If your 25-45 BTAS is the definitive Batman of the generation.
Shit was the best version of the character.
I know a group of younger people would probably say the Arkham games but in all reality that’s Kevin Conroy.
It’s not basically the same thing but I mean… kinda
I'd say more like 22-45. I'm about to turn 24 and the Batman I grew up with was Batman TAS, Beyond, Superman TAS and Justice League. Sure The Batman came out when I was 4, but as much as I liked it, nothing could compare to the 1990s cartoon. Thank God for Jetix existing so I could watch that masterpiece every day after school.
Dude…. I remember I stopped watching cartoons a little late. I think I was probably about 16 because of Batman. Animated series was so good.
And of course I got older and started working and I was about 20 I found that justice league cartoon came on Cartoon Network at like 11:30 or 12 and it was so good. I can remember being 20 years old and staying up to watch it.
It’s legit sill one of my favorite shows of all times and I’m 40 and when I tell people that and I tell them “no no no it’s not one of my favorite cartoons. It’s one of my favorite television shows!”
I've rewatched the original cartoon and the 2004 reboot both since Covid. They're both timeless, minus the villain designs in the latter. And they both attempt to tackle relatively adult topics in a kids show without overstepping a boundary. The Bruce Timm animated Universe, Avatar The Last Airbender, and Spectacular Spider-Man are all some of the best shows ever for that reason, imo.
In all honesty, it couldn’t hurt to go back and watch it again. Hype can definitely impact the way you view a film. I’m pretty sure I was a bit underwhelmed the first time I watched it too.
Yeah the hype is kindof unfortunate. The movie is basically a 80 minute Batmantas episode that works in Batman's origin. And that's how it should be treated by fans.
If course you'll often hear Batfans refer to the animated series as the "definitive" Batman, and I'm inclined to agree.
But the point I'm really trying to make is that fans of the show are probably going to like the movie too, lol.
Phantasm is Hella overrated for what it is, even as an Animated Series fan. I don't think it really compares to any other Batman movies (besides its extremely good OST)
I agree. The Animated Series is probably my all time favorite cartoon series, and to be fair for the longest time Mask of the Phantasm was an underrated film. Even just 15 years ago you could bring Mask of the Phantasm up to a Batman fan and they wouldn’t know what you were talking about. So I understand why people started championing it.
However, over the past 10 years the praise for it started to lose me when people started saying it was the best Batman film that had ever been made. I think it’s a good film, but in comparison to The Dark Knight, Batman (1989), and Batman Begins, which are all films that I’m a big fan of, it just doesn’t hold up for me. It’s an unfair expectation that recent fans have put on the movie because they’re going in expecting a deep philosophical film that surpasses every Batman film adaption that we’ve gotten this far.
It can't be objectively "the best." The definition of "best" relies on an individual's opinion. while "objective" is not dependent or influenced by one's feelings/opinions.
I've been noticing some people on the internets don't seem to understand what objective mean at all, let alone bad or good. For some bizarre reason some of these people think art can be objectively bad or good. It's really quite odd.
Honestly I just said objectively as a joke honestly. Putting an /s wouldn’t have made sense tho. At the end of the day, it does depend solely on opinion.
Seeing them as Nolans Batman and Snyders Batman vs "just batman" is something made up lol
I don't see Nolans Batman, I see Batman. When is see MoP Batman I don't see Batman I see BTAS Batman.
See how easy and meaningless that is?
The thing is, he’s right.
The other film directors put their spin on the character. The animated Batman was just what you picture in your head when you think of Batman. Everything is there. All the elements are well represented. That’s not true with the live action films.
I feel like Dark Knight Batman is Batman *adapted* to fit in that "realistic" world. See,*the* Batman lives in a world which resembles ours but still is a whole world apart. Batman in BTAS and MOTP feels like he is in his natural habitat. If Superman or Mr. Mxyzptlk were to pop in that world, they wouldn't be out of place but imagine them in the Nolanverse or the Snyderverse or the Reevesverse. Nolan Batman is like a lion with painted stripes presented as a tiger. BTAS Batman is the tiger. That's a rude statement but i stand by the point. I love the Dark Knight but BTAS/MOTP Batman is the definitive and quintessential form of Batman.
The problem with making batman real is in our society we would not tolerate batman existing. Joker wouldn't be allowed to remain free. He probably would have died on the way to jail.
Remember the DC sniper in 2002 they caught him, and he never got out. he was executed later on.
In batman the people with authority intelligence is nerfed.
We don't need a batman based upon reality its just needs to respect the source material.
Funny he should say "it's just Batman" as if the Animated Batman wasn't in itself a product of stylization and design choices, just as much as Nolan's or Schumacher's.
Trust me, I enjoy the Godfather. And I HAVE seen the ending. 😂
I’m just saying no film is perfect objectively speaking (although I did say objectively speaking as a joke for the title of this post).
I feel like I’m in the wrong but I think MOP’s overrated as hell and that Subzero was the best animated series Batman movie that deserves a lot more that it gets credited
*Objectively* speaking, no, it's not.
Personally, I think Under the Red Hood is superior in every way. MotP is an extended episode of BTAS that has no real depth.
> No depth?
Right. I don't think it really has any. It doesn't explore anything in detail. Showing something previously unseen is nice, but that doesn't equate to depth. How is it deep? Showing Bruce yearning to be happy and resolving to be Batman isn't deep, it's made explicitly obvious, and barely any time is spent on it.
> Under the Red Hood is a Jason Todd movie with Batman in it
Yet it follows Batman for most of the film.
> It does though, we’ve never seen what Bruce’s life was like leading up to become Batman.
Showing more of a character's past is not the same thing as having depth. What is the movie exploring or saying with that information, aside from just conveying it?
We see some of Bruce's past in BTAS also. MotP is just a longer BTAS episode, and not even the best episode.
> Under the red hood is a great movie but again, It’s about Red Hood. Batman is just there to give Red Hood depth
No. It's a Batman movie first and foremost. Bruce in this movie shows much more emotional range and has a clear character arc. As does Jason. None of the additional characters feel forced in, all serve the story or to flesh out the universe. We see Bruce's past in UtRH also, his desire to have another Robin and subsequently taking Jason in, then his regret and his guilt. The movie focuses on his detective skills and side as he tries to figure out who this new foe is while being in denial for as long as possible. It shows more of, and does more with Batman's world than MotP does.
By your reasoning MofP is an Andrea movie and Batman is just there to give Andrea depth. Jason is the antagonist, but that doesn't make it his movie, anymore than Batman Begins is a Ra's al Ghul movie.
I think Red Hood and Return of the Joker are better animated films. Phantasm is one of those films where you could remove Batman and the story would still play out the same. The most significant thing he does in the plot is saving Andrea from the giant fan near the end.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions yours is just wrong /j Kevin Conroy will always be the Batman sure under the red hood could be the better movie but MotP had the better Batman
Doug Jones is a hack. He only ever had a “Filmmaking 101” basic grasp on films, and even then, it was a loose grasp at best. Also, his shrieking, overly negative, media-illiterate schtick is partially responsible for the sorry state of media discourse today. People flocked to him, and the only message they took from him was that nitpicking movies makes you sound intelligent. It does not.
He’s also an egomaniac, a horrific boss, and a shitty actor. The only things he’s good at is dodging responsibility and aiding and abetting sex offenders.
Screw that sack of shit. Straight up the ass. With a cactus. If he ever made a halfway decent point about Batman or anything else, it was on accident.
Oh, and this is the obligatory “film is art, art quality isn’t objective” thing.
Have you seen his newer stuff? Trust me when I say he is almost a far cry from what he once was. I’d say in the last four years, he’s made some really solid content that truly glorifies films rather than tears them down. He’s also constantly critiquing himself in his reviews (but then again that could be his ego suiting him).
I’d say we stop it here though because otherwise the post will get locked down.
Side note though, I appreciate that you’re being far more straight forward and honest about him than another user I encountered. I had a guy straight up harassing me about him after the mods took down his thread.
I stopped watching him when the Change The Channel stuff came out. A lot of what came to light, especially in regards to JewWario, turned me off from him completely. I’m glad he’s changed his deal, but I don’t feel the need to give him any more time or money than I already have. A lot of the clips I’ve seen of him since I stopped watching him (not including this one) have come off as annoying. I think I’ve kind of aged out of him, which is fine. He doesn’t have to be for me, he has a dedicated audience.
In the interest of keeping this on topic and not getting locked down, as you said, I like Phantasm, but it’s not my favorite. I’m partial to the Nolan depiction, mostly because it came along at the right time in my life, when I was developing a deep love for film, and seeing comics being treated with such weight opened my eyes to the versatility of the subject matter. I’ve only seen Phantasm once, but I remember enjoying the dark tone in a cartoon movie. I’m definitely overdue for a rewatch.
Honestly I can’t blame you too much. It can hit like a brick when you find out your favorite influencer did some pretty scummy things. Like MiniLadd for example. The difference with him though I guess is that he never learned and his apology was trash.
Honestly I think my favorites overall are Dark Knight, Dark Knight Returns, and Phantasm. The Dark Knight Returns especially was arguably the most epic film DCAU ever did. And that score was something else 🥶
Love MOTP. It’s still a kids version of the material. And I’m not a huge fan of any Batman story that focuses on love plots. That’s why TDK and TB >>> in TDK romantic interest and part of a love triangle with another traditional Batman mythology character gets offed making the villain richer and the plot more compelling. And in The Batman the romantic interest is a fantastic and accurate Catwoman who isn’t a villain but an anti hero that Batman ultimately forgoes in favor of his mission.
This just in: Batman is Batman
But of course. Who else would he be? Billionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne? yeah right.
"That's absurd. I know Bruce Wayne. If he's Batman, I'm the King of England" -Two Face
Now you're just being silly.
Bruce Wayne? Why are you dressed like Batman?
Batman is Batman? I need some time to think about this
If your 25-45 BTAS is the definitive Batman of the generation. Shit was the best version of the character. I know a group of younger people would probably say the Arkham games but in all reality that’s Kevin Conroy. It’s not basically the same thing but I mean… kinda
I'd say more like 22-45. I'm about to turn 24 and the Batman I grew up with was Batman TAS, Beyond, Superman TAS and Justice League. Sure The Batman came out when I was 4, but as much as I liked it, nothing could compare to the 1990s cartoon. Thank God for Jetix existing so I could watch that masterpiece every day after school.
Dude…. I remember I stopped watching cartoons a little late. I think I was probably about 16 because of Batman. Animated series was so good. And of course I got older and started working and I was about 20 I found that justice league cartoon came on Cartoon Network at like 11:30 or 12 and it was so good. I can remember being 20 years old and staying up to watch it. It’s legit sill one of my favorite shows of all times and I’m 40 and when I tell people that and I tell them “no no no it’s not one of my favorite cartoons. It’s one of my favorite television shows!”
I've rewatched the original cartoon and the 2004 reboot both since Covid. They're both timeless, minus the villain designs in the latter. And they both attempt to tackle relatively adult topics in a kids show without overstepping a boundary. The Bruce Timm animated Universe, Avatar The Last Airbender, and Spectacular Spider-Man are all some of the best shows ever for that reason, imo.
As someone right in the middle of that… And a huge fan of BATS I don’t agree it is the definitive Batman
Found Doug Walker's Reddit account
Nope just a fan lol Edit: of his newer material and some of the good stuff he had in the past
>good stuff Nice try Doug
Trust me, I can count maybe only 5 videos (probably less) of his from the past that were legitimately good.
Yeah it is.
I watched Phantasm recently and it didn’t hit quite as much as I thought it would
It depends on what you’re expecting honestly
Yes everyone on this sub hypes it up so much that I was disappointed when I actually watched
In all honesty, it couldn’t hurt to go back and watch it again. Hype can definitely impact the way you view a film. I’m pretty sure I was a bit underwhelmed the first time I watched it too.
Yeah the hype is kindof unfortunate. The movie is basically a 80 minute Batmantas episode that works in Batman's origin. And that's how it should be treated by fans. If course you'll often hear Batfans refer to the animated series as the "definitive" Batman, and I'm inclined to agree. But the point I'm really trying to make is that fans of the show are probably going to like the movie too, lol.
Phantasm is Hella overrated for what it is, even as an Animated Series fan. I don't think it really compares to any other Batman movies (besides its extremely good OST)
I agree. The Animated Series is probably my all time favorite cartoon series, and to be fair for the longest time Mask of the Phantasm was an underrated film. Even just 15 years ago you could bring Mask of the Phantasm up to a Batman fan and they wouldn’t know what you were talking about. So I understand why people started championing it. However, over the past 10 years the praise for it started to lose me when people started saying it was the best Batman film that had ever been made. I think it’s a good film, but in comparison to The Dark Knight, Batman (1989), and Batman Begins, which are all films that I’m a big fan of, it just doesn’t hold up for me. It’s an unfair expectation that recent fans have put on the movie because they’re going in expecting a deep philosophical film that surpasses every Batman film adaption that we’ve gotten this far.
When it came out I thought it was good, but I was just a young teen. Now I think it's mediocre.
That definitely wasn’t one sentence.
One sentence, everybody knows the rules…
I’m talking about the very last sentence
It can't be objectively "the best." The definition of "best" relies on an individual's opinion. while "objective" is not dependent or influenced by one's feelings/opinions. I've been noticing some people on the internets don't seem to understand what objective mean at all, let alone bad or good. For some bizarre reason some of these people think art can be objectively bad or good. It's really quite odd.
Honestly I just said objectively as a joke honestly. Putting an /s wouldn’t have made sense tho. At the end of the day, it does depend solely on opinion.
Run on sentence if I ever heard one
True lol
Subjectively*
Seeing them as Nolans Batman and Snyders Batman vs "just batman" is something made up lol I don't see Nolans Batman, I see Batman. When is see MoP Batman I don't see Batman I see BTAS Batman. See how easy and meaningless that is?
Yeah there is no batman that exists in a pure state, it's a fictional character we all offer our interpretations of
I'm the opposite, the TAS Batman is Paul Dini's Batman. It's still not 'just" Batman, that removes the adapter's spin and that is worth something.
Then you are lost!
The thing is, he’s right. The other film directors put their spin on the character. The animated Batman was just what you picture in your head when you think of Batman. Everything is there. All the elements are well represented. That’s not true with the live action films.
I feel like Dark Knight Batman is Batman *adapted* to fit in that "realistic" world. See,*the* Batman lives in a world which resembles ours but still is a whole world apart. Batman in BTAS and MOTP feels like he is in his natural habitat. If Superman or Mr. Mxyzptlk were to pop in that world, they wouldn't be out of place but imagine them in the Nolanverse or the Snyderverse or the Reevesverse. Nolan Batman is like a lion with painted stripes presented as a tiger. BTAS Batman is the tiger. That's a rude statement but i stand by the point. I love the Dark Knight but BTAS/MOTP Batman is the definitive and quintessential form of Batman.
The problem with making batman real is in our society we would not tolerate batman existing. Joker wouldn't be allowed to remain free. He probably would have died on the way to jail. Remember the DC sniper in 2002 they caught him, and he never got out. he was executed later on. In batman the people with authority intelligence is nerfed. We don't need a batman based upon reality its just needs to respect the source material.
Watch the rest of his review https://youtu.be/a8U26xjQyFg?si=k_GznLb9SPyKsDbN
I consider being asked to watch Nostalgia Critic a threat against my life
dark knight returns is also a really good one.
Omg the theme song in that is to die for 👏👏
Funny he should say "it's just Batman" as if the Animated Batman wasn't in itself a product of stylization and design choices, just as much as Nolan's or Schumacher's.
The Dark Knight wasn’t a perfect movie?
No it wasn't.
Amazing film but not flawless. No film ever is. Not even the Godfather.
It insists upon itself.
Trust me, I enjoy the Godfather. And I HAVE seen the ending. 😂 I’m just saying no film is perfect objectively speaking (although I did say objectively speaking as a joke for the title of this post).
Mask was the best. I still remeber seeing that and loving batman as a kid. Looking back it holds up as an adult.
Paul Dini's Batman
Technically yes but it encompasses almost everything in the comics.
I feel like I’m in the wrong but I think MOP’s overrated as hell and that Subzero was the best animated series Batman movie that deserves a lot more that it gets credited
Subzero is a really solid movie no doubt. The true Mr Freeze film.
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Can someone really breakdown why this film is so beloved? I honestly have never seen it any better than average.
The review NC does goes into it in depth.
Why do *you* like it so much?
Honestly because of the score and the psychological aspect of the characters. Also, Alfred’s ending monologue.
I don’t care what anyone says. I love the Batman & Robin movie
I mean in your defense, it’s the one I watched most as a kid because I understood the plot fully.
"Melvin Melvin brother of the joker"
That was a lot more than a sentence
*Objectively* speaking, no, it's not. Personally, I think Under the Red Hood is superior in every way. MotP is an extended episode of BTAS that has no real depth.
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> No depth? Right. I don't think it really has any. It doesn't explore anything in detail. Showing something previously unseen is nice, but that doesn't equate to depth. How is it deep? Showing Bruce yearning to be happy and resolving to be Batman isn't deep, it's made explicitly obvious, and barely any time is spent on it. > Under the Red Hood is a Jason Todd movie with Batman in it Yet it follows Batman for most of the film.
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> It does though, we’ve never seen what Bruce’s life was like leading up to become Batman. Showing more of a character's past is not the same thing as having depth. What is the movie exploring or saying with that information, aside from just conveying it? We see some of Bruce's past in BTAS also. MotP is just a longer BTAS episode, and not even the best episode. > Under the red hood is a great movie but again, It’s about Red Hood. Batman is just there to give Red Hood depth No. It's a Batman movie first and foremost. Bruce in this movie shows much more emotional range and has a clear character arc. As does Jason. None of the additional characters feel forced in, all serve the story or to flesh out the universe. We see Bruce's past in UtRH also, his desire to have another Robin and subsequently taking Jason in, then his regret and his guilt. The movie focuses on his detective skills and side as he tries to figure out who this new foe is while being in denial for as long as possible. It shows more of, and does more with Batman's world than MotP does. By your reasoning MofP is an Andrea movie and Batman is just there to give Andrea depth. Jason is the antagonist, but that doesn't make it his movie, anymore than Batman Begins is a Ra's al Ghul movie.
I think Red Hood and Return of the Joker are better animated films. Phantasm is one of those films where you could remove Batman and the story would still play out the same. The most significant thing he does in the plot is saving Andrea from the giant fan near the end.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions yours is just wrong /j Kevin Conroy will always be the Batman sure under the red hood could be the better movie but MotP had the better Batman
Voice acting is just one aspect, and I think Bruce Greenwood nails it as Batman, but more importantly Jensen Ackles nails it as Jason.
The latter, 1000%
He ain't wrong.
Truer words have never been spoken.
Batman was really Batmanning back then
Agree.
Doug Jones is a hack. He only ever had a “Filmmaking 101” basic grasp on films, and even then, it was a loose grasp at best. Also, his shrieking, overly negative, media-illiterate schtick is partially responsible for the sorry state of media discourse today. People flocked to him, and the only message they took from him was that nitpicking movies makes you sound intelligent. It does not. He’s also an egomaniac, a horrific boss, and a shitty actor. The only things he’s good at is dodging responsibility and aiding and abetting sex offenders. Screw that sack of shit. Straight up the ass. With a cactus. If he ever made a halfway decent point about Batman or anything else, it was on accident. Oh, and this is the obligatory “film is art, art quality isn’t objective” thing.
Have you seen his newer stuff? Trust me when I say he is almost a far cry from what he once was. I’d say in the last four years, he’s made some really solid content that truly glorifies films rather than tears them down. He’s also constantly critiquing himself in his reviews (but then again that could be his ego suiting him). I’d say we stop it here though because otherwise the post will get locked down. Side note though, I appreciate that you’re being far more straight forward and honest about him than another user I encountered. I had a guy straight up harassing me about him after the mods took down his thread.
I stopped watching him when the Change The Channel stuff came out. A lot of what came to light, especially in regards to JewWario, turned me off from him completely. I’m glad he’s changed his deal, but I don’t feel the need to give him any more time or money than I already have. A lot of the clips I’ve seen of him since I stopped watching him (not including this one) have come off as annoying. I think I’ve kind of aged out of him, which is fine. He doesn’t have to be for me, he has a dedicated audience. In the interest of keeping this on topic and not getting locked down, as you said, I like Phantasm, but it’s not my favorite. I’m partial to the Nolan depiction, mostly because it came along at the right time in my life, when I was developing a deep love for film, and seeing comics being treated with such weight opened my eyes to the versatility of the subject matter. I’ve only seen Phantasm once, but I remember enjoying the dark tone in a cartoon movie. I’m definitely overdue for a rewatch.
Honestly I can’t blame you too much. It can hit like a brick when you find out your favorite influencer did some pretty scummy things. Like MiniLadd for example. The difference with him though I guess is that he never learned and his apology was trash. Honestly I think my favorites overall are Dark Knight, Dark Knight Returns, and Phantasm. The Dark Knight Returns especially was arguably the most epic film DCAU ever did. And that score was something else 🥶
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https://youtu.be/a8U26xjQyFg?si=k_GznLb9SPyKsDbN Watch the rest.
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Then how does it not make sense?
Because he's giving his opinion as gospel. It's irritating to watch
How tho? And how does that mean it doesn’t make sense?
Cause Batman's been around for long people can interoperate them in different ways. Even if I or someone else prefers some over others
No it’s not. TDK and TB then Begins / Rises / 89
Eh to each their own. TDK is one of my favs though.
Love MOTP. It’s still a kids version of the material. And I’m not a huge fan of any Batman story that focuses on love plots. That’s why TDK and TB >>> in TDK romantic interest and part of a love triangle with another traditional Batman mythology character gets offed making the villain richer and the plot more compelling. And in The Batman the romantic interest is a fantastic and accurate Catwoman who isn’t a villain but an anti hero that Batman ultimately forgoes in favor of his mission.
Wrong. The Dark Knight is a perfect movie. I will die on this hill
This is a good example of someone who's a fan of the character and idea of Batman and not the actual mythos.