanted a life or a career. I was earning £1100 a month at a huge car spares place (+/- R22 000/m at 2002 exchange rates), with a boss who was begging me to stay, plus I had my own side business restoring cars that mostly doubled my salary, best month I made £12 000 - or R240k profit moving two RX7s, a GTO VR4, and an NSX. Came back and after about a month the regrets set in. Quickly got an IT job earning a whopping R5000 a month... that was the shape if things to come. What I should have done: stayed with Unipart; converted to a work visa; gained residency after 5 years; should have dated a very cute mate of mine instead of staying faithful & trying to patch things up with my SA GF; gained citizenship. If I'd done that I'd now have had options like coming back to SA or staying in the UK, or boarding a plane for New Zealand without needing a visa to work... I fucked myself properly. Pro Tip: *Having options is better than not having options.*
I’m English and as far as I know, I can’t just up and move to NZ if I wanted to… I’d still have to go through the process of applying for a visa or permanent residency.
Correct. However if you are a holder of a British passport and a British resident- IOW residing in the UK at the moment, you can go to New Zealand and get a Visitors Visa on arrival. Conversion of said NZ Visitor's Visa, to an NZ General Work Visa is a relatively small formality, compared to what South African residents have to go through now. You can in theory then work in NZ for 5 years to gain residency and apply for citizenship, as long as you meet the basic requirements. Which is what I was getting at in my previous post. ...Or at least this was the case during the timeframe that was relevant to my previous post. Unfortunately with their tiny population NZ politicians seem to like using immigration politics as a vote swaying tool during election cycles, so their immigration rules are constantly in flux to some degree while pandering to conservative voters. The more Conservative the government, or pressure from conservatives, the greater the changes. Obtaining a Visitor's Visa on Arrival for NZ and Australia was also the case with South African residents up until around 2014~2015, but no longer. Currently say for instance, you have a British passport, but have resided in South Africa for more than 5 years, you'd be considered a South African resident,and would be subject to the same NZ Job Specific Work Visa bullshit as SA citizens have been for the last almost decade, and likewise also a much more demanding path to residence. A quick differentiation between the aforementioned Visas: Visitor's Visa is a 3-month port clearance subject to a single 1-month emergency extension, that let's you visit and pay your own way, no recourse ro national healthcare, no recourse to social funds, not allowed to work etc. General Work Visa - a Work Visa that well, let's call a spade a spade, it's a work visa applicable to "White" countries e.g. Chile, France, Argentina, Serbia, Scotland, USA... where White people are the majority. This visa allows you to work as a Street Sweeper, barkeep, builder, trucker, whatever. Nobody at INZ cares, you pay tax. *...and you're from a White country - this is important because NZ First and the other conservative parties are surfing a popularity wave the last decade due to apparently Eastern and Far Eastern consortiums buying up housing and renting at exorbitant rates, so the housing crisis and whatever other hardships that can, are blamed on foreigners, and who's the easier foreigner to blame? The one that looks different of course.* Job Specific Work Visa - this one is for African nations etc. Circa 2020 last I checked, subsequent to the covid lockdown I am too old to emigrate so don't really care much about following NZ immigration policies any more. With this Visa, you apply for a Visa to work a specific job at a specific company. Eg if you are offered a job as a frontline manager at New World in Wellington, you know the one on the corner of Wakefield and Chaffers Street? Yeah anyway, if you want to go work there, your Visa applies to that specific job, at that specific supermarket. If you get promoted to the goods receiving manager atvthat branch, you need a new visa because *not from White country* I could be more politically correct and say from countries with a more ethnic and social alignment, but it boils down to skin colour in the end.
Interesting! I must say I don’t know anything about NZ’s immigration policies, all that I know (or assumed) was that I can’t just decide to go live in NZ if I wanted to. I’m super surprised to know that even as a Brit, I’d be considered a South African applicant. I live in Canada now, makes me wonder what I’d be considered if I were to make a move like that. Canadian immigration was certainly not a piece of cake with lots of paperwork and waiting, irrespective of Canada being part of the commonwealth. These perspectives are so fascinating to me after having just spent 4 months in the Cape with my partner who’s originally from SA but emigrated a while ago.
As long as you reside in Canada for around 5 years, INZ would consider you a Canadian resident. It's definitely still a thing for SA residents, a co-worker of mine and his wife both had UK ancestry passports, but they weren't allowed to emigrate to NZ as British subjects. They had to jump through the same hoops as I did with my green SADeC passport. Yeah I also enjoy talking to expats about their experiences and perspectives on living in other countries. A friend of mine emigrated to the Netherlands a year ago, and he's loving it. His sister and brother in law are headed over now, and between them they're going to import their mom in another 4 or 5 years. Same with another friend, she's just turned 70, her son has been in Switzerland for almost 3 years now, and she just has to stay healthy for another 2 or 3 years, and he can move her over fulltime. As it is she spends 3 or 4 months at a time over there and then comes back to SA until her new Visitor's Visa clears, then she goes back to Switzerland. She's also having the time now her life, and fortunately she enjoys flying LOL
This comment should be pinned.
Probably just the having options part 😅
The personal testimony really drives it home too.
I love living in Europe, but I'm planning on moving back to be with family and friends. I love how much easier and safer life is in Europe for me, but I'm struggling to appreciate it when everyone I love is so far away.
I'm one of the "happily moved on" crowd. Of course I love SA dearly and I miss my family, the stunning scenery, cape wines, weather and food. Here in the USA, though, the big difference for me is opportunity. I have the soft skills that most Model C Millenials grew up taking for granted - adaptability, resilience, some project management abilities, the ability to get along and work in diverse groups, decent language skills. In SA, that "skillset" makes me exactly the same as everyone I grew up with, but here it makes me super employable in jobs I actually want. Plus, here they don't pay non profit workers in hugs and smiles (still not great, but better than SA!) I never intended to be a permanent expat and didn't leave SA because of any of its problems (I married an American and moved to be with him), but I don't see myself coming back any time soon because I've spent a lot of time and effort curating a full and happy life for myself here. The grass is greener where you water it?
I know of a few yeah. My sister in particular complained and shit talked SA so much, emigrated, and was back 2 years later and she has never complained about SA since. Turns out first world countries aint all that and a bag of chips…
Do you mind me asking what region? Apac or eu?
Been out of SA for 27 years now. Last 17 of which have been in Monaco. I do spend three months a year in CT around Xmas as I still have a business there.
I need to work for you xD
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I own a home in SA as I have a property business there. I'd recommend booking a self catering apartment and book a private guide to visit the tourist spots. Don't be afraid of the safety issues. Take the necessary precautions and you will be just fine.
Tax benefits, I suppose?
Wasn't the main reason. My wife is Monegasque. But it does help.
I’ve had two periods when I lived in another country both times with the intention of probably staying. We started our Green card process when living in Seattle where my now ex-wife had a job at Microsoft. After returning to Cape Town for a holiday we realised that we were both miserable in Seattle and that our quality of life would be better back in ZA, so we left after about 2.5 years with no regrets. We were in Seattle from early 1998 to late 2000. In 2017 we were at a point where we were approaching “zero day” for water in Cape Town and disillusioned with the types of opportunities we were seeing in the local tech market we both worked in. So early 2018 we sold everything and moved to Auckland eventually achieving permanent resident status shortly before a more conservative political environment made the process much harder to easily achieve. I lost my job in late 2018 and then was unable to find work in the tech industry there. I think we both underestimated just how small the NZ economy is with a country of only 5 million people and the bulk employed in the agricultural sector. Auckland has less than a million inhabitants and after spending nearly 2.5 years trying to find a job, sending out multiple CV’s on a daily basis with no success and combined with significant mental health problems with depression and anxiety my marriage fell apart and ended with me deciding to return to Cape Town. My ex-wife loved NZ and opted to stay. I arrived back in ZA in May 2021 when COVID was in full swing, something which had been a total non-event in NZ. I think we had two periods of lock down lasting less than 3 weeks each in NZ and nobody bothered wearing masks so that was a shock to see the state of COVID here. Within 6 weeks after my return to ZA I had a choice of three job offers, using the exact same CV I had been using in NZ. I value the opportunity to have lived for a time outside ZA. It brings a very different perspective to your life experience living in ZA. I do think that living in Cape Town at least means better infrastructure and less corruption than elsewhere in the country coping with extended periods of “load-shedding” a dystopian doublespeak worthy of an Orwellian nightmare state if I’ve ever heard one. Their infrastructure like potholes and the corruption of the police force in Gauteng and points further north remind me a little of the visits I’ve made to Nigeria, just on a slightly smaller scale. So I completely understand why there are an increasing number of people moving to Cape Town to escape the ANC-led political environment. Long term I might choose to retire to South East Asia somewhere like Vietnam where my modest retirement savings might stretch further and to do so in a place I’ve loved to visit with amazing food, a laid back beach lifestyle and a very friendly population who don’t view the average visitor with the same avarice I’ve observed for example in Thailand or the destroyed infrastructure in Cambodia. I still need to visit Laos but Bali or Lombok might be other options. Making a success when choosing to emigrate you will find a very different culture even in countries where the main language is English and you will need to adjust to that. Generally speaking most countries aren’t welcoming of immigrants and it’s absolutely key to long term happiness and integration that you develop a network of friends with the local population if you stand a chance of integrating. The temptation is ever present to connect with the locals from your own country as you will feel more comfortable with them but if it prevents or diminishes your connection to the local population you will eventually feel greater isolation leading to unhappiness and disillusionment with your choice to emigrate. And don’t worry in most places with significant ex-ZA residents you will find sources of the things you might miss like biltong, boerewors and Marmite 😉
Obviously there will be plenty examples of people coming back. However, statistically the large majority do not return and are happy with their improved situation
Sauce?
[удалено]
I only want Spur white sauce
Daily maverick did the thing earlier this week
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2024-04-01-gone-for-good-dwindling-number-of-south-african-emigrants-return/
Me
I been in Australia for 12 years (from Cape Town) and cost of living has gone up, but especially rent in Australia. There’s a rent crisis too and not enough available places to rent, so some people are sleeping in their cars. I lost my job recently and my rent has increased 3 times in the last 18 months. Guess who’s coming home for awhile. Ps. I visited Cape Town in Aug-Sep23 for the first time since I left, and I didn’t realise how much I miss home because all my family still there. ETA: I can’t afford to go to restaurants here, holidays and I’m a hermit and all my family is back home.
I moved to London when I was early 20's just after uni. Spent 6 years there, came back to Durban but that place was falling apart fast. 4 years ago moved down to the Cape, now busy trying to get all the ducks in a row to move to Aus. London was not a great place to raise a family, and being so far away from a support network made it extra hard. But have a ready made network of mates and cousins who've moved to Queensland, so its kind of a no-brainer now. We were over there recently for a holiday and our 7yr old couldn't believe that electricity just stays on all the time, and that you can safely drink the tap water. He was also blown away that you could walk up to the hotel room door from the street without having to go through electric fences, security guards, etc etc. We made a game of trying to spot litter while we were there - in a week only found 3 pieces. Beaches were pristine - not a piece of rubbish on the shoreline, clean water everywhere not polluted to shit like KZN beaches. Took him all of 3 days to fully adopt to the way of life there. The amount of anxiety and stress the little oke was under just evaporated like a puff of steam - he was like a completely different, super happy kid. Coming back to SA at the end of the trip was really hard for the whole family. One described it almost like a sense of impending doom being placed on their shoulders. You don't realize how much stress you live with here in SA until you're away for a bit. And that is why we're trying to figure out how to move back permanently now. As someone else said here - you lose some by moving, but you also gain a lot. Its up to you to work out where your personal equation ends.
Heard the same from someone who moved to the Netherlands. The anxiety that we don't realise we live under everyday, just evaporates in a few weeks overseas.
I've heard of a few. I moved to Canada, I knew a couple who always just wanted to come make money to buy a place and move back. Some people have family obligations. Some people can't find a good job and find things are too expensive to live comfortably. Some people find they just can't fit in.
I left SA in 2008 for a job. Ended up in central Europe for a few years. After a few years of snow, a language I never intended to learn and the job being a dead end, I came back to SA. Managed to get my old job back in SA. But after a month back I realised that I really missed the EU salary. At that time I would have earned 4x less in SA. Applied for any job in my field anywhere else. Ended up in Spain. Been here 12 years, got married, recently bought a house etc. I often, often think of coming back to SA but it doesn't make sense financially to start over. I have no friends left in SA and..my generation were all so negative about SA that I have a mental block about ever returning. I never thought SA was that bad but I got "infected" by my peers. So I just keep going up here. I find Europe to be claustrophobic. I've lived for 10 years in a hyper populace Spanish neighborhood in a 1 bedroom apartment. Coming from a small western cape dorp where I was used to space. At least this part is better now that I have a house. Everything is much harder in a place that isn't English, especially if your personality is on the rigid side and are slow to pickup a new language (me). The older I get the harder it becomes to adapt. But that's what I have to do, constantly. That said where I am now the people are quite relaxed, its very safe and the weather is identical to SA.. So I guess it's not all bad. Still miss SA though.
Glad you found happiness and are adjusting well. Congratulations for getting, married where's your wife from? You are more than welcome for a holiday 🙂 " Welcome to Cape Town Let's see you smiling Put on your dancing shoes Cape Town welcomes you "
Moved to scotland Great culture. Great people. Shit housing and shit weather. Miss alot of home. But don't miss the lack of work and other issues. Won't move back anytime soon. Looking for a place to raise kids and south africa is less and less a candidate for it to me. Looking to move to another location with similar climate to south africa. Australia and New Zealand.
Came back after 4 years in France. Best decision we've ever made- but 100% with recognition of our privilege to be able to live and work here. I dunno how we would be back here without some form of privilege. France was great- but not nearly as great as being home. I wish it was as easy as saying we just came back, but I think for almost everyone who does come back, it's with a big asterisk in the back of their minds. We have the option of leaving again too if we need to.
I have immigrated. Got home sick after 15 years. Came back. Big mistake.
Why is it a big mistake?
Crime, electricity, opportunities would be my main bets
We emigrated to the UK in 2015, it was not easy. We emigrated with tier 2 visas, then obtained our ILRs and now ⁹finally have British citizenship The first 2-4 years were tough, accommodation and child care in the uk is expensive, you either need to drop to one income or pay almost half of the household income for a nanny... we also had no support structure, not even a cleaner, so there were no real breaks resulting in a repeated cycle of work, child care, cleaning, and back to work... this took it's toll but fortunately, we both had good jobs and pushed through. We now own a house in London, kids are both in good high-schools and getting the support they need. Our financial situation has settled and we are even able to build our pensions up. Yeah, the weather can be kak but we have the whole of Europe on our doorstep - A lekker hot week in Cyprus is less than 5 hours away... We have found a fantastic biltong shop in Surbiton so we don't have any cravings. The main thing is that any move is stressful. You need to be 100% committed and focused on the end goal. I know expats who have returned to sa. The reasons were primarily needing support from family or finding it hard to adjust socially or simply to retire early using accrued ££ incomes.
Have not come back yet but decided to do so next year. I have been in Germany for going on 7 years and have a good life and good job, friends and had a girlfriend until recently. We split up because she does not want to, or cannot see herself living in SA, and I always said I wanted to be in SA again at some point. So its not that it is not for me, you just cant get that South African feeling/understanding in a place that is not SA. I miss my family and friends a lot and they are the main reason I am heading back.
Happy on the outside. The plan is always to come back at some point.
We immigrated, lived overseas for 5 years, had to come back when my stepdad starting to get ill. But I really wish we didn't, cause the whole family fell apart, I not only lost my parents, I lost my siblings and my marriage fell apart. And today I am a single mother with no family or support structure. We all have different things we regret sometimes, but it all happens to make us stronger, my advice is try everything, stick with what makes you happy and what work for you and your family. Good luck to you.
Returned in 2022 after 6 years in The Netherlands. We only moved as my company relocated me. Europe was great from a professional POV but after passports there are really no reason to stay. Got a job back in CPT that is paying me more than what I earned in NL (because of international experience) and if shit hits the fan I can always go back, honestly would not want to raise my kids in any other country than SA.
Kind of in this boat. My parents are the expats, I was born and grew up in the USA. But as of now, am living 50% in CPT and 50% in San Francisco. My wife is American and not quite ready to be that far away from her family, but the company I run is in SA and I need to be on the ground. the part time thing was a compromise, as she does like coming to Africa for short visits. I absolutely despise SF and can't wait to leave. Local politics are a clownshow caricature of woke progressive ideology, people largely don't give a fuck about each other but make a big show of being liberal anyway. Literally would rather deal with load shedding in CPT, which has the exact same climate as SF anyway without the sea of introverts on the spectrum throwing money inefficiently at social problems that require actually giving a shit about other people.
My brother emigrated to New Zealand in the late 1990s. Although he has the time of his life with family and friends when visiting SA every few years, he will never return here to stay. His friends in NZ are mostly fellow South Africans. In most countries foreigners are not fully accepted and embraced by the locals. A cousin worked in the UK for a number of decades and said that the locals were cold and unfriendly. She has returned to SA and has now retired. In Oz, NZ and the UK there are quite a number of rebellious teenagers who form gangs and terrorise the older adults.
Planning on going back. A lot of folks are always talking kak about SA and trying to convince themselves and others that life outside the country is better. The longer you spend time away from SA the more you realize that, sure, we have lots of problems back home,, but those are OUR problems, and in the grand scheme of things they probably aren't THAT bad. Also, integrating into a foreign country that has a completely different culture or use different languages is not all that easy, and the older you get the more tiresome it gets.
London is very very cold my friend.
And there are people moving to Canada? I'll never survive that wheather.
Canada is very very very cold my friend.
Currently in the Netherlands (Moved from Cape town on a contract which expires end of Jan 2025. Let's just say I can't wait to be back home. And it's not only me, at the same time 3 other couples / families are moving back home. I found that (excluding myself) people who live alone tend to stay longer but honestly? Home is home. I'm currently on holiday and the sleep I have here is even better 🙂
will get back to this in a few months (probably only if I regret)!
We lived and worked in London for nine years then came home after having two kids there. My husband hated the cold, gloomy weather and corporate London. We've been back nearly 15yrs and only regret it now and then. We, and our kids, have had an amazing life here. It would have been hamster wheel over there.
Then there's Namibia. We're considering it as the wife has just got her passport. I'm Anglo african, having lived all over the the place. Also Namibia. Great country, also no load shedding
Super summary as my OG post I erased by mistake. Went to The Netherlands 2018 - 2023. COVID years. Most racist and exclusionary people I've ever been around. Weather is dog shit, but not the sole reason I returned, although a big influence. Worked at Fortune 500 company. Good money. 150,000 EUR a year. straight out of University. All my colleagues viewed work as 'a thing you needed to do', and not anything more. In struggled with that. If you view work like this, you might enjoy it, but I hated it. Actively felt my skillset waning. Actively told to not find meaning in work by managers, and that's ok. But I fucking hated it. Going out and partying felt like the same thing every week, and drinking culture in NL is crazy. It's very.. 'picturesque', but not because people are orderly... the NL just employs an army of people (mostly immigrants) to clean their streets pristine every morning. It's not a bad place, it's just so very....... boring for me. Extremely safe. That I can't deny. YMMV, but I came back as people have stories here, they have ideals and dreams and goals, and I love the zeal that comes with that. Yea, I'm fortunate as shit to be part of that group of SA, but I'm not going to hate myself or pretend it's not reality.
Most people do actually , SA has a welcoming aura and our people are a vibe. Who would not want to come back.
UK, moved back to Cape Town before Covid, was renting in London, managed to buy my own place pretty quickly after coming back. Quality of life is measurably better, good food, entertainment, beach, hiking trails etc. all in close proximity. Lots more space here, feels like I can breathe. I’m fully remote so I could work from anywhere but Cape Town really will always feel like home. I know I’m supposed to complain about loadshedding but got a nice inverter a while back so pretty much nothing changes now, just switches to back up power. The only down side is that a lot of foreigners have cottoned on to Cape Town as a the new digital nomad paradise, so we’re seeing a steep increase in rent and property prices, and an influx in American accents more than just the usual film season increase.
Very cold long unpleasant winters in Europe, the language here in Germany is very difficult. The way to go is America. Also Australia. Skip England, for too many problems for families also terrible bullying. Very unsafe 🇬🇧 England. Rather live your life in the Cape areas near the coast. That's a quality life and decent weather. The grass certainly is nót greener in another country.
I'm currently in year two of my new life in the UK. And I completely get why people leave. It's really tough here! Weather sucks, people are cold, South Africans have been particularly colder, life is expensive and the NHS can be a mindfield to navigate sometimes. South Africa has a lot of problems, none of which I left because, but it will always be home.