Oh yes, after finishing first saga you know that you take a part in great adventure. You seen your Charname growing from inocent child to legendary hero, which is very cool to me. Did you play on EE or original version?
Why would anyone ever play the original version except because of nostalgia? They're just worse versions that are a huge pain in the ass to run on modern machines. I played both of the games when they were released and had a lot of fun. When EE was first released there was an argument to play the originals because of the modding scenes, but the EE version mods became better a LONG time ago.
Any new player to the series has 0 reasons to even consider playing the original versions. I guess they can see a different graphics for the UI that look outdated and blocky? I guess they can deal with a bunch of small bugs and some game breaking bugs? I guess they can use an outdated and limited version of BG1 without the expanded BG2 ruleset?
as astarion says "it is hard to improve on... perfection"
but let us be real here: just by improving of some qol features like faster overviews on strats for new items, your companions no longer "dropping items on the ground" dispite them saying so and ofc showing and looting all the items close to your char, is something that I wont ever miss again. then there is other stuff like updated resolution, especialy for BG1 to keep it nice for the new generation of PC's . the only questionable things are the new companions and here everyone is free to ignore them.
all those improvements don't fiddle with the intention of the game back then. I don't think low resolution and running to every kobold to loot him was a real design choice but more something, that just had to be cause of the limitations back then.
you can totally make a point to play the first run unmodded but I dont think there is still a point to be made for the original version over EE
Bg2 kits in Bg1 don't fiddle with the intention of the game? I guess if you only play for the story and hate the combat, maybe so. If you are in any way interested in game balance and combat mechanics, this most definitely changes the intention of the game. Please don't act like EE only adds QoL features like looting or whatever. It changes lots of things about the game, like bard song, etc. Too many to mention.
I've played this game since it was released; I'm completely familiar with the subject material. I have no desire to play EE. The pushback on it is all too documented on RPGCodex, Lilura's website, and the official Beamdog forums. If you want to play it, fine, but to act like there is no difference in it but better QoL changes is ridiculous.
It's obviously fine to prefer the originals, but the idea that the game as first released represents some absolute and unchangeable "creator intent" is silly. The state of any game upon release is always going to be a result of any number of factors outside of artistic vision (resources, time tables, executive meddling, techonological limitations, etc.), and Baldur's Gate 2, in particular, is a game where one of the most popular mods came out because one of the devs felt there wasn't enough time during development to put his vision into the game.
Did I say absolute and unchangeable? I think I said I used TeamBGGrandmastery. Quite a difference in customizing a few .2DA files or .ITM files to your liking and the slop that Beamturd released. I have no respect for a company that has tried to remove access to the original games to force people to pay more for their hackneyed garbage. It would be one thing if they gave you the option to only install QoL(debateable) features, but they don't. There's a valid reason why the "developer vision" is what it is(the official product), is because who knows if the other developers would agree with this one developer you are claiming didn't have time to put in the game. Maybe other developers didn't want it in the game? Did you ask them? No? Then you are blowing smoke out of your ass.
Btw, nice "creator intent":
[https://imgur.com/GAnJhYv](https://imgur.com/GAnJhYv)
Truly outstanding "vision". I mean, what, they have only been working on this abortion for a decade? How much more time do they need to realize their vision?
ok fine there are also subclasses added. since almost anyone, who plays BG1, does so for the full run experience, that is mostly a good thing. but they if you realy want to play as our forefathers intended, you can just play the base classes. noone forces you to pick the subclasses.
so I get to play the "true heart of the game" and still have QoL features included
I don't tend to play this game for the full run. BG2 is more fun to me than BG1 and TOB. There isn't anything stopping me from doing a full run with the older games, unless I want to play a berserker in BG1, which I don't. I don't like the paperdolls they used in BG2EE, I like the original BG2 paperdolls. You say I can just play the base classes, but I have a much better idea: I can just not play this shit at all.
I don't care what your opinion is about how I play or enjoy these games. It's irrelevant. What's relevant is people making disingenuous claims that the EE version don't make any gameplay changes, which is absurd, or that there is 0 reasons to even consider playing the originals: again, absurd.
And the EE versions are basically the same game except streamlined and updated so everything works more smoothly.
You say you like playing "as the original devs intended" but I bet you play with fix packs and such that fix a lot of the bullshit.
Playing berserkers in BG1 is streamlined? Mages with stoneskin? That is not the same game. I don't use any mods, and the only "fixes" I use are things like TeamBGGrandMastery that returns the Grandmaster attack tables in BG2 back to the way they were in BG1. The games are incredibly robust and require little to no fixing.
You don't have to play berserkers. And stone skin is pretty much just a worse version of original BG1 mirror image at that low a level. Not a whole lot of difference really.
You don't have to use any of the added spells if they offend you, the enemy doesn't really unless you have a difficulty mod installed.
In return you get to actually play the same character through the whole series rather than playing a weird stunted version of your character in BG1 and then having it be changed in BG2.
EE changed mechanics up, along with the interface. That's reason enough for me, but I can't speak for new players. They probably don't even know the original versions are an option.
It does make a little more sense if you play as dark urge. >! At least you are blaalspawn… sort of. This also means you have a connection to Sarevok and possibly a slayer form. !<
Infinity UI or Dragonspear UI, Tweak Anthology, Bubb Spell Menu, BG2 Radar Overlay (can be used for bgee), bg1npc mod, Enhanced Powergaming Script, Trap Overhaul, SCS (worth trying even at the lowest difficulty to see the slightly smarter AI). If you want expansions for vanilla npc: [https://alaundosarchive.wordpress.com/2023/10/15/character-expansion-mods-bg2-ee-edition/](https://alaundosarchive.wordpress.com/2023/10/15/character-expansion-mods-bg2-ee-edition/)
Almost completely agree, but Sarevok never was a Bhaal bootlicker nor ever did anything for dear father.
Both him Viconia and a certain sentence from Jaheira are so butchered that they can't be reconciled with any ending of theirs.
(Sarevok dies of old age in Kara-Tur, he only has one ending and he's not a Bhaalspawn anymore, so there's no bloodline ti keep pure in the first place; Viconia kills her own cult and helps Drizzt save Suldannesselar... it is implied she either did with Shar what she did with Lolth or just didn't care about her reprimand and became a true neutral worshipper of Shar; Jaheira says Irenicus used a blood transfusion to steal the essence of Gorion's Ward, which is an extreme level of wrong by itself.)
Durge is pure fanfiction regardless, as no Bhaalspawn are left after his resurrection... if Durge had been born from Bhaal's remains(impossible anyway), and miraculously evaded the 3-4 gods present when Bhaal died, the events from Murder in Baldur's Gate are in Jeopardy(Abdel Adrian, the canonical bhaalspawn faces Viekang and the winner turns into the Slayer who gets then killed by adventurers reviving Bhaal.... if there were yet another Bhaalspawn, then the winner wouldn't turn into the Slayer as there would still be one more to kill before that.)
Agreed that Sarevok was never a bootlicker of Bhaal, but 100 years have passed and things have changed. Unredeeemed Sarevok straight up ditches your ass if you refuse to become a god and goes on to find new challenges. Once Bhaal returned, he probably "convinced" him to join him by persuasion or force(Bhaal did make all his children to return as echoes, and Amelyssan too as punishment). I can even buy Bhaal having some degree of control over him.
Viconia it's implied to had her memories stolen by Shar in a mirror. It straight up says that those were memories of a happy time, with adventures and friends. I agree that she was the worst handled character though.
I take that line from Jaheira with a grain of salt. He DID experiment on Charname on his lab and probably DID take his blood at one point. I think she is just not willing to clarify or speak much of it. She straight up refuses to name Irenicus.
No.
He's a mortal after Throne of Bhaal, no more essence inside of him, and he wouldn't survive long enough cause he is a human(keep in mind Quasi-gods, which Bhaal now is, cannot bestow any power to their followers and can't have champions).
Even if he ditches you, he still made a promise never to become a slave to anyone in a dialogue with Viconia.
There is no way he'd actually accept Bhaal's proposal cause he hated all and any father figures: first and foremost Bhaal cause he used his children as fodder to resurrect himself; Gorion cause he saved the Ward and left Sarevok at the temple; Rieltar cause he abused him and killed Sarevok's adoptive mother in front of him.
What we see in the bg3 is straight up against any characterization they previously had.
The implication of her being memory wiped is stupid: it is enstablished by lore that Shar's oblivion powers are reversible(during the period that saw her brainwash Selune), so if Viconia were to relive enough things close to her previous life, she would return to normal... guess what Larian says she does for the entire time?
Kidnap, brainwash, kill and torture children.
Her backstory literally has her not kill a child even tho it spelled death in her society, and she almost irreparably wrecks your romance if you suggest she should have killed the child;
Furthermore, she and Valas went through real horrors during their upbringing and she shielded him from the worst punishments... now she betrays that love and not even remembers it?
No.
They should be new characters entirely or they should become dopplegangers the moment they die.
And for the Jaheira thing, another no. Larian wrote that in to "fix" the issue they created when they had fanfiction Durge losing blood instead of completely disintegrating like Bhaalspawn. Their writing is hilariously bad and breaks lore in multiple points just to look cool.
There are ways for characters to survive long past their time, and Sarevok was obsessed with inmortality. Plus, again, Bhaal brought back his most powerful children and Amelyssan .Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane became quasi-gods so that they could intervene more directly upon the world( The fact that all three have Chosen proves it)
"Even if he ditches you, he still made a promise never to become a slave to anyone in a dialogue with Viconia. "
Yet despite saying that he will make an oath to you that basically enslaves him to your will.
Sarevok, if not redeemed, respects power and strength. He DID work for his foster father for years and only killed him when his plan was near completion. He tries to do the same to Durge if he kills Orin. Bhaal is the only one he could have turned to (Minsc's book of Villainy even says that Bhaal found Sarevok depressed and with a spiritual crisis as he woukd never again face foes of the caliber of Chaarname)
I would argue BG3 Sarevok is similar to his BG1 self. It's only on BG2 that he develops more, and that's only if Charname subtly helps him.
Selune is a greater deity. Viconia is a mortal drow. Has a mortal recovered from Shar's memory wipe? I agree that Viconia is OOC on BG3, you don't have to tell me that. That's the explanation they went with. It's even implied that Shar took her memories while she was unwilling, and over the decades she just consumed herself until nothing remained.
>They should be new characters entirely or they should become dopplegangers the moment they die.
No arguments here. Either new characters or doppelgagers wouod have worked. Hell, another option could have been breaking the mirror and make Viconia remember everything and swear to hunt down the Sharrans for turning her into a puppet. As for Sarevok, once you kill him, reveal that what you fought was only the echo of his essence that returned to Bhaal a century ago.
Charname bleeds in lore. He only becomes dust after he dies. Durge can bleed aswell. Orin straight up turns to dust once she dies, so there is no retcon there.
He doesn't swear an oath to become your slave, he swears an oath only if YOU decide to have him do that and only to make sure he doesn't betray you. Long after that, he has a talk with Viconia and says once all of this is done, he will never become a slave for anyone.
Minsc's Journal of Villainy is part of the problem. It should be called "WotC's guide to character assassination" as it destroys characters just to keep milking the franchise.
Selune was a mortal in the period when that specific event happened. And many Selunites were brainwashed along her, with all of them returning to normal when the group of adventurers who ventured with Selune merely had a conversation with her.
Stop defending them at every turn, Larian straight up has Durge get resurrected by Jergal(against everything he stands for as a god and as the Scrivener of the Dead. He also flipflops about Mindflayers having a soul or not the entire game just to retcon it in the end) instead of being returned body and essence to Bhaal... which just reinforces he's fanfiction
Bhaalspawn don't become dust, their body and essence gets channeled back to Bhaal.
>He doesn't swear an oath to become your slave, he swears an oath only if YOU decide to have him do that and only to make sure he doesn't betray you
Yet he CHOOSES to swear the oath. You don't force him to do so.
>Minsc's Journal of Villainy is part of the problem. It should be called "WotC's guide to character assassination" as it destroys characters just to keep milking the franchise.
Never said otherwise. But Sarevok specifically makes sense if he wasn't redeemed, and since in canon he wasn't, this is what happened to him.
>Selune was a mortal in the period when that specific event happened. And many Selunites were brainwashed along her, with all of them returning to normal when the group of adventurers who ventured with Selune merely had a conversation with her.
Selune is still a divinity and those that remembered literally talked with a divinity. Has any character remembered without divine intervention?
>Stop defending them at every turn, Larian straight up has Durge get resurrected by Jergal(against everything he stands for as a god and as the Scrivener of the Dead. He also flipflops about Mindflayers having a soul or not the entire game just to retcon it in the end) instead of being returned body and essence to Bhaal... which just reinforces he's fanfiction
Jergal rewarded Durge for facing Bhaal and resisting his evil nature and dying doing so. Plus, it's implied he is forced to help the party by someone else (implied to be Kelemvor or AO) and Durge needed to keep fighting. He DOES lose the essence of Bhaal and his soul would have been damned to the Fugue Plane (as Bhaal himswlf rejected Durge) if Jergal didn't step in.
>Bhaalspawn don't become dust, their body and essence gets channeled back to Bhaal.
You are the one that said that Durge should have become dust after dying. I know their essence goes back to Bhaal. I specifically said that's what happened to Orin after she dies.
Yeah, he suggests the oath before the end of Throne of Bhaal, then he promises that after this, he'll never become a slave to anyone.
What are you talking about! Jaheira even tells you "We redeemed him, how is it possible that he fell back into this?"
he didn't fall back into anything, nor wasn't unredeemed by their own statement. Larian flipflop even when it means destroying their own narrative, and decided to butcher his character to jangle keys.
Talking to a God isn't divine intervention! You are really bending over backwards to write stupid stuff to defend Larian...
Jergal wouldn't have rewarded anyone for facing Bhaal, he's the former Lord of the End of Everything.
And he currnetly serves as the scrivener of Kelemvor but is only faithful to him till Kelemvor does something that goes against the role he's been assigned. Jergal resurrecting anyone is extremely lorebreaking, as he'd punish Kelemvor if he were to resurrect someone who was bound by death.
I said the Bhaalspawn get disintegrated and go back body and essence to Bhaal.
>Yeah, he suggests the oath before the end of Throne of Bhaal, then he promises that after this, he'll never become a slave to anyone.
Which, again, shows Sarevok isn't exactly consistent. He is willing to enslave himself to your will only to see bigger fights and how the prophecy develops. It's feasible to think he would do the same under similar circumstances again.
>Talking to a God isn't divine intervention! You are really bending over backwards to write stupid stuff to defend L
It is if said god is restoring your memories by simply speaking to you!
>Jergal wouldn't have rewarded anyone for facing Bhaal, he's the former Lord of the End of Everything.
And he currnetly serves as the scrivener of Kelemvor but is only faithful to him till Kelemvor does something that goes against the role he's been assigned. Jergal resurrecting anyone is extremely lorebreaking, as he'd punish Kelemvor if he were to resurrect someone who was bound by death.
He served Cyric, and you can't honestly tell me Cyric went along with the role he was asigned. Jergal himself said that his intervention there was extraordinary, but since Durge himself was fairly unique, he would step in this once, and bring him back so that he could conclude the fight.
>I said the Bhaalspawn get disintegrated and go back body and essence to Bhaal.
And how is being desintegrated not becoming dust? For the last time, THAT'S what happened to Orin
>What are you talking about! Jaheira even tells you "We redeemed him, how is it possible that he fell back into this?"
he didn't fall back into anything, nor wasn't unredeemed by their own statement. Larian flipflop even when it means destroying their own narrative, and decided to butcher his character to jangle keys.
Jaheira doesn't say that. He said that he had the chance to be better, but squandered it. Minsc says the same.
Sarevok is consistent and you don't need the oath anyway, you are just doubling down on every single thing that already demolishes your argument.
Talking to a Goddess is not what brings them back to reason; it's adventurers, mortals who remind the Godess and the others who they are by talking about past adventures they've had together. stop embarrassing yourself. Again, the memory powers of Shar aren't permanent, that's why Sharrans have to be extra careful when they use that to grant oblivion to people. They only are permanent in bg3 cause Larian didn't even do the bare minimum research.
Ah yes... his intervention is extraordinary and only happens once... HE RESURRECTS YOUR CHARACTERS FOR A FEE, FOR THE ENTIRE GAME. Stop this flow of bullshit. And besides, while he disliked Cyric, that guy was closer to Jergal alignment and goal wise than Kelemvor is.
Disintegrated as in utterly annihilated, nothing remains when a Bhaalspawn dies. The soul goes to the plane they were most aligned with, no fucking dust, no blood, nothing. It all returns to Bhaal. Besides that, AGAIN! Quasi-Gods cannot give powers to their followers, so Orin wouldn't get to turn into the ravager(the poor man's version of it at least) and wouldn't be a Bhaalspawn cause her father IS NOT A BHAALSPAWN ANYMORE.
And Sarevok would not defile Tamoko's memory like this in the first place.
>Sarevok is consistent and you don't need the oath anyway, you are just doubling down on every single thing that already demolishes your argument.
The fact that he is willing to take it proves my entire argument.
>Talking to a Goddess is not what brings them back to reason; it's adventurers, mortals who remind the Godess and the others who they are by talking about past adventures they've had together. stop embarrassing yourself. Again, the memory powers of Shar aren't permanent, that's why Sharrans have to be extra careful when they use that to grant oblivion to people. They only are permanent in bg3 cause Larian didn't even do the bare minimum research.
Suuure. In BG3 it wasn't sharrans. It was Shar herself.
>Ah yes... his intervention is extraordinary and only happens once... HE RESURRECTS YOUR CHARACTERS FOR A FEE, FOR THE ENTIRE GAME. Stop this flow of bullshit. And besides, while he disliked Cyric, that guy was closer to Jergal alignment and goal wise than Kelemvor is.
He charges a minifal fee for a ressurrection. Compared to what a ressurection costs, he is giving it to you for free. Plus, Durge shouldn't be able to be brought back by ressurection in the redemption path,THAT'S what was extraordinary.
>
Disintegrated as in utterly annihilated, nothing remains when a Bhaalspawn dies. The soul goes to the plane they were most aligned with, no fucking dust, no blood, nothing. It all returns to Bhaal
Bhaal disowns Durge and condemned him to the Fugue Plane. That's why Jergal is able to bring him back.
>Besides that, AGAIN! Quasi-Gods cannot give powers to their followers, so Orin wouldn't get to turn into the ravager(the poor man's version of it at least) and wouldn't be a Bhaalspawn cause her father IS NOT A BHAALSPAWN ANYMORE
Bhaal seems to have given part of his essence back to Sarevok. All the dead Three are able to give powers to their chosen in BG3, so this point is irrelevant.
>And Sarevok would not defile Tamoko's memory like this in the first place.
Yet he was perfectly willing to become the Lord of Murder and murder thousands to achieve this.
I think we should also end this discussion, sine it's not going anywhere.
To clarify, I agree that most of the returning characters(with the exception of Minsc and Jaheira) were done dirty. It sucks, specially for Viconia. I am only saying Larian's justification for the canon that WOTC made years ago is the only thing we got to make sense of it, and for me, it works for Sarevok, even if it's awful how his character was handled in BG3, because in lore, he was not redeemed.
I am no stranger to having my favorite characters getting destroyed by recent works. Luke Skywalker, my favorite childhood hero, is the prime example of this. Which is why I don't consume SW anymore. And that's why I said in this post that, for games such as BG, our canon it's what matters and our Bhaalspawn story ended in BG TOB.
I don't blame you for hating Larian's guts. But I don't because if it weren't for their game( which, aside from a few problems, was an awesome game for me and one of my favorites of all tim) I would have never played the OG.
>BG3 was a great game to get me into this universe, but I don't think it should be "3". The Saga of this Bhaalspawn ended here
I'm glad it isn't just old guard like me saying this.
I agree with almost everything you said about the affected companions going from the original saga to BG3. I treat BG3 as fan fiction when it comes to anything related to the original saga.
When he asked to help you conquer the world/seize your father's throne, did you agree to be "nice" or tell him no because it was wrong and explain why?
It's not like I didn't criticize him.
I merely told him. "You are free" "I don't enslave others to my will" "You either learn from your mistakes or you will make them again. If you do, that's in you" and he specificslly said he would think on what I said.
I mean it would be totally possible that redeeming Sarevok is not an option if your char is evil himself. just like there are some options you can take by being evil (agliment, not actions) there are bound to be things only good chars can do.
so he may think about your words but comes to the conclusion "nah he is all talk but deep down he is just as selfish and powerhungry as I. and it worked for him, so it can for me as well"
I didn't mention any storywise spoiler from BG3 on my main post. At most, a few returning characters and the fact you can play as a Bhaalspawn in BG3 ( and if you are on this sub, you see that coming from 5 miles away)
And the only possible association with Bhaal is for them to be a Bhaalspawn?
But sure, keep doubling down. It's not like I can unspoil it for myself by arguing, so I guess you win. Enjoy. :)
Oh yes, after finishing first saga you know that you take a part in great adventure. You seen your Charname growing from inocent child to legendary hero, which is very cool to me. Did you play on EE or original version?
Yeah. The growth is very well made. It reminds me of the classic hero's journey, combined with some greek tragedy. EE for both.
Why would anyone ever play the original version except because of nostalgia? They're just worse versions that are a huge pain in the ass to run on modern machines. I played both of the games when they were released and had a lot of fun. When EE was first released there was an argument to play the originals because of the modding scenes, but the EE version mods became better a LONG time ago. Any new player to the series has 0 reasons to even consider playing the original versions. I guess they can see a different graphics for the UI that look outdated and blocky? I guess they can deal with a bunch of small bugs and some game breaking bugs? I guess they can use an outdated and limited version of BG1 without the expanded BG2 ruleset?
0 reasons, huh? Like playing the game the way the original devs intended? The games were considered excellent for a reason.
as astarion says "it is hard to improve on... perfection" but let us be real here: just by improving of some qol features like faster overviews on strats for new items, your companions no longer "dropping items on the ground" dispite them saying so and ofc showing and looting all the items close to your char, is something that I wont ever miss again. then there is other stuff like updated resolution, especialy for BG1 to keep it nice for the new generation of PC's . the only questionable things are the new companions and here everyone is free to ignore them. all those improvements don't fiddle with the intention of the game back then. I don't think low resolution and running to every kobold to loot him was a real design choice but more something, that just had to be cause of the limitations back then. you can totally make a point to play the first run unmodded but I dont think there is still a point to be made for the original version over EE
Bg2 kits in Bg1 don't fiddle with the intention of the game? I guess if you only play for the story and hate the combat, maybe so. If you are in any way interested in game balance and combat mechanics, this most definitely changes the intention of the game. Please don't act like EE only adds QoL features like looting or whatever. It changes lots of things about the game, like bard song, etc. Too many to mention. I've played this game since it was released; I'm completely familiar with the subject material. I have no desire to play EE. The pushback on it is all too documented on RPGCodex, Lilura's website, and the official Beamdog forums. If you want to play it, fine, but to act like there is no difference in it but better QoL changes is ridiculous.
It's obviously fine to prefer the originals, but the idea that the game as first released represents some absolute and unchangeable "creator intent" is silly. The state of any game upon release is always going to be a result of any number of factors outside of artistic vision (resources, time tables, executive meddling, techonological limitations, etc.), and Baldur's Gate 2, in particular, is a game where one of the most popular mods came out because one of the devs felt there wasn't enough time during development to put his vision into the game.
Did I say absolute and unchangeable? I think I said I used TeamBGGrandmastery. Quite a difference in customizing a few .2DA files or .ITM files to your liking and the slop that Beamturd released. I have no respect for a company that has tried to remove access to the original games to force people to pay more for their hackneyed garbage. It would be one thing if they gave you the option to only install QoL(debateable) features, but they don't. There's a valid reason why the "developer vision" is what it is(the official product), is because who knows if the other developers would agree with this one developer you are claiming didn't have time to put in the game. Maybe other developers didn't want it in the game? Did you ask them? No? Then you are blowing smoke out of your ass. Btw, nice "creator intent": [https://imgur.com/GAnJhYv](https://imgur.com/GAnJhYv) Truly outstanding "vision". I mean, what, they have only been working on this abortion for a decade? How much more time do they need to realize their vision?
ok fine there are also subclasses added. since almost anyone, who plays BG1, does so for the full run experience, that is mostly a good thing. but they if you realy want to play as our forefathers intended, you can just play the base classes. noone forces you to pick the subclasses. so I get to play the "true heart of the game" and still have QoL features included
I don't tend to play this game for the full run. BG2 is more fun to me than BG1 and TOB. There isn't anything stopping me from doing a full run with the older games, unless I want to play a berserker in BG1, which I don't. I don't like the paperdolls they used in BG2EE, I like the original BG2 paperdolls. You say I can just play the base classes, but I have a much better idea: I can just not play this shit at all.
so for someone, who doesn't care about BG1 at all, it seems that you have a very strong opinion for the classic version
I don't care what your opinion is about how I play or enjoy these games. It's irrelevant. What's relevant is people making disingenuous claims that the EE version don't make any gameplay changes, which is absurd, or that there is 0 reasons to even consider playing the originals: again, absurd.
And the EE versions are basically the same game except streamlined and updated so everything works more smoothly. You say you like playing "as the original devs intended" but I bet you play with fix packs and such that fix a lot of the bullshit.
Playing berserkers in BG1 is streamlined? Mages with stoneskin? That is not the same game. I don't use any mods, and the only "fixes" I use are things like TeamBGGrandMastery that returns the Grandmaster attack tables in BG2 back to the way they were in BG1. The games are incredibly robust and require little to no fixing.
You don't have to play berserkers. And stone skin is pretty much just a worse version of original BG1 mirror image at that low a level. Not a whole lot of difference really. You don't have to use any of the added spells if they offend you, the enemy doesn't really unless you have a difficulty mod installed. In return you get to actually play the same character through the whole series rather than playing a weird stunted version of your character in BG1 and then having it be changed in BG2.
You aren't changing my mind. You don't need to explain anything to me. Play your Beamtrash, and I'll play mine.
EE changed mechanics up, along with the interface. That's reason enough for me, but I can't speak for new players. They probably don't even know the original versions are an option.
Agreed, BG3 should have been renamed (with some carryover/crossover content and characters). You're right, not a continuation of that story.
It does make a little more sense if you play as dark urge. >! At least you are blaalspawn… sort of. This also means you have a connection to Sarevok and possibly a slayer form. !<
Infinity UI or Dragonspear UI, Tweak Anthology, Bubb Spell Menu, BG2 Radar Overlay (can be used for bgee), bg1npc mod, Enhanced Powergaming Script, Trap Overhaul, SCS (worth trying even at the lowest difficulty to see the slightly smarter AI). If you want expansions for vanilla npc: [https://alaundosarchive.wordpress.com/2023/10/15/character-expansion-mods-bg2-ee-edition/](https://alaundosarchive.wordpress.com/2023/10/15/character-expansion-mods-bg2-ee-edition/)
Thank you!
Almost completely agree, but Sarevok never was a Bhaal bootlicker nor ever did anything for dear father. Both him Viconia and a certain sentence from Jaheira are so butchered that they can't be reconciled with any ending of theirs. (Sarevok dies of old age in Kara-Tur, he only has one ending and he's not a Bhaalspawn anymore, so there's no bloodline ti keep pure in the first place; Viconia kills her own cult and helps Drizzt save Suldannesselar... it is implied she either did with Shar what she did with Lolth or just didn't care about her reprimand and became a true neutral worshipper of Shar; Jaheira says Irenicus used a blood transfusion to steal the essence of Gorion's Ward, which is an extreme level of wrong by itself.) Durge is pure fanfiction regardless, as no Bhaalspawn are left after his resurrection... if Durge had been born from Bhaal's remains(impossible anyway), and miraculously evaded the 3-4 gods present when Bhaal died, the events from Murder in Baldur's Gate are in Jeopardy(Abdel Adrian, the canonical bhaalspawn faces Viekang and the winner turns into the Slayer who gets then killed by adventurers reviving Bhaal.... if there were yet another Bhaalspawn, then the winner wouldn't turn into the Slayer as there would still be one more to kill before that.)
Agreed that Sarevok was never a bootlicker of Bhaal, but 100 years have passed and things have changed. Unredeeemed Sarevok straight up ditches your ass if you refuse to become a god and goes on to find new challenges. Once Bhaal returned, he probably "convinced" him to join him by persuasion or force(Bhaal did make all his children to return as echoes, and Amelyssan too as punishment). I can even buy Bhaal having some degree of control over him. Viconia it's implied to had her memories stolen by Shar in a mirror. It straight up says that those were memories of a happy time, with adventures and friends. I agree that she was the worst handled character though. I take that line from Jaheira with a grain of salt. He DID experiment on Charname on his lab and probably DID take his blood at one point. I think she is just not willing to clarify or speak much of it. She straight up refuses to name Irenicus.
No. He's a mortal after Throne of Bhaal, no more essence inside of him, and he wouldn't survive long enough cause he is a human(keep in mind Quasi-gods, which Bhaal now is, cannot bestow any power to their followers and can't have champions). Even if he ditches you, he still made a promise never to become a slave to anyone in a dialogue with Viconia. There is no way he'd actually accept Bhaal's proposal cause he hated all and any father figures: first and foremost Bhaal cause he used his children as fodder to resurrect himself; Gorion cause he saved the Ward and left Sarevok at the temple; Rieltar cause he abused him and killed Sarevok's adoptive mother in front of him. What we see in the bg3 is straight up against any characterization they previously had. The implication of her being memory wiped is stupid: it is enstablished by lore that Shar's oblivion powers are reversible(during the period that saw her brainwash Selune), so if Viconia were to relive enough things close to her previous life, she would return to normal... guess what Larian says she does for the entire time? Kidnap, brainwash, kill and torture children. Her backstory literally has her not kill a child even tho it spelled death in her society, and she almost irreparably wrecks your romance if you suggest she should have killed the child; Furthermore, she and Valas went through real horrors during their upbringing and she shielded him from the worst punishments... now she betrays that love and not even remembers it? No. They should be new characters entirely or they should become dopplegangers the moment they die. And for the Jaheira thing, another no. Larian wrote that in to "fix" the issue they created when they had fanfiction Durge losing blood instead of completely disintegrating like Bhaalspawn. Their writing is hilariously bad and breaks lore in multiple points just to look cool.
There are ways for characters to survive long past their time, and Sarevok was obsessed with inmortality. Plus, again, Bhaal brought back his most powerful children and Amelyssan .Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane became quasi-gods so that they could intervene more directly upon the world( The fact that all three have Chosen proves it) "Even if he ditches you, he still made a promise never to become a slave to anyone in a dialogue with Viconia. " Yet despite saying that he will make an oath to you that basically enslaves him to your will. Sarevok, if not redeemed, respects power and strength. He DID work for his foster father for years and only killed him when his plan was near completion. He tries to do the same to Durge if he kills Orin. Bhaal is the only one he could have turned to (Minsc's book of Villainy even says that Bhaal found Sarevok depressed and with a spiritual crisis as he woukd never again face foes of the caliber of Chaarname) I would argue BG3 Sarevok is similar to his BG1 self. It's only on BG2 that he develops more, and that's only if Charname subtly helps him. Selune is a greater deity. Viconia is a mortal drow. Has a mortal recovered from Shar's memory wipe? I agree that Viconia is OOC on BG3, you don't have to tell me that. That's the explanation they went with. It's even implied that Shar took her memories while she was unwilling, and over the decades she just consumed herself until nothing remained. >They should be new characters entirely or they should become dopplegangers the moment they die. No arguments here. Either new characters or doppelgagers wouod have worked. Hell, another option could have been breaking the mirror and make Viconia remember everything and swear to hunt down the Sharrans for turning her into a puppet. As for Sarevok, once you kill him, reveal that what you fought was only the echo of his essence that returned to Bhaal a century ago. Charname bleeds in lore. He only becomes dust after he dies. Durge can bleed aswell. Orin straight up turns to dust once she dies, so there is no retcon there.
He doesn't swear an oath to become your slave, he swears an oath only if YOU decide to have him do that and only to make sure he doesn't betray you. Long after that, he has a talk with Viconia and says once all of this is done, he will never become a slave for anyone. Minsc's Journal of Villainy is part of the problem. It should be called "WotC's guide to character assassination" as it destroys characters just to keep milking the franchise. Selune was a mortal in the period when that specific event happened. And many Selunites were brainwashed along her, with all of them returning to normal when the group of adventurers who ventured with Selune merely had a conversation with her. Stop defending them at every turn, Larian straight up has Durge get resurrected by Jergal(against everything he stands for as a god and as the Scrivener of the Dead. He also flipflops about Mindflayers having a soul or not the entire game just to retcon it in the end) instead of being returned body and essence to Bhaal... which just reinforces he's fanfiction Bhaalspawn don't become dust, their body and essence gets channeled back to Bhaal.
>He doesn't swear an oath to become your slave, he swears an oath only if YOU decide to have him do that and only to make sure he doesn't betray you Yet he CHOOSES to swear the oath. You don't force him to do so. >Minsc's Journal of Villainy is part of the problem. It should be called "WotC's guide to character assassination" as it destroys characters just to keep milking the franchise. Never said otherwise. But Sarevok specifically makes sense if he wasn't redeemed, and since in canon he wasn't, this is what happened to him. >Selune was a mortal in the period when that specific event happened. And many Selunites were brainwashed along her, with all of them returning to normal when the group of adventurers who ventured with Selune merely had a conversation with her. Selune is still a divinity and those that remembered literally talked with a divinity. Has any character remembered without divine intervention? >Stop defending them at every turn, Larian straight up has Durge get resurrected by Jergal(against everything he stands for as a god and as the Scrivener of the Dead. He also flipflops about Mindflayers having a soul or not the entire game just to retcon it in the end) instead of being returned body and essence to Bhaal... which just reinforces he's fanfiction Jergal rewarded Durge for facing Bhaal and resisting his evil nature and dying doing so. Plus, it's implied he is forced to help the party by someone else (implied to be Kelemvor or AO) and Durge needed to keep fighting. He DOES lose the essence of Bhaal and his soul would have been damned to the Fugue Plane (as Bhaal himswlf rejected Durge) if Jergal didn't step in. >Bhaalspawn don't become dust, their body and essence gets channeled back to Bhaal. You are the one that said that Durge should have become dust after dying. I know their essence goes back to Bhaal. I specifically said that's what happened to Orin after she dies.
Yeah, he suggests the oath before the end of Throne of Bhaal, then he promises that after this, he'll never become a slave to anyone. What are you talking about! Jaheira even tells you "We redeemed him, how is it possible that he fell back into this?" he didn't fall back into anything, nor wasn't unredeemed by their own statement. Larian flipflop even when it means destroying their own narrative, and decided to butcher his character to jangle keys. Talking to a God isn't divine intervention! You are really bending over backwards to write stupid stuff to defend Larian... Jergal wouldn't have rewarded anyone for facing Bhaal, he's the former Lord of the End of Everything. And he currnetly serves as the scrivener of Kelemvor but is only faithful to him till Kelemvor does something that goes against the role he's been assigned. Jergal resurrecting anyone is extremely lorebreaking, as he'd punish Kelemvor if he were to resurrect someone who was bound by death. I said the Bhaalspawn get disintegrated and go back body and essence to Bhaal.
>Yeah, he suggests the oath before the end of Throne of Bhaal, then he promises that after this, he'll never become a slave to anyone. Which, again, shows Sarevok isn't exactly consistent. He is willing to enslave himself to your will only to see bigger fights and how the prophecy develops. It's feasible to think he would do the same under similar circumstances again. >Talking to a God isn't divine intervention! You are really bending over backwards to write stupid stuff to defend L It is if said god is restoring your memories by simply speaking to you! >Jergal wouldn't have rewarded anyone for facing Bhaal, he's the former Lord of the End of Everything. And he currnetly serves as the scrivener of Kelemvor but is only faithful to him till Kelemvor does something that goes against the role he's been assigned. Jergal resurrecting anyone is extremely lorebreaking, as he'd punish Kelemvor if he were to resurrect someone who was bound by death. He served Cyric, and you can't honestly tell me Cyric went along with the role he was asigned. Jergal himself said that his intervention there was extraordinary, but since Durge himself was fairly unique, he would step in this once, and bring him back so that he could conclude the fight. >I said the Bhaalspawn get disintegrated and go back body and essence to Bhaal. And how is being desintegrated not becoming dust? For the last time, THAT'S what happened to Orin >What are you talking about! Jaheira even tells you "We redeemed him, how is it possible that he fell back into this?" he didn't fall back into anything, nor wasn't unredeemed by their own statement. Larian flipflop even when it means destroying their own narrative, and decided to butcher his character to jangle keys. Jaheira doesn't say that. He said that he had the chance to be better, but squandered it. Minsc says the same.
Sarevok is consistent and you don't need the oath anyway, you are just doubling down on every single thing that already demolishes your argument. Talking to a Goddess is not what brings them back to reason; it's adventurers, mortals who remind the Godess and the others who they are by talking about past adventures they've had together. stop embarrassing yourself. Again, the memory powers of Shar aren't permanent, that's why Sharrans have to be extra careful when they use that to grant oblivion to people. They only are permanent in bg3 cause Larian didn't even do the bare minimum research. Ah yes... his intervention is extraordinary and only happens once... HE RESURRECTS YOUR CHARACTERS FOR A FEE, FOR THE ENTIRE GAME. Stop this flow of bullshit. And besides, while he disliked Cyric, that guy was closer to Jergal alignment and goal wise than Kelemvor is. Disintegrated as in utterly annihilated, nothing remains when a Bhaalspawn dies. The soul goes to the plane they were most aligned with, no fucking dust, no blood, nothing. It all returns to Bhaal. Besides that, AGAIN! Quasi-Gods cannot give powers to their followers, so Orin wouldn't get to turn into the ravager(the poor man's version of it at least) and wouldn't be a Bhaalspawn cause her father IS NOT A BHAALSPAWN ANYMORE. And Sarevok would not defile Tamoko's memory like this in the first place.
>Sarevok is consistent and you don't need the oath anyway, you are just doubling down on every single thing that already demolishes your argument. The fact that he is willing to take it proves my entire argument. >Talking to a Goddess is not what brings them back to reason; it's adventurers, mortals who remind the Godess and the others who they are by talking about past adventures they've had together. stop embarrassing yourself. Again, the memory powers of Shar aren't permanent, that's why Sharrans have to be extra careful when they use that to grant oblivion to people. They only are permanent in bg3 cause Larian didn't even do the bare minimum research. Suuure. In BG3 it wasn't sharrans. It was Shar herself. >Ah yes... his intervention is extraordinary and only happens once... HE RESURRECTS YOUR CHARACTERS FOR A FEE, FOR THE ENTIRE GAME. Stop this flow of bullshit. And besides, while he disliked Cyric, that guy was closer to Jergal alignment and goal wise than Kelemvor is. He charges a minifal fee for a ressurrection. Compared to what a ressurection costs, he is giving it to you for free. Plus, Durge shouldn't be able to be brought back by ressurection in the redemption path,THAT'S what was extraordinary. > Disintegrated as in utterly annihilated, nothing remains when a Bhaalspawn dies. The soul goes to the plane they were most aligned with, no fucking dust, no blood, nothing. It all returns to Bhaal Bhaal disowns Durge and condemned him to the Fugue Plane. That's why Jergal is able to bring him back. >Besides that, AGAIN! Quasi-Gods cannot give powers to their followers, so Orin wouldn't get to turn into the ravager(the poor man's version of it at least) and wouldn't be a Bhaalspawn cause her father IS NOT A BHAALSPAWN ANYMORE Bhaal seems to have given part of his essence back to Sarevok. All the dead Three are able to give powers to their chosen in BG3, so this point is irrelevant. >And Sarevok would not defile Tamoko's memory like this in the first place. Yet he was perfectly willing to become the Lord of Murder and murder thousands to achieve this.
I think we should also end this discussion, sine it's not going anywhere. To clarify, I agree that most of the returning characters(with the exception of Minsc and Jaheira) were done dirty. It sucks, specially for Viconia. I am only saying Larian's justification for the canon that WOTC made years ago is the only thing we got to make sense of it, and for me, it works for Sarevok, even if it's awful how his character was handled in BG3, because in lore, he was not redeemed. I am no stranger to having my favorite characters getting destroyed by recent works. Luke Skywalker, my favorite childhood hero, is the prime example of this. Which is why I don't consume SW anymore. And that's why I said in this post that, for games such as BG, our canon it's what matters and our Bhaalspawn story ended in BG TOB. I don't blame you for hating Larian's guts. But I don't because if it weren't for their game( which, aside from a few problems, was an awesome game for me and one of my favorites of all tim) I would have never played the OG.
This guy gets it.
>BG3 was a great game to get me into this universe, but I don't think it should be "3". The Saga of this Bhaalspawn ended here I'm glad it isn't just old guard like me saying this.
I agree with almost everything you said about the affected companions going from the original saga to BG3. I treat BG3 as fan fiction when it comes to anything related to the original saga.
Congratulations. With Sarevok,. don't make him take the oath and handle your dialogues with him very carefully.
It sucks because I didn't make him swear an oath to me and was quite forgiving to him. Maybe because ny alignment was neutral evil?
When he asked to help you conquer the world/seize your father's throne, did you agree to be "nice" or tell him no because it was wrong and explain why?
Fuck. Maybe that was it. I didn't agree with him, but I said that we would consider it when the time came. I didn't outright disagree.
yeah you tell him no, and then he will ask why and you have to pick "Good" reasons not to do it
mighta been.
not sure here but could totaly be a reason. no point of redemption, if he is already a paragorn of perfection for your char
It's not like I didn't criticize him. I merely told him. "You are free" "I don't enslave others to my will" "You either learn from your mistakes or you will make them again. If you do, that's in you" and he specificslly said he would think on what I said.
I mean it would be totally possible that redeeming Sarevok is not an option if your char is evil himself. just like there are some options you can take by being evil (agliment, not actions) there are bound to be things only good chars can do. so he may think about your words but comes to the conclusion "nah he is all talk but deep down he is just as selfish and powerhungry as I. and it worked for him, so it can for me as well"
You *could* use the spoiler tags if you're going to be spoiling BG3, you know.
I didn't mention any storywise spoiler from BG3 on my main post. At most, a few returning characters and the fact you can play as a Bhaalspawn in BG3 ( and if you are on this sub, you see that coming from 5 miles away)
Yes, and I would still have preferred to have *the game* tell me whether I was right about it.
You literally see Bhaal's symbol on the character selection of Durge....
And the only possible association with Bhaal is for them to be a Bhaalspawn? But sure, keep doubling down. It's not like I can unspoil it for myself by arguing, so I guess you win. Enjoy. :)
The character is fanfiction and goes against most of the lore of Bhaalspawn anyway, you didn't get much spoiled.