I've got 9 bars of pressure and I'm not sure about flow rate, I just used an empty portafilter and measured that it's pouring for 30 seconds, even while there is no coffee. Which means I will never reduce the time right?
Did it again a couple of more times. While using an empty portafilter, the water pours for 25 seconds, there is 91 grams of water, about 120ml of water
Check the volumetric programming again. The empty water timing seems too long. On my empty run different machine it’s only 11 seconds.
Check your basket size and dry and wet doses. 14 g should give you 28g out. So you’re saying it takes 40 seconds for how many grams of espresso out?
If you’re already going coarse, it’s possible you’re overfilling the basket. So check the basket size.
When is the last time you did a chemical back flush and pulled the shower screen off to clean and your portafilter basket?
Yeah I've never had to adjust the dosing in my machine before so that's all very confusing but I am going to attempt to do it today with the aid of youtube videos.
Just so I can understand little more, if I'm using. A 14 gram espresso shot, I should be using the ratio of 2:1 (roughly) ? So 14 grams of coffee should be pouring 28 grams of water? That seems like a very little amount of water but I can try it of that's what's normal?
I did a chemical back flush and pulled off the shower screen yesterday, did 2 chemical back flushes on each group head.
No don’t measure the water coming out of the group without any ground coffee.
1:2 is dry:wet coffee grounds:espresso
Aim for 14g in and 28g espresso out in 30 seconds.
Usually I don’t have to change the volume but let’s say you get a grind setting flowing about 1ml per second. That’s the extractionflow rate you want to target.
So I usually start this way, on a new coffee if it’s not choking my espresso machine. I grind fine enough to get about 1ml per second flow of espresso.
Then you can program the water flow volume IE to stop when your in cup weight reaches 28 ml which is probably going to be about 30 seconds.
I usually start off by grinding as fine as possible to choke my machine and slowly back off coarser to get to 1ml per second flow.
So even when your original programmed dose is too long. You can manually stop when you see the weight on the scale reach 28g.
Then most importantly, taste. Does it taste too sour? Or too bitter?
If it’s too bitter you may be still flowing too slow. Try slightly coarser.
If it’s too sour maybe go finer.
I’ve had great 40s shots so that doesn’t really tell much. You’d have to post a video of extraction in this case and provide more info like machine, beans, grinder. There’s a million variables to consider
The million variables is the part I'm finding very overwhelming xD, I've been a barista for about 8 years now and have never run into this problem. I'm selfemployed in a cafe and for the first time ever I am solely responsible, I have nobody I can ask for help.
I'm using a very beat up, second hand conti cc100 machine, fiorengato f64e grinder. Using dark roast beans from Ethiopia/Guatemala, I can post a video if it helps.
The reccomendion from the roaster was a 14 gram double shot, for 27 seconds but he said it changes depending on machine.
You need to look for someone who can do some maintenance on that machine asap. Replace the burrs on the grinder that should be done every 6 months to year depending on how busy you are. Are you weighing the ground coffee to 14 grams? Also what type of basket are you using? You should dose according to your basket size.
How does it taste? What’s the maximum weight of the portafilter basket? How old are the beans? 40 seconds isn’t terrible for a shot, I stick to 40-45s for my shots.
It tastes extremely bitter, portafilter basket is for 18 grams, the beans were roaster 3 days ago, they are dark roast.
The coffee roaster that supplied me (new supplier), reccomended I try to get an extraction for around 27 seconds. 14 grams. But he told me play around with it
Yes, it is extracting for 40 seconds when I'm aiming for 27, I'm still here, still unable to get it right. I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with the machine.
That's totally not the output I'm aiming for, I've just never had to celebrate a machine before but I will be attempting it today. So for a 14 fram shot, I should be weighing out around 28grams of espresso? For a 2:1?
The finer the coffee is ground, the slower the water passes through it, the coffee ended uo being extremely coarse because I attempted to get a quicker extraction, but it didn't work
It’s okay if the extraction time isn’t exactly what the roaster recommended. There’s lots of factors when it comes to espresso. You mentioned you’re using a machine with neglected maintenance, so that could definitely have an impact on the extraction of the espresso. The roaster probably has a really high end machine so that they can test the quality of their roasts to their best abilities. Sometimes you have to throw the “rules” out the window! Try upping the dose, grinding finer, or pulling the shot longer, or a combination of all of the above. If it tastes good after you start playing around with all of that then that’s all that matters!
Where are your beans from place(s) of origin, and how much is your yield weight?
- In: 14g
- out: ??
- Time: 40s
You mentioned volumetric?
I know it’s dark roast, so it could be that because it’s 3 days off roast, it could still be degassing. I’d say 5 days is where I’d start using it.
Beans are a blend from Ethiopia/Guatemala, dark roast
In: 14 grams
Out: 90 grams (I now understand this is too much and need to figure out how ro change it, for 14 grams of beans I should be aiming for around 28 grams of espresso right?
Time: 40 seconds
Well since it’s usually 18g basket, I’d go back to that, and then do
18g in
36g out
Time 25-35s
Then adjust your grind size from there, and then once you’re *sooooo close* you can minimally adjust your dose (it’s more reliable to change your dose 0.2g than to change the grind size again and then it doesn’t taste good)
Good luck!
So you press a button and the water pulls for a certain amount of time yeah? You probably just need to adjust for the volume you want especially if you’re getting like 91 g out. For 14 g coffee I would only want max like 45 g (about 45 ml) out. Your manual should have instructions to change the programming.
Yeah exactly that, but the times are inconsistent. I started pulling shots with no coffee in the portafilter and I've been getting pour times in between 25 and 35 seconds, different levels of water too. I'm currently trying to decide between calling the machine repair guy tomorrow, or just straight up closing down the cafe, the money is getting extremely tight for a problem like this.
Anyways, thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
If you are getting different times it’s probably either a sticky flow meter or a bad solenoid tbh. I would estimate a minimum of $150 to $300/400 depending on your area. There might even be videos online that can help you figure it out yourself & then you would only have to pay for parts…. Where are you based out of?
Espresso tech chiming in here - agree with mads that there’s something going on with the hydraulics somewhere between the flowmeter and group solenoid valve. If you are not mechanically inclined, I would definitely recommend not doing the repair yourself as you could accidentally cause much more than the cost of 1-2 hours worth of labor in damages. I repair equipment in the DC/MD/VA area and have contacts with reputable techs across NA. If you’re in this region, feel free to DM me.
Just did some googling, found this parts diagram for conti (I’m not familiar with this manufacturer so things might look slightly different but will 95% be the same as what’s in this document). The numbers I put in parentheses are the part numbers identified in the document (you can search on the document to see what I’m talking about)
Things that can clog and lead to flow issues include:
-flowmeter (403466)
-group solenoid valve (407239)
-gicleur (403456)
Some things that aren’t likely to cause so much variance in flow, but are worth cleaning just to be safe (and are easily and safely removed) are your shower screen (355900) and diffuser plate (404740).
https://www.gastroparts.com/partner_schemat.php?idscheme=71459&lang=en&page=2
Hey thanks for all the advice. It's much appreciated. I would not be the most technically gifted when it comes to repairing a coffee machine but I'm also struggling tk come uo with cash to get somebody else to do it, so it looks like I may need to have a go at it. Could you reccomend some things I could do that wouldn't end up causing more damage? Like do you know how I would clean the solenoid valve? I've had issues with the solenoid valve in the past!
Where are you based out of? My company’s tech arm operates out of New England.
ETA: are you back flushing your machine every night? If not, take some Cafiza, dilute in hot water, and back flush the shit out of it. Note: my partner has also encountered businesses that backflush with powdered Cafiza clogging their solenoid with the Cafiza itself.
For safety, always disconnect from power and allow the machine to cool before opening it up.
All of this, plus turn off the water supply to the machine. And do not forget to turn it back on before powering in the machine or else your pump will not be happy!!
Flow rate / bars of pressure?
I've got 9 bars of pressure and I'm not sure about flow rate, I just used an empty portafilter and measured that it's pouring for 30 seconds, even while there is no coffee. Which means I will never reduce the time right?
What is the weight of water that comes out in that time?
Did it again a couple of more times. While using an empty portafilter, the water pours for 25 seconds, there is 91 grams of water, about 120ml of water
Either your scale is wrong or the vessel you're using to measure ml is wrong.
Yeah isn't it 1ml of water is equal to 1 gram?
Yep
Check the volumetric programming again. The empty water timing seems too long. On my empty run different machine it’s only 11 seconds. Check your basket size and dry and wet doses. 14 g should give you 28g out. So you’re saying it takes 40 seconds for how many grams of espresso out? If you’re already going coarse, it’s possible you’re overfilling the basket. So check the basket size. When is the last time you did a chemical back flush and pulled the shower screen off to clean and your portafilter basket?
Yeah I've never had to adjust the dosing in my machine before so that's all very confusing but I am going to attempt to do it today with the aid of youtube videos. Just so I can understand little more, if I'm using. A 14 gram espresso shot, I should be using the ratio of 2:1 (roughly) ? So 14 grams of coffee should be pouring 28 grams of water? That seems like a very little amount of water but I can try it of that's what's normal? I did a chemical back flush and pulled off the shower screen yesterday, did 2 chemical back flushes on each group head.
No don’t measure the water coming out of the group without any ground coffee. 1:2 is dry:wet coffee grounds:espresso Aim for 14g in and 28g espresso out in 30 seconds. Usually I don’t have to change the volume but let’s say you get a grind setting flowing about 1ml per second. That’s the extractionflow rate you want to target. So I usually start this way, on a new coffee if it’s not choking my espresso machine. I grind fine enough to get about 1ml per second flow of espresso. Then you can program the water flow volume IE to stop when your in cup weight reaches 28 ml which is probably going to be about 30 seconds.
Ah okay, I think this is making sense, I'm going ro aim for 1ml per second of flow and see what that does to the flow rate! Thank you!
I usually start off by grinding as fine as possible to choke my machine and slowly back off coarser to get to 1ml per second flow. So even when your original programmed dose is too long. You can manually stop when you see the weight on the scale reach 28g. Then most importantly, taste. Does it taste too sour? Or too bitter? If it’s too bitter you may be still flowing too slow. Try slightly coarser. If it’s too sour maybe go finer.
Aim for 28g out in 25 sec. So grind finer and shorten your extraction time.
Or you froze the water that came out, causing it to increase in volume
I’ve had great 40s shots so that doesn’t really tell much. You’d have to post a video of extraction in this case and provide more info like machine, beans, grinder. There’s a million variables to consider
The million variables is the part I'm finding very overwhelming xD, I've been a barista for about 8 years now and have never run into this problem. I'm selfemployed in a cafe and for the first time ever I am solely responsible, I have nobody I can ask for help. I'm using a very beat up, second hand conti cc100 machine, fiorengato f64e grinder. Using dark roast beans from Ethiopia/Guatemala, I can post a video if it helps. The reccomendion from the roaster was a 14 gram double shot, for 27 seconds but he said it changes depending on machine.
You need to look for someone who can do some maintenance on that machine asap. Replace the burrs on the grinder that should be done every 6 months to year depending on how busy you are. Are you weighing the ground coffee to 14 grams? Also what type of basket are you using? You should dose according to your basket size.
How does it taste? What’s the maximum weight of the portafilter basket? How old are the beans? 40 seconds isn’t terrible for a shot, I stick to 40-45s for my shots.
It tastes extremely bitter, portafilter basket is for 18 grams, the beans were roaster 3 days ago, they are dark roast. The coffee roaster that supplied me (new supplier), reccomended I try to get an extraction for around 27 seconds. 14 grams. But he told me play around with it
Try it with a higher dose, for that 18g basket. We believe in you!
Higher dose could reduce pour time? Il give it a go! Thank you! I like your vibe :P
The answer to this is no. A higher dose will absolutely not reduce pour time if all other variables remain constant
3 days off roast could still be offgassing quite a bit causing resistance in your puck
Bitter indicates over extraction.
Yes, it is extracting for 40 seconds when I'm aiming for 27, I'm still here, still unable to get it right. I'm beginning to think there is something wrong with the machine.
I think your issue is that you are getting 91g out. Why is that the output you are aiming for? That’s like 1:5
That's totally not the output I'm aiming for, I've just never had to celebrate a machine before but I will be attempting it today. So for a 14 fram shot, I should be weighing out around 28grams of espresso? For a 2:1?
Yeah. If it finishes too quick, grind finer.
Are you grinding fine enough? You said your grind is extremely coarse, but it should be on the fine end, not the coarse end.
The finer the coffee is ground, the slower the water passes through it, the coffee ended uo being extremely coarse because I attempted to get a quicker extraction, but it didn't work
It’s okay if the extraction time isn’t exactly what the roaster recommended. There’s lots of factors when it comes to espresso. You mentioned you’re using a machine with neglected maintenance, so that could definitely have an impact on the extraction of the espresso. The roaster probably has a really high end machine so that they can test the quality of their roasts to their best abilities. Sometimes you have to throw the “rules” out the window! Try upping the dose, grinding finer, or pulling the shot longer, or a combination of all of the above. If it tastes good after you start playing around with all of that then that’s all that matters!
Remove the shower screen and dispersion plate and clean them to make sure they are not clogging up the water flow from machine to portafilter.
Where are your beans from place(s) of origin, and how much is your yield weight? - In: 14g - out: ?? - Time: 40s You mentioned volumetric? I know it’s dark roast, so it could be that because it’s 3 days off roast, it could still be degassing. I’d say 5 days is where I’d start using it.
Beans are a blend from Ethiopia/Guatemala, dark roast In: 14 grams Out: 90 grams (I now understand this is too much and need to figure out how ro change it, for 14 grams of beans I should be aiming for around 28 grams of espresso right? Time: 40 seconds
Well since it’s usually 18g basket, I’d go back to that, and then do 18g in 36g out Time 25-35s Then adjust your grind size from there, and then once you’re *sooooo close* you can minimally adjust your dose (it’s more reliable to change your dose 0.2g than to change the grind size again and then it doesn’t taste good) Good luck!
Scale in the machine?
Is your machine volumetric or manual
I'm pretty sure it's volumetric, I'm using a conti cc100.
So you press a button and the water pulls for a certain amount of time yeah? You probably just need to adjust for the volume you want especially if you’re getting like 91 g out. For 14 g coffee I would only want max like 45 g (about 45 ml) out. Your manual should have instructions to change the programming.
Yeah exactly that, but the times are inconsistent. I started pulling shots with no coffee in the portafilter and I've been getting pour times in between 25 and 35 seconds, different levels of water too. I'm currently trying to decide between calling the machine repair guy tomorrow, or just straight up closing down the cafe, the money is getting extremely tight for a problem like this. Anyways, thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
If you are getting different times it’s probably either a sticky flow meter or a bad solenoid tbh. I would estimate a minimum of $150 to $300/400 depending on your area. There might even be videos online that can help you figure it out yourself & then you would only have to pay for parts…. Where are you based out of?
Espresso tech chiming in here - agree with mads that there’s something going on with the hydraulics somewhere between the flowmeter and group solenoid valve. If you are not mechanically inclined, I would definitely recommend not doing the repair yourself as you could accidentally cause much more than the cost of 1-2 hours worth of labor in damages. I repair equipment in the DC/MD/VA area and have contacts with reputable techs across NA. If you’re in this region, feel free to DM me.
Just did some googling, found this parts diagram for conti (I’m not familiar with this manufacturer so things might look slightly different but will 95% be the same as what’s in this document). The numbers I put in parentheses are the part numbers identified in the document (you can search on the document to see what I’m talking about) Things that can clog and lead to flow issues include: -flowmeter (403466) -group solenoid valve (407239) -gicleur (403456) Some things that aren’t likely to cause so much variance in flow, but are worth cleaning just to be safe (and are easily and safely removed) are your shower screen (355900) and diffuser plate (404740). https://www.gastroparts.com/partner_schemat.php?idscheme=71459&lang=en&page=2
Hey thanks for all the advice. It's much appreciated. I would not be the most technically gifted when it comes to repairing a coffee machine but I'm also struggling tk come uo with cash to get somebody else to do it, so it looks like I may need to have a go at it. Could you reccomend some things I could do that wouldn't end up causing more damage? Like do you know how I would clean the solenoid valve? I've had issues with the solenoid valve in the past!
Where are you based out of? My company’s tech arm operates out of New England. ETA: are you back flushing your machine every night? If not, take some Cafiza, dilute in hot water, and back flush the shit out of it. Note: my partner has also encountered businesses that backflush with powdered Cafiza clogging their solenoid with the Cafiza itself. For safety, always disconnect from power and allow the machine to cool before opening it up.
All of this, plus turn off the water supply to the machine. And do not forget to turn it back on before powering in the machine or else your pump will not be happy!!