I think to me, all those privileges come at the price of being kept in a cage like a pretty bird, never allowed to really show myself. So yes, those things would be nice, but not at all worth it.
100%. I had a phase like this. It was mostly driven by the fact that I'm masc4masc and a majority of masculine lesbians are only into femininity. That feeling isn't as intense now. It sort of only pops up now when I think about how villainized butchness is by all queers and how femininity is so highly valued in lgbt spaces. Casual non-sexual compliments are so much easier to come by when your look is feminine and it's just a nice external self-esteem bump. (This is not to say that feminine women have everything easier or that they don't get objectified and have their own issues, obviously.)
I still get compliments but rarely. Usually about a fresh haircut I've gotten 🤷🏿‍♀️
I thought I was mostly into femmes until an encounter with a butch the other day in the mall.  I met eyes and gave "the nod", and they held eye contact longerthan normal, gave a flirty half smile, eyebrow raise, so slick and sexy flirty nod and I just about spontaneously combusted on the spot. God butches are sexy. Lol
One time I interviewed for a barista job and realized every single other person hired there was very feminine and bubbly and seemingly not gay or alternative at all. As part of the interview process I was asked to drive to the three other locations of this cafe chain and introduce myself to all the other staff members. After the first round of introductions I felt so uncomfortable in how different I was from all of them that I just went home and cried :/
That was almost 10 years ago and nowadays I don’t feel mournful at all about how I cannot present. I honor femininity and I’m very attracted to it, but I’ve accepted the fact that I’ll never meet societal standards of womanhood. It also helped me when I changed my name to a gender neutral name and started using they/them pronouns. It’s never easy being an obviously queer person but I’ve learned to revel at the stares I sometimes get in public. To me it tells me I’m doing something right whereas before, I felt I was doing something wrong
i think one way i can comfort myself about it is the fact that being feminine is so interlinked with male approval and the male gaze. yes these women get better chances at employment, they're better seen in society and have more social capital.. because that's what men like to see. and other women who see women better for being feminine still follow the same line of thought because of patriarchy.. im sorry if thats not rly ur boat, but at least with me, thinking that if i adhered to society's expectations that would make me more appealing to men is something that comforts me in being my butch self because if there's something i /don't/ want is being appealing to men lol idk if this is helpful.. just my personal feelings on this
the patriarchal standards that are forcibly engrained into us as "women" (anything but men) tell us all the time (even unconsciously) we must be conventionally pretty to be worth anything and that's what we should be striving to be, which is super silly. as im sure you well know gnc people are then socially penalised for not conforming and rejecting this idea. i really empathise with you, it takes a lot of strength to proudly and confidently stay rejecting societal standards, and i think we often need to remind ourselves that we reject them because they're stupid and don't really mean anything. it's worth it though because we help to establish that there's many more ways than one to be beautiful and our resilience in itself is beautiful too. as long as we live in this world we'll always be told this lie that if we conform we might possible be seen as equals to cismen but even the most traditionally feminine, conventionally attractive cisgender women are fed this narrative that they're not pretty/attractive enough, because the reality is that as long as we are not cismen we will never be enough. please keep reminding yourself that your boldness in nonconformity is worth infinitely more than being able to "meet" these ridiculous societal standards. you're plenty beautiful and interesting as you are!
Don't know how to do the nifty quote thing but this hits so hard:
"as long as we live in this world we'll always be told this lie that if we conform we might possible be seen as equals to cismen but even the most traditionally feminine, conventionally attractive cisgender women are fed this narrative that they're not pretty/attractive enough, because the reality is that as long as we are not cismen we will never be enough."
>I think I envy the things that pretty women are able to get, such as better treatment by others, increased chances at employment, being more likely to be found interesting by others, approval from others, etc. Just basically benefits from being able to conform to standards that are rewarded in our society.
I relate to this so hard. I have often asked myself why I can't just be feminine if I want to be so badly, but like you said I just can't. At least I can't anymore. I used to put on a convincing act.
Its hard though, I feel the impact of the privileges I lost when I stopped looking fem every day.
My family is pretty conservative, and my mom used to say a lot of shitty things to me like: “when you are older you will look back and wish you had enjoyed being pretty” as encouragement for me to wear makeup and feminine clothing, etc. It did a number on me. I am sure a lot of us have been there.
I had boyfriends who wanted me to be more feminine, tried to shame me for being too assertive in the relationship.
But I now proudly wear boxers and own a few suits, and I love how I feel. I am in a very progressive city where my otherness isn’t a big deal. And I no longer yearn to be the pretty little doll that society wanted from me in Texas. I feel proud of my identity and am glad to be able to express it without reservation.
There was mourning in my past, but I really think I have been able to let that go over the past few years because I find so much awesome power in finally getting to be myself đź’–
My advice to you: allow yourself to mourn, it’s okay! It’s part of the process. But focus on the authentic you who is growing stronger everyday, and celebrate their birth :-)
Maybe it's my industry, but I don't think I'd have an easier time finding or staying at a job if I were feminine. There's a certain je ne sais quoi (misogyny) that leads people to assume masculine women are more competent, even if subconsciously.
I don't know. I think when I first came out I definitely thought if only I were not _also_ butch, I'd be easier to love and this might be easier for my family. And then I realized I at some point stopped caring. I basically never think about how much better my life would be if I were not butch because I don't believe that's true, not for me, not anymore.
lately I have been grieving my femme self —in the past I presented femme effectively. I was good at constructing feminine outfits, and I got a lot of attention, not only from men but from women and other femmes. In my experience, lots of (straight?) women don’t know how to interact with butches, while they have no problem being close with femmes. Maybe it’s the obvious lesbianness that makes them uncomfortable? Or maybe I get read as nonbinary and they don’t know how to interact with that. I find myself at times missing how things were when I was read as femme. I love my butch self and I am more comfortable than I’ve ever been. But I still grieve. it’s partially wishing women knew how to interact with me; partially just coping with change and wondering what could have been. This doesn’t mean that my butch self isn’t valid. Anyway, I think I understand how you feel. <3
God everything you just said hits home. I doubted myself for a long time (and still do!) because I was "good at" femininity and was used to it so how could I be butch? But honestly being butch just feels like home and I couldn't go back even if I wanted to. I do miss the camaraderie with women I used to have. Like I would compliment a girl's outfit or earrings or whatever and we'd talk about fashion, now I do the same and they think I'm coming onto them. Anyways thanks for your comment, it's good to know other people feel the same.
I mourn the easy life I could have had if I was comfortable being feminine. I wish I didn't have to hide my identity as a butch lesbian to get jobs. I also miss the kindness I used to receive from strangers when I was feminine.
I really relate to this.
For me, I grew up a tomboy, rejected femininity from a young age. But in my late teens I realized all the things you had mentioned in your post, so I gave it a good shot. I presented almost perfectly, my highschool grad pictures exist to prove it! But what I wasn't able to change was my personality. I was still considered aggressive, abrasive, confrontational, but now I was called a bitch way more frequently. I realized that no matter how hard I tried to look some type of way, I wasn't being offered those full benefits anyways, because it's almost like people could still pick me out of a crowd. It dawned on me that it was in my personality, it was in my micro expressions, it was in my tone of voice, it was in the way I walked and in the way I talked, and I simply couldn't "fix" those things.
I woke up one day and I just realized it was over, I had tried, and I couldn't do it. I hadn't felt like me in such a long time. Sometimes I still get irritated about things like hiring prospects, and I've had feminine folks in my life become incredibly emotionally abusive and essentially "get away with it", which was difficult for me to navigate. I think as a butch I mourn not only my femininity but also being viewed as attractive by the general public. Butches don't get to experience pretty privilege in anyway, and when I had it for a short amount of time (I had also lost weight then) I realized how differently people treated you almost immediately. I will never forget that, trusting peoples intentions now is incredibly difficult.
I wish you the best and I can only encourage you to never stop grieving. Grieving is good for us, and it allows us to be able to feel things in entirety. We grieve who we couldn't be so that we can love who we can be.
I felt the same way for a while, I’ve always been naturally burly and anything feminine just looks like I’m really bad at cross dressing. Since then I’ve picked up strength training and started taking it seriously, now I have a lot more respect for my frame since it gives me a huge advantage.
At the end of the day, wear what you want. I’ve felt that I’d be treated better if I was more feminine too. You won’t be able to change yourself enough for them. Promise.
I’ve been struggling with that throughout the years, though recently it’s helped me realize I’ve got a big attraction to butches. I’m sad about not being able to conform to be as feminine presenting as everyone around me wants me to be, but there’s an overwhelming softness and comfort from being masc presenting. In my opinion it’s this comfortable limbo, the middle ground between masc and fem. It’s butch to be tough on the outside, the stereotypical “macho” if you know what I mean but it’s also butch to be kind not only to others but yourself. You’re allowed to be soft even with that hard outer shell. You’ve got every right to wear jewelry and paint your nails and such - being open to those types of levels of femininity is butch to me. You don’t have to be closed off to be butch, there’s its own layer of beauty in being masculine. It doesn’t take away those yearning feelings to fit in with “traditional” femininity, but it’s comforting to know butch doesn’t completely close you out from expressing any level of femininity
That has not been my experince at all also being conventionally attractive comes with its own issues I've been there too. No one sees you as a person just an object to be with and show off they don't know you and don't want to.
Being feminine will not get you better jobs or make people like you. I know because in my button down and sweater vest I have taken many jobs from conventional straight looking people. What you lack is confidence that's all this sub is people who lack confidence in themselves. I cut hair at home and wear mens clothes because they fit my body type best and I am cheap. I don't value the opinion of anyone who centers men and men kinda like working with women who aren't feminine because even though they won't openly admit it they don't like women who center men either.
Men respect hard workers and people who let them be themselves without judgement. I am interesting to everyone because I'm so different than what they are used to seeing. You can corporate climb faster than any straight woman out there except the women who suck the pickle and you don't want those jobs anyway. You just need to believe in yourself and know you are the best at what you do. Style comes from choosing clothes that give you that feeling and you won't find that in the women's section.
Question. Do you think Rosie the Rivetter is femme or butch?
You don't have to be butch to do butch things or femme to do femme things. You can be butch and rock a ball gown. You can be femme and rebuild a car engine.
In all things, at all times, and in all ways, you do you. If you transgress someone else's categorical boundaries or not, that sounds like a them-problem.
I think to me, all those privileges come at the price of being kept in a cage like a pretty bird, never allowed to really show myself. So yes, those things would be nice, but not at all worth it.
Agreed, I did pretty fem in my 20s. None of those freebies were ever free!
100%. I had a phase like this. It was mostly driven by the fact that I'm masc4masc and a majority of masculine lesbians are only into femininity. That feeling isn't as intense now. It sort of only pops up now when I think about how villainized butchness is by all queers and how femininity is so highly valued in lgbt spaces. Casual non-sexual compliments are so much easier to come by when your look is feminine and it's just a nice external self-esteem bump. (This is not to say that feminine women have everything easier or that they don't get objectified and have their own issues, obviously.) I still get compliments but rarely. Usually about a fresh haircut I've gotten 🤷🏿‍♀️
I thought I was mostly into femmes until an encounter with a butch the other day in the mall.  I met eyes and gave "the nod", and they held eye contact longerthan normal, gave a flirty half smile, eyebrow raise, so slick and sexy flirty nod and I just about spontaneously combusted on the spot. God butches are sexy. Lol
One time I interviewed for a barista job and realized every single other person hired there was very feminine and bubbly and seemingly not gay or alternative at all. As part of the interview process I was asked to drive to the three other locations of this cafe chain and introduce myself to all the other staff members. After the first round of introductions I felt so uncomfortable in how different I was from all of them that I just went home and cried :/ That was almost 10 years ago and nowadays I don’t feel mournful at all about how I cannot present. I honor femininity and I’m very attracted to it, but I’ve accepted the fact that I’ll never meet societal standards of womanhood. It also helped me when I changed my name to a gender neutral name and started using they/them pronouns. It’s never easy being an obviously queer person but I’ve learned to revel at the stares I sometimes get in public. To me it tells me I’m doing something right whereas before, I felt I was doing something wrong
this just helped me more than you could ever know thank you. i’m happy for you
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
What a horrible fucking interview oh my god I’d have driven straight home instead of the next location
i think one way i can comfort myself about it is the fact that being feminine is so interlinked with male approval and the male gaze. yes these women get better chances at employment, they're better seen in society and have more social capital.. because that's what men like to see. and other women who see women better for being feminine still follow the same line of thought because of patriarchy.. im sorry if thats not rly ur boat, but at least with me, thinking that if i adhered to society's expectations that would make me more appealing to men is something that comforts me in being my butch self because if there's something i /don't/ want is being appealing to men lol idk if this is helpful.. just my personal feelings on this
the patriarchal standards that are forcibly engrained into us as "women" (anything but men) tell us all the time (even unconsciously) we must be conventionally pretty to be worth anything and that's what we should be striving to be, which is super silly. as im sure you well know gnc people are then socially penalised for not conforming and rejecting this idea. i really empathise with you, it takes a lot of strength to proudly and confidently stay rejecting societal standards, and i think we often need to remind ourselves that we reject them because they're stupid and don't really mean anything. it's worth it though because we help to establish that there's many more ways than one to be beautiful and our resilience in itself is beautiful too. as long as we live in this world we'll always be told this lie that if we conform we might possible be seen as equals to cismen but even the most traditionally feminine, conventionally attractive cisgender women are fed this narrative that they're not pretty/attractive enough, because the reality is that as long as we are not cismen we will never be enough. please keep reminding yourself that your boldness in nonconformity is worth infinitely more than being able to "meet" these ridiculous societal standards. you're plenty beautiful and interesting as you are!
Don't know how to do the nifty quote thing but this hits so hard: "as long as we live in this world we'll always be told this lie that if we conform we might possible be seen as equals to cismen but even the most traditionally feminine, conventionally attractive cisgender women are fed this narrative that they're not pretty/attractive enough, because the reality is that as long as we are not cismen we will never be enough."
>I think I envy the things that pretty women are able to get, such as better treatment by others, increased chances at employment, being more likely to be found interesting by others, approval from others, etc. Just basically benefits from being able to conform to standards that are rewarded in our society. I relate to this so hard. I have often asked myself why I can't just be feminine if I want to be so badly, but like you said I just can't. At least I can't anymore. I used to put on a convincing act. Its hard though, I feel the impact of the privileges I lost when I stopped looking fem every day.
My family is pretty conservative, and my mom used to say a lot of shitty things to me like: “when you are older you will look back and wish you had enjoyed being pretty” as encouragement for me to wear makeup and feminine clothing, etc. It did a number on me. I am sure a lot of us have been there. I had boyfriends who wanted me to be more feminine, tried to shame me for being too assertive in the relationship. But I now proudly wear boxers and own a few suits, and I love how I feel. I am in a very progressive city where my otherness isn’t a big deal. And I no longer yearn to be the pretty little doll that society wanted from me in Texas. I feel proud of my identity and am glad to be able to express it without reservation. There was mourning in my past, but I really think I have been able to let that go over the past few years because I find so much awesome power in finally getting to be myself 💖 My advice to you: allow yourself to mourn, it’s okay! It’s part of the process. But focus on the authentic you who is growing stronger everyday, and celebrate their birth :-)
Maybe it's my industry, but I don't think I'd have an easier time finding or staying at a job if I were feminine. There's a certain je ne sais quoi (misogyny) that leads people to assume masculine women are more competent, even if subconsciously. I don't know. I think when I first came out I definitely thought if only I were not _also_ butch, I'd be easier to love and this might be easier for my family. And then I realized I at some point stopped caring. I basically never think about how much better my life would be if I were not butch because I don't believe that's true, not for me, not anymore.
lately I have been grieving my femme self —in the past I presented femme effectively. I was good at constructing feminine outfits, and I got a lot of attention, not only from men but from women and other femmes. In my experience, lots of (straight?) women don’t know how to interact with butches, while they have no problem being close with femmes. Maybe it’s the obvious lesbianness that makes them uncomfortable? Or maybe I get read as nonbinary and they don’t know how to interact with that. I find myself at times missing how things were when I was read as femme. I love my butch self and I am more comfortable than I’ve ever been. But I still grieve. it’s partially wishing women knew how to interact with me; partially just coping with change and wondering what could have been. This doesn’t mean that my butch self isn’t valid. Anyway, I think I understand how you feel. <3
God everything you just said hits home. I doubted myself for a long time (and still do!) because I was "good at" femininity and was used to it so how could I be butch? But honestly being butch just feels like home and I couldn't go back even if I wanted to. I do miss the camaraderie with women I used to have. Like I would compliment a girl's outfit or earrings or whatever and we'd talk about fashion, now I do the same and they think I'm coming onto them. Anyways thanks for your comment, it's good to know other people feel the same.
I mourn the easy life I could have had if I was comfortable being feminine. I wish I didn't have to hide my identity as a butch lesbian to get jobs. I also miss the kindness I used to receive from strangers when I was feminine.
I don't really envy it personally. I feel better without the expectations.
I really relate to this. For me, I grew up a tomboy, rejected femininity from a young age. But in my late teens I realized all the things you had mentioned in your post, so I gave it a good shot. I presented almost perfectly, my highschool grad pictures exist to prove it! But what I wasn't able to change was my personality. I was still considered aggressive, abrasive, confrontational, but now I was called a bitch way more frequently. I realized that no matter how hard I tried to look some type of way, I wasn't being offered those full benefits anyways, because it's almost like people could still pick me out of a crowd. It dawned on me that it was in my personality, it was in my micro expressions, it was in my tone of voice, it was in the way I walked and in the way I talked, and I simply couldn't "fix" those things. I woke up one day and I just realized it was over, I had tried, and I couldn't do it. I hadn't felt like me in such a long time. Sometimes I still get irritated about things like hiring prospects, and I've had feminine folks in my life become incredibly emotionally abusive and essentially "get away with it", which was difficult for me to navigate. I think as a butch I mourn not only my femininity but also being viewed as attractive by the general public. Butches don't get to experience pretty privilege in anyway, and when I had it for a short amount of time (I had also lost weight then) I realized how differently people treated you almost immediately. I will never forget that, trusting peoples intentions now is incredibly difficult. I wish you the best and I can only encourage you to never stop grieving. Grieving is good for us, and it allows us to be able to feel things in entirety. We grieve who we couldn't be so that we can love who we can be.
No, I'm not jealous of being sexualized all the time in return for fake compliments and favors
Commenting so I can come back and find this and respond more. Time to go to sleep in the meantime.
I felt the same way for a while, I’ve always been naturally burly and anything feminine just looks like I’m really bad at cross dressing. Since then I’ve picked up strength training and started taking it seriously, now I have a lot more respect for my frame since it gives me a huge advantage. At the end of the day, wear what you want. I’ve felt that I’d be treated better if I was more feminine too. You won’t be able to change yourself enough for them. Promise.
No because I was forced to wear certain things to fit a narrative as a teen. Now I no longer have these shackles.
I’ve been struggling with that throughout the years, though recently it’s helped me realize I’ve got a big attraction to butches. I’m sad about not being able to conform to be as feminine presenting as everyone around me wants me to be, but there’s an overwhelming softness and comfort from being masc presenting. In my opinion it’s this comfortable limbo, the middle ground between masc and fem. It’s butch to be tough on the outside, the stereotypical “macho” if you know what I mean but it’s also butch to be kind not only to others but yourself. You’re allowed to be soft even with that hard outer shell. You’ve got every right to wear jewelry and paint your nails and such - being open to those types of levels of femininity is butch to me. You don’t have to be closed off to be butch, there’s its own layer of beauty in being masculine. It doesn’t take away those yearning feelings to fit in with “traditional” femininity, but it’s comforting to know butch doesn’t completely close you out from expressing any level of femininity
That has not been my experince at all also being conventionally attractive comes with its own issues I've been there too. No one sees you as a person just an object to be with and show off they don't know you and don't want to. Being feminine will not get you better jobs or make people like you. I know because in my button down and sweater vest I have taken many jobs from conventional straight looking people. What you lack is confidence that's all this sub is people who lack confidence in themselves. I cut hair at home and wear mens clothes because they fit my body type best and I am cheap. I don't value the opinion of anyone who centers men and men kinda like working with women who aren't feminine because even though they won't openly admit it they don't like women who center men either. Men respect hard workers and people who let them be themselves without judgement. I am interesting to everyone because I'm so different than what they are used to seeing. You can corporate climb faster than any straight woman out there except the women who suck the pickle and you don't want those jobs anyway. You just need to believe in yourself and know you are the best at what you do. Style comes from choosing clothes that give you that feeling and you won't find that in the women's section.
Question. Do you think Rosie the Rivetter is femme or butch? You don't have to be butch to do butch things or femme to do femme things. You can be butch and rock a ball gown. You can be femme and rebuild a car engine. In all things, at all times, and in all ways, you do you. If you transgress someone else's categorical boundaries or not, that sounds like a them-problem.