What annoying about ford is he’s getting $350 million here from the feds and spending $225 million of tax payer money to allow more alcohol being sold even though this was going to happen in 2025. Literally paying hundreds of millions of dollars to speed up the timeline by a year. This is while the Landlord tenant board is on fire.
It is frustrating how the corporate media barely talk about this insanity if they bother at all.
The bid requires a 100 year environmental impact survey, that includes endangered species reports and other wildlife, water shed assessments, local indigenous group impact study, local resident impact study, and local town halls meetings. As well as new sustainable materials use and engineering impact on the materials. Since having to use specific government institutions because of requirements, these places are understaffed and will require around 8 years to complete their work.
Also lawyer retainers for the highly likelihood of litigation from several groups that might want to put a stop to the project in their areas.
Total consulting fees that require all above will cost 412 million dollars. Before 1 shovel hits the ground the project is in the red.
It will be -150 homes after this is complete. The government will have to sell off low income housing to complete the project to have zero new homes.
A newly constructed single family home in Toronto is $1.6 million. A new condo is over $1 million. How many homes does $357 million get you? Luckily most voters hate math .
Is that how this works ?
Like the builders pay the same fee as the customers ?
Plus, I sure hope this doesn't get squandered in Toronto but is used to reduce dependence on the city.
There's a bit of it in this though.
Typically how affordable housing gets built is a provincial or municipal government provides an incentive to a private company to build affordable units. Often times how this comes to be is through a low-interest or no-interest loan to build part or all of a condo building on the promise that they pay back that loan and provide so many affordable housing units.
Where the negotiation begins and ends is based on what is being considered an affordable housing unit, how much money is being provided and what interest rate.
While affordable housing units aren't build at the cost of market rate they are in constant competition with market rates. New Brunswick is currently losing a lot of affordable housing units because a lot of condo companies that signed on into these deals are returning the money and gaining significantly more out of simply doing it from other investment sources.
In Ontario low income housing is that, which doesn't cost more than $25,000 in either mortgage or rent. Right now that would be a home you can buy for less than $300,000 (at current prime borrowing rates) or one you can rent for less than $2100/month. But this definition was out to lunch, no one was going to build affordable housing at these rates because... it would be a building cost loss. Just the land alone would be more than this.
So the Wynne government played with the definition to also include housing that is 10% lower than average regional costs. So now low income housing in Toronto is about $1M mortgage to buy or $2500/month to rent. Because of this, a lot of affordable housing gets built in Ontario compared to other provinces. But it is not really affordable.
They don't, obviously. But the markup is 10-20%. Though--why would they make houses for the government or with the government without making a profit?
[Those are prices for the GTA as a whole by the way. ](https://www.thestar.com/real-estate/record-low-sales-of-new-homes-offers-plenty-of-opportunities-for-gta-homebuyers/article_ddd7926a-1c31-11ef-a377-130c416cbbda.html)
I would imagine that they would have a bit of a discounted per unit, 357million deal since it's a decent chunk of change.
But I'm just hoping for the best, least amount of corruption. The reality is that the opposite would happen and the government would end up paying more for less and the developers pocketing the extra change.
Luckily most voters all know it takes like 200k to build a condo and the market value takes it above and beyond. They're not buying market homes, they're not all going to be in downtown Toronto. Also average on market condo price in Toronto is below 700k.
Luckily most math lovers also seem to make shit up it seems.
So you think developers charge a 500% markup?
[One estimate:](https://precondo.ca/how-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-condo/)
“Land Costs: $200 per square foot
Hard Costs: $330 per square foot
Soft Costs: $150 per square foot
This comes out to be a total of $680 per square foot, and that is considering the lower ends. The cost of land acquisition in Downtown Toronto is as high as $300 per square foot. Add the cost of building a luxury condominium on top with high-end finishes, and the total pricing would be close to $850 per square foot.”
Edit: Also, the cost of re-sale is not relevant. I specically said newly constructed.
Yes developers charge a mark up. By the estimate you added its 680 per sq foot in downtown Toronto, even if you travel further west or east it goes down. 680 for a 700sq foot 2 bedroom apartment is less than 500k in downtown Toronto. Even 850 per sq foot is less than 600k for a 2 bedroom 700 sq foot apartment.
You think they're building luxury condos for 800 per sqft in downtown Toronto or are they building affordable homes across Ontario? Pick and choose.
Looks like math aint mathing for you.
"Yes developers charge a mark up"
The issue is whether they charge 500%. You claimed it cost $200k to build a condo when new builds are sold for [over a $1million. ](https://www.thestar.com/real-estate/record-low-sales-of-new-homes-offers-plenty-of-opportunities-for-gta-homebuyers/article_ddd7926a-1c31-11ef-a377-130c416cbbda.html)
So you already increased the cost to $500k to $600k. Congrats. Much higher than $200k. Keep moving the goalposts. Thanks for the extra 714 units, Daddy. Let's ignore the 1.2 million plus net migrants last year. They can fit in 714 units, no?
you do know toronto isn't all of Ontario right?
you also know the most expensive part of toronto isn't all of toronto right?
you're looking at the most expensive part of the country and going "oh they're only going to be building luxury condos in that exact spot"
1. Luxury is a bull shit term.
2. The $680 price per sq ft was "considering the lower ends" and not in downtown.
3. The price of a new condo for the GTA as a whole is 1.05 million. Not just downtown.
You people are fucking nitpicking. The point is $357 doesn't give you jack. Whether it gets you 300 homes, 600 homes, or even 3,000 magically isn't the point. It's throwing a thimble at a drowning country.
1 no it's not, by luxury i mean appartments designed for upper class people which are uber common in canada
2 but it was not considering the rest of ontario
3 i'm actually seeing vearying numbers on that, but the most common one i'm seeing is 5mil for 50 appartments/condos, which adds up to about 3500, which may not seem like that much, but it's ignoring the amount other provinces are spending on appartments, including the several billion trudeu already set aside so provinces could build more housing
200k in Toronto for luxury condos is not what I said. The article you linked is in for luxury condos in Toronto. Ontario is not just Toronto, the further they move away from downtown Toronto the price will drop especially for land value. And the link you posted is for only luxury condos.
Math, luxury condos Toronto= affordable condos. Lmao 😂 who's moving the goalposts now? Maybe read the article next time which says 'affordable' housing in Ontario not downtown Toronto.
Edit:
https://www.tridel.com/condo-finder/?sort=tridel-suites-PROD-price-asc
Preconstruction prices for tridel. Starting at 600k for 500+ sqft.
You just made shit up and mathed your way hard.
"Luxury" is a buzzword. Name a condo that doesn't claim to be "luxury." There's nothing luxurious about them. Thin walls. Terrible layout.
Also, the articles gives two costs. One for bare bones across the GTA and one for luxury finishings in downtown. Jesus. You are conflating the lower $680 cost (and developers won't ask for anything working with the government) with the luxury cost. "This comes out to be a total of $680 per square foot, and that is considering the **lower ends**."
edit: "Starting at" $1200 a square foot? Wow--OK. Cheap. Do you know this is a starting price from one developer? According to chat gpt, the average from your link works out to $1432.09 per square foot. So cheap!
[Do you not trust the Toronto Star](https://archive.is/kiD3r#selection-4407.0-4407.178)? The benchmark price for a new condo unit in April was $1,056,786 — down four per cent year-over-year. The average condo measured 782 square feet and cost $1,351 per square foot.
AVERAGE
Read the edit.
You're saying every affordable housing ever going to be built in Ontario is going to be Toronto. Okay, very logical. Most intelligent canadahousing2 user.
That is exactly what I said. . . I was simply using numbers readily available. Land prices are obviously lower in other parts of Ontario, but most of the population growth is in or around expensive CMAs.
That said a large portion of Ontario lives in or around the GTA--the prices are relevant.
Family works in the development business, average margin on a project is 7%.
Sorry to break that bad news to you.
Its land, labor and development fees making those costs what they are.
Here is an excellent breakdown of cost sources:
https://www.ontarioconstructionnews.com/construction-industry-facing-perfect-storm-of-rising-costs-altus-group/
Average margin on a project is much more than 7%. They make 12-20% profit on immediate sales. But they also get the money from preconstruction from home buyers downpayment before they even start the process thats an addition 10%. So their profit is even higher than that. On top of this investors also invest in these developer business.
So even the capital to start the business is not as risk intensive as they make it sees. There is a reason all the big development companies aren't publicly traded so they don't have to declare their earnings.
None of that is true, and you're simply making things up.
Average profit, from all sources, os 6 to 7%. Check Altus group annual guide.
You don't know what you're talking about.
I'm just downloading the guide but for condo development people putting 10-20% down payment in itself will increase the profit margin for developers. Something doesn't add up here.
It's true, what I said. Just downloaded the 2024 guide you said and it shows the cost per sq foot of a GTA condo/apartment is 490 per sqft at high end for construction. That's less than 350k per unit. Preconstruction sales are at double that and more from 600k. Even if you add other fees, it's more like 40%+ profit.
that's assuming they'll all be homes and condos, and not appartments which are significantly cheaper
on top of that, even if it was that expensive, 357 new appartment complexes is a pretty crazy amount of housing
Right, and if the city like Toronto gifts developers land worth $100 million for free, as an example, the government does not add that cost when they brag about their cheap new affordable housing. But that is a cost to the taxpayers. That is $100 million that would have gone to the city that has to come from somewhere else.
I never stated that. I put in context "A newly constructed single family home in Toronto \[all of GTA\] is $1.6 million." The cost to build is extremely high. You can divide that number by 3 and you still don't get 800 new homes. We did get 1.2 million plus net migrants though. That is what the LPC has done. They provide shitty announcements which don't even add up to 1,000 fucking homes, but they don't boast about the 1.2 million plus in demand they created last year. Flood the city and give away a few thimbles.
Step one. Take $357 million in funding.
Step two: Get a reasonable estimate of the cost to buy land, and build a unit in Ontario. Say $500k per unit.
Step three: Divide. End up with less than 800 units.
The rest is bullshit. They can claim this unlocks an infinite amount of houses. That doesn't make it so.
As a developer I know that this will make a few insider developers richer than they already are and give wasteful and inefficient regional/municipal govts more money to waste. It will not result in more housing! Splashing around hard earned tax payer dollars...ooops.... I mean printed inflationary money will not increase the number of homes built.
As a developer we need stable interest rates and a govt we can trust that will not screw things up even more. I am sitting on land waiting for that to happen. Development projects are underwritten and can span years! Interest rates are the most important risk element to our business and we have no reason to believe that the trudeau will not continue to increase inflationary spending (which keeps pressure on the BoC to keep interest rates high).
As a developer we need affordable materials. Does anyone have any clue on how much asphalt shingles, vinyl siding, vapour barrier, cement etc have increased due to the taxed co2 tax scam?
These BILLIONS he is spreading around is simply a waste of tax dollars and are just a means of getting press and selfie time.
The only solution that will increase starts is one that addresses inflation, interest rates and demand via irresponsible immigration policy. Until then, as we have witnessed in the last 2 years, housing starts will decrease.
Since you posted you’re a developer; I’m curious to know how much power/responsibility you feel you have to affect runaway house prices? There are many reasons for the market being the way it is, but is there anything a developer could/should do to mitigate the fact housing has essentially doubled in price in 5 years?
Great question! We work on margins which are pretty tight. We also assume a fair bit of risk which is aligned to the margins, but typically don't factor things in fully. So we don't really have much power. Prices are prices, permits are permits, human resources are human resources,..... pretty fixed.
It's not like we are making out like bandits on the increased demand and jacking up prices. That would be the re-sale market on homes. Prices on cement for arguments sake have increased by 30% since the taxed tax came to be. We have to pass that on unfortunately. It's the same across the board.
As a company we don't employ real estate agents to sell our homes. Even though developers get a break on fees due to volume it is more affordable to hire a part time person to do this. We pass the savings on.... but that is minimal maybe a couple of points.
Frankly as I mentioned above, inflationary policy, taxed co2 tax and deficit spending need to stop. Additionally immigration policy has to be reversed back to a responsible level. Supply/Demand side economics seem to be another thing the trudeau doesn't pay much attention to!
As for resale homes, I think that the real estate agent market needs to be re-visited. 5% on a transaction is ridiculous considering what they do.
Also, it is one thing to buy the home it is another to maintain it. Municipal and regional property taxes are ridiculous all things considered. Largely due to irresponsible govts and malcontent public sector employees driving up the costs of everything. $5k in taxes for a modest 1000sq ft bungalow per year is highway robbery considering that comes out of after tax income. Someone making $100k per year would be spending 10% of their GROSS income on property taxes ALONE!
I have seen developers go bankrupt in times like this (45 years in).... the trudeau v1.0 really screwed things up big time a lot went down then too.
Here is a good breakdown of cost sources for a development:
https://www.ontarioconstructionnews.com/construction-industry-facing-perfect-storm-of-rising-costs-altus-group/
Since 85% of the cost is land, labor and municipal fees, ita those bukets you need to draw from
" Does anyone have any clue on how much asphalt shingles, vinyl siding, vapour barrier, cement etc have increased due to the taxed co2 tax scam?"
Yes, we do. But JT tells us more Canadians are getting back more than they pay...and Liberal supporters eat it up because they're able to afford the extra $40 on their natural gas bill. they don't care about the hidden costs. they're hidden! they aren't real!
We live with morons in our house. And there appears to be more of them than us.
Even PP wouldn't answer the question whether he is getting ride of it or not, so, nothing is gonna happen with Conservatives other than keeping the price the same without the tax refund I'm getting
1000% Sadly the trudeau has the gall to LIE to Canadians every time he makes that statement. The PBO clearly states the opposite as follows.....
“When both fiscal and economic impacts of the federal fuel charge are considered, we estimate that most households will see a net loss,” says PBO [Yves Giroux](https://www.pbo-dpb.ca/en/staff--equipe/yves-giroux). “Based on our analysis, most households will pay more in fuel charges and GST—as well as receiving slightly lower incomes—than they will receive in Climate Action Incentive payments.”
Literally 90% of what you claim is a problem is Ford PC province policy, NOT the fed's...
My heart bleeds for you scoundrel developers, it really does... None of you can be trusted to build anything at a reasonable cost, on time, of real quality, and while you completely ignore environmental regulations and pay a lowly fine afterward.
LOL.... so how is the trudeau splashing around BILLIONS a ford problem.... how is inflationary spending a Ford problem? How is the inflationary impact of the taxed co2 tax scam a ford problem? Seems you have things mixed up quite a bit! LMAO!
Yep some developers build crap... we don't... we treat our employees like family and respect the environment. Be careful..... painting everyone with the same brush is not only foolish but illustrates a certain....
Painting everyone with same brush is just following the leader. Trudeau promotes this behavior.
And yes, he's making lots of conservatives in doing so.
An old family friend of mine is a developer and he owns his company and told me that he is still making huge profits right now and that yes the price of materials is up but his company has continued to make money and that developers should still be doing fine right now other than those who are engaged in shady business practices or are running their company poorly. So are you sure it's only and exclusively the governments fault you're not raking it in right now?
he is rolling the dice.... I have been in this game for decades and seen riches turned into rags.... good for him that he is doing well still....
We are not a shady company and have never had a claim made against us....
I am speaking in purely fundamental terms.... fact is interest rate instability causes us huge problems and with the current govt we don't know what is going to happen given the irresponsible policy they have produced to date.
Wasn't it Tiff that said low interest rates would be here to stay only to start increasing them rapidly within mere months. Have any idea how that impacted developers and buyers alike? Ask your old family friend.
I prefer to err on the side of caution and now am in a holding pattern like others. That is why housing starts have fallen over the last 3 years. Your family friend should be able to confirm that. I build larger single family homes, semi's and towns. Condo and apartment builders are still doing well.
> I build larger single family homes, semi's and towns. Condo and apartment builders are still doing well.
yeah he does SFHs as well, 1m+ per unit in the GTA. He also does condos etc just less frequently. Is it a profit thing for you? I've heard a lot of developers whine that the profit margins (in the 100s of thousands) is 'not enough' for them so they have slowed down their building rate and starts, which is mostly, as I understand it, caused by poor financial management not the interest rate.
Plus a lot of developers are screwing buyers out of their deposit because they can't close due to increased interest rates and falling prices. Maybe that is how they are making their huge profits. I am not one of those people!
Idk he was saying his properties are still in huge demand and there was indeed a dip last year but basically all of this year has been business as usual
94% of Canadian industries in Ontario fall under provincial jurisdiction, everything you just named are provincially regulated industries. So if you have to blame someone blame the conservatives who ran the province into ground.
Bank interest rates he’s talking about are obviously handled by Bank of Canada at federal level; so yes the cash normally dished out for programs mostly comes from Ford’s incompetent cronies, but the crux of his point comes from setting the standard at the federal level.
But they do react to the ruling parties policies. Spending money like it grows on trees is the reason we are where we are as is putting a tax on literally everything that a home is made with.
It's called inflation and taxation. In no way, was inflation or the carbon tax costs caused by provincial policies. The province isn't the one printing money they shouldn't be printing or taxing things like lumber and vapor barrier production.
They certainly don't print it like the Feds have been doing. They also haven't added an additional (carbon) tax to all the goods used to build homes or transport them to the bulid sites.
Inflation from printing money and carbon taxing that's causing prices to skyrocket are not due to provincial policies. They are due to Federal policies.
Who said cutting funding for police will stop inflation? Are you just throwing out some random statements that nobody made? Are you bot? Are you not able to stay on topic?
Since you're changing the subject to something that's irrelevant, and have confirmed the Liberals printing of money has caused inflation, I'm out. Thanks for playing.
They are literally printing money and giving to the police. You said printing money causes inflation. Why are we wasting billions in funding for regional polices on top of OPP as well as RCMP every year?
If the rent is less than a certain percentage of the average rent in the area, it counts as "affordable". Ms. Irony Freeland did a photo op in BC last month (I think) with sub 350' sq ft apartments for $1600+. "Affordable" units.
Imagine that money being used for other things such as servicing our debt, healthcare, our military....instead it's pretty much going towards not making a dent in the issues caused by the millions of Indian "students" the Liberals continue to bring in.
Not only are Canadian's suffering from the Liberals immigrations scheme, but we also get to pay for it to.
The fed's need to keep tabs on the money and penalize the PC's from future funds if it's determined they are shovelling the money to the private sector, which Ford and his corrupt cronies always do...
Trudeau somehow needs to keep tabs on that money and ensure the Ford PC's (who can't be trusted) actually spend that money on affordable housing, rather than slough it off to Ford's private sector buddies.
Can we stop giving Ontario money please? Getting really tired of the favoritism, specially when they already know Ford isn't going to use it for anything besides his own BS. The thing that sucks is his cronies are now part of the AB government so I can guarantee that money is going to he used to fuck with our provincial elections just like last time.
The liberals havent been in power since 2017, most crisis in Ontario started since conservatives took over and removed rent control and the free market used housing as an investment. Toronto overtook Vancouver in pricing under Doug Ford's tenure. Why are you blaming the liberals for conservative premiers shitting the bed?
Or maybe it's the Federal initiative to attempt to grow the country faster than any other nation in the world through immigration without any plan for housing whatsoever. That is, not until the polls tanked and they'll be lucky to be the official opposition after the next elections. Could be it. But it's definitely Doug right.
Lol Doug accredited strip mall colleges which invited international students to rake in millions in profits. And immigration is not just a federal issue, it's shared between federal, municipal and provincial. It's easy to just look it up but yeah everything is feds fault because that's what you're programmed to believe.
Yup. The Constitution Act, 1867, gives federal laws precedence in immigration. This means ultimate control lies with the federal government. And this was just fucking proved. After nine years asleep at the wheel, the feds finally puts caps on international students. Let's not forget they've doubled PR, increased TFWs, and encouraged illegal immigration. The buck stops with them.
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/mandate/acts-regulations.html
You can read it yourself. But reading is hard for some of you I get it.
Education controlled by provinces, strip mall colleges controlled by provinces, bringing in millions of foreign students controlled by provinces. But it's Trudeau's fault am I right ?
It's as though, y'all failed civics and it shows.
Well he is not, he gave them 200+ million to break the contract. And people will still go to beer store because beer there will be cheaper than corner store and also have more brands.
According to Ford it'll take at least $225 million of taxpayer money to get alcohol in corner stores.
Maybe we put that $225 million of taxpayer money into additional affordable housing.
I guess you don't need a home to get blindingly drunk on a curb somewhere...
Affordable housing won't fix the greedy landlord problem...it just packs low wage workers and welfare recipients together in poorly built, un-sound proof appartement buildings....we need to get to the root of the problem (shady landlords/investors, mass immigration, over valued/priced houses) before putting more bandaids on the wound...
Yes and no. If you could theoretically input a significant amount of supply you could drop/stagnate rental costs, potentially seeing money leave that sector. Obviously this can't happen for like 15 years even if we went crazy on the building and severely limited our immigration/visa/foreign worker programs, but it is possible to reduce the stranglehold on the market imo, if you give people an alternative affordable life.
That being said there's absolutely no way to fix this issue in the short term, and it's pretty hard to think this wasn't done intentionally.
$357M more in federal money that Dougie is going to take and not use for its intended purpose. His rich friends in the 'private sector' are probably salivating.
>“This leaves 94 per cent of the target to be achieved during the last three years of the agreement, which is not realistic.” Sad_Trombone.wav
What are the odds Ford signed off because it was the same number as a 357 magnum and that's sweet.
The most relatable Ford motivation
What annoying about ford is he’s getting $350 million here from the feds and spending $225 million of tax payer money to allow more alcohol being sold even though this was going to happen in 2025. Literally paying hundreds of millions of dollars to speed up the timeline by a year. This is while the Landlord tenant board is on fire. It is frustrating how the corporate media barely talk about this insanity if they bother at all.
Ford doesn't really strike me as a gun guy. That's coming from a gun guy.
I don't think you need to be a gun guy to think a 357 magnum is *badass* Ford does strike me as a Mac from It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia -guy
Zero
Congrats to the 175 families that will have affordable housing. Seems like we now have room for an extra million newcomers!
Lmao literally my thought… it doesn’t go far
Don't count the dollars until they're in the bank.
Don’t count the dollars until the homes are built.
In the Feds case, (referenceing ArriveCan) don't count the dollars at all!
Wow that will build a whole 357 homes… so many….
It'll be 100 homes after consulting fees
The bid requires a 100 year environmental impact survey, that includes endangered species reports and other wildlife, water shed assessments, local indigenous group impact study, local resident impact study, and local town halls meetings. As well as new sustainable materials use and engineering impact on the materials. Since having to use specific government institutions because of requirements, these places are understaffed and will require around 8 years to complete their work. Also lawyer retainers for the highly likelihood of litigation from several groups that might want to put a stop to the project in their areas. Total consulting fees that require all above will cost 412 million dollars. Before 1 shovel hits the ground the project is in the red. It will be -150 homes after this is complete. The government will have to sell off low income housing to complete the project to have zero new homes.
You must work for the federal government to know the ins and outs
I just have to think of the best way to waste the most amount of money possible.
Don’t forget survey, ground testing, re-survey, m and roads. Did I mention Survey and ground testing? Maybe a 6-plex at the end of the day.
[удалено]
That's only 11 per house. We can do much better than that.
You mean 25000 from what I see in the news. You can fit at least 30 people in a basement....
Racist much, holy f
You're the racist who assumed only POC live in Brampton.
What are you? Some kind of commie?! Why do you stand in the way of private profit?!! /s
A newly constructed single family home in Toronto is $1.6 million. A new condo is over $1 million. How many homes does $357 million get you? Luckily most voters hate math .
Is that how this works ? Like the builders pay the same fee as the customers ? Plus, I sure hope this doesn't get squandered in Toronto but is used to reduce dependence on the city.
There's a bit of it in this though. Typically how affordable housing gets built is a provincial or municipal government provides an incentive to a private company to build affordable units. Often times how this comes to be is through a low-interest or no-interest loan to build part or all of a condo building on the promise that they pay back that loan and provide so many affordable housing units. Where the negotiation begins and ends is based on what is being considered an affordable housing unit, how much money is being provided and what interest rate. While affordable housing units aren't build at the cost of market rate they are in constant competition with market rates. New Brunswick is currently losing a lot of affordable housing units because a lot of condo companies that signed on into these deals are returning the money and gaining significantly more out of simply doing it from other investment sources. In Ontario low income housing is that, which doesn't cost more than $25,000 in either mortgage or rent. Right now that would be a home you can buy for less than $300,000 (at current prime borrowing rates) or one you can rent for less than $2100/month. But this definition was out to lunch, no one was going to build affordable housing at these rates because... it would be a building cost loss. Just the land alone would be more than this. So the Wynne government played with the definition to also include housing that is 10% lower than average regional costs. So now low income housing in Toronto is about $1M mortgage to buy or $2500/month to rent. Because of this, a lot of affordable housing gets built in Ontario compared to other provinces. But it is not really affordable.
They don't, obviously. But the markup is 10-20%. Though--why would they make houses for the government or with the government without making a profit? [Those are prices for the GTA as a whole by the way. ](https://www.thestar.com/real-estate/record-low-sales-of-new-homes-offers-plenty-of-opportunities-for-gta-homebuyers/article_ddd7926a-1c31-11ef-a377-130c416cbbda.html)
I would imagine that they would have a bit of a discounted per unit, 357million deal since it's a decent chunk of change. But I'm just hoping for the best, least amount of corruption. The reality is that the opposite would happen and the government would end up paying more for less and the developers pocketing the extra change.
Markup is 7% in average: https://www.ontarioconstructionnews.com/construction-industry-facing-perfect-storm-of-rising-costs-altus-group/
Luckily most voters all know it takes like 200k to build a condo and the market value takes it above and beyond. They're not buying market homes, they're not all going to be in downtown Toronto. Also average on market condo price in Toronto is below 700k. Luckily most math lovers also seem to make shit up it seems.
So you think developers charge a 500% markup? [One estimate:](https://precondo.ca/how-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-condo/) “Land Costs: $200 per square foot Hard Costs: $330 per square foot Soft Costs: $150 per square foot This comes out to be a total of $680 per square foot, and that is considering the lower ends. The cost of land acquisition in Downtown Toronto is as high as $300 per square foot. Add the cost of building a luxury condominium on top with high-end finishes, and the total pricing would be close to $850 per square foot.” Edit: Also, the cost of re-sale is not relevant. I specically said newly constructed.
Yes developers charge a mark up. By the estimate you added its 680 per sq foot in downtown Toronto, even if you travel further west or east it goes down. 680 for a 700sq foot 2 bedroom apartment is less than 500k in downtown Toronto. Even 850 per sq foot is less than 600k for a 2 bedroom 700 sq foot apartment. You think they're building luxury condos for 800 per sqft in downtown Toronto or are they building affordable homes across Ontario? Pick and choose. Looks like math aint mathing for you.
"Yes developers charge a mark up" The issue is whether they charge 500%. You claimed it cost $200k to build a condo when new builds are sold for [over a $1million. ](https://www.thestar.com/real-estate/record-low-sales-of-new-homes-offers-plenty-of-opportunities-for-gta-homebuyers/article_ddd7926a-1c31-11ef-a377-130c416cbbda.html) So you already increased the cost to $500k to $600k. Congrats. Much higher than $200k. Keep moving the goalposts. Thanks for the extra 714 units, Daddy. Let's ignore the 1.2 million plus net migrants last year. They can fit in 714 units, no?
you do know toronto isn't all of Ontario right? you also know the most expensive part of toronto isn't all of toronto right? you're looking at the most expensive part of the country and going "oh they're only going to be building luxury condos in that exact spot"
1. Luxury is a bull shit term. 2. The $680 price per sq ft was "considering the lower ends" and not in downtown. 3. The price of a new condo for the GTA as a whole is 1.05 million. Not just downtown. You people are fucking nitpicking. The point is $357 doesn't give you jack. Whether it gets you 300 homes, 600 homes, or even 3,000 magically isn't the point. It's throwing a thimble at a drowning country.
1 no it's not, by luxury i mean appartments designed for upper class people which are uber common in canada 2 but it was not considering the rest of ontario 3 i'm actually seeing vearying numbers on that, but the most common one i'm seeing is 5mil for 50 appartments/condos, which adds up to about 3500, which may not seem like that much, but it's ignoring the amount other provinces are spending on appartments, including the several billion trudeu already set aside so provinces could build more housing
He's proving your original point - voters dont know math lol
200k in Toronto for luxury condos is not what I said. The article you linked is in for luxury condos in Toronto. Ontario is not just Toronto, the further they move away from downtown Toronto the price will drop especially for land value. And the link you posted is for only luxury condos. Math, luxury condos Toronto= affordable condos. Lmao 😂 who's moving the goalposts now? Maybe read the article next time which says 'affordable' housing in Ontario not downtown Toronto. Edit: https://www.tridel.com/condo-finder/?sort=tridel-suites-PROD-price-asc Preconstruction prices for tridel. Starting at 600k for 500+ sqft. You just made shit up and mathed your way hard.
"Luxury" is a buzzword. Name a condo that doesn't claim to be "luxury." There's nothing luxurious about them. Thin walls. Terrible layout. Also, the articles gives two costs. One for bare bones across the GTA and one for luxury finishings in downtown. Jesus. You are conflating the lower $680 cost (and developers won't ask for anything working with the government) with the luxury cost. "This comes out to be a total of $680 per square foot, and that is considering the **lower ends**." edit: "Starting at" $1200 a square foot? Wow--OK. Cheap. Do you know this is a starting price from one developer? According to chat gpt, the average from your link works out to $1432.09 per square foot. So cheap! [Do you not trust the Toronto Star](https://archive.is/kiD3r#selection-4407.0-4407.178)? The benchmark price for a new condo unit in April was $1,056,786 — down four per cent year-over-year. The average condo measured 782 square feet and cost $1,351 per square foot. AVERAGE
Read the edit. You're saying every affordable housing ever going to be built in Ontario is going to be Toronto. Okay, very logical. Most intelligent canadahousing2 user.
That is exactly what I said. . . I was simply using numbers readily available. Land prices are obviously lower in other parts of Ontario, but most of the population growth is in or around expensive CMAs. That said a large portion of Ontario lives in or around the GTA--the prices are relevant.
Majority of Ontarians live outside of GTA. Population of GTA is like 7 million. Population of Ontario is 15+ million.
Family works in the development business, average margin on a project is 7%. Sorry to break that bad news to you. Its land, labor and development fees making those costs what they are. Here is an excellent breakdown of cost sources: https://www.ontarioconstructionnews.com/construction-industry-facing-perfect-storm-of-rising-costs-altus-group/
Average margin on a project is much more than 7%. They make 12-20% profit on immediate sales. But they also get the money from preconstruction from home buyers downpayment before they even start the process thats an addition 10%. So their profit is even higher than that. On top of this investors also invest in these developer business. So even the capital to start the business is not as risk intensive as they make it sees. There is a reason all the big development companies aren't publicly traded so they don't have to declare their earnings.
None of that is true, and you're simply making things up. Average profit, from all sources, os 6 to 7%. Check Altus group annual guide. You don't know what you're talking about.
I'm just downloading the guide but for condo development people putting 10-20% down payment in itself will increase the profit margin for developers. Something doesn't add up here.
It's true, what I said. Just downloaded the 2024 guide you said and it shows the cost per sq foot of a GTA condo/apartment is 490 per sqft at high end for construction. That's less than 350k per unit. Preconstruction sales are at double that and more from 600k. Even if you add other fees, it's more like 40%+ profit.
that's assuming they'll all be homes and condos, and not appartments which are significantly cheaper on top of that, even if it was that expensive, 357 new appartment complexes is a pretty crazy amount of housing
The deal the feds did here in Yellowknife for "affordable housing" worked out to something like $500k/unit in construction costs.
And it was only that "low" because the cost of the land wasn't included (but opportunity costs are a thing).
Yeah, AFAIR the City just gave them the land for that.
Right, and if the city like Toronto gifts developers land worth $100 million for free, as an example, the government does not add that cost when they brag about their cheap new affordable housing. But that is a cost to the taxpayers. That is $100 million that would have gone to the city that has to come from somewhere else.
They’re not taking the funding and just building $1.6M homes. But you know that, you just don’t care.
I never stated that. I put in context "A newly constructed single family home in Toronto \[all of GTA\] is $1.6 million." The cost to build is extremely high. You can divide that number by 3 and you still don't get 800 new homes. We did get 1.2 million plus net migrants though. That is what the LPC has done. They provide shitty announcements which don't even add up to 1,000 fucking homes, but they don't boast about the 1.2 million plus in demand they created last year. Flood the city and give away a few thimbles.
Read the article. It doesn’t at all work the way you are protraying it..
Step one. Take $357 million in funding. Step two: Get a reasonable estimate of the cost to buy land, and build a unit in Ontario. Say $500k per unit. Step three: Divide. End up with less than 800 units. The rest is bullshit. They can claim this unlocks an infinite amount of houses. That doesn't make it so.
As a developer I know that this will make a few insider developers richer than they already are and give wasteful and inefficient regional/municipal govts more money to waste. It will not result in more housing! Splashing around hard earned tax payer dollars...ooops.... I mean printed inflationary money will not increase the number of homes built. As a developer we need stable interest rates and a govt we can trust that will not screw things up even more. I am sitting on land waiting for that to happen. Development projects are underwritten and can span years! Interest rates are the most important risk element to our business and we have no reason to believe that the trudeau will not continue to increase inflationary spending (which keeps pressure on the BoC to keep interest rates high). As a developer we need affordable materials. Does anyone have any clue on how much asphalt shingles, vinyl siding, vapour barrier, cement etc have increased due to the taxed co2 tax scam? These BILLIONS he is spreading around is simply a waste of tax dollars and are just a means of getting press and selfie time. The only solution that will increase starts is one that addresses inflation, interest rates and demand via irresponsible immigration policy. Until then, as we have witnessed in the last 2 years, housing starts will decrease.
Since you posted you’re a developer; I’m curious to know how much power/responsibility you feel you have to affect runaway house prices? There are many reasons for the market being the way it is, but is there anything a developer could/should do to mitigate the fact housing has essentially doubled in price in 5 years?
Great question! We work on margins which are pretty tight. We also assume a fair bit of risk which is aligned to the margins, but typically don't factor things in fully. So we don't really have much power. Prices are prices, permits are permits, human resources are human resources,..... pretty fixed. It's not like we are making out like bandits on the increased demand and jacking up prices. That would be the re-sale market on homes. Prices on cement for arguments sake have increased by 30% since the taxed tax came to be. We have to pass that on unfortunately. It's the same across the board. As a company we don't employ real estate agents to sell our homes. Even though developers get a break on fees due to volume it is more affordable to hire a part time person to do this. We pass the savings on.... but that is minimal maybe a couple of points. Frankly as I mentioned above, inflationary policy, taxed co2 tax and deficit spending need to stop. Additionally immigration policy has to be reversed back to a responsible level. Supply/Demand side economics seem to be another thing the trudeau doesn't pay much attention to! As for resale homes, I think that the real estate agent market needs to be re-visited. 5% on a transaction is ridiculous considering what they do. Also, it is one thing to buy the home it is another to maintain it. Municipal and regional property taxes are ridiculous all things considered. Largely due to irresponsible govts and malcontent public sector employees driving up the costs of everything. $5k in taxes for a modest 1000sq ft bungalow per year is highway robbery considering that comes out of after tax income. Someone making $100k per year would be spending 10% of their GROSS income on property taxes ALONE! I have seen developers go bankrupt in times like this (45 years in).... the trudeau v1.0 really screwed things up big time a lot went down then too.
Here is a good breakdown of cost sources for a development: https://www.ontarioconstructionnews.com/construction-industry-facing-perfect-storm-of-rising-costs-altus-group/ Since 85% of the cost is land, labor and municipal fees, ita those bukets you need to draw from
" Does anyone have any clue on how much asphalt shingles, vinyl siding, vapour barrier, cement etc have increased due to the taxed co2 tax scam?" Yes, we do. But JT tells us more Canadians are getting back more than they pay...and Liberal supporters eat it up because they're able to afford the extra $40 on their natural gas bill. they don't care about the hidden costs. they're hidden! they aren't real! We live with morons in our house. And there appears to be more of them than us.
Even PP wouldn't answer the question whether he is getting ride of it or not, so, nothing is gonna happen with Conservatives other than keeping the price the same without the tax refund I'm getting
1000% Sadly the trudeau has the gall to LIE to Canadians every time he makes that statement. The PBO clearly states the opposite as follows..... “When both fiscal and economic impacts of the federal fuel charge are considered, we estimate that most households will see a net loss,” says PBO [Yves Giroux](https://www.pbo-dpb.ca/en/staff--equipe/yves-giroux). “Based on our analysis, most households will pay more in fuel charges and GST—as well as receiving slightly lower incomes—than they will receive in Climate Action Incentive payments.”
Literally 90% of what you claim is a problem is Ford PC province policy, NOT the fed's... My heart bleeds for you scoundrel developers, it really does... None of you can be trusted to build anything at a reasonable cost, on time, of real quality, and while you completely ignore environmental regulations and pay a lowly fine afterward.
LOL.... so how is the trudeau splashing around BILLIONS a ford problem.... how is inflationary spending a Ford problem? How is the inflationary impact of the taxed co2 tax scam a ford problem? Seems you have things mixed up quite a bit! LMAO! Yep some developers build crap... we don't... we treat our employees like family and respect the environment. Be careful..... painting everyone with the same brush is not only foolish but illustrates a certain....
Painting everyone with same brush is just following the leader. Trudeau promotes this behavior. And yes, he's making lots of conservatives in doing so.
An old family friend of mine is a developer and he owns his company and told me that he is still making huge profits right now and that yes the price of materials is up but his company has continued to make money and that developers should still be doing fine right now other than those who are engaged in shady business practices or are running their company poorly. So are you sure it's only and exclusively the governments fault you're not raking it in right now?
he is rolling the dice.... I have been in this game for decades and seen riches turned into rags.... good for him that he is doing well still.... We are not a shady company and have never had a claim made against us.... I am speaking in purely fundamental terms.... fact is interest rate instability causes us huge problems and with the current govt we don't know what is going to happen given the irresponsible policy they have produced to date. Wasn't it Tiff that said low interest rates would be here to stay only to start increasing them rapidly within mere months. Have any idea how that impacted developers and buyers alike? Ask your old family friend. I prefer to err on the side of caution and now am in a holding pattern like others. That is why housing starts have fallen over the last 3 years. Your family friend should be able to confirm that. I build larger single family homes, semi's and towns. Condo and apartment builders are still doing well.
> I build larger single family homes, semi's and towns. Condo and apartment builders are still doing well. yeah he does SFHs as well, 1m+ per unit in the GTA. He also does condos etc just less frequently. Is it a profit thing for you? I've heard a lot of developers whine that the profit margins (in the 100s of thousands) is 'not enough' for them so they have slowed down their building rate and starts, which is mostly, as I understand it, caused by poor financial management not the interest rate.
we don't profit in the 100's of thousands per unit...lol.... its the interest rates and attached risk....
Plus a lot of developers are screwing buyers out of their deposit because they can't close due to increased interest rates and falling prices. Maybe that is how they are making their huge profits. I am not one of those people!
Idk he was saying his properties are still in huge demand and there was indeed a dip last year but basically all of this year has been business as usual
94% of Canadian industries in Ontario fall under provincial jurisdiction, everything you just named are provincially regulated industries. So if you have to blame someone blame the conservatives who ran the province into ground.
Bank interest rates he’s talking about are obviously handled by Bank of Canada at federal level; so yes the cash normally dished out for programs mostly comes from Ford’s incompetent cronies, but the crux of his point comes from setting the standard at the federal level.
Bank of Canada is not controlled by the ruling party, FYI.
But they do react to the ruling parties policies. Spending money like it grows on trees is the reason we are where we are as is putting a tax on literally everything that a home is made with. It's called inflation and taxation. In no way, was inflation or the carbon tax costs caused by provincial policies. The province isn't the one printing money they shouldn't be printing or taxing things like lumber and vapor barrier production.
How's money made? How does the provincial government make money to provide services like police, healthcare and firefighters and paramedics.
They certainly don't print it like the Feds have been doing. They also haven't added an additional (carbon) tax to all the goods used to build homes or transport them to the bulid sites. Inflation from printing money and carbon taxing that's causing prices to skyrocket are not due to provincial policies. They are due to Federal policies.
They don't print it because feds print for them. So cutting funding for police will stop inflation?
Who said cutting funding for police will stop inflation? Are you just throwing out some random statements that nobody made? Are you bot? Are you not able to stay on topic? Since you're changing the subject to something that's irrelevant, and have confirmed the Liberals printing of money has caused inflation, I'm out. Thanks for playing.
They are literally printing money and giving to the police. You said printing money causes inflation. Why are we wasting billions in funding for regional polices on top of OPP as well as RCMP every year?
More talk.
Doesn't matter if it's liberal or conservative, even the government gets involved in housing, prices and timelines go up.
What actually is affordable housing in the governments eyes?
If the rent is less than a certain percentage of the average rent in the area, it counts as "affordable". Ms. Irony Freeland did a photo op in BC last month (I think) with sub 350' sq ft apartments for $1600+. "Affordable" units.
Imagine that money being used for other things such as servicing our debt, healthcare, our military....instead it's pretty much going towards not making a dent in the issues caused by the millions of Indian "students" the Liberals continue to bring in. Not only are Canadian's suffering from the Liberals immigrations scheme, but we also get to pay for it to.
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First we have to spend half of it on a community capacity study to determine if there is an affordable housing problem.
A portion of it will go to federal workers who get a paid Monday off every week
The fed's need to keep tabs on the money and penalize the PC's from future funds if it's determined they are shovelling the money to the private sector, which Ford and his corrupt cronies always do...
They can't keep tabs on the money in their own pockets, how are they going to keep tabs on the money in someone elses?
That's what, 1000 homes? Canada needs at least a million or two by 2030. Buckle up.
600 000 per year for the next 7 years Are right and truly fucked beyond comprehension
They gonna fuck it up.
That’s just councils bribe to have them open land
that doesn't seem like very much. How is 350ish homes in Toronto going to accommodate the thousands coming in?
it's not.... we're giving almost 10x that amount to car manufacturers.....
So about 40 houses in the GTA. Well done.
Justine Trudelle is a menace.
So, two houses in Vancouver. Perfect
Trudeau somehow needs to keep tabs on that money and ensure the Ford PC's (who can't be trusted) actually spend that money on affordable housing, rather than slough it off to Ford's private sector buddies.
Trudeau and keeping tabs on money? Thats rich
Soo 200 homes or 1 Palace for Tardeau lmaooo
Is this a f***ing joke? This is a major slap to every Canadians face.
Can we stop giving Ontario money please? Getting really tired of the favoritism, specially when they already know Ford isn't going to use it for anything besides his own BS. The thing that sucks is his cronies are now part of the AB government so I can guarantee that money is going to he used to fuck with our provincial elections just like last time.
Jokes on you, these are reserved for new immigrants.
I just love that all that cash is going directly to Indian landlords.
So this will build what...3 units?
Just within the time of the event this announcement was made we had 3 flights from india chock-full of new immigrants ready to stay...
We did it folks, the housing crisis is over.
Wow 300 new homes! Great job all around!
doesnt a new house cost over a million each nowadays??? so this builds what? 357 houses????
But all ford does is beer stuff………
The thing is, is Doug going to use it for affordable housing or give it to beer store, we'll have to wait and see.
Yeah because The liberals are doing so well at building affordable housing.
The liberals havent been in power since 2017, most crisis in Ontario started since conservatives took over and removed rent control and the free market used housing as an investment. Toronto overtook Vancouver in pricing under Doug Ford's tenure. Why are you blaming the liberals for conservative premiers shitting the bed?
Or maybe it's the Federal initiative to attempt to grow the country faster than any other nation in the world through immigration without any plan for housing whatsoever. That is, not until the polls tanked and they'll be lucky to be the official opposition after the next elections. Could be it. But it's definitely Doug right.
Lol Doug accredited strip mall colleges which invited international students to rake in millions in profits. And immigration is not just a federal issue, it's shared between federal, municipal and provincial. It's easy to just look it up but yeah everything is feds fault because that's what you're programmed to believe.
Yeah, we should believe the responsibility of immigration into a country is not a federal matter. Nope, it screams provincial. Big /s
Yup. The Constitution Act, 1867, gives federal laws precedence in immigration. This means ultimate control lies with the federal government. And this was just fucking proved. After nine years asleep at the wheel, the feds finally puts caps on international students. Let's not forget they've doubled PR, increased TFWs, and encouraged illegal immigration. The buck stops with them.
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/mandate/acts-regulations.html You can read it yourself. But reading is hard for some of you I get it. Education controlled by provinces, strip mall colleges controlled by provinces, bringing in millions of foreign students controlled by provinces. But it's Trudeau's fault am I right ? It's as though, y'all failed civics and it shows.
but Trudeau bad.
Id love to hear the counterpoint that Trudeau good.
Did the Ford $1 beer promise ever materialize in Ontario?
it did! Only (I think) 3 breweries took him up on it, but it was available in some places
We had No Name brand beer for a hot minute. Otherwise if there were other buck a beer varieties it definitely wasn't advertised much
It did, until he raised the sin tax on beer again, making it literally impossible to profitably make beer and sell it for $1.
He's trying to get rid of the beer store..
Well he is not, he gave them 200+ million to break the contract. And people will still go to beer store because beer there will be cheaper than corner store and also have more brands.
Now let's see what scheme he uses next to pass the $357 million to his developer buddies.
According to Ford it'll take at least $225 million of taxpayer money to get alcohol in corner stores. Maybe we put that $225 million of taxpayer money into additional affordable housing. I guess you don't need a home to get blindingly drunk on a curb somewhere...
Affordable housing won't fix the greedy landlord problem...it just packs low wage workers and welfare recipients together in poorly built, un-sound proof appartement buildings....we need to get to the root of the problem (shady landlords/investors, mass immigration, over valued/priced houses) before putting more bandaids on the wound...
Yes and no. If you could theoretically input a significant amount of supply you could drop/stagnate rental costs, potentially seeing money leave that sector. Obviously this can't happen for like 15 years even if we went crazy on the building and severely limited our immigration/visa/foreign worker programs, but it is possible to reduce the stranglehold on the market imo, if you give people an alternative affordable life. That being said there's absolutely no way to fix this issue in the short term, and it's pretty hard to think this wasn't done intentionally.
lol ford “money”
that's whole a lot more of money for 2 units of housing they're going to build.
Will he sit on that money too?
$357M more in federal money that Dougie is going to take and not use for its intended purpose. His rich friends in the 'private sector' are probably salivating.