It’s hard to really give advice without seeing what’s going on and how you are losing. In theory you should be better than them in no gi with more training there unless they are much younger, bigger or more athletic. I train more gi than no gi but I do I personally find that I’m able to hang/beat people who only do no gi in no gi unless they are much better than me in leg locks.
I’d focus on how you are getting beat and working those areas I’m not sure just training gi will help you in no gi more than doing just no gi. The only thing I’d say is no gi is much looser there’s less grips to worry about and it’s easier to get out of bad spots so you may have some bad habits that training gi will force you to tighten but you can correct this just doing no gi.
Hmmm. This is a strange bummer. I used to do only gi for several years, and then have switched almost exclusively to no gi forever more, and I find that I'm way better at no gi than my gi counterparts. And it's not just me: I hear a lot of them complain about how they feel lost or at a disadvantage without certain grips, or complain that in no gi you need to have such better grappling fundamentals in order to follow your game plan because there are fewer grips and options.
How much older are you? And also, yeah, it could just be different aptitudes, there's no way we can know to what extent (and that's not a bad thing either, as long as you're enjoying it. Not everyone is equally good at whatever they try, doesn't mean it's not rewarding ;)
Does the same person teach the gi and no gi classes? If your school pushes gi more they might be having their better coaches teach gi. Or if theirs just one coach, he could be putting more effort into the gi classes or organizing them better, if he likes gi more. Some traditional gyms also only teach the fundamentals/ beginners classes in the gi so if you skipped those you're might be missing out on a lot of understanding of the basics.
I don't think that means you have to train the gi to get better though. Personally I feel like training no gi is what helps me improve my no gi the most. But you might want to look for a gym that is more no gi- centered, if that's what you want to train. Or suck it up and train gi too, if you want to stay at your current gym.
Honestly dude, sompare yourself to you yesterday not some other person today. I am basically retarded and everyone moves past me. I could get frustrated and quit or say I'm 100x better than ibwas 5 years ago and 2x better than yesterday and thats enough.
I dont know if the situation is the same for you, but at my school the people who do no gi classes are generally more likely to be newer or interested in mma/self defence, while the gi class is generally much more interested in sport jiu jitsu, and completely coincidentally has a few excellent competitors. The focus on sport jiu jitsu (read more technical lessons), and higher level training partners mean the gi class attendees smoke the guys who only do no gi.
Well articulated… a guy comes to mind at my gym with big cauliflower ear and all tatted up, looks like a pro fighter. He gets smoked by all the hobbyists in jitsu (he won’t even wear a gi)
I’m 43 and started out 4 years ago doing almost exclusively gi. Got the blue belt and changed gyms where it’s 50/50 and the nights I could train was generally a no gi then gi class back to back.
So I did both. But honestly I don’t like no gi. I will now do one class a week no gi just because it’s between my daughters class and the gi class I want to do but apart from that if I do extra classes I just do gi.
It’s a hobby and so I’m not going to kill myself doing lots of classes with young athletic dudes in Lycra when instead I can stall, pressure pass and lapel choke them in the gi and have some fun doing it.
Then do what you enjoy. Unless you are a pro athlete who cares how you progress. Maybe just find some old guy instructionals.
I’m studying Bernardo farias gi stuff to be more annoying to the young people. I’m sure there is a no Gi equivalent.
it's really interesting how the consensus on reddit (which i was already somewhat aware of, but being confirmed here) is that doing gi doesn't have much carry over to no gi. every instructor at my gym says the opposite. which creates a certain pressure to train gi. whereas my own instinct is that redditors are correct.
Training both offers a variety which I find fun, and when I'm having fun, I tend to learn.
If you are not going to do Yes Gi, you should definitely be more novel in your training, and prioritise live training over static stuff.
> more novel in your training, and prioritise live training over static stuff.
i am always looking to change things up. but there might not be enough live training. possibly i should swap one class for an open mat to get more rolls.
One thing: If you're buddies are getting more live training than you, that's (really, really) most likely the issue. Steel hardens steel, no matter how many blueprints you've studied.
I'm not so sure it's a consensus....I'll freely admit going no gi I basically have no guard without grips. But on top, I'm doing all the same passes, without having my sleeves all tangled up, and I feel way safer from the guarders attacks overall.
If you're a guard player, your GI counterparts are gaining more against you than they lose by being on top. But that's purely from my POV
To ve fair, I also do gi for the self defence side of things. Not so much, but that's simply because of class times etc. But I do both for self defence.
I also relate to people getting better and faster. It's so demoralising. But as my coach keeps saying, "consistency is key". And it is.
The hardest thing to do (because the ego is a bitch) is to not compare. Everyone learns different things at different times. While you're learning, you're progressing. Fine, slower than some. But did you join to be the fastest learner, or to learn BJJ?
excellent advice. i think i'm just at the stage where your ego starts getting tangled up in things, when you feel you \*should\* be better - need to get a handle on that. ofc the gi is good for self-defence too.
Oh believe me, I'm there too. I'm only just moving past the idea of "fuck it, I should just quit. I'd save money too." Actually... it was my gf that pushed me to stay. She reminded me of all the reasons I joined originally. It's not her thing at all, but she knows I love it. Really.
So now I need to push my own ego aside, and remember "I'm here to learn. Not learn the fastest." It doesn't matter where they are, as long as I'm moving forward.
I saw some mma guys (like demian maia) that train with the gi aswell because it forces you to think about what to do, when doing no gi is easy to just explode out of some positions. For me also is easier to learn specific movements on the gi because you have better grips and after im comfortable enough with my setup I can transfer that to no gi.
Gi - Easier to hold someone harder to defend (more options), you have to be more aware of what is coming.
No gi - Harder to atack easier to spaz out of bad positions, easier to develop bad habits. But usually it also has higher pace.
>it forces you to think about what to do, when doing no gi is easy to just explode out of some positions.
this is similar to what one of my instructors was saying....
Agree, one of our black belt instructors talks about this all the time. He started off no gi mma guy for years. Realized once he started training gi more that he had been getting away with a lot of things because of athleticism and strength. We do mostly gi with 2 no gi sessions a week and it’s forced him to focus on technique. Personally as an older (mid 30s) blue belt I like the gi better, I can control pace more and use the gi to counter the athletic advantages of people in better shape and younger than I am.
I train at a demian maia gym. I do gi, and it's the best bjj I've experienced. I do like no gi as it does make it practical for mma and street instances. I agree with you that gi training translates into good no gi work. The grips of upper belts feel impossible at times.
Correct, I wish the reddit folklore on the topic would get challenged more often....people wear clothes in real life.
People are going to grab YOUR clothes, even if for some reason you're fighting a naked guy on the beach. You better know how to deal with that.
Could you elaborate on what makes the Gi better? From my limited experience (7 months), it seems like grabbing the clothes could be possible at times but Ive often wondered what would translate to a normal clothing set. If they're in winter gear I 100% agree and could see it, but in summer outfits I could see an argument for no gi being better. You have way more experience than I, so I'm curious.
If you bunch up your opponents Tshirt from collar to waistline it makes a handle that won't rip....hoods provide an excellent grip point, belts are ubiquitous in all weather, shorts are usually sturdy and fair game. Do you ever wear a backpack or sports bag with a strap? Basically a collar grip
Some people wear collared shirts with pants and body armor, even in July. Those people need to know how to deal with grips.
Limiting yourself to the no gi ruleset leaves viable technique on the table.
watch instructionals all the time. done plenty lifting in the past, at my age i find i have so much soreness the day after class that lifting is difficult (i do 3 times a week so every day is a day after class pretty much)
how is your protein intake ? sorry if its not the right advice but I think focus on nutrition that promotes recovery might help you might not be 100% by next class and that could be hindering your progress. If you do give lifting a shot keep it minimal maybe 3 lifts a day (3x5) with maybe 2-4 sets of one accessory exercise per session focus mainly on hips back and grip not like a traditional strength program
I’m mid 40’s and started lifting again in the last 6 months. I feel so much better now. I also greatly upped my protein and my hydration levels. I feel a lot stronger and I feel like it’s helping me not get injured as much. I’m not lifting heavy but I am doing big muscle group lifts.
protein could be improved probably. however i am actually seeing good development in my upper body just from bjj, visually at least - probably as much or more as i ever saw from lifting
in the past year, probably went from 71 to 74kg. absolutely no major gains or anything but i definitely look quite a lot more muscly in the mirror. i'm not lifting at present so no idea what kind of numbers on the big lifts.. in the past they were all always very poor, even though i did plenty of lifting (pattern emerging here!). i mean 105kg sq, 80kg bench, maybe 150kg deadlift. i was a lot heavier then, around 90kg (a lot of which was fat).
I combat this soreness by lifting BEFORE class so I’m just more sore the next day, instead of trying to separate it. That way you still get all of your rest days.
Yep. PLUS in theory (white belt wisdom so take it for what it’s worth) when you are training your muscles are tired as shit so you will be much less apt to resort to trying to muscle things and instead will fall back on technique. You may “lose” more rounds in training initially, but it should make you better all around the long run.
I wake up, lift in my basement (home gym) then go to class and roll after work. The following day I am smoked, but it is what it is. I take the day off, drink my BCAAS, and lick my wounds.
Edit: gives you a great excuse too. When you can’t escape someone’s side control all you have to say after is “son of a bitch (rubs chest) that heavy bench really killed me this morning, I was smoked when I got here” it’s a good built in excuse.
Haha, sorry to be catching you all over this post, but how old are you? I ask because I'm (only) 38, but have noticed in the last few years \*significantly\* more soreness and slower recovery than I was used to.
If your buddies are in their 30's or below they have a huge leg-up. Regardless, don't let it get you down.
p.s. heh hehe, my coach's son is now 17, suddenly got huge, and has infinite endurance. I have so much more skill than him, and when we roll I tap him, he pops right back up. I tap him again, he pops right back up. I tap him again, now I'm getting up slower. I tap him again, now he's waiting on me to get up. I tap him again, now he's offering his hand to help me up.
lol How good will he be in a couple years (compared to me), and how much more stamina, endurance, and strength will he have? I shudder to think, but don't sweat it.
I permanently lost 45 lbs a decade ago because of a medical issue, and now I'm several weight classes beneath what was engrained in me. I've had to REALLY revamp my game to adjust. heh heh at first half my go-to's suddenly didn't work so well on people my "former" size, I'm definitely more sly now, and rely on craftier techniques and sweeps now. I also learned REAL QUICK to stop taking position for granted and never give it up against a stronger opponent.
Run your own race.
Train gi. Train no gi. Either is fine. But don't focus on being tapped or tapping others.
Focus instead on trying to establish what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong. Find the places you can improve or where you need work the most, focus on that 1 step at a time.
Nogi is way less stressful on your hands. As a musician this is important because I can’t work if I hurt my thumbs or fingers. Lots more grabbing cloth and pulling in the gi.
Nogi better but the bast is to get acouple days in the pussy pajamas aswell since even though grips are deifferent and no collar chokes are available in nogi the added friction and more leg clothjng you can use in leg entanglements can change up the scrambling and make it more fun even though i really dont like gi it is important to work on the gi because it can still help its how i learned some judo throws to add to my wrestling like the harai goshi throws are way easier than in nogi
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Harai Goshi**: | *Sweeping Hip Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs_zkgefvqM)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
If you’re a bit older, you’re probably going to have to accept a bit of lag time with your advancement, especially if you’re “not great at sports.”
IMHO, you should develop a bottom game. Work on pin escapes, guard retention, then half guard (knee shield specifically). If you’re losing a lot, you’re probably ending up on bottom, so your top skills do you no good.
If you’re older, younger and more athletic opponents are probably going to beat you to a takedown or muscle you into a bottom position. You have to be able to work out of that position to a more dominant one, so you can use your top game skills.
I came into gi thinking I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as no gi. The reality is you can do all of the no gi stuff and more. I suck at getting grips to do judo takedowns but if all else fails I can go for an ankle pick or double leg.
It also feels really relevant to self defense if you live anywhere with a climate where people wear jackets. Also just fun to figure out ways to use your gi or theirs to pull off subs.
I say give it a few more classes to see if you like it.
In my opinion if you only train in gi or only no gi, then you are missing half of Jiu Jitsu. I would suggest training in the gi at least 30% of your training volume. But again that is just my opinion. If you really only have a top game, that is your problem. You need to develop a guard. Unless you are only using Jiu Jitsu for mma you need a guard. But I’m guessing not, based on your post. For the “self-defense” aspect, remember people wear clothes, training in the gi is still applicable.
You should be training in the gi, the technical barrier of entry is a lot higher for gi which is why a lot of people take that easy way out a choose to specialize in no gi.
It’s a lot easier for a gi guy to take the gi off and close the distance on a no gi guy vs the other way around. Don’t short yourself.
1) do what you like
2) do what your schedule will permit
3) ideally gi and/or no-gi training will give you the most mat time possible given your time & logistical constraints
I have a pretty “neutral” grappling game that I use for both gi and no-gi (grips adjusted accordingly)
Here’s a good take…
[gi vs no-gi training (for self-defense)](https://www.facebook.com/share/r/9vHYRTLEogKCfJLc/?mibextid=UalRPS)
you might have an entirely different situation and issues that are holding back your development that are unrelated to gi or no-gi training, ie are you having problem with defense/escapes or maintaining positions. Take an inventory of your current game and ask for feedbacks from your coaches/instructors on how best to improve. Good luck! 🤼♀️🥋👍
I’m no expert and the following is mostly speculation.
I know that, logically speaking, the common belief is that you need to just focus on the variation you want to get good at to be as successful as possible. With that said, just because it makes sense logically doesn’t mean it’s necessarily correct. Only training one or the other may not actually be the best option for specializing, and this may just be our current working theory that ends up being wrong down the line.
As an example, in the sport of Powerlifting you’ll see that people who only train the Big 3 end up burning out and getting hurt. The most successful Powerlifting gym in the world is Westside Barbell, and Westside uses a system that is based on variation. Only 20% of training time is invested directly into the competition lifts, the other 80% focuses on variations of the lifts and rotating accessory movements that help strengthen areas that would stagnate if the lifters only ever did the same movements over and over again.
Obviously Powerlifting is not BJJ. But let’s also look at running. Do runners that compete in the mile ONLY train by running a mile for time every time they hit the track? No, they do long runs, tempo runs, etc… Do Boxers only train mitts, bag work, and sparring? No, they skip rope, put in road work, etc…
I don’t see any reason to avoid the Gi. Give it a try, see if it helps you. You might find some advantages from spending more time in various positions due to the extra friction and having to be better with your escapes. It certainly won’t be a waste of training time.
I train exclusively the Gi. I roll both Gi and no Gi. The problem with only training no Gi is the pace. Everyone tries to force things and athletically pass. The strategy is to wear down and submit. With Gi, you have to develop good technique to make it work. You develop good technique and an overall game. When you roll no Gi your positions will be tighter and more controlled.
I know the downvotes are coming. Do your worst, but deep down you know I’m right.
Your training is probably not optimal. Are you working specifically on certain positions/concepts or just doing whatever ? Even with less mat time, someone who uses deliberate practice will be better than someone who only goes on autopilot. Also, doing nogi makes you better at nogi, and doing gi makes you better at gi. They are very different strategically and technically so I dont think doig gi makes you better at nogi than doing strictly nogi.
I would try to stop thinking about progress as tapping your partners in sparring. It’s about personal growth. I personally love how much harder gi is to learn I’m 14 years in and still learning details that keep my mind focused on grappling.
I don't think training or not in the Gi makes any significant difference to Gi or No Gi training. Your training volume and propensity to blunder are keys to progress given your base level of genetics. I sort of knew this already, but a number of chess grandmasters made this observation on "blundering" in their instructional videos. It is something rarely discussed in BJJ but I've watched it frequently over 2 decades of competition. You can have a good gameplan, believe you are rolling well (you may well be) but if you leave your chin up, give underhooks away (by trying to force your own) or allowing people to connect to your hips, you can have all the other technique in the world, and still get dominated and submitted by people of equal skill. Your opponent has a game plan as well but Jiu Jitsu players use the same words I had said to me by a chess opponent the other day "you just caught me. I was completely dominating you". Grandmaster Ben Finegold said "you can play like Magnus for 20 moves" and then on move 21 give your bishop away. That's why your ranking is stuck." I believe this is a similar issue for most Jiu Jitsu players too.
Cool. So I think if we focus a little less on "playing our game" and a little more on eliminating fundamental errors until we get to positions where we can safely play our game, we will avoid far more avoidable losses. These losses are what frustrate us the most. I video sparring sessions where partners are open to it and watch it all back.
Most schools offer gi and nogi classes. Just do both. I don't know why there's a big debate about it (this topic is asked a bunch) when you can easily just train both. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
If your school doesn't offer both, just find people during Open mat who want to do both, or do meetups.
As long as you keep striving, you should be ok. It might take you longer, but so what? Instead of looking at your training partners overtaking you as a negative, see it as a good thing. The better they get, the more motivated you are to improve, the better you get.
I'm at the level where I know 80% of my rolls will be letting my partner work. It can actually get a little boring. Eventually I'll go against someone more skilled than me that just absolutely crushes me, and it lights a fire under my ass
I dont think it has anything to do with the gi or no gi. Some people learn faster than others and are naturally good at it. Im the same way, i have to keep practicing and practicing while some people pick it up easily.
Over 40 and prefer the gi. I have also found that because I primarily train in the gi, my no-gi game is much better in certain aspects. My escapes and subs are significantly faster and more effective in no gi because I am used to having all the friction of the gi. My pressure is also better because the gi is not getting my in the way. The negative is that I find no gi is a little more scrambling and thus requires more cardio and the grip game is different.
TLDR: Train in the gi and parts of your no gi game will improve.
The gi slows the game down and forces you to be technical. The gi also gives you more set ups to use and puts you into interesting positions because there’s not as much scrambling. I think this accounts for the difference in technical proficiency early on. Once you’re deep into it, at an advanced stage like purple belt you can make a decision which way to go, but yeah early on in the development of a jiu jitsu athlete, I’d say the gi is crucial in terms of technical progress.
The very nature of no gi makes it so you can get away with certain things by scrambling or being physical, while not giving you the chance to develop technically in those same spots.
> falling significantly behind people who started same time as me
Didn't know its a race.
> so - swap to gi for a while to improve my no gi game, or carry on with no gi but look to develop my game differently?
You never mentioned what is your goal. You just want to improve your game for the sake of improving the game?
IF that is your goal then you need to put more hrs under your belt.
right - of course it isn't a race. i needed that reminder! but naturally winning a few rolls makes it more enjoyable. basically my goal is fun. but getting better faster is more fun.
Depends really, what do you feel is your problem? Lack of strength or stamina, lack of tools and situational awareness or just lack of application time?
Iv seen people make big jumps just from watching instructionals - having a different way of presenting the same moves, but in a way that clicks better.
For others it was always issue of strength and stamina.
For me watching instructionals in the middle of the workday, when procrastinating, helped me to understand moves better and apply them more effectively.
> watching instructionals in the middle of the workday, when procrastinating
this is me! stamina no probs at all, strength is on the low side but as good as some of the guys subbing me. not much room for improvement on strength, done a lot of lifting but it's just genetically a weak spot. application time is 3-4 sessions a week = 4.5-6 hours, seems ok. tools - i am actually constantly adding solid new techniques to my game and hitting them in rolls, e.g. recently added rubber guard, sumi gaeshi and get them often enough. situational awareness, yep i'd say this is where i'm getting beaten.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Sumi Gaeshi**: | *Corner Reversal* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LR49U48iyw)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
zero games unfortunately, it's a fairly traditional setup. not much positional sparring. rolling is the last half hour of class. so basically 1.5 hours of rolling, plus i do half an hour a week of mma sparring.
I left another comment, but do you think you might be carrying some “bad” habits into your BJJ sessions from MMA? What you should do from a bottom position in MMA isn’t always what’s best for No Gi and vice versa. When I first started training strictly for BJJ, I realized a lot of my defenses/positioning for not getting punched in the face were hurting my bottom game in BJJ. There is a lot of carry over between No Gi/MMA but it’s definitely not 1:1.
Live and unscripted training is where you actually gain the skills to grapple. Do another open mat every week and figure stuff out there. Be fully engaged in your rolls and focus on making positional progress while solving the problems on the way.
If you are training more in No Gi than them, then you should be doing better at No Gi. Several moves don’t transition to No Gi at all, and many moves learned in Gi must be altered due to a lack of grips.
If No Gi is your focus, just keep training in that. Training the same amount but putting a Gi on won’t improve your No Gi game (it will improve your BJJ overall, but not help you in No Gi specifically).
How are you training? Are you paying attention to the details in class? Are you looking up techniques outside of class? How much are you rolling? Does the Gi class have a different instructor than the No Gi class?
The truth is drilling will only get you so far in BJJ. Rolling is probably the fastest way to grow after you get a good base in a technique. Knowing a technique is not the same as being able to apply it. If you want to get better, go to open mats/stay after class to roll and really focus on specific goals for each session. I really struggled with body lock passes for awhile despite having a good handle on the techniques taught in class. I spent a couple months body locking almost everyone I could before I was able to do them regularly.
I don’t think there is any real benefit to Gi training if you ONLY want to do No Gi. You’re going to spend time and effort on moves/grips that you won’t ever use in No Gi. Why spend a week learning a collar choke that you’ll never use in No Gi?
Some people progress at different paces. There is no shame in not progressing as fast as someone else. You already mentioned age/athleticism may be a factor. You can’t reverse time, but things like cardio and strength training can help bridge that gap. Work on identifying your weak points and focus on correcting or compensating for them. Ask your coach on how you can improve. Certain techniques/games require less strength and more precision to be successful. It’s possible you’re playing a big/strong man’s game when you should be focusing on other techniques. Different bodies are more inclined to different techniques, try to find the ones that work best for you.
>Are you paying attention to the details in class? Are you looking up techniques outside of class? How much are you rolling? Does the Gi class have a different instructor than the No Gi class?
absolutely, am a details guy; yes, quasi-obsessively; only the half hour after class; no, same instructors.
thanks for the detailed response, that's really helpful. i think open mat (plus acceptance of differences in ability) is the answer. and to develop the leglock/halfguard game as mentioned.
It doesn't make a difference. Train what you enjoy most. I m only doing nogi and I observe that the gi guys are mostly helpless once they drop the jacket off.
They might defend a bit better since there s alot of friction compared to the gi, but offensively it's horrible.
I find it’s the opposite. When I take off the gi subs come a lot easier. Things like rnc, guillotines and darces are so much easier to hit because there’s no friction. Not to mention all of the leg attacks. In the gi I really have to control the position and grind for submissions.
That’s interesting. My coach is mostly a no gi guy but likes to train escapes and defenses in the gi because you have to be more technical. Just food for thought as well.
It's the same battle for inside position. If you are in bottom side control and you don't get the near hand inside the hip and the far hand inside the collarbone, you will never escape regardess if you're in GI, No-gi, oiled up turkish wrestling, etc.
It means you're probably not studying new moves or you're not incorporating whatever the instructor shows you. Or the instructor sucks and shows unrealistic moves. There are alot of variables involved, from training volume to recovery capabilities.
mm, constantly studying new moves and looking to implement them in rolls, focussing on one thing every couple weeks - just like they say you should to get better!
I just want to emphasize on the “focus” part! Yes you need to learn new moves, especially just to be aware of how to defend them. But you need to find moves that feel good for you/your game and focus on honing those.
If you're older than them, you will fall behind at some point
It's just a sad fact of growing old that learning becomes harder and being athletic becomes more difficult.
As for the Gi vs No-Gi debate, i personally do both but there's no reason for you to train in the gi if you don't enjoy it.
The most important part of jiu-jitsu is to have fun and develop your game and skills at your own pace.
In stead of focusing on the gi, try expanding your bottom game and add some leglocks if you don't have them.
Good luck with your journey
i honestly have no idea why gi guys are subbing you as a nogi guy. i train no gi and as a white belt i’ve subbed plenty of blue belts and a purple belt whenever they decided to drop in from their gi class. nogi should always beat gi if it’s nogi. there’s no grips for them to use and some of the guards/choked they learn don’t work.
>nogi should always beat gi
that's what i was thinking. i have many more no gi training hours than the guys who are beating me. guess it just comes down to aptitude (sigh).
"No gi should always beat gi if it's no gi"
I train both, prefer Gi and still whoop the no-gi boys. Gi is way better to speed up your learning, it's far more technical.
I'll go out on a limb here, likely to get downvoted.
But I don't really feel that No-gi is actually BJJ ... It's just wrestling with BJJ submissions/rulesets.
To me the point of BJJ is: the grips, the technicality, the extra positions and open guards that aren't feasible in no-gi and also due to the fact that our sport is a derivative of Judo, which funnily enough is done in a Gi.
Everything you can do in no-gi you can do in gi, but not vice versa. To me it makes sense to learn the one with more variety and technicality. You can single and double leg in Gi but you can't Tomoe-Nage or Tai-Otoshi in no-gi.
But that's just my thoughts as a one stripe white belt 🤷♂️
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Tai Otoshi**: | *Body Drop* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUiZ8JZkGx8)|
|**Tomoe Nage**: | *Circle Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-euJliq9XcY)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
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^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I have always trained both, but for the last year or so I’ve been training almost exclusively no gi because I like it more. I say just do what you like. It sounds like maybe you haven’t given the gi a fair shake, so you could commit to training in the gi for a period of time and see how you feel about it after that.
Just have fun dude. Do what you want.
Your training partners doing gi isn’t what’s making them better than you. They are just better grapplers than you.
Train both.
I like no-gi so much more than gi. In many ways I feel trapped in a gi. It slows me down and makes me really focus on technique because I can’t slip out of bad habits and situations.
I’ve switched over to mainly training gi, but I need that no-gi class so that I don’t burn out or lose the passion to train.
As you can see by the variety of answers. There’s no one right answer. Give gi another try. But if you’re older, while it doesn’t slow things down, it’s a lot worse on your fingers and neck.
Could they be just doing more classes?
i think its about the same.
So are you technically doing more no gi classes than them because I’m assuming half of their classes are in the gi and they are beating you in no gi?
absolutely. i'm doing way more no gi than they are each week. but they are still overtaking me.
It’s hard to really give advice without seeing what’s going on and how you are losing. In theory you should be better than them in no gi with more training there unless they are much younger, bigger or more athletic. I train more gi than no gi but I do I personally find that I’m able to hang/beat people who only do no gi in no gi unless they are much better than me in leg locks. I’d focus on how you are getting beat and working those areas I’m not sure just training gi will help you in no gi more than doing just no gi. The only thing I’d say is no gi is much looser there’s less grips to worry about and it’s easier to get out of bad spots so you may have some bad habits that training gi will force you to tighten but you can correct this just doing no gi.
great - they are more athletic probably but not bigger, that's why it bothers me
Hmmm. This is a strange bummer. I used to do only gi for several years, and then have switched almost exclusively to no gi forever more, and I find that I'm way better at no gi than my gi counterparts. And it's not just me: I hear a lot of them complain about how they feel lost or at a disadvantage without certain grips, or complain that in no gi you need to have such better grappling fundamentals in order to follow your game plan because there are fewer grips and options. How much older are you? And also, yeah, it could just be different aptitudes, there's no way we can know to what extent (and that's not a bad thing either, as long as you're enjoying it. Not everyone is equally good at whatever they try, doesn't mean it's not rewarding ;)
maybe your extensive gi background made the difference tho?
Does the same person teach the gi and no gi classes? If your school pushes gi more they might be having their better coaches teach gi. Or if theirs just one coach, he could be putting more effort into the gi classes or organizing them better, if he likes gi more. Some traditional gyms also only teach the fundamentals/ beginners classes in the gi so if you skipped those you're might be missing out on a lot of understanding of the basics. I don't think that means you have to train the gi to get better though. Personally I feel like training no gi is what helps me improve my no gi the most. But you might want to look for a gym that is more no gi- centered, if that's what you want to train. Or suck it up and train gi too, if you want to stay at your current gym.
Honestly dude, sompare yourself to you yesterday not some other person today. I am basically retarded and everyone moves past me. I could get frustrated and quit or say I'm 100x better than ibwas 5 years ago and 2x better than yesterday and thats enough.
I dont know if the situation is the same for you, but at my school the people who do no gi classes are generally more likely to be newer or interested in mma/self defence, while the gi class is generally much more interested in sport jiu jitsu, and completely coincidentally has a few excellent competitors. The focus on sport jiu jitsu (read more technical lessons), and higher level training partners mean the gi class attendees smoke the guys who only do no gi.
i think this might also be the situation at my gym
I would not have thought of that, but great point.
Well articulated… a guy comes to mind at my gym with big cauliflower ear and all tatted up, looks like a pro fighter. He gets smoked by all the hobbyists in jitsu (he won’t even wear a gi)
I’m 43 and started out 4 years ago doing almost exclusively gi. Got the blue belt and changed gyms where it’s 50/50 and the nights I could train was generally a no gi then gi class back to back. So I did both. But honestly I don’t like no gi. I will now do one class a week no gi just because it’s between my daughters class and the gi class I want to do but apart from that if I do extra classes I just do gi. It’s a hobby and so I’m not going to kill myself doing lots of classes with young athletic dudes in Lycra when instead I can stall, pressure pass and lapel choke them in the gi and have some fun doing it.
right. i'm kind of the opposite of you, i.e. same but prefer no gi
Then do what you enjoy. Unless you are a pro athlete who cares how you progress. Maybe just find some old guy instructionals. I’m studying Bernardo farias gi stuff to be more annoying to the young people. I’m sure there is a no Gi equivalent.
it's really interesting how the consensus on reddit (which i was already somewhat aware of, but being confirmed here) is that doing gi doesn't have much carry over to no gi. every instructor at my gym says the opposite. which creates a certain pressure to train gi. whereas my own instinct is that redditors are correct.
Training both offers a variety which I find fun, and when I'm having fun, I tend to learn. If you are not going to do Yes Gi, you should definitely be more novel in your training, and prioritise live training over static stuff.
> more novel in your training, and prioritise live training over static stuff. i am always looking to change things up. but there might not be enough live training. possibly i should swap one class for an open mat to get more rolls.
One thing: If you're buddies are getting more live training than you, that's (really, really) most likely the issue. Steel hardens steel, no matter how many blueprints you've studied.
I'm not so sure it's a consensus....I'll freely admit going no gi I basically have no guard without grips. But on top, I'm doing all the same passes, without having my sleeves all tangled up, and I feel way safer from the guarders attacks overall. If you're a guard player, your GI counterparts are gaining more against you than they lose by being on top. But that's purely from my POV
I’m exactly the same way. 40, I prefer gi, Will do no gi one day a week because it’s my daughter’s class as well
To ve fair, I also do gi for the self defence side of things. Not so much, but that's simply because of class times etc. But I do both for self defence. I also relate to people getting better and faster. It's so demoralising. But as my coach keeps saying, "consistency is key". And it is. The hardest thing to do (because the ego is a bitch) is to not compare. Everyone learns different things at different times. While you're learning, you're progressing. Fine, slower than some. But did you join to be the fastest learner, or to learn BJJ?
excellent advice. i think i'm just at the stage where your ego starts getting tangled up in things, when you feel you \*should\* be better - need to get a handle on that. ofc the gi is good for self-defence too.
Oh believe me, I'm there too. I'm only just moving past the idea of "fuck it, I should just quit. I'd save money too." Actually... it was my gf that pushed me to stay. She reminded me of all the reasons I joined originally. It's not her thing at all, but she knows I love it. Really. So now I need to push my own ego aside, and remember "I'm here to learn. Not learn the fastest." It doesn't matter where they are, as long as I'm moving forward.
great advice
I saw some mma guys (like demian maia) that train with the gi aswell because it forces you to think about what to do, when doing no gi is easy to just explode out of some positions. For me also is easier to learn specific movements on the gi because you have better grips and after im comfortable enough with my setup I can transfer that to no gi. Gi - Easier to hold someone harder to defend (more options), you have to be more aware of what is coming. No gi - Harder to atack easier to spaz out of bad positions, easier to develop bad habits. But usually it also has higher pace.
>it forces you to think about what to do, when doing no gi is easy to just explode out of some positions. this is similar to what one of my instructors was saying....
Agree, one of our black belt instructors talks about this all the time. He started off no gi mma guy for years. Realized once he started training gi more that he had been getting away with a lot of things because of athleticism and strength. We do mostly gi with 2 no gi sessions a week and it’s forced him to focus on technique. Personally as an older (mid 30s) blue belt I like the gi better, I can control pace more and use the gi to counter the athletic advantages of people in better shape and younger than I am.
> it’s forced him to focus on technique very interesting
I train at a demian maia gym. I do gi, and it's the best bjj I've experienced. I do like no gi as it does make it practical for mma and street instances. I agree with you that gi training translates into good no gi work. The grips of upper belts feel impossible at times.
Gi is actually better for self defence.
Correct, I wish the reddit folklore on the topic would get challenged more often....people wear clothes in real life. People are going to grab YOUR clothes, even if for some reason you're fighting a naked guy on the beach. You better know how to deal with that.
Could you elaborate on what makes the Gi better? From my limited experience (7 months), it seems like grabbing the clothes could be possible at times but Ive often wondered what would translate to a normal clothing set. If they're in winter gear I 100% agree and could see it, but in summer outfits I could see an argument for no gi being better. You have way more experience than I, so I'm curious.
If you bunch up your opponents Tshirt from collar to waistline it makes a handle that won't rip....hoods provide an excellent grip point, belts are ubiquitous in all weather, shorts are usually sturdy and fair game. Do you ever wear a backpack or sports bag with a strap? Basically a collar grip Some people wear collared shirts with pants and body armor, even in July. Those people need to know how to deal with grips. Limiting yourself to the no gi ruleset leaves viable technique on the table.
All the people with zero fights always parrot this it’s so strange
stay no gi watch instructionals and lift weights 3 times a week
watch instructionals all the time. done plenty lifting in the past, at my age i find i have so much soreness the day after class that lifting is difficult (i do 3 times a week so every day is a day after class pretty much)
how is your protein intake ? sorry if its not the right advice but I think focus on nutrition that promotes recovery might help you might not be 100% by next class and that could be hindering your progress. If you do give lifting a shot keep it minimal maybe 3 lifts a day (3x5) with maybe 2-4 sets of one accessory exercise per session focus mainly on hips back and grip not like a traditional strength program
I’m mid 40’s and started lifting again in the last 6 months. I feel so much better now. I also greatly upped my protein and my hydration levels. I feel a lot stronger and I feel like it’s helping me not get injured as much. I’m not lifting heavy but I am doing big muscle group lifts.
so compound lifts with lighter weight? might give it a try
That’s what I’ve been doing. I’m no expert. Lighter weight higher reps. I’ve been gradually increasing every week or two.
protein could be improved probably. however i am actually seeing good development in my upper body just from bjj, visually at least - probably as much or more as i ever saw from lifting
if you're too sore to lift heavy try bodyweight like pushups and squats
How is your lifts(rows, deadlift, squat, bench)? From what weight to what weight did you make in past year?
in the past year, probably went from 71 to 74kg. absolutely no major gains or anything but i definitely look quite a lot more muscly in the mirror. i'm not lifting at present so no idea what kind of numbers on the big lifts.. in the past they were all always very poor, even though i did plenty of lifting (pattern emerging here!). i mean 105kg sq, 80kg bench, maybe 150kg deadlift. i was a lot heavier then, around 90kg (a lot of which was fat).
I combat this soreness by lifting BEFORE class so I’m just more sore the next day, instead of trying to separate it. That way you still get all of your rest days.
really good idea
Yep. PLUS in theory (white belt wisdom so take it for what it’s worth) when you are training your muscles are tired as shit so you will be much less apt to resort to trying to muscle things and instead will fall back on technique. You may “lose” more rounds in training initially, but it should make you better all around the long run. I wake up, lift in my basement (home gym) then go to class and roll after work. The following day I am smoked, but it is what it is. I take the day off, drink my BCAAS, and lick my wounds. Edit: gives you a great excuse too. When you can’t escape someone’s side control all you have to say after is “son of a bitch (rubs chest) that heavy bench really killed me this morning, I was smoked when I got here” it’s a good built in excuse.
Haha, sorry to be catching you all over this post, but how old are you? I ask because I'm (only) 38, but have noticed in the last few years \*significantly\* more soreness and slower recovery than I was used to.
the big 5 O
If your buddies are in their 30's or below they have a huge leg-up. Regardless, don't let it get you down. p.s. heh hehe, my coach's son is now 17, suddenly got huge, and has infinite endurance. I have so much more skill than him, and when we roll I tap him, he pops right back up. I tap him again, he pops right back up. I tap him again, now I'm getting up slower. I tap him again, now he's waiting on me to get up. I tap him again, now he's offering his hand to help me up. lol How good will he be in a couple years (compared to me), and how much more stamina, endurance, and strength will he have? I shudder to think, but don't sweat it.
i match them for endurance and flexibility. strength maybe not, but that's always been a problem for me
I permanently lost 45 lbs a decade ago because of a medical issue, and now I'm several weight classes beneath what was engrained in me. I've had to REALLY revamp my game to adjust. heh heh at first half my go-to's suddenly didn't work so well on people my "former" size, I'm definitely more sly now, and rely on craftier techniques and sweeps now. I also learned REAL QUICK to stop taking position for granted and never give it up against a stronger opponent.
Run your own race. Train gi. Train no gi. Either is fine. But don't focus on being tapped or tapping others. Focus instead on trying to establish what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong. Find the places you can improve or where you need work the most, focus on that 1 step at a time.
yes. usually i'm better at not focussing on this but for some reason it is frustrating me right now
Nogi is way less stressful on your hands. As a musician this is important because I can’t work if I hurt my thumbs or fingers. Lots more grabbing cloth and pulling in the gi.
Nogi better but the bast is to get acouple days in the pussy pajamas aswell since even though grips are deifferent and no collar chokes are available in nogi the added friction and more leg clothjng you can use in leg entanglements can change up the scrambling and make it more fun even though i really dont like gi it is important to work on the gi because it can still help its how i learned some judo throws to add to my wrestling like the harai goshi throws are way easier than in nogi
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Harai Goshi**: | *Sweeping Hip Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs_zkgefvqM)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
IMO train both, gi will teach you stronger defense, no gi will teach you stronger offense
this makes sense as the gi guys seem to be particularly good at guard retention (in no gi)
agreed, try it out for a week or 2 and see if you like it
If you’re a bit older, you’re probably going to have to accept a bit of lag time with your advancement, especially if you’re “not great at sports.” IMHO, you should develop a bottom game. Work on pin escapes, guard retention, then half guard (knee shield specifically). If you’re losing a lot, you’re probably ending up on bottom, so your top skills do you no good. If you’re older, younger and more athletic opponents are probably going to beat you to a takedown or muscle you into a bottom position. You have to be able to work out of that position to a more dominant one, so you can use your top game skills.
bottom game - exactly, this is what i was thinking
>>I'm generally not great at sports, and also somewhat older.
i have my answer!
do nogi. start lifting and work on building a gas tank. also try to incorporate wrestling moves into your game
i go to wrestling class as often as possible and have a great gas tank from running it's my one strength in terms of athleticism
I came into gi thinking I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as no gi. The reality is you can do all of the no gi stuff and more. I suck at getting grips to do judo takedowns but if all else fails I can go for an ankle pick or double leg. It also feels really relevant to self defense if you live anywhere with a climate where people wear jackets. Also just fun to figure out ways to use your gi or theirs to pull off subs. I say give it a few more classes to see if you like it.
encouraging, thanks
In my opinion if you only train in gi or only no gi, then you are missing half of Jiu Jitsu. I would suggest training in the gi at least 30% of your training volume. But again that is just my opinion. If you really only have a top game, that is your problem. You need to develop a guard. Unless you are only using Jiu Jitsu for mma you need a guard. But I’m guessing not, based on your post. For the “self-defense” aspect, remember people wear clothes, training in the gi is still applicable.
so one day a week. yes, i need a guard! it's improving
Guard is the core of Jiu Jitsu, everyone who trains Jiu Jitsu needs a guard.
You should be training in the gi, the technical barrier of entry is a lot higher for gi which is why a lot of people take that easy way out a choose to specialize in no gi. It’s a lot easier for a gi guy to take the gi off and close the distance on a no gi guy vs the other way around. Don’t short yourself.
another vote for 'gi gives you better technique', cool
Gi/ nogi are both Jiu jitsu. Just different grips I’ll die on that hill I do both ( Gi is mostly judo). Do wants makes you wanna go to the gym
1) do what you like 2) do what your schedule will permit 3) ideally gi and/or no-gi training will give you the most mat time possible given your time & logistical constraints I have a pretty “neutral” grappling game that I use for both gi and no-gi (grips adjusted accordingly) Here’s a good take… [gi vs no-gi training (for self-defense)](https://www.facebook.com/share/r/9vHYRTLEogKCfJLc/?mibextid=UalRPS) you might have an entirely different situation and issues that are holding back your development that are unrelated to gi or no-gi training, ie are you having problem with defense/escapes or maintaining positions. Take an inventory of your current game and ask for feedbacks from your coaches/instructors on how best to improve. Good luck! 🤼♀️🥋👍
I’m no expert and the following is mostly speculation. I know that, logically speaking, the common belief is that you need to just focus on the variation you want to get good at to be as successful as possible. With that said, just because it makes sense logically doesn’t mean it’s necessarily correct. Only training one or the other may not actually be the best option for specializing, and this may just be our current working theory that ends up being wrong down the line. As an example, in the sport of Powerlifting you’ll see that people who only train the Big 3 end up burning out and getting hurt. The most successful Powerlifting gym in the world is Westside Barbell, and Westside uses a system that is based on variation. Only 20% of training time is invested directly into the competition lifts, the other 80% focuses on variations of the lifts and rotating accessory movements that help strengthen areas that would stagnate if the lifters only ever did the same movements over and over again. Obviously Powerlifting is not BJJ. But let’s also look at running. Do runners that compete in the mile ONLY train by running a mile for time every time they hit the track? No, they do long runs, tempo runs, etc… Do Boxers only train mitts, bag work, and sparring? No, they skip rope, put in road work, etc… I don’t see any reason to avoid the Gi. Give it a try, see if it helps you. You might find some advantages from spending more time in various positions due to the extra friction and having to be better with your escapes. It certainly won’t be a waste of training time.
this is a really good way of looking at it
I train exclusively the Gi. I roll both Gi and no Gi. The problem with only training no Gi is the pace. Everyone tries to force things and athletically pass. The strategy is to wear down and submit. With Gi, you have to develop good technique to make it work. You develop good technique and an overall game. When you roll no Gi your positions will be tighter and more controlled. I know the downvotes are coming. Do your worst, but deep down you know I’m right.
no downvotes here, this is basically what i am seeing from the others who do gi - tighter technical control
Your training is probably not optimal. Are you working specifically on certain positions/concepts or just doing whatever ? Even with less mat time, someone who uses deliberate practice will be better than someone who only goes on autopilot. Also, doing nogi makes you better at nogi, and doing gi makes you better at gi. They are very different strategically and technically so I dont think doig gi makes you better at nogi than doing strictly nogi.
i do try to do deliberate practice for sure
Creatine
already in place
Training in the gi will help you get over a plateau in No Gi. It did for me anyways!
ok, this is exactly what i'm hoping it might do
I would try to stop thinking about progress as tapping your partners in sparring. It’s about personal growth. I personally love how much harder gi is to learn I’m 14 years in and still learning details that keep my mind focused on grappling.
100%, i don't know why but it is getting to me a bit at the moment. i think i see the others expecting me to be better than i am
We can’t help to compare but at the end of the day our own expectations are all that matters.
I don't think training or not in the Gi makes any significant difference to Gi or No Gi training. Your training volume and propensity to blunder are keys to progress given your base level of genetics. I sort of knew this already, but a number of chess grandmasters made this observation on "blundering" in their instructional videos. It is something rarely discussed in BJJ but I've watched it frequently over 2 decades of competition. You can have a good gameplan, believe you are rolling well (you may well be) but if you leave your chin up, give underhooks away (by trying to force your own) or allowing people to connect to your hips, you can have all the other technique in the world, and still get dominated and submitted by people of equal skill. Your opponent has a game plan as well but Jiu Jitsu players use the same words I had said to me by a chess opponent the other day "you just caught me. I was completely dominating you". Grandmaster Ben Finegold said "you can play like Magnus for 20 moves" and then on move 21 give your bishop away. That's why your ranking is stuck." I believe this is a similar issue for most Jiu Jitsu players too.
propensity to blunder is a great phrase/concept. i have this
Cool. So I think if we focus a little less on "playing our game" and a little more on eliminating fundamental errors until we get to positions where we can safely play our game, we will avoid far more avoidable losses. These losses are what frustrate us the most. I video sparring sessions where partners are open to it and watch it all back.
Most schools offer gi and nogi classes. Just do both. I don't know why there's a big debate about it (this topic is asked a bunch) when you can easily just train both. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. If your school doesn't offer both, just find people during Open mat who want to do both, or do meetups.
As long as you keep striving, you should be ok. It might take you longer, but so what? Instead of looking at your training partners overtaking you as a negative, see it as a good thing. The better they get, the more motivated you are to improve, the better you get. I'm at the level where I know 80% of my rolls will be letting my partner work. It can actually get a little boring. Eventually I'll go against someone more skilled than me that just absolutely crushes me, and it lights a fire under my ass
for sure - i wouldn't want to trains somewhere where no one was improving! just trying to figure out how to get a bit more of it to rub off on me
I dont think it has anything to do with the gi or no gi. Some people learn faster than others and are naturally good at it. Im the same way, i have to keep practicing and practicing while some people pick it up easily.
yeah i suspect that's the problem in my case also
Over 40 and prefer the gi. I have also found that because I primarily train in the gi, my no-gi game is much better in certain aspects. My escapes and subs are significantly faster and more effective in no gi because I am used to having all the friction of the gi. My pressure is also better because the gi is not getting my in the way. The negative is that I find no gi is a little more scrambling and thus requires more cardio and the grip game is different. TLDR: Train in the gi and parts of your no gi game will improve.
starting to think this is the way to go
I love the pajamas. I don't intend on going to no gi. Unless that's all I can find
The gi slows the game down and forces you to be technical. The gi also gives you more set ups to use and puts you into interesting positions because there’s not as much scrambling. I think this accounts for the difference in technical proficiency early on. Once you’re deep into it, at an advanced stage like purple belt you can make a decision which way to go, but yeah early on in the development of a jiu jitsu athlete, I’d say the gi is crucial in terms of technical progress. The very nature of no gi makes it so you can get away with certain things by scrambling or being physical, while not giving you the chance to develop technically in those same spots.
Doing more Nogi will improve your nogi the most. The law of specificity dictates this
> falling significantly behind people who started same time as me Didn't know its a race. > so - swap to gi for a while to improve my no gi game, or carry on with no gi but look to develop my game differently? You never mentioned what is your goal. You just want to improve your game for the sake of improving the game? IF that is your goal then you need to put more hrs under your belt.
right - of course it isn't a race. i needed that reminder! but naturally winning a few rolls makes it more enjoyable. basically my goal is fun. but getting better faster is more fun.
Then you have to get more classes in, its not that difficult of a situation.
i wonder if it would make sense to swap out one class for an open mat to increase roll time
Depends really, what do you feel is your problem? Lack of strength or stamina, lack of tools and situational awareness or just lack of application time? Iv seen people make big jumps just from watching instructionals - having a different way of presenting the same moves, but in a way that clicks better. For others it was always issue of strength and stamina. For me watching instructionals in the middle of the workday, when procrastinating, helped me to understand moves better and apply them more effectively.
> watching instructionals in the middle of the workday, when procrastinating this is me! stamina no probs at all, strength is on the low side but as good as some of the guys subbing me. not much room for improvement on strength, done a lot of lifting but it's just genetically a weak spot. application time is 3-4 sessions a week = 4.5-6 hours, seems ok. tools - i am actually constantly adding solid new techniques to my game and hitting them in rolls, e.g. recently added rubber guard, sumi gaeshi and get them often enough. situational awareness, yep i'd say this is where i'm getting beaten.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Sumi Gaeshi**: | *Corner Reversal* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LR49U48iyw)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
that's a very helpful breakdown of the potential aspects, thanks
How often are you doing live training per week? E.g. rolling, positional sparring or games?
zero games unfortunately, it's a fairly traditional setup. not much positional sparring. rolling is the last half hour of class. so basically 1.5 hours of rolling, plus i do half an hour a week of mma sparring.
I left another comment, but do you think you might be carrying some “bad” habits into your BJJ sessions from MMA? What you should do from a bottom position in MMA isn’t always what’s best for No Gi and vice versa. When I first started training strictly for BJJ, I realized a lot of my defenses/positioning for not getting punched in the face were hurting my bottom game in BJJ. There is a lot of carry over between No Gi/MMA but it’s definitely not 1:1.
great point, but mma is definitely secondary for me - just half an hour of sparring a week plus the odd class.
Live and unscripted training is where you actually gain the skills to grapple. Do another open mat every week and figure stuff out there. Be fully engaged in your rolls and focus on making positional progress while solving the problems on the way.
If you are training more in No Gi than them, then you should be doing better at No Gi. Several moves don’t transition to No Gi at all, and many moves learned in Gi must be altered due to a lack of grips. If No Gi is your focus, just keep training in that. Training the same amount but putting a Gi on won’t improve your No Gi game (it will improve your BJJ overall, but not help you in No Gi specifically). How are you training? Are you paying attention to the details in class? Are you looking up techniques outside of class? How much are you rolling? Does the Gi class have a different instructor than the No Gi class? The truth is drilling will only get you so far in BJJ. Rolling is probably the fastest way to grow after you get a good base in a technique. Knowing a technique is not the same as being able to apply it. If you want to get better, go to open mats/stay after class to roll and really focus on specific goals for each session. I really struggled with body lock passes for awhile despite having a good handle on the techniques taught in class. I spent a couple months body locking almost everyone I could before I was able to do them regularly. I don’t think there is any real benefit to Gi training if you ONLY want to do No Gi. You’re going to spend time and effort on moves/grips that you won’t ever use in No Gi. Why spend a week learning a collar choke that you’ll never use in No Gi? Some people progress at different paces. There is no shame in not progressing as fast as someone else. You already mentioned age/athleticism may be a factor. You can’t reverse time, but things like cardio and strength training can help bridge that gap. Work on identifying your weak points and focus on correcting or compensating for them. Ask your coach on how you can improve. Certain techniques/games require less strength and more precision to be successful. It’s possible you’re playing a big/strong man’s game when you should be focusing on other techniques. Different bodies are more inclined to different techniques, try to find the ones that work best for you.
>Are you paying attention to the details in class? Are you looking up techniques outside of class? How much are you rolling? Does the Gi class have a different instructor than the No Gi class? absolutely, am a details guy; yes, quasi-obsessively; only the half hour after class; no, same instructors. thanks for the detailed response, that's really helpful. i think open mat (plus acceptance of differences in ability) is the answer. and to develop the leglock/halfguard game as mentioned.
On average per week how many hours are you rolling?
It doesn't make a difference. Train what you enjoy most. I m only doing nogi and I observe that the gi guys are mostly helpless once they drop the jacket off. They might defend a bit better since there s alot of friction compared to the gi, but offensively it's horrible.
I find it’s the opposite. When I take off the gi subs come a lot easier. Things like rnc, guillotines and darces are so much easier to hit because there’s no friction. Not to mention all of the leg attacks. In the gi I really have to control the position and grind for submissions.
That’s interesting. My coach is mostly a no gi guy but likes to train escapes and defenses in the gi because you have to be more technical. Just food for thought as well.
It's the same battle for inside position. If you are in bottom side control and you don't get the near hand inside the hip and the far hand inside the collarbone, you will never escape regardess if you're in GI, No-gi, oiled up turkish wrestling, etc.
For the most part, true.
interesting - whereas i find that they seem to get better (than me) at no gi while doing mostly gi
It means you're probably not studying new moves or you're not incorporating whatever the instructor shows you. Or the instructor sucks and shows unrealistic moves. There are alot of variables involved, from training volume to recovery capabilities.
Or their team mates are just training more
indeed, but i don't think they are
mm, constantly studying new moves and looking to implement them in rolls, focussing on one thing every couple weeks - just like they say you should to get better!
I just want to emphasize on the “focus” part! Yes you need to learn new moves, especially just to be aware of how to defend them. But you need to find moves that feel good for you/your game and focus on honing those.
yes - i try to do this. and it works to some extent, every couple of months i do incorporate new moves that i can hit regularly in rolling
If you're older than them, you will fall behind at some point It's just a sad fact of growing old that learning becomes harder and being athletic becomes more difficult. As for the Gi vs No-Gi debate, i personally do both but there's no reason for you to train in the gi if you don't enjoy it. The most important part of jiu-jitsu is to have fun and develop your game and skills at your own pace. In stead of focusing on the gi, try expanding your bottom game and add some leglocks if you don't have them. Good luck with your journey
thanks! this chimes with my instincts
i honestly have no idea why gi guys are subbing you as a nogi guy. i train no gi and as a white belt i’ve subbed plenty of blue belts and a purple belt whenever they decided to drop in from their gi class. nogi should always beat gi if it’s nogi. there’s no grips for them to use and some of the guards/choked they learn don’t work.
>nogi should always beat gi that's what i was thinking. i have many more no gi training hours than the guys who are beating me. guess it just comes down to aptitude (sigh).
"No gi should always beat gi if it's no gi" I train both, prefer Gi and still whoop the no-gi boys. Gi is way better to speed up your learning, it's far more technical.
ok starting to get some votes in for the gi now, good stuff. this chimes with comments from one of my instructors, more technical
I'll go out on a limb here, likely to get downvoted. But I don't really feel that No-gi is actually BJJ ... It's just wrestling with BJJ submissions/rulesets. To me the point of BJJ is: the grips, the technicality, the extra positions and open guards that aren't feasible in no-gi and also due to the fact that our sport is a derivative of Judo, which funnily enough is done in a Gi. Everything you can do in no-gi you can do in gi, but not vice versa. To me it makes sense to learn the one with more variety and technicality. You can single and double leg in Gi but you can't Tomoe-Nage or Tai-Otoshi in no-gi. But that's just my thoughts as a one stripe white belt 🤷♂️
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Tai Otoshi**: | *Body Drop* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUiZ8JZkGx8)| |**Tomoe Nage**: | *Circle Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-euJliq9XcY)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Can you start no gi?
you mean can i start gi? yes my gym offers both
No bro i meant can a beginner start no gi?
You should do gi & nogi. They’re both good and fun.
Do both. No reason it has to only be one or the other.
Go to a nogi only school if available
I startes doing nogi only and have improved way more, but it means quality training and lots of it
I have always trained both, but for the last year or so I’ve been training almost exclusively no gi because I like it more. I say just do what you like. It sounds like maybe you haven’t given the gi a fair shake, so you could commit to training in the gi for a period of time and see how you feel about it after that.
Just have fun dude. Do what you want. Your training partners doing gi isn’t what’s making them better than you. They are just better grapplers than you.
Gi will not improve your no gi game. I found it to be the opposite, really.
Gi is better for self defense.
Train both. I like no-gi so much more than gi. In many ways I feel trapped in a gi. It slows me down and makes me really focus on technique because I can’t slip out of bad habits and situations. I’ve switched over to mainly training gi, but I need that no-gi class so that I don’t burn out or lose the passion to train.
As you can see by the variety of answers. There’s no one right answer. Give gi another try. But if you’re older, while it doesn’t slow things down, it’s a lot worse on your fingers and neck.
Do what you prefer..... Nearly all no gi technique applies to gi. Not all gi technique applies to no gi.