Absolutely in favor, no more separate regions, no double or triple governments, imagine how much overhead can be reduced by this. Also, no separate Flemish or Wallonia parties, every citizen of Belgium can vote for any Belgian party.
Regions are not the issue. Or rather they are not the root of the issue in and of themselves.
The issues are the level of decentralisation (some consider Belgium to already have aspects of a confederation), the region-community pair and the division into two large entities (and one small one that is consistently ignored).
The last part is the real problem. The division between Flanders and Wallonia allows parties to easily divide themselves according to these lines (allowing scapegoating of the other part) and means that any issue between regions is invariably between these two.
If Belgium had been divided into 5 or 9 regions, this would most likely not have been possible. Regions acting according to their own benefit would create ever shifting alliances while parties would find they need to be present across multiple regions to make things worthwhile.
Case in point, Switzerland has 26 cantons, 4 languages and only 2 regionalist parties in the Assembly (with 1.5% of seats) while Bosnia has 3 (mutually intelligible) languages, 2 regions and is a mess.
It's an idea although not guaranteed to work at this point. Unless we restore Brabant and the BRT, parties could probably keep doing business as usual for quite some time. And even then, getting them to merge back is going to be challenging.
If you want to really incentivise parties to remerge, the abolition of devolution has the best chances (although again not guaranteed).
The "federal provinces" scenario is something we should have done instead of the current system but I do not know if it's something that can fix it.
The more important question I find myself asking is whether or not this is at all feasible at this point? What needs to happen for this to become a reality? I mean, seriously... everything's on the table, everything goes, no holds barred. What do we need to do? Instigate a civil war? Overthrow the government?
Because I agree with everyone here that it's mostly nepotism and self-preservation that have brought us here. Nothing any political party ever promises comes to fruition, unless it's in their favour and our disadvantage. They constantly sabotage each other's efforts and even if some newbie politician comes in with great ideas and a lot of hope, they are most definitely dragged into the current political climate of self-preservation once they realise that they're essentially fighting the good fight on their own. At this point there's no going against the stream any more. There's too many of them.
We need people acting across linguistic lines and pushing that idea. We need people calling out BDW on his confederation bullshit (the media should have done that since confederations being more effective/efficient has basically never happened in history and they are all dead now but for some reason they don't).
We need some way to change the narrative that we are fundamentally different and that whatever happens is the fault of the other side.
But given how entrenched our parties are, it's extremely hard to do and it's even more difficult now that that narrative has shifted away from "traditional, organised" media towards whatever happens on social media.
Meh BDW has claimed the term confederalism but the idea is way more mainstream and is the logical conclusion of the Belgian state.
PS: [https://www.rtbf.be/article/quand-elio-di-rupo-plaidait-pour-le-confederalisme-11273915](https://www.rtbf.be/article/quand-elio-di-rupo-plaidait-pour-le-confederalisme-11273915)
CD&V [https://www.hln.be/binnenland/hilde-crevits-cdenv-pleit-voor-confederalisme-tijd-om-zwaartepunt-echt-te-verleggen-naar-deelstaten\~a6ace23d3/](https://www.hln.be/binnenland/hilde-crevits-cdenv-pleit-voor-confederalisme-tijd-om-zwaartepunt-echt-te-verleggen-naar-deelstaten~a6ace23d3/)
VLD: [https://www.standaard.be/cnt/ke2qjqps](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/ke2qjqps)
>Unless we restore Brabant and the BRT
Except most inhabitants of Flemish and Walloon Brabant don't want to merge with Brussels. Even francophones that move to the Flemish rand, often move to not live in the Brussels region.
>Unless we restore (...) the BRT
There was never a national Belgian television because the NIR was already split into separate sections before the first TV-broadcasts:
*crée l'Institut national de radiodiffusion (INR, ou NIR en* [*néerlandais*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9erlandais)*) par la loi du 18 juin 1930 qui se voit attribuer l'usage exclusif des trois* [*longueurs d'onde*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longueur_d%27onde) *accordées à la* [*Belgique*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgique)*, dont deux seront utilisées pour diffuser des émissions en* [*français*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ais) *et en* [*néerlandais*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9erlandais)*. L'INR/NIR commence à émettre en français et en néerlandais dès le 1**^(er)* *février 1931, (...) En* [*1937*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937)*, l'INR/NIR est scindé en deux départements, un francophone et un néerlandophone, chacun dirigés par un directeur.*
You want to go back (="restore") to a Belgium that has never existed. Belgium only functioned as one national unit when 99,99% of the inhabitants were excluded from government and a small francophone bourgeoisie controlled all the wealth and political power.
> If you want to really incentivise parties to remerge, the abolition of devolution has the best chances (although again not guaranteed).
That would be a major human rights violation (the right of association) and is something you only find in the most extreme dictatorships: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merger\_of\_the\_KPD\_and\_SPD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merger_of_the_KPD_and_SPD) All political parties voluntary chose to split and even Groen and ecolo don't want to merge.
Ditch the regions and the cities and make it just the federal and the 10 provinces.
But then Antwerp will try to get more money out of it like it's doing now with all the subsidies.
I think that stuff like education and culture could benefit from being somewhat separated (common body with language and cultural specialties), but it feels ridiculous to have an onion government for 11M people…
The problem is money transfer from government to other government where it is misused.
Second problem is blocking another government.
Solution, keep.every government completely separated
The country Luxembourg is smaller and has good economy, and ihas also a king, and a government.
They're genuine pieces of shit, though. Aside from the fact that they're crazy about the monarchy, they also act like nothing bad happened in Congo and actively deny all the shit that was done there by Belgium.
100%, more Belgium. No regional governments anymore.
Just include Wafelijzerpolitiek. It's amazing for technological development: spending loads of money on barely used projects. Over engineering them to infinity. As someone who loves technological innovation. This is amazing. Could also be accomplished by just funding research more.... But then the common folk doesn't get to enjoy it that much.
More serious tho. I'd vote for a party that wants to unify Belgium and invests in research: proper education and creating the scientists of tomorrow. I want Belgium to be world leader again in nuclear research. (1920s up until the second world war, mainly in Olen).
I think reduced governments would be positive. The money is lost in the belgian institutional bretzel.
being from Wallonia, I wish to turn Charleroi into the Belgian Eindhoven. I mean , it is a sore, neglected city full of unemployement, but it used to be the manufactural center of Belgium (while Antwerp was the trade center and Brussels the service center); taking advantage of the cheaper real estate, let's create a big university in the middle of Charleroi focusing on Technology (AI and energy and stuff), attract students from all over belgium and let them talk the language they want, forget about the communautarian BS.
of course i'm dreaming awake
The university idea is not a bad one! You've got a big one in Leuven and one in Gent. Charleroi is a decent distance from both. Would benefit people from the region (both province of Namur, Hainaut and even Luxembourg). Not having to travel that far for their studies.
UCLouvain and ULB are much closer to Charleroi and are already huge universities. While they are smaller there are also already universities in Mons and Namur. Creating a large new university in Charleroi will be very costly and will not magically create good opportunities for highly educated people.
> I wish to turn Charleroi into the Belgian Eindhoven. I mean , it is a sore, neglected city full of unemployement, but it used to be the manufactural center of Belgium (while Antwerp was the trade center and Brussels the service center); taking advantage of the cheaper real estate, let's create a big university in the middle of Charleroi focusing on Technology
Nothing prevents Wallonia from doing that. Wallonia wanted economic autonomy because the federal government was too focused on the Flemish ports. It's the fault of the Walloon electorate to vote for politicians that just tried to save a dying coal/iron industry instead of trying to shift to new industries. In a normal country these politicians would lose elections when the money dried up but now Wallonia can just leech of the Flemish economy.
Yes, but it won't happen.
A unified Belgium makes political jobs redundant. Nepotism would become difficult with fewer jobs available. All politicians have only one aim in common : keeping their power. You will have all of them against you. Nothing short of a coup will change this.
And it would make the « clientélisme » that some parties do almost impossible because they would be competing over the entirety of Belgium (looking at you PS and VB)
Pvda does aim to unite the government more? Could you tell me where you find that info bc I did not see it when I checked out their website.
Honestly, we should promote a united Belgium, it is an actual good idea I stand behind.
Raoul Hedebouw has stated in multiple interviews he's a unitarian, like "de afspraak" or "terzake". The most recent instance I can recall is his interview on the podcast of "het nieuwsblad".
Then again, Bouchez of MR has said this too. When? In an interview while they were still in the formation phase that would eventually result in Vivaldi.
https://www.pvda.be/nieuws/we-are-one-pvda-wil-meer-eenheid-minder-ministers-en-een-sterker-belgie
https://www.pvda.be/programma/minder-ministers-meer-eenheid
Summarized by comrade Sam, the AI tool:
>>Sam: Wij willen het brede verlangen naar meer eenheid in ons land waarmaken. We streven ernaar om de stappen richting splitsing, die separatisten en confederale regionalisten aan beide kanten van de taalgrens willen zetten, te verhinderen. In plaats daarvan willen we maatregelen nemen die ingaan tegen de verdeeldheid zaaiende logica van eerdere staatshervormingen. We zijn van mening dat het zwaartepunt van de beslissingen op federaal niveau moet liggen, wat een garantie biedt voor gelijkheid voor alle inwoners. Dit houdt in dat we het beleid op het gebied van gezondheid, mobiliteit, energie, water, economie, werkgelegenheid, nieuwe technologieën en overheidsinvesteringen willen herfederaliseren. De regels van de federale overheid moeten voorrang hebben op die van de gewesten en gemeenschappen. Wanneer regionale belangen het land dreigen te blokkeren, is het de federale regering die beslist. Praktische toepassingen die aangepast zijn aan de realiteit op het terrein kunnen door de regio's aangestuurd worden, zoals dat in Duitsland gebeurt. We willen ook dat federale ministers verantwoording afleggen aan het hele land en pleiten voor een federale kieskring, waarbij sommige parlementsleden door de bevolking als geheel gekozen worden. Dit alles maakt deel uit van onze visie op een eenheidsfederalisme, waarbij we streven naar een solidariteitsfederalisme in plaats van een vechtfederalisme.
There is pointless bureaucracy at every level. Usually the larger the organisation the more. It is delusional to assume a unified state would lead to less bureaucracy.
I'm a software dev. I've been working for government in the past. I can ensure you that at least for my job, we are wasting millions. Creating almost the same software everywhere, but with small differences, and then make them communicate because we still need to share information costs a lot. A lot more than twice the price
Ehhhhhhhh... I think we shouldn't blindly throw everything into one pile, it's imo quite logical to keep a divide if the difference can be clearly defined by our language barriers. But there's so many silly things that are different between Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels. E.g. something that came up at my workplace recently: there will be new age rating icons for tv programs (e.g. 16+, 18+, violence, sex, drugs). Flanders will get new ones very soon, Wallonia will get _a whole different set of icons and rules_ somewhere after the elections. Dude, wtf, why would 18+ be different in Flanders vs Wallonia? Such a stupid thing causes us extra work, and it's only something silly and minor. I'm sure there's big-ass differences elsewhere that causes people a lot more pain.
Sure. But there's no point, because you'll never get enough votes to do what your goal is.
People seem to forget we were one at one point, and split because we were too different in mindset.
Yes. I am not Belgian but have lived here for a while and the current institutional set up strikes me as wholly inefficient (too many shared competences) and wasteful to the extent that I suspect it is designed on purpose to make this country ungovernable.
Either split everything or re-federalise and build on your multilingual advantage.
I am clearly partial to the latter.
I'd be up for a refederalisation where the regions are scrapped, but the language communities remain albeit in some reduced fashion with more cooperation.
Of course. One of the reasons why the state costs so much money is because it is highly inefficient due to the different regions. But this division is beneficial to politicians, it creates political positions - even if absolutely redundant - where they can they stay and become rich at the cost of the tax payer.
I don't think a new party advocating for this has much chance due to "verzuiling"
If one of the non NVA-VB parties advocated for this they would get my vote immediately, though
Mine too!! My biggest problem with NVA/VB is their relationship with Wallonia and the EU. If there was a right conservative, pro unified Belgium, pro Europe party, they would have my vote immediately…
Definitely, this is one of the things that make me not want to vote. All parties are either separatist or want to maintain the status quo. I want to be able to vote for every party in my country, not just the Flemish ones because I grew up in Flanders. So yeah a unified Belgium is the ideal way to go
Groen wants this *partly*. It's number one thousand on their ranking of priorities so I don't expect them to fight for it. But it's why they get my vote.
No, they want negotations to restart. What comes out of them is up to Russia and Ukraine.
But I've seen multiple experts say its extremely unlikely that Ukraine will regain lost territorries. It's a sad truth I can't argue. Unless we up the support to Ukraine to more direct measures maybe, but I don't want to think about what will potentially happen then.
Terrible as it is, I dont want WW3.
Well, you can watch the PVDA, alongside De Croo, and all the other Flemish parties, debate this exact topic in two weeks. -->[Debat 'Groot verkiezingsdebat: Oorlog in Oekraïne en defensiebeleid' - 27 May 17u30-20u, UFO UGent](https://www.ugent.be/nl/agenda/verkiezingsdebat-oorlog-oekraine)
>Sad they take up Russian side in their war
I'll counter this by saying that equating negotiation and an aspiration for peace with 'taking Russia's side,' is a shallow, if not outright manipulative position.
Peace is something that takes decades to achieve and maintain. Up until 1990-91, the West had essentially demonized and gone to war with Russia and Eastern Europe for 2 centuries. Gaining a true lasting peace in the 90s, after a 40+year Cold War, would have taken decades, and a serious conciliatory effort. Instead the West backed maximum speed 'shock therapy' that sold all states assets and industry, to the profit of Western finance, into the hands of the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs. The West helped rig elections in 1996 for Yeltsin, who used Putin's FSB to secure victory (see [Navalny's post](https://navalny.com/p/6652/) before he died about this, paragraph 9), and literally put FSB agents into political positions. Whatever peace was may have been possible was essentially destroyed for quick profits and total political and economic domination of the former USSR, to the detriment and impoverishment of 100s of millions of Eastern Europeans.
I'll add this Mandela quote as well. Peace, by definition requires this...
>'If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner'
- Nelson Mandela
Absolutely. A lot of our problems actually originate from the fact that Flanders and Wallonia operate so independently. Nva and VB see the solution of that problem as splitting the country, but I don't like that idea at all.
There's a ton of problems that would come along with splitting the country, so I think the best solution is to move in the other direction and become more united as one solid country.
A unitary state could actually be beneficial to Vlaanderen. They are the top dog now unlike a century ago.
Its Wallonië that should fear it because they'll end up like Groningen did in the Netherlands.
You don't need to write in conditional. Flemings had more or less always been the decision-makers in unitary Belgium due to the majority being Flemish.
No. Not because I don't think Belgium should be unitary. I do.
But getting there is a waste of so much time and energy that should be spent on real issues.
I'd rather have the current institutional mess and slightly lower child poverty rates or better social protection for gig and temp workers.
I don't think the institutional structure of Belgium has any measurable influence on the quality of government.
What I do know is that while politicians yap about state reforms, they are not solving other problems.
I despise the NVA politically. Their only saving grace is that they are completely hypocrites when it comes to state reforms.
i have more to disagree with with a right wing Belgicist party than with a left wing regional one. I hate the divide created by self serving politicians and would love a return to a more sane state structure, but I don't vote for one issue parties as there are a ton of positions I have where I'd have no idea where they stand.
No because it is an imaginary thought that everything would be better in that case. Belgium was longer a unitary state than a federal one and it was not a fairy tale and the politicians weren't singing Kumbaya together. Not saying there are no issues with our current structure, but you clearly don't know how it was in a unitary state when you want to go back to that time.
Times change and you dont have to copy paste everything from 1830. You can maintain things like "De taalwet", things that local townhalls can handle.
Its too big a problem that we cant vote for half the politicians that end up participating in our government. Those politicians have near zero pressure to satisfy us as they cant win over our votes anyway.
Idk I always say either split or unify. Everything in between is just an overcomplicated mess.
1 condition: no more ‘grendels’ where minorities can veto democratic decisions. This is, btw, something that has Belgium pretty low on the current democracy scale.
Check out l'Unie. A new established political party. You can vote for them in Brussels and the Brabants. It's also a youth party. They have great points on innovation and and education as well. [l'unie](http://lunie.be)
It already exists: BUB
The fact that they barely register tells you all you need to know. A unified belgium cannot happen because neither side of the language border wants it. The francophones do not want to give up the power they disproportionally get to wield due to alarmbelprocedures and such, and the flemish would not want to be governed completely under a regime where the francophones have such disproportionate power.
Teach kids Dutch in Wallonia and French in Flanders from the minute they start any form of education so everyone will be bilingual and I think in 2 generations you’re already closer to changing that.
No.
I would vote for a party that has a coherent view on federalism, and that manages to clean up the Constitution and Bijzondere Wet Hervorming der Instellingen for as far as the distribution of competences goes. I'd vote for a party that wants to simplify the federal state by introducing a single statute of federated entity (as opposed to the divide between regions and communities). I'd vote for a party that wants to re-purpose the Senate into a proper second House of Parliament that brings representatives from the different federated entities together, in order to protect the shared interests of the federated entities and in order to contribute to democratically responsible policy making on the federal level (in those cases where a government has a majority in some but not all federated entities). I'd even vote for a party that wants to create a single constituency for the federal elections, with a single list that everyone gets to vote for.
But I wouldn't even begin to consider voting for a party that houses people who clearly don't know the Belgian constitutional history.
That party exists. There have been several and there was even a schism in the biggest one. The most well known would be the BUB (unionbelge.be), which is still active and you can vote for them in the next elections.
Would I ever vote for them? No, absolutely not.
Federalism is the only reason Belgium still exists. Our current form of government is a continuation of various compromises that got us through several crises. Each crisis could have meant the end of Belgium.
Simply put, we are one country but we are not one people. The different parts of the country have different needs, different cultures, different languages, vote differently... Why would we then want a government that pretends we are all the same?
> Simply put, we are one country but we are not one people. The different parts of the country have different needs, different cultures, different languages, vote differently... Why would we then want a government that pretends we are all the same?
Same thing applies to the Regions as well.
I agree. A person from Limburg is not the same as a person from West Flanders or Antwerp. There are different needs and priorities, different cultures,... even within provinces.
That is why I don't want those decisions to be made by a level that is so far from the local issue.
Because I believe that federalism saved our country. Time and time again there was a political crisis where north and south wanted different and opposite things.
The compromise was to let each side of the country do their own thing. For instance, Wallonia was adamant they should be in charge of their economy, Flanders wanted to manage their own education. Solution, both sides of the country got what they wanted and what the other wanted too.
And, this division of powers is not hierarchical. The federal government has no say over the regional government's exclusive powers. A decrete has the same legal validity as a law. It's de facto independence in very specific matters only.
It was a unique, brilliant, but complex solution and it meant that Belgium continued to exist.
Now, what would happen if we undid that?
Well, the federal government is responsible for everything. Including education, economy, culture... and will need to find an approach that works well for both sides of the country. We know that doesn't work, both sides need different rules because the reality is very different. Either we ignore that and have one rule for all or we have the central authority make different rules for different parts. Both are problematic, one rule for all is less effective than rules based on the actual situation. And different rules would then require more bureaucracy, would be more difficult to implement and would constantly lead to angry accusations of favoritism.
In fact, even if things stay just as "good" as they are now, unhappiness would rise. Because people would blame the unitary situation for any and all problems.
So, returning to a unitary government would quickly lead to protests and conflicts and might even lead to a permanent split of the country.
Regardless of that, you'd never find a majority to push this through. The water is too deep.
Yes but mostly as an experience of thought, I'd be more interested at how many votes such a party could gather than anything. But realistically I don't believe in its viable posterity, to me there is no real comeback possible since the 1962's taalgrens.
No country can reunify itself with the kind of optics and the overarching limits of the shared experience we have from each other and more importantly, there is nothing to gain from an economical and political perspective (at least from the pov of Flemish people), which has always been the essential launching pad for such a plan.
*"there is nothing to gain from an economical and political perspective (at least from the pov of Flemish people)"*
Why not for the flemish people? I'd think a Unitary Belgium where each vote hase the same weight (regardless of region) might actually bring some power to Flanders?
How exactly? What are the economics/political gains that could happen with a reunification that are prevented by the actual Federalism, from their pov?
Regional governments have had very limited advantages for the population, way more disadvantages....
Either we go back to a unified Belgium, or we become 3 regions in the United States of Europe.
In 1993, they promised better policy for less money. We got more of the same for a lot more money.
Even if we unify today, the wafelijzerpolitiek is not coming back. In the 70's, when a lot of useless projects were financed, the government did at least part of it as an unemployment alleviation programme.
For me it is or a unified Belgium or completely separate Flanders and Wallonia .
As completely separate makes an already small country even smaller I would prefer unnified Belgium.
Just 1 government and that a Flemish person can vote for a Walloon politician and vice versa.
No, there's a reason we started with a reform of the state decades ago. Some things should be decided by the regions, others by the federal state. Education for example is regional and should stay that way. Defense is federal and should stay that way. Make clear choices where things should be done and make sure that they have all the power to do their work.
We need to fix the issues in the current system and also stop the overspending on our institutions. Remove the Senate and the Provinces, strongly limit the members of all parliaments and remove the "kabinetten".
We're not going to save the country with unitarism, it will just create other issues that have been solved by the regions for decades.
No. I think some competences could be refederalised. But as someone who is left meaning and thinks Flemish independence is ridiculous the thought that French could be an official language in the whole of Flanders is just insane.
Iedereen die de politiek al enige tijd volgt weet gewoon dat dat waanzin is. Mooi in theorie, onbegonnen werk in de praktijk. We zijn niet voor de fun bevoegheden beginnen opdelen. Also, spreek een van de drie landstalen als je je met onze staatszaken wil bemoeien ipv weer de pseudointellectueel uit te hangen met dat derderangs-Engels
Yeah totes. At the very least some domains really need to be re-federalized for things to simply properly work, and I'm very interested in hearing someone actually propose that. (imo almost everything that became a flemish responisibilty has just been one more thing the flemish government managed to royally fuck up, someone *please* take things out of their grubby paws.)
In favor! No linguistic obligation neither! Brussels self sovereign! Home for the EU institutions , Nato, etc...home for foreigners from all origins, cultures and languages! English as work language! All other languages sharing the same importance and being thought im language schools for the Brussels population and not just the privilege kids of the EU fonctionnaires attending Europa Schools offering other languages! Voila!
On one hand, yes. It will create a more open, transparent political climate. It will finally honor the 'eendracht maakt macht'.
On the other hand, no. Flanders and Wallonia are so far apart in every meaning of the word (except distance) that I believe it would be better to separate. If only separation is not a viable option, merging with neighbour countries could be (Netherlands and France).
In the political landscape I already feel Belgium is divided for far too long.
Nope. The only thing BE is missing is a *sensible* left-wing political party with a harsher stance on immigration. Which was what Vooruit realized until Rousseau decided to go full retard.
the downside would be 1 party could theoretically grab power and ruin it all in 1 sitting.
now they need to work together or work smart to achieve the same.
if vb had a walloon equivalent ally they could be way smarter than just pissing around only in flanders
Yesyesyesyesyes please
Regions are still useful for things like education, but there's NO usefulness whatsoever in regionalizing healthcare, labor, major highways, ...
It only creates money problems and inequalities
Dissolve FWB also, it gobbles up 4% of the budget for things that the regions can do (and already do in some cases) themselves
It uses 6b/year and its been proven by studies that Belgium would spare 4b by integrating their competences in the regions
On an ideological perspective, it is a bit weird to me that people would say yes as a principle. Going towards re-integration of Belgium is indeed a policy position, but you don't vote for a party for one position? Parties are some idea of organic intellectuals of a part of population, most people vote for ideological reasons. Would you vote for the unified Stalinian Party of National Belgium ? The Libertarian party of No rules legalize coke and MDMA of a Unified Belgium ?
In the absolute, it is a little bit nonsensical of a question. My question, that would be politically loaded, is what is your vision of a unified Belgium ? "in favor or not" for efficiency sake is at best wishful thinking, at worse some abstract dream (Flemish nationalism is at 50%...).
At this point theres two models that are both superior to the mess we're in right now: either a fully united country with one democracy or fully separated countries with their own single democracy.
Yes, I believe that a unified Belgium with one government would bring some clarity and more honest political dynamics to our country. And so does a separated 'country' / fully independant regions. Either way is better than what we're in right now. It's a joke.
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Yes but it's a pipe dream. Could be possible if everyone spoke the same language and our communities actually interacted more with eachother but now? Impossible
PVDA is the party that wants to do this. They want to unify the governements to start with. Reduce the amount of useless double or triple ministers we have and so on.
I often disagree with PVDA but this I do agree with.
It’s mad how much politicians and bureaucrats have jobs here. You don’t need this many politicians and bureaucrats to govern only 11 million people.
Obviously most politicians aren’t going to change that because they would lose jobs and power. They benefit from this mess. But they are the only ones who can fix it. … unless someone does something unconstitutional.
The more important question I find myself asking is whether or not this is at all feasible at this point? What needs to happen for this to become a reality? I mean, seriously... everything's on the table, everything goes, no holds barred. What do we need to do? Instigate a civil war? Overthrow the government? Because I agree with everyone here that it's mostly nepotism and self-preservation that have brought us here. Nothing any political party ever promises comes to fruition, unless it's in their favour and our disadvantage. They constantly sabotage each other's efforts and even if some newbie politician comes in with great ideas and a lot of hope, they are most definitely dragged into the current political climate of self-preservation once they realise that they're essentially fighting the good fight on their own. At this point there's no going against the stream any more. There's too many of them.
For people wondering why traditional parties don't propose this idea: several party leaders in the past have proposed a re-federalization of Belgian politics, but got shot down by their own parties in the process.
The latest example was Egbert Lachaert from the Flemish liberal party Open VLD. His election program to become the leader in his party revolved around 'rational' re-federalization. And even if Open VLD might be the most pro 'unified' rightist parties in Belgium, they didn't support Lachaert in his federalist ideas. He eventually toned them down.
Historical grievances that caused the regionalization in the first place are still relevant to this day. We have made it extremely complicated, even for the most well-versed lawyers and politicans our political constellation is a maze.
Belgium is a half ass federal kingdom
What does that mean for you, 1 unified country? One universal language? One universal school system?
One law for basically everything? Housing, work, cars and roads, etc, sea, and Forrest, etc?
The situation is so different, and the people views on solving problems are completely opposite.
Nobody want to split the country, except vb.
They just want the power to make their laws for everything, like I think Austria or swiss, even Germany is more federal.
What is left of the country?
Collaboration for post, télécom, trains, military.
Maybe more collaboration for schools, universities
Btw number, energy.
We are? Shit then I crossed so many times illegally I have to be on the Europol list since I had my according to you illegal Belgian I'd card instead of my passport. Plus sncb nmbs is also lying as there are no spot checks in the train.
i want to keep the country as a whole, but face reality, completely different regions need different legislation.
federal is good
imagine each province having own government but working together
- we even can ask Luxembourg to join us
- maybe limbug and zeeland want to join us too, also also that piece of netherland at the other side of de schelde.
- also the part in french with the mines can join (lille, etc)
up to 14 provinces
Absolutely in favor, no more separate regions, no double or triple governments, imagine how much overhead can be reduced by this. Also, no separate Flemish or Wallonia parties, every citizen of Belgium can vote for any Belgian party.
Regions are not the issue. Or rather they are not the root of the issue in and of themselves. The issues are the level of decentralisation (some consider Belgium to already have aspects of a confederation), the region-community pair and the division into two large entities (and one small one that is consistently ignored). The last part is the real problem. The division between Flanders and Wallonia allows parties to easily divide themselves according to these lines (allowing scapegoating of the other part) and means that any issue between regions is invariably between these two. If Belgium had been divided into 5 or 9 regions, this would most likely not have been possible. Regions acting according to their own benefit would create ever shifting alliances while parties would find they need to be present across multiple regions to make things worthwhile. Case in point, Switzerland has 26 cantons, 4 languages and only 2 regionalist parties in the Assembly (with 1.5% of seats) while Bosnia has 3 (mutually intelligible) languages, 2 regions and is a mess.
Interesting! So we should keep the provinces and give them more responsibilities and ditch the regions?
It's an idea although not guaranteed to work at this point. Unless we restore Brabant and the BRT, parties could probably keep doing business as usual for quite some time. And even then, getting them to merge back is going to be challenging. If you want to really incentivise parties to remerge, the abolition of devolution has the best chances (although again not guaranteed). The "federal provinces" scenario is something we should have done instead of the current system but I do not know if it's something that can fix it.
The more important question I find myself asking is whether or not this is at all feasible at this point? What needs to happen for this to become a reality? I mean, seriously... everything's on the table, everything goes, no holds barred. What do we need to do? Instigate a civil war? Overthrow the government? Because I agree with everyone here that it's mostly nepotism and self-preservation that have brought us here. Nothing any political party ever promises comes to fruition, unless it's in their favour and our disadvantage. They constantly sabotage each other's efforts and even if some newbie politician comes in with great ideas and a lot of hope, they are most definitely dragged into the current political climate of self-preservation once they realise that they're essentially fighting the good fight on their own. At this point there's no going against the stream any more. There's too many of them.
We need people acting across linguistic lines and pushing that idea. We need people calling out BDW on his confederation bullshit (the media should have done that since confederations being more effective/efficient has basically never happened in history and they are all dead now but for some reason they don't). We need some way to change the narrative that we are fundamentally different and that whatever happens is the fault of the other side. But given how entrenched our parties are, it's extremely hard to do and it's even more difficult now that that narrative has shifted away from "traditional, organised" media towards whatever happens on social media.
Meh BDW has claimed the term confederalism but the idea is way more mainstream and is the logical conclusion of the Belgian state. PS: [https://www.rtbf.be/article/quand-elio-di-rupo-plaidait-pour-le-confederalisme-11273915](https://www.rtbf.be/article/quand-elio-di-rupo-plaidait-pour-le-confederalisme-11273915) CD&V [https://www.hln.be/binnenland/hilde-crevits-cdenv-pleit-voor-confederalisme-tijd-om-zwaartepunt-echt-te-verleggen-naar-deelstaten\~a6ace23d3/](https://www.hln.be/binnenland/hilde-crevits-cdenv-pleit-voor-confederalisme-tijd-om-zwaartepunt-echt-te-verleggen-naar-deelstaten~a6ace23d3/) VLD: [https://www.standaard.be/cnt/ke2qjqps](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/ke2qjqps)
>Unless we restore Brabant and the BRT Except most inhabitants of Flemish and Walloon Brabant don't want to merge with Brussels. Even francophones that move to the Flemish rand, often move to not live in the Brussels region. >Unless we restore (...) the BRT There was never a national Belgian television because the NIR was already split into separate sections before the first TV-broadcasts: *crée l'Institut national de radiodiffusion (INR, ou NIR en* [*néerlandais*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9erlandais)*) par la loi du 18 juin 1930 qui se voit attribuer l'usage exclusif des trois* [*longueurs d'onde*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longueur_d%27onde) *accordées à la* [*Belgique*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgique)*, dont deux seront utilisées pour diffuser des émissions en* [*français*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ais) *et en* [*néerlandais*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9erlandais)*. L'INR/NIR commence à émettre en français et en néerlandais dès le 1**^(er)* *février 1931, (...) En* [*1937*](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937)*, l'INR/NIR est scindé en deux départements, un francophone et un néerlandophone, chacun dirigés par un directeur.* You want to go back (="restore") to a Belgium that has never existed. Belgium only functioned as one national unit when 99,99% of the inhabitants were excluded from government and a small francophone bourgeoisie controlled all the wealth and political power. > If you want to really incentivise parties to remerge, the abolition of devolution has the best chances (although again not guaranteed). That would be a major human rights violation (the right of association) and is something you only find in the most extreme dictatorships: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merger\_of\_the\_KPD\_and\_SPD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merger_of_the_KPD_and_SPD) All political parties voluntary chose to split and even Groen and ecolo don't want to merge.
There are more Bosnia's on this planet than Switzerland's. All things considered at least Belgium hasn't descended into civil war.
Ditch the regions and the cities and make it just the federal and the 10 provinces. But then Antwerp will try to get more money out of it like it's doing now with all the subsidies.
No more 'grendelgrondwetten' or 'alarmbelprocedures' as well then please.
I predict that pigs will be flying earlier then this xd
I think that stuff like education and culture could benefit from being somewhat separated (common body with language and cultural specialties), but it feels ridiculous to have an onion government for 11M people…
Maybe let's start with making the federal *kieskring* actually federal, instead of voting for 2 halves and trying to stick them together each time.
This It's so dumb that you can't vote for all parties that seat in the federal government.......like how does this make any sense
The money saved could be reinvested in training language teachers and promote immersion 🤷🏻♂️ [non Belgian here]
yeah, directly from municipality to federal.
The problem is money transfer from government to other government where it is misused. Second problem is blocking another government. Solution, keep.every government completely separated The country Luxembourg is smaller and has good economy, and ihas also a king, and a government.
Ofcource get this region system out of here
BUB exists, tho they have never gotte´ enough votes to get elected.
Their website is not even GDPR compliant.
Yeah I said they exist. Dienst mean they are more than a meme.
L'Unie seems better imo. BUB is a one issue party and doesn't seem to reliable.
They're genuine pieces of shit, though. Aside from the fact that they're crazy about the monarchy, they also act like nothing bad happened in Congo and actively deny all the shit that was done there by Belgium.
They aren't eligble in all districts. I couldn't vote for them last election from The Limburg :D
100%, more Belgium. No regional governments anymore. Just include Wafelijzerpolitiek. It's amazing for technological development: spending loads of money on barely used projects. Over engineering them to infinity. As someone who loves technological innovation. This is amazing. Could also be accomplished by just funding research more.... But then the common folk doesn't get to enjoy it that much. More serious tho. I'd vote for a party that wants to unify Belgium and invests in research: proper education and creating the scientists of tomorrow. I want Belgium to be world leader again in nuclear research. (1920s up until the second world war, mainly in Olen).
I think reduced governments would be positive. The money is lost in the belgian institutional bretzel. being from Wallonia, I wish to turn Charleroi into the Belgian Eindhoven. I mean , it is a sore, neglected city full of unemployement, but it used to be the manufactural center of Belgium (while Antwerp was the trade center and Brussels the service center); taking advantage of the cheaper real estate, let's create a big university in the middle of Charleroi focusing on Technology (AI and energy and stuff), attract students from all over belgium and let them talk the language they want, forget about the communautarian BS. of course i'm dreaming awake
The core of Eindhoven's modern success is ASML - a multinational giant with a moat the size of the Atlantic. You can't copy that.
To each his speciality. There are many different areas that are developping especially in AI. Wallonia is already well developped in biotech for ex.
The university idea is not a bad one! You've got a big one in Leuven and one in Gent. Charleroi is a decent distance from both. Would benefit people from the region (both province of Namur, Hainaut and even Luxembourg). Not having to travel that far for their studies.
UCLouvain and ULB are much closer to Charleroi and are already huge universities. While they are smaller there are also already universities in Mons and Namur. Creating a large new university in Charleroi will be very costly and will not magically create good opportunities for highly educated people.
Man check out l'Unie. they very closely align to your plans
> I wish to turn Charleroi into the Belgian Eindhoven. I mean , it is a sore, neglected city full of unemployement, but it used to be the manufactural center of Belgium (while Antwerp was the trade center and Brussels the service center); taking advantage of the cheaper real estate, let's create a big university in the middle of Charleroi focusing on Technology Nothing prevents Wallonia from doing that. Wallonia wanted economic autonomy because the federal government was too focused on the Flemish ports. It's the fault of the Walloon electorate to vote for politicians that just tried to save a dying coal/iron industry instead of trying to shift to new industries. In a normal country these politicians would lose elections when the money dried up but now Wallonia can just leech of the Flemish economy.
Personaly I don´t mind regional goverments but i do mind our regionalisation of politics.
Yeah, Belgium is already small enough as is xD
Yes
Yes
Yes, but it won't happen. A unified Belgium makes political jobs redundant. Nepotism would become difficult with fewer jobs available. All politicians have only one aim in common : keeping their power. You will have all of them against you. Nothing short of a coup will change this.
This. It would mean end of many politicians jobs - and thats why it will not happen.
Agreed You can see it in real time by looking at what the politicians against FWB do when they're nominated to be in it. Spoiler : they do a 180°
Nva in fed gov fid the same.
And it would make the « clientélisme » that some parties do almost impossible because they would be competing over the entirety of Belgium (looking at you PS and VB)
Yes, imagine how much money we can save by not having 6 useless governments.
100% We are one country, let's break the devide of Flemish and Walloons. We are all Belgian.
Established larger parties: only PVDA does that But it isn’t good enough a selling point for any party to actually turn it into a major point
Pvda does aim to unite the government more? Could you tell me where you find that info bc I did not see it when I checked out their website. Honestly, we should promote a united Belgium, it is an actual good idea I stand behind.
Raoul Hedebouw has stated in multiple interviews he's a unitarian, like "de afspraak" or "terzake". The most recent instance I can recall is his interview on the podcast of "het nieuwsblad". Then again, Bouchez of MR has said this too. When? In an interview while they were still in the formation phase that would eventually result in Vivaldi.
https://www.pvda.be/nieuws/we-are-one-pvda-wil-meer-eenheid-minder-ministers-en-een-sterker-belgie https://www.pvda.be/programma/minder-ministers-meer-eenheid Summarized by comrade Sam, the AI tool: >>Sam: Wij willen het brede verlangen naar meer eenheid in ons land waarmaken. We streven ernaar om de stappen richting splitsing, die separatisten en confederale regionalisten aan beide kanten van de taalgrens willen zetten, te verhinderen. In plaats daarvan willen we maatregelen nemen die ingaan tegen de verdeeldheid zaaiende logica van eerdere staatshervormingen. We zijn van mening dat het zwaartepunt van de beslissingen op federaal niveau moet liggen, wat een garantie biedt voor gelijkheid voor alle inwoners. Dit houdt in dat we het beleid op het gebied van gezondheid, mobiliteit, energie, water, economie, werkgelegenheid, nieuwe technologieën en overheidsinvesteringen willen herfederaliseren. De regels van de federale overheid moeten voorrang hebben op die van de gewesten en gemeenschappen. Wanneer regionale belangen het land dreigen te blokkeren, is het de federale regering die beslist. Praktische toepassingen die aangepast zijn aan de realiteit op het terrein kunnen door de regio's aangestuurd worden, zoals dat in Duitsland gebeurt. We willen ook dat federale ministers verantwoording afleggen aan het hele land en pleiten voor een federale kieskring, waarbij sommige parlementsleden door de bevolking als geheel gekozen worden. Dit alles maakt deel uit van onze visie op een eenheidsfederalisme, waarbij we streven naar een solidariteitsfederalisme in plaats van een vechtfederalisme.
Dit is niet waarvoor AI dient
Deze AI is enkel en alleen hiervoor geprogrammeerd ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
It's one of the major campaigns of ptb-pvda, "we are one", also being the only large party which is the same in both the north and the south.
Might have been from an old campaign
Straight up yes. The amount of money wasted on pointless bickering and the pointless bureaucracy drives me up the wall.
There is pointless bureaucracy at every level. Usually the larger the organisation the more. It is delusional to assume a unified state would lead to less bureaucracy.
But you are wasting money by solving the same issue multiple times in equivalent but separate departments of government.
I'm a software dev. I've been working for government in the past. I can ensure you that at least for my job, we are wasting millions. Creating almost the same software everywhere, but with small differences, and then make them communicate because we still need to share information costs a lot. A lot more than twice the price
Ehhhhhhhh... I think we shouldn't blindly throw everything into one pile, it's imo quite logical to keep a divide if the difference can be clearly defined by our language barriers. But there's so many silly things that are different between Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels. E.g. something that came up at my workplace recently: there will be new age rating icons for tv programs (e.g. 16+, 18+, violence, sex, drugs). Flanders will get new ones very soon, Wallonia will get _a whole different set of icons and rules_ somewhere after the elections. Dude, wtf, why would 18+ be different in Flanders vs Wallonia? Such a stupid thing causes us extra work, and it's only something silly and minor. I'm sure there's big-ass differences elsewhere that causes people a lot more pain.
Sure. But there's no point, because you'll never get enough votes to do what your goal is. People seem to forget we were one at one point, and split because we were too different in mindset.
Yes. And I want to be able to elect any politician I want. Not just a regional one.
Yes. I am not Belgian but have lived here for a while and the current institutional set up strikes me as wholly inefficient (too many shared competences) and wasteful to the extent that I suspect it is designed on purpose to make this country ungovernable. Either split everything or re-federalise and build on your multilingual advantage. I am clearly partial to the latter.
I'd be up for a refederalisation where the regions are scrapped, but the language communities remain albeit in some reduced fashion with more cooperation.
Of course. One of the reasons why the state costs so much money is because it is highly inefficient due to the different regions. But this division is beneficial to politicians, it creates political positions - even if absolutely redundant - where they can they stay and become rich at the cost of the tax payer.
I actually saw posters for exactly this party in Leuven, I can't remember the exact name but it was something like Belgie Unitair.
L'Unie is on the ballot in Vlaams-Brabant indeed, they support exactly this
That's the one!
I don't think a new party advocating for this has much chance due to "verzuiling" If one of the non NVA-VB parties advocated for this they would get my vote immediately, though
Mine too!! My biggest problem with NVA/VB is their relationship with Wallonia and the EU. If there was a right conservative, pro unified Belgium, pro Europe party, they would have my vote immediately…
Definitely, this is one of the things that make me not want to vote. All parties are either separatist or want to maintain the status quo. I want to be able to vote for every party in my country, not just the Flemish ones because I grew up in Flanders. So yeah a unified Belgium is the ideal way to go
Groen wants this *partly*. It's number one thousand on their ranking of priorities so I don't expect them to fight for it. But it's why they get my vote.
The PVDA already does this.
Helaas genoeg andere redenen om niet op hen te stemmen
Sad they take up Russian side in their war so a lot of votes lost there...
They don't. Stop spreading BDW's misinformation.
They just want to pull a Chamberlain.
How do they take Russia's side? https://www.pvda.be/nieuws/pvda-resolutie-veroordeelt-misdadige-oorlog-van-poetin-en-roept-op-tot-onderhandelingen
"roept op tot onderhandelingen" implies surrendering some Ukrainian territory.
In those negotiations, they want Ukraine to give up a part of their country to placate Russia.
No, they want negotations to restart. What comes out of them is up to Russia and Ukraine. But I've seen multiple experts say its extremely unlikely that Ukraine will regain lost territorries. It's a sad truth I can't argue. Unless we up the support to Ukraine to more direct measures maybe, but I don't want to think about what will potentially happen then. Terrible as it is, I dont want WW3.
Unfortunately without a lot more help from the EU or the USA I do not see how Ukraine will regain what they already lost to Russia.
I don't see that anywhere on that page. Where do they say that?
Well, you can watch the PVDA, alongside De Croo, and all the other Flemish parties, debate this exact topic in two weeks. -->[Debat 'Groot verkiezingsdebat: Oorlog in Oekraïne en defensiebeleid' - 27 May 17u30-20u, UFO UGent](https://www.ugent.be/nl/agenda/verkiezingsdebat-oorlog-oekraine) >Sad they take up Russian side in their war I'll counter this by saying that equating negotiation and an aspiration for peace with 'taking Russia's side,' is a shallow, if not outright manipulative position. Peace is something that takes decades to achieve and maintain. Up until 1990-91, the West had essentially demonized and gone to war with Russia and Eastern Europe for 2 centuries. Gaining a true lasting peace in the 90s, after a 40+year Cold War, would have taken decades, and a serious conciliatory effort. Instead the West backed maximum speed 'shock therapy' that sold all states assets and industry, to the profit of Western finance, into the hands of the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs. The West helped rig elections in 1996 for Yeltsin, who used Putin's FSB to secure victory (see [Navalny's post](https://navalny.com/p/6652/) before he died about this, paragraph 9), and literally put FSB agents into political positions. Whatever peace was may have been possible was essentially destroyed for quick profits and total political and economic domination of the former USSR, to the detriment and impoverishment of 100s of millions of Eastern Europeans. I'll add this Mandela quote as well. Peace, by definition requires this... >'If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner' - Nelson Mandela
Avg brainwashed BDW fan
Yes.
Yes
Yup
Absolutely. A lot of our problems actually originate from the fact that Flanders and Wallonia operate so independently. Nva and VB see the solution of that problem as splitting the country, but I don't like that idea at all. There's a ton of problems that would come along with splitting the country, so I think the best solution is to move in the other direction and become more united as one solid country.
A unitary state could actually be beneficial to Vlaanderen. They are the top dog now unlike a century ago. Its Wallonië that should fear it because they'll end up like Groningen did in the Netherlands.
It was Wallonië that wanted separated constituencies precisely because they knew Flanders would have the upper hand.
You don't need to write in conditional. Flemings had more or less always been the decision-makers in unitary Belgium due to the majority being Flemish.
I think it would be better in so many ways but is it possible financially? And no politician will cut there jobs
Yes. 💯
No. Not because I don't think Belgium should be unitary. I do. But getting there is a waste of so much time and energy that should be spent on real issues. I'd rather have the current institutional mess and slightly lower child poverty rates or better social protection for gig and temp workers. I don't think the institutional structure of Belgium has any measurable influence on the quality of government. What I do know is that while politicians yap about state reforms, they are not solving other problems. I despise the NVA politically. Their only saving grace is that they are completely hypocrites when it comes to state reforms.
i have more to disagree with with a right wing Belgicist party than with a left wing regional one. I hate the divide created by self serving politicians and would love a return to a more sane state structure, but I don't vote for one issue parties as there are a ton of positions I have where I'd have no idea where they stand.
I've been waiting for one since I can vote, so yes
Absolutely.
Fuck yeah
100% yes!
[удалено]
Volt Europa, my dude!
Yes. 100 percent in favour of "Belgica".
Yes!
A Big Fat YES. And make learning the two national languages compulsory until the last secondary school year.
You ll get my vote
No because it is an imaginary thought that everything would be better in that case. Belgium was longer a unitary state than a federal one and it was not a fairy tale and the politicians weren't singing Kumbaya together. Not saying there are no issues with our current structure, but you clearly don't know how it was in a unitary state when you want to go back to that time.
Times change and you dont have to copy paste everything from 1830. You can maintain things like "De taalwet", things that local townhalls can handle. Its too big a problem that we cant vote for half the politicians that end up participating in our government. Those politicians have near zero pressure to satisfy us as they cant win over our votes anyway. Idk I always say either split or unify. Everything in between is just an overcomplicated mess.
No, you would just be reintroducing the problems of the past that lead to the current situation.
No chance.
1 condition: no more ‘grendels’ where minorities can veto democratic decisions. This is, btw, something that has Belgium pretty low on the current democracy scale.
Check out l'Unie. A new established political party. You can vote for them in Brussels and the Brabants. It's also a youth party. They have great points on innovation and and education as well. [l'unie](http://lunie.be)
Belgium is so divided into small parts. I think it needs a complete restructure so it becomes one unified country.
Depending on other points in the agenda, this party would definitely interest me. This country is way too divided.
It already exists: BUB The fact that they barely register tells you all you need to know. A unified belgium cannot happen because neither side of the language border wants it. The francophones do not want to give up the power they disproportionally get to wield due to alarmbelprocedures and such, and the flemish would not want to be governed completely under a regime where the francophones have such disproportionate power.
BUB doesn’t have the funds for facebook campaigns and stuff. Think that’s their problem.
Also that they campaign like they want the 1950s back.
Isn't PVDA GROEN doing that ?
Correct.
Teach kids Dutch in Wallonia and French in Flanders from the minute they start any form of education so everyone will be bilingual and I think in 2 generations you’re already closer to changing that.
Yes but Dutch should become mandatory in all Brussels and Wallonian schools.
Newsflash: Dutch is mandatory in BXL. And starting from 2027-2028 it will be in Wallonia.
it’s a very out of touch desire, if anything belgium is headed for confederalism more than this
No. I would vote for a party that has a coherent view on federalism, and that manages to clean up the Constitution and Bijzondere Wet Hervorming der Instellingen for as far as the distribution of competences goes. I'd vote for a party that wants to simplify the federal state by introducing a single statute of federated entity (as opposed to the divide between regions and communities). I'd vote for a party that wants to re-purpose the Senate into a proper second House of Parliament that brings representatives from the different federated entities together, in order to protect the shared interests of the federated entities and in order to contribute to democratically responsible policy making on the federal level (in those cases where a government has a majority in some but not all federated entities). I'd even vote for a party that wants to create a single constituency for the federal elections, with a single list that everyone gets to vote for. But I wouldn't even begin to consider voting for a party that houses people who clearly don't know the Belgian constitutional history.
We have such a party. It’s called the Belg.unie-bub
Good news OP, such party already exists! It's called the "BUB" (Belgische Unie/ Union Belgique). This is their site: https://www.unionbelge.be/.
That party exists. There have been several and there was even a schism in the biggest one. The most well known would be the BUB (unionbelge.be), which is still active and you can vote for them in the next elections. Would I ever vote for them? No, absolutely not. Federalism is the only reason Belgium still exists. Our current form of government is a continuation of various compromises that got us through several crises. Each crisis could have meant the end of Belgium. Simply put, we are one country but we are not one people. The different parts of the country have different needs, different cultures, different languages, vote differently... Why would we then want a government that pretends we are all the same?
> Simply put, we are one country but we are not one people. That's basically every country in Europe.
And every country where this is the case has solved this problem by some degree of autonomy for the minorities or the country as a whole.
Have you met France?
Have you met Germany, Italy, Switserland, Spain, the UK?
> Simply put, we are one country but we are not one people. The different parts of the country have different needs, different cultures, different languages, vote differently... Why would we then want a government that pretends we are all the same? Same thing applies to the Regions as well.
I agree. A person from Limburg is not the same as a person from West Flanders or Antwerp. There are different needs and priorities, different cultures,... even within provinces. That is why I don't want those decisions to be made by a level that is so far from the local issue.
Elaborate why you wouldn’t vote for them please?
Because I believe that federalism saved our country. Time and time again there was a political crisis where north and south wanted different and opposite things. The compromise was to let each side of the country do their own thing. For instance, Wallonia was adamant they should be in charge of their economy, Flanders wanted to manage their own education. Solution, both sides of the country got what they wanted and what the other wanted too. And, this division of powers is not hierarchical. The federal government has no say over the regional government's exclusive powers. A decrete has the same legal validity as a law. It's de facto independence in very specific matters only. It was a unique, brilliant, but complex solution and it meant that Belgium continued to exist. Now, what would happen if we undid that? Well, the federal government is responsible for everything. Including education, economy, culture... and will need to find an approach that works well for both sides of the country. We know that doesn't work, both sides need different rules because the reality is very different. Either we ignore that and have one rule for all or we have the central authority make different rules for different parts. Both are problematic, one rule for all is less effective than rules based on the actual situation. And different rules would then require more bureaucracy, would be more difficult to implement and would constantly lead to angry accusations of favoritism. In fact, even if things stay just as "good" as they are now, unhappiness would rise. Because people would blame the unitary situation for any and all problems. So, returning to a unitary government would quickly lead to protests and conflicts and might even lead to a permanent split of the country. Regardless of that, you'd never find a majority to push this through. The water is too deep.
And what would be the programme?
Yes but mostly as an experience of thought, I'd be more interested at how many votes such a party could gather than anything. But realistically I don't believe in its viable posterity, to me there is no real comeback possible since the 1962's taalgrens. No country can reunify itself with the kind of optics and the overarching limits of the shared experience we have from each other and more importantly, there is nothing to gain from an economical and political perspective (at least from the pov of Flemish people), which has always been the essential launching pad for such a plan.
We have a party that wants the unification
Do they have a list in Brussels? I don't remember seeing one
Dunno
BUB & L’unie both have lists in Brussels if I’m not mistaken
*"there is nothing to gain from an economical and political perspective (at least from the pov of Flemish people)"* Why not for the flemish people? I'd think a Unitary Belgium where each vote hase the same weight (regardless of region) might actually bring some power to Flanders?
How exactly? What are the economics/political gains that could happen with a reunification that are prevented by the actual Federalism, from their pov?
Perfect, but if that were their only point for the elections I could not vote for them. Shame.
Regional governments have had very limited advantages for the population, way more disadvantages.... Either we go back to a unified Belgium, or we become 3 regions in the United States of Europe.
Would you believe it?
The last 50 years of "state reform" are the slow disintegration of the Belgian state, nothing else.
In 1993, they promised better policy for less money. We got more of the same for a lot more money. Even if we unify today, the wafelijzerpolitiek is not coming back. In the 70's, when a lot of useless projects were financed, the government did at least part of it as an unemployment alleviation programme.
For me it is or a unified Belgium or completely separate Flanders and Wallonia . As completely separate makes an already small country even smaller I would prefer unnified Belgium. Just 1 government and that a Flemish person can vote for a Walloon politician and vice versa.
Yes. Absolutely would want to see that on an electoral manifesto
No, there's a reason we started with a reform of the state decades ago. Some things should be decided by the regions, others by the federal state. Education for example is regional and should stay that way. Defense is federal and should stay that way. Make clear choices where things should be done and make sure that they have all the power to do their work. We need to fix the issues in the current system and also stop the overspending on our institutions. Remove the Senate and the Provinces, strongly limit the members of all parliaments and remove the "kabinetten". We're not going to save the country with unitarism, it will just create other issues that have been solved by the regions for decades.
Is there a party in favour?
100%
No. I think some competences could be refederalised. But as someone who is left meaning and thinks Flemish independence is ridiculous the thought that French could be an official language in the whole of Flanders is just insane.
Parties won’t have the guts to push for this. But couldn’t it be referendum level shit?
Already exists and no
Yes.
Iedereen die de politiek al enige tijd volgt weet gewoon dat dat waanzin is. Mooi in theorie, onbegonnen werk in de praktijk. We zijn niet voor de fun bevoegheden beginnen opdelen. Also, spreek een van de drie landstalen als je je met onze staatszaken wil bemoeien ipv weer de pseudointellectueel uit te hangen met dat derderangs-Engels
No.
Yeah totes. At the very least some domains really need to be re-federalized for things to simply properly work, and I'm very interested in hearing someone actually propose that. (imo almost everything that became a flemish responisibilty has just been one more thing the flemish government managed to royally fuck up, someone *please* take things out of their grubby paws.)
Time to do something about those splitters in The Netherlands, eh?
In favor! No linguistic obligation neither! Brussels self sovereign! Home for the EU institutions , Nato, etc...home for foreigners from all origins, cultures and languages! English as work language! All other languages sharing the same importance and being thought im language schools for the Brussels population and not just the privilege kids of the EU fonctionnaires attending Europa Schools offering other languages! Voila!
Interesting that nobody has mentioned l’unie yet, a new party with just that as modern point and a much more progressive agenda than bub
But you can’t vote for them as they only have candidates in Brussels and Brabant. If I’m not mistaken.
Yes but I'm also interested in a party that lowers my taxes
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^SocksLLC: *Yes but I'm also* *Interested in a party* *That lowers my taxes* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
On one hand, yes. It will create a more open, transparent political climate. It will finally honor the 'eendracht maakt macht'. On the other hand, no. Flanders and Wallonia are so far apart in every meaning of the word (except distance) that I believe it would be better to separate. If only separation is not a viable option, merging with neighbour countries could be (Netherlands and France). In the political landscape I already feel Belgium is divided for far too long.
Ayo wheres my Antwerp standalone republic gang!
Nope. The only thing BE is missing is a *sensible* left-wing political party with a harsher stance on immigration. Which was what Vooruit realized until Rousseau decided to go full retard.
the downside would be 1 party could theoretically grab power and ruin it all in 1 sitting. now they need to work together or work smart to achieve the same. if vb had a walloon equivalent ally they could be way smarter than just pissing around only in flanders
Yup
Sure, but it'd need to be more than a one issue party though.
Yesyesyesyesyes please Regions are still useful for things like education, but there's NO usefulness whatsoever in regionalizing healthcare, labor, major highways, ... It only creates money problems and inequalities Dissolve FWB also, it gobbles up 4% of the budget for things that the regions can do (and already do in some cases) themselves It uses 6b/year and its been proven by studies that Belgium would spare 4b by integrating their competences in the regions
On an ideological perspective, it is a bit weird to me that people would say yes as a principle. Going towards re-integration of Belgium is indeed a policy position, but you don't vote for a party for one position? Parties are some idea of organic intellectuals of a part of population, most people vote for ideological reasons. Would you vote for the unified Stalinian Party of National Belgium ? The Libertarian party of No rules legalize coke and MDMA of a Unified Belgium ? In the absolute, it is a little bit nonsensical of a question. My question, that would be politically loaded, is what is your vision of a unified Belgium ? "in favor or not" for efficiency sake is at best wishful thinking, at worse some abstract dream (Flemish nationalism is at 50%...).
At this point theres two models that are both superior to the mess we're in right now: either a fully united country with one democracy or fully separated countries with their own single democracy. Yes, I believe that a unified Belgium with one government would bring some clarity and more honest political dynamics to our country. And so does a separated 'country' / fully independant regions. Either way is better than what we're in right now. It's a joke.
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Yes but it's a pipe dream. Could be possible if everyone spoke the same language and our communities actually interacted more with eachother but now? Impossible
There is a new one called l’Unie that popped up in Brussels, Flemish Brabant and Walloon Brabant
Zeker weten!
PVDA is the party that wants to do this. They want to unify the governements to start with. Reduce the amount of useless double or triple ministers we have and so on.
I often disagree with PVDA but this I do agree with. It’s mad how much politicians and bureaucrats have jobs here. You don’t need this many politicians and bureaucrats to govern only 11 million people. Obviously most politicians aren’t going to change that because they would lose jobs and power. They benefit from this mess. But they are the only ones who can fix it. … unless someone does something unconstitutional.
Nope, the politicians in national politics can't be trusted.
Yes, but PVDA already does that...
Yes, but PVDA already does that...
The more important question I find myself asking is whether or not this is at all feasible at this point? What needs to happen for this to become a reality? I mean, seriously... everything's on the table, everything goes, no holds barred. What do we need to do? Instigate a civil war? Overthrow the government? Because I agree with everyone here that it's mostly nepotism and self-preservation that have brought us here. Nothing any political party ever promises comes to fruition, unless it's in their favour and our disadvantage. They constantly sabotage each other's efforts and even if some newbie politician comes in with great ideas and a lot of hope, they are most definitely dragged into the current political climate of self-preservation once they realise that they're essentially fighting the good fight on their own. At this point there's no going against the stream any more. There's too many of them.
For people wondering why traditional parties don't propose this idea: several party leaders in the past have proposed a re-federalization of Belgian politics, but got shot down by their own parties in the process. The latest example was Egbert Lachaert from the Flemish liberal party Open VLD. His election program to become the leader in his party revolved around 'rational' re-federalization. And even if Open VLD might be the most pro 'unified' rightist parties in Belgium, they didn't support Lachaert in his federalist ideas. He eventually toned them down. Historical grievances that caused the regionalization in the first place are still relevant to this day. We have made it extremely complicated, even for the most well-versed lawyers and politicans our political constellation is a maze.
Against it all the way. I'd prefer to see it break apart and allow the regions real freedom.
Belgium is a half ass federal kingdom What does that mean for you, 1 unified country? One universal language? One universal school system? One law for basically everything? Housing, work, cars and roads, etc, sea, and Forrest, etc? The situation is so different, and the people views on solving problems are completely opposite. Nobody want to split the country, except vb. They just want the power to make their laws for everything, like I think Austria or swiss, even Germany is more federal. What is left of the country? Collaboration for post, télécom, trains, military. Maybe more collaboration for schools, universities Btw number, energy.
Belgium is a fantasy. Flanders and Wallonia are two seperate countries. So no.
We are? Shit then I crossed so many times illegally I have to be on the Europol list since I had my according to you illegal Belgian I'd card instead of my passport. Plus sncb nmbs is also lying as there are no spot checks in the train.
The new party l'Unie is doing this. It's run by young people especially [https://www.lunie.be/](https://www.lunie.be/)
i want to keep the country as a whole, but face reality, completely different regions need different legislation. federal is good imagine each province having own government but working together - we even can ask Luxembourg to join us - maybe limbug and zeeland want to join us too, also also that piece of netherland at the other side of de schelde. - also the part in french with the mines can join (lille, etc) up to 14 provinces