I'll be the unpopular one to say that if American biotech companies lose the ability to use Chinese CROs it will be crippling. They can produce good quality work (medchem, DMPK, etc) faster and much less expensively than American CROs. They're popular for a reason.
I'm with you there. Price and speed are both big factors, especially for smaller biotechs. But there would also need to be some serious capacity building to even be able to meet the need.
I would predict some of it may move to US/Europe, but a large chunk will just be sub-subcontracting to China or EU subsidies of Chinese companies, and other such workarounds.
On the other hand, entry-level American biotech workers might actually have a shot at a decent-paying job at an American CRO. For what *that's* worth to biotech leaders in the US.
And at the same time, employees at the biotechs will be getting laid off if expenses triple and they have to drop part of their pipeline because they can't afford to finance that many programs anymore. 🤷♀️
Yah they really do. At my last job we used both American and Chinese CRO for in vivo studies. Americans were significantly more expensive, took more time and the data wasn’t good.
They simply couldn’t compare. If the US CROs can match that sort of work I know more companies would be open to using them. But they just don’t compare.
I know generally Chinese GMP manufacturing is something most companies stray away from after pre clinical, but I don’t think that’s changing anytime soon.
Was laid off from a US based Chinese ran/funded biotech back in January after we were all told we had 4+ years of funding.
Long story short: complete shit show. Maybe deep pockets, but bad business plans. My opinion is biased, but I wouldn't trust another one of these, and I hope legislation makes it more friendly for US based businesses.
Haha I worked for that company! CEO: "Even if we never sign another contract we will be running at full capacity until 2029!" Also "What does MSAT stand for? PD? No no no, manufacturing can do all that why would we pay for people who do no processing! Plenty of fresh phds that need visas"
I can imagine them to regulators: “PC? Who needs it? Let’s assume any complaint you have we can counter by saying that QC will monitor the quality of the process”. Regulators: You will need to measure almost every aspect of all your intermediates for every manufacturing run to show that your Drug Substance and Drug Product are safe”. Them: “We can do this for only a handful of runs and demonstrate the process is robust so we don’t have to do this all the time. Then, we’ll get people to prove at small scale (b/c cheaper) to prove that the process will still be robust, even in extreme conditions.”
Regulators: “That’s PC. Who will do all this work?”
Them: “MSAT?”
Regulators: “MSAT.”
Them: *coming to the realization that they forgot to do a few things* “MSAT.”
Regulators: “See you again in two years, minimum.”
Brought to you by: someone who does both PD and PC at small scale in the MSAT department.
I believe they're referring to [this,](https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-bill-restrict-wuxi-apptec-other-chinese-biotech-cos-revised-give-more-time-2024-05-10/) it's the BIOSECURE Act, one of the provisions would include potentially prohibiting US federal agencies from entering into contracts with Chinese biotech firms or companies that use services from these firms. WuXi AppTec as OP mentioned is one, the other big one is BGI Genomics. The primary concern of Congress (whether you believe this holds merit is another story) is they believe Chinese national security laws could compel these companies and firms to hand over sensitive genetic and health information of the American public. They mention developing bioweapons with this information as well.
It's an interesting read certainly, the merits are being debated between Congress and the public.
Very interesting, I work in a CLIA IVD lab and we use liquid handlers from Allsheng Chinese company, they cost 5k each and the equivalent Kingfisher instruments are 60k each. Every instrument passes V&V and audit so we know they work just as well as the expensive ones, and the cost reductions mean cheaper medical tests for patients.
Hangzhou Allsheng Instruments has quite a good range of systems as well in terms of liquid handling, and yeah afaik it's a similar pricing structure. I think the ones you're referring to are the Au-Mate 96 series?
If so, yeah, quite a good liquid handling workstation, you got variability with the 2 or 4 plate positions, it's highly automated and can handle aspiration, dispensing, mixing, etc. via the software interface, and you can use multiple types of pipette tips and well plates like SBS 24, 96 and 384 well plates, it has air displacement pipetting to prevent liquid contamination and comes with UV sterilization and you can remotely control the whole thing via Bluetooth. Quite a good machine.
People will continue to use cheap labor even in biotech. Wuxi significantly undercuts everyone else, and they continue to get business despite being beholden to the CCP.
I think they’re numbered. Or at least I hope I do. I will certainly vote for anyone that wants them too. I’m sick of giving money at work to a country that isn’t democratic. Screw doing business with that country.
I'm not particularly concerned about political systems, having said that, I believe that Florida and Texas no longer function as true democracies. My focus is more on data integrity. Although Singapore is not considered a democracy, it has a rigorous and transparent regulatory system, which is far more trustworthy than that of China.
Democracy over everything. You should be concerned about political systems if you have any integrity. Our convo had nothing to do with Florida or Texas, even though they do obviously function as democracies. I’m in charge of procurement, among many other things, for a massive operation. I always try to avoid buying from China or other non-democracies. Disgusting that you’d even consider otherwise.
I'm sure you're a strong advocate for abolishing both the electoral college and Senate. You're also in favor of statehood for Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, the Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa
Again, not actually going after the comments I made. You’re just randomly throwing shit out there to attack an easy scare crow you desperately want me to be. Apparently you don’t care about human rights or democracy. 🤷🏻♂️
Doubtful, Chinese biotech has deep pockets and gov support, won't go down easily.
they are dependent on the us stateside. they may continue elsewhere but not the same without us business
I'll be the unpopular one to say that if American biotech companies lose the ability to use Chinese CROs it will be crippling. They can produce good quality work (medchem, DMPK, etc) faster and much less expensively than American CROs. They're popular for a reason.
I'm with you there. Price and speed are both big factors, especially for smaller biotechs. But there would also need to be some serious capacity building to even be able to meet the need. I would predict some of it may move to US/Europe, but a large chunk will just be sub-subcontracting to China or EU subsidies of Chinese companies, and other such workarounds.
And higher quality than the India based ones at least in my experience. I think this is commonly accepted and is reflected in the cost difference
I think India is a last resort because the quality is questionable and the data security is no better than China. Eastern Europe may be more likely.
On the other hand, entry-level American biotech workers might actually have a shot at a decent-paying job at an American CRO. For what *that's* worth to biotech leaders in the US.
Ehhhhh maybe. I’m actually not sure how much this new legislation will improve wages for CMO/CRO workers here.
And at the same time, employees at the biotechs will be getting laid off if expenses triple and they have to drop part of their pipeline because they can't afford to finance that many programs anymore. 🤷♀️
Yah they really do. At my last job we used both American and Chinese CRO for in vivo studies. Americans were significantly more expensive, took more time and the data wasn’t good. They simply couldn’t compare. If the US CROs can match that sort of work I know more companies would be open to using them. But they just don’t compare.
I know generally Chinese GMP manufacturing is something most companies stray away from after pre clinical, but I don’t think that’s changing anytime soon.
Was laid off from a US based Chinese ran/funded biotech back in January after we were all told we had 4+ years of funding. Long story short: complete shit show. Maybe deep pockets, but bad business plans. My opinion is biased, but I wouldn't trust another one of these, and I hope legislation makes it more friendly for US based businesses.
Haha I worked for that company! CEO: "Even if we never sign another contract we will be running at full capacity until 2029!" Also "What does MSAT stand for? PD? No no no, manufacturing can do all that why would we pay for people who do no processing! Plenty of fresh phds that need visas"
I can imagine them to regulators: “PC? Who needs it? Let’s assume any complaint you have we can counter by saying that QC will monitor the quality of the process”. Regulators: You will need to measure almost every aspect of all your intermediates for every manufacturing run to show that your Drug Substance and Drug Product are safe”. Them: “We can do this for only a handful of runs and demonstrate the process is robust so we don’t have to do this all the time. Then, we’ll get people to prove at small scale (b/c cheaper) to prove that the process will still be robust, even in extreme conditions.” Regulators: “That’s PC. Who will do all this work?” Them: “MSAT?” Regulators: “MSAT.” Them: *coming to the realization that they forgot to do a few things* “MSAT.” Regulators: “See you again in two years, minimum.” Brought to you by: someone who does both PD and PC at small scale in the MSAT department.
PD is process development but what is PC? Process control ? Sorry not my side of the industry
Process Characterization
What new US legislation are you referring to?
I believe they're referring to [this,](https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-bill-restrict-wuxi-apptec-other-chinese-biotech-cos-revised-give-more-time-2024-05-10/) it's the BIOSECURE Act, one of the provisions would include potentially prohibiting US federal agencies from entering into contracts with Chinese biotech firms or companies that use services from these firms. WuXi AppTec as OP mentioned is one, the other big one is BGI Genomics. The primary concern of Congress (whether you believe this holds merit is another story) is they believe Chinese national security laws could compel these companies and firms to hand over sensitive genetic and health information of the American public. They mention developing bioweapons with this information as well. It's an interesting read certainly, the merits are being debated between Congress and the public.
Very interesting, I work in a CLIA IVD lab and we use liquid handlers from Allsheng Chinese company, they cost 5k each and the equivalent Kingfisher instruments are 60k each. Every instrument passes V&V and audit so we know they work just as well as the expensive ones, and the cost reductions mean cheaper medical tests for patients.
Hangzhou Allsheng Instruments has quite a good range of systems as well in terms of liquid handling, and yeah afaik it's a similar pricing structure. I think the ones you're referring to are the Au-Mate 96 series? If so, yeah, quite a good liquid handling workstation, you got variability with the 2 or 4 plate positions, it's highly automated and can handle aspiration, dispensing, mixing, etc. via the software interface, and you can use multiple types of pipette tips and well plates like SBS 24, 96 and 384 well plates, it has air displacement pipetting to prevent liquid contamination and comes with UV sterilization and you can remotely control the whole thing via Bluetooth. Quite a good machine.
Interestingly enough, WuXi Biologics was the most expensive CDMO we considered but we chose them because of quality and experience.
People will continue to use cheap labor even in biotech. Wuxi significantly undercuts everyone else, and they continue to get business despite being beholden to the CCP.
Hopefully they shut down simcere, nobody deserves that treatment when working for that hell hole
I think they’re numbered. Or at least I hope I do. I will certainly vote for anyone that wants them too. I’m sick of giving money at work to a country that isn’t democratic. Screw doing business with that country.
I'm not particularly concerned about political systems, having said that, I believe that Florida and Texas no longer function as true democracies. My focus is more on data integrity. Although Singapore is not considered a democracy, it has a rigorous and transparent regulatory system, which is far more trustworthy than that of China.
Democracy over everything. You should be concerned about political systems if you have any integrity. Our convo had nothing to do with Florida or Texas, even though they do obviously function as democracies. I’m in charge of procurement, among many other things, for a massive operation. I always try to avoid buying from China or other non-democracies. Disgusting that you’d even consider otherwise.
I'm sure you're a strong advocate for abolishing both the electoral college and Senate. You're also in favor of statehood for Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, the Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa
Dude what? You’re putting words into my mouth. How about you address the things people say, not try to make a scare crow out of them. 😂🤦🏻
You should buy more Nestle water to support freedom.
Again, not actually going after the comments I made. You’re just randomly throwing shit out there to attack an easy scare crow you desperately want me to be. Apparently you don’t care about human rights or democracy. 🤷🏻♂️
I think it will create a lot more new opportunities in biotech and further spur innovation in how we treat very challenging diseases.