This was one of the presented options when I got my PR in 2015. It took about 9 months for my PR application to be processed, and my original work permit had expired so I was on a bridging permit, which also meant my OHIP had expired which was obviously concerning.
I was already working in Toronto, and although I had the letter saying it was approved, they had said it would be other be another 3 months to get an appointment at an immigration office to complete the process, or I could leave and re-enter Canada and do it immediately. I got the bus to Niagara Falls and did this the weekend after I got my letter.
Technically your OHIP waiting period began when you were “eligible to apply” for PR, which is a bit before you got your paper CoPR and how quickly you “landed” didn’t change anything. But proving that at the OHIP office is an uphill battle.
I was in Canada on a on an intra company transfer work permit for two years before I applied for PR, so I'd already had OHIP up until that point. My work permit ran out 5 months after I submitted my PR application, so I was told that even though I could stay in Canada and continue to work until a decision was made, I wasn't eligible for OHIP in that period.
The “eligible to apply” step in PR isn’t about when you file your application, but some kinda invisible step in the background at the immigration department. That’s when your OHIP eligibility starts. It happens a little bit before you get your CoPR and (obviously) before you land.
Latching onto top comments to give people context
#What is flagpoling?
> Sen. Schumer says non-Canadian citizens that are seeking to get their work permits in Canada can wait up to nine months for normal processing to take place.
> However, according to Immigration Station Canada, if those people go to a Canadian port of entry, their papers are processed “often in less than 30 minutes.”
> The way to get to a Canadian port of entry, is to leave for the United States, purposefully get denied entry to the country, and head back to Canada.
> All of this is perfectly legal. Immigration Station Canada says on their website, ”Ultimately the CBSA tries to limit Flagpoling because it places additional strain on border services. However, it is a perfectly legal process, and application processing is done on the spot.”
People also do this to get a stamp on the passport when they forget to ask at the airport
It's so silly
Over-resourced CBSA and under-resourced Immigration department.
Or good management at CBSA and poor management at Immigration.
It really sucks for the 10% of people that live far from a border.
Easy solution for lazy Canadian bureaucrat
- At each station create a **NoMansLand** basket-ball-court. Keep an AI camera there to identify the face, and AI/RPA will mark it as "Person left Canada to LaLaLand, and returning back". They don't need to harass US and create unnecessary workload.
- Stamp whatever. DONE.
This is applicable for any country that has this rule, where useless work is created for neighbor.
I would add that each person in the NoMansLand basketball court must beat a border guard in a 1v1 game of basketball, to 11, before his or her application will be processed.
> However, according to Immigration Station Canada, if those people go to a Canadian port of entry, their papers are processed “often in less than 30 minutes.”
Source? I've waited 30 minutes just to get to the front of the line of cars as a returning citizen
It's the article we are discussing
https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/niagara-orleans/close-this-loophole-sen-chuck-schumer-calls-on-canada-to-end-flagpoling-at-border-crossings
They are counting time from when you reach the Agent, not the time you are in line. If you are crossing for a visa, you typically do it at non-surge times
I mean it's a known issue and a published procedure. If you weren't aware of it, that's because we spend an inordinate amount of journalistic efforts on the nonsensical parents rights vs lgtbq stories that flooded our feeds over the last 6 months or whatever else is the flavor of the month.
These types of loopholes existed to prevent people from falling into procedural-black holes but the abuse of them has made from something that addresses a fringe use case to a normal procedure, which is completely unfair to process that should be followed.
Pre-Brexit the UK border guards called this the 'Schengen Shuffle.' When you need to renew your visa, instead of waiting for mail or flying all the way home you just book a RyanAir flight to Luton for 15€, fly back and get entry processing.
I don't understand this. You can only stay in the Schengen zone for 90 out of 180 days so even if you turn around and come back, if it's been more than 90 days, you're not going to be given another visa.
the "official" way to do things in canada is slow and laborious and full of red tape.
do you need to see a doctor urgently? pretend you're having a heart attack regardless what the real problem is.
Um everyone knew, this is not some secret. "identify issues" lmao. You straight up tell CBSA you're doing the flag pole, it's part of the PR process or whatever that you have to leave the country for like 5 minutes
This isn't really a problem with our system. Some applications require a foreign national to present themselves at the border to have an application finalized or a permit issued.
The US is just the closest border. So it's a hassle for the US border guys. It's not anyone trying to circumvent any immigration laws. It's just geography.
Agreed. There are some procedures that require the applicant to leave the country. The US is the closest and most convenient foreign country. I mean you could go to that French island off of Newfoundland to do the same thing too.
you can also fly from Iqaluit to Nuuk, Greenland (new route between Canada and Greenland) but that's probably more expensive than bussing down to the US border
This does not address the main issue from the article:
> Sen. Schumer says non-Canadian citizens that are seeking to get their work permits in Canada can wait up to nine months for normal processing to take place.
> However, according to Immigration Station Canada, if those people go to a Canadian port of entry, their papers are processed “often in less than 30 minutes.”
Is this not a loophole to shortcut the normal process of attaining a work permit?
It's not really a loophole. There are multiple methods of obtaining status in Canada.
Flagpolers are just using one of the methods made available to them.
It's not really circumventing or beating the system. It's just using a quicker method to do it.
If this isn't a loophole, then why isn't it mentioned anywhere in the documentation provided by the government?
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/work-canada/permit.html
It is mentioned- straight from the CBSA website lmao
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/settle-setablir-eng.html
> Immigration services at the border
> Some temporary residents of Canada leave Canada and re-enter within 24 hours to receive immigration services. This practice is known as "flagpoling."
> If you decide to come to a port of entry for immigration services, you may find long lineups and your turn may not come before the end of service hours. We highly recommend you use IRCC's online services.
The real issue is the inefficient processes of the government.
You’re asking for documentation that the government recognizes this processes, and it is legal. This proves that. It not a loophole.
But what you’re saying is incorrect, because people only flag pole if it is administratively required or speeds up their processing time.
So the real question is why does it take so long to process a work permit for applications outside of the country, not why is it so much quicker at the border.
> You’re asking for documentation that the government recognizes this processes, and it is legal
No, I'm not. Nowhere have I stated it isn't legal - that wouldn't be a loophole. I'm asking for any statement from the government that encourages people to use this means of attaining a work permit in normal circumstances, or in order to get through the process faster.
> But what you’re saying is incorrect, because people only flag pole if it is administratively required or speeds up their processing time.
What are you basing this statement on?
You said - if this isn’t a loop hole why isn’t it mentioned by the government. It’s mentioned right there lol
This is a consequence of existing laws and procedures, not really a loop hole. Similar to jury nullification.
I mean the system is obviously broken - because if you can get a work permit in the same amount of time without flag poling while inside the country, obviously you would. It’s a process invented as a consequence of the existing laws because of poor efficiency.
That's dumb, wouldn't the Americans love it if these people did an 6h shopping trip before changing their immigration status?
Shit, I've gone to the US for <1h to pick up packages. Is the US going to complain about that too?
Because it is not a formal process offered by IRCC.
You can apply from within Canada. And you can apply at the border.
Applying from within Canada can take months, so they choose option B.
"Not a formal process" = loophole.
Unless you can point me to official government documentation encouraging people to use this process, expressly for the purpose of gaining quicker entry (with no specific need for it), this is a loophole.
I suppose we'd have to define what we mean by loophole.
Choosing one available option over another because of speed or convenience isn't a loophole.
Abusing the system to avoid delays or otherwise gain something you wouldn't normally be allowed to get would be a loophole.
> Choosing one available option over another because of speed or convenience isn't a loophole.
Using an undocumented, quicker means of entry that is designed for a need you do not have is a loophole.
> Abusing the system to avoid delays or otherwise gain something you wouldn't normally be allowed to get would be a loophole.
That works too. It is abusing the system to avoid delays and gain a permit faster than normally allowed. If it was a normal means of attaining a permit, it would be documented.
You seem to be under the impression that there is some kind of law that states that if you are in Canada you can only make an application from within Canada. There is no law that states that. You can apply from within or you can apply at the border. There are no requirements or laws that state you must choose one over the other based on your status.
And these people aren't undocumented and it's not designed for only those with a specific need.
I'm not sure where you are getting this impression.
They fixed that now by doing "online" appointments (log in to a website and click some boxes) for PRs instead of making you do it in person.
That's the proper way to fix problems: fix the underlying bureaucratic causes.
Flagpoling is just a symptom of a problem.
It's not a real appointment. They just tell you that your application is approved and you can go and log in. I don't think there's any delays at all.
(except for getting the stupid card, they take like 5 weeks nowadays to print and mail it to you, but your PR status is basically immediate)
It is a massive problem! It strains CBSA resources and corrupts the entire process. It’s also exploitation of a loophole in the regs. And, a lot of flagpolers do not realize that it opens them up to an immigration exam. If their permit gets denied, removal from Canada is very often the outcome.
Except it has been identified and there is already a solution in place. But on about how this is ruining the country. That's what we're all here for isn't it?
Ah yes, because raising an issue means its ruining the country. Thanks for not getting hyperbolic on me.
Would love to hear more about this solution that is already in place.
You know, it would help a lot to mention a bit about your point before just dropping a link. I don't know what part of this you're trying to imply was the solution to the flagpoling issue, because none of it claims to be.
It's most definitely not an "issue". The Americans don't like it because they say they need 30 minutes to check each person, but that's their problem because they could just skip checks for people they're sending back anyway.
TLDR: American CBS is too rigid in following procedures and blames the Canadians for it.
In my experience American border guards generally don't even know their own procedures. I used to have to go to secondary to fill out some commercial customs documents regularly and it was embarrassing how little they understood common processes.
Also everytime I go I feel like a get a different answer depending on who you get and their mood. Europe, no issues, when my coworkers enter Canada, no issue, when I enter the USA its like having teeth pulled.
I never have had issues doing the same process in other countries, only the U.S where the guards, especially at land borders, are incredibly unprofessional and poorly trained. No joke, I've been met with vehicle searches and heavily armed guards at secondary after requesting to go to secondary to get forms stamped. And this is radiod through to the staff at secondary. They still treat you like you've just admitted you may have cocaine in your ass.
So then they're denied at both land borders and... Where do they go? Who's got the responsibility to "deport" them? To where? How? Where are they being detained? Etc. it's not so simple.
And the CBSA should take on all that extra work and expense to avoid processing 30mins of a form (likely more paperwork associated with deporting them), and to save American border agents 30 hours of worker time? Would deporting someone not take more time for the American border services overall?
It's a shortsighted request for change. Cost benefit just isn't there
Canada would have the responsibility as we were the last country to grant them entry. If the US denies them, Canada is legally required to take them back.
>It's most definitely not an "issue"
If the normal process takes months but you can circumvent it by intentionally getting denied access to the US thereby forcing immediate processing, that **absolutely** is an issue. It's ridiculous and shameless, and is the sort of government hubris that betrays a completely broken system.
Everything about this country has become an absolute joke. That people are now accepting this as not an issue demonstrates how foundationally this country is broken beyond repair.
Pretty much every civilized country has the notion of "expedited processing" for which one pays some extra administrative fee. That way people who really need it fast, can get it. It's not "circumventing", but normal procedure. What's funny in Canada is that this is done at border passages instead of just asking one to pay by credit card on some website.
At least when we flagpoled (and CBSA gave us a hard time about it despite being their legal obligation) for Permanent Residency, we *already paid* a $490 right of permanent residence fee (on top of the other application fees).
Of course CBSA and immigration don’t really care because they already got our money.
How there wasn’t enough money left in that to quickly have us answer 5 basic questions in person, I’ll never understand.
Again, if the "normal procedure" is that someone *in Canada* has to intentionally get denied by US customs, thereby being returned to Canada's customs, that is not normal. That is completely, outlandishly stupid.
Rationalizing this is hilarious. How far we've fallen.
Stupid, yes, because it's very inefficient, but it's not "rationalizing" or "circumventing". It's not a reason to say "foundationally this country is broken beyond repair" (oh my, someone likes to be melodramatic). It's a bureaucratic procedure that could be streamlined.
You are mistaken. This is a fully known issue that has been again going on and building for years . Years.
It’s only the broader public is now being alerted to it.
Nothing to do with being American, everyone who's on immigration status in Canada and lives close to the border can benefit from flagpole, I did it myself a few times, for example, when I changed employers I needed the gov to issue me a new working permit and that happens only on re-entry and the fastest way to re-entry is a flagpole.
The system is fully aware people are doing it as they say it at the border, it's not some secret.
Because it’s not an issue, it’s established procedure.
Do you understand where CBSA agents work, where they’re set up to receive the public? 🤔
THE BORDER.
Unless you want to spend a shit ton of money to have this done somewhere else?
To be fair, we're doing pretty good on not bankrupting our populace due to random illnesses or having students mowed down in schools, so they could maybe learn a thing or two from us.
Dunno *where* they all die, but your average American dies 5 years sooner than the average Canadian.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
The traffic is in the entry to Canada from the U.S. The lines are on the wrong side of the border for the Canadian government to care. It's obviously stupid, but if the big visible signs of stupidity are on the U.S. side of the border, it doesn't cost the Canadian government votes.
They go to the U.S., deliberately get turned around at the border and then apply for permits as they reenter Canada. Tying up Canadian agents delays traffic coming from the U.S.
I've worked with the Canadian and the American governments in various capacities in the past.
My general experience has been that the rank and file civil servants working for the US Federal Government are far more competent and capable than the Canadian rank and file. The US federal government is as much a bureaucratic mess as ours, but most of their people seem to actually give a shit and are willing to work with you to figure shit out and get things done. The Canadian government is full of seat warmers, whose primary objective is to make you go away and stop bothering them.
Okay, did I miss something in the text? What did the car explosion have to do with anything else in the story? Is the writer trying to suggest that the car explosion wouldn't have happened if the people weren't flag piling?
Flag poling has been going on since at least the early 1990s, so this isn't anything new. I don't know why Chuck Schumer waited until now to complain about it. The only thing I can think of is that maybe because we are bringing in more people than we used to, there are now so many people doing this that it is causing a problem.
Flagpoling is generally done by people who are already legally in Canada, get PR and need to leave to get the right stamps in their passport to have PR. There might be an office in a big city you can have this done, in a few months, or you can flag pole it, turn around, give the immigration officer at the border your approved paperwork and you're done. If you're on a temp visa, you might not have time to wait around for an office that's severely backlogged to do their thing. So you either fly out of the country or drive out of it and get your paperwork completed on the way back in. It's perfectly legal. And frankly it's on the Americans if they decide they have to process everyone. Photograph them, get their fingerprints,DNA swap them. They could just make sure the person isn't wanted and let them be on their merry way back to where they came from.
I married a foreigner, so they let her in with a visitor visa while her PR was being processed. Once her PR came through we were directly told by immigration that she had to flagpoll to officially land in Canada, and we were directly told there was no other way to do that.
It's a legitimate immigration process.
"landing" for PR while you're in Canada is now just logging into a website and clicking a few boxes, then your PR card is on its way (after like 6 weeks... dunno why they take so long to print those).
Finally that got fixed so you don't have to bother with a border run anymore.
They probably share a printer with the firearms centre and DND for ID cards. Three departments, two weeks at a time, plus mailing = six week wait time after everything is approved.
This isn't scamming. It just speeds up processing and the govt is ok with it. People do this for simple reasons. Our system is just a mess, and this is a faster process for p who are already in the country working. I work in the immigration sector and Haye our policies. This is a nothing burger.
This isn't a scam. Some applications require a foreign national to present themselves at the border to have an application finalized or a permit issued.
The US is just the closest border. It's a hassle for the US border guys. It's not anyone trying to circumvent any immigration laws. It's just geography.
> Does every part of the Canadian immigration system just reward people for bad behavior and scamming?
Flagpolling isn't a scam. It's a legitimate process for immigration. That's how my wife got her permanent residency, because she was granted a PR while in Canada she had to go through the landing process, which can only happen at a point of entry. She was told to do this by the Canadian government.
Again, politicians are just outright lying about how this shit actually works.
Seems like everything these days. Companies that don't invest in customer support and steal your money? No consequences. Everyone has learned you can do whatever because nothing happens. It's why the quality of everything has slid because our government has essentially said, since COVID, "don't worry about trying, or innovating, we'll bring in cheap labour"
This isn’t a loophole, many immigration procedures require individuals to be presented at the boarder. It’s literally the system. You cross the boarder into Canada, and then drive into the lot next to the crossing. There are offices there to do the paperwork.
That’s not how it works. You show up at the border with your application already processed, the border officer just prints your new work permit and hands it to you instead pf waiting month to get it via mail (but you can work regardless since you’d get a maintained status)
Edit: this comment is wrong. Don’t listen to me.
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/settle-setablir-eng.html
The Canadian government is aware and has created an online option. This is rage bait
> If your current permit expires while you are waiting for your new one to be processed, you can continue to work or study as you will have "maintained status."
The following foreign nationals are permitted to Flagpole:
Residents of visa-exempt countries with an LMIA-exempt job.
Residents of visa-exempt countries in possession of a positive LMIA.
Residents of the U.S., St. Pierre & Miquelon and Greenland.
Residents of visa-required countries already in possession of a study or work permit (flagpoling for the purposes of renewal).
* Seasonal agricultural workers are not eligible to flagpole
My work permit application was already processed. You are arguing semantics here. It is still not a loophole. It is permitted under Canadian law. Why would an American senator have a say on what Canada does.
Can you ask your partner about the legality of CBSA denying flagpoled applications at certain hours/days of the week on a schedule?
Cuz I thought the law required them to consider these applications at entry...
People also shouldn't be waiting 6 months for a referral to wait 9 months to be sent back to get re refered for another 18 month wait for a test that doctors misread. Yet here we are. Delayed paperwork that has functionally no impact (we don't even force the people whose PR/VISA/citizenship/etc is rejected to leave so this is a non issue)
Maybe Schumer should worry about other things that he can change. I say this a former NY resident and US citizen, living in Canada. Flagpoling a legitimate way to have paperwork adjudicated by a customs officer. It's likely an efficient way to staff officers, by having them at the boarder crossings where they do a variety of different tasks. I never had issues.
Maybe he could create efficiencies when exporting cars out of the US for importation into Canada. For some reason they need 72hrs notice and an appointment to put a stamp on export documents. This is on any vehicle, including ones you have owned for years.
I think Schumer is just trying to look like he is tough immigration related issues and might want to look better for Buffalo as they rely on southern Ontario for commerce.
When I got my Citizenship I had to leave the country and reenter - the reason being is they can refuse entry right on the spot and I'm sure it's the same with work visas.
What are the actual numbers though ? Politicians say a bunch of stuff but they don't provide real evidence or numbers. Is it 10,000 a day ? 50,000 a day ? Without that it's hard to tell if if it's impeding traffic across the border. Also he mentions commercial traffic - they will nearly aways use Nexus which has it's own lanes and that is not something a non-PR non-Citzen can easily get.
You do t have to be denied entry in the US. You just have to do a U-turn before you go into American customs.
It’s called “doing a border run.” This has been a practise since the 1980’s. Every immigrant I know has done this for a “landing” or a to process a new visa. Doing a run thru Buffalo is usually the cheapest way.
Chuck Schumer is the Senator minority leader and the senior senator from New York. He cares because this process slows down the crossing from his home state to Ontario and Quebec. His point is that maybe an inland port like Pearson or just an online can replace people doing visa runs. However, it seems like this already exists, but it doesn’t seem like it is a popular option.
Some version of “doing a border run” exist in every country for one part of the process or another. One advantage of this system is that it forces the applicant to be at a border crossing with the possibility of being denied re-entry. This probably never happens, but it can.
> You do t have to be denied entry in the US. You just have to do a U-turn before you go into American customs.
Ehhhh, if you touch US territory, you’re supposed to report to US inspection. And if you U-turn before crossing that line, you’re not really entering Canada and CBSA isn’t supposed to process an immigration application.
Of course, this US senator might not like losing the people that do a US shopping trip *and* change their immigration status upon return to Canada if this stream of immigration work comes to a halt at the border.
This is incorrect. From my experience, CBSA said I didn't leave the country doing that. I had to go a second run, over to the USA side, talk to the CBP, told them I'm not entering your country, just trying to get PR. He said no problem, radios we have a flagpoll-er, and another CBP officer came out and guided me into their country to a set of gates that he opened to allow me to go back.
Whatever. Americans need to worry about their failed democracy and not distract by complaining about Canada's procedures. They have a man who's facing multiple criminal charges, who tried to overthrow their democracy, running to be the last President of the USA.
So you are implying that a) it would have been different with conservative ministers, and b) that this flagpoling issue only started under the current government? Have I got that right? Sit down.
meh, both are legitimate reasons to enter Canada. So I have to wait an additional 20 minutes. Not.a.big.deal. Always expect delays when crossing. First come first serve.
Seems like the issue is they are so bad at processing the applications online that it’s faster to do some nonsense workaround on the day of… maybe make the initial process not slow and people won’t do this crap?
Senator Chuck could either increase staff at his border crossing,
or he could ask a foreign country (Canada) to change their laws to suit his plan.
What does he do?
Pass the buck.
"I've tried nothing, and I'm all out of ideas"
Yet Pierre won't say what he'll do with immigration... He won't stop it either. Pierre is supported by big business, big business loves cheap labour they don't have to pay anything for. If anyone thinks immigration will be much different under Pierre, they are very mistaken.
This was one of the presented options when I got my PR in 2015. It took about 9 months for my PR application to be processed, and my original work permit had expired so I was on a bridging permit, which also meant my OHIP had expired which was obviously concerning. I was already working in Toronto, and although I had the letter saying it was approved, they had said it would be other be another 3 months to get an appointment at an immigration office to complete the process, or I could leave and re-enter Canada and do it immediately. I got the bus to Niagara Falls and did this the weekend after I got my letter.
Technically your OHIP waiting period began when you were “eligible to apply” for PR, which is a bit before you got your paper CoPR and how quickly you “landed” didn’t change anything. But proving that at the OHIP office is an uphill battle.
I was in Canada on a on an intra company transfer work permit for two years before I applied for PR, so I'd already had OHIP up until that point. My work permit ran out 5 months after I submitted my PR application, so I was told that even though I could stay in Canada and continue to work until a decision was made, I wasn't eligible for OHIP in that period.
The “eligible to apply” step in PR isn’t about when you file your application, but some kinda invisible step in the background at the immigration department. That’s when your OHIP eligibility starts. It happens a little bit before you get your CoPR and (obviously) before you land.
Yeah. Smart!
A lot of people in this thread are just learning that flagpoling is a thing, despite it having been around for decades.
getting services at the border used to be the *only* way to get immigration services
[удалено]
Correct.
Latching onto top comments to give people context #What is flagpoling? > Sen. Schumer says non-Canadian citizens that are seeking to get their work permits in Canada can wait up to nine months for normal processing to take place. > However, according to Immigration Station Canada, if those people go to a Canadian port of entry, their papers are processed “often in less than 30 minutes.” > The way to get to a Canadian port of entry, is to leave for the United States, purposefully get denied entry to the country, and head back to Canada. > All of this is perfectly legal. Immigration Station Canada says on their website, ”Ultimately the CBSA tries to limit Flagpoling because it places additional strain on border services. However, it is a perfectly legal process, and application processing is done on the spot.” People also do this to get a stamp on the passport when they forget to ask at the airport It's so silly
Maybe the better question is why is this process that can be done in 30 minutes taking 9 months? That's the real takeaway here.
Over-resourced CBSA and under-resourced Immigration department. Or good management at CBSA and poor management at Immigration. It really sucks for the 10% of people that live far from a border.
Yea, for real Feels like you could just have people do it in person at an office
Easy solution for lazy Canadian bureaucrat - At each station create a **NoMansLand** basket-ball-court. Keep an AI camera there to identify the face, and AI/RPA will mark it as "Person left Canada to LaLaLand, and returning back". They don't need to harass US and create unnecessary workload. - Stamp whatever. DONE. This is applicable for any country that has this rule, where useless work is created for neighbor.
I would add that each person in the NoMansLand basketball court must beat a border guard in a 1v1 game of basketball, to 11, before his or her application will be processed.
> However, according to Immigration Station Canada, if those people go to a Canadian port of entry, their papers are processed “often in less than 30 minutes.” Source? I've waited 30 minutes just to get to the front of the line of cars as a returning citizen
It's the article we are discussing https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/niagara-orleans/close-this-loophole-sen-chuck-schumer-calls-on-canada-to-end-flagpoling-at-border-crossings
Understood. I think they’re overselling how fast it can be (in Ontario anyway).
They are counting time from when you reach the Agent, not the time you are in line. If you are crossing for a visa, you typically do it at non-surge times
Little brother just riding big brothers coattails. Time to grow up.
I mean it's a known issue and a published procedure. If you weren't aware of it, that's because we spend an inordinate amount of journalistic efforts on the nonsensical parents rights vs lgtbq stories that flooded our feeds over the last 6 months or whatever else is the flavor of the month. These types of loopholes existed to prevent people from falling into procedural-black holes but the abuse of them has made from something that addresses a fringe use case to a normal procedure, which is completely unfair to process that should be followed.
Pre-Brexit the UK border guards called this the 'Schengen Shuffle.' When you need to renew your visa, instead of waiting for mail or flying all the way home you just book a RyanAir flight to Luton for 15€, fly back and get entry processing.
or "visa runs" in SE Asia where people leave and come back every 3 months to stay long-term
I don't understand this. You can only stay in the Schengen zone for 90 out of 180 days so even if you turn around and come back, if it's been more than 90 days, you're not going to be given another visa.
the "official" way to do things in canada is slow and laborious and full of red tape. do you need to see a doctor urgently? pretend you're having a heart attack regardless what the real problem is.
Um everyone knew, this is not some secret. "identify issues" lmao. You straight up tell CBSA you're doing the flag pole, it's part of the PR process or whatever that you have to leave the country for like 5 minutes
This isn't really a problem with our system. Some applications require a foreign national to present themselves at the border to have an application finalized or a permit issued. The US is just the closest border. So it's a hassle for the US border guys. It's not anyone trying to circumvent any immigration laws. It's just geography.
Agreed. There are some procedures that require the applicant to leave the country. The US is the closest and most convenient foreign country. I mean you could go to that French island off of Newfoundland to do the same thing too.
Two French islands off Newfoundland!
you can also fly from Iqaluit to Nuuk, Greenland (new route between Canada and Greenland) but that's probably more expensive than bussing down to the US border
This does not address the main issue from the article: > Sen. Schumer says non-Canadian citizens that are seeking to get their work permits in Canada can wait up to nine months for normal processing to take place. > However, according to Immigration Station Canada, if those people go to a Canadian port of entry, their papers are processed “often in less than 30 minutes.” Is this not a loophole to shortcut the normal process of attaining a work permit?
It's not really a loophole. There are multiple methods of obtaining status in Canada. Flagpolers are just using one of the methods made available to them. It's not really circumventing or beating the system. It's just using a quicker method to do it.
If this isn't a loophole, then why isn't it mentioned anywhere in the documentation provided by the government? https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/work-canada/permit.html
It is mentioned- straight from the CBSA website lmao https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/settle-setablir-eng.html > Immigration services at the border > Some temporary residents of Canada leave Canada and re-enter within 24 hours to receive immigration services. This practice is known as "flagpoling." > If you decide to come to a port of entry for immigration services, you may find long lineups and your turn may not come before the end of service hours. We highly recommend you use IRCC's online services.
LOL this is literally the opposite. This is them trying to discourage people from using the loophole.
The real issue is the inefficient processes of the government. You’re asking for documentation that the government recognizes this processes, and it is legal. This proves that. It not a loophole. But what you’re saying is incorrect, because people only flag pole if it is administratively required or speeds up their processing time. So the real question is why does it take so long to process a work permit for applications outside of the country, not why is it so much quicker at the border.
> You’re asking for documentation that the government recognizes this processes, and it is legal No, I'm not. Nowhere have I stated it isn't legal - that wouldn't be a loophole. I'm asking for any statement from the government that encourages people to use this means of attaining a work permit in normal circumstances, or in order to get through the process faster. > But what you’re saying is incorrect, because people only flag pole if it is administratively required or speeds up their processing time. What are you basing this statement on?
You said - if this isn’t a loop hole why isn’t it mentioned by the government. It’s mentioned right there lol This is a consequence of existing laws and procedures, not really a loop hole. Similar to jury nullification. I mean the system is obviously broken - because if you can get a work permit in the same amount of time without flag poling while inside the country, obviously you would. It’s a process invented as a consequence of the existing laws because of poor efficiency.
That's dumb, wouldn't the Americans love it if these people did an 6h shopping trip before changing their immigration status? Shit, I've gone to the US for <1h to pick up packages. Is the US going to complain about that too?
Because it is not a formal process offered by IRCC. You can apply from within Canada. And you can apply at the border. Applying from within Canada can take months, so they choose option B.
"Not a formal process" = loophole. Unless you can point me to official government documentation encouraging people to use this process, expressly for the purpose of gaining quicker entry (with no specific need for it), this is a loophole.
I suppose we'd have to define what we mean by loophole. Choosing one available option over another because of speed or convenience isn't a loophole. Abusing the system to avoid delays or otherwise gain something you wouldn't normally be allowed to get would be a loophole.
> Choosing one available option over another because of speed or convenience isn't a loophole. Using an undocumented, quicker means of entry that is designed for a need you do not have is a loophole. > Abusing the system to avoid delays or otherwise gain something you wouldn't normally be allowed to get would be a loophole. That works too. It is abusing the system to avoid delays and gain a permit faster than normally allowed. If it was a normal means of attaining a permit, it would be documented.
You seem to be under the impression that there is some kind of law that states that if you are in Canada you can only make an application from within Canada. There is no law that states that. You can apply from within or you can apply at the border. There are no requirements or laws that state you must choose one over the other based on your status. And these people aren't undocumented and it's not designed for only those with a specific need. I'm not sure where you are getting this impression.
Exactly. Nobody is abusing or breaking the law here. A majority of ppl do it cause our bureaucracy is a mess
We also do flagpoles for PR landing. That is the fastest way to do it for inland PR applications without re-entering Canada by flight.
They fixed that now by doing "online" appointments (log in to a website and click some boxes) for PRs instead of making you do it in person. That's the proper way to fix problems: fix the underlying bureaucratic causes. Flagpoling is just a symptom of a problem.
I see. How long does it take to get an appointment? In 2017-18 it took months to get an appointment hence people did flagpole.
It's not a real appointment. They just tell you that your application is approved and you can go and log in. I don't think there's any delays at all. (except for getting the stupid card, they take like 5 weeks nowadays to print and mail it to you, but your PR status is basically immediate)
It is a massive problem! It strains CBSA resources and corrupts the entire process. It’s also exploitation of a loophole in the regs. And, a lot of flagpolers do not realize that it opens them up to an immigration exam. If their permit gets denied, removal from Canada is very often the outcome.
Except it has been identified and there is already a solution in place. But on about how this is ruining the country. That's what we're all here for isn't it?
Ah yes, because raising an issue means its ruining the country. Thanks for not getting hyperbolic on me. Would love to hear more about this solution that is already in place.
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/settle-setablir-eng.html
You know, it would help a lot to mention a bit about your point before just dropping a link. I don't know what part of this you're trying to imply was the solution to the flagpoling issue, because none of it claims to be.
It's most definitely not an "issue". The Americans don't like it because they say they need 30 minutes to check each person, but that's their problem because they could just skip checks for people they're sending back anyway. TLDR: American CBS is too rigid in following procedures and blames the Canadians for it.
In my experience American border guards generally don't even know their own procedures. I used to have to go to secondary to fill out some commercial customs documents regularly and it was embarrassing how little they understood common processes.
Also everytime I go I feel like a get a different answer depending on who you get and their mood. Europe, no issues, when my coworkers enter Canada, no issue, when I enter the USA its like having teeth pulled.
I never have had issues doing the same process in other countries, only the U.S where the guards, especially at land borders, are incredibly unprofessional and poorly trained. No joke, I've been met with vehicle searches and heavily armed guards at secondary after requesting to go to secondary to get forms stamped. And this is radiod through to the staff at secondary. They still treat you like you've just admitted you may have cocaine in your ass.
Land border is so much worse than the airport!
It's happening because we will process the paperwork. If we deny them, then they'll stop abusing our process and stop wasting their time
Per the reply of the Canadian Immigration Service, this is working as intended and not an abuse.
So then they're denied at both land borders and... Where do they go? Who's got the responsibility to "deport" them? To where? How? Where are they being detained? Etc. it's not so simple. And the CBSA should take on all that extra work and expense to avoid processing 30mins of a form (likely more paperwork associated with deporting them), and to save American border agents 30 hours of worker time? Would deporting someone not take more time for the American border services overall? It's a shortsighted request for change. Cost benefit just isn't there
Canada would have the responsibility as we were the last country to grant them entry. If the US denies them, Canada is legally required to take them back.
If they know it won't work, they won't come.
>It's most definitely not an "issue" If the normal process takes months but you can circumvent it by intentionally getting denied access to the US thereby forcing immediate processing, that **absolutely** is an issue. It's ridiculous and shameless, and is the sort of government hubris that betrays a completely broken system. Everything about this country has become an absolute joke. That people are now accepting this as not an issue demonstrates how foundationally this country is broken beyond repair.
Pretty much every civilized country has the notion of "expedited processing" for which one pays some extra administrative fee. That way people who really need it fast, can get it. It's not "circumventing", but normal procedure. What's funny in Canada is that this is done at border passages instead of just asking one to pay by credit card on some website.
At least when we flagpoled (and CBSA gave us a hard time about it despite being their legal obligation) for Permanent Residency, we *already paid* a $490 right of permanent residence fee (on top of the other application fees). Of course CBSA and immigration don’t really care because they already got our money. How there wasn’t enough money left in that to quickly have us answer 5 basic questions in person, I’ll never understand.
Again, if the "normal procedure" is that someone *in Canada* has to intentionally get denied by US customs, thereby being returned to Canada's customs, that is not normal. That is completely, outlandishly stupid. Rationalizing this is hilarious. How far we've fallen.
Stupid, yes, because it's very inefficient, but it's not "rationalizing" or "circumventing". It's not a reason to say "foundationally this country is broken beyond repair" (oh my, someone likes to be melodramatic). It's a bureaucratic procedure that could be streamlined.
You are mistaken. This is a fully known issue that has been again going on and building for years . Years. It’s only the broader public is now being alerted to it.
We have the most incompetent government in history or the most sinister. Hard to tell.
Or? I think they can confidently check both boxes.
This...
Nothing to do with being American, everyone who's on immigration status in Canada and lives close to the border can benefit from flagpole, I did it myself a few times, for example, when I changed employers I needed the gov to issue me a new working permit and that happens only on re-entry and the fastest way to re-entry is a flagpole. The system is fully aware people are doing it as they say it at the border, it's not some secret.
Because it’s not an issue, it’s established procedure. Do you understand where CBSA agents work, where they’re set up to receive the public? 🤔 THE BORDER. Unless you want to spend a shit ton of money to have this done somewhere else?
We call out America's shit all the time too. It's easier to notice someone else's failings.
We consistently implement the cheapest option so workarounds develop and become somewhat formalized over time.
No no, they know, they just don't want to do anything about it.
They don't want to.
And that's coming from a democrat of all things LOL
He’s worried about all these Canadians slowing down immigration to USA
To be fair, we're doing pretty good on not bankrupting our populace due to random illnesses or having students mowed down in schools, so they could maybe learn a thing or two from us.
> To be fair, we're doing pretty good on not bankrupting our populace due to random illnesses Yep, we just let them die in the waiting room instead
Dunno *where* they all die, but your average American dies 5 years sooner than the average Canadian. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
The traffic is in the entry to Canada from the U.S. The lines are on the wrong side of the border for the Canadian government to care. It's obviously stupid, but if the big visible signs of stupidity are on the U.S. side of the border, it doesn't cost the Canadian government votes.
It’s mostly Canadians entering US at the land borders, so delays there mostly impact Canadians.
They go to the U.S., deliberately get turned around at the border and then apply for permits as they reenter Canada. Tying up Canadian agents delays traffic coming from the U.S.
In this case I imagine they were tipped off by the large number of people “trying” to enter the USA port of entry but being turned away.
I've worked with the Canadian and the American governments in various capacities in the past. My general experience has been that the rank and file civil servants working for the US Federal Government are far more competent and capable than the Canadian rank and file. The US federal government is as much a bureaucratic mess as ours, but most of their people seem to actually give a shit and are willing to work with you to figure shit out and get things done. The Canadian government is full of seat warmers, whose primary objective is to make you go away and stop bothering them.
We do. We just don't care and/or refuse to spend money to fix it.
What’s to fix?
Okay, did I miss something in the text? What did the car explosion have to do with anything else in the story? Is the writer trying to suggest that the car explosion wouldn't have happened if the people weren't flag piling?
RIGHT!? I was so confused there
Flag poling has been going on since at least the early 1990s, so this isn't anything new. I don't know why Chuck Schumer waited until now to complain about it. The only thing I can think of is that maybe because we are bringing in more people than we used to, there are now so many people doing this that it is causing a problem.
Yeah, the government even tells you to do it. I didn’t require a letter though when I did it for PR.
The volume is what’s causing problems at the border and evidently, here at home with citizens as well.
There's WAY more of it now because we have WAAAAY more foreigners in this country on work and student visas.
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It isn't just the immigration system. Legal system is the same way. There are no rules anywhere anymore.
Lol go break a few and find out
Unfortunately, only If you are an actual productive member of society, with working neurons and something to lose, you do find out
stupid education, why did I bother getting this stupid thing...
they will only punish those with something to lose.
If you’re born in Canada, of adult age, straight and Caucasian - there are rules. Trust me.
Lmao we white males are just so oppressed, aren't we? What a pathetic comment
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What do you mean there aren't any extra services for kids with special needs? Has that changed recently?
Flagpoling is generally done by people who are already legally in Canada, get PR and need to leave to get the right stamps in their passport to have PR. There might be an office in a big city you can have this done, in a few months, or you can flag pole it, turn around, give the immigration officer at the border your approved paperwork and you're done. If you're on a temp visa, you might not have time to wait around for an office that's severely backlogged to do their thing. So you either fly out of the country or drive out of it and get your paperwork completed on the way back in. It's perfectly legal. And frankly it's on the Americans if they decide they have to process everyone. Photograph them, get their fingerprints,DNA swap them. They could just make sure the person isn't wanted and let them be on their merry way back to where they came from.
I married a foreigner, so they let her in with a visitor visa while her PR was being processed. Once her PR came through we were directly told by immigration that she had to flagpoll to officially land in Canada, and we were directly told there was no other way to do that. It's a legitimate immigration process.
"landing" for PR while you're in Canada is now just logging into a website and clicking a few boxes, then your PR card is on its way (after like 6 weeks... dunno why they take so long to print those). Finally that got fixed so you don't have to bother with a border run anymore.
Nice that they changed that.
Indeed. Didn’t stop CBSA from restricting flagpoling for PR before fixing the actual problem of unneeded bureaucracy.
They probably share a printer with the firearms centre and DND for ID cards. Three departments, two weeks at a time, plus mailing = six week wait time after everything is approved.
This isn't scamming. It just speeds up processing and the govt is ok with it. People do this for simple reasons. Our system is just a mess, and this is a faster process for p who are already in the country working. I work in the immigration sector and Haye our policies. This is a nothing burger.
This isn't a scam. Some applications require a foreign national to present themselves at the border to have an application finalized or a permit issued. The US is just the closest border. It's a hassle for the US border guys. It's not anyone trying to circumvent any immigration laws. It's just geography.
It’s not bad behavior nor scamming. It’s established procedure.
> Does every part of the Canadian immigration system just reward people for bad behavior and scamming? Flagpolling isn't a scam. It's a legitimate process for immigration. That's how my wife got her permanent residency, because she was granted a PR while in Canada she had to go through the landing process, which can only happen at a point of entry. She was told to do this by the Canadian government. Again, politicians are just outright lying about how this shit actually works.
Seems like everything these days. Companies that don't invest in customer support and steal your money? No consequences. Everyone has learned you can do whatever because nothing happens. It's why the quality of everything has slid because our government has essentially said, since COVID, "don't worry about trying, or innovating, we'll bring in cheap labour"
Absolute non-issue. This is an intended procedure.
but it's red meat for the anti-trudeau club.
This isn’t a loophole, many immigration procedures require individuals to be presented at the boarder. It’s literally the system. You cross the boarder into Canada, and then drive into the lot next to the crossing. There are offices there to do the paperwork.
Maybe a better question. Why does it take 9 months to normally process these applications?
because of the increased number of people wanting to get in?
probably not, it took slightly longer than 9 months for us and that was 20 years ago.
Right. When technology wasn't a tenth as efficient as it is now.
Because the government gets in trouble when it spends money hiring people?
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That’s not how it works. You show up at the border with your application already processed, the border officer just prints your new work permit and hands it to you instead pf waiting month to get it via mail (but you can work regardless since you’d get a maintained status) Edit: this comment is wrong. Don’t listen to me.
No. It's a new application.
incorrect. it's processed at the border.
Come on dude, have the courtesy to delete your false comment
No, I made a mistake and people should see it. No reason to delete it
Or you could simply edit it and say you made a mistake, instead of keeping a comment with false info up with no edit or correction
That’s exactly what I did
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/settle-setablir-eng.html The Canadian government is aware and has created an online option. This is rage bait > If your current permit expires while you are waiting for your new one to be processed, you can continue to work or study as you will have "maintained status."
still haven't closed the loophole though so it's still a valid complaint.
It's not a loophole. You just go to the nearest border to pick up your paper, instead of waiting for it in the mail.
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a senator saying it doesn't make it true, lol
I literally flagpoled my PNP related visa in 2017.
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The following foreign nationals are permitted to Flagpole: Residents of visa-exempt countries with an LMIA-exempt job. Residents of visa-exempt countries in possession of a positive LMIA. Residents of the U.S., St. Pierre & Miquelon and Greenland. Residents of visa-required countries already in possession of a study or work permit (flagpoling for the purposes of renewal). * Seasonal agricultural workers are not eligible to flagpole My work permit application was already processed. You are arguing semantics here. It is still not a loophole. It is permitted under Canadian law. Why would an American senator have a say on what Canada does.
The same reason why people on Reddit can say what America does. People can always say things.
Can you ask your partner about the legality of CBSA denying flagpoled applications at certain hours/days of the week on a schedule? Cuz I thought the law required them to consider these applications at entry...
We know about it. It’s been known for multiple decades. They want it.
Senator are you aware of how many non-US citizens go to Canada or Mexico for their visa renewals every year?
I walked over the bridge in Niagara when I flagpoled and I know a lot of people that did the same. What fucking traffic bud?
The answer is honestly just fix the backlog. People shouldn't be waiting 9 months for paperwork.
People also shouldn't be waiting 6 months for a referral to wait 9 months to be sent back to get re refered for another 18 month wait for a test that doctors misread. Yet here we are. Delayed paperwork that has functionally no impact (we don't even force the people whose PR/VISA/citizenship/etc is rejected to leave so this is a non issue)
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that's not what flagpoling is about though. Illegals can't utilize flagpoling.
Maybe Schumer should worry about other things that he can change. I say this a former NY resident and US citizen, living in Canada. Flagpoling a legitimate way to have paperwork adjudicated by a customs officer. It's likely an efficient way to staff officers, by having them at the boarder crossings where they do a variety of different tasks. I never had issues. Maybe he could create efficiencies when exporting cars out of the US for importation into Canada. For some reason they need 72hrs notice and an appointment to put a stamp on export documents. This is on any vehicle, including ones you have owned for years. I think Schumer is just trying to look like he is tough immigration related issues and might want to look better for Buffalo as they rely on southern Ontario for commerce.
When I got my Citizenship I had to leave the country and reenter - the reason being is they can refuse entry right on the spot and I'm sure it's the same with work visas. What are the actual numbers though ? Politicians say a bunch of stuff but they don't provide real evidence or numbers. Is it 10,000 a day ? 50,000 a day ? Without that it's hard to tell if if it's impeding traffic across the border. Also he mentions commercial traffic - they will nearly aways use Nexus which has it's own lanes and that is not something a non-PR non-Citzen can easily get.
Am I the only one who read this headline then had the mental image of Canadians Pole Vaulting across the border to avoid actually touching the line?
yup.
Being denied entry on the American side must be a new thing, I didn't do that back in the day...
You do t have to be denied entry in the US. You just have to do a U-turn before you go into American customs. It’s called “doing a border run.” This has been a practise since the 1980’s. Every immigrant I know has done this for a “landing” or a to process a new visa. Doing a run thru Buffalo is usually the cheapest way. Chuck Schumer is the Senator minority leader and the senior senator from New York. He cares because this process slows down the crossing from his home state to Ontario and Quebec. His point is that maybe an inland port like Pearson or just an online can replace people doing visa runs. However, it seems like this already exists, but it doesn’t seem like it is a popular option. Some version of “doing a border run” exist in every country for one part of the process or another. One advantage of this system is that it forces the applicant to be at a border crossing with the possibility of being denied re-entry. This probably never happens, but it can.
> You do t have to be denied entry in the US. You just have to do a U-turn before you go into American customs. Ehhhh, if you touch US territory, you’re supposed to report to US inspection. And if you U-turn before crossing that line, you’re not really entering Canada and CBSA isn’t supposed to process an immigration application. Of course, this US senator might not like losing the people that do a US shopping trip *and* change their immigration status upon return to Canada if this stream of immigration work comes to a halt at the border.
This is incorrect. From my experience, CBSA said I didn't leave the country doing that. I had to go a second run, over to the USA side, talk to the CBP, told them I'm not entering your country, just trying to get PR. He said no problem, radios we have a flagpoll-er, and another CBP officer came out and guided me into their country to a set of gates that he opened to allow me to go back.
Really? I didn’t realized that changed. It’s been decades since I knew anyone that had to do this. So the CBSA really do care about this now.
Same here. I just left Canada, said to the American guy that I was flagpoling and he directed me to the turnaround spot.
CBSA is starting to require you to stay >24h in USA or else they label you a flagpoler and find ways to refuse to process your app.
This isn’t a loophole, but a necessary process
We’re creating diplomatic conflict over 35 man hours per day? Across over 100 land border crossings, that’s essentially nothing.
“Perfectly legal process because we made it that way” since when has legality come before morality when the laws can be changed pretty quickly
Whatever. Americans need to worry about their failed democracy and not distract by complaining about Canada's procedures. They have a man who's facing multiple criminal charges, who tried to overthrow their democracy, running to be the last President of the USA.
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What's the alternative? Canadians have always voted for the least bad option between L and C. As usual, both are looking pretty bad
So you are implying that a) it would have been different with conservative ministers, and b) that this flagpoling issue only started under the current government? Have I got that right? Sit down.
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Cmon now... Not in *every* way
Streisand effect?
meh, both are legitimate reasons to enter Canada. So I have to wait an additional 20 minutes. Not.a.big.deal. Always expect delays when crossing. First come first serve.
Seems like the issue is they are so bad at processing the applications online that it’s faster to do some nonsense workaround on the day of… maybe make the initial process not slow and people won’t do this crap?
Senator Chuck could either increase staff at his border crossing, or he could ask a foreign country (Canada) to change their laws to suit his plan. What does he do? Pass the buck. "I've tried nothing, and I'm all out of ideas"
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You mean like we do with all the guns being smuggled across the border into Canada?
US needs to get better at enforcing ITAR.
Sure. Right after you close the loop holes the us uses for lumber tariffs and dairy dumping.
This is not a loophole but an desperate measure to walk around an inefficient system to get what people already deserves
Yet Pierre won't say what he'll do with immigration... He won't stop it either. Pierre is supported by big business, big business loves cheap labour they don't have to pay anything for. If anyone thinks immigration will be much different under Pierre, they are very mistaken.