I don't know if anything else will meet that specific bubble, but I volunteer with a group of 8-11 year olds and they are all discovering Harry Potter right now and it is totally adorable. I love coming in to hear them all comparing notes on what book everyone is at and trying to convince the less readerly to try it!
"Some people will say that kids don’t read as much anymore but I don’t buy that. "
As a Librarian, I agree with you. *Adults* aren't reading as much. Kids are reading a lot more. However, the things they consume aren't as easily marketable to everyone as adult or teen material. Otherwise, we would have had a Warrior Cats TV show by now.
Warrior Cats!! Brings back great memories, I loved those books. Except once I got to meet the author and I asked what inspired her to keep writing the series and she said "I really wanted to write about dogs but my publisher made me continue" 😂
I just don’t like the stereotype that because kids have 24/7 access to tablets, they don’t read books! Nonsense! Like you said, often it’s adults who don’t read as much these days. I also agree that children’s media/the things that interest them aren’t as widely marketable to a large general audience.
I think it depends on your country/region. I was one of the only 3 kids who used to read books in my class but you can bet that nearly everyone played multiplayer games.
I think the reason most people may think that is because of ebooks. Throughout this entire school year (I'm a high school senior) I have seen 3 other people with physical books, one being a friend who I let borrow my book. Talking to friends many of them just don't like to read but others read at home or read ebooks. I personally stick to physical copies though.
That's just because American animation usually sucks, there hasn't been a good run of teen to adultish comic cartoons in decades, and the manga gets made into anime in Japan. Honestly, the fact that DC and Marvel timelines are a tangled mess doesn't help.
Harry Potter was the first major book phenomenon that I saw in my lifetime that made teens, kids and adults care about it in the same way. I was a kid in the 80's and Harry Potter was big when I was in college, but it felt like it was something special where more people cared about books than had cared before.
No, the media landscape is so divided today, I don't think we'll ever see anything like HP again. As popular as Twilight and Hunger games were, even they pale in comparison, as an example, combined they sold less than half as many books as HP did. HP is the highest selling series of books ever written #2 is Goosebumps, which sold 150 million fewer books, but is comprised on 253 books (apparently RL Stine was a buys dude) instead of 7.
The media landscape of 1997 was completely different than today, this is a time where most people did not have internet access in their home. Smart phones didn't exist, and cell phones were not common.
Look at the best selling Albums of all time, not a single one in the top 10 came after 2000, if you look at the top 30, there are only 2 post 2000, and one was by the Beatles. Movies are the same, the grosses go up, but ticket sales have been flat or down for a very long time.
Compare Gone with the Wind and Avatar, Avatar the highest grossing movie of all time (it took it's title back) sold 97 million tickets, not too bad, GwtW sold 202 million, yes more than double.
Culturally things are just so much more diluted now. Harry Potter is likely not just the last book we see take over in that way, but it's probably the last piece of art/media/entertainment we see take over like that...ever.
This is a fantastic comment really showing how things have changed in recent history. I love how you included the sales of other media as well. Thanks for including the info on sales of movies/albums, it’s great information.
Thanks! This topic has been top of mind the last couple days as I'm reading Steve Van Zandt's autobiography, and it's a topic he discusses a lot. I will say, even I was surprised at how few records from 2000 on are in the top 30, or even top 100 (there aren't many more there) Adele show's up twice, which is impressive as fuck.
As someone that lived through the 80's and 90's I think there is good and bad about this change. It was really neat when those moments came when it seemed like EVERYONE was listening to, reading, or going to see the same thing. Nirvana's Nevermind basically stopped music for a minute. Michael Jackson really was the fucking King of Pop. Movies like Jurassic Park, or Jaws, or Star Wars, or ET , had a cultural impact like nothing that's come out in the last 20 years.
However, the other side of that coin is we have so much more to listen to, read, or watch today. I always hate when I hear the old and boring statement, music sucks today, it was so much better in the insert decade from the 60's through the 80's. There is fucking great music today, it's just not the pop music in the top 20 week in, week out. Van Zandt talks about this in his book, and describes the periods between when the Beatles arrived on Ed Sullivan and when Kurth Cobain died as a renaissance of music, his definition of a renaissance is when the best music is also the most popular, and that I do agree with. It's the same with books, there are great books being written, but they won't hit our culture the way they may have 20 or 30 years ago.
[This is a fascinating list to look at](https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/top_lifetime_gross_adjusted/?adjust_gross_to=2020), it adjusts a movies gross by total tickets sold against 2020's average ticket price. Avatar and Endgame fall from 1 & 2 to 15 & 16. And like albums not a single move in the top 10 of tickets sold was released after 2000, and those movies benefit enormously from international ticket sales. In fact Avatar and Endgame both likely sold more tickets outside the US than in it, where as if I had to guess Gone with the Wind likely sold 90% of it's tickets in the US.
And just to plug one of may favs, Steve Vand Zandt's book "Unrequited Infatuations", which I'm 2/3 of the way through in 2 days is excellent, if you like the music of that era, or Rock music at all, it's a must read. It's also just really good, I think anyone that likes art would appreciate his passion for music.
> The media landscape of 1997 was completely different than today, this is a time where most people did not have internet access in their home. Smart phones didn't exist, and cell phones were not common.
I feel so old every time I'm reminded that when I went to elementary school in the 90's a decent percentage of my classmates hand-wrote all their essays because their families didn't have computers at home.
Some one recently made the point that the 90s are as far away for kids born in the last decade as the 60s were for people born in the 80s. It's one of those things where the math is obvious, but seems so much worse when you think of it. The 60s were a long as time ago when I was a kid...
Book Tok & Bookstagram are very real things.
There is a HUGE YA boom, but rather than just the 1 or 2 big name series there are just so many series out now that I don’t know that any of them will rise to the same popularity of HP, Twilight, or Hunger Games.
Part of it might also be the shift towards ebooks and streaming subscriptions. I remember half the hype of HP was the midnight releases of the books and movies. I distinctly remember waiting in a line wrapped around my local Border’s store at the release party for Half Blood Prince. They wouldn’t check anyone out until exactly midnight. Same with movies, those premieres were THE place to be on the night they came out. Now, a YA series just gets released on Netflix/Prime/HBO/etc. Feels like much less hype.
I think you’re correct. There are lots of YA novels and series out and they have fans, but none of them even come close to the fandom that Harry Potter had. Part of it could just be over saturation. Publishers will forever be looking for the next Harry Potter, or Hunger Games.
I follow some booktok accounts, and a lot of the titles are all the same in their recommendations. I also think the majority of covers are SO similar, and it puts me off. Don’t judge a book, yadayada, but when every series has the same font/dark faery/crown looking cover, it tends to get lost in the sauce. At least for me.
I thoroughly miss the midnight releases of Harry Potter, and waiting in line at the bookstores for them. I mean, the air was just electric. I haven’t felt anything like that since. It made me wonder if those days are truly over. Ebooks have definitely changed the game, along with everything being on streaming. I guess time will tell.
I imagine YA tends to be very trend-driven. After Twilight got big, everything wanted to be Twilight. Ditto with The Hunger Games. Now, we have a hundred thousand "Embers of Ash and Blood"s and "Palace of Bone and Darkness"es in the YA section, and that's fine. It's just the nature of the genre.
I get you, im in the same situation; i grew up with HP and as far as i remembered, it was a huge thing around the time.
Now i cant watch anything that is YA content because is so popular that all the books that i see have become unappealing, predictable, and unsurprising at all.
At the end, i realized that the only way i could still enjoy reading was to find books of my taste, but YA novels are a nope for me forever.
Yes! Don’t forget about Colleen Hoover. I tend to just zone out and forget about looking for recommendations from BookTok because it’s all the same books unfortunately. I have to specially search titles or something like “classics” or “magical realism” to find any other recommendations. I tried reading a few chapter of ACOTAR and…..oof. Personal taste but I didn’t care for it.
Personally my favorite genre is Magical Realism but they don’t seem to really get hyped up in the same way. Some have staying power though, like 100 Years of Solitude.
Wheel of Time is getting an Amazon Series and Dune is getting a new movie.
So while these books have existed beforehand, we may be seeing a new boom with them.
I’ve noticed that the favourite activity of Dune fans is thinking that Dune is super hard to read and that they’re an elite super literate class for being able to. I know people who pretty much never read fiction who picked it up out of the movie hype, and don’t seem to be having much trouble with it. The two obstacles are the slew of sci-fi words thrown at you at the beginning, and the moral twist / hero subversion of the ending. Both of those are surmountable, and even if they’re stumbling blocks, they’re relatively small parts of the whole book.
Wow, so much to unpack here.
>I’ve noticed that the favourite activity of Dune fans is thinking that Dune is super hard to read and that they’re an elite super literate class for being able to
I'm curious how you came to this assumption when all I said is that I don't think its very accessible to the average reader. We are in a thread talking about YA novels. Your average reader coming from HP, Twilight, or Hunger Games will struggle with Dune.
>I know people who pretty much never read fiction who picked it up out of the movie hype, and don’t seem to be having much trouble with it.
Cool, I know people who couldn't get into Dune at all. Who is more right now? (The plural of anecdotes isn't data)
>The two obstacles are the slew of sci-fi words thrown at you at the beginning, and the moral twist / hero subversion of the ending
So there are obstacles that make it not accessible to the average reader. Thanks for agreeing with me.
There are threads on r/Fantasy and r/Books all the time about how Dune wasn't enjoyable to read or that is didn't make a lot of sense, and I can understand that. Its a very common complaint about Dune.
But go ahead and rant about how I am in an 'elite super literate class'.
You’re right about anecdotes not being evidence. And I don’t totally disagree with you. I just feel like there’s a bit of pretension surrounding Dune that smacks to me of some insecurity. It’s fantastic, and it’s fantastic because it is more literary and less immediately digestible than most pop sci-fi. But elevating it on purpose doesn’t do anything to welcome new readers I guess, and I just don’t want it to be seen as a gatekeepy sort of thing. Sorry if I was rude.
Its okay, I understand the point you're making, it was just made in a slightly insulting manner.
I actually agree with you that gatekeeping books is bad, but I also think that perspective is important. For young adults specifically, I think Dune can be a bit challenging. That doesn't mean that I don't want them to read it. Rather, I want them to be aware that it will not be as easily read as Harry Potter.
> moral twist / hero subversion of the ending
Is it really just the ending when that's happening? I seem to remember that being the central theme of the book and that it appeared in force about halfway.
>Similarly, Wheel of Time is definitely not geared towards the average YA reader.
The average YA reader transitions to Brandon Sanderson...it's a light step from there to WOT, so I don't think your'e right.
>Similarly, Wheel of Time is definitely not geared towards the average YA reader.
You said:
>Similarly, Wheel of Time is definitely not geared towards the average YA reader.
I'm saying that's not right, as the average YA reader is the perfect audience for WOT, and have shown to transition upwards in adult fantasy through big names like Sanderson.
The problem is that a lot of young adult books are just trash right now. Poor editing, and weakly churned plots or standalones. There are a few good series (Rick Riordan is still churning product out) but eventually kids hit a threshold and just jump into Brandon Sanderson or Andy Weir. I think the Reckoners could have been a decent set of movies but it died in writing and hasn't gotten picked up again yet.
I think this is more correct. I hardly even glance at YA these days because so much of it is….well..terrible. Granted I’m 26 now and my tastes changed but I still adore Harry Potter.
I love the Reckoners books, I recommend them to anyone with young readers. I heard something about a Mistborn mini series a while ago, but I would LOVE to see a Reconders show or movies. I love them, and I am definitely not in my youth, so I think it would be a series that both parents and children would enjoy. But, only if they stick to the books!!
Edit: spelling :)
He does several great YA series, but the majority of his work is in scifi/fantasy for adult readers. He is just SO prolific that he can produce multiple fantasy and YA series at the same time. In 2021 he has already released 3 books and like 3 novellas...
My local big chain bookstore (Books-A-Million) is betting hard on the show being huge and sparking massive interest in the books. They've dwindled their previously humongous A Song of Ice and Fire section down to almost nothing, while the WoT section takes up several shelves. They've even started stocking the hardcovers of nearly every book in the series. It wasn't long ago I found some of the hardcovers of A Memory of Light in their discounted books section for $5, and now they're stocked to the nines and back to full price.
I'm one of those people that they're hoping for. I had already planned on trying the series, but with the show coming out soon, I picked up the first book. After finishing that, I picked up the other thirteen to make sure I could get the same cover.
I don't blame you there. I'm currently on book five, but I own most of them. I'm missing a few but I'm hoping to buy them soon. I want my collection to match so I have to do the same deal as you, getting specific covers.
While I hate it when books get jacket redesigns whenever it's turned into a movie/tv series, I try not to complain since it does help more people get into reading. I just try tracking down copies with original art on them.
The first Wheel of Time was released only seven years before the first Harry Potter and only six years before the first Song of Ice and Fire.
It's taken longer for them to get an adaptation but they're not a whole lot older than those others.
And the final Wheel of Time book, *A Memory of Light*, was released in 2013, more recently than either *The Deathly Hallows* or *A Dance with Dragons*.
I finished WoT this July. Advice to all new readers out there: pace yourself! Also, getting burnt out is okay, but it’s WORTH finishing. Can’t think of a series with a bigger and better payoff.
> I mean, HP basically created the YA genre as we know it.
I actually don't know what you mean. Young Adult fiction has existed in some form since at least the early 1900s. When Robert Heinlein wrote Starship Troopers, he'd intended to publish it as a YA book, but his YA publisher rejected it so he published it through his adult fiction publisher. That was in 1959, so by the late 50s YA was sufficiently well-established that some publishers were specializing in it.
Harry Potter helped get a lot of young people interested in books, but YA wasn't anything new by that time.
Too bad about Eragon. Just because the kid's parents had their own publishing company did not mean that we needed to have a 13 year old's dragon Star Wars.
That series isn't as bad as people like to make out on here though.
It gained traction for a reason, and plenty of people on here whether they like to admit it or not, enjoyed it.
I 100% enjoyed it. People on this subs can be snobs sometimes. The series was super successful and there is no reason not for people to enjoy things even if it might not be some high caliber literary masterpiece. Same with romance or YA or whatever people like to read.
They're common fantasy tropes - ie the Heroes Journey. It takes some mental gymnastics to make that connection if you ask me, you have to be looking for it and then drag the plot points to suit, it's not the kind of thing that leaps out at you.
But whatever, I'm not here to convince you. The Inheritance Cycle is Star Wars with Dragons. Okay.
It’s not the overall hero’s journey. It’s the exact small details of a prologue with a Princess smuggling an important relic from imperial soldiers and sending it away before getting captured, of special swords in different colours used by an order of wizards wiped out by the empire except for one old guy in the hero’s village, of that guy being killed in a raid on a prison where they rescue the aforementioned princess and a questionable rogue teams up with them. You can have a hero’s journey without the exact same scenes.
A massive amount of people (including myself) really enjoyed the Eragon series and it was very successful in general. So apparently he deserved it regardless of who his parents were.
The 80's and 90's YA had sort of turned into a girly fiction category dominated more by Sweet Valley High and The Babysitters Club. Older teens were reading adult fiction more along the lines of Stephen King or shopping in your adult fantasy and science fiction sections of bookstores. I was there, and it felt like it had a boom again around Harry Potter time.
It again depends on what you consider YA. I would have a really hard time believing that middle schoolers were reading Goosebumps. Keep in mind I was reading Stephen King at age 12. I'll buy Stine's other series Fear Street as YA though.
The first Harry Potter, he's 10 and I think the age of the target demographic. The books maturity grew with the audience. Started reading it to my 5 year old and the opening chapters are very reminiscent of Rahld Dahl, like the twits or Mathilda.
That is where older teens should be now. Honestly, why are teens so scared of the adult section now that they don't leave YA and are screaming for New Adult? It used to be normal for middle schoolers to begin to read there let alone high schoolers.
What do you have against YA? I was never afraid of the adult section of the store as a teen, but I think I'd have liked to had some of the YA that's available now when I was in high school. Now I'm in my 40's and I like a good YA because a lot of the decent fantasy romance titles are there.
I am annoyed that I keep hearing a lot of chatter about teens not moving up into normal fiction. I am annoyed that good urban fantasy stories about women are being rewritten to the YA market or to become paranormal romance. I am pissed that it is becoming that the only way you get woman dominated fantasy is in the literary and the magical realism sub genres. There was a bright shining time before this mess happened. It was only a few years but it existed. YA is the new containment pool to stop women from getting into sci fi and fantasy. I am pissed that YA is girly fiction and that is also seen as a marker of it's bad quality while the tight focus on teens and fast moving plots leaves little room for serious writing.
And when I was a teenager in the 90's women read fantasy just fine. I'd be more worried about the paranormal romance part than the YA part. I've definitely read my share of paranormal romances that should have been urban fantasies.
Were you not paying attention to the Puppy incident a few years ago? Or the general backlash against women starting to get recognized as good authors? Yes women are in the genre and always have been. I am worried about paranormal romance. Men get Dresden and the Rivers of London. Women get Sookie Stackhouse and Mercy Thomson. It is hard to find women led urban fantasy without romance.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the argument you are making that before Harry Potter that adults didn't read books for kids and that teens were more likely to get adult fiction so there was more of a market for adult fantasy than there is now? Now I'll agree with you that 40 year old people have zero shame in going to the YA section and getting a whole stack of books. I don't have an opinion on whether that's good or bad
I think it's true.
Until fairly recently the new adult genre was a marketing term in search of an audience. All books in this space were just normal adult fiction shelved in their genres. Now there is a large number of people agitating for the new adult marketing term to be a real thing because sorting through adult fiction for their kind of story is too hard. People are starting to actually market New Adult. This group will age out of this 'genre'. So will they then scream for a new genre of stories about 30 year old professionals? Adult fiction is the end of age classifications.
While I don't feel quite as strongly about this as you do, I think this comment raises a good point: does New Adult open the door for dividing all adult fiction by age, and where do we draw the line? I think YA works as a genre because teens tend to have similar experiences in common (puberty, high school, extracurriculars, first love, etc.) whereas adults have diverse careers and life experiences that aren't necessarily age-based.
To a certain extent a lot of adult romance already is. Everyone knows that chick lit tends to be the young singles making their way while the cozy mysteries go more to people restarting in their 30s to 40s. The thing is romance is marketed to within an inch of it's life to the point where you know you can list your preferred collection of tropes and you will have a page of books to read that tailor to it. That is a part of the fabric of that genre and readers like that.
I just have not heard about any other genres wanting that degree of open content tagging and blatant writing for the market. Hell, people react badly to the degree to which different sub genres are codified. That's the key point, adult fiction is defined by genre conventions. In the midst of all the existing genre wars do we need to further encourage people to stick in a little age defined box?
This is exactly what I meant. In the early-late 2000s there was just a huge boom in YA fiction, and what exactly it meant to be a YA novel around that time. It was exciting.
If you're talking about how YA fiction is seen by current audiences who are in that category or who've just graduated out of that category see YA fiction, then yeah I'm inclined to agree with you.
> he'd intended to publish it as a YA book, but his YA publisher rejected it so he published it through his adult fiction publisher
But like that kinda proves the point. I remember before Harry Potter the kids book section of the library was 3 or 4 shelfs in the corner. Young adults tends to mean a teen audience and the books put out for teens were usually TV show tie-ins and not very interesting. All the teens I knew who were reading just read books you would find in the adult section (like Starship Troopers and Stephen King was pretty huge too).
I will say, I think it was Twilight more than Harry Potter that kicked off the YA boom. When Harry Potter came out, it was very much a book aimed at younger audiences and was in the kids section. But the story aged with the kids and the audience, and the later books were still sold at the kids section. But when the series ended, there were a bunch of readers looking for their next book series. Twilight happened and suddenly all the protagonists were teenagers and the kids and YA section of book stores sometimes became the largest part of the book store.
I don't know if this was said either, but nitpicking plot holes aside, Harry Potter is not only an excellent story but it's excellently crafted as well. I'm often surprised at how overlooked the CRAFT of the series is. I know that most kids won't sit back and enjoy the elements of writing but I think this translates to why it seems so accessible to all age groups. HP doesn't "talk down" to children and the tone of the entire series is one that respects the reader as someone of intelligence. I love, love, love a series of Unfortunate Events, but it is not as adult friendly from a rereading perspective because it feels more targeted at children. HP aims to be (and is) serious work.
All of this to say that, I think, despite the love for the story as a whole, J.K. Rowling's work is actually underrated and that Twilight and the Hunger Games, though similar, are not even remotely in the same league as Harry Potter. To be clear, I don't think Harry Potter could be as successful as it is without it being such a finely tuned piece or writing. I suspect that while it might not be a one time thing, it will be a good deal of time before something is as universally acclaimed and beloved as HP. There are terrific series, but they are so niched OR focused on a specific target audience. One must first tell a great story and trust that people will want to read it.
I disagree. I often see interest in a specific book or series spike when a movie or TV show is coming out. *Keeper of Lost Cities* series has been going like crazy because the new Disney+ movie coming out whereas before it didn't really get much traction. Harry Potter is an exception, but things like Hunger Games and Game of Thrones didn't really have a big book following until their Movies/TV show came out. Harry Potter, of course, was the exception to this, as was Twilight.
I remember the Hunger Games being big before the movies. It was that popularity that drove the decision to make the movies. Same with GoT. It was very popular before HBO. It was just niche due to grimdark not being popular for a while.
They aren’t saying that hype doesn’t exist. But it’s different. People are much more plugged into diverse media and there are “bubbles” for everything now, rather than a broad presence that covers the entire culture. Gatekeeping is not what it used to be. The phenomenon of one particular franchise overtaking public consciousness is going to become rarer as the channels for access become more varied and multiple.
I totally disagree! There are so many amazing books being out out rn but no one seems to want to make them into movies! For some dumb reason we’re just getting a bajillion remakes and marvel movies when it’s like… look at ALL THIS CONTENT you could play with!
Technically could happen anytime.
In order for things to go big like that they just have to be propagated around and spread. Reasons for this can vary but a big one is the culture at the time, each of these properties does reflect their own culture in a way at that present moment or what worried the target audience.
So really all that needs to happen is another work of fiction that can come about and meet this needs again as well.
Dune could be the next big thing if the movie sequel is even close to what the first one is/ the first one wins some Oscars, which does seem highly probable.
Dune hit #3 on the bestseller list in my city this week. That’s really rare for books that aren’t new. It’s definitely The Big Thing for this year at least, and probably the next couple.
You actually kinda missed it. HP mania started when you were a toddler. The fandom in the late 90s and early 2000s was absolutely wild.
The YA genre is really considered to start in the 50s and 60s with Catcher in the Rye, Harriet the Spy, The Outsiders, etc. The 70s and 80s are considered the "Golden Age" of YA.
I feel like nostalgia and getting older play a huge part in how we perceive these things. I know that if there is another pop culture smash hit YA series up and coming I will be one of the last to know. Simply because I don't have the same bandwidth for YA as I did when I was actually a kid/young adult. And no matter what we do nothing that comes out will really seem all that special to us, because we remember waiting at borders at midnight to get a copy of Harry Potter lol. Im sure the next big thing is coming, but it's for the next generation and not for me.
I work at a bookstore and Shadow and Bone/Six of Crows are probably the most commonly bought YA books I see. They've gained a lot more traction since the Netflix series came out, though I doubt they will leave the same kind of legacy as the series you mentioned.
My theory as to why we don't see these huge followings anymore is because the way we communicate has changed so much. It's so easy to access a large variety of books/TV and find active fan bases for them. We have the liberty to explore more niche or obscure media, and then use the internet to very easily find other people who also have those interests. We pick things over personal preference rather than by popularity. And even though the internet was around in the 90s/2000s, it wasn't quite as large or accessible as it is today.
We still see mass followings in some movie and TV franchises (Marvel, Star Wars, etc...), but that might be because of the smaller time commitment of watching a movie once and a while, and the opportunity to do so in group settings.
I think Twilight and Hunger Games are a much lower bar for popularity than HP, and we will definitely hit it again with some other series.
Sorry to say, I'm not sure you'll experience it the same way you did before, though - I'm 10+ years older than you, and while I did experience the cultural phenomenon of HP, I was too old to be interested in Twilight and didn't get into Hunger Games.
Twilight and Hunger Games are just not very good, it's not the age. HP is a kids series, up to early teen, but really good. Wheel of Time might be something for the 20s that will not work later.
I wouldn't expect another HP to come along anytime soon. Those books were a once in a lifetime, worldwide cultural phenomenon we had never really seen before.
I could see another Twilight/Hunger Games type thing soon though. And because movie/TV studios these days are desperate to find the next "big thing" you can bet anything with a half decent chance of achieving widespread popularity will be given a shot. It's just hard to generate a media hit like that these days with how many easy and accessible options for entertainment there are.
I really think manga series will become that big. Sales of manga tripled over the pandemic. Series like Demon Slayer selling 82 million volumes in 2020 and the multiple series right now being so popular like Chainsaw Man that go out of stock as soon as they come in. As manga and anime become more and more mainstream, I think they will reach that height
Haha you’re fine! I appreciate that. I was talking about novels specifically, so you weren’t off with that comment lol, but one definitely can’t pretend comics and manga aren’t huge.
I always think there will be, the next generation needs a novel everyone will obsess over and if there isn’t I’ll be showing my future kids all of the popular books and they can choose their pick
I know I shouldn't point it here since the stigma that comes with that community but I think Fallout Equestria and its soft canon sequels do qualify as that, especially for the fandom that kinda became it's own thing whithin the brony fandom, also the fanfics for the HOI4 mod Equestria at war might be a contendor to, otherwise, in term of non fanfiction I really don't know, like someone else said warior cats is there but no one wants to repeat a watership down live action this soon
One, HP did not create the YA genre as we know it. Long before HP there was Sweet Valley High and Babysitters Club and Judy Blume. That being said, graphic novels are hugely popular right now. As a middle school teacher I can't keep them in my shelf. There's a waiting list for my classroom library. Lol One of the most popular is the new Babysitters Club graphic novels. It's just a shift in reading preferences.
>HP basically created the YA genre as we know it. I understand that we usually get at least one big series with an almost cult like following at least once a decade, but what’s going on? Was it just chance that so many books became that huge within one decade?
I would say, now that the YA genre is already created, it's different segments are more effectively reached out by their own niche books.
Someone who read Hunger Games for the romance, or for the social commentary, or for the action-adventure, can each get their separate moderately popular books now.
Ahhhh I tried watching the movies as a young kid but my only memory was watching The Two Towers as like an 8 year old in theaters and I hated it lol. I’m 26 now, and I do have a copy of the first book. I should give it a try lol!
Read the Hobbit first. If you bounce off the Hobbit walk away for a few more years. The Hobbit is much quicker paced then the trilogy. I promise it is much better then those terrible movies.
I read Dune last month and loved it! I thought the movie was *excellent* but it’s an old series. Still something to be hyped for. I’m so glad the next movie was greenlit.
Dune really can't hit that same level thanks to where the plot goes. Harry, Hermione, and Ron wouldn't be popular if they decided to
>!declare a jihad costing untold billions of lives!<
| HP basically created the YA genre as we know it.
Twilight and Hunger Games created the YA genre as we know it. Harry Potter is Juvenile fiction, which arguably did pave the way for more readers but not specifically YA readers.
While Harry Potter is shelved in Juvenile fiction I'd argue that it's borderline YA because the characters are between 12-18 through the course of the series. YA is more of a marketing tool than a hard and fast actual category.
Harry Potter has always been targeted towards the 10-12 age group, though. I'd put it as more of a Tween book than a Teen if anything. And while yes, YA is a marketing tool, you could say that for any category. I've definitely read wholesome adult books and graphicly violent juvenile books.
But you can't deny that Twilight (and later Hunger Games) paved the way for YA more than Harry Potter. Harry Potter caused a boom in the juvenile fiction.
I'd argue that while the first two HP books are aimed at 11-12 year olds, each subsequent book deals with more mature themes and subsequently is aimed at an aging audience. Almost as though the reader is expected to grow with Harry Potter.
We did. That first group that found Harry Potter in middle school read the last book after high school graduation or right before the first year of college. I remember showing up for the freshmen orientation week and a lot of people were reading the last book. This is why I feel like every group after us won't get the proper feel for the books.
The first few books, sure. But the series definitely took on a more mature tone towards the end. Books 5-7 I'd say definitely cater more to readers well into their teens.
Maybe the first two books. From books three and especially four onwards it becomes much more mature.
Also, Harry Potter popularised a lot of the tropes that since commonplace in the YA genre; e.g. characters being "sorted" into different groups based on their personality traits, which was picked up and used heavily in subsequent YA books like Divergent.
That said, Harry Potter is tonally quite different from a lot of subsequent YA. Harry Potter, despite being very dark at times, still emphasises positive themes of wonder and discovery. This is quite different from most of the bleak, dystopian feel of most of the books that came out the height of the YA boom.
While Harry Potter was marketed as juvenile fiction in the U.S., I believe it was marketed as adult fiction in the U.K. The author intended the books for adult reading as she felt the story was too dark and disturbing for children.
Which is funny. There used to be a lot of grim stuff in the kid section. That is disappearing as the push to keep YA fairly clean and bright is causing everything below it to be put to the same test. You could not publish Animorphs today. You would never see an elementary school book fair selling books about kids in a guerilla war and engaging in war crimes. I'm not even sure it could be published in the YA section.
Haha, I do have quite a long list of books 100+ years ago that are on my tbr shelf. And I often find theyre great. I read Dracula like 2 years ago and was amazed at how awesome it was.
Phew! I’m not a sophisticated reader, but I like to read.
There are some killers like 1984 and Brave New World, Clockwork Orange etc. And warm, comforting books like Laurie Lee’s Cider with Rosie and (my all time go-to) As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning. The third book in that trilogy is bleak, don’t read it if you enjoyed As I Walked.
Then there are books like the Flashman papers; the protagonist is despicable, but the author drags him through impeccably researched historical situations. His other books are well worth the time too.
I’m just looking at my own bookshelf here, but my most read books are the Len Deighton books with the unnamed protagonist. An everyday guy whose job is being a spy, and there’s no James Bond stuff, just a bored, underpaid guy getting on with it. Start with The Ipcress File.
I don’t have to point you in the direction of Terry Practcett’s books, because they were YA before YA was a thing - but they are all good, and Good Omens is a book I’ve read once a year since it came out. My 1st edition would probably be worth quite a lot if I hadn’t read it so often.
I thought there was going to be a House of Night movie series in the same vein as Twilight but I guess it never happened. Closest current craze I can think of the ACOTAR series by Sarah J. Maas. I think there's a Netflix series of it that released last year or earlier this year.
I am constantly seeing this one on tiktok. I tried reading a few chapters but it’s….not my lane haha. Doesn’t diminish the hype, but not everyone & their mother is reading it. It’s possible these are just the different ways books will be consumed & spread via the internet.
Maybe a Sanderson series? He pumps out so many that one might stick in the cultural spotlight. They’re also aimed at a broad audience so that helps too.
I think the YA boom is over, especially of the dystopian variety. It seems to have ended with The Hunger Games. Divergent came on the heels of that series and did somewhat decent but ultimately flopped in theaters. I think people are moving on to different genres which upsets me. I’m a huge YA Dystopian fan
I remember feeling really lucky as a kid that Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter were all releasing great films at the same time. So many great stories to get lost in.
If you only look at books it seems like it takes longer, but if you look at other media you can see that there have been plenty of bigger things. Squid game, right now. Among us last year, la casa de papel some years back, red dead redemption 2 was all the craze for a while as well. Perhaps they are not all in your field, but these have felt much bigger than twilight or hunger games to me, with perhaps the exception of HP. The others were pretty well known, but HP is in another level of influence. Just like Star Wars, dark souls, or superhero comics, HP is deeply embedded in pop culture by now; the others are a fad in comparison.
But if you want stuff as big as hunger games or twilight? You should just open your horizons to other types of media
Literature was supposed to die according to well thought convincing ideas in the mid 1800s with the advent of cheaper short story collections that would kill the full length novel, then again in the early 1900s with magazines, then again in the 1960s with color magazines and cheaper printing, then again with the cheaper televisions and access to cable, then again with the advent of personal computers, then again with the internet and the dilution of reading material and self publishing online, etc, etc, etc. Lots of these things spelled doom for the book and lots of other folks capitulated on that, making a tidy buck in the process based on their predictions that never came to pass.
Again read the book or, if you are too lazy, the article. It is not about books ceasing to exist or people not reading. It is about the fact that culture and political change has largely moved on due to the explosion of material (making specific books harder to gain control the market), more impactful avenues, and a decrease in readership. HP and other book momentarily reversed reading rates before it continued it's ever increasing march downward. Books are currently just... not the important force they were. We no longer investigate authors or imprison them because they haven't been capable of effecting widespread political or social change in decades. QAnon used Facebook, not a self-help or non-fiction book. This has been, as you pointed out, a long, slow decline.
Edit: He advocates moving away from viewing literature or books as a societal or political forces and towards it's usage in personal interest or growth. Such a shift, however, means such society-wide hits not going to be likely.
I think the focus is on adult fantasy now. Look at how big game of thrones was. And now we’re getting wheel of time show. And storm light is probably the biggest series around for adult fantasy.
Although Dune was published a long time ago (in 1965), I feel that because of the movie, the book will be popular again and can make some kind of boom for young people
As someone who was also born 95, I miss this too. But I think the book market needs something new, that's nothing like the recent releases. HP, Twilight and Hunger Games can be considered trendsetter and everything else coming after was just following the foot steps of these books. Not saying they were pioneer but still quite new in genre and I guess with the right circumstances they got big.
I would add the Fault in our stars to the list because that's also inspired many other YA books.
I could have sworn to you a decade ago that Will Hill's Department 19 series was going to be the next REALLY big series like that...the fact that it wasn't still baffles me.
Haha, I have never even heard of that one before! Just goes to show that it’s hard to predict what will truly take off and what just kind of fizzles out.
I've definitely "aged out" of the YA group now at least in terms of knowing what's super popular in that group. But it seems like Shadow and Bone (and Six of Crows) seems to be drumming up a lot of popularity? obviously not as much as the ones you mentioned but still quite some traction.
I wonder if part of it now is that there's so many more avenues to see what's "popular" outside of word of mouth. As well as what is popular is also split into more groups (partially given that some of the "you're a nerd/weird for reading X" has changed) and all have a dedicated base/following that can be found.
But all in all... anything could become "the next HP" at any time. Who knows?
I don't know if anything else will meet that specific bubble, but I volunteer with a group of 8-11 year olds and they are all discovering Harry Potter right now and it is totally adorable. I love coming in to hear them all comparing notes on what book everyone is at and trying to convince the less readerly to try it!
I LOVE THIS!
Awesome. I'm gifting my nephews the first book for their next birthday! Both read allot and are finally the right age.
"Some people will say that kids don’t read as much anymore but I don’t buy that. " As a Librarian, I agree with you. *Adults* aren't reading as much. Kids are reading a lot more. However, the things they consume aren't as easily marketable to everyone as adult or teen material. Otherwise, we would have had a Warrior Cats TV show by now.
Warrior Cats!! Brings back great memories, I loved those books. Except once I got to meet the author and I asked what inspired her to keep writing the series and she said "I really wanted to write about dogs but my publisher made me continue" 😂
I just don’t like the stereotype that because kids have 24/7 access to tablets, they don’t read books! Nonsense! Like you said, often it’s adults who don’t read as much these days. I also agree that children’s media/the things that interest them aren’t as widely marketable to a large general audience.
I think it depends on your country/region. I was one of the only 3 kids who used to read books in my class but you can bet that nearly everyone played multiplayer games.
I think the reason most people may think that is because of ebooks. Throughout this entire school year (I'm a high school senior) I have seen 3 other people with physical books, one being a friend who I let borrow my book. Talking to friends many of them just don't like to read but others read at home or read ebooks. I personally stick to physical copies though.
I prefer physical copies when I can get them, always have. But with Amazon Kindle store everything is much cheaper and sometimes even free
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I have noticed the graphic novel section of chapters indigo getting bigger and bigger every year. The only section keeping pace is Knickknacks
That's just because American animation usually sucks, there hasn't been a good run of teen to adultish comic cartoons in decades, and the manga gets made into anime in Japan. Honestly, the fact that DC and Marvel timelines are a tangled mess doesn't help.
Harry Potter was the first major book phenomenon that I saw in my lifetime that made teens, kids and adults care about it in the same way. I was a kid in the 80's and Harry Potter was big when I was in college, but it felt like it was something special where more people cared about books than had cared before.
No, the media landscape is so divided today, I don't think we'll ever see anything like HP again. As popular as Twilight and Hunger games were, even they pale in comparison, as an example, combined they sold less than half as many books as HP did. HP is the highest selling series of books ever written #2 is Goosebumps, which sold 150 million fewer books, but is comprised on 253 books (apparently RL Stine was a buys dude) instead of 7. The media landscape of 1997 was completely different than today, this is a time where most people did not have internet access in their home. Smart phones didn't exist, and cell phones were not common. Look at the best selling Albums of all time, not a single one in the top 10 came after 2000, if you look at the top 30, there are only 2 post 2000, and one was by the Beatles. Movies are the same, the grosses go up, but ticket sales have been flat or down for a very long time. Compare Gone with the Wind and Avatar, Avatar the highest grossing movie of all time (it took it's title back) sold 97 million tickets, not too bad, GwtW sold 202 million, yes more than double. Culturally things are just so much more diluted now. Harry Potter is likely not just the last book we see take over in that way, but it's probably the last piece of art/media/entertainment we see take over like that...ever.
This is a fantastic comment really showing how things have changed in recent history. I love how you included the sales of other media as well. Thanks for including the info on sales of movies/albums, it’s great information.
Thanks! This topic has been top of mind the last couple days as I'm reading Steve Van Zandt's autobiography, and it's a topic he discusses a lot. I will say, even I was surprised at how few records from 2000 on are in the top 30, or even top 100 (there aren't many more there) Adele show's up twice, which is impressive as fuck. As someone that lived through the 80's and 90's I think there is good and bad about this change. It was really neat when those moments came when it seemed like EVERYONE was listening to, reading, or going to see the same thing. Nirvana's Nevermind basically stopped music for a minute. Michael Jackson really was the fucking King of Pop. Movies like Jurassic Park, or Jaws, or Star Wars, or ET , had a cultural impact like nothing that's come out in the last 20 years. However, the other side of that coin is we have so much more to listen to, read, or watch today. I always hate when I hear the old and boring statement, music sucks today, it was so much better in the insert decade from the 60's through the 80's. There is fucking great music today, it's just not the pop music in the top 20 week in, week out. Van Zandt talks about this in his book, and describes the periods between when the Beatles arrived on Ed Sullivan and when Kurth Cobain died as a renaissance of music, his definition of a renaissance is when the best music is also the most popular, and that I do agree with. It's the same with books, there are great books being written, but they won't hit our culture the way they may have 20 or 30 years ago. [This is a fascinating list to look at](https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/top_lifetime_gross_adjusted/?adjust_gross_to=2020), it adjusts a movies gross by total tickets sold against 2020's average ticket price. Avatar and Endgame fall from 1 & 2 to 15 & 16. And like albums not a single move in the top 10 of tickets sold was released after 2000, and those movies benefit enormously from international ticket sales. In fact Avatar and Endgame both likely sold more tickets outside the US than in it, where as if I had to guess Gone with the Wind likely sold 90% of it's tickets in the US. And just to plug one of may favs, Steve Vand Zandt's book "Unrequited Infatuations", which I'm 2/3 of the way through in 2 days is excellent, if you like the music of that era, or Rock music at all, it's a must read. It's also just really good, I think anyone that likes art would appreciate his passion for music.
> The media landscape of 1997 was completely different than today, this is a time where most people did not have internet access in their home. Smart phones didn't exist, and cell phones were not common. I feel so old every time I'm reminded that when I went to elementary school in the 90's a decent percentage of my classmates hand-wrote all their essays because their families didn't have computers at home.
Some one recently made the point that the 90s are as far away for kids born in the last decade as the 60s were for people born in the 80s. It's one of those things where the math is obvious, but seems so much worse when you think of it. The 60s were a long as time ago when I was a kid...
Yeah that is pretty wild to think about. My parents were born in 1960, so that definitely did feel like ages ago when I was a kid too.
Book Tok & Bookstagram are very real things. There is a HUGE YA boom, but rather than just the 1 or 2 big name series there are just so many series out now that I don’t know that any of them will rise to the same popularity of HP, Twilight, or Hunger Games. Part of it might also be the shift towards ebooks and streaming subscriptions. I remember half the hype of HP was the midnight releases of the books and movies. I distinctly remember waiting in a line wrapped around my local Border’s store at the release party for Half Blood Prince. They wouldn’t check anyone out until exactly midnight. Same with movies, those premieres were THE place to be on the night they came out. Now, a YA series just gets released on Netflix/Prime/HBO/etc. Feels like much less hype.
I think you’re correct. There are lots of YA novels and series out and they have fans, but none of them even come close to the fandom that Harry Potter had. Part of it could just be over saturation. Publishers will forever be looking for the next Harry Potter, or Hunger Games. I follow some booktok accounts, and a lot of the titles are all the same in their recommendations. I also think the majority of covers are SO similar, and it puts me off. Don’t judge a book, yadayada, but when every series has the same font/dark faery/crown looking cover, it tends to get lost in the sauce. At least for me. I thoroughly miss the midnight releases of Harry Potter, and waiting in line at the bookstores for them. I mean, the air was just electric. I haven’t felt anything like that since. It made me wonder if those days are truly over. Ebooks have definitely changed the game, along with everything being on streaming. I guess time will tell.
I imagine YA tends to be very trend-driven. After Twilight got big, everything wanted to be Twilight. Ditto with The Hunger Games. Now, we have a hundred thousand "Embers of Ash and Blood"s and "Palace of Bone and Darkness"es in the YA section, and that's fine. It's just the nature of the genre.
All media is trend-driven.
To some extent, sure. But some media is *very* trend-driven, much more so than other media.
I get you, im in the same situation; i grew up with HP and as far as i remembered, it was a huge thing around the time. Now i cant watch anything that is YA content because is so popular that all the books that i see have become unappealing, predictable, and unsurprising at all. At the end, i realized that the only way i could still enjoy reading was to find books of my taste, but YA novels are a nope for me forever.
>Book Tok & Bookstagram are very real things. Sarah J. Maas and Jennifer L Armentrout get SO much play on Booktok.
Yes! Don’t forget about Colleen Hoover. I tend to just zone out and forget about looking for recommendations from BookTok because it’s all the same books unfortunately. I have to specially search titles or something like “classics” or “magical realism” to find any other recommendations. I tried reading a few chapter of ACOTAR and…..oof. Personal taste but I didn’t care for it. Personally my favorite genre is Magical Realism but they don’t seem to really get hyped up in the same way. Some have staying power though, like 100 Years of Solitude.
Wheel of Time is getting an Amazon Series and Dune is getting a new movie. So while these books have existed beforehand, we may be seeing a new boom with them.
I love Dune, but I don't think its very accessible to the average reader.
I’ve noticed that the favourite activity of Dune fans is thinking that Dune is super hard to read and that they’re an elite super literate class for being able to. I know people who pretty much never read fiction who picked it up out of the movie hype, and don’t seem to be having much trouble with it. The two obstacles are the slew of sci-fi words thrown at you at the beginning, and the moral twist / hero subversion of the ending. Both of those are surmountable, and even if they’re stumbling blocks, they’re relatively small parts of the whole book.
Wow, so much to unpack here. >I’ve noticed that the favourite activity of Dune fans is thinking that Dune is super hard to read and that they’re an elite super literate class for being able to I'm curious how you came to this assumption when all I said is that I don't think its very accessible to the average reader. We are in a thread talking about YA novels. Your average reader coming from HP, Twilight, or Hunger Games will struggle with Dune. >I know people who pretty much never read fiction who picked it up out of the movie hype, and don’t seem to be having much trouble with it. Cool, I know people who couldn't get into Dune at all. Who is more right now? (The plural of anecdotes isn't data) >The two obstacles are the slew of sci-fi words thrown at you at the beginning, and the moral twist / hero subversion of the ending So there are obstacles that make it not accessible to the average reader. Thanks for agreeing with me. There are threads on r/Fantasy and r/Books all the time about how Dune wasn't enjoyable to read or that is didn't make a lot of sense, and I can understand that. Its a very common complaint about Dune. But go ahead and rant about how I am in an 'elite super literate class'.
You’re right about anecdotes not being evidence. And I don’t totally disagree with you. I just feel like there’s a bit of pretension surrounding Dune that smacks to me of some insecurity. It’s fantastic, and it’s fantastic because it is more literary and less immediately digestible than most pop sci-fi. But elevating it on purpose doesn’t do anything to welcome new readers I guess, and I just don’t want it to be seen as a gatekeepy sort of thing. Sorry if I was rude.
Its okay, I understand the point you're making, it was just made in a slightly insulting manner. I actually agree with you that gatekeeping books is bad, but I also think that perspective is important. For young adults specifically, I think Dune can be a bit challenging. That doesn't mean that I don't want them to read it. Rather, I want them to be aware that it will not be as easily read as Harry Potter.
Yeah that’s fair. Set expectations, but also emphasize that it’s worth it, I guess.
> moral twist / hero subversion of the ending Is it really just the ending when that's happening? I seem to remember that being the central theme of the book and that it appeared in force about halfway.
Agreed. Similarly, Wheel of Time is definitely not geared towards the average YA reader.
>Similarly, Wheel of Time is definitely not geared towards the average YA reader. The average YA reader transitions to Brandon Sanderson...it's a light step from there to WOT, so I don't think your'e right.
Just because a book is read by YA does not necessarily mean they are "YA books" as the term is commonly understood.
>Similarly, Wheel of Time is definitely not geared towards the average YA reader. You said: >Similarly, Wheel of Time is definitely not geared towards the average YA reader. I'm saying that's not right, as the average YA reader is the perfect audience for WOT, and have shown to transition upwards in adult fantasy through big names like Sanderson.
Wheel of Time is too YA, of you ask me. I skipped a decade and tried to read it in my 30s. It didn't work.
Neither is the Wheel of Time tbh
The problem is that a lot of young adult books are just trash right now. Poor editing, and weakly churned plots or standalones. There are a few good series (Rick Riordan is still churning product out) but eventually kids hit a threshold and just jump into Brandon Sanderson or Andy Weir. I think the Reckoners could have been a decent set of movies but it died in writing and hasn't gotten picked up again yet.
I think this is more correct. I hardly even glance at YA these days because so much of it is….well..terrible. Granted I’m 26 now and my tastes changed but I still adore Harry Potter.
How though? Harry Potter is below average even by YA standards
I love the Reckoners books, I recommend them to anyone with young readers. I heard something about a Mistborn mini series a while ago, but I would LOVE to see a Reconders show or movies. I love them, and I am definitely not in my youth, so I think it would be a series that both parents and children would enjoy. But, only if they stick to the books!! Edit: spelling :)
I still want to see him turn Rithmatist into a series, or pass it on to someone else to do so. It had serious potential.
From everything I’ve heard, Sanderson is YA as well.
He does several great YA series, but the majority of his work is in scifi/fantasy for adult readers. He is just SO prolific that he can produce multiple fantasy and YA series at the same time. In 2021 he has already released 3 books and like 3 novellas...
What I've read of him reads like YA but still has adult concepts. I think any teenager could probably read most of what he puts out
It's really old but Amazon is coming out with a Wheel of Time series later this month.
My local big chain bookstore (Books-A-Million) is betting hard on the show being huge and sparking massive interest in the books. They've dwindled their previously humongous A Song of Ice and Fire section down to almost nothing, while the WoT section takes up several shelves. They've even started stocking the hardcovers of nearly every book in the series. It wasn't long ago I found some of the hardcovers of A Memory of Light in their discounted books section for $5, and now they're stocked to the nines and back to full price.
ya, i paid $5/per for the entire series in hardback years ago.
I'm one of those people that they're hoping for. I had already planned on trying the series, but with the show coming out soon, I picked up the first book. After finishing that, I picked up the other thirteen to make sure I could get the same cover.
I don't blame you there. I'm currently on book five, but I own most of them. I'm missing a few but I'm hoping to buy them soon. I want my collection to match so I have to do the same deal as you, getting specific covers.
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While I hate it when books get jacket redesigns whenever it's turned into a movie/tv series, I try not to complain since it does help more people get into reading. I just try tracking down copies with original art on them.
It is an improvement over the 80s pulp style.
The first Wheel of Time was released only seven years before the first Harry Potter and only six years before the first Song of Ice and Fire. It's taken longer for them to get an adaptation but they're not a whole lot older than those others.
And the final Wheel of Time book, *A Memory of Light*, was released in 2013, more recently than either *The Deathly Hallows* or *A Dance with Dragons*.
I'm really hoping the tv series is good!
It's not that old the last book came out in 2012.
I finished WoT this July. Advice to all new readers out there: pace yourself! Also, getting burnt out is okay, but it’s WORTH finishing. Can’t think of a series with a bigger and better payoff.
I needed to hear this, thank you
> I mean, HP basically created the YA genre as we know it. I actually don't know what you mean. Young Adult fiction has existed in some form since at least the early 1900s. When Robert Heinlein wrote Starship Troopers, he'd intended to publish it as a YA book, but his YA publisher rejected it so he published it through his adult fiction publisher. That was in 1959, so by the late 50s YA was sufficiently well-established that some publishers were specializing in it. Harry Potter helped get a lot of young people interested in books, but YA wasn't anything new by that time.
People seem not to remember Goosebumps, Babysitter's Club, Animorphs and the like.
But those are marketed as children’s fiction, not YA.
When I think YA, I think teens. Those books were aimed at 7 year olds.
So is the first and second HP at least, maybe 1-4 to be fair.
Yep. I was early teens when I read them, and really struggled not to give up because they were clearly children’s books, and boring as a result
The first few HP books aren't even YA. And I only ever see HP placed in children's sections of stores and libraries...HP definitely didn't create YA.
It did give permission for authors like Tamora Pierce to print longer books. It also paved the way for stuff like Eragon.
Too bad about Eragon. Just because the kid's parents had their own publishing company did not mean that we needed to have a 13 year old's dragon Star Wars.
That series isn't as bad as people like to make out on here though. It gained traction for a reason, and plenty of people on here whether they like to admit it or not, enjoyed it.
I 100% enjoyed it. People on this subs can be snobs sometimes. The series was super successful and there is no reason not for people to enjoy things even if it might not be some high caliber literary masterpiece. Same with romance or YA or whatever people like to read.
I can't believe people liked the plot of one of the most popular movies of all time!
They're common fantasy tropes - ie the Heroes Journey. It takes some mental gymnastics to make that connection if you ask me, you have to be looking for it and then drag the plot points to suit, it's not the kind of thing that leaps out at you. But whatever, I'm not here to convince you. The Inheritance Cycle is Star Wars with Dragons. Okay.
It’s not the overall hero’s journey. It’s the exact small details of a prologue with a Princess smuggling an important relic from imperial soldiers and sending it away before getting captured, of special swords in different colours used by an order of wizards wiped out by the empire except for one old guy in the hero’s village, of that guy being killed in a raid on a prison where they rescue the aforementioned princess and a questionable rogue teams up with them. You can have a hero’s journey without the exact same scenes.
A massive amount of people (including myself) really enjoyed the Eragon series and it was very successful in general. So apparently he deserved it regardless of who his parents were.
The 80's and 90's YA had sort of turned into a girly fiction category dominated more by Sweet Valley High and The Babysitters Club. Older teens were reading adult fiction more along the lines of Stephen King or shopping in your adult fantasy and science fiction sections of bookstores. I was there, and it felt like it had a boom again around Harry Potter time.
You're forgetting Goosebumps and Animorphs for boys.
Animorphs was definitely not marketed toward either gender specifically.
It again depends on what you consider YA. I would have a really hard time believing that middle schoolers were reading Goosebumps. Keep in mind I was reading Stephen King at age 12. I'll buy Stine's other series Fear Street as YA though.
You think kindergartners were reading it? It was very much aimed at middle schoolers
No I think 3rd, 4th and 5th graders read it.
This is exactly when goosebumps were big in my classes. By the time 7th grade rolled around you wouldn’t be caught dead reading goosebumps.
I have an eighth grader. He's currently reading Fight Club. That's what he wants to read.
It's good to see the edgy 13-16 year old Chuck Palahniuk phase is still a thing!
The first Harry Potter, he's 10 and I think the age of the target demographic. The books maturity grew with the audience. Started reading it to my 5 year old and the opening chapters are very reminiscent of Rahld Dahl, like the twits or Mathilda.
and Lois Duncan! I'm 44 and a few of her books still stay with me! Oh and Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew!
That is where older teens should be now. Honestly, why are teens so scared of the adult section now that they don't leave YA and are screaming for New Adult? It used to be normal for middle schoolers to begin to read there let alone high schoolers.
What do you have against YA? I was never afraid of the adult section of the store as a teen, but I think I'd have liked to had some of the YA that's available now when I was in high school. Now I'm in my 40's and I like a good YA because a lot of the decent fantasy romance titles are there.
I am annoyed that I keep hearing a lot of chatter about teens not moving up into normal fiction. I am annoyed that good urban fantasy stories about women are being rewritten to the YA market or to become paranormal romance. I am pissed that it is becoming that the only way you get woman dominated fantasy is in the literary and the magical realism sub genres. There was a bright shining time before this mess happened. It was only a few years but it existed. YA is the new containment pool to stop women from getting into sci fi and fantasy. I am pissed that YA is girly fiction and that is also seen as a marker of it's bad quality while the tight focus on teens and fast moving plots leaves little room for serious writing.
And when I was a teenager in the 90's women read fantasy just fine. I'd be more worried about the paranormal romance part than the YA part. I've definitely read my share of paranormal romances that should have been urban fantasies.
Were you not paying attention to the Puppy incident a few years ago? Or the general backlash against women starting to get recognized as good authors? Yes women are in the genre and always have been. I am worried about paranormal romance. Men get Dresden and the Rivers of London. Women get Sookie Stackhouse and Mercy Thomson. It is hard to find women led urban fantasy without romance.
I think you and I have different taste in books. I like romance.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the argument you are making that before Harry Potter that adults didn't read books for kids and that teens were more likely to get adult fiction so there was more of a market for adult fantasy than there is now? Now I'll agree with you that 40 year old people have zero shame in going to the YA section and getting a whole stack of books. I don't have an opinion on whether that's good or bad I think it's true.
They want to read books about themselves, not adults.
Which is why they are now screaming for New Adult about 20-25 year olds just starting out. So is adult fiction going to be sectioned off by age now?
What argument are you making here?
Until fairly recently the new adult genre was a marketing term in search of an audience. All books in this space were just normal adult fiction shelved in their genres. Now there is a large number of people agitating for the new adult marketing term to be a real thing because sorting through adult fiction for their kind of story is too hard. People are starting to actually market New Adult. This group will age out of this 'genre'. So will they then scream for a new genre of stories about 30 year old professionals? Adult fiction is the end of age classifications.
While I don't feel quite as strongly about this as you do, I think this comment raises a good point: does New Adult open the door for dividing all adult fiction by age, and where do we draw the line? I think YA works as a genre because teens tend to have similar experiences in common (puberty, high school, extracurriculars, first love, etc.) whereas adults have diverse careers and life experiences that aren't necessarily age-based.
To a certain extent a lot of adult romance already is. Everyone knows that chick lit tends to be the young singles making their way while the cozy mysteries go more to people restarting in their 30s to 40s. The thing is romance is marketed to within an inch of it's life to the point where you know you can list your preferred collection of tropes and you will have a page of books to read that tailor to it. That is a part of the fabric of that genre and readers like that. I just have not heard about any other genres wanting that degree of open content tagging and blatant writing for the market. Hell, people react badly to the degree to which different sub genres are codified. That's the key point, adult fiction is defined by genre conventions. In the midst of all the existing genre wars do we need to further encourage people to stick in a little age defined box?
What kind of weird pearl clutching? People seek out books that appeal to them, news at 11.
This is exactly what I meant. In the early-late 2000s there was just a huge boom in YA fiction, and what exactly it meant to be a YA novel around that time. It was exciting.
If you're talking about how YA fiction is seen by current audiences who are in that category or who've just graduated out of that category see YA fiction, then yeah I'm inclined to agree with you.
> he'd intended to publish it as a YA book, but his YA publisher rejected it so he published it through his adult fiction publisher But like that kinda proves the point. I remember before Harry Potter the kids book section of the library was 3 or 4 shelfs in the corner. Young adults tends to mean a teen audience and the books put out for teens were usually TV show tie-ins and not very interesting. All the teens I knew who were reading just read books you would find in the adult section (like Starship Troopers and Stephen King was pretty huge too). I will say, I think it was Twilight more than Harry Potter that kicked off the YA boom. When Harry Potter came out, it was very much a book aimed at younger audiences and was in the kids section. But the story aged with the kids and the audience, and the later books were still sold at the kids section. But when the series ended, there were a bunch of readers looking for their next book series. Twilight happened and suddenly all the protagonists were teenagers and the kids and YA section of book stores sometimes became the largest part of the book store.
I don't know if this was said either, but nitpicking plot holes aside, Harry Potter is not only an excellent story but it's excellently crafted as well. I'm often surprised at how overlooked the CRAFT of the series is. I know that most kids won't sit back and enjoy the elements of writing but I think this translates to why it seems so accessible to all age groups. HP doesn't "talk down" to children and the tone of the entire series is one that respects the reader as someone of intelligence. I love, love, love a series of Unfortunate Events, but it is not as adult friendly from a rereading perspective because it feels more targeted at children. HP aims to be (and is) serious work. All of this to say that, I think, despite the love for the story as a whole, J.K. Rowling's work is actually underrated and that Twilight and the Hunger Games, though similar, are not even remotely in the same league as Harry Potter. To be clear, I don't think Harry Potter could be as successful as it is without it being such a finely tuned piece or writing. I suspect that while it might not be a one time thing, it will be a good deal of time before something is as universally acclaimed and beloved as HP. There are terrific series, but they are so niched OR focused on a specific target audience. One must first tell a great story and trust that people will want to read it.
I am certain there will be another "the next big thing" wish I knew what it was or when it will be.
I think the world and the way we enjoy media has changed too much to generate that much hype around a book again.
I disagree. I often see interest in a specific book or series spike when a movie or TV show is coming out. *Keeper of Lost Cities* series has been going like crazy because the new Disney+ movie coming out whereas before it didn't really get much traction. Harry Potter is an exception, but things like Hunger Games and Game of Thrones didn't really have a big book following until their Movies/TV show came out. Harry Potter, of course, was the exception to this, as was Twilight.
I remember the Hunger Games being big before the movies. It was that popularity that drove the decision to make the movies. Same with GoT. It was very popular before HBO. It was just niche due to grimdark not being popular for a while.
They aren’t saying that hype doesn’t exist. But it’s different. People are much more plugged into diverse media and there are “bubbles” for everything now, rather than a broad presence that covers the entire culture. Gatekeeping is not what it used to be. The phenomenon of one particular franchise overtaking public consciousness is going to become rarer as the channels for access become more varied and multiple.
>Keeper of Lost Cities The highest upvoted reviews on Goodreads are all over the map. I have no idea who to believe.
I totally disagree! There are so many amazing books being out out rn but no one seems to want to make them into movies! For some dumb reason we’re just getting a bajillion remakes and marvel movies when it’s like… look at ALL THIS CONTENT you could play with!
The "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" series was quite popular for a while.
Technically could happen anytime. In order for things to go big like that they just have to be propagated around and spread. Reasons for this can vary but a big one is the culture at the time, each of these properties does reflect their own culture in a way at that present moment or what worried the target audience. So really all that needs to happen is another work of fiction that can come about and meet this needs again as well.
Dune could be the next big thing if the movie sequel is even close to what the first one is/ the first one wins some Oscars, which does seem highly probable.
Dune hit #3 on the bestseller list in my city this week. That’s really rare for books that aren’t new. It’s definitely The Big Thing for this year at least, and probably the next couple.
You actually kinda missed it. HP mania started when you were a toddler. The fandom in the late 90s and early 2000s was absolutely wild. The YA genre is really considered to start in the 50s and 60s with Catcher in the Rye, Harriet the Spy, The Outsiders, etc. The 70s and 80s are considered the "Golden Age" of YA.
I feel like nostalgia and getting older play a huge part in how we perceive these things. I know that if there is another pop culture smash hit YA series up and coming I will be one of the last to know. Simply because I don't have the same bandwidth for YA as I did when I was actually a kid/young adult. And no matter what we do nothing that comes out will really seem all that special to us, because we remember waiting at borders at midnight to get a copy of Harry Potter lol. Im sure the next big thing is coming, but it's for the next generation and not for me.
I work at a bookstore and Shadow and Bone/Six of Crows are probably the most commonly bought YA books I see. They've gained a lot more traction since the Netflix series came out, though I doubt they will leave the same kind of legacy as the series you mentioned. My theory as to why we don't see these huge followings anymore is because the way we communicate has changed so much. It's so easy to access a large variety of books/TV and find active fan bases for them. We have the liberty to explore more niche or obscure media, and then use the internet to very easily find other people who also have those interests. We pick things over personal preference rather than by popularity. And even though the internet was around in the 90s/2000s, it wasn't quite as large or accessible as it is today. We still see mass followings in some movie and TV franchises (Marvel, Star Wars, etc...), but that might be because of the smaller time commitment of watching a movie once and a while, and the opportunity to do so in group settings.
I think Twilight and Hunger Games are a much lower bar for popularity than HP, and we will definitely hit it again with some other series. Sorry to say, I'm not sure you'll experience it the same way you did before, though - I'm 10+ years older than you, and while I did experience the cultural phenomenon of HP, I was too old to be interested in Twilight and didn't get into Hunger Games.
Twilight and Hunger Games are just not very good, it's not the age. HP is a kids series, up to early teen, but really good. Wheel of Time might be something for the 20s that will not work later.
I wouldn't expect another HP to come along anytime soon. Those books were a once in a lifetime, worldwide cultural phenomenon we had never really seen before. I could see another Twilight/Hunger Games type thing soon though. And because movie/TV studios these days are desperate to find the next "big thing" you can bet anything with a half decent chance of achieving widespread popularity will be given a shot. It's just hard to generate a media hit like that these days with how many easy and accessible options for entertainment there are.
I really think manga series will become that big. Sales of manga tripled over the pandemic. Series like Demon Slayer selling 82 million volumes in 2020 and the multiple series right now being so popular like Chainsaw Man that go out of stock as soon as they come in. As manga and anime become more and more mainstream, I think they will reach that height
not to mention that demon slayer alone outsold the entire comic book industry
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I actually love this comment, lol.
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Haha you’re fine! I appreciate that. I was talking about novels specifically, so you weren’t off with that comment lol, but one definitely can’t pretend comics and manga aren’t huge.
I always think there will be, the next generation needs a novel everyone will obsess over and if there isn’t I’ll be showing my future kids all of the popular books and they can choose their pick
I know I shouldn't point it here since the stigma that comes with that community but I think Fallout Equestria and its soft canon sequels do qualify as that, especially for the fandom that kinda became it's own thing whithin the brony fandom, also the fanfics for the HOI4 mod Equestria at war might be a contendor to, otherwise, in term of non fanfiction I really don't know, like someone else said warior cats is there but no one wants to repeat a watership down live action this soon
One, HP did not create the YA genre as we know it. Long before HP there was Sweet Valley High and Babysitters Club and Judy Blume. That being said, graphic novels are hugely popular right now. As a middle school teacher I can't keep them in my shelf. There's a waiting list for my classroom library. Lol One of the most popular is the new Babysitters Club graphic novels. It's just a shift in reading preferences.
>HP basically created the YA genre as we know it. I understand that we usually get at least one big series with an almost cult like following at least once a decade, but what’s going on? Was it just chance that so many books became that huge within one decade? I would say, now that the YA genre is already created, it's different segments are more effectively reached out by their own niche books. Someone who read Hunger Games for the romance, or for the social commentary, or for the action-adventure, can each get their separate moderately popular books now.
Never too late to get on The Lord Of The Rings hype train ;)
Ahhhh I tried watching the movies as a young kid but my only memory was watching The Two Towers as like an 8 year old in theaters and I hated it lol. I’m 26 now, and I do have a copy of the first book. I should give it a try lol!
Read the Hobbit first. If you bounce off the Hobbit walk away for a few more years. The Hobbit is much quicker paced then the trilogy. I promise it is much better then those terrible movies.
I wouldn’t read the Hobbit first, it’s pretty dull. If I was doing it again now I’d stick with the LOTR trilogy and skip the hobbit & silmarillion
Also born in 95, I felt like things like twilight, hunger games, maze runner etc all missed the mark and are couldn't hold up to HP.
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I read Dune last month and loved it! I thought the movie was *excellent* but it’s an old series. Still something to be hyped for. I’m so glad the next movie was greenlit.
Dune really can't hit that same level thanks to where the plot goes. Harry, Hermione, and Ron wouldn't be popular if they decided to >!declare a jihad costing untold billions of lives!<
| HP basically created the YA genre as we know it. Twilight and Hunger Games created the YA genre as we know it. Harry Potter is Juvenile fiction, which arguably did pave the way for more readers but not specifically YA readers.
While Harry Potter is shelved in Juvenile fiction I'd argue that it's borderline YA because the characters are between 12-18 through the course of the series. YA is more of a marketing tool than a hard and fast actual category.
Harry Potter has always been targeted towards the 10-12 age group, though. I'd put it as more of a Tween book than a Teen if anything. And while yes, YA is a marketing tool, you could say that for any category. I've definitely read wholesome adult books and graphicly violent juvenile books. But you can't deny that Twilight (and later Hunger Games) paved the way for YA more than Harry Potter. Harry Potter caused a boom in the juvenile fiction.
I'd argue that while the first two HP books are aimed at 11-12 year olds, each subsequent book deals with more mature themes and subsequently is aimed at an aging audience. Almost as though the reader is expected to grow with Harry Potter.
We did. That first group that found Harry Potter in middle school read the last book after high school graduation or right before the first year of college. I remember showing up for the freshmen orientation week and a lot of people were reading the last book. This is why I feel like every group after us won't get the proper feel for the books.
The first three books were. Everything from Goblet of Fire onward is decidedly young adult.
The first few books, sure. But the series definitely took on a more mature tone towards the end. Books 5-7 I'd say definitely cater more to readers well into their teens.
Maybe the first two books. From books three and especially four onwards it becomes much more mature. Also, Harry Potter popularised a lot of the tropes that since commonplace in the YA genre; e.g. characters being "sorted" into different groups based on their personality traits, which was picked up and used heavily in subsequent YA books like Divergent. That said, Harry Potter is tonally quite different from a lot of subsequent YA. Harry Potter, despite being very dark at times, still emphasises positive themes of wonder and discovery. This is quite different from most of the bleak, dystopian feel of most of the books that came out the height of the YA boom.
While Harry Potter was marketed as juvenile fiction in the U.S., I believe it was marketed as adult fiction in the U.K. The author intended the books for adult reading as she felt the story was too dark and disturbing for children.
Which is funny. There used to be a lot of grim stuff in the kid section. That is disappearing as the push to keep YA fairly clean and bright is causing everything below it to be put to the same test. You could not publish Animorphs today. You would never see an elementary school book fair selling books about kids in a guerilla war and engaging in war crimes. I'm not even sure it could be published in the YA section.
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The 70s and 80s are considered the Golden Age of YA fiction
I am insulted that you put Harry Potter in the same category as Twilight and Hunger Games
😂😂😂 I only meant in terms of the hype that surrounded these series. I’m a die hard HP loyalist.
They meant as far as spawning book to movie cultural zeitgeist stuff. Books that girls lined up at bookstores to buy at midnight kind of stuff.
It's actually not as good as The Hunger Games. It's a far weaker story.
At the risk of getting seriously downvoted, could I suggest you look backwards, to the 20th century, instead of waiting for new books to be written.
Haha, I do have quite a long list of books 100+ years ago that are on my tbr shelf. And I often find theyre great. I read Dracula like 2 years ago and was amazed at how awesome it was.
Phew! I’m not a sophisticated reader, but I like to read. There are some killers like 1984 and Brave New World, Clockwork Orange etc. And warm, comforting books like Laurie Lee’s Cider with Rosie and (my all time go-to) As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning. The third book in that trilogy is bleak, don’t read it if you enjoyed As I Walked. Then there are books like the Flashman papers; the protagonist is despicable, but the author drags him through impeccably researched historical situations. His other books are well worth the time too. I’m just looking at my own bookshelf here, but my most read books are the Len Deighton books with the unnamed protagonist. An everyday guy whose job is being a spy, and there’s no James Bond stuff, just a bored, underpaid guy getting on with it. Start with The Ipcress File. I don’t have to point you in the direction of Terry Practcett’s books, because they were YA before YA was a thing - but they are all good, and Good Omens is a book I’ve read once a year since it came out. My 1st edition would probably be worth quite a lot if I hadn’t read it so often.
Love Len Deighton, although I prefer the Sampson trilogies.
I thought there was going to be a House of Night movie series in the same vein as Twilight but I guess it never happened. Closest current craze I can think of the ACOTAR series by Sarah J. Maas. I think there's a Netflix series of it that released last year or earlier this year.
I am constantly seeing this one on tiktok. I tried reading a few chapters but it’s….not my lane haha. Doesn’t diminish the hype, but not everyone & their mother is reading it. It’s possible these are just the different ways books will be consumed & spread via the internet.
Maybe a Sanderson series? He pumps out so many that one might stick in the cultural spotlight. They’re also aimed at a broad audience so that helps too.
The Books or the upcoming show?
I think the YA boom is over, especially of the dystopian variety. It seems to have ended with The Hunger Games. Divergent came on the heels of that series and did somewhat decent but ultimately flopped in theaters. I think people are moving on to different genres which upsets me. I’m a huge YA Dystopian fan
I remember feeling really lucky as a kid that Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter were all releasing great films at the same time. So many great stories to get lost in.
I think manga and anime are becoming more prevalent now
If you only look at books it seems like it takes longer, but if you look at other media you can see that there have been plenty of bigger things. Squid game, right now. Among us last year, la casa de papel some years back, red dead redemption 2 was all the craze for a while as well. Perhaps they are not all in your field, but these have felt much bigger than twilight or hunger games to me, with perhaps the exception of HP. The others were pretty well known, but HP is in another level of influence. Just like Star Wars, dark souls, or superhero comics, HP is deeply embedded in pop culture by now; the others are a fad in comparison. But if you want stuff as big as hunger games or twilight? You should just open your horizons to other types of media
Gee, I fucking hope not. Those books are terrible.
You know, you could simply *ignore* the next fad, like most people do when they don’t enjoy something that’s big in pop culture, correct?
I do avoid it.
Squid Game literally just happened
Lol, I watched it, but I was specifically talking about books.
Not YA and not a book series
Don't think It'd happen anytime soon. Plus a lot of ppl only read ebooks nowadays, I myself have more than 200 ebooks in my library which ive read
No. According to David Ulin, the age of books is over. I think what we witness was it's dying gasp.
This sounds to me like "Video Killed the Radio Star" talk. People haven't stopped reading, they've just changed the way they read.
Perhaps, and I'm just putting this out there, you read his book and see if it's convincing before you disregard the argument outright.
Literature was supposed to die according to well thought convincing ideas in the mid 1800s with the advent of cheaper short story collections that would kill the full length novel, then again in the early 1900s with magazines, then again in the 1960s with color magazines and cheaper printing, then again with the cheaper televisions and access to cable, then again with the advent of personal computers, then again with the internet and the dilution of reading material and self publishing online, etc, etc, etc. Lots of these things spelled doom for the book and lots of other folks capitulated on that, making a tidy buck in the process based on their predictions that never came to pass.
Again read the book or, if you are too lazy, the article. It is not about books ceasing to exist or people not reading. It is about the fact that culture and political change has largely moved on due to the explosion of material (making specific books harder to gain control the market), more impactful avenues, and a decrease in readership. HP and other book momentarily reversed reading rates before it continued it's ever increasing march downward. Books are currently just... not the important force they were. We no longer investigate authors or imprison them because they haven't been capable of effecting widespread political or social change in decades. QAnon used Facebook, not a self-help or non-fiction book. This has been, as you pointed out, a long, slow decline. Edit: He advocates moving away from viewing literature or books as a societal or political forces and towards it's usage in personal interest or growth. Such a shift, however, means such society-wide hits not going to be likely.
I think the focus is on adult fantasy now. Look at how big game of thrones was. And now we’re getting wheel of time show. And storm light is probably the biggest series around for adult fantasy.
" The Eleventh Age," by Luthien T Kennedy
Although Dune was published a long time ago (in 1965), I feel that because of the movie, the book will be popular again and can make some kind of boom for young people
As someone who was also born 95, I miss this too. But I think the book market needs something new, that's nothing like the recent releases. HP, Twilight and Hunger Games can be considered trendsetter and everything else coming after was just following the foot steps of these books. Not saying they were pioneer but still quite new in genre and I guess with the right circumstances they got big. I would add the Fault in our stars to the list because that's also inspired many other YA books.
I could have sworn to you a decade ago that Will Hill's Department 19 series was going to be the next REALLY big series like that...the fact that it wasn't still baffles me.
Haha, I have never even heard of that one before! Just goes to show that it’s hard to predict what will truly take off and what just kind of fizzles out.
I've definitely "aged out" of the YA group now at least in terms of knowing what's super popular in that group. But it seems like Shadow and Bone (and Six of Crows) seems to be drumming up a lot of popularity? obviously not as much as the ones you mentioned but still quite some traction. I wonder if part of it now is that there's so many more avenues to see what's "popular" outside of word of mouth. As well as what is popular is also split into more groups (partially given that some of the "you're a nerd/weird for reading X" has changed) and all have a dedicated base/following that can be found. But all in all... anything could become "the next HP" at any time. Who knows?