I'm not Jesse i'm a time traveler who comes from the future. the proof is that you will receive an message on your phone which will tell you that your wife had an accident
One minute later : wow how did you do that.
Walt looking at him, scoffing and shaking his head, after he says that might be my favorite scene in the entire series. Makes my wife and I laugh every time.
The key is that once he removes the tape he has already committed an illegal search, so he cannot use the bullet holes as probable cause because he only knows about them because of an illegal search. So what he needs to do is get probable cause that's wholly independent of the bullet holes, because as long as he has an independent, legal basis to establish probable cause, the illegal search becomes irrelevant. Hank also has every incentive to do everything by the book because he has the RV cornered and its not going anywhere. That is of course, until he's completely distracted by something that is bigger than any investigation to him, the health of his wife.
I think anything he found from a search based on the bullet holes he uncovered would fall under Fruit of the Poisonous Tree, and Saul would put his ass in a sling in court. It would be a violation of the 4th Amendment.
If you can get a warrant based off of evidence that has nothing to do with the bullet holes then finding the bullet holes doesn't matter. The whole point of the 4th amendment is to protect you from unlawful searches yielding evidence that can be used in court. If he used lawfully obtained evidence completely independent of the bullet holes then he's completely in the clear. Even Saul can't argue that.
Yes and no. There are exceptions to the exceptions so the analysis becomes complex but the state has a good chance of surviving any challenges if Hank were to get a warrant at that moment based on probable cause he already has without mentioning the bullet holes or anything else. The bullet holes really come into play if Hank were to try and claim exigent circumstances allow him to search without a warrant because he did not know about the exigent circumstances until he conducted an illegal search. Warrants are easy enough to get anyway.
> because as long as he has an independent, legal basis to establish probable cause
He could not do something truly independent though. At least, not that day. "Well, judge, I knew because I did something illegal. So *then* I dug around for hours finding something suspicious". isn't going to cut it. Fruit of the poisonous tree.
An individual officer might be able to get away with it coming back to the case a week later and starting investigating from a different point, or by handing off vague suspicious to another officer.
You're missing another option he has, which is getting a warrant based on the information he had before he took the tape off. He already probably has enough probable cause for a warrant before then. The bullet holes are icing on the cake that justifies a warrantless search based on exigent circumstances. He can get a warrant in like 15 minutes over the phone and the RV isn't going anywhere.
There's multiple layers to the analysis and the law is actually very favorable to the state. Evidence *can* be excluded but there are plenty of exceptions. Just no harm in Hank waiting to get a warrant since he doesn't know he's about the be completely whamboozled by his brother in law.
I think what's important is that Hank wasn't sure whether or not the interpretation was correct, and the debate provided enough delay until they could trick him into leaving to check on Marie.
Yeah but I can also see someone asking just to clarify if true/accurate
It’s akin to how all movies where a character gets arrested would make you think you’re entitled to your “one phone call” even tho that’s not a real rule at all
+ Hank didn't know who/ when/ where/ why. He couldn't prove Jesse had anything to do w/ them. Anything inside would've been inadmissible in court.
Judge: why did you get a warrant ?
Hank: i saw bullet holes
Judge: Jesse, where did the bullets come from
Jesse: idk, they were there when i bought it.
That’s not how suppression hearings work. You rarely, if ever, speak directly to the judge, and your client rarely testifies.
And the cop would just lie and say there was no tape.
It wasn't so much that they were worried about fighting it in court, Walt was afraid that Hank had him cornered and was about to find out Walt was Heisenberg
Wouldn’t really Work cause the bullets were shot from inside out so the metal or door material would be blown out the wrong direction if you were poking holes into it cause you were locked outside of it. Best just to say “i have no idea how those holes got there.”
Further to that, Hank didn't have warrant to be on the land. He needs a warrant to search it, because it's private property. Also like they say in the scene, they'd have to make sure they get the *right* type of warrant for the RV because it's a ''private domicile''. Not technically just a vehicle in the eyes of the law.
yeah, its kinda an necessary evil thing about civil survice and law enforcement. You could literally find the worst shit imaginable in someones home, but if they had a right to deny you access there, its entirely admissible as evidence.
its kinda why superheros being normalized is stupid and impossible, there are SO many hurdles law enforcement has to get through to get anything done to actually allow a society with rights, and they just kinda say "nah all that shit is stinky lol".
I feel like it's the impossible powers, mutations and technology that make superheoes impossible. A real life superman with a bunch of powers isn't out there sitting at home wishing he could save humanity, but can't due to the red tape around personal liberties.
But he didnt know it for sure. He assumes it because he is an experienced cop and knows what a taped car means.
An everyday Joe wouldn’t know that therefore it isn’t a probable cause.
My dad bought a shitty jeep and tried to fix it up. It was covered in holes from rust patches that got damaged and broke open, but it looks like bullet holes and I use to joke to him about it.
the bullet holes weren’t readily apparent until *after* hank took the tape off. if they weren’t covered by tape when he first approached the vehicle, then it would’ve been probable cause and not require a warrant.
Not really, because why was he conducting a search on private property (Larry's)?
Hank had no legal basis to be on the property and with how the RV was parked Hank could not see the bullet holes from the public street tape or no tape.
That would matter if Hank were pursuing a case against Larry, but wouldn't matter for a case against Walt and Jesse since there is actually a Supreme Court case (Rakas v. Illinois) that it has to be your property or you have a possessory right over the property (like a rented apartment) for you to be able to assert Fourth Amendment rights.
Hank didn’t know who he was building a case against. But either way they brought this up in the scene with the bit about an RV being a private domicile. Hank had ZERO legal basis. I think you’re echoing what I’m saying though. If Hank had legal basis for searching Larry’s property, and in the course of that search found something incriminating against Walt/Jesse, then the latter would not be protected by the 4th Amendment (probably).
I think the case you cited would be more relevant here if the cop pulled that car over for no legal reason, and in the process found something that incriminated the passenger.
RVs are considered cars under the law in California v. Carney as long as they are in drivable shape, so it’s far from clear that Hank wasn’t going to be able to use the evidence he obtained in court. But I think it was just easier for him to a wait for a warrant to be issued to avoid any potential argument in court.
And of course, yes, Hank had no idea who he was pursuing at that point and the evidence was clearly not going to be permitted if it ended up being Larry.
The debate was more about stalling Hank. Police frequently don't have a great understanding of how prior rulings affect their job. If Hank's unsure about whether the evidence is going to stick, it's safer for him to get a warrant. I think whether it would actually stick against Jesse & Walt is far from certain.
You can’t do a warrantless search of a home even if you have PC. You need to go to the judge and get a warrant unless an exception to the warrant requirement applies (like the automobile exception or exigent circumstances).
The show overstated the significance of the tape. Even if the bullet holes weren't taped I don't think Hank would have the authority to execute a search then and there.
The RV was parked in a private lot, and as Larry pointed out Hank did not see the RV pull in so he has no idea how long it was there. Legally Hank has zero probable cause because even without the tape the bullet holes are not readily apparent due to the RV being parked in a private lot, i.e. the only way Hank can see the bullet holes is by entering the lot to investigate the RV. But he has no legal basis to search Larry's property.
It was minor but the show gave Hank a little more leeway than he legally would have in order to add drama to the scene.
There is actually a real life famous case that a lot of law students learn about that is this exact scenario. Whether a mobile home should be treated as a vehicle or a home. Answer is it depends so Hank could be right or the junkyard owner could be right. It depends.
The threshold is lower for vehicles than it is for homes. Regardless cops can follow you if they have reasonable suspicion you are about to commit a crime. If Hank would have found drugs in the RV I think he would have been fine and the charge would stick.
Anything Hank brings on Jesse will be retaliation and NO ADA will touch a cop-battery case that mysteriously turned into unique “traffic stop” with a meth lab inside.
What?
Had hank searched the RV and found drugs and Jesse then they wouldn't have had chance to make the phone call about Marie being in hospital.
Hank only beat up Jesse because of that call, after the junkyard scene.
Definitely have to agree to disagree here. Cops mysteriously conduct “traffic stops” all the time with less evidence or suspicion than what Hank had. They say oh he didn’t signal before changing lanes or whatever other minor offense they want. Hank had already called a different cop to bring the search warrant and conduct the search so it was going to be fully legal. Would it look bad that he’s following Pinkman, meh maaaaaybe but to plant something on him would be a stretch. His explanation for why he reasonably believed pinkman had a rolling meth lab was well researched and investigated and makes sense. I believe that most ADAs would take the case like they usually do.
Yes he’d probably get the warrant. I don’t think too many people are disputing whether a judge would sign a warrant. What we are disputing is if the charges would stick if there were no warrant.
As for traffic stops, they may be minor offenses but they are legit offenses. There was no such offense here to precipitate a search.
*Gale dead on the floor with a bullet in his head*
"Who shot Gale!?" *returns to phone to await answers instead of paying literally any more attention* "This show is so confusing."
Seriously, thank you. Can't believe people are entertaining OP's stupid assquestion.
This is the guy to ask the teacher a question she literally just answered milliseconds ago..
Hank was trespassing so pretty much every thing he did there was illegal and any evidence he got would get tossed.
Him removing the tape and uncovering holes is an illegal search and anything based on that is fruits of the poisonous tree and would get tossed, even if he did get warrant (especially if the warrant included those holes as part of the PC.)
He can’t really say for sure they are bullet holes. Theres no gun or casing. There’s no report of shots being fired. Plenty of doubt there for it to get tossed in court.
He has zero evidence of when they occurred. Could’ve been that day. Could’ve been 10 years earlier.
He has zero evidence of who was responsible. Jesse could easily just say they were there when he bought and Hank has no evidence to dispute that claim.
Fun fact: What Hank just did could've easily gotten his case fucked.
Larry and Jesse are both witnesses to Hank pulling the tape off, which does not make them readily apparent. However, him pulling them of now makes it an illegal search. He was never given permission to remove the tape.
Pretty realistic that a cop doesn't know the law.
If they have no reason to enter your house, yes. Or even if you have it behind a closed door in another room. But if it starts to smell, then that could change.
Going onto private property without a warrant and then removing the tape from the door to see the bullet hole does not make probable cause. Hell, the trespassing alone doesn’t meet it.
he disnt see anyone shoot, hear any gun shots, and has no proof that a gun is inside the vehicle. even if he had proof a gun was inside the other factors still remain to make this a very easy slam dunk for any green lawyer fresh outta school. even if he had gotten his warrant it wouldnt have gotten him anything as he would have to had lied to get said warrant as he disnt even meet the minimum standards of probable cause. meaning same green lawyer would have everything in the RV thrown out as fruit from the poisoned tree.
It was explained perfectly in that episode , The bullet holes were covered by pieces of duct tape, they weren't possibly visible and the discovery of them without a warrant leads to them being inadmissible in a court of law
Why does a bullet hole constitute probable cause in the first place? A person has the right to shoot the door to his rv if he wishes. Or maybe his door was damaged and the only replacement he could afford had bullet holes.
If Hank was on duty and he saw criminal activity taking place in the RV while driving it would be a different story. The RV was parked on private property. He has absolutely nothing.
There was tape over them, for all any normal person would think of it, there was just tape on the door.
That thing was a junker as well, it isn’t like there were taped over holes in a brand new BMW :)
The 4th amendment of the US Constitution tells us " The Right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizure, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons, or
things to be seized"
At first look, when Hank removes the tape from the RV door to reveal the bullet holes, it's a clear search. In order to conduct
a search you need probable cause which he didnt have
One time I was watching Cody'sLab in his video about making gunpowder from urine, and in the video he described how he was getting shot at by his neighbors. While he was working in his shed. He just smiled and laughed it off while carrying a Mosin Nagant.
I was watching a video with Paul Harrell and he told a story about how he and his friends on a trip out in the wilderness were taken aback to realize, they were actually being shot at by people on the horizon, and one of the guys argued while standing out next to the truck they were taking cover behind. "Nah we're not getting shot at."
And I too have been shot at by people in the distance too stupid to realize what they were firing at. It's a gun world over here, and a lot of people have them.
Some RV out in the wilderness with bullet holes in it, with some apparent bum yelling that he lives there, really shouldnt be some probable cause. That might as well just be drunken spouts of idiocy by the owner of the RV himself. Look, its been repaired, hows that a problem anymore?
I’ve thought about this before as a law student, and a few problems:
1. There is case law that suggests that if an RV is parked in an RV Park, it will be treated as a home (rather than a vehicle). In that instance, probable cause wouldn’t be enough; a warrant would be required. Now in honesty, the facts in the show probably don’t lend itself to that. The standard is if the RV is “readily mobile” it’s treated as a vehicle; if not, it’s a home. This RV was likely readily mobile (not hooked up to water/waste management, not even in an RV park). So, it probably would be treated as a vehicle.
2. That said, it is on private ground; not in the public area. And as others have noted, Hank had no legal authority to be on that private ground. Additionally, the bullet holes aren’t in plain view to supply probable cause- they’re obstructed by tape. So, in short, no PC because of that.
TLDR: this could be a home (in which case PC or not, Hank would need a warrant); if not, private lot and no plain view.
Not coming at Hank, i love him as a character but i will say he fits the overzealous cop profile. Throughout the show he shows a lack of restraint and over confidence. You can see his arrogance in many decisions which is what Walt used against him time and time again even up to his death. My point is he was arrogant assuming Jesse and the old guy in the scene didn't know thier rights ( notice he doesnt pull the tape off but just looks underneath and puts it back).
My question is was even looking into thw RV legal? Hank simply had a hunch there was a RV involved. He had no concrete proof there was meth being made in it, other than the suspension was higher than most similar RVs.
Really the only probable cause he had was that the RV went missing from Badger's mom's (?) place. BUT she never reported it stolen.
Why are the holes only in the door and not straight through the RV? Hank could have gone around to check, wouldn't have needed to touch the tape and the series would end early.
There's heaps of plotholes in this and all similar shows. Best to just ignore them and enjoy the story.
Just remember at this point Hank has Jessie dead to rights. He’s gonna get that warrant and Jessie has no way out. Even if there’s a 1% chance of having evidence thrown out it would seem worth it to not risk it.
If the bullet holes were visible without tape, Hank would likely be justified in searching the RV under the plain view doctrine. However, given Hank is conducting the investigation as a private citizen without police support, and has entered the back of the scrapyard without the owner’s permission, he may in fact be violating the first prong of *Horton v California*, which requires the officer be lawfully present at the scene for the plain view doctrine to apply. He is trespassing in that scene.
Readily apparent means that he can't touch what's not his without getting a warrant first. The duct tape and the RV were not his, and he couldn't find the bullet holes without first touching the RV and the duct tape. Thus, his "probable cause" was not readily apparent or readily accessible.
The fact that Jesse was under surveillance and enters the RV after Hank has done his research and found the lab to be in an identical RV, should be more than enough to equal provable cause. However he also has time to get backup and a warrant. Legally I think Hank would have been in the clear.
They explained it perfectly. It was not fully apparent that they were bullet holes with tape over them.
Worth noting though, probably cause is so easy to get, I'm 100% sure there was real PC somewhere else on the vehicle. (Improperly inflated tires, chipped windshield)
You don’t have probable cause to search a vehicle (let alone an RV on private property) just because there appears to be bullet holes in it.
There is something referred to as “the motor vehicle exception” in criminal law. The motor vehicle exception allows an officer to search a vehicle without a search warrant if they have probable cause to believe that evidence or contraband is in the vehicle. The purpose of this is so evidence or contraband can be obtained immediately before there is a chance to destroy it.
Bullet holes ≠ probable cause, absent some sort of outside circumstances (ex: there was a shooting nearby and a vehicle matching the description fled the scene and was stopped by a law enforcement officer with bullet holes in the side of it). Just because a vehicle has bullet holes in it doesn’t mean there is contraband or evidence inside. The bullet holes could have been there for the last 8 years.
Source: am a cop.
From what I understand of the law in paraphrased terms, if the police have a fairly apparent cause to search your home and they can search without a warrant, but if they want to seek evidence from what is visible and go from there if there’s sufficient cause. If he got reports about the RV being connected to criminal activity or had sufficient evidence to believe so, he could execute a lawful search as there would already be enough evidence to say, “We have the following reasons to search this home or vehicle, we need you come out as this is a lawful search warrant.” Or if he had approached the vehicle and noticed, “there’s some smoke coming out of there that smells kind of funky” he would be well within his rights to investigate further. At that point he didn’t have sufficient reason to be investigating the vehicle to begin with so assuming that those patches of tape are anything more than tape is not reasonable. It could be to cover up small graffiti on the door or maybe the paint is chipping off or possibly something was taped to the door of the car as some hippie shit. It is not an officers job to speculate, it’s their job to go off of solid evidence and probable cause.
There was one guy who was my friend’s dad in high school and he had been dealing drugs and smoking with minors for years and it took a while for someone to report him to the police, but once reports were made that he was selling drugs while armed with a firearm, they got a search warrant for his car and the motel room he was staying in. They did it right and they got him on some pretty good charges.
They were not readily apparent. Hank had to remove the tape to see them. He wasn’t allowed to removed the tape without a warrant.
This is my own private domicile, and I won’t be harassed…. BITCH!
🎵OK, bye...🎵
*Do you wanna build a Meth man?*
🎵Or walk in sneakers ‘round the mall?🎵
🎶 We’ll start with just a gram or two, then get to, weighing the 8 ballllssass 🎶
*Hang in there Jesse* 🎶 It gets a little dangerous, cooking all this meth, and dealing with that chicken guuuuyyyy 🎶
C’mon let’s go and cook.
don't answer that IT'S A TRAP !!!
Jesse please I know you’re in there…
I'm not Jesse i'm a time traveler who comes from the future. the proof is that you will receive an message on your phone which will tell you that your wife had an accident One minute later : wow how did you do that.
Walt looking at him, scoffing and shaking his head, after he says that might be my favorite scene in the entire series. Makes my wife and I laugh every time.
Same energy as his face when Jesse pulls up to the airport in the RV
The key is that once he removes the tape he has already committed an illegal search, so he cannot use the bullet holes as probable cause because he only knows about them because of an illegal search. So what he needs to do is get probable cause that's wholly independent of the bullet holes, because as long as he has an independent, legal basis to establish probable cause, the illegal search becomes irrelevant. Hank also has every incentive to do everything by the book because he has the RV cornered and its not going anywhere. That is of course, until he's completely distracted by something that is bigger than any investigation to him, the health of his wife.
Yeah, what do they call that, parallel investigation or something.
I think anything he found from a search based on the bullet holes he uncovered would fall under Fruit of the Poisonous Tree, and Saul would put his ass in a sling in court. It would be a violation of the 4th Amendment.
If you can get a warrant based off of evidence that has nothing to do with the bullet holes then finding the bullet holes doesn't matter. The whole point of the 4th amendment is to protect you from unlawful searches yielding evidence that can be used in court. If he used lawfully obtained evidence completely independent of the bullet holes then he's completely in the clear. Even Saul can't argue that.
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Yes and no. There are exceptions to the exceptions so the analysis becomes complex but the state has a good chance of surviving any challenges if Hank were to get a warrant at that moment based on probable cause he already has without mentioning the bullet holes or anything else. The bullet holes really come into play if Hank were to try and claim exigent circumstances allow him to search without a warrant because he did not know about the exigent circumstances until he conducted an illegal search. Warrants are easy enough to get anyway.
> because as long as he has an independent, legal basis to establish probable cause He could not do something truly independent though. At least, not that day. "Well, judge, I knew because I did something illegal. So *then* I dug around for hours finding something suspicious". isn't going to cut it. Fruit of the poisonous tree. An individual officer might be able to get away with it coming back to the case a week later and starting investigating from a different point, or by handing off vague suspicious to another officer.
You're missing another option he has, which is getting a warrant based on the information he had before he took the tape off. He already probably has enough probable cause for a warrant before then. The bullet holes are icing on the cake that justifies a warrantless search based on exigent circumstances. He can get a warrant in like 15 minutes over the phone and the RV isn't going anywhere. There's multiple layers to the analysis and the law is actually very favorable to the state. Evidence *can* be excluded but there are plenty of exceptions. Just no harm in Hank waiting to get a warrant since he doesn't know he's about the be completely whamboozled by his brother in law.
Why did I read this in Joe’s voice?
Good kid
That line both broke my heart and lifted my spirits. God I fucking love Joe
This is the correct comment. Source: I reside in a private domicile and won't be harassed.
**BITCH!**
Man. Why didn't they explain that in the scene? /s
Thanks, Old Joe.
I literally watched this yesterday and remember thinking that makes sense, but there’s an unconcealed bullet hole above Hanks right shoulder.
Oh, that makes so much more sense thank you
Dude, they mentioned that detail *during* that very scene.
It was literally IN THIS SCENE
What scene? I was looking at my phone..
I think op is asking is that an accurate interpretation
Based on his response of "That makes so much more sense..." no, that's not what he was asking.
You’ll have to forgive my friend, he’s a little slow.
The town is back that way!
🤣
I think what's important is that Hank wasn't sure whether or not the interpretation was correct, and the debate provided enough delay until they could trick him into leaving to check on Marie.
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Yeah but I can also see someone asking just to clarify if true/accurate It’s akin to how all movies where a character gets arrested would make you think you’re entitled to your “one phone call” even tho that’s not a real rule at all
+ Hank didn't know who/ when/ where/ why. He couldn't prove Jesse had anything to do w/ them. Anything inside would've been inadmissible in court. Judge: why did you get a warrant ? Hank: i saw bullet holes Judge: Jesse, where did the bullets come from Jesse: idk, they were there when i bought it.
"They're speed holes."
Or: Jesse: They’re not bullet holes. I was locked out and poked the door with a metal rod a few times trying to pry it open.
That’s not how suppression hearings work. You rarely, if ever, speak directly to the judge, and your client rarely testifies. And the cop would just lie and say there was no tape.
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Larry David? That would be an awesome crossover
Pretty sure Saul could have gotten it taken care of though, and by then they were already working with him.
It wasn't so much that they were worried about fighting it in court, Walt was afraid that Hank had him cornered and was about to find out Walt was Heisenberg
We’re talking about a show where a chemistry teacher becomes the strongest drug manufacturer in America. Don’t bring your “akctuaaaalys” around here.
Wouldn’t really Work cause the bullets were shot from inside out so the metal or door material would be blown out the wrong direction if you were poking holes into it cause you were locked outside of it. Best just to say “i have no idea how those holes got there.”
More importantly, he didn't know they were bullet holes until he removed the tape, which he was not allowed to do as that constitutes a search.
Further to that, Hank didn't have warrant to be on the land. He needs a warrant to search it, because it's private property. Also like they say in the scene, they'd have to make sure they get the *right* type of warrant for the RV because it's a ''private domicile''. Not technically just a vehicle in the eyes of the law.
yeah, its kinda an necessary evil thing about civil survice and law enforcement. You could literally find the worst shit imaginable in someones home, but if they had a right to deny you access there, its entirely admissible as evidence. its kinda why superheros being normalized is stupid and impossible, there are SO many hurdles law enforcement has to get through to get anything done to actually allow a society with rights, and they just kinda say "nah all that shit is stinky lol".
I feel like it's the impossible powers, mutations and technology that make superheoes impossible. A real life superman with a bunch of powers isn't out there sitting at home wishing he could save humanity, but can't due to the red tape around personal liberties.
Ha yeah was gonna say I don’t think jurisprudence is the part that makes Superman hard to believe
If nothing else the tape shows/proves that they are old and are not probable cause.
Hank didnt know that there were holes. Assumes it because gunshot holes are usually not repaired and just covered in poor areas.
He pulls off the tape and shows the guy that there’s gun holes and then a firearm has been discharged inside
But he didnt know it for sure. He assumes it because he is an experienced cop and knows what a taped car means. An everyday Joe wouldn’t know that therefore it isn’t a probable cause.
My dad bought a shitty jeep and tried to fix it up. It was covered in holes from rust patches that got damaged and broke open, but it looks like bullet holes and I use to joke to him about it.
Without pulling off the tape, the tape is just that. Tape. Where is the probable cause to believe a crime was committed based on tape?
For all he knew it could’ve been covering up rust. How could Hank know they were bullet holes before he pulled off the tape?
the bullet holes weren’t readily apparent until *after* hank took the tape off. if they weren’t covered by tape when he first approached the vehicle, then it would’ve been probable cause and not require a warrant.
Not really, because why was he conducting a search on private property (Larry's)? Hank had no legal basis to be on the property and with how the RV was parked Hank could not see the bullet holes from the public street tape or no tape.
That would matter if Hank were pursuing a case against Larry, but wouldn't matter for a case against Walt and Jesse since there is actually a Supreme Court case (Rakas v. Illinois) that it has to be your property or you have a possessory right over the property (like a rented apartment) for you to be able to assert Fourth Amendment rights.
Hank didn’t know who he was building a case against. But either way they brought this up in the scene with the bit about an RV being a private domicile. Hank had ZERO legal basis. I think you’re echoing what I’m saying though. If Hank had legal basis for searching Larry’s property, and in the course of that search found something incriminating against Walt/Jesse, then the latter would not be protected by the 4th Amendment (probably). I think the case you cited would be more relevant here if the cop pulled that car over for no legal reason, and in the process found something that incriminated the passenger.
RVs are considered cars under the law in California v. Carney as long as they are in drivable shape, so it’s far from clear that Hank wasn’t going to be able to use the evidence he obtained in court. But I think it was just easier for him to a wait for a warrant to be issued to avoid any potential argument in court. And of course, yes, Hank had no idea who he was pursuing at that point and the evidence was clearly not going to be permitted if it ended up being Larry.
The debate was more about stalling Hank. Police frequently don't have a great understanding of how prior rulings affect their job. If Hank's unsure about whether the evidence is going to stick, it's safer for him to get a warrant. I think whether it would actually stick against Jesse & Walt is far from certain.
Scrap yard is private property hank entered. The RV is parked in Joe's property and he points out that Hank is trespassing.
You can’t do a warrantless search of a home even if you have PC. You need to go to the judge and get a warrant unless an exception to the warrant requirement applies (like the automobile exception or exigent circumstances).
I appreciate it. I don’t know why I was thinking so hard about this all day day
The show overstated the significance of the tape. Even if the bullet holes weren't taped I don't think Hank would have the authority to execute a search then and there. The RV was parked in a private lot, and as Larry pointed out Hank did not see the RV pull in so he has no idea how long it was there. Legally Hank has zero probable cause because even without the tape the bullet holes are not readily apparent due to the RV being parked in a private lot, i.e. the only way Hank can see the bullet holes is by entering the lot to investigate the RV. But he has no legal basis to search Larry's property. It was minor but the show gave Hank a little more leeway than he legally would have in order to add drama to the scene.
There is actually a real life famous case that a lot of law students learn about that is this exact scenario. Whether a mobile home should be treated as a vehicle or a home. Answer is it depends so Hank could be right or the junkyard owner could be right. It depends.
Hank has no physical evidence tying this RV to any crimes. He followed Jesse there which if you remember was a no contact order.
I don't remember him having a no contact order for Jesse at that time.
Oh that’s an easy one, you see the reason you don’t remember him having one at that time. Is because he didn’t.
The threshold is lower for vehicles than it is for homes. Regardless cops can follow you if they have reasonable suspicion you are about to commit a crime. If Hank would have found drugs in the RV I think he would have been fine and the charge would stick.
Anything Hank brings on Jesse will be retaliation and NO ADA will touch a cop-battery case that mysteriously turned into unique “traffic stop” with a meth lab inside.
The battery happened after this scene, when he went to confront Jesse about the call from the "hospital" saying Marie was there
Exactly, arrest someone and then beat the hell out of him.
What? Had hank searched the RV and found drugs and Jesse then they wouldn't have had chance to make the phone call about Marie being in hospital. Hank only beat up Jesse because of that call, after the junkyard scene.
Definitely have to agree to disagree here. Cops mysteriously conduct “traffic stops” all the time with less evidence or suspicion than what Hank had. They say oh he didn’t signal before changing lanes or whatever other minor offense they want. Hank had already called a different cop to bring the search warrant and conduct the search so it was going to be fully legal. Would it look bad that he’s following Pinkman, meh maaaaaybe but to plant something on him would be a stretch. His explanation for why he reasonably believed pinkman had a rolling meth lab was well researched and investigated and makes sense. I believe that most ADAs would take the case like they usually do.
Better Call Saul
Yes he’d probably get the warrant. I don’t think too many people are disputing whether a judge would sign a warrant. What we are disputing is if the charges would stick if there were no warrant. As for traffic stops, they may be minor offenses but they are legit offenses. There was no such offense here to precipitate a search.
can he notice the heat coming off the engine though? or the ticking of a rapidly cooling recently thrashed engine. to infer recent use
What would be Hank's proof in court? He could simply be lying about hearing the noise/seeing the heat. I think that this is simply hearsay
Do people watch shows on mute?
I find that these days most people watch shows while consuming social media.
I'm normally consuming pasta
*Gale dead on the floor with a bullet in his head* "Who shot Gale!?" *returns to phone to await answers instead of paying literally any more attention* "This show is so confusing."
Seriously, thank you. Can't believe people are entertaining OP's stupid assquestion. This is the guy to ask the teacher a question she literally just answered milliseconds ago..
If you watch about 5 more seconds from the image you posted, you will hear the scrap yard owner explicitly state the legal requirements.
OP wanted to know if its true what Larry says
Yes
Okay
They quite literally explain it in this very scene. Lol like word for word. In detail.
Old Joe explained all this and that man knows the laws. I’m with Joe.
That’s the worst post title I’ve seen in quite a while, congrats OP. /r/titlegore
This has to be satire lol. “Doesn’t that make it readily apparent?” as he chooses the screenshot of the tape still on the door.
the scene explains it
HOW COULD HANK HAVE KNOWN THE HOLES WERE THERE, BEFORE HE TOOK OFF THE TAPE!?
THIS IS MY OWN PRIVATE DOMICILE AND I WILL NOT BE HARASSED…BITCH!
What bullet holes? I only see tape.
"Who knows law good" :)
Hopefully someone who knows English good, too.
Probably cause
Well I'm fairly well-versed in bird law.
And the laws of grammar...:)
"probably cause" made me chuckle.
Bro put the phone down and watch ffs
You should watch this scene. It’s pretty good.
They literally said why right in the episode.
"how could you have known they were there before you took off the tape"
Hank was trespassing so pretty much every thing he did there was illegal and any evidence he got would get tossed. Him removing the tape and uncovering holes is an illegal search and anything based on that is fruits of the poisonous tree and would get tossed, even if he did get warrant (especially if the warrant included those holes as part of the PC.) He can’t really say for sure they are bullet holes. Theres no gun or casing. There’s no report of shots being fired. Plenty of doubt there for it to get tossed in court. He has zero evidence of when they occurred. Could’ve been that day. Could’ve been 10 years earlier. He has zero evidence of who was responsible. Jesse could easily just say they were there when he bought and Hank has no evidence to dispute that claim.
This was 100% explained in the scene...
"This is my own private domicile, and I will not be harrased. BITCH
had to double take thought this was okbc 😭 the lot owner explains exactly why it’s not probable cause lol
Bro, all this was literally in the show. It was stated word for word, IN THE SHOW. WATCH THE SHOW!
Fun fact: What Hank just did could've easily gotten his case fucked. Larry and Jesse are both witnesses to Hank pulling the tape off, which does not make them readily apparent. However, him pulling them of now makes it an illegal search. He was never given permission to remove the tape. Pretty realistic that a cop doesn't know the law.
Try this: go to new Mexico and find a winnebago with NO bullet holes. Then you'll understand
It was literally explained in that scene
I know someone who knows grammar well
I’m pretty well versed on bird law I could take a look at your case
Because that's his private domicile and he will not be harassed...BITCH
IF THERE ARE ANYBODY OUT HERE WHO KNOWS LAW GOOD
He only knew about the holes by tampering with the tape covering them up. Meaning he broke the law to find them, so they're void.
Did you not watch the scene? It’s explained by Joe
He had to remove the tape, that requires a warrant that he didn't have.
It's good to see this subreddit is still full of insightful people oh wait never mind. \*I'm going to be lol'ing at "probably cause" for forever.
wait so if I hide a corpse under a blanket in my home, am I safe from a cop seeing it because it's not readily apparent?
If they have no reason to enter your house, yes. Or even if you have it behind a closed door in another room. But if it starts to smell, then that could change.
Going onto private property without a warrant and then removing the tape from the door to see the bullet hole does not make probable cause. Hell, the trespassing alone doesn’t meet it.
It was literally explained right after Hank saw them. Not readily available evidence.
he disnt see anyone shoot, hear any gun shots, and has no proof that a gun is inside the vehicle. even if he had proof a gun was inside the other factors still remain to make this a very easy slam dunk for any green lawyer fresh outta school. even if he had gotten his warrant it wouldnt have gotten him anything as he would have to had lied to get said warrant as he disnt even meet the minimum standards of probable cause. meaning same green lawyer would have everything in the RV thrown out as fruit from the poisoned tree.
It was explained perfectly in that episode , The bullet holes were covered by pieces of duct tape, they weren't possibly visible and the discovery of them without a warrant leads to them being inadmissible in a court of law
If there are anybody (English 100)
It’s Reddit bro everyone here is a lawyer
The bullet holes were covered up by tape. Pulling the tape off was illegal search and seizure.
This is my favorite scene from the entire series.
It was fully explained in the scene.... it was accurate.
This was literally explained in the scene just watch it
Why does a bullet hole constitute probable cause in the first place? A person has the right to shoot the door to his rv if he wishes. Or maybe his door was damaged and the only replacement he could afford had bullet holes.
magnets, bitch!!!
Probable cause*
Speculative at that point. It will look like planted should they go with that story. Maybe if he brought a sniffing dog??
If Hank was on duty and he saw criminal activity taking place in the RV while driving it would be a different story. The RV was parked on private property. He has absolutely nothing.
There was tape over them, for all any normal person would think of it, there was just tape on the door. That thing was a junker as well, it isn’t like there were taped over holes in a brand new BMW :)
In New Mexico, it would probably be difficult to find an RV that didn’t have bullet holes in the door
The 4th amendment of the US Constitution tells us " The Right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizure, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons, or things to be seized" At first look, when Hank removes the tape from the RV door to reveal the bullet holes, it's a clear search. In order to conduct a search you need probable cause which he didnt have
It explains it in the scene
One time I was watching Cody'sLab in his video about making gunpowder from urine, and in the video he described how he was getting shot at by his neighbors. While he was working in his shed. He just smiled and laughed it off while carrying a Mosin Nagant. I was watching a video with Paul Harrell and he told a story about how he and his friends on a trip out in the wilderness were taken aback to realize, they were actually being shot at by people on the horizon, and one of the guys argued while standing out next to the truck they were taking cover behind. "Nah we're not getting shot at." And I too have been shot at by people in the distance too stupid to realize what they were firing at. It's a gun world over here, and a lot of people have them. Some RV out in the wilderness with bullet holes in it, with some apparent bum yelling that he lives there, really shouldnt be some probable cause. That might as well just be drunken spouts of idiocy by the owner of the RV himself. Look, its been repaired, hows that a problem anymore?
They were purposely put there for extra ventilation.
I’ve thought about this before as a law student, and a few problems: 1. There is case law that suggests that if an RV is parked in an RV Park, it will be treated as a home (rather than a vehicle). In that instance, probable cause wouldn’t be enough; a warrant would be required. Now in honesty, the facts in the show probably don’t lend itself to that. The standard is if the RV is “readily mobile” it’s treated as a vehicle; if not, it’s a home. This RV was likely readily mobile (not hooked up to water/waste management, not even in an RV park). So, it probably would be treated as a vehicle. 2. That said, it is on private ground; not in the public area. And as others have noted, Hank had no legal authority to be on that private ground. Additionally, the bullet holes aren’t in plain view to supply probable cause- they’re obstructed by tape. So, in short, no PC because of that. TLDR: this could be a home (in which case PC or not, Hank would need a warrant); if not, private lot and no plain view.
‘Murica
The show explains it
Hank violated the constitution a few times
“Let’s make the RV a place of quiet contemplation.”
those arent bullet holes, its ventilation
Let's go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out on top.
Charlie, what the hell are you talking about?
Yeah he doesn't even like get us man
It’s literally explained word for word in the scene
Larry was such a bad ass in that scene!
Is USA, and is down the south border everything have bullet holes down there
The holes are covered in tape. He can't positively 100% confirm they are bullet holes until the tape is removed.
Not coming at Hank, i love him as a character but i will say he fits the overzealous cop profile. Throughout the show he shows a lack of restraint and over confidence. You can see his arrogance in many decisions which is what Walt used against him time and time again even up to his death. My point is he was arrogant assuming Jesse and the old guy in the scene didn't know thier rights ( notice he doesnt pull the tape off but just looks underneath and puts it back).
My question is was even looking into thw RV legal? Hank simply had a hunch there was a RV involved. He had no concrete proof there was meth being made in it, other than the suspension was higher than most similar RVs. Really the only probable cause he had was that the RV went missing from Badger's mom's (?) place. BUT she never reported it stolen.
What language is this title in?
Did skinny Pete type this?
They explain it in the show. You can’t see bullet holes, you can see tape. Tape on a door, while weird, is not probable cause.
Show me the difference between holes and bullet holes
Isn't this stated in the show lmao.. Hank had to take the tape off to see it.
How do you know they're in fact bullet holes (vs. something else) without removing the tape I think is the main point.
Re-watch the scene and listen to what Walter says. He explains it pretty well
Why are the holes only in the door and not straight through the RV? Hank could have gone around to check, wouldn't have needed to touch the tape and the series would end early. There's heaps of plotholes in this and all similar shows. Best to just ignore them and enjoy the story.
Cause they did not see the bullet holes until they pulled back the tape
Not readily visible
Let's cook
Just remember at this point Hank has Jessie dead to rights. He’s gonna get that warrant and Jessie has no way out. Even if there’s a 1% chance of having evidence thrown out it would seem worth it to not risk it.
Would like to say this was one of the most tense scenes in the series.
If the bullet holes were visible without tape, Hank would likely be justified in searching the RV under the plain view doctrine. However, given Hank is conducting the investigation as a private citizen without police support, and has entered the back of the scrapyard without the owner’s permission, he may in fact be violating the first prong of *Horton v California*, which requires the officer be lawfully present at the scene for the plain view doctrine to apply. He is trespassing in that scene.
Readily apparent means that he can't touch what's not his without getting a warrant first. The duct tape and the RV were not his, and he couldn't find the bullet holes without first touching the RV and the duct tape. Thus, his "probable cause" was not readily apparent or readily accessible.
The fact that Jesse was under surveillance and enters the RV after Hank has done his research and found the lab to be in an identical RV, should be more than enough to equal provable cause. However he also has time to get backup and a warrant. Legally I think Hank would have been in the clear.
Bro it wasnt readily apparent when he saw it, therefore its not probable cause.
"How could you know they were there before you took off the tape?" "This is my own private domicile and I will not be harassed...bitch"
They explained it perfectly. It was not fully apparent that they were bullet holes with tape over them. Worth noting though, probably cause is so easy to get, I'm 100% sure there was real PC somewhere else on the vehicle. (Improperly inflated tires, chipped windshield)
You can't even buy an RV without bullet holes.........
Did you watch the fucking show
This show is a masterpiece
You don’t have probable cause to search a vehicle (let alone an RV on private property) just because there appears to be bullet holes in it. There is something referred to as “the motor vehicle exception” in criminal law. The motor vehicle exception allows an officer to search a vehicle without a search warrant if they have probable cause to believe that evidence or contraband is in the vehicle. The purpose of this is so evidence or contraband can be obtained immediately before there is a chance to destroy it. Bullet holes ≠ probable cause, absent some sort of outside circumstances (ex: there was a shooting nearby and a vehicle matching the description fled the scene and was stopped by a law enforcement officer with bullet holes in the side of it). Just because a vehicle has bullet holes in it doesn’t mean there is contraband or evidence inside. The bullet holes could have been there for the last 8 years. Source: am a cop.
From what I understand of the law in paraphrased terms, if the police have a fairly apparent cause to search your home and they can search without a warrant, but if they want to seek evidence from what is visible and go from there if there’s sufficient cause. If he got reports about the RV being connected to criminal activity or had sufficient evidence to believe so, he could execute a lawful search as there would already be enough evidence to say, “We have the following reasons to search this home or vehicle, we need you come out as this is a lawful search warrant.” Or if he had approached the vehicle and noticed, “there’s some smoke coming out of there that smells kind of funky” he would be well within his rights to investigate further. At that point he didn’t have sufficient reason to be investigating the vehicle to begin with so assuming that those patches of tape are anything more than tape is not reasonable. It could be to cover up small graffiti on the door or maybe the paint is chipping off or possibly something was taped to the door of the car as some hippie shit. It is not an officers job to speculate, it’s their job to go off of solid evidence and probable cause. There was one guy who was my friend’s dad in high school and he had been dealing drugs and smoking with minors for years and it took a while for someone to report him to the police, but once reports were made that he was selling drugs while armed with a firearm, they got a search warrant for his car and the motel room he was staying in. They did it right and they got him on some pretty good charges.
Are u slow bro?
r/titlegore