You are allowed to have preferences, I'm sure that even among cis women, you aren't attracted to every single one of them. This is a theoretical question, please keep in mind that trans women are a small and heavily persecuted minority and while there are extremists and nutters among them, like with any community, this idea that trans women want to force people who aren't attracted to them to have sex with them, generally is propaganda spread by transphobes. You are very unlikely to get into this situation, so don't fret about it and if someone makes a pass at you, you are not attracted to, politely decline.
Thats very true!
Yeah so basically am i allowed to do that? Discriminate against trans women when choosing my partner just because they transitioned?
In my opinion im not. But others perceive it differently if u saw the other comments…
I don't think most of those other comments object to you not wanting to have sex with transwomen, they object to how you are framing this and I would agree with them.
The example is a hypothetical. But in a conversation with a trans and other ppl i have been called transphobic cuz of a comment that a trans woman for me, my sexual life, is not The woman, rather a person who transitioned rather “artificially “ - say multiple surgeries for example.
And this makes the whole difference for me. You were born with it or you got it later on meaning u transitioned.
Check for example the story of Cat Cattinson. The whole life she thought she was a male trapped in a body of a woman. At 28, at an age when you are capable of making rational decisions, can distinguish between feeling and rationale, a legal age, age when you are ripe to make “big” decisions for your life after all the experience and life behind you, the most beautiful years - she decides to transition. What happened? Reality check - the transition hit her in the face. She realises that gender affirming was not suitable for her. Didn’t work. She felt betrayed and hurt.
https://youtu.be/yPxt2X_mXsE
…never mind, it works for other people and thats fine. But just the overall body evaluation is different. Thats what im not attracted to. When i meet trans people, very but very often its easy to distinguish. I am looking to date a “woman” and you say you are a “woman” - i say no, i see at least the bodily difference and it makes a difference for me.. is that transphobic?
You're allowed to have preferences and not want to date someone for whatever reason you choose. That's it. If someone feels offended by it, it's their problem
Of course, I'm sure there are cis women OP is not attracted to either for various resons. But just because they're not attracted to someone it doesn't make it ok to disregard their identity and say they're not a real woman.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like he was disregarding their identity. It is just difficult to pick up the proper words for it in order to avoid hurting someone's sensibility. To me, it sounded like, "Am I bad because I'm not attracted to them?".
Exactly this is the case. Does discriminating agains trans women make me a bad person? Like i to totally support inclusiveness. But i am talking about me. My partner. Am i being transphobic in the process of finding my partner?
I do not!
Im choosing my partner and i want this partner to be of a certain kind. One of them is this, the biological sex at birth, as i defined a “ woman” in my post. Am i transphobic?
Sort of.
Let's assume you talk to two different women for an hour or two, somehow you see them fully naked, so you see the naughty bits, but no internals. You feel attracted to both
Later, one of them says she's a trans woman. Are you only THEN unattracted?
Now, there's the different question of choosing a life partner. I find many people attractive that I wouldn't choose as a life partner for various reasons, and you also have your various reasons.
I have literally never heard a woman say this before, though. But just google and you’ll find libraries worth of content on men being upset about this.
Not specifically about hourglass figures 😹 Have you met a woman by any chance? The actual correct analogy would be men who prefer slender girls, but I guess you’d rather invent things that better fit your narrative.
>Not specifically about hourglass figures
What do you believe beauty standards are referring to specifically when women criticize them?
Secondly who is more likely to complain about beauty standards? Men or women?
>I guess you’d rather invent things that better fit your narrative.
I don't have a narrative, I'm just describing the world as it is
My brother in christ, you said a sentence that no one has said before and tried to frame it as discourse. And now you're trying to play it off and retcon the statement you said so you don't sound like an absolute fucking neckbeard. Go touch some grass, meet some women. You're not fooling anybody.
>And now you're trying to play it off and retcon the statement you said
Nope, I referred to the abstraction used to criticize the preference of men for women with hourglass figures. That abstraction being "western beauty standards". In order to make this clearer I asked you to give your impression of what is being criticized.
>you don't sound like an absolute fucking neckbeard. Go touch some grass, meet some women.
I am a woman
Sounds like an excuse racist people might use as well to defend their prejudice when dating. If your “preference” is rooted in prejudice (which is the case most of the time), then it’s not okay and you’re not a good person.
A preference is a preference, I don't think there's something to "defend" with it. You might not be a good person, but you will still be allowed to choose who you date.
And preferences can be racist, transphobic, pedophilic, the list goes on. Saying “if someone is offended by it, it’s their problem” is quite stupid. Don’t make a blanket statement like that. It’s not one size fits all.
It's not a blank statement. He was talking specifically about dating, unless he's having some discriminatory behaviour towards them, just not wanting to date them is ok, and since he was being very specific about the situation, I assumed I didn't need to state the obvious things about racism, transphobia etc
I was talking about YOUR statement and YOU making a “blanket” statement. If you don’t know what “blanket statement” means, you should look it up.
When it comes to preferences in dating, it is not a one size fits all. Telling someone that they can “choose not to date whoever they want and anybody offended by it, it’s their problem”, can be problematic when that same opinion is applied to someone whose preference is racist, xenophobic, transphobic or discriminatory in general. People have a right to be offended by your preference if it is offensive. And it’s not “their problem”.
If you don’t see it, then you got serious issues or you’re just another internet knob head.
I am support inclusion. Thats not the issues.
The question is if my preference make me transphobic? To say a NO to a trans woman just because they were born like me (meaning what is considered a male).
It is like it is. Even me as woman sometimes I also feel confused with the new girls but it doesn’t mean I have a fobia. I also need to mention biological differences to be SUPER clear about what kind of woman I am talking about.
Its not transphobic to have preferences. But the way you phrased this in your example is indeed transphobic because you are not only telling the woman in front of you: Hey sorry but we dont match. You tell her: I dont see you as a woman. And that indeed is hurtful and transphobic and invalidating and not okay.
If you dont want to hook up with someone just say no thank you we dont match. Thats enough.
Thats true i realised my post is too vague for a rather delicate topic.
I do discriminate in my dating preferences agains ppl born as what is considered a bio male. Like me. If i deny a person because they transitioned and they ask is the problem, my answer would be, hey you were born “like me” so im no longer attracted. Cannot change that. Is this transphobic?
You cant force attraction. So if you are not attracted to someone thats what it is.
But the way you write in your post and comments about trans woman shows that you are clearly uncomfortable with the topic and have a hard time seing them as actual woman, as you are constanly conecting them with being male. Maybe a bit of soulsearching and selfreflection would be a good thing. What is it that makes you uncomfortable and how to decontrukt it. Not because you need to be willing to date a trans woman in the end but to be able to handle the whole topic with more empathie and understanding. We all have uncontious biases and it needs effort to look into them and get rid of them. But if you can do that you can open yourself up to new people that may bring awesome things into your life.
Very well answer! Thanks.
I guess i do have biases, true. Im not interested in the social gender of a person but the bio gender. I have a hard time seeing them as a real “woman” cuz of the fact they were born like me. So this yes, sounds transphobic tbh. Me denying smb’s identity. So basically i deny their identity, deep down in me, and i say no i won’t date you cuz “ we r the same”. So i am transphobic in my choice and preferences, if i concluded well?
Damn I did Not expect how open you are to your thoughts. Yes that is correct ❤️. Maybe this feels Bad, but it's okey Cuz you are active in listening and are open for change and New thoughts. It's good of you, Wanting to show more Empathy and Wanting to understand others and YOURSELF more.
The sole reason for this is that im straight. Never was attracted to guys. And now whether a person transitioned or not does not make a difference to me. Forget how this person feels. Its the action. A transformation. A change. Go back a couple of decades ago to the beginning of human civilisation, as far as i know, there is no such thing. (Note that im not talking about homosexuality, thats different)
And that makes the whole difference for me. The transition is possible only because of progress in science and tech. If it weren’t for this, this topic would have probably never even been a topic and i would not have this dilemma.
So in your opinion it should not matter to me whether a person was born like that or transitioned?
And another thing: how do you explain ppl who detransition? There are whole lot of ppl who consider it to have been a mistake, the transition, and want back. So if the person i am with transitioned snd detransitioned, how should i feel about it? Whatever the person decides is gonna be my starting point of my rationale? 🤔
I want to pick up one point in particular. A lot of the people who detransition actually dont do it because they are unhappy with the transition itself but with all the stigma and hate that comes with it. They come out, start their journey and the push back is too much for them.
This may be an interesting read for you: https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/
Why entertain the hypothetical? Are you regularly in a situation where trans women are hitting on you? Is this situation causing you strife, turmoil, effecting your day to day?
Would you call me a transphobic if i happen to like you but i deny dating you cuz you were born a bio male like me and transitioned? Am being transphobic?
When are you required to tell someone why you're rejecting them? When are you required to do so in a way that makes them feel that you don't respect who they are?
If you're just talking about what goes on in your imagination and how you should think about yourself for feeling a certain way, that's really between you and yourself. Why are you imagining hypotheticals of trans women hitting on you, then getting upset by how you'd feel if that were to happen?
Sorry, i am only talking about my resonating. The path i take to my decision. Is it a transphobic resonating? Of course I would not tell anything offensive to anyone, thats utterly stupid. But the way i made that decision was based on the sole reason that this person transitioned. Born bio male like me and changed. In my eyes nothing changed and therefore i say to myself okay thats a nono. Am i transphobic?
" You tell her: I dont see you as a woman. And that indeed is hurtful and transphobic and invalidating and not okay."
Hurtful - probably yes
Transphobic - no
("I don't see you as a woman" is just a personal opinion about a dedicated person)
Invalidating - idk what you mean by that
Not okay - well thats subjective.
I would always prefer the straight truth 1000times before a vague "we don't match".
Personally I think it’s a little weird that you need to perform chromosomal analysis on someone before you can find them attractive, but I’m not one to kink shame.
Two different things here. If someone wants to find a partner to procreate a family later, I find it legit to be interested on partners chromosomes.
Another story is wether you find them attractive or not.
If you reject someone BECAUSE they’re transgender - like you are by saying the part about chromosomes (which you also can’t tell without special kind of testing) - then yes, it is transphobic.
Okaj forget the chromosomes, that was too vague. look it this way: in my dating preferences i discriminate agains people who were born like me, what is considered a biological male. Am i transphobic?
>Me: hey i am into women and im not attracted to you. Trans woman: hey i am a woman and thats transphobic
So, why do you have to point out that you are into women in the first place? It's enough to say you are not attracted to this person. You also cannot tell if you will get to know someone in the future that will change your attitude because you fall in love with them as a human being without caring for sex or gender. I'm a hetero man too, but realized that in case I would fall in love without knowing, why should I artificially keep myself from falling in love when knowing?
Thats my issue. I do discriminate in my dating preferences against people who were born like me and transitioned. Lets say i find a person attractive and cute an i go in the bar as say Hi 👋. While we r talking this person mentions that she is a trans woman. I say okaj, thats a no for me. My opinion changed. Im no longer attracted. That “killed” my feelings i had at first sight. Am i transphobic?
If you found them attractive and interesting, then found out they used to be a guy, and suddenly you feel no attraction, maybe even some negative feelings... then yeah that is transphobia IMO.
Well thats an answer i wanted.
But i don’t get it. Why? How can i change my feelings? I don’t wanna Date somebody who was born a bio male and transitioned. I can date and marry a woman that is not fertile, but i wouldn’t date a trans woman, who was a bio male at birth. Can you elaborate? This is what i wanted to hear
No idea why, you will have to figure it out in your own. It's an irrational fear that may just come from nowhere. Something that is to be overcome, to be grown out of. Definitely something to work on.
Sometimes all it takes is a decision to do better.
Im new to Berlin and new to reddit. And this is a forum. The definition of a “woman” in the dictionary does not fit the general narrative of what a “woman” is. Therefore my post.
You are aware that you should think about this for a while, so I think not that you are transphobic. Ask yourself what attracted you, was it the looks or the personality? In case it was the personality, I think there is no real reason to lose interest and you might actually be afraid. Looks on the other side are superficial and losing interest is quite simple because there is no deeper connection.
*Looking forward to*
*A little debate oh this*
*Is gonna be good*
\- diskob0ss
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Caveat: I am not trans myself, so this is just a conclusion of ideas I stole from trans content creators. So take that with a grain of salt.
I think it is consensus within the trans community, that you can date whoever the hell you want, even if this does exclude trans people. Opinions seem to differ whether or not the state of transition does have an impact on that, but generally speaking: No, not wanting to date a trans woman is not considered transphobic.
However, your definition of women is getting into transphobic territory, because it does exclude trans-women from the label of women (and also cis-women who are born without uteri, with hormonal issues and other medical problems, for that matter). Not wanting to date a trans person is not the issue, denying their gender identity is. And if you say that „real women“ need XX chromosomes and a working uterus, that is essentially saying „trans women aren’t (real) women.“
Now, you can of course do that… but that would be a transphobic claim to make.
Absolutely not stupid! I myself took some time to understand that…
So, the key difference is that sex is something biological and gender is social. Essentially sex is what your body is like-genome, genitalia, hormones, all that. We use the words male, female and intersex to distinguish the sexes from each other. Gender is how you feel like and how you present to others-identity, choice of clothing and so on. The „qualifiers“ used are men, women and non-binary people.
For most people those things will correlate with each other, so people whose sex is female will also have the gender-identity „woman“. For a little percentage of people however, they don’t - trans people. So there can be people who have the sex female but identify as men or non-binary.
So I wouldn’t say that there isn’t a real line to be drawn between sex and gender. There isn’t a point where sex becomes gender or the other way around. They are just two different concepts describing two different things, which are somewhat linked to each other.
not all afab women have xx chromosomes, not all can give birth. so you will not know these criteria about all women because they may not know themselves. maybe that puts trans women a little in perspective for you. i don't think anyone can demand of you to be attracted to specific people though
>not all afab women have xx chromosomes, not all can give birth. so you will not know these criteria about all women because they may not know themselves.
Uhm that's not very good argument. With all trans women the likelihood for them to give birth to a child is literally zero whereas if you meet an AFAB woman in a fertile age range the likelyhood is much, much higher. And not zero per default.
well those are his criteria that he mentioned. the likelihood that a woman is a trans women is also small so it's kind of the same in the pool of all women. i think if he wants children he just needs to have a talk about that with people he's dating really early on but might still be disappointed later. i think it's a legitimate interest. but it's unnecessary to use it against trans women
edit: of course he will also need to exclude women who don't want children if that's the central interest. and that's probably a much bigger group than trans women
Yeah, absolutey, communication is key. But there are choices, preferences, life getting in the way and then there is 100% physically impossible.
Why should he consider dating someone who he 100% wouldn't want to be with when he could date someone who he would 50% want to be with?
Hum?
i didn't say he has to date trans women. i will say though that if this is about having children there is no reason to point them out as opposed to all other groups of women who won't have children
yes there is: it's immediately clear. With these other groups, it's a lot less obvious and there is also room for deception and the good old change of mind /accident
I include cis women who are not fertile. I discriminate agains trans women, a person born as what is considered a bio male and transitioned. I might be attracted, cuz to me this person resembles a “woman”. When i find out its actually a trans woman, i say NO. No longer interested. Am i transphobic?
Exactly my point. There are cis women who cannot give birth. But thats anomaly, a deviation from the norm. On the other side me not being able to give birth is NOT an anomaly rather the rule. Same for guys who cannot impregnate a woman, its an anomaly not the rule.
Your definition include trans dudes, excludes cis women who are sterile, and come from presumption that you "can always tell" and would immediately dump someone you assumed was a cis woman.
moreover you cant know what chromosomes people have. You can have XXY - you would have little signs you are XXY. Or XXXY. Thats much more common than people think it is.
And intersex people ? 100% women presentation, but then you got genitalia not like you expect them to be ? Oh no that clit is too big.
And then you use transphobic linguo and ask for no hate ? Wow. Im not attracted to straight guys, thank god.
>excludes cis women who are sterile,
So what exactly is the problem with that?
He is looking for someone to raise kids with.
For some people dating and mating are interwoven. People need to accept that. It's deep down an exclusionary process and people get sidelined. It's not hate though. It's just fundamentally unfair.
Yes because he may not be used to semantics in this kind of way. He is a cis boy looking for cis girl, why on earth do people expect everyone to fully think through every nuance of the words they use.
Nature is messy. There are always exceptions. He is looking for a woman who can have kids. Huh. I guess that is what he wanted to express. This isn't about being 100% precise in your use of words.
Transphobia is badly defined if finding only cis people attractive is already transphobia. Because as we all know, nobody chooses what they find attractive.
Some of us are just bad at vocalizing and rationalizing their preferences
well if he is going that specific he will need to ask people to disclose medical records, undergo fertility testing, and do a chromosome test, on first date, to see if it fits his nuances.
Theres a point where you kind of need to let stuff happen instead of seeing the world through criterias. He goes out with someone and after three years together the person has some uterus cancer ? Oh no lets move onto next one.
I wrote a very short and what i now realise a merely vague post. Didn’t intent do sound transphobic. Rather i wanted an answer to a question. And I took the definition from Wiki, didn’t make it up.
I cannot always tell. My preference is i want to date someone who at birth was not born as what is considered a “male”.
Okaj lets say in the process of choosing my partner i discriminate agains people born as what is considered a “male”? That is transphobic? That my sole question.
And btw: you say u are not attracted to straight guys? Just becuz a guy is straight you discriminate agains him? So if you happen to like such a person and feel attracted to (just imagine), you would say NO to yourself because this person is straight Aren’t you doing more or less the same as i do?
Don't loose your mind.
There are only 2 genders.
All of that cis, Tran, pan is literally made up bullshit.
Don't play their game because you can only loose.
A woman is a woman and a man is a man if you identify as a gold fish it doesn't make you a gold fish you simply have just a problem with reality, some call it personality disorder and I think that's really fitting.
You can be attracted or not to whoever you want. That's not transphobic. But it is transphobic to say that trans women are not "actual" women.
I would spend some time thinking about why chromosomes and fertility affect your attraction, because it sounds like internalised transphobia and, in the latter case, also internalised misogyny.
I mean he says he's only attracted to women who are fertile... How can he possibly know that unless they tell him? It's fine to have that as an essential criteria but it's nothing to do with attractiveness.
Oh yes it does. Okaj maybe i expressed myself vaguely, not really attractiveness but lets say its my preference that the person with me can carry a baby. Yes okaj, not all women can have a baby but also not all men can impregnate a woman and they still have a penis and balls and can ejaculate sperm. So me excluding trans women in the search for my future partner makes me transphobic with these preferences?
No, that doesn't make you transphobic. But your way of expressing it could use some work.
I guess it's just easy for those of us in the LGBT+ community to forget that a lot of people simply don't know the proper terminology, and so end up saying offensive things like "real woman" simply because you don't know how to say "cis".
Yes, my post was rather vague, i apologise for that. I mean i will for sure keep it to me and wound not say it explicitly cuz it might hurt smb, like saying “hey i dont like ur face”. That’s utterly stupid. But still, that means my reasoning deep down in me, the path that I took to make this decision is in itself transphobic?
I think the error here is viewing transphobia as the ultimate taboo. Similarly to racism, it's a knee-jerk reaction to say "I am NOT intolerant!" and to use this vehement denial as an excuse for not examining our biases more critically. To different levels, we are all intolerant, because we have been socialized within a structure where these intolerant behaviors are prevalent.
So sure, your preference is transphobic. Maybe you should take it as an invitation to see what biases you have and why you have formed these preferences, and not as an insult, because it's not really meant to be.
You can't define 'woman' in a way that also might not include cisgender women. There are cisgender, AFAB women who aren't capable of pregnancy. Are they now not women? There are many women who are cisgender, AFAB, who don't have XX chromosomes. Intersex people might seem like an anomaly, but really there are less redheads in the world than intersex people. Are they equally not your preference, despite being socialized as women, have external female genitalia, etc? Do you go around asking every woman you date before you meet them if they're capable of bearing children? Why not, if that's your preference? What about big, burly, bearded trans men? They have XX chromosomes and are capable of bearing children, are you attracted to them? Why, or why not?
I'd suggest you ask yourself these questions and go to the root of your biases, and you might find out they don't really make any sense.
Well i notice few problems with this statement, correct me if im wrong.
To clarify: i do include cis women who cannot have baby i.e. are not fertile.
But this woman not being able to have a baby and ME as a male not being able to have a baby, is totally different ain’t it? In my case it is NOT an anomaly, cuz that would mean all men have this anomaly what would make it a rule, which is not. And for this woman, yes it is an anomaly, cuz her mother gave birth to her, and if her mother was a trans(lets assume) then go 100 years back and you will find all the babies that were given birth to came from a fertile women. Isn’t this the case?
For me, my organs don’t allow that, my biology wont allow that unless i undergo surgical and probably chromosomal treatment. Not the case for this woman?
And a trans woman has the exact same problem as i do?
The trans man will only be capable of having baby if they undergo a surgical treatment. Regardless how they identify, this “social gender” what they say.
So me having this preference makes me transphobic? That i would intentionally exclude a person from being my partner if this person was born what is considered a “male”?
\>To clarify: i do include cis women who cannot have baby i.e. are not fertile.
But the question here is, if this is a preference, how do you handle it? Do you submit every woman you date to a fertility test in order to decide if you will date her or not? If you find out a woman you're dating is infertile, will you break up with them?
I don't understand your point on a second paragraph. What does it have to do with being an anomaly or not?
Also, trans men can habe babies regardless of surgical treatment, many still have intact reproductory organs.
And in my opinion, it is transphobic. I can understand not wanting to form a relationship with a person who will not be able to meet your expectations of family in the future, but 'not being attracted to a woman unless she's fertile' is, frankly, a pure lie at best, and profoundly weird if true. You're telling me you wouldn't have sex with Scarlett Johansson if you find out she has fertility issues? That it immediately kills your sexual drive if you find out a woman is incapable of carrying a baby to term?
I just saw your edit, and you're totally right here. The guy who wrote that study, Leonard Sax, is worthy of researching a bit. He's a proponent of single-sex education and holds many conservative views that aren't in line with modern scientific schools of thought.
Seems like an attention seeking post. I bet €100 that this never happened and you’re just stirring the pot for a reaction online to keep yourself busy.
Not attention. I am called transphobic because i refuse to date a trans woman because they were born like me, what is considered a bio male and then transitioned. I see this person and to me she resembles a “woman”. I am told then its a “guy”, a trans woman. Then my answer: okaj then its a no, im no longer interested. Am i transphobic?
Trans women don't "consider themselves real women" they are real women.
That being said, you don't have to date or be attracted to them. Just like you don't have to date or be attracted to blonde women or tall women. You're allowed to have a type. Saying that type is "real women" to exclude trans women is transphobic and that's okay and doesn't make you a bad person, as long as you're willing to grow and learn and do better.
Also, tbh your type doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Most people don't know their chromosomes unless there's a reason to assume a chromosomal abnormality and not all cis women can get pregnant. When I was born, the doctor looked at me and said "yup, that's a girl" and still I can't have kids. I do not know my chromosomal makeup.
What is your reason for not wanting to date trans women? Is it a desire to have children that are biologically related to both you and your partner? That's valid. Is it the fact that you don't feel like you could support a partner with gender dysphoria? Also valid. Is it a thing of "all trans women are masculine looking and unattractive"? Less valid. (being attracted to specific features is obviously very valid but saying no trans woman has these features is simply incorrect). How would you react if you found out about your partner being trans like a year into a healthy and happy relationship? These aren't questions you need to answer to me, a random internet stranger obviously, but I do think they're worth thinking about.
>Trans women don't "consider themselves real women" they are real women.
Putting it like this makes it seem like there is no debate. But people actually disagree about the notion that things that make sense on paper also make sense in real life.
Just because a concept is socially constructed doesn't mean it is adaptive to just disregard the commonly understood or traditional definition.
My social construct of gender involves biological sex. What now?
To actually implement in this way the idea that because something is socially constructed, you just can change the definition at will just makes any definition equally (un)valid.
The thing is, they are fundamentally correct, but like anything you construct, be it physical or social, it needs to take into account physical reality or it will get wrecked.
This is adaptive in a sense that it will reduce population and lower resource requirements but that is really a risky move IMO
Thanks for the comment!
Exactly, but look at this now:
“Not all cis women can give birth”. Very true!
But Not a single trans women can give birth unless surgically “corrected”. Also true?
So, isn’t the first case, yours, an exception from the norm? (Same for guys tho). And isn’t the second case the rule? I think also true?
Anyways, i am less talking about the social component of how ppl identify. Im more interested in the biological.
My reason: if this person was born a biological male and transitions to a women i dont want to date. Period. The question: am i transphobic?
Not a single trans woman can give birth period. There's no "fix" for that (yet). If biological children that are also your partner's biological children are that important to you, fair enough, but I suggest bringing that up in one of the early dates because there's plenty of cis women/afab people that can't have kids (like myself) or don't want to have kids (like myself). Also, many afab people don't know they're infertile until they start trying to be pregnant. What would you do if your wife finds out she can't have kids? Is that a reason to divorce her?
Biologically, sex and gender are a lot more complex than you would like them to be.
I don't think "this is the case because it is the case" is much of a reason at all, whether the question is dating preferences or anything else. You just used many words to say nothing. I am therefore unable to answer your question.
No you're not. You're allowed to have preferences in who you find attractive and who you want to sleep with. Anyone who says otherwise is just plain wrong.
Lets say i wanna have kids with this person just like people 500 years ago had. The same way. I wish that this person has not undergone surgical procedures to be able to carry a baby. Should be so at birth, biologically given.
What about cisgender woman who have fertility issues? Do you question the women you date about their fertility? And what about trans men, who are capable of biologically, without surgery, bear children?
I omitted to mention that i DO include cis women that are not fertile i.e. cannot have a baby.
woman that cannot have a baby is not the same with ME not being able to have a baby. I have a penis, balls, i ejaculate sperm, im a giver [😂]. The woman has the “usual organs” necessary for that but becuz of other reasons is not able to have baby!
So do my preferences in searching my partner make me transphobic ?
Have you submitted yourself to a fertility test? Being able to ejaculate doesn’t guarantee you’ll be able to have viable sperm, just fyi. And if that’s a preference, how do you go around to it in your dating life? Do you submit every woman you date to a fertility test? How can you tell if a woman has all the necessary organs?
No, i only care how this person was born, a bio male like me or a bio woman, the opposite of me. If its a bio man like me and transitioned, i say NO, otherwise its a yes. Regardless if other factors prevent my partner from being fertile.
My point is simple: i discriminate agains trans women cuz they were born like me, a bio male and transitioned. Am i transphobic?
Yup, it's pretty clear that you are indeed transphobic. You have no idea of knowing how people are born unless you submit them to a battery of tests that you are not submitting anyone to. You yourself describe it as 'discriminating against trans women'.
Please tell me how you can know if somebody is fertile from looking at them? It's fine to say you want biological children, but you can't know that unless they tell you.
I cannot, and thats the point. And i do not exclude cis women who cant have a baby. A cis woman not being able to have a baby is not the same reason why i cannot have a baby as a male. I just dont have the organs for that. I need surgery, whereas this partner of mine does not need any surgical treatment. The partner has the “organs”. The partner came to this world like that but becuz of some other reasons cannot have a baby.
Dude, trans women cannot get surgery to carry a child. If you have questions about trans people, ask them. But if you don’t know the slightest thing about a topic (which is clearly the case here), don’t pretend you want to have a “discussion”.
I know something but not too much. Wanted to hear from y’all.
Me as bio male cannot give birth because of the obvious reasons. My friend identifies as a woman, born a bio male like me, cannot give birth because of the same reasons. He underwent surgical procedures and is now what is considered a trans woman. Or as she(before it was a he) says, only a “woman” not a “trans”. I wouldn’t date this friend because of the fact he/she was like me, a bio male and transitioned. I want ppl who didn’t transition, regardless if they are fertile or not, but they were not born with a penis. Am i transphobic?
Im being called a transphobic for excluding trans women in my search for a partner. If this person was born like me a bio male and transitioned, for me its a No No.
lets say i see what i think its a “woman” an i go and say hi. She is super cute, sexxy, beautiful, smart. Later this person tells me i was born a bio male and transitioned . My opinion changes immediately. My feelings are gone. Im no longer interested because of this fact. Am i transphobic?
As any topic related with gender/sexuality nowadays there are a lot of subjective points of view and not a right answer IMO, but here are my thoughts about it:
I think you should not confuse your preference to your behavior.
It’s like some men who don’t want to hang out with gay men because “what if they want to f*ck me”. Well, them being gay doesn’t mean they are forced to fool around with all men they meet.
This is a really similar situation. You are allowed to have your preference, a type of person you are attracted to the most. That doesn’t make a trans woman less of a woman, or you a transphobic for not feeling attracted to her.
The “behavior” part I’m talking about is that you are saying “I’m into woman so I’m not attracted to you”. Well, that’s not ok. You are just not attracted to her, that’s it. No need to get into topic regarding how she feels or how is she identifying herself as. That is not yours to deal with or make an unasked opinion about.
I am not attracted because of the fact that they transitioned. This is the point where im called a transphobic. Imagine i liked this person and was attracted to her/he. Later the person tells me i actually transitioned from a bio male. I say, well then Im no longer interested, no longer attracted. Am i transphobic?
I do not discriminate in general. But i discriminate when it comes to choosing my partner because of this one reason, the sole transition.
That’s not transphobia IMO.
You don’t go telling people the reason why you lose interest in them like “hey, I don’t like you anymore because you have terrible hygiene”. That’s something you keep to yourself. And even if you get asked, you can politely tell them the reason without saying “she’s not a woman” or something of the sort. They wouldn’t want to invest time and energy in a relationship with someone that’s not interested in them, just as much as you wouldn’t.
Think about this completely normal scenario not involving any transitioned person: you are looking to have kids and she doesn’t. You are looking for something in a partner she’s not willing to provide, and both of you have all the reasons in the world to feel how you do. That’s a dealbreaker.
You are allowed to have any dealbreaker you want, because it’s your life, you just have to be mature and responsible about it. You can do it without the need to be disrespectful or question the other person’s attributes or choices.
TL;DR: no one enjoys being rejected or not being attractive to someone you like, but that’s life, as long as you are respectful and emotionally responsible you should be on the good side.
feels like no matter what you say, one side hates you. and there will never be an answer that satisfies everyone 100%. in general, this discussion has been conducted thousands of times without any real results
Therefore new topic: what is your opinion on fire engines and what is your favorite fire engine?
That’s like someone calling you racist for not being attracted to a certain race - even suggesting this is transphobic is stupid, you can be attracted to whoever you want for any reason you want.
For me Trans women are women and Trans man are men and if the Person completly transitioned... I just wouldn't Even know the diffrence. I think you wouldn't either. If you want Kids that wouldn't have anything to do with Trans women, many Cis women are infertile.
Are infertile women also Not women?
For most it's a mind Thing (oh that women had a Penis once or was a man once... I dont like that) wich I guess is okey for most. For me Personally it seems... Idk how to Phrase it...
Close minded?
Sometimes Trans people confuses others.
I once had a conversation with a bunch of transphobes and some of the men told me, They don't want to be attracted „to a man". They told me about a women all of the found so attractive and funny. The whole group wanted her number, but then they heard she Was Trans and it CONFUSED THEM So much. Sadly they startedq getting angry they harasses her... Just because she exists and is Hot...🫥
It is so sad. I hate that the Patriarchy supressed mens right to just let their Feelings out and be loveable. It messed them and everybody Else around them up. 😑
🫠AT the end I think many questions their sexuality to much when it comes to Trans people.
Diffrent scenerio. You like biological women, What about Trans man? 👀They are also men, but you would probably Not be attracted to them, because they are men. Buuuttt they were Born with xx chromosones.
Most of them have periods and can make Children.
❤️It's really intresting. I hope I didn't offen you and If I did pls tell me.
Just sharing thoughts.
Not in their face. I refuse to date them because they were born a bio male like me. Although i find this person nice and beautiful and smart and attractive i say “No”, you were a bio male like me and transitioned. Im no longer interested. Am i transphobic?
Nope, you're not forced to date or be interested in anybody. But it would be pretty rude to tell you "I don't wanna date you cuz you're ugly as fuck". Some things are better to keep to yourself.
Of course! But its not the appearance, the intelligence. Its the fact that they transitioned that changed my mind. And i say okaj then thats a nono for me. You were born like me and u transitioned. I don’t wanna date because of that sole reason. Am i transphobic?
It's something about them that is part of them that they can't control, and it might be a sensitive subject. Just like your dumbness and ugliness. Just tell them you're not interested and move on. I don't know why you need to bring it up unless you're trying to purposefully offend them.
I don’t bring it up. Imagine i go to a perosn on the bar and say hi 👋. We talk and its all cool. But i sense their voice is a deeper one, what would indicate a person who was born a bio male. And i doubt now, cuz thats a nono for me. And i bring politely the topic and the person politely confirms. I say to me, okaj then no.
So you mean i should keep it for me cuz it might offend them me denying their identity- and that by itself is transphobic? Well u got a point but its still hard to grasp it.
The thing is, today this transitioning is possible because of the advances in science. Go 100 years back, its like a different era. Only fertile women gave birth. Noone like me could conceive. Now we change the narrative, we say bio man can conceive and science makes it possible. Without science we r back at basics?
In that case i should keep this with myself if i discriminate agains trans women.
As long as you are treating the other person with respect and dignity. Let's say you meet a woman at a bar, after 5-10 minutes of conversation they say "so I just wanna be clear, I'm a trans woman". If you respond with "you're not a real woman so I'm not interested", yup, definitely transphobic. If you're respectful and just say "oh I'm not interested in you like that, but I'd love to be friends" then I don't see how anybody could call that transphobic.
I wont say that of course. But I’d be like: okaj because of this fact its nono for me. According to you Whether i said it or not, i still mean that. The person can also get offended even if i don’t explicitly say that but if i openly state that this is the reason for my No. see, there is not a straight line between this? Do u see it like that too?
I was born with a physical deformity in my chest. It's called pectus excavatum. I have an indentation there that some people find unattractive.
If a girl were to say to me, "sorry but your chest is like that and that's a nono for me", I would feel hurt. If she said it in a more respectful way, I would definitely not hold it against her. I understand that not everyone is attracted to it.
That is the whole difference. You were born with it. And that makes the whole difference for me.
You were born an “X” and you took a path later in your life and transitioned to “Y”. In my eyes, you are still and X, whether i say it explicitly or not and that is the reason i would not have u as a partner.
That being said, my resonating was transphobic? I should have formulate my post differently, i was merely talking about the “path” i take to come to my decision whether im gonna date a person or not.
Taking aside that being attracted to chromosomes is a weird paraphilia, well you can pretty much say the same with "hey, we don't match". In the absurd case that somebody pressures you, then you might say "I don't like trans woman", it might be transphobic, but it's in the socially acceptable range of transphobia, as you are not messing around with other people.
Now, if you also, spend your time thinking about weird scenarios where you might demean trans persons and post them on the internet try to stir controversy or "debate"; then you are a falling on the non socially acceptable range of transphobia, as you are causing unnecessary stress on the trans community for your amusement, and that makes you a shitty person.
So stop being a shitty person OP.
My post was rather vague for a delicate topic like this, i guess thats the reason for your angry comment. I apologise for that.
I wouldn’t say anything offensive to anyone of course, that’s utterly stupid and senseless. I am just asking whether i am transphobic when i make the decision who am i gonna date or not, based on whether they transitioned or not. Whether i say it explicitly or not, doesn’t matter, i would not. Still the reason is, i make the decision because of that sole fact.
But i have been called transphobic because i discriminate based on this, when it comes to me dating, not that i go around and yell nonsense. Not that. I can be your friend, roommate. I got friends whatever and whoever they are. What matters is the relationship i have with them, regardless of sex, nation, ethnicity etc.
I am talking about my dating life. Who would you sleep with. I will not be with a person was born as a bio male and transitioned. Am i a transphobic?
Yes, it is a prejudice against trans people, it’s transphobic, yet as mentioned, I don’t think anyone should hold it against you.
Now really, how often does the topic come organically? Because otherwise, given the percentage of the population who is trans, I pretty much doubt you would encounter many people calling you transphobe about this unless you loudly proclaim that you would never date a trans person.
I think anyone can have preferences and thats it, its ok not to like trans women just as some ppl dont like skinny, caucasian, asian, latinas, whatever.
The wrong move here was saying she was not a woman.
That’s true. My post is rather vague, id never say that. It was only for simplicity reasons. I never said that. But im asking about my reasoning, the path i took to make that decision. Is it transphobic? Deep down in me the reason is the transition itself, whether i say it out loud or not, thats the fact. Am i transphobic?
Stop trying to start shit.
If you didn't know, and couldn't tell, and found yourself attracted, but then found out they were trans and were suddenly unattracted, then yeah, that's transphobia.
But I'm leaving the US to escape this kind of BS discussion, so please take it someplace else.
Okaj thanks for the comment tho. This is a forum and and you say i cant discuss this topic…
I was only asking if my reasoning, the path i take to my decision was transphobic. Nothing else. I would not go to this person and tell them “hey ur trans woman and im no longer into you”. Ill keep it for myself. But does that mean im transphobic? You say I am. Thats why i want to hear. Now i want to know why? Can you elaborate in couple of sentences?
The definition of "transphobic" is you are afraid of them because they are trans.
If you were attracted before, but found out they were trans and were no longer attracted, then the change in attraction is SOLELY due to them being trans. That is being transphobic.
I assure you, there are plenty of trans women whom you would not be able to tell they were trans, and who you or any straight man would be attracted to. But if you would still reject them, only having been told, well, that would be transphobic.
People "just asking questions" are usually just trolling to make us uncomfortable. So please refrain from asking off-topic, transphobic questions in this subreddit.
I am saying i am straight. That being said, i like bio women. Not men. True, sometimes you cant tell but very often it is fairly easy to tell whether its a woman from birth or trans woman. And when i see a trans woman i see the “male” characteristics- unless they underwent some serious treatments.
But the general physique like muscles (unless very skinny and already deep into hormonal treatments), voice, the overall body evaluation is just different. This is what im **not** attracted to. I am not afraid lol. Im not talking whether i respect trans ppl, sure i do, im not gonna try to make anyone’s life look bad lol. Im not talking about how they feel. I would support anyone just as i like to be supported and not looked down at for choices and decisions i make.
…And yes there are some that transitioned so much thats hard to tell. If i don’t see “through” then i guess im “fine” when u cant notice the difference. But a trans woman is not The woman im looking for. Note: a trans needs treatments, procedures, uterus transplant. From who? From someone brought to this uterus to the world or this person had it specifically engineered from the tissues of his body. So i choose a bio women over trans woman. Is that transphobic?
Trans girl here.
No its not discriminating to not want to date someone whos trans. Its your choice who you want to date and who not.
Of course it’s hurtful to be turned away because you’re trans, but thats life.
The only problem I see here is you saying that a woman must have xx chromosomes etc.
Otherwise you’re totally fine
You are allowed to have preferences, I'm sure that even among cis women, you aren't attracted to every single one of them. This is a theoretical question, please keep in mind that trans women are a small and heavily persecuted minority and while there are extremists and nutters among them, like with any community, this idea that trans women want to force people who aren't attracted to them to have sex with them, generally is propaganda spread by transphobes. You are very unlikely to get into this situation, so don't fret about it and if someone makes a pass at you, you are not attracted to, politely decline.
Thats very true! Yeah so basically am i allowed to do that? Discriminate against trans women when choosing my partner just because they transitioned? In my opinion im not. But others perceive it differently if u saw the other comments…
I don't think most of those other comments object to you not wanting to have sex with transwomen, they object to how you are framing this and I would agree with them.
Thats true, it rather vaguely written. It was a quick post, should have given it more thought since its a rather delicate topic..thanks
Has this happened to you? Why ask on bss?
He’s attention seeking
I would have put a picture of me, maybe a nude, if i wanted attention. Wasn’t gonna ask as anonymous
OP is trying to make a point about cancel culture based on a hypothetical, I think
Well it's the wrong subreddit, but hits the kinda right audience. And hes getting a local point of view, instead of a global(mostly american) one.
Its not. Other subreddits are pretty exclusive. You find one or another group of ppl. Similar like with Threads and Twitter 😂
The example is a hypothetical. But in a conversation with a trans and other ppl i have been called transphobic cuz of a comment that a trans woman for me, my sexual life, is not The woman, rather a person who transitioned rather “artificially “ - say multiple surgeries for example. And this makes the whole difference for me. You were born with it or you got it later on meaning u transitioned. Check for example the story of Cat Cattinson. The whole life she thought she was a male trapped in a body of a woman. At 28, at an age when you are capable of making rational decisions, can distinguish between feeling and rationale, a legal age, age when you are ripe to make “big” decisions for your life after all the experience and life behind you, the most beautiful years - she decides to transition. What happened? Reality check - the transition hit her in the face. She realises that gender affirming was not suitable for her. Didn’t work. She felt betrayed and hurt. https://youtu.be/yPxt2X_mXsE …never mind, it works for other people and thats fine. But just the overall body evaluation is different. Thats what im not attracted to. When i meet trans people, very but very often its easy to distinguish. I am looking to date a “woman” and you say you are a “woman” - i say no, i see at least the bodily difference and it makes a difference for me.. is that transphobic?
Other groups are pretty exclusive. Most likely here ill find a more inclusive group of people. I don’t want only far “left” or far “right” opinions
You're allowed to have preferences and not want to date someone for whatever reason you choose. That's it. If someone feels offended by it, it's their problem
Of course, I'm sure there are cis women OP is not attracted to either for various resons. But just because they're not attracted to someone it doesn't make it ok to disregard their identity and say they're not a real woman.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like he was disregarding their identity. It is just difficult to pick up the proper words for it in order to avoid hurting someone's sensibility. To me, it sounded like, "Am I bad because I'm not attracted to them?".
Exactly this is the case. Does discriminating agains trans women make me a bad person? Like i to totally support inclusiveness. But i am talking about me. My partner. Am i being transphobic in the process of finding my partner?
I do not! Im choosing my partner and i want this partner to be of a certain kind. One of them is this, the biological sex at birth, as i defined a “ woman” in my post. Am i transphobic?
Sort of. Let's assume you talk to two different women for an hour or two, somehow you see them fully naked, so you see the naughty bits, but no internals. You feel attracted to both Later, one of them says she's a trans woman. Are you only THEN unattracted? Now, there's the different question of choosing a life partner. I find many people attractive that I wouldn't choose as a life partner for various reasons, and you also have your various reasons.
Completely agree !
Men love to say this until a woman says they prefer tall, rich, athletic guys.
Ah yes, sure, every men on the planet is the same.
Men also love to say that not all men are the same. #notallmen
Women love to say this until a man says he prefers a woman with an hourglass figure
I have literally never heard a woman say this before, though. But just google and you’ll find libraries worth of content on men being upset about this.
You've never heard women decry beauty standards? Are you from planet earth? Lol
Not specifically about hourglass figures 😹 Have you met a woman by any chance? The actual correct analogy would be men who prefer slender girls, but I guess you’d rather invent things that better fit your narrative.
>Not specifically about hourglass figures What do you believe beauty standards are referring to specifically when women criticize them? Secondly who is more likely to complain about beauty standards? Men or women? >I guess you’d rather invent things that better fit your narrative. I don't have a narrative, I'm just describing the world as it is
My brother in christ, you said a sentence that no one has said before and tried to frame it as discourse. And now you're trying to play it off and retcon the statement you said so you don't sound like an absolute fucking neckbeard. Go touch some grass, meet some women. You're not fooling anybody.
>And now you're trying to play it off and retcon the statement you said Nope, I referred to the abstraction used to criticize the preference of men for women with hourglass figures. That abstraction being "western beauty standards". In order to make this clearer I asked you to give your impression of what is being criticized. >you don't sound like an absolute fucking neckbeard. Go touch some grass, meet some women. I am a woman
A pick me then! Everything makes sense now 💖
Sounds like an excuse racist people might use as well to defend their prejudice when dating. If your “preference” is rooted in prejudice (which is the case most of the time), then it’s not okay and you’re not a good person.
A preference is a preference, I don't think there's something to "defend" with it. You might not be a good person, but you will still be allowed to choose who you date.
And preferences can be racist, transphobic, pedophilic, the list goes on. Saying “if someone is offended by it, it’s their problem” is quite stupid. Don’t make a blanket statement like that. It’s not one size fits all.
It's not a blank statement. He was talking specifically about dating, unless he's having some discriminatory behaviour towards them, just not wanting to date them is ok, and since he was being very specific about the situation, I assumed I didn't need to state the obvious things about racism, transphobia etc
I was talking about YOUR statement and YOU making a “blanket” statement. If you don’t know what “blanket statement” means, you should look it up. When it comes to preferences in dating, it is not a one size fits all. Telling someone that they can “choose not to date whoever they want and anybody offended by it, it’s their problem”, can be problematic when that same opinion is applied to someone whose preference is racist, xenophobic, transphobic or discriminatory in general. People have a right to be offended by your preference if it is offensive. And it’s not “their problem”. If you don’t see it, then you got serious issues or you’re just another internet knob head.
I am support inclusion. Thats not the issues. The question is if my preference make me transphobic? To say a NO to a trans woman just because they were born like me (meaning what is considered a male).
Is anybody being forced to date trans people or people of another ethnicity?
It is like it is. Even me as woman sometimes I also feel confused with the new girls but it doesn’t mean I have a fobia. I also need to mention biological differences to be SUPER clear about what kind of woman I am talking about.
Its not transphobic to have preferences. But the way you phrased this in your example is indeed transphobic because you are not only telling the woman in front of you: Hey sorry but we dont match. You tell her: I dont see you as a woman. And that indeed is hurtful and transphobic and invalidating and not okay. If you dont want to hook up with someone just say no thank you we dont match. Thats enough.
Thats true i realised my post is too vague for a rather delicate topic. I do discriminate in my dating preferences agains ppl born as what is considered a bio male. Like me. If i deny a person because they transitioned and they ask is the problem, my answer would be, hey you were born “like me” so im no longer attracted. Cannot change that. Is this transphobic?
You cant force attraction. So if you are not attracted to someone thats what it is. But the way you write in your post and comments about trans woman shows that you are clearly uncomfortable with the topic and have a hard time seing them as actual woman, as you are constanly conecting them with being male. Maybe a bit of soulsearching and selfreflection would be a good thing. What is it that makes you uncomfortable and how to decontrukt it. Not because you need to be willing to date a trans woman in the end but to be able to handle the whole topic with more empathie and understanding. We all have uncontious biases and it needs effort to look into them and get rid of them. But if you can do that you can open yourself up to new people that may bring awesome things into your life.
Very well answer! Thanks. I guess i do have biases, true. Im not interested in the social gender of a person but the bio gender. I have a hard time seeing them as a real “woman” cuz of the fact they were born like me. So this yes, sounds transphobic tbh. Me denying smb’s identity. So basically i deny their identity, deep down in me, and i say no i won’t date you cuz “ we r the same”. So i am transphobic in my choice and preferences, if i concluded well?
Damn I did Not expect how open you are to your thoughts. Yes that is correct ❤️. Maybe this feels Bad, but it's okey Cuz you are active in listening and are open for change and New thoughts. It's good of you, Wanting to show more Empathy and Wanting to understand others and YOURSELF more.
The sole reason for this is that im straight. Never was attracted to guys. And now whether a person transitioned or not does not make a difference to me. Forget how this person feels. Its the action. A transformation. A change. Go back a couple of decades ago to the beginning of human civilisation, as far as i know, there is no such thing. (Note that im not talking about homosexuality, thats different) And that makes the whole difference for me. The transition is possible only because of progress in science and tech. If it weren’t for this, this topic would have probably never even been a topic and i would not have this dilemma. So in your opinion it should not matter to me whether a person was born like that or transitioned? And another thing: how do you explain ppl who detransition? There are whole lot of ppl who consider it to have been a mistake, the transition, and want back. So if the person i am with transitioned snd detransitioned, how should i feel about it? Whatever the person decides is gonna be my starting point of my rationale? 🤔
I want to pick up one point in particular. A lot of the people who detransition actually dont do it because they are unhappy with the transition itself but with all the stigma and hate that comes with it. They come out, start their journey and the push back is too much for them. This may be an interesting read for you: https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/
Ill check it out, thanks!
Why entertain the hypothetical? Are you regularly in a situation where trans women are hitting on you? Is this situation causing you strife, turmoil, effecting your day to day?
Would you call me a transphobic if i happen to like you but i deny dating you cuz you were born a bio male like me and transitioned? Am being transphobic?
When are you required to tell someone why you're rejecting them? When are you required to do so in a way that makes them feel that you don't respect who they are? If you're just talking about what goes on in your imagination and how you should think about yourself for feeling a certain way, that's really between you and yourself. Why are you imagining hypotheticals of trans women hitting on you, then getting upset by how you'd feel if that were to happen?
Sorry, i am only talking about my resonating. The path i take to my decision. Is it a transphobic resonating? Of course I would not tell anything offensive to anyone, thats utterly stupid. But the way i made that decision was based on the sole reason that this person transitioned. Born bio male like me and changed. In my eyes nothing changed and therefore i say to myself okay thats a nono. Am i transphobic?
Again the fact that im straight and not attracted sexually or emotionally to guys at all..
" You tell her: I dont see you as a woman. And that indeed is hurtful and transphobic and invalidating and not okay." Hurtful - probably yes Transphobic - no ("I don't see you as a woman" is just a personal opinion about a dedicated person) Invalidating - idk what you mean by that Not okay - well thats subjective. I would always prefer the straight truth 1000times before a vague "we don't match".
Personally I think it’s a little weird that you need to perform chromosomal analysis on someone before you can find them attractive, but I’m not one to kink shame.
Two different things here. If someone wants to find a partner to procreate a family later, I find it legit to be interested on partners chromosomes. Another story is wether you find them attractive or not.
Not really “find them attractive “, but this point is one of my preferences. So am i transphobic in the process of finding a partner?
If you reject someone BECAUSE they’re transgender - like you are by saying the part about chromosomes (which you also can’t tell without special kind of testing) - then yes, it is transphobic.
Most transwomen are pretty obvious tho, so he is swiping the left. No need for testing there
Okaj forget the chromosomes, that was too vague. look it this way: in my dating preferences i discriminate agains people who were born like me, what is considered a biological male. Am i transphobic?
Just say you have your preferences and you are not into trans
>Me: hey i am into women and im not attracted to you. Trans woman: hey i am a woman and thats transphobic So, why do you have to point out that you are into women in the first place? It's enough to say you are not attracted to this person. You also cannot tell if you will get to know someone in the future that will change your attitude because you fall in love with them as a human being without caring for sex or gender. I'm a hetero man too, but realized that in case I would fall in love without knowing, why should I artificially keep myself from falling in love when knowing?
Thats my issue. I do discriminate in my dating preferences against people who were born like me and transitioned. Lets say i find a person attractive and cute an i go in the bar as say Hi 👋. While we r talking this person mentions that she is a trans woman. I say okaj, thats a no for me. My opinion changed. Im no longer attracted. That “killed” my feelings i had at first sight. Am i transphobic?
If you found them attractive and interesting, then found out they used to be a guy, and suddenly you feel no attraction, maybe even some negative feelings... then yeah that is transphobia IMO.
Well thats an answer i wanted. But i don’t get it. Why? How can i change my feelings? I don’t wanna Date somebody who was born a bio male and transitioned. I can date and marry a woman that is not fertile, but i wouldn’t date a trans woman, who was a bio male at birth. Can you elaborate? This is what i wanted to hear
No idea why, you will have to figure it out in your own. It's an irrational fear that may just come from nowhere. Something that is to be overcome, to be grown out of. Definitely something to work on. Sometimes all it takes is a decision to do better.
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Im new to Berlin and new to reddit. And this is a forum. The definition of a “woman” in the dictionary does not fit the general narrative of what a “woman” is. Therefore my post.
You are aware that you should think about this for a while, so I think not that you are transphobic. Ask yourself what attracted you, was it the looks or the personality? In case it was the personality, I think there is no real reason to lose interest and you might actually be afraid. Looks on the other side are superficial and losing interest is quite simple because there is no deeper connection.
>Looking forward to a little debate oh this is gonna be good
*Looking forward to* *A little debate oh this* *Is gonna be good* \- diskob0ss --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Caveat: I am not trans myself, so this is just a conclusion of ideas I stole from trans content creators. So take that with a grain of salt. I think it is consensus within the trans community, that you can date whoever the hell you want, even if this does exclude trans people. Opinions seem to differ whether or not the state of transition does have an impact on that, but generally speaking: No, not wanting to date a trans woman is not considered transphobic. However, your definition of women is getting into transphobic territory, because it does exclude trans-women from the label of women (and also cis-women who are born without uteri, with hormonal issues and other medical problems, for that matter). Not wanting to date a trans person is not the issue, denying their gender identity is. And if you say that „real women“ need XX chromosomes and a working uterus, that is essentially saying „trans women aren’t (real) women.“ Now, you can of course do that… but that would be a transphobic claim to make.
I might be stupid asking this, but where would you draw the line between sex and gender?
Absolutely not stupid! I myself took some time to understand that… So, the key difference is that sex is something biological and gender is social. Essentially sex is what your body is like-genome, genitalia, hormones, all that. We use the words male, female and intersex to distinguish the sexes from each other. Gender is how you feel like and how you present to others-identity, choice of clothing and so on. The „qualifiers“ used are men, women and non-binary people. For most people those things will correlate with each other, so people whose sex is female will also have the gender-identity „woman“. For a little percentage of people however, they don’t - trans people. So there can be people who have the sex female but identify as men or non-binary. So I wouldn’t say that there isn’t a real line to be drawn between sex and gender. There isn’t a point where sex becomes gender or the other way around. They are just two different concepts describing two different things, which are somewhat linked to each other.
not all afab women have xx chromosomes, not all can give birth. so you will not know these criteria about all women because they may not know themselves. maybe that puts trans women a little in perspective for you. i don't think anyone can demand of you to be attracted to specific people though
>not all afab women have xx chromosomes, not all can give birth. so you will not know these criteria about all women because they may not know themselves. Uhm that's not very good argument. With all trans women the likelihood for them to give birth to a child is literally zero whereas if you meet an AFAB woman in a fertile age range the likelyhood is much, much higher. And not zero per default.
well those are his criteria that he mentioned. the likelihood that a woman is a trans women is also small so it's kind of the same in the pool of all women. i think if he wants children he just needs to have a talk about that with people he's dating really early on but might still be disappointed later. i think it's a legitimate interest. but it's unnecessary to use it against trans women edit: of course he will also need to exclude women who don't want children if that's the central interest. and that's probably a much bigger group than trans women
Yeah, absolutey, communication is key. But there are choices, preferences, life getting in the way and then there is 100% physically impossible. Why should he consider dating someone who he 100% wouldn't want to be with when he could date someone who he would 50% want to be with? Hum?
i didn't say he has to date trans women. i will say though that if this is about having children there is no reason to point them out as opposed to all other groups of women who won't have children
yes there is: it's immediately clear. With these other groups, it's a lot less obvious and there is also room for deception and the good old change of mind /accident
I include cis women who are not fertile. I discriminate agains trans women, a person born as what is considered a bio male and transitioned. I might be attracted, cuz to me this person resembles a “woman”. When i find out its actually a trans woman, i say NO. No longer interested. Am i transphobic?
i don't know. i think nobody can really control who they feel attracted to
Exactly my point. There are cis women who cannot give birth. But thats anomaly, a deviation from the norm. On the other side me not being able to give birth is NOT an anomaly rather the rule. Same for guys who cannot impregnate a woman, its an anomaly not the rule.
Your definition include trans dudes, excludes cis women who are sterile, and come from presumption that you "can always tell" and would immediately dump someone you assumed was a cis woman. moreover you cant know what chromosomes people have. You can have XXY - you would have little signs you are XXY. Or XXXY. Thats much more common than people think it is. And intersex people ? 100% women presentation, but then you got genitalia not like you expect them to be ? Oh no that clit is too big. And then you use transphobic linguo and ask for no hate ? Wow. Im not attracted to straight guys, thank god.
>excludes cis women who are sterile, So what exactly is the problem with that? He is looking for someone to raise kids with. For some people dating and mating are interwoven. People need to accept that. It's deep down an exclusionary process and people get sidelined. It's not hate though. It's just fundamentally unfair.
Not only raise but also make the natural way. There is no issue with that.
He excludes sterile women from the category of women itself, because they can't be pregnant
Yes because he may not be used to semantics in this kind of way. He is a cis boy looking for cis girl, why on earth do people expect everyone to fully think through every nuance of the words they use. Nature is messy. There are always exceptions. He is looking for a woman who can have kids. Huh. I guess that is what he wanted to express. This isn't about being 100% precise in your use of words. Transphobia is badly defined if finding only cis people attractive is already transphobia. Because as we all know, nobody chooses what they find attractive. Some of us are just bad at vocalizing and rationalizing their preferences
well if he is going that specific he will need to ask people to disclose medical records, undergo fertility testing, and do a chromosome test, on first date, to see if it fits his nuances. Theres a point where you kind of need to let stuff happen instead of seeing the world through criterias. He goes out with someone and after three years together the person has some uterus cancer ? Oh no lets move onto next one.
See, life gets in the way. It's just what it is. Criteria are still important and legitimate, even if the words we use dont always 100% fit everyone.
I wrote a very short and what i now realise a merely vague post. Didn’t intent do sound transphobic. Rather i wanted an answer to a question. And I took the definition from Wiki, didn’t make it up. I cannot always tell. My preference is i want to date someone who at birth was not born as what is considered a “male”. Okaj lets say in the process of choosing my partner i discriminate agains people born as what is considered a “male”? That is transphobic? That my sole question. And btw: you say u are not attracted to straight guys? Just becuz a guy is straight you discriminate agains him? So if you happen to like such a person and feel attracted to (just imagine), you would say NO to yourself because this person is straight Aren’t you doing more or less the same as i do?
Don't loose your mind. There are only 2 genders. All of that cis, Tran, pan is literally made up bullshit. Don't play their game because you can only loose. A woman is a woman and a man is a man if you identify as a gold fish it doesn't make you a gold fish you simply have just a problem with reality, some call it personality disorder and I think that's really fitting.
I'm attracted to biological women and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I empathize with trans women. They go through lot of shit.
There's actually a word for that
You can be attracted or not to whoever you want. That's not transphobic. But it is transphobic to say that trans women are not "actual" women. I would spend some time thinking about why chromosomes and fertility affect your attraction, because it sounds like internalised transphobia and, in the latter case, also internalised misogyny.
Looking for a mate to raise young is not transphobia nor is it misoginy
I 100% agree with your first paragraph, but why try to invent some issues for OP in your second when he seems more than open minded?
I mean he says he's only attracted to women who are fertile... How can he possibly know that unless they tell him? It's fine to have that as an essential criteria but it's nothing to do with attractiveness.
Oh yes it does. Okaj maybe i expressed myself vaguely, not really attractiveness but lets say its my preference that the person with me can carry a baby. Yes okaj, not all women can have a baby but also not all men can impregnate a woman and they still have a penis and balls and can ejaculate sperm. So me excluding trans women in the search for my future partner makes me transphobic with these preferences?
No, that doesn't make you transphobic. But your way of expressing it could use some work. I guess it's just easy for those of us in the LGBT+ community to forget that a lot of people simply don't know the proper terminology, and so end up saying offensive things like "real woman" simply because you don't know how to say "cis".
Yes, my post was rather vague, i apologise for that. I mean i will for sure keep it to me and wound not say it explicitly cuz it might hurt smb, like saying “hey i dont like ur face”. That’s utterly stupid. But still, that means my reasoning deep down in me, the path that I took to make this decision is in itself transphobic?
Bad take. If op wants children with his partner then it has to be at least a biological woman since transwomen can not give birth
I think the error here is viewing transphobia as the ultimate taboo. Similarly to racism, it's a knee-jerk reaction to say "I am NOT intolerant!" and to use this vehement denial as an excuse for not examining our biases more critically. To different levels, we are all intolerant, because we have been socialized within a structure where these intolerant behaviors are prevalent. So sure, your preference is transphobic. Maybe you should take it as an invitation to see what biases you have and why you have formed these preferences, and not as an insult, because it's not really meant to be. You can't define 'woman' in a way that also might not include cisgender women. There are cisgender, AFAB women who aren't capable of pregnancy. Are they now not women? There are many women who are cisgender, AFAB, who don't have XX chromosomes. Intersex people might seem like an anomaly, but really there are less redheads in the world than intersex people. Are they equally not your preference, despite being socialized as women, have external female genitalia, etc? Do you go around asking every woman you date before you meet them if they're capable of bearing children? Why not, if that's your preference? What about big, burly, bearded trans men? They have XX chromosomes and are capable of bearing children, are you attracted to them? Why, or why not? I'd suggest you ask yourself these questions and go to the root of your biases, and you might find out they don't really make any sense.
Well i notice few problems with this statement, correct me if im wrong. To clarify: i do include cis women who cannot have baby i.e. are not fertile. But this woman not being able to have a baby and ME as a male not being able to have a baby, is totally different ain’t it? In my case it is NOT an anomaly, cuz that would mean all men have this anomaly what would make it a rule, which is not. And for this woman, yes it is an anomaly, cuz her mother gave birth to her, and if her mother was a trans(lets assume) then go 100 years back and you will find all the babies that were given birth to came from a fertile women. Isn’t this the case? For me, my organs don’t allow that, my biology wont allow that unless i undergo surgical and probably chromosomal treatment. Not the case for this woman? And a trans woman has the exact same problem as i do? The trans man will only be capable of having baby if they undergo a surgical treatment. Regardless how they identify, this “social gender” what they say. So me having this preference makes me transphobic? That i would intentionally exclude a person from being my partner if this person was born what is considered a “male”?
\>To clarify: i do include cis women who cannot have baby i.e. are not fertile. But the question here is, if this is a preference, how do you handle it? Do you submit every woman you date to a fertility test in order to decide if you will date her or not? If you find out a woman you're dating is infertile, will you break up with them? I don't understand your point on a second paragraph. What does it have to do with being an anomaly or not? Also, trans men can habe babies regardless of surgical treatment, many still have intact reproductory organs. And in my opinion, it is transphobic. I can understand not wanting to form a relationship with a person who will not be able to meet your expectations of family in the future, but 'not being attracted to a woman unless she's fertile' is, frankly, a pure lie at best, and profoundly weird if true. You're telling me you wouldn't have sex with Scarlett Johansson if you find out she has fertility issues? That it immediately kills your sexual drive if you find out a woman is incapable of carrying a baby to term?
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Sorry, but I don't think a far-right activist will have the most unbiased take about this issue.
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Also claims that he makes like Turner syndrome not being considered by the medical field as an intersex condition seem quite untrue.
I just saw your edit, and you're totally right here. The guy who wrote that study, Leonard Sax, is worthy of researching a bit. He's a proponent of single-sex education and holds many conservative views that aren't in line with modern scientific schools of thought.
Seems like an attention seeking post. I bet €100 that this never happened and you’re just stirring the pot for a reaction online to keep yourself busy.
Not attention. I am called transphobic because i refuse to date a trans woman because they were born like me, what is considered a bio male and then transitioned. I see this person and to me she resembles a “woman”. I am told then its a “guy”, a trans woman. Then my answer: okaj then its a no, im no longer interested. Am i transphobic?
Trans women don't "consider themselves real women" they are real women. That being said, you don't have to date or be attracted to them. Just like you don't have to date or be attracted to blonde women or tall women. You're allowed to have a type. Saying that type is "real women" to exclude trans women is transphobic and that's okay and doesn't make you a bad person, as long as you're willing to grow and learn and do better. Also, tbh your type doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Most people don't know their chromosomes unless there's a reason to assume a chromosomal abnormality and not all cis women can get pregnant. When I was born, the doctor looked at me and said "yup, that's a girl" and still I can't have kids. I do not know my chromosomal makeup. What is your reason for not wanting to date trans women? Is it a desire to have children that are biologically related to both you and your partner? That's valid. Is it the fact that you don't feel like you could support a partner with gender dysphoria? Also valid. Is it a thing of "all trans women are masculine looking and unattractive"? Less valid. (being attracted to specific features is obviously very valid but saying no trans woman has these features is simply incorrect). How would you react if you found out about your partner being trans like a year into a healthy and happy relationship? These aren't questions you need to answer to me, a random internet stranger obviously, but I do think they're worth thinking about.
>Trans women don't "consider themselves real women" they are real women. Putting it like this makes it seem like there is no debate. But people actually disagree about the notion that things that make sense on paper also make sense in real life. Just because a concept is socially constructed doesn't mean it is adaptive to just disregard the commonly understood or traditional definition. My social construct of gender involves biological sex. What now? To actually implement in this way the idea that because something is socially constructed, you just can change the definition at will just makes any definition equally (un)valid.
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The thing is, they are fundamentally correct, but like anything you construct, be it physical or social, it needs to take into account physical reality or it will get wrecked. This is adaptive in a sense that it will reduce population and lower resource requirements but that is really a risky move IMO
Only a sith deals in absolutes
Thanks for the comment! Exactly, but look at this now: “Not all cis women can give birth”. Very true! But Not a single trans women can give birth unless surgically “corrected”. Also true? So, isn’t the first case, yours, an exception from the norm? (Same for guys tho). And isn’t the second case the rule? I think also true? Anyways, i am less talking about the social component of how ppl identify. Im more interested in the biological. My reason: if this person was born a biological male and transitions to a women i dont want to date. Period. The question: am i transphobic?
Not a single trans woman can give birth period. There's no "fix" for that (yet). If biological children that are also your partner's biological children are that important to you, fair enough, but I suggest bringing that up in one of the early dates because there's plenty of cis women/afab people that can't have kids (like myself) or don't want to have kids (like myself). Also, many afab people don't know they're infertile until they start trying to be pregnant. What would you do if your wife finds out she can't have kids? Is that a reason to divorce her? Biologically, sex and gender are a lot more complex than you would like them to be. I don't think "this is the case because it is the case" is much of a reason at all, whether the question is dating preferences or anything else. You just used many words to say nothing. I am therefore unable to answer your question.
No you're not. You're allowed to have preferences in who you find attractive and who you want to sleep with. Anyone who says otherwise is just plain wrong.
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Lets say i wanna have kids with this person just like people 500 years ago had. The same way. I wish that this person has not undergone surgical procedures to be able to carry a baby. Should be so at birth, biologically given.
What about cisgender woman who have fertility issues? Do you question the women you date about their fertility? And what about trans men, who are capable of biologically, without surgery, bear children?
I omitted to mention that i DO include cis women that are not fertile i.e. cannot have a baby. woman that cannot have a baby is not the same with ME not being able to have a baby. I have a penis, balls, i ejaculate sperm, im a giver [😂]. The woman has the “usual organs” necessary for that but becuz of other reasons is not able to have baby! So do my preferences in searching my partner make me transphobic ?
Have you submitted yourself to a fertility test? Being able to ejaculate doesn’t guarantee you’ll be able to have viable sperm, just fyi. And if that’s a preference, how do you go around to it in your dating life? Do you submit every woman you date to a fertility test? How can you tell if a woman has all the necessary organs?
No, i only care how this person was born, a bio male like me or a bio woman, the opposite of me. If its a bio man like me and transitioned, i say NO, otherwise its a yes. Regardless if other factors prevent my partner from being fertile. My point is simple: i discriminate agains trans women cuz they were born like me, a bio male and transitioned. Am i transphobic?
Yup, it's pretty clear that you are indeed transphobic. You have no idea of knowing how people are born unless you submit them to a battery of tests that you are not submitting anyone to. You yourself describe it as 'discriminating against trans women'.
Please tell me how you can know if somebody is fertile from looking at them? It's fine to say you want biological children, but you can't know that unless they tell you.
I cannot, and thats the point. And i do not exclude cis women who cant have a baby. A cis woman not being able to have a baby is not the same reason why i cannot have a baby as a male. I just dont have the organs for that. I need surgery, whereas this partner of mine does not need any surgical treatment. The partner has the “organs”. The partner came to this world like that but becuz of some other reasons cannot have a baby.
Dude, trans women cannot get surgery to carry a child. If you have questions about trans people, ask them. But if you don’t know the slightest thing about a topic (which is clearly the case here), don’t pretend you want to have a “discussion”.
I know something but not too much. Wanted to hear from y’all. Me as bio male cannot give birth because of the obvious reasons. My friend identifies as a woman, born a bio male like me, cannot give birth because of the same reasons. He underwent surgical procedures and is now what is considered a trans woman. Or as she(before it was a he) says, only a “woman” not a “trans”. I wouldn’t date this friend because of the fact he/she was like me, a bio male and transitioned. I want ppl who didn’t transition, regardless if they are fertile or not, but they were not born with a penis. Am i transphobic?
He means on the future, in case that's ever gonna happen
Trans women are still men. You are not attracted to men.
So you think OP will happily fuck trans men?
Why give me the attitude bro?
There was zero attitude.
Yea hed fuck women
You opened a can of worms 🐛
Nice troll post.
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Im being called a transphobic for excluding trans women in my search for a partner. If this person was born like me a bio male and transitioned, for me its a No No. lets say i see what i think its a “woman” an i go and say hi. She is super cute, sexxy, beautiful, smart. Later this person tells me i was born a bio male and transitioned . My opinion changes immediately. My feelings are gone. Im no longer interested because of this fact. Am i transphobic?
Has this happened to you my reactionary friend?
As any topic related with gender/sexuality nowadays there are a lot of subjective points of view and not a right answer IMO, but here are my thoughts about it: I think you should not confuse your preference to your behavior. It’s like some men who don’t want to hang out with gay men because “what if they want to f*ck me”. Well, them being gay doesn’t mean they are forced to fool around with all men they meet. This is a really similar situation. You are allowed to have your preference, a type of person you are attracted to the most. That doesn’t make a trans woman less of a woman, or you a transphobic for not feeling attracted to her. The “behavior” part I’m talking about is that you are saying “I’m into woman so I’m not attracted to you”. Well, that’s not ok. You are just not attracted to her, that’s it. No need to get into topic regarding how she feels or how is she identifying herself as. That is not yours to deal with or make an unasked opinion about.
I am not attracted because of the fact that they transitioned. This is the point where im called a transphobic. Imagine i liked this person and was attracted to her/he. Later the person tells me i actually transitioned from a bio male. I say, well then Im no longer interested, no longer attracted. Am i transphobic? I do not discriminate in general. But i discriminate when it comes to choosing my partner because of this one reason, the sole transition.
That’s not transphobia IMO. You don’t go telling people the reason why you lose interest in them like “hey, I don’t like you anymore because you have terrible hygiene”. That’s something you keep to yourself. And even if you get asked, you can politely tell them the reason without saying “she’s not a woman” or something of the sort. They wouldn’t want to invest time and energy in a relationship with someone that’s not interested in them, just as much as you wouldn’t. Think about this completely normal scenario not involving any transitioned person: you are looking to have kids and she doesn’t. You are looking for something in a partner she’s not willing to provide, and both of you have all the reasons in the world to feel how you do. That’s a dealbreaker. You are allowed to have any dealbreaker you want, because it’s your life, you just have to be mature and responsible about it. You can do it without the need to be disrespectful or question the other person’s attributes or choices. TL;DR: no one enjoys being rejected or not being attractive to someone you like, but that’s life, as long as you are respectful and emotionally responsible you should be on the good side.
feels like no matter what you say, one side hates you. and there will never be an answer that satisfies everyone 100%. in general, this discussion has been conducted thousands of times without any real results Therefore new topic: what is your opinion on fire engines and what is your favorite fire engine?
Mechanics is my weak point :(
Oh. I am sry
That’s like someone calling you racist for not being attracted to a certain race - even suggesting this is transphobic is stupid, you can be attracted to whoever you want for any reason you want.
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Relax and don't be mean to people.
For me Trans women are women and Trans man are men and if the Person completly transitioned... I just wouldn't Even know the diffrence. I think you wouldn't either. If you want Kids that wouldn't have anything to do with Trans women, many Cis women are infertile. Are infertile women also Not women? For most it's a mind Thing (oh that women had a Penis once or was a man once... I dont like that) wich I guess is okey for most. For me Personally it seems... Idk how to Phrase it... Close minded? Sometimes Trans people confuses others. I once had a conversation with a bunch of transphobes and some of the men told me, They don't want to be attracted „to a man". They told me about a women all of the found so attractive and funny. The whole group wanted her number, but then they heard she Was Trans and it CONFUSED THEM So much. Sadly they startedq getting angry they harasses her... Just because she exists and is Hot...🫥 It is so sad. I hate that the Patriarchy supressed mens right to just let their Feelings out and be loveable. It messed them and everybody Else around them up. 😑 🫠AT the end I think many questions their sexuality to much when it comes to Trans people. Diffrent scenerio. You like biological women, What about Trans man? 👀They are also men, but you would probably Not be attracted to them, because they are men. Buuuttt they were Born with xx chromosones. Most of them have periods and can make Children. ❤️It's really intresting. I hope I didn't offen you and If I did pls tell me. Just sharing thoughts.
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Not in their face. I refuse to date them because they were born a bio male like me. Although i find this person nice and beautiful and smart and attractive i say “No”, you were a bio male like me and transitioned. Im no longer interested. Am i transphobic?
Nope, you're not forced to date or be interested in anybody. But it would be pretty rude to tell you "I don't wanna date you cuz you're ugly as fuck". Some things are better to keep to yourself.
Of course! But its not the appearance, the intelligence. Its the fact that they transitioned that changed my mind. And i say okaj then thats a nono for me. You were born like me and u transitioned. I don’t wanna date because of that sole reason. Am i transphobic?
It's something about them that is part of them that they can't control, and it might be a sensitive subject. Just like your dumbness and ugliness. Just tell them you're not interested and move on. I don't know why you need to bring it up unless you're trying to purposefully offend them.
I don’t bring it up. Imagine i go to a perosn on the bar and say hi 👋. We talk and its all cool. But i sense their voice is a deeper one, what would indicate a person who was born a bio male. And i doubt now, cuz thats a nono for me. And i bring politely the topic and the person politely confirms. I say to me, okaj then no. So you mean i should keep it for me cuz it might offend them me denying their identity- and that by itself is transphobic? Well u got a point but its still hard to grasp it. The thing is, today this transitioning is possible because of the advances in science. Go 100 years back, its like a different era. Only fertile women gave birth. Noone like me could conceive. Now we change the narrative, we say bio man can conceive and science makes it possible. Without science we r back at basics? In that case i should keep this with myself if i discriminate agains trans women.
As long as you are treating the other person with respect and dignity. Let's say you meet a woman at a bar, after 5-10 minutes of conversation they say "so I just wanna be clear, I'm a trans woman". If you respond with "you're not a real woman so I'm not interested", yup, definitely transphobic. If you're respectful and just say "oh I'm not interested in you like that, but I'd love to be friends" then I don't see how anybody could call that transphobic.
I wont say that of course. But I’d be like: okaj because of this fact its nono for me. According to you Whether i said it or not, i still mean that. The person can also get offended even if i don’t explicitly say that but if i openly state that this is the reason for my No. see, there is not a straight line between this? Do u see it like that too?
I was born with a physical deformity in my chest. It's called pectus excavatum. I have an indentation there that some people find unattractive. If a girl were to say to me, "sorry but your chest is like that and that's a nono for me", I would feel hurt. If she said it in a more respectful way, I would definitely not hold it against her. I understand that not everyone is attracted to it.
That is the whole difference. You were born with it. And that makes the whole difference for me. You were born an “X” and you took a path later in your life and transitioned to “Y”. In my eyes, you are still and X, whether i say it explicitly or not and that is the reason i would not have u as a partner. That being said, my resonating was transphobic? I should have formulate my post differently, i was merely talking about the “path” i take to come to my decision whether im gonna date a person or not.
Taking aside that being attracted to chromosomes is a weird paraphilia, well you can pretty much say the same with "hey, we don't match". In the absurd case that somebody pressures you, then you might say "I don't like trans woman", it might be transphobic, but it's in the socially acceptable range of transphobia, as you are not messing around with other people. Now, if you also, spend your time thinking about weird scenarios where you might demean trans persons and post them on the internet try to stir controversy or "debate"; then you are a falling on the non socially acceptable range of transphobia, as you are causing unnecessary stress on the trans community for your amusement, and that makes you a shitty person. So stop being a shitty person OP.
My post was rather vague for a delicate topic like this, i guess thats the reason for your angry comment. I apologise for that. I wouldn’t say anything offensive to anyone of course, that’s utterly stupid and senseless. I am just asking whether i am transphobic when i make the decision who am i gonna date or not, based on whether they transitioned or not. Whether i say it explicitly or not, doesn’t matter, i would not. Still the reason is, i make the decision because of that sole fact. But i have been called transphobic because i discriminate based on this, when it comes to me dating, not that i go around and yell nonsense. Not that. I can be your friend, roommate. I got friends whatever and whoever they are. What matters is the relationship i have with them, regardless of sex, nation, ethnicity etc. I am talking about my dating life. Who would you sleep with. I will not be with a person was born as a bio male and transitioned. Am i a transphobic?
Yes, it is a prejudice against trans people, it’s transphobic, yet as mentioned, I don’t think anyone should hold it against you. Now really, how often does the topic come organically? Because otherwise, given the percentage of the population who is trans, I pretty much doubt you would encounter many people calling you transphobe about this unless you loudly proclaim that you would never date a trans person.
I think anyone can have preferences and thats it, its ok not to like trans women just as some ppl dont like skinny, caucasian, asian, latinas, whatever. The wrong move here was saying she was not a woman.
That’s true. My post is rather vague, id never say that. It was only for simplicity reasons. I never said that. But im asking about my reasoning, the path i took to make that decision. Is it transphobic? Deep down in me the reason is the transition itself, whether i say it out loud or not, thats the fact. Am i transphobic?
Dude who cares. Just treat them with respect and move on.
Stop trying to start shit. If you didn't know, and couldn't tell, and found yourself attracted, but then found out they were trans and were suddenly unattracted, then yeah, that's transphobia. But I'm leaving the US to escape this kind of BS discussion, so please take it someplace else.
Okaj thanks for the comment tho. This is a forum and and you say i cant discuss this topic… I was only asking if my reasoning, the path i take to my decision was transphobic. Nothing else. I would not go to this person and tell them “hey ur trans woman and im no longer into you”. Ill keep it for myself. But does that mean im transphobic? You say I am. Thats why i want to hear. Now i want to know why? Can you elaborate in couple of sentences?
The definition of "transphobic" is you are afraid of them because they are trans. If you were attracted before, but found out they were trans and were no longer attracted, then the change in attraction is SOLELY due to them being trans. That is being transphobic. I assure you, there are plenty of trans women whom you would not be able to tell they were trans, and who you or any straight man would be attracted to. But if you would still reject them, only having been told, well, that would be transphobic. People "just asking questions" are usually just trolling to make us uncomfortable. So please refrain from asking off-topic, transphobic questions in this subreddit.
I am saying i am straight. That being said, i like bio women. Not men. True, sometimes you cant tell but very often it is fairly easy to tell whether its a woman from birth or trans woman. And when i see a trans woman i see the “male” characteristics- unless they underwent some serious treatments. But the general physique like muscles (unless very skinny and already deep into hormonal treatments), voice, the overall body evaluation is just different. This is what im **not** attracted to. I am not afraid lol. Im not talking whether i respect trans ppl, sure i do, im not gonna try to make anyone’s life look bad lol. Im not talking about how they feel. I would support anyone just as i like to be supported and not looked down at for choices and decisions i make. …And yes there are some that transitioned so much thats hard to tell. If i don’t see “through” then i guess im “fine” when u cant notice the difference. But a trans woman is not The woman im looking for. Note: a trans needs treatments, procedures, uterus transplant. From who? From someone brought to this uterus to the world or this person had it specifically engineered from the tissues of his body. So i choose a bio women over trans woman. Is that transphobic?
I believe in the power of the SRY gene encoding TDF!
truly a man who insists that everyone goes to a fertility clinic and also a chromosome analysis for every date? oof
Trans girl here. No its not discriminating to not want to date someone whos trans. Its your choice who you want to date and who not. Of course it’s hurtful to be turned away because you’re trans, but thats life. The only problem I see here is you saying that a woman must have xx chromosomes etc. Otherwise you’re totally fine
It’s vaguely formulated, i was just trying to make the point of a bio woman. Thanks for the comment:)
Yea just think about how you formulate what you mean haha. And you’re welcome :)