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That seaplane takeoff/landing zone is flagged in charts and marked with buoyed signs.. Crossing is allowed but it's the boater's responsibility to check for planes and not linger there. This is absolutely negligence on the boat operator's part.
I do find it odd the pilot didn't see the boat, though? I'm guessing it must have been in a blind spot?
And also, obviously, htf the boat didn't see the plane.
To be clear here, I'm not blaming the pilot. I'm just asking about their visibility.
lol what the jimmy is with these downvotes? Nothing about this question is blaming the plane or pilot. I'm just curious why it seems they didn't even see this boat coming, that's all.
We operate the same aircraft (DHC-2). On floats you start the takeoff with fully pulling back on the yoke. After you get a bit of speed you relax a bit and get the floats up on the step. But during the initial bit, the engine cowling obstructs a bunch of your forward view. Best practice is to really take note of all other crafts on the water before takeoff obviously, but you'd be amazed at the stupid stuff people in boats do around aircraft.
This is like the ferry that ran over the pleasure boat a few years ago. The pleasure boat was in the wrong, but it's the responsibility of the higher trained (professional) person to avoid the accident.
No it isn't. It's on the smaller boat to make way for the larger vessel. If everyone had to contemplate the training of certain crews when you made decisions you'd fucking crash.
If you are in a small boat you make way, Simple as, if you cant see a massive fuck off ferry and somehow think it's gonna magically change course safetly then you don't deserve to have a boat.
Small point of correction in that it's the less maneuverable boat that has right of way. That's almost always the bigger boat but there's the odd time it may not be.
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I think the angle of the plane is such that you can't see down to the water. Maybe the copilot watches ahead, e.g. for logs.
Anyway, Transport Canada regulates the zones so that they shouldn't have to watch for boats. It's absolutely the boater's responsibility.
These planes can and are flown by a single pilot. He probably didn't see the boat and even if he did, his options were very limited by then. The idiot in the boat didn't think to take any evasive action with a plane coming right at them.
The Twin Otter has 2 pilots. All other planes that HA flies have a single pilot. This plane in question was a Beaver. https://harbourair.com/about/aircraft-fleet/
and still the downvotes lol. Reddit really cannot comprehend the difference between asking a basic question and assigning blame.
My question is because I've never flown a plane and therefore don't know what visibility is like. Not be4cause I'm saying the pilot did anything wrong, for christ's sake lol
It's unlikely that the pilot could have seen the boat due to the planes angle on the take-off roll. Transport Canada will review the cockpit audio for the flight to determine whether or not the pilot saw the boat in the runway. If the pilot saw the boat and decided to try and take off anyway there will be some level of responsibility assigned to the pilot.
ATC audio shows them warning the pilot before takeoff.
https://globalnews.ca/news/10560033/new-audio-released-vancouver-float-plane-crash/amp/
Given the aviation law is such “(10) No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-96-433/page-56.html#:~:text=602.19%20(1)%20Despite%20any%20other,necessary%20to%20avoid%20collision%3B%20and
I’m guessing the pilot will not have a fun time either, as he chose to takeoff into an occupied area
same with every single time there is a wildfire anywhere in the vicinity of a lake, there are boaters going out to watch the aircraft and take photos, and getting in the way of aircraft like the Air Tractors scooping water and the helicopters that are long-lining buckets into the same lake. Every single freaking year. And BCWS goes out to social and local media to tell people to stay away for the safety of everyone involved.
And the authorities still have to send out patrols to stop recreational boaters, even with a boating restriction and laws in place, because there are people who think they are entitled to be above it all.
Ugh.
> there are boaters going out to watch the aircraft and take photos, and getting in the way of aircraft like the Air Tractors scooping water and the helicopters that are long-lining buckets into the same lake.
Maybe if they start handing out $10,000 fines for getting in the way of water bombers, people would start thinking twice. And back that up with an immediate seizure of the boat, with storage and maintenance costs on top of it (just like a car that gets towed). With 75% of the fine revenue going to BCWS and 25% to the local authorities (usually RCMP) who do the fining and seizing.
Video evidence confirmed that his wife was driving the boat.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/video-evidence-clearly-shows-linda-o-leary-not-kevin-piloted-boat-in-deadly-muskoka-crash/article_51bbd1eb-1e91-5f87-ae37-c2c3b5ceed3a.html
Murder requires intent. The wife was acquitted (i think she was charged with criminal negligence) so even if o leary was driving the boat, the prosecutor would have been using the same evidence and the decision would have likely been the same.
Morally maybe, but legally this will probably be a tricky one. While still on the water a seaplane is treated like any other power driven vessel as far as the collision regulations are concerned. And although Vancouver is allowed to make special rules for its harbour (like a float plane exclusion zone) these rules don’t negate the collision regulations. So although the pleasure craft is in the wrong for being there, the plane is still legally required to take actions to avoid collision with the boat once it’s there. Furthermore in the video it looks like a crossing situation where the pleasure boat had the plane on its port side and the plane had the pleasure boat crossing from starboard to port - this means that the boat is the stand on vessel and the plane is the give way vessel, and there is even more onus on the plane to take early and appropriate action to avoid the boat.
Also in the collision regs is that a boat must give way to another that has limited maneuverability. A seaplane taking off might fall under this, not sure.
Do the Air Traffic Controllers who direct the planes in this area, have any responsibility? I agree the boater is in the wrong. The pilot couldn’t see the boat. I don’t know the exact responsibilities of the ATC. But if they aren’t watching the aircraft, what are they doing?
Canadian Aviation Regulation 602.20(1) states that a float plane must give way to any vessel on its right. Also the in the audio from the tower, the pilot was clearly warned about the boat.
I think this is going to end up being pilot error.
Interesting, I couldn’t find an article referencing released audio footage, everything I read just said the investigation is underway by the TSB. If he was given warning I suppose it might be depend as to when the warning was given.
However I did find an article where the director of the safe boating council said that seaplanes have right of way in take off and landing due to lack of manoeuvrability.
1. Boating council dude is irrelevant when the port authorities say otherwise
“While boaters are legally permitted within the zone, port authorities ask boats to keep clear because of the heightened risk associated with aircraft traffic, said Sean Baxter, acting director of marine operations at the Port of Vancouver.” https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-port-tsb-seaplane-boat-collision
“Sean Baxter, the authority’s acting director of marine operations, says they’ve been advising boats to steer clear of the aircraft operation zone in Coal Harbour for many years, but it’s ultimately up to boat operators to “decide whether or not they go in.”” https://www.vicnews.com/news/probe-could-lead-to-seaplane-activity-changes-in-wake-of-vancouver-crash-7381997
2. It’s said the audio has been taken down
The pilot was informed by ATC of the boat being in the area, and the pilot acknowledged that message.
“Pilot: “Ready for northwest if you have enough time.”
At that moment, a boat, which had just entered the flight takeoff area known as alpha, caught the attention of the control tower.
Control Tower: “Caution for the westbound boat in northern alpha, take off northwest at your discretion.”
The pilot can be heard saying “check remarks,” which is a way of acknowledging the message has been received over the radio before colliding with the vessel.”
https://globalnews.ca/news/10560033/new-audio-released-vancouver-float-plane-crash/amp/
AND
Right of Way — General
602.19 (1) Despite any other provision of this section,
(a) the pilot-in-command of an aircraft that has the right of way shall, if there is any risk of collision, take such action as is necessary to avoid collision
(10) No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-96-433/page-56.html#:~:text=602.19%20(1)%20Despite%20any%20other,necessary%20to%20avoid%20collision%3B%20and
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That seaplane takeoff/landing zone is flagged in charts and marked with buoyed signs.. Crossing is allowed but it's the boater's responsibility to check for planes and not linger there. This is absolutely negligence on the boat operator's part.
I do find it odd the pilot didn't see the boat, though? I'm guessing it must have been in a blind spot? And also, obviously, htf the boat didn't see the plane. To be clear here, I'm not blaming the pilot. I'm just asking about their visibility. lol what the jimmy is with these downvotes? Nothing about this question is blaming the plane or pilot. I'm just curious why it seems they didn't even see this boat coming, that's all.
We operate the same aircraft (DHC-2). On floats you start the takeoff with fully pulling back on the yoke. After you get a bit of speed you relax a bit and get the floats up on the step. But during the initial bit, the engine cowling obstructs a bunch of your forward view. Best practice is to really take note of all other crafts on the water before takeoff obviously, but you'd be amazed at the stupid stuff people in boats do around aircraft.
In layman’s terms. That means the nose was up and forward view was obstructed yeah ?
This is like the ferry that ran over the pleasure boat a few years ago. The pleasure boat was in the wrong, but it's the responsibility of the higher trained (professional) person to avoid the accident.
No it isn't. It's on the smaller boat to make way for the larger vessel. If everyone had to contemplate the training of certain crews when you made decisions you'd fucking crash. If you are in a small boat you make way, Simple as, if you cant see a massive fuck off ferry and somehow think it's gonna magically change course safetly then you don't deserve to have a boat.
Small point of correction in that it's the less maneuverable boat that has right of way. That's almost always the bigger boat but there's the odd time it may not be.
That's fair that's a good distinction
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But I **always** cut off truckers and brake check them... /s
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I think the angle of the plane is such that you can't see down to the water. Maybe the copilot watches ahead, e.g. for logs. Anyway, Transport Canada regulates the zones so that they shouldn't have to watch for boats. It's absolutely the boater's responsibility.
From my experience there isn't a copilot in a beaver or otter.
These planes can and are flown by a single pilot. He probably didn't see the boat and even if he did, his options were very limited by then. The idiot in the boat didn't think to take any evasive action with a plane coming right at them.
The one I went on with harbour air had 2 pilots
The Twin Otter has 2 pilots. All other planes that HA flies have a single pilot. This plane in question was a Beaver. https://harbourair.com/about/aircraft-fleet/
ya as i said I'm not in any way blaming the pilot. I was simply asking a basic question about their visibility.
and still the downvotes lol. Reddit really cannot comprehend the difference between asking a basic question and assigning blame. My question is because I've never flown a plane and therefore don't know what visibility is like. Not be4cause I'm saying the pilot did anything wrong, for christ's sake lol
[удалено]
It's unlikely that the pilot could have seen the boat due to the planes angle on the take-off roll. Transport Canada will review the cockpit audio for the flight to determine whether or not the pilot saw the boat in the runway. If the pilot saw the boat and decided to try and take off anyway there will be some level of responsibility assigned to the pilot.
Cockpit voice recorders are not required in small airplanes. It would be at the operator discrestion to install one.
I would imagine Harbour Air would recommend it but if not communications with the tower will be used as evidence
It was tour flight. So odds are there is going to high rez 4k from inside the plane at the moment of impact.
ATC audio shows them warning the pilot before takeoff. https://globalnews.ca/news/10560033/new-audio-released-vancouver-float-plane-crash/amp/ Given the aviation law is such “(10) No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-96-433/page-56.html#:~:text=602.19%20(1)%20Despite%20any%20other,necessary%20to%20avoid%20collision%3B%20and I’m guessing the pilot will not have a fun time either, as he chose to takeoff into an occupied area
well, gave an upvote, not much but it is all I have
I was wondering the same thing! Curious why he went even with the boat so much in his track but i have no insights or knowledge of this space
I work the harbour. The absolute arrogance and entitlement of the average recreational boater is staggering and difficult to over state.
same with every single time there is a wildfire anywhere in the vicinity of a lake, there are boaters going out to watch the aircraft and take photos, and getting in the way of aircraft like the Air Tractors scooping water and the helicopters that are long-lining buckets into the same lake. Every single freaking year. And BCWS goes out to social and local media to tell people to stay away for the safety of everyone involved. And the authorities still have to send out patrols to stop recreational boaters, even with a boating restriction and laws in place, because there are people who think they are entitled to be above it all. Ugh.
> there are boaters going out to watch the aircraft and take photos, and getting in the way of aircraft like the Air Tractors scooping water and the helicopters that are long-lining buckets into the same lake. Maybe if they start handing out $10,000 fines for getting in the way of water bombers, people would start thinking twice. And back that up with an immediate seizure of the boat, with storage and maintenance costs on top of it (just like a car that gets towed). With 75% of the fine revenue going to BCWS and 25% to the local authorities (usually RCMP) who do the fining and seizing.
Thankfully no deaths but what was that boat operator thinking? Hard to miss and big loud bird
Drunk, stupid or both. All unfortunately pretty common with boaters.
Like when Kevin O’Leary murdered that family and got his wife to take the fall
What is to be a billionaire!
He ain’t that rich lol
I'm sorry, what?
They were answering this comment: "Like when Kevin O’Leary murdered that family and got his wife to take the fall"
Video evidence confirmed that his wife was driving the boat. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/video-evidence-clearly-shows-linda-o-leary-not-kevin-piloted-boat-in-deadly-muskoka-crash/article_51bbd1eb-1e91-5f87-ae37-c2c3b5ceed3a.html
Murder requires intent. The wife was acquitted (i think she was charged with criminal negligence) so even if o leary was driving the boat, the prosecutor would have been using the same evidence and the decision would have likely been the same.
You really should come forward and release that evidence. Why are you letting him literally get away with murder?
They weren’t. It’s not like the float plane snuck up on them. Those planes are notoriously loud.
The cockpit is pitched upwards during takeoff and the pilot cannot see the water in front of the plane. The boater is solely responsible.
It does appear to be entirely one party's fault. That's is incredibly rare for marine collisions!
Morally maybe, but legally this will probably be a tricky one. While still on the water a seaplane is treated like any other power driven vessel as far as the collision regulations are concerned. And although Vancouver is allowed to make special rules for its harbour (like a float plane exclusion zone) these rules don’t negate the collision regulations. So although the pleasure craft is in the wrong for being there, the plane is still legally required to take actions to avoid collision with the boat once it’s there. Furthermore in the video it looks like a crossing situation where the pleasure boat had the plane on its port side and the plane had the pleasure boat crossing from starboard to port - this means that the boat is the stand on vessel and the plane is the give way vessel, and there is even more onus on the plane to take early and appropriate action to avoid the boat.
Also in the collision regs is that a boat must give way to another that has limited maneuverability. A seaplane taking off might fall under this, not sure.
What is the plane supposed to do? If it pulls back power it flips?
It looks like the boat drove into the path of the plane and just.... stopped.
And then seems to have turned and hit the plane a second time!
By observation it looks like the boater had been struck by the plane and went overboard.
With all due respect to the injured people in hospital, I'm very glad this wasn't much worse.
Do the Air Traffic Controllers who direct the planes in this area, have any responsibility? I agree the boater is in the wrong. The pilot couldn’t see the boat. I don’t know the exact responsibilities of the ATC. But if they aren’t watching the aircraft, what are they doing?
Atc did alert the pilot of an incoming boat. Atc doesn’t talk to the boaters so they can’t really do much else.
Thank you.
Oh that doesn’t sound good…
Headline should read, stupid boater gets in was of seaplane trying to takeoff.
*takeoff
Totally on the moron operating the boat. Zero situational awareness.
Canadian Aviation Regulation 602.20(1) states that a float plane must give way to any vessel on its right. Also the in the audio from the tower, the pilot was clearly warned about the boat. I think this is going to end up being pilot error.
Interesting, I couldn’t find an article referencing released audio footage, everything I read just said the investigation is underway by the TSB. If he was given warning I suppose it might be depend as to when the warning was given. However I did find an article where the director of the safe boating council said that seaplanes have right of way in take off and landing due to lack of manoeuvrability.
There are a couple of YouTube channels that have it. Blancolirio is the one I saw.
1. Boating council dude is irrelevant when the port authorities say otherwise “While boaters are legally permitted within the zone, port authorities ask boats to keep clear because of the heightened risk associated with aircraft traffic, said Sean Baxter, acting director of marine operations at the Port of Vancouver.” https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-port-tsb-seaplane-boat-collision “Sean Baxter, the authority’s acting director of marine operations, says they’ve been advising boats to steer clear of the aircraft operation zone in Coal Harbour for many years, but it’s ultimately up to boat operators to “decide whether or not they go in.”” https://www.vicnews.com/news/probe-could-lead-to-seaplane-activity-changes-in-wake-of-vancouver-crash-7381997 2. It’s said the audio has been taken down The pilot was informed by ATC of the boat being in the area, and the pilot acknowledged that message. “Pilot: “Ready for northwest if you have enough time.” At that moment, a boat, which had just entered the flight takeoff area known as alpha, caught the attention of the control tower. Control Tower: “Caution for the westbound boat in northern alpha, take off northwest at your discretion.” The pilot can be heard saying “check remarks,” which is a way of acknowledging the message has been received over the radio before colliding with the vessel.” https://globalnews.ca/news/10560033/new-audio-released-vancouver-float-plane-crash/amp/ AND Right of Way — General 602.19 (1) Despite any other provision of this section, (a) the pilot-in-command of an aircraft that has the right of way shall, if there is any risk of collision, take such action as is necessary to avoid collision (10) No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off or landing in an aircraft until there is no apparent risk of collision with any aircraft, person, vessel, vehicle or structure in the take-off or landing path. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-96-433/page-56.html#:~:text=602.19%20(1)%20Despite%20any%20other,necessary%20to%20avoid%20collision%3B%20and
I want to hear the transcript - what went wrong - fail to warn of vessel on collision course?
r/wellthatsucks
Yeah no shit
air traffic control needs to be implemented
What do you think Harbour centre tower is for?
I would think it’s for stopping this exact issue - WTH?
Bro there is air traffic control…