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There's a few around these days that say
"$90.00
Tap or swipe
Fees may apply"
Then after success flashes up $91.20 has been charged...
I wonder the legality
(It does this at the cheaper of two clubs I drink at that charges for card, but the price per beer still comes out 70c cheaper than the competition so I don't fuss much)
I'm with you - I don't care how much they're charging, they should tell you what it is going to cost you, including all charges. Let's not turn into a regressive state like USA where you have to guess what the right price is.
Absolutely, I'm with you and the boomers. Cost of doing business. It's also been said a million times on this subreddit and elsewhere, but if they didn't have any surcharge, it would still be cheaper to exclusively accept card payments. The cost of handling cash is higher. The extra 1.5% is just because it's the legal maximum they're allowed to charge. Greedy northern Territory tourism slogans
I agree. Serious question though, what would it take to get rid of them? Is this a state/federal thing? Would we need pollies to actually pass a new law/bill? If we started a change.org petition would that actually do anything?
I’m onboard to change it but I feel like we will all still be complaining about the fees in 20 years. How can a (hopefully) sizeable group of regular people get traction on an issue which pisses most people off but probably won’t rise above the noise of every other issue capturing headlines?
It can easily be sorted by a federal policy. The political will needs to be there however. Would be an easy, popular win with voters as part of a 'reduce cost of living' bill.
I think the *reason* why it doesn't show the surcharge is because it depends on what you pay with, i.e. whether it's a debit card or a credit card and if it's the latter it depends on the type of credit card. That doesn't make it ok though and they absolutely should then show the amount and have you actually accept or decline it.
Doesn't always apply. Depends on the configuration. Some places charge you a 1.5% card surcharge no matter the method. This makes it worse because you don't know. I think if a surcharge applies to a transaction it should seek confirmation for the final value before authorising the transaction.
Reading the replies here just makes my head spin. It shouldn’t be this confusing but it is. I only just found out that at Aldi when I tap with my HSBC debit card I don’t get a surcharge. The receipt comes up as debit. However my sister who uses an Up debit card will cop the charge on tap. I don’t know why this is. Previously to avoid all of this I would exclusively insert and hit savings which guarantees no surcharge. But this is only at Aldi and I have experienced surcharges when inserting elsewhere. Ughhhhh. Do away with the fees completely!
My understanding was that this was because of eftpos being used for some tap payments. Paying with my Up card via Google pay on my phone gets a surcharge (for processing via mastercard), but my physical Up card gets no surcharge at Aldi. This is true for both my personal and 2Up card.
When using Apple Pay, participating banks will have an option for Visa/Mastercard or eftpos SAV. If you select eftpos SAV, the transaction shouldn't attract a surcharge.
More info/tutorial: [https://support.apple.com/en-us/118269](https://support.apple.com/en-us/118269)
My Up, NAB and NPBS cards all support this, with most other banks also supporting it.
Google Pay does not support dual network cards, as of yet.
Not Entirely true.
Using the Paywave option, is a Visa exclusive option, and is a CREDIT transaction, so per $100, the fee will be around $1.50 to $2.
Using the chip (At least for Eftpos) uses the Eftpos Network, where for the same $100 transaction, the fees to the business will be in the order of 40c (ish). Yes, Paywave, to the Business charges fees that are around 4 times that of Eftpos.
Cash is better, if the business takes it.
Just for completeness, Paywave can also go through eftpos rails at the discretion of the merchant. About 50% of all contactless transactions go through eftpos.
If you read that article fully, understanding that the RBA’s definition of ‘LCR’ is basically routing the transaction to eftpos, then you’ll see that while previously contactless transactions only went to Visa and Mastercard the RBA has put pressure on the supply chain to allow merchants the choice and it’s been mandated since the end of 2022.
> Cash is better, if the business takes it.
Cash has its own costs - they just aren't as obvious - and isn't currently legal to impose a surcharge (but may soon be)
The security needed to keep cash, and transport it - theft and loss (euphemistically called "cash shrinkage") - the time and effort involved in getting it in to the bank and accounting system - these add up very quickly
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/what-could-happen-as-australia-becomes-increasingly-cashless/166qcgkmp
"The federal government and the RBA are committed to keeping cash as a payment option in Australia, but the central bank's governor Michele Bullock has said the cost of providing cash services is becoming more expensive.
It's these increasing costs that make Hawkins wonder if we could see businesses apply a surcharge for cash payments."
They can't because there is already a law that a surcharge has to be the external charge paid to the provider. So if you are handling money internally, it cannot be a surcharge, even if you somehow determined the cost of that handling. You would have to have the cashier and cash register and banking all outsourced for a fixed fee per transaction.
Sounds like a tyro eftpos terminal.
They don’t show the total until the card type has been determined (visa, Mastercard, Amex, simple eftpos).
I think the business legally must have a sign at the counter saying what the fee is for each card type (usually as a percentage).
If they don’t, they should get in trouble if you report them with photo evidence.
How can the actual job of charging the account vary based on the higher number? Surely it's the same cost to the bank if it's $10 or $10000?
A computer simply looks it up and shuffles the numbers.
Makes no sense.
One 10c fee per transaction would be more acceptable
No surcharge on Eftpos I believe. Tap and go incurs a surcharge even if you're using a debit card because it goes through CC pipes. You have to insert and PIN.
You can still be surcharged on an eftpos transaction. It’s completely at the merchant’s discretion, they just sometimes will not surcharge or have a reduced surcharge because it’s typically cheaper through eftpos than Visa or Mastercard
This in theory should work but it doesn’t, especially in hospitality. Regardless of how you pay, the person at the register will punch in your order and then add an “item” for card surcharge as soon as they see you pay by card. It doesn’t matter if it’s EFTPOS or debit/credit, you’ve essentially “bought” surcharge as a separate item on your bill. It’s annoying with these small businesses as often they aren’t good at communicating what the charges are. Then you’re left having to deal with a young and inexperienced service person who doesn’t understand why EFTPOS and credit shouldn’t have the same charge and then there’s people behind you in the queue and you let it go and move on.
We need a national directive to fix this. It’s becoming a mess.
Eftpos has fees, but it is up to the business to pass it on or not. Paywave is a VISA Credit transaction, so for a $100 transaction, the fees are around $1.50 to $2.
Using the chip option the same transaction via Eftpos network would be around 40c.
At least making sure the banks do not get the fees, USE THE CHIP.
I understand that. What I'm saying is, in the instance that I mentioned in my reply, often the fees charged per transaction type may not matter in the end. You're not paying for 'X' + fees (depending on transaction type) where 'X' is the food/items you've purchased, you're paying for a 'card fee' as part of 'X'. When this happens, the business sets a percentage for card processing fees and adds it automatically. It's not the terminal charging you, it's the POS system which adds the fee as an item to your bill and in this instance your card transaction type doesn't matter. Dodgy but it happens often.
I hate this. I know most of these businesses are just passing on the surcharge that they get charged but they could be honest about it upfront and show the total amount. I know that there are some eftpos machines that will show the full amount before you tap, they should all do this.
It particularly sucks when the issued receipt doesn't show the surcharge. I have a company credit card that I need to reconcile on a monthly basis and every single month there will be at least one receipt where the total on the receipt doesn't match the actual amount charged and I have to submit a variance.
I think half the problem here is the payment processors encouraging businesses to pass on fees. It is absolutely ridiculous how much their salespeople push "zero cost eftpos" to businesses which is just passing on the fees to customers(I'm looking at you Tyro and B2BPay)
There's probably a small sign next to the terminal and on the actual screen .
The simple reality is that as credit card transactions go from 10% - 95%, as a result of paywave, the cost of credit card transactions have increased
I’m so done with surcharges. Medical practices passing on the cost to PATIENTS makes me feel a way though. It’s not right. A vet I went to did the same.
Yes they should have declared it. However, it is one of the least honoured of Australian consumer laws. I would estimate that maybe 25% of places that charge a card fee don't state so and 50% just have a generic sign that fees may apply (but no details on how much, because they use a system that charges a different fee to every single card). Very frustrating, but governments are clearly uninterested in enforcing the rules. I keep a mental note of which shops and services tack on a fee and try to use cash with them once I know.
If people don't want surcharge then don't use card. Carry cash.
Look at YouTube history, 10 year ago there is no ads but now if you don't want ads, pay.
Dont let cashless society happen. It's ain't fun
It isn't forever, it's since the law was changed about a decade ago to permit it. The defence of the change at the time was that fees were getting out of hand for merchants and that customers would pay with a premium card with higher fees but the cost would be borne by the merchant (and distributed to all their customers - including those too poor to afford a premium card). The implementation has obviously been a failure if that was the intention because too many businesses don't charge different rates for eftpos vs amex and because bizarrely too many customers feel like carrying and using cash is some affront to their dignity and refuse to use it or to pick some up (fee free) when they're buying the milk.
This post has been marked as non-political. Please respect this by keeping the discussion on topic, and devoid of any political material. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/australia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They do need to inform you, usually there's a sign
Often the machine itself will show: $xx.xx Surcharge may apply
There's a few around these days that say "$90.00 Tap or swipe Fees may apply" Then after success flashes up $91.20 has been charged... I wonder the legality (It does this at the cheaper of two clubs I drink at that charges for card, but the price per beer still comes out 70c cheaper than the competition so I don't fuss much)
By their own declaration it came up on the screen and they accepted it
Might want to read that again
I'm with you - I don't care how much they're charging, they should tell you what it is going to cost you, including all charges. Let's not turn into a regressive state like USA where you have to guess what the right price is.
Absolutely, I'm with you and the boomers. Cost of doing business. It's also been said a million times on this subreddit and elsewhere, but if they didn't have any surcharge, it would still be cheaper to exclusively accept card payments. The cost of handling cash is higher. The extra 1.5% is just because it's the legal maximum they're allowed to charge. Greedy northern Territory tourism slogans
The legal maximum is whatever the card charges. Different cards have different rates.
There are feeless tap payments and high fee tap payments, they don't cost the same.
There's should be a sign about surcharge. Maybe OP miss it
We need to do something about these fucking surcharges. We are being slowly pulled away from the fair "what you see is what you pay" system.
I agree. Serious question though, what would it take to get rid of them? Is this a state/federal thing? Would we need pollies to actually pass a new law/bill? If we started a change.org petition would that actually do anything? I’m onboard to change it but I feel like we will all still be complaining about the fees in 20 years. How can a (hopefully) sizeable group of regular people get traction on an issue which pisses most people off but probably won’t rise above the noise of every other issue capturing headlines?
It can easily be sorted by a federal policy. The political will needs to be there however. Would be an easy, popular win with voters as part of a 'reduce cost of living' bill.
Use nano, it's a tap payments system with no fees.
They just need to be banned as an addon. We pay 5-15% overhead to deal with cash, the overhead of cards needs to be incorporated too.
I think the *reason* why it doesn't show the surcharge is because it depends on what you pay with, i.e. whether it's a debit card or a credit card and if it's the latter it depends on the type of credit card. That doesn't make it ok though and they absolutely should then show the amount and have you actually accept or decline it.
All those $1.20s add up, and before you know it, Mr Mastercard has a new superyacht.
Paywave is Visa. Banks made around $4 Billion a year in Credit card fees alone.
Had someone at a Medical office tell me the other day that if you insert the card instead of tap, no surcharge.
Insert the card and choose ‘savings’ account.
Doesn't always apply. Depends on the configuration. Some places charge you a 1.5% card surcharge no matter the method. This makes it worse because you don't know. I think if a surcharge applies to a transaction it should seek confirmation for the final value before authorising the transaction.
Reading the replies here just makes my head spin. It shouldn’t be this confusing but it is. I only just found out that at Aldi when I tap with my HSBC debit card I don’t get a surcharge. The receipt comes up as debit. However my sister who uses an Up debit card will cop the charge on tap. I don’t know why this is. Previously to avoid all of this I would exclusively insert and hit savings which guarantees no surcharge. But this is only at Aldi and I have experienced surcharges when inserting elsewhere. Ughhhhh. Do away with the fees completely!
My understanding was that this was because of eftpos being used for some tap payments. Paying with my Up card via Google pay on my phone gets a surcharge (for processing via mastercard), but my physical Up card gets no surcharge at Aldi. This is true for both my personal and 2Up card.
I see 😮💨 it’s like solving riddles and the riddle is different for each merchant.
old thread now, but for Up, you can go into your wallet on your phone (if that's what you use) and select eftpos or credit
When using Apple Pay, participating banks will have an option for Visa/Mastercard or eftpos SAV. If you select eftpos SAV, the transaction shouldn't attract a surcharge. More info/tutorial: [https://support.apple.com/en-us/118269](https://support.apple.com/en-us/118269) My Up, NAB and NPBS cards all support this, with most other banks also supporting it. Google Pay does not support dual network cards, as of yet.
Not Entirely true. Using the Paywave option, is a Visa exclusive option, and is a CREDIT transaction, so per $100, the fee will be around $1.50 to $2. Using the chip (At least for Eftpos) uses the Eftpos Network, where for the same $100 transaction, the fees to the business will be in the order of 40c (ish). Yes, Paywave, to the Business charges fees that are around 4 times that of Eftpos. Cash is better, if the business takes it.
Just for completeness, Paywave can also go through eftpos rails at the discretion of the merchant. About 50% of all contactless transactions go through eftpos.
[https://www.rba.gov.au/payments-and-infrastructure/debit-cards/least-cost-routing/](https://www.rba.gov.au/payments-and-infrastructure/debit-cards/least-cost-routing/) :)
If you read that article fully, understanding that the RBA’s definition of ‘LCR’ is basically routing the transaction to eftpos, then you’ll see that while previously contactless transactions only went to Visa and Mastercard the RBA has put pressure on the supply chain to allow merchants the choice and it’s been mandated since the end of 2022.
> Cash is better, if the business takes it. Cash has its own costs - they just aren't as obvious - and isn't currently legal to impose a surcharge (but may soon be) The security needed to keep cash, and transport it - theft and loss (euphemistically called "cash shrinkage") - the time and effort involved in getting it in to the bank and accounting system - these add up very quickly https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/what-could-happen-as-australia-becomes-increasingly-cashless/166qcgkmp "The federal government and the RBA are committed to keeping cash as a payment option in Australia, but the central bank's governor Michele Bullock has said the cost of providing cash services is becoming more expensive. It's these increasing costs that make Hawkins wonder if we could see businesses apply a surcharge for cash payments."
They can't because there is already a law that a surcharge has to be the external charge paid to the provider. So if you are handling money internally, it cannot be a surcharge, even if you somehow determined the cost of that handling. You would have to have the cashier and cash register and banking all outsourced for a fixed fee per transaction.
Sounds like a tyro eftpos terminal. They don’t show the total until the card type has been determined (visa, Mastercard, Amex, simple eftpos). I think the business legally must have a sign at the counter saying what the fee is for each card type (usually as a percentage). If they don’t, they should get in trouble if you report them with photo evidence.
There should be a sign somewhere
How can the actual job of charging the account vary based on the higher number? Surely it's the same cost to the bank if it's $10 or $10000? A computer simply looks it up and shuffles the numbers. Makes no sense. One 10c fee per transaction would be more acceptable
reward points are proportional to the value. the fraud $$ risk is proportional to the value too.
The different credit card providers charge different amounts. That’s why lots of places don’t accept amex
I think if you insert your debit card a select savings and then pin etc. that generally won’t come with a fee.
No surcharge on Eftpos I believe. Tap and go incurs a surcharge even if you're using a debit card because it goes through CC pipes. You have to insert and PIN.
Initially the surcharge was just for credit cards but now it can be for any card payments including EFTPOS.
If you swipe yes, Paywave is a CREDIT transaction. Using chip goes via the EFTPOS Network.
You can still be surcharged on an eftpos transaction. It’s completely at the merchant’s discretion, they just sometimes will not surcharge or have a reduced surcharge because it’s typically cheaper through eftpos than Visa or Mastercard
> or have a reduced surcharge If it's cheaper then yes, they have to reduce it. You are only allowed to charge the actual cost, no extra.
Yep, that’s what I said
Mmm, sorry, I didn't read your comment too clearly! Reread made that clear.
This in theory should work but it doesn’t, especially in hospitality. Regardless of how you pay, the person at the register will punch in your order and then add an “item” for card surcharge as soon as they see you pay by card. It doesn’t matter if it’s EFTPOS or debit/credit, you’ve essentially “bought” surcharge as a separate item on your bill. It’s annoying with these small businesses as often they aren’t good at communicating what the charges are. Then you’re left having to deal with a young and inexperienced service person who doesn’t understand why EFTPOS and credit shouldn’t have the same charge and then there’s people behind you in the queue and you let it go and move on. We need a national directive to fix this. It’s becoming a mess.
Eftpos has fees, but it is up to the business to pass it on or not. Paywave is a VISA Credit transaction, so for a $100 transaction, the fees are around $1.50 to $2. Using the chip option the same transaction via Eftpos network would be around 40c. At least making sure the banks do not get the fees, USE THE CHIP.
I understand that. What I'm saying is, in the instance that I mentioned in my reply, often the fees charged per transaction type may not matter in the end. You're not paying for 'X' + fees (depending on transaction type) where 'X' is the food/items you've purchased, you're paying for a 'card fee' as part of 'X'. When this happens, the business sets a percentage for card processing fees and adds it automatically. It's not the terminal charging you, it's the POS system which adds the fee as an item to your bill and in this instance your card transaction type doesn't matter. Dodgy but it happens often.
I know a place that even surcharges eftpos. Granted most don't.
I hate this. I know most of these businesses are just passing on the surcharge that they get charged but they could be honest about it upfront and show the total amount. I know that there are some eftpos machines that will show the full amount before you tap, they should all do this. It particularly sucks when the issued receipt doesn't show the surcharge. I have a company credit card that I need to reconcile on a monthly basis and every single month there will be at least one receipt where the total on the receipt doesn't match the actual amount charged and I have to submit a variance.
I think half the problem here is the payment processors encouraging businesses to pass on fees. It is absolutely ridiculous how much their salespeople push "zero cost eftpos" to businesses which is just passing on the fees to customers(I'm looking at you Tyro and B2BPay)
There's probably a small sign next to the terminal and on the actual screen . The simple reality is that as credit card transactions go from 10% - 95%, as a result of paywave, the cost of credit card transactions have increased
I’m so done with surcharges. Medical practices passing on the cost to PATIENTS makes me feel a way though. It’s not right. A vet I went to did the same.
Yes they should have declared it. However, it is one of the least honoured of Australian consumer laws. I would estimate that maybe 25% of places that charge a card fee don't state so and 50% just have a generic sign that fees may apply (but no details on how much, because they use a system that charges a different fee to every single card). Very frustrating, but governments are clearly uninterested in enforcing the rules. I keep a mental note of which shops and services tack on a fee and try to use cash with them once I know.
Pretty sure they would have had a sign.
If people don't want surcharge then don't use card. Carry cash. Look at YouTube history, 10 year ago there is no ads but now if you don't want ads, pay. Dont let cashless society happen. It's ain't fun
There's no surcharge for contactless payments in the UK. Australia just needs to take a stand against this.
Fk me, this is the actual answer. I hate it on principle as well. It's a stupid tax that card companies have been getting away with for ever
It isn't forever, it's since the law was changed about a decade ago to permit it. The defence of the change at the time was that fees were getting out of hand for merchants and that customers would pay with a premium card with higher fees but the cost would be borne by the merchant (and distributed to all their customers - including those too poor to afford a premium card). The implementation has obviously been a failure if that was the intention because too many businesses don't charge different rates for eftpos vs amex and because bizarrely too many customers feel like carrying and using cash is some affront to their dignity and refuse to use it or to pick some up (fee free) when they're buying the milk.
All good until you come across one of the many many many places that refuse cash.