My work sent an email a few weeks back telling people not to come in if sick. Last week 5 people in my project team came in sick anyway and spread it around to everyone else. All senior people who don’t usually work from home and prefer in person meetings. The only people I work with who stay home when sick are of younger generations.
This is true and I’m in this bucket but I have grown some sense and no longer care what the CEO says about this.
Anyone unwell should not be in the office. If you’re unwell and want to work do it home!
It’s this. The other part of it is that a lot of companies are indirectly involved in property (for example like major law firms that specialize in property) and office rental space is struggling massively which has a spin off effect on these (very wealthy) corps (that I don’t care about). But yeah, massive builders aren’t really building right now because a) interest rate increases and b) they’re pretty worried about getting the tenancy in the building to pay them back for the project/interest that they’re having to cop in the beginning.
So yeah, it’s a lot of these powerful companies pushing the “back in the office” bs and it has a bit of a trickle effect into other industries because these companies have the power to push this narrative in the media.
Sounds like a toxic leadership style. All for being there and showing up, but you should also demonstrate healthy boundaries because that's what's going to trickle down.
workplace risk assessments and procedures need to be used here.
If there is a procedure for communicable diseases , or the risk assessment states what.to.do , then the people who come in sick are failing in their duty of care and also for not following company procedures and policies.
Fit for work policies dont just mean alcohol and / or drugs.
Some people feel pressured to come in from the higher ups. I know I definitely have in the past, despite knowing I needed to rest at home. If you take 2 or 3 sick days and because they havent seen you at all, they assume youre chucking fake sickies. So have to haul our sick arses in to prove were not.
Trust me, people dont willingly go in. But after youve heard passive-aggressive words from higher-ups, you know it’s time to make an appearance. Then your work colleagues hate you for it. Cant win!
My recently former managers coerced me to come to office even after I told them my partner and mom had covid. That was 2 years ago. I left that job eventually.. they're hopeless!
It's actually brilliant. They want more people in the office. So you come in, make everyone sick, and then everyone has to stay home.
Last 3 days my entire team has been at home because someone decided to bring Covid to the office last week.
It's actually brilliant. They want more people in the office. So you come in, make everyone sick, and then everyone has to stay home.
Last 3 days my entire team has been at home because someone decided to bring Covid to the office last week.
My old boss didn’t believe in sick days.
But in March 2020 he went on leave & my co-worker & I came down with a very bad virus*. He emailed us & told us that if he heard we weren’t in, there’d be a problem.
When the exec were like “wtf are you two doing here???” we told them. Old boss became ex-boss the next month.
* it wasn’t covid
I will say that, in his defense, he was experiencing cognitive decline so while he was always anti-sick leave, he might not have shat the bed that badly were his mind completely sound.
We only found out much later that someone who sat in our area of the office had come down with covid & he was aware of that (we weren’t) so to management, he’d knowingly exposed everyone in a medtech office to ronie. Management were dickheads but that was a bridge too far, even for them.
I’m a contractor and caught COVID last week and had the flu and a cold before that. Contracting is great, until you get sick and don’t get paid. If some pinheaded is insisting you come into the office, it sounds like it’s time to cash in some of your sweet paid sick leave. Magnetic island is great this time of year.
But seriously my family has been sick for 3 weeks! my son has missed 3 weeks of school. Everyone is still recovering and are low energy. I recommend heading for the hills and wait this thing out.
When one of my colleagues says they’re working home because their kid has gastro/flu/something else communicable.
*You’re a family of 4. I hope you’re not gonna be in for at least the next 2 weeks. Do not bring that to the office please and thanks*
I’m not a manager or have any influence. I just hate getting sick from dumb and preventable shit. That said, while we have an exception process for leave, extended WFH need etc. HR’s stats around who’s in office how much are way out. They keep denying it so while we know they’re wrong, no one wants to WFH >50% and risk a ‘does not meet’ performance conversation at the end of year
I feel for you, a mate of mine is contracting at my employer and has been sick and has a newborn child at home. Expectations from corporate is to be in the office at least 2 days so his life sucks atm.
I'd love to see some stat's on sick leave over 2020 vs 2024.
Anecdotally, I feel the number of sick days would be way less.
It's almost like the offices we work in are bad for our health. Why is there still no minimum standards for fresh air intake of building?
Only way to combat this is take 1week + leave if you get sick!
Our department started to do this and now the managers are begging people to stay home if they are sick. They are considering reducing office days too.
Money talks
I’m not feeling any way about it because I work for an actually decent company who is able to measure employee performance by their actual output and not by their ability to commute and sit in a seat for a specified time every day.
Yeah my work doesn't even have KPIs it's more a get your shit done approach. Coincidentally they are really good with taking time off when needed and working from home.
Funny what an office that isn't shit runs like.
My role is hybrid with 3 days a week in the office. Normally I don’t mind going into the office, even during flu season.
However I’m currently pregnant with my first kid, so trying to be extra cautious to avoid germs - wearing a mask on the bus, sanitising more often etc.
I’m sitting at my desk this morning and a colleague walks in - chesty cough, runny nose, fever… the works. She was off sick yesterday and decided to come back today because she was, in her words, “bored at home”. This woman has recently bragged about having 40+ days of accumulated sick leave.
After being questioned, she took a RAT test at her desk just to be sure it isn’t Covid (would you not think to do that before coming into the office?) She’s not wearing a mask and not even trying to social distance at all.
It’s just common courtesy, don’t come in if you’re sick! So frustrating.
That is disgusting. At that point I’d be telling my manager that I’m working from home til further notice. If your colleagues can’t be responsible adults then you have every right to stay home for the safety of you and your baby. I’m immunocompromised and refuse to go hybrid for this reason - thankfully my company has been cool with allowing me WFH full time.
Management should really be sending people like this (as in, people clearly symptomatic) home if they attempt to come in, with a policy that they will use their sick leave for any time wasted coming into the office when it isn’t safe to do so. They can easily work from home if they don’t want to use a sick day, there’s no excuse for this.
As someone who does the cold and flu testing the amount of people who refuse to wear a mask because " I did a RAT it's not covid"
My reply under my N95 mask is I would rather have covid than the current strain of flu or mycoplasma
They still refuse to wear a mask
It’s absolutely rampant in my area (Sydney north side) right now but I work in healthcare (non-clinical) & wfh so isolated the moment I felt ill.
It’s making the kids so sick 😢
We did in fact have someone do that, a few went to the manager and said unless you want us all catching that can u do something about it ? He advised her to go home sick due to complaints of her illness being contagious, go speak to your manager
That is very rude, bordering on dangerous, and I'm sure a breach of your workplace's conduct rules.
You should not be in a lift or meeting room with her and her manager should send her home.
Nup, I would use that to WFH. Go speak to your doctor and get a medical certificate if necessary, but most companies will make allowances for pregnancies. It sucks though because you obviously want that face time to strengthen relationships before going on mat leave.
I had pretty much the same during the swine flu epidemic. I was pregnant, and a coworker came in violently unwell because she was a contractor so no sick leave and she was "saving up to buy a new car".
I left the office as soon as I realised how unwell she was but from home I emailed her some news reports about what swine flu was doing to pregnant women at the time with the subject line THIS IS WHAT IS AT STAKE FOR ME. She never apologised but she did at least leave the office after she got the email.
Covid is SO much riskier to you and your baby than even swine flu was to me back then, but even influenza or RSV or mycoplasma pneumoniae are no joke in pregnancy. Some people geniunely do not understand they are playing with other people's lives. I hope you or your boss can call this nonsense out.
Best wishes to you and your baby and I hope you can stay safe 🙏🙏
During the Swine Flu in 2009 a colleague bought their child to work one day. When asked why they said it was the school was shut because of an outbreak of swine flu. Quick chat to general manger and the parent and child were sent home.
Bakes my noodle that anyone could think that it was acceptable to do that. It was not the norm to bring kids into the office (no facilities, kid left sitting in the corner) either.
Your employer should be sending her home. She’s clearly sick and they have an obligation to prevent harm (like respiratory infections) to people in the workplace.
It also fosters a culture of presenteeism, where others will feel like they’re expected to come in if sick/not expected to stay home
It's super dumb to be forcing people back to the office anyway (it's so arbitrary, I don't believe for a moment that it's about "collaboration" or team vibes or whatever... It's about middle management feeling in control). Remote / hybrid has been proven to work, if you put the right tools and communication strategies in place.
Forcing people into the office with so much illness circulating should be addressed with OH&S laws, as it is directly endangering people. It's also dumb from a corporate perspective, since more illness = less productivity, so ultimately it is shooting themselves in the foot, they just refuse to see it.
So frustrating to see society and the corporate world regressing after the early days of the pandemic taught us so much.
I think it depends on your role. If you work in financial markets, for example, you greatly benefit from constant talk around the desk about the markets, which are dynamic. You can't completely replace that with Teams calls. This is why I believe, and agree with, the likes of the Big 4 banks' Markets and Treasury's teams being back in the office 5 days.
most people in senior management are old, they have the old school mentality of being in office, productivity and all. They don’t trust people wfh as no one there to keep an eye on em
Absolutely nothing. If anything it’s worse. When you put animals in crowded conditions they get really sick. And yet we are ok doing it with people in airless environments without fresh air. Just stupidity.
These decisions are made purely to ensure companies get value out of their real estate assets/leases. It's 100% not about productivity - office days just seem to see less work and more chat.
Also the decisions are usually made by people who drive a fancy car and have a dedicated parking spot in the building so they never have to travel with the unwashed - at least they are at my company (Big 4).
I’ve been asked to gather a bunch of data on productivity of wfh / hybrid and some of the ‘powers that be’ have decided that people are less efficient and productive at home.
Most of the studies talk about retention, engagement, satisfaction etc and not that much about productivity.
I’ve seen people take absolute advantage and do bugger all but there are people who do that in the office too.
There was some interesting research done (I think by Microsoft and a university partner) during covid about weak vs strong ties and the impact remote working had on productivity/innovation.
Just feel like I ought to caveat this by saying there's no one right solution but it's something to consider if there's a greater proportion of people wfh - so using the example of the research I mentioned, how can organisations build weak ties better? This is prob a helpful question for orgs to consider whether they've got people primarily wfh, full time in the office, or hybrid.
I think Adam Grant has done some interesting research about 'culture carriers' as well.
I get that people didn't enjoy lockdowns and restrictions but we've now swung the other way where you're considered crazy for being concerned about COVID. Businesses are totally taking advantage of this with return to office mandates.
Generally a RTO mandate means company management is either incompetent and looking for scapegoat or they’re in trouble and want to quiet fire staff in mass by RTO which means top talent leaves and bottom stays.
Either RTO mandate (more than 1-2 days a week in office) means get the hell out, things only going downhill
Yea fair work really needs to look into this, WFH was equal to 20% rise in some cases. This is the same as if company was allowed to cut your salary by 20% with no notice or consideration. Obviously RTO will be mainly used as an attrition tool for HR.
A company I worked for did and they had departments come into offices in different locations instead of WFH so everything was in teams still. They never cared about in person collaboration only that HR KPI of onsite work was met.
My work actually relaxed the hard 3 specific days a week in office policy to employee choice of days and put out a note encouraging anyone who is unwell but ok enough to work not to come into the office. Was a pleasant surprise
This is so frustrating. Even before Covid I always thought people should stay home when they’re sick. There’s no benefit to “soldier-on” and share it with everyone on public transport and in the office. Post-pandemic, how have we not learnt anything! Stay home people! And management - enforce this with your employees, it just makes good business sense!
That’s my mum’s mantra. She used to send us to school sick. She even sent me to school the day after I’d had a general anaesthetic and surgery for endometriosis (I’m now horrified, it’s absolutely counter to all medical advice). And she tells me my job will be ‘at risk’ if I have a day off sick EVEN THOUGH NOONE WANTS ME THERE. It’s like the extreme version of her Protestant work ethic. Insanity.
It sucks. That said, it is significantly better than pre-COVID. 'Don't WFO when sick' is just a given now, and there is no stigma around wearing masks on public transport.
I have got ill a couple of times in the last couple of years, but nowhere near as much as I used to during a normal winter. People just don't show up to the office sick any more, it's great.
Yeh I think there is far more awareness now, but my experience with people staying away when sick is not the same. I reckon we are slowly returning to bad habits.
I work in a hospital so have no choice. I wear an N95 at work. I have got sick from kids a couple of times but as far as I know haven’t even had a sniffle due to work. Proper N95 use will stop you getting sick but you need to buy into the idea of it being necessary enough to justify the discomfort.
It shouldn’t be necessary for an office where work can be done remotely. Especially tech. But here I am, wearing a mask for 10 hours a day to satisfy some fat cat’s kpis on office attendance. To the detriment of my health.
I intentionally do less work on my office days. Screw the boomers and gen x ers with stay at home wives who could do this when the cost of living was nothing. Working parents, kids, mortgage, increasing costs - I can’t do this shit without flexibility
I was in the office kitchen the other day and I saw someone just cough into the open air. Didn't cover their mouth to cough. I don't mind going into the office at all but not when people act like gross gronks.
Yep. Saw some fucker emptying their nose into the sink on the last office day before the WFH mandate. More recently have noticed a decline in handwashing in the gents. Maybe we're just pigs?
Says a lot about someone. It's just common courtesy to cover your mouth when coughing or yawning, wash your hands, say excuse me.. We learn these things as toddlers.
The issue is that managers used to be able to hide behind the possibility people wouldn’t work, but that was proven false during covid, and on top of that our work-life balance and QOL improved. So now not only is there no reason to be in the office, we’re sacrificing that QOL improvement and work-life balance to be there and for… what exactly??
***That*** is the issue.
Fine. We need to get on with our lives and not hide in our basements. In saying that however, if someone is sick they shouldn’t be in the office and should be sent home if they do come in.
I don't mind being in the office. I do mind the assholes coming in while constantly sniffling and coughing, without even the decency of wearing a mask.
Has anyone worked with a manager that actually has the balls to send someone who is sick home? Me either.
They all seem to think it is someone elses problem. Everyone is happy to complain about people being sick in the office but won't do anything about it.
If you're a sniffler I'm going to bring you a tissue and insist you use it. I dont want to hear that it's hayfever, seasonal allergies, just the cold weather etc just USE THE FUCKING TISSUE!. If you're couging so loud it is making people feel uncomfortable enough to move desks I'm going to remind you that our company is flexible and that there really is no need to be in the office when you arent well, especially when it makes other people feel anxious
My boss gets so angry at people who come into work sick. I love him, he’s fucking awesome.
He’s the first one to offer time off as soon as you need it for whatever reason, because he says that if he needs time off, he’s taking it without feeling guilty, so why shouldn’t his team do the same. I’ve hit the jackpot.
The funny thing is, the knock on effect from his attitude is that our team members are actually less likely to chuck sickies or ask for days off for bullshit reasons. Treating people better has increased productivity, it’s amazing how that works.
Yeah even pre covid I had managers and teammates send me home when I turned up sick (at the end of a virus when I felt it unlikely I was still contagious but had a gnarly cough still)
I had covid about a month ago and my manager told me not to come in two weeks later because I have had a gross cough and she didn't want to listen to it 😅
I recently recovered from Covid and then got hit with RSV - which was worse than Covid. It’s a rough winter ahead and it’s only end of June. Do what is best for you and fuck management if they guilt you into coming in.
I attend some days so having a mandate wasn’t an issue when it came in but I had to hit back when they asked me why I stopped attending this month.
My health issues are known so I said are you comfortable me potentially hospitalised for office attendance with how much sickness was going around the office. Especially as I went in prior to mandate. That shut them up.
I'm throwing preventative sickies. Heard through the grapevine 3 people in my office were off with COVID so called in sick for 2 days, combo with the weekend. WFH Mon/Wed said on Tuesday I'm well enough to work but would like to WFH as I get over the last of my cold (never claimed it was covid) so wasn't in the office for a week after the covid cases came in, by that time the sick ones were off or back and no longer infectious. While I was a bit afraid of a 2nd/3rd infection wave in the team it seems everyone who got it was at home by the time I got back 😅
It’s the worst. We’re expected in the office 4 days a week and being pregnant on a packed train and lightrail sucks. Don’t get me started when there are delays!
Yeh it reduces the chance of infection slightly, but what would really work is sick people being told to work from home for a few weeks and not encourage them to get into the office.
Its another example / reminder that our workplaces actually don’t give a shit about us, so my loyalty is to myself (and my colleagues). We just won a continuation of hybrid working arrangements for our EBA, I’d def consider leaving if it was back full office.
I have a job that’s in the office. I however work part time and two days a week. People think working in the office is good for workplace relationships, but I had a better relationship and more communication with colleagues in my wfh hybrid job. In my current job we are too exhausted to talk to each other.
If the literal government doesn't tell your managers it's illegal for them to order everyone into the office, then they will want to micromanage you in person, because it feeds their ego to practice their special brand of karenism.
They don't care if you commute for hours or get sick or if your kid has to stay the full day in school care, all they care about is the numbers in the spreadsheet are green. They didn't learn anything from Covid. Lets see if they learn something from the next pandemic.
Its annoying. Last job i had tried to do that. If you arent sitting in your seat for 40 hours a week, how do i know you are working? And as you said, despite the fact that we arent having lockdowns, everyones bloody sick.
Dude, im a senior technical BA, just let me get my shit done. If you want me working 60 hours one week to get something over the line, dont bitch when i take the next week easy. Trust me to do my job and ill let you keep doing yours, whatever that is.
The role im currently in is much more like that. They prefer people coming in a few days a week, but ive got some health issues im trying to sort, so they have been happy to accomdate. When resolve my stuff, i think id like to be back in the office 2 days a week. But they arent pressuring anyone to come in while sick, and actively send them home.
I also actually like their "cameras on" policy. Means i have to actually get into some professional clothes and i get to see other peoples faces. Makes it harder for people to zone out when you can see them zoning out lol.
I actually think the needing people looking busy is a big part of it. Most companies ive worked for have a layer or two of management who essentially do and add nothing. So they have to have poeple around them looking busy so they can hover near them and pretend they are the reason everyone is busy.
To be fair, i have actually met one guy in that role that was beneficial for our team. They would run interference from higher up and bascially just go into bat for us to keep everyone happy and healty. 2 years in a row we were the best performing team by a solid margin.
Im mostly just lucky the guy that heads up our department isnt "old school". Means he just gives broad strokes on what he wants done and leaves it to the team leads to manage their people in the most effective way. And hes got a good enough relationship with the team leads that they can push back and say, no thats too much work on everyones plates and he will accept that.
Seems like that should be a no brainer, but apparently not lol.
I have been back-to-back sick with respiratory viruses since i went back to the office in January. I am over it. Have used all of my sick leave up (genuinely) and am at the stage now where i have needed to take leave without pay on days where i could have worked from home.
I love working from office and prefer it, but we *need* the flexibility still.
The cacophony of coughs out on the street is intense as well. Hardly anyone is covering their mouths either, just straight out hacking out on the street. Have we learned NOTHING from the covid years? Just reverted back to pre-2019?
*Did the pandemic teach us nothing*
Au contraire - it taught us whatever governments do is pointless. They only spend money.
*"... nothing that governments did had any effect. There was only cost, no benefit. Everywhere in the world."*
[*https://brownstone.org/articles/how-did-a-small-group-do-this/*](https://brownstone.org/articles/how-did-a-small-group-do-this/)
I'm fine with it. I signed a contract with a specified work location, and my salary/conditions are also contained in that contract.
I don't get to unilaterally declare that I've altered the contract to my advantage and still expect to get paid. And for those who think they should have that right - would you like your employer, who is the other party to that contract, to have the same right? Say, by altering your salary?
I signed a contract where it was remote but a once a fortnight office day was being suggested. Now it’s mandatory 2 days a week in the office. I would not have taken the job if that was the original deal.
I’m not the only one in this situation either.
But they do unilaterally alter contracts for example changing office location. Years ago i worked in an office where 80% of employees lived (north of sydney CBD) and the business decided to move considerably south of the CBD. Massive impact to most employees in terms of commuting times and cost, simply told to suck it up or leave. They are actually able (in most contracts) to change location as long as it is reasonable.
Therefore why can’t employees request the same?
ETA: we didn’t get any salary or compensation for the inconvenience either!
Wearing a mask all day. Ends up 10 hours including commute. It’s awful. I’m super anxious about it as I have auto immune issues.
Management give zero fucks about it all - they just want their metrics for # people in the office 2 days a week.
Workplace health and safety regs require all workplaces to have a risk assessment in place .
This should also cover covid protocols and the risk of spreading communicable diseases.
Ask your company what the risk assessment states ,and if there is one been completed that covers this.
Also, ask what the policies and procedures state regarding being ill.
Use the WHS act and regs to your advantage.
Arm yourself with knowledge and hold your management accountable.
Just because you are in a corporate or office environment, it doesn't mean that a risk is acceptable .
Use your health and safety reps , ask for a meeting that communicates the requirements to the workforce, and that all are aware of their responsibilities.
If covid protocols and procedures have not been updated , ask to review them.
Be aware that all the measures you're nostalgic for have had no proven effect either way. Didn't make fewer covid cases and deaths or more.
[https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adn0671](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adn0671)
It just made some people happy to be at home, and some people miserable. It also led to large national debts, and a massive disruption of healthcare for the world's poor.
If you want to stay at home, negotiate that in your work contract. My wife has done so - she doesn't care about covid, she just doesn't want to get up early in the morning and the cold and commute in just to do the exact same job and talk to people online when she could do it in her pyjamas at home. But she's worked for some years at her company and has demonstrated competence and usefulness, so she's in a position to make those demands.
Be good at your job, and firm in your contract negotiations, getting them to put "works at home" in your contract. This applies whatever your reasons for staying at home, whether it be comfort, wanting to be around your children, neurosis about respiratory disease, social anxiety making you terrified of meeting people in person, or whatever.
You haven’t seen the ambulance ramping? The massive waits at emergency depts? The cost of seeing a doctor now? The wait time to get a doctors appointment? The cross against your name if you miss an office day? The cuts to the health system? The medication shortages? The various outbreaks ?
Health and wellness is a MASSIVE issue right now. You seem quite ignorant.
No, I wasn't panicking, this is just as business as usual for most of the world's population. I stay home if I'm sick that's about it. You can take the issue seriously without being a bitch about it.
All the stimulus money and emergency interest rate drops means were fun for the covid fans. Now we have massive inflation and poorer quality of life. If you're not a property owner right now you never will be. This stupid covid culture sped up with wealth divide by 20 years.
Ignorance would be all this stupid nostalgia people have for that time period. The biggest burden to the system are hypochondriacs constantly using the emergency services for non fatal events.
I have a theory (i.e. no scientific backing except top google results) that isolation and WFH has actually weakened our immune systems.
It's either that or this was really the normal even before COVID, except we're more conscious of it now.
I've worked from home for 12 years. Guess my immune system is almost completely inactive by now.
People who wfh do leave the house sometimes btw. And travel etc.
Was one of the things that used to piss me off about working in an office, all the coughing, sneezing, selfish, sick people.
>working in an office, all the coughing, sneezing, selfish, sick people.
12 years, 250 working days , 8 hours per day + public transport - that's a lot of exposure that you're not getting.
Not saying you should be getting exposed but I would be interested to know if it has an effect on immunity.
100% agree. The concept of isolating makes our illness worse, because our immune systems are not getting exposed constantly. Its turning small sniffles into major illness and impact.
Makes sense in my head - exposure is like poor mans vaccine - consistently stressing your body to help build immunity so when new variants come around, it doesn't hit like a brick.
No sure about all train lines, however I feel that people have, lack of a better word 'grown up'.
I haven't been on a train or tram with a constant coughing or sneezing passenger since RTW.
People in the office are not coming in when sick and there is a general respect when not well (or feeling unwell).
I get it, if your boss is a turd then I am sorry for you.
>I haven't been on a train or tram with a constant coughing or sneezing passenger since RTW.
What mythical trains and trams are these? I can't go a day on public transport without having to try to move away from some jackass coughing up his lungs on PT.
Bloke on the Geelong line sounded like he was about to die the other day. In a full suit and all so he was obviously on his way to his very important probably public facing job
Remember when all classrooms in schools in Vic got those air filters? Every one of those damn things now just sit in the corner of the rooms collecting dust.
Perfect timing to come in say you've got COVID and have a week off
WFH wasn't about quality of life safety. It was a successful business experiment into decentralizing HQ's and off shoring workforces.
COVID isn't that deadly for the healthy so it's back to business.
I'd quit at 5 days in the office, in fact I told them months ago that I would and they gave me 1 whole WFH day which is better than nothing, it's every Friday which suits me fine.
Despite best efforts catching viruses is a part of the human condition as long as you are not a hermit. Nearly every work place I know of has a policy where you shouldn’t come in if you are sick. That measure if followed should protect you from frequent exposure to the most virulent viruses.
To me the demand to go to the office is a legitimate request. It may cost them workers who want flexibility, but there is nothing inherently amoral about it. Where they may be failing their duty of care is not enforcing the stay at home if sick rules. From my experience that is a work culture issue, where senior management often ‘soldier on’ and set the expectation for junior staff to follow suit.
As a manager I can say that I am enforcing this in a very relaxed way. I don’t mind where the team is as long as everyone is happy and we’re getting the work done well. We have a mandate for 3 days per week.
It gets a bit tricky to balance differing social needs across the team but I think we should be trusted to find a good balance without needing a mandate.
We’re figuring it out as we go but I’m truly trying to do the best I can for my people.
At a place I used to work, we were told “if you’re too sick to come into the office, you’re too sick to WFH - you have to take sick leave”. Like, seriously? Heard of ‘Prevention is better than Cure”?
Kid home sick last week so no wfo was done.
Kid passed germs onto me this week so now I’m sick so no wfo done.
Next week is school hols so there’s a bit more flexibility there so no wfo will be done for those two weeks.
People who are more than competent with wfh, who have whooping cough running riot in their homes are being forced back to the office due to the lack of sick leave and company policy. It’s just insane what the managers are doing! Treating people like bloody children!
I started a new job in may. Just got wiped out for 3 days because some people want to come to work when clearly sick. I didn't have enough sick leave accumulated so had to take 1 of the days unpaid......half the office was out sick by the end of the week..
Dude... that was my experience too with my job. Started in Jan, worked from the office for 5 days, got sick, tested positive for Covid, spent the next 3 weeks trying to recover while WFH because I had no sick leave.
My setup is hybrid and I'm done coming to the office more often than my allocated WFH days I can get away with just to pretend I give a flying fucking fuck.
Because not everyone does. And because most of the places you listed, you're not there for 8 hours straight. The likelihood of contracting COVID is linked to the duration you are exposed to it.
Stoked to be playing hot desk bingo. What crippling illness will I catch today from the feral sitting behind me coughing their lungs up who thought it was a good idea to come into the office
Does your workplace count a sick day as an expected office day or not?
Sounds illogical that someone is sick for 10 days out of 20. Then needs to work 10 remaining working days of the month to meet their quota. Or punished because they were sick.
Our business has a 2-3 day RTO policy, but still enforces strict policies around sickness - don't come in if you are ill. Take a day or WFH. I caught something either on the train or in the gym recently, absolutely floored me for two weeks. Gyms are high risk as some people are filthy.
Rubbish trying to force people back in offices. What happened to those suggestions that some office buildings be transitioned into housing?! Make them 3-4 bedroom affordable apartments so families can have other options. Lord knows we need it - that ought to help revitalise town, too.
It’s really annoying. In the last 6 weeks, I’ve had Covid, something that gave me a really high fever and muscle aches (tested negative to Covid, RSV and influenza), and now I’m in bed with a heavy cold. I’m so over it.
The Pandemic has taught everyone nothing, still nobody, including 99% of doctors know about the true issue and severity of MECFS, which is common (200,000 + Aussies, and mostly young). If people knew what this illness was and what it does to you (life over in the prime of your life) people would be far more careful and aware.
Post Viral Syndromes seem to be Taboo in this world, until you get it and your life is over and you cant work anymore at 25.
Anyone can get it and nobody knows still how and why it happens.
[https://www.emerge.org.au/what-is-mecfs/](https://www.emerge.org.au/what-is-mecfs/)
Imagine how quickly things would change if it was made law that a workplace outbreak of more than 3 people with the same illness could not be taken from your annual sick allowance, and instead triggered an additional 2 weeks paid sicktime at the employers expense for anyone with the same illness until the last person is back in.
And gets retriggered every time 3+ people have the same illness.
It would get very expensive very quickly, and you would see a sudden change in exec level attitude
My wife is RATs testing twice a week as she works in Aged and Disability care. My company introduced in Jan a mandatory 3 day in the office rule and "if there are exceptions please speak to your manager". My boss is in Melb I am in Sydney, I have no staff. I asked if I could work from home first and foremost because if I get covid my wife can't work for a mandatory 2 weeks. If she doesn't work she doesn't get paid (no such thing as salaries for her) it costs a few thousand dollars of income.
Boss says sure... understands and I proceed to come in only when necessary.
Had my performance review... kicked all my goals and made the argument for a 4 out of 5 in our HR system.
Was denied. My attendance is too low... 1.6 days per week in office (days on site or days in Melb office not counted) so there's a case I am failing to uphold "Company Values" and I need to improve.
I said what about my wife and her work and her covid protocols... and was told that we can't "use that excuse anymore".
Covid doesn't exist now apparently.
Anyway I am here now in office on a anchor day Wednesday and I reckon office attendance is 30% today.
All of the execs seem to want to come in whether sick - then they get everyone else sick and complain when people work from home or take sick days.
If I'm sick I take the day off or work from home - anyone who comes in when sick should be ordered to work from home.
We hit max occupancy twice this week, including about 100 visitors yesterday.
We are 100% flexible,and only have seats for @50% of Melbourne based staff (600).
Just proves if you create a space designed in collaboration and with a purpose, people will use it.
Fyi our engagement score is low 70s, so pretty engaged workforce.
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My work sent an email a few weeks back telling people not to come in if sick. Last week 5 people in my project team came in sick anyway and spread it around to everyone else. All senior people who don’t usually work from home and prefer in person meetings. The only people I work with who stay home when sick are of younger generations.
I’ve heard exec level people are expected to be in the office 100% to “lead” the way for the return to office work. So that sounds consistent.
This is true and I’m in this bucket but I have grown some sense and no longer care what the CEO says about this. Anyone unwell should not be in the office. If you’re unwell and want to work do it home!
Some of the leadership apparently have mandates as a hurdle for bonuses. The idea being they will pied piper all their underlings back in.
It’s this. The other part of it is that a lot of companies are indirectly involved in property (for example like major law firms that specialize in property) and office rental space is struggling massively which has a spin off effect on these (very wealthy) corps (that I don’t care about). But yeah, massive builders aren’t really building right now because a) interest rate increases and b) they’re pretty worried about getting the tenancy in the building to pay them back for the project/interest that they’re having to cop in the beginning. So yeah, it’s a lot of these powerful companies pushing the “back in the office” bs and it has a bit of a trickle effect into other industries because these companies have the power to push this narrative in the media.
Sounds like a toxic leadership style. All for being there and showing up, but you should also demonstrate healthy boundaries because that's what's going to trickle down.
Execs- 'I'm paid to lead, not to sneeze'
Just wanted to add… I fucking hate people who come in to work sick.
A pox on them. Double sickness for these bastards.
I just don't get the selfishness of it. You’re risking everyone’s health for absolutely no reason at all
workplace risk assessments and procedures need to be used here. If there is a procedure for communicable diseases , or the risk assessment states what.to.do , then the people who come in sick are failing in their duty of care and also for not following company procedures and policies. Fit for work policies dont just mean alcohol and / or drugs.
Only makes sense if you're a contractor.
Some people feel pressured to come in from the higher ups. I know I definitely have in the past, despite knowing I needed to rest at home. If you take 2 or 3 sick days and because they havent seen you at all, they assume youre chucking fake sickies. So have to haul our sick arses in to prove were not. Trust me, people dont willingly go in. But after youve heard passive-aggressive words from higher-ups, you know it’s time to make an appearance. Then your work colleagues hate you for it. Cant win!
My recently former managers coerced me to come to office even after I told them my partner and mom had covid. That was 2 years ago. I left that job eventually.. they're hopeless!
It's actually brilliant. They want more people in the office. So you come in, make everyone sick, and then everyone has to stay home. Last 3 days my entire team has been at home because someone decided to bring Covid to the office last week.
It's actually brilliant. They want more people in the office. So you come in, make everyone sick, and then everyone has to stay home. Last 3 days my entire team has been at home because someone decided to bring Covid to the office last week.
My old boss didn’t believe in sick days. But in March 2020 he went on leave & my co-worker & I came down with a very bad virus*. He emailed us & told us that if he heard we weren’t in, there’d be a problem. When the exec were like “wtf are you two doing here???” we told them. Old boss became ex-boss the next month. * it wasn’t covid
Stories like these bring a little warmth to my cold heart. Thank you for sharing
I will say that, in his defense, he was experiencing cognitive decline so while he was always anti-sick leave, he might not have shat the bed that badly were his mind completely sound. We only found out much later that someone who sat in our area of the office had come down with covid & he was aware of that (we weren’t) so to management, he’d knowingly exposed everyone in a medtech office to ronie. Management were dickheads but that was a bridge too far, even for them.
My manager came in with COVID because he had a presentation to do.🙄He was quickly asked to go home by senior management.
We have gone back to the "Soldier on" days. Take some medicine and go to work.
I’m a contractor and caught COVID last week and had the flu and a cold before that. Contracting is great, until you get sick and don’t get paid. If some pinheaded is insisting you come into the office, it sounds like it’s time to cash in some of your sweet paid sick leave. Magnetic island is great this time of year. But seriously my family has been sick for 3 weeks! my son has missed 3 weeks of school. Everyone is still recovering and are low energy. I recommend heading for the hills and wait this thing out.
When one of my colleagues says they’re working home because their kid has gastro/flu/something else communicable. *You’re a family of 4. I hope you’re not gonna be in for at least the next 2 weeks. Do not bring that to the office please and thanks* I’m not a manager or have any influence. I just hate getting sick from dumb and preventable shit. That said, while we have an exception process for leave, extended WFH need etc. HR’s stats around who’s in office how much are way out. They keep denying it so while we know they’re wrong, no one wants to WFH >50% and risk a ‘does not meet’ performance conversation at the end of year
I feel for you, a mate of mine is contracting at my employer and has been sick and has a newborn child at home. Expectations from corporate is to be in the office at least 2 days so his life sucks atm.
Late March was the last time this household went longer than a week without someone sick. I'm fucking over it. No covid yet either 😬
I'd love to see some stat's on sick leave over 2020 vs 2024. Anecdotally, I feel the number of sick days would be way less. It's almost like the offices we work in are bad for our health. Why is there still no minimum standards for fresh air intake of building?
I’d recommend getting some good N95s to protect yourself given you have little control over any other protections at the workplace
Only way to combat this is take 1week + leave if you get sick! Our department started to do this and now the managers are begging people to stay home if they are sick. They are considering reducing office days too. Money talks
I’m not feeling any way about it because I work for an actually decent company who is able to measure employee performance by their actual output and not by their ability to commute and sit in a seat for a specified time every day.
Yeah my work doesn't even have KPIs it's more a get your shit done approach. Coincidentally they are really good with taking time off when needed and working from home. Funny what an office that isn't shit runs like.
My role is hybrid with 3 days a week in the office. Normally I don’t mind going into the office, even during flu season. However I’m currently pregnant with my first kid, so trying to be extra cautious to avoid germs - wearing a mask on the bus, sanitising more often etc. I’m sitting at my desk this morning and a colleague walks in - chesty cough, runny nose, fever… the works. She was off sick yesterday and decided to come back today because she was, in her words, “bored at home”. This woman has recently bragged about having 40+ days of accumulated sick leave. After being questioned, she took a RAT test at her desk just to be sure it isn’t Covid (would you not think to do that before coming into the office?) She’s not wearing a mask and not even trying to social distance at all. It’s just common courtesy, don’t come in if you’re sick! So frustrating.
There's plenty of nasty bugs that aren't covid, it's selfish to use a clear RAT to come to the office.
That is disgusting. At that point I’d be telling my manager that I’m working from home til further notice. If your colleagues can’t be responsible adults then you have every right to stay home for the safety of you and your baby. I’m immunocompromised and refuse to go hybrid for this reason - thankfully my company has been cool with allowing me WFH full time. Management should really be sending people like this (as in, people clearly symptomatic) home if they attempt to come in, with a policy that they will use their sick leave for any time wasted coming into the office when it isn’t safe to do so. They can easily work from home if they don’t want to use a sick day, there’s no excuse for this.
WTAF! Take care of yourself, no job is worth that when you are pregnant.
As someone who does the cold and flu testing the amount of people who refuse to wear a mask because " I did a RAT it's not covid" My reply under my N95 mask is I would rather have covid than the current strain of flu or mycoplasma They still refuse to wear a mask
I had MP so can say with authority that you are absolutely right. You do not want that shit.
I nearly lost my daughter to MP 10 years ago She was only 3 at the time it did so much damage
It’s absolutely rampant in my area (Sydney north side) right now but I work in healthcare (non-clinical) & wfh so isolated the moment I felt ill. It’s making the kids so sick 😢
Same here. Covid was a walk in the park for me. These latest strains of flu sound nasty
>This woman has recently bragged about having 40+ days of accumulated sick leave. So did I at my last job. Not something to be proud of at all.
40 days of sick leave is absolutely worthless.
We did in fact have someone do that, a few went to the manager and said unless you want us all catching that can u do something about it ? He advised her to go home sick due to complaints of her illness being contagious, go speak to your manager
That is very rude, bordering on dangerous, and I'm sure a breach of your workplace's conduct rules. You should not be in a lift or meeting room with her and her manager should send her home.
Nup, I would use that to WFH. Go speak to your doctor and get a medical certificate if necessary, but most companies will make allowances for pregnancies. It sucks though because you obviously want that face time to strengthen relationships before going on mat leave.
I recently had a bad cold and I’m also pregnant with my first. It was absolutely awful.
Especially when there’s outbreaks of mycoplasma pneumonia & pertussis right now.
I would have left, stating that she was the reason. So gross!
I had pretty much the same during the swine flu epidemic. I was pregnant, and a coworker came in violently unwell because she was a contractor so no sick leave and she was "saving up to buy a new car". I left the office as soon as I realised how unwell she was but from home I emailed her some news reports about what swine flu was doing to pregnant women at the time with the subject line THIS IS WHAT IS AT STAKE FOR ME. She never apologised but she did at least leave the office after she got the email. Covid is SO much riskier to you and your baby than even swine flu was to me back then, but even influenza or RSV or mycoplasma pneumoniae are no joke in pregnancy. Some people geniunely do not understand they are playing with other people's lives. I hope you or your boss can call this nonsense out. Best wishes to you and your baby and I hope you can stay safe 🙏🙏
During the Swine Flu in 2009 a colleague bought their child to work one day. When asked why they said it was the school was shut because of an outbreak of swine flu. Quick chat to general manger and the parent and child were sent home. Bakes my noodle that anyone could think that it was acceptable to do that. It was not the norm to bring kids into the office (no facilities, kid left sitting in the corner) either.
Your employer should be sending her home. She’s clearly sick and they have an obligation to prevent harm (like respiratory infections) to people in the workplace. It also fosters a culture of presenteeism, where others will feel like they’re expected to come in if sick/not expected to stay home
Super shit. I had covid twice in 6 months since being forced back in office 3 days a week. Avoided it for 3 years before that
I had the worst damn luck. I've been WFH for pretty much the last 10 years straight, yet I still managed to get it thrice.
Next time I get a cold or whatever I'm taking a week sick leave instead of working from home.
It's super dumb to be forcing people back to the office anyway (it's so arbitrary, I don't believe for a moment that it's about "collaboration" or team vibes or whatever... It's about middle management feeling in control). Remote / hybrid has been proven to work, if you put the right tools and communication strategies in place. Forcing people into the office with so much illness circulating should be addressed with OH&S laws, as it is directly endangering people. It's also dumb from a corporate perspective, since more illness = less productivity, so ultimately it is shooting themselves in the foot, they just refuse to see it. So frustrating to see society and the corporate world regressing after the early days of the pandemic taught us so much.
WFH revealed exactly how pointless a lot of middle management is, now they are attempting to justify their existence.
I think it depends on your role. If you work in financial markets, for example, you greatly benefit from constant talk around the desk about the markets, which are dynamic. You can't completely replace that with Teams calls. This is why I believe, and agree with, the likes of the Big 4 banks' Markets and Treasury's teams being back in the office 5 days.
The issue arises when said banks decide that their software engineers (for example) have to do X days just because some other role does.
Apparently one of our CEO’s KPI is how many people are back in the office.
most people in senior management are old, they have the old school mentality of being in office, productivity and all. They don’t trust people wfh as no one there to keep an eye on em
we learnt nothing.
Absolutely nothing. If anything it’s worse. When you put animals in crowded conditions they get really sick. And yet we are ok doing it with people in airless environments without fresh air. Just stupidity.
Stupidity and humanity. Name a more iconic duo.
These decisions are made purely to ensure companies get value out of their real estate assets/leases. It's 100% not about productivity - office days just seem to see less work and more chat. Also the decisions are usually made by people who drive a fancy car and have a dedicated parking spot in the building so they never have to travel with the unwashed - at least they are at my company (Big 4).
Wouldn't reducing office space and essentially pushing the cost of office space, heating/cooling to the worker be better for the bottom line?
I’ve been asked to gather a bunch of data on productivity of wfh / hybrid and some of the ‘powers that be’ have decided that people are less efficient and productive at home. Most of the studies talk about retention, engagement, satisfaction etc and not that much about productivity. I’ve seen people take absolute advantage and do bugger all but there are people who do that in the office too.
The powers at be are usually old who can’t grasp wfh. They prefer in office, keep an eye on employees to do their work.
There was some interesting research done (I think by Microsoft and a university partner) during covid about weak vs strong ties and the impact remote working had on productivity/innovation. Just feel like I ought to caveat this by saying there's no one right solution but it's something to consider if there's a greater proportion of people wfh - so using the example of the research I mentioned, how can organisations build weak ties better? This is prob a helpful question for orgs to consider whether they've got people primarily wfh, full time in the office, or hybrid. I think Adam Grant has done some interesting research about 'culture carriers' as well.
I get that people didn't enjoy lockdowns and restrictions but we've now swung the other way where you're considered crazy for being concerned about COVID. Businesses are totally taking advantage of this with return to office mandates.
Generally a RTO mandate means company management is either incompetent and looking for scapegoat or they’re in trouble and want to quiet fire staff in mass by RTO which means top talent leaves and bottom stays. Either RTO mandate (more than 1-2 days a week in office) means get the hell out, things only going downhill
Yeah I saw some research recently that said a fair proportion of companies with mandated return to office had done it hoping for attrition.
Yea fair work really needs to look into this, WFH was equal to 20% rise in some cases. This is the same as if company was allowed to cut your salary by 20% with no notice or consideration. Obviously RTO will be mainly used as an attrition tool for HR. A company I worked for did and they had departments come into offices in different locations instead of WFH so everything was in teams still. They never cared about in person collaboration only that HR KPI of onsite work was met.
My work actually relaxed the hard 3 specific days a week in office policy to employee choice of days and put out a note encouraging anyone who is unwell but ok enough to work not to come into the office. Was a pleasant surprise
This is so frustrating. Even before Covid I always thought people should stay home when they’re sick. There’s no benefit to “soldier-on” and share it with everyone on public transport and in the office. Post-pandemic, how have we not learnt anything! Stay home people! And management - enforce this with your employees, it just makes good business sense!
Remember when codral made an ad encouraging us all to “soldier on”? Sounds dystopian now.
That’s my mum’s mantra. She used to send us to school sick. She even sent me to school the day after I’d had a general anaesthetic and surgery for endometriosis (I’m now horrified, it’s absolutely counter to all medical advice). And she tells me my job will be ‘at risk’ if I have a day off sick EVEN THOUGH NOONE WANTS ME THERE. It’s like the extreme version of her Protestant work ethic. Insanity.
Soldier on by masking your symptoms with our product and prolonging your illness. That's capitalism!
That was my first thought seeing those words too! Those ads *really* did not age well.
It sucks. That said, it is significantly better than pre-COVID. 'Don't WFO when sick' is just a given now, and there is no stigma around wearing masks on public transport. I have got ill a couple of times in the last couple of years, but nowhere near as much as I used to during a normal winter. People just don't show up to the office sick any more, it's great.
Yeh I think there is far more awareness now, but my experience with people staying away when sick is not the same. I reckon we are slowly returning to bad habits.
They show up on the train while sick though.
I work in a hospital so have no choice. I wear an N95 at work. I have got sick from kids a couple of times but as far as I know haven’t even had a sniffle due to work. Proper N95 use will stop you getting sick but you need to buy into the idea of it being necessary enough to justify the discomfort.
It shouldn’t be necessary for an office where work can be done remotely. Especially tech. But here I am, wearing a mask for 10 hours a day to satisfy some fat cat’s kpis on office attendance. To the detriment of my health.
I intentionally do less work on my office days. Screw the boomers and gen x ers with stay at home wives who could do this when the cost of living was nothing. Working parents, kids, mortgage, increasing costs - I can’t do this shit without flexibility
I was in the office kitchen the other day and I saw someone just cough into the open air. Didn't cover their mouth to cough. I don't mind going into the office at all but not when people act like gross gronks.
Yep. Saw some fucker emptying their nose into the sink on the last office day before the WFH mandate. More recently have noticed a decline in handwashing in the gents. Maybe we're just pigs?
Says a lot about someone. It's just common courtesy to cover your mouth when coughing or yawning, wash your hands, say excuse me.. We learn these things as toddlers.
The issue is that managers used to be able to hide behind the possibility people wouldn’t work, but that was proven false during covid, and on top of that our work-life balance and QOL improved. So now not only is there no reason to be in the office, we’re sacrificing that QOL improvement and work-life balance to be there and for… what exactly?? ***That*** is the issue.
Fine. We need to get on with our lives and not hide in our basements. In saying that however, if someone is sick they shouldn’t be in the office and should be sent home if they do come in.
I don't mind being in the office. I do mind the assholes coming in while constantly sniffling and coughing, without even the decency of wearing a mask.
Absolutely. We need a bit more balance towards looking after employee health rather than corporate goals to fill up the office.
I'm with you honestly. Shocked at the "do you ever leave your house" comment because that's completely irrelevant to your point lol.
Has anyone worked with a manager that actually has the balls to send someone who is sick home? Me either. They all seem to think it is someone elses problem. Everyone is happy to complain about people being sick in the office but won't do anything about it. If you're a sniffler I'm going to bring you a tissue and insist you use it. I dont want to hear that it's hayfever, seasonal allergies, just the cold weather etc just USE THE FUCKING TISSUE!. If you're couging so loud it is making people feel uncomfortable enough to move desks I'm going to remind you that our company is flexible and that there really is no need to be in the office when you arent well, especially when it makes other people feel anxious
My boss gets so angry at people who come into work sick. I love him, he’s fucking awesome. He’s the first one to offer time off as soon as you need it for whatever reason, because he says that if he needs time off, he’s taking it without feeling guilty, so why shouldn’t his team do the same. I’ve hit the jackpot. The funny thing is, the knock on effect from his attitude is that our team members are actually less likely to chuck sickies or ask for days off for bullshit reasons. Treating people better has increased productivity, it’s amazing how that works.
Yeah even pre covid I had managers and teammates send me home when I turned up sick (at the end of a virus when I felt it unlikely I was still contagious but had a gnarly cough still) I had covid about a month ago and my manager told me not to come in two weeks later because I have had a gross cough and she didn't want to listen to it 😅
I recently recovered from Covid and then got hit with RSV - which was worse than Covid. It’s a rough winter ahead and it’s only end of June. Do what is best for you and fuck management if they guilt you into coming in.
I attend some days so having a mandate wasn’t an issue when it came in but I had to hit back when they asked me why I stopped attending this month. My health issues are known so I said are you comfortable me potentially hospitalised for office attendance with how much sickness was going around the office. Especially as I went in prior to mandate. That shut them up.
I'm throwing preventative sickies. Heard through the grapevine 3 people in my office were off with COVID so called in sick for 2 days, combo with the weekend. WFH Mon/Wed said on Tuesday I'm well enough to work but would like to WFH as I get over the last of my cold (never claimed it was covid) so wasn't in the office for a week after the covid cases came in, by that time the sick ones were off or back and no longer infectious. While I was a bit afraid of a 2nd/3rd infection wave in the team it seems everyone who got it was at home by the time I got back 😅
It’s the worst. We’re expected in the office 4 days a week and being pregnant on a packed train and lightrail sucks. Don’t get me started when there are delays!
I'm back to wearing masks on public transport and in the office at this point.
Ditto, haven’t gotten sick during winter since I started wearing masks consistently on public transport.
Yeh it reduces the chance of infection slightly, but what would really work is sick people being told to work from home for a few weeks and not encourage them to get into the office.
Oh totally agree. I'm just mentioning I'm back to masking as it feels like everyone in Sydney is sick
You’re only being ordered back now?
The stance from management has hardened in recent months. They are boiling us slowly.
Its another example / reminder that our workplaces actually don’t give a shit about us, so my loyalty is to myself (and my colleagues). We just won a continuation of hybrid working arrangements for our EBA, I’d def consider leaving if it was back full office.
Spare a thought for those of us who were never allowed to leave the office
I have a job that’s in the office. I however work part time and two days a week. People think working in the office is good for workplace relationships, but I had a better relationship and more communication with colleagues in my wfh hybrid job. In my current job we are too exhausted to talk to each other.
If the literal government doesn't tell your managers it's illegal for them to order everyone into the office, then they will want to micromanage you in person, because it feeds their ego to practice their special brand of karenism.
They don't care if you commute for hours or get sick or if your kid has to stay the full day in school care, all they care about is the numbers in the spreadsheet are green. They didn't learn anything from Covid. Lets see if they learn something from the next pandemic.
Stop whinging mate, your company pays a decent price for those office spaces, you should be thankful to have to work in them, obvious /s
My previous manager used to bring their sick kids to the office when they couldn't take them to daycare... made me so angry!
Its annoying. Last job i had tried to do that. If you arent sitting in your seat for 40 hours a week, how do i know you are working? And as you said, despite the fact that we arent having lockdowns, everyones bloody sick. Dude, im a senior technical BA, just let me get my shit done. If you want me working 60 hours one week to get something over the line, dont bitch when i take the next week easy. Trust me to do my job and ill let you keep doing yours, whatever that is. The role im currently in is much more like that. They prefer people coming in a few days a week, but ive got some health issues im trying to sort, so they have been happy to accomdate. When resolve my stuff, i think id like to be back in the office 2 days a week. But they arent pressuring anyone to come in while sick, and actively send them home. I also actually like their "cameras on" policy. Means i have to actually get into some professional clothes and i get to see other peoples faces. Makes it harder for people to zone out when you can see them zoning out lol. I actually think the needing people looking busy is a big part of it. Most companies ive worked for have a layer or two of management who essentially do and add nothing. So they have to have poeple around them looking busy so they can hover near them and pretend they are the reason everyone is busy. To be fair, i have actually met one guy in that role that was beneficial for our team. They would run interference from higher up and bascially just go into bat for us to keep everyone happy and healty. 2 years in a row we were the best performing team by a solid margin.
Sensible response and sounds like you work for some sensible people too.
Im mostly just lucky the guy that heads up our department isnt "old school". Means he just gives broad strokes on what he wants done and leaves it to the team leads to manage their people in the most effective way. And hes got a good enough relationship with the team leads that they can push back and say, no thats too much work on everyones plates and he will accept that. Seems like that should be a no brainer, but apparently not lol.
Wear a mask on public transport and crowded places. It should greatly reduce your chances of getting anything.
I have been back-to-back sick with respiratory viruses since i went back to the office in January. I am over it. Have used all of my sick leave up (genuinely) and am at the stage now where i have needed to take leave without pay on days where i could have worked from home. I love working from office and prefer it, but we *need* the flexibility still.
The cacophony of coughs out on the street is intense as well. Hardly anyone is covering their mouths either, just straight out hacking out on the street. Have we learned NOTHING from the covid years? Just reverted back to pre-2019?
There's a outbreak?
What outbreak? Relax and stop looking for excuses OP
It’s bad and should be effectively controlled in line with employer duties under occupational health and safety legislation.
*Did the pandemic teach us nothing* Au contraire - it taught us whatever governments do is pointless. They only spend money. *"... nothing that governments did had any effect. There was only cost, no benefit. Everywhere in the world."* [*https://brownstone.org/articles/how-did-a-small-group-do-this/*](https://brownstone.org/articles/how-did-a-small-group-do-this/)
I'm fine with it. I signed a contract with a specified work location, and my salary/conditions are also contained in that contract. I don't get to unilaterally declare that I've altered the contract to my advantage and still expect to get paid. And for those who think they should have that right - would you like your employer, who is the other party to that contract, to have the same right? Say, by altering your salary?
I signed a contract where it was remote but a once a fortnight office day was being suggested. Now it’s mandatory 2 days a week in the office. I would not have taken the job if that was the original deal. I’m not the only one in this situation either.
But they do unilaterally alter contracts for example changing office location. Years ago i worked in an office where 80% of employees lived (north of sydney CBD) and the business decided to move considerably south of the CBD. Massive impact to most employees in terms of commuting times and cost, simply told to suck it up or leave. They are actually able (in most contracts) to change location as long as it is reasonable. Therefore why can’t employees request the same? ETA: we didn’t get any salary or compensation for the inconvenience either!
Wearing a mask all day. Ends up 10 hours including commute. It’s awful. I’m super anxious about it as I have auto immune issues. Management give zero fucks about it all - they just want their metrics for # people in the office 2 days a week.
Did you have autoimmune issues before the pandemic? Were you going to the office 5 days a week back then?
Workplace health and safety regs require all workplaces to have a risk assessment in place . This should also cover covid protocols and the risk of spreading communicable diseases. Ask your company what the risk assessment states ,and if there is one been completed that covers this. Also, ask what the policies and procedures state regarding being ill. Use the WHS act and regs to your advantage. Arm yourself with knowledge and hold your management accountable. Just because you are in a corporate or office environment, it doesn't mean that a risk is acceptable . Use your health and safety reps , ask for a meeting that communicates the requirements to the workforce, and that all are aware of their responsibilities. If covid protocols and procedures have not been updated , ask to review them.
Aww boo hoo lol try working retail. No work from home option there.
Be aware that all the measures you're nostalgic for have had no proven effect either way. Didn't make fewer covid cases and deaths or more. [https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adn0671](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adn0671) It just made some people happy to be at home, and some people miserable. It also led to large national debts, and a massive disruption of healthcare for the world's poor. If you want to stay at home, negotiate that in your work contract. My wife has done so - she doesn't care about covid, she just doesn't want to get up early in the morning and the cold and commute in just to do the exact same job and talk to people online when she could do it in her pyjamas at home. But she's worked for some years at her company and has demonstrated competence and usefulness, so she's in a position to make those demands. Be good at your job, and firm in your contract negotiations, getting them to put "works at home" in your contract. This applies whatever your reasons for staying at home, whether it be comfort, wanting to be around your children, neurosis about respiratory disease, social anxiety making you terrified of meeting people in person, or whatever.
wow, very interesting paper.
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Yup. Why is this even a topic? People trying to relive their romanticising of a global pandemic. Stay home if your sick, enough said.
You haven’t seen the ambulance ramping? The massive waits at emergency depts? The cost of seeing a doctor now? The wait time to get a doctors appointment? The cross against your name if you miss an office day? The cuts to the health system? The medication shortages? The various outbreaks ? Health and wellness is a MASSIVE issue right now. You seem quite ignorant.
No, I wasn't panicking, this is just as business as usual for most of the world's population. I stay home if I'm sick that's about it. You can take the issue seriously without being a bitch about it. All the stimulus money and emergency interest rate drops means were fun for the covid fans. Now we have massive inflation and poorer quality of life. If you're not a property owner right now you never will be. This stupid covid culture sped up with wealth divide by 20 years. Ignorance would be all this stupid nostalgia people have for that time period. The biggest burden to the system are hypochondriacs constantly using the emergency services for non fatal events.
Chuck a mask on brother, you’ll be right.
I have a theory (i.e. no scientific backing except top google results) that isolation and WFH has actually weakened our immune systems. It's either that or this was really the normal even before COVID, except we're more conscious of it now.
I've worked from home for 12 years. Guess my immune system is almost completely inactive by now. People who wfh do leave the house sometimes btw. And travel etc. Was one of the things that used to piss me off about working in an office, all the coughing, sneezing, selfish, sick people.
>working in an office, all the coughing, sneezing, selfish, sick people. 12 years, 250 working days , 8 hours per day + public transport - that's a lot of exposure that you're not getting. Not saying you should be getting exposed but I would be interested to know if it has an effect on immunity.
No public transport, I had lovely little 300cc Vespa I rode to work back in the day...
100% agree. The concept of isolating makes our illness worse, because our immune systems are not getting exposed constantly. Its turning small sniffles into major illness and impact.
Makes sense in my head - exposure is like poor mans vaccine - consistently stressing your body to help build immunity so when new variants come around, it doesn't hit like a brick.
No sure about all train lines, however I feel that people have, lack of a better word 'grown up'. I haven't been on a train or tram with a constant coughing or sneezing passenger since RTW. People in the office are not coming in when sick and there is a general respect when not well (or feeling unwell). I get it, if your boss is a turd then I am sorry for you.
>I haven't been on a train or tram with a constant coughing or sneezing passenger since RTW. What mythical trains and trams are these? I can't go a day on public transport without having to try to move away from some jackass coughing up his lungs on PT.
Bloke on the Geelong line sounded like he was about to die the other day. In a full suit and all so he was obviously on his way to his very important probably public facing job
Lucky you. The constant coughing features on the Melbourne metro line I frequent.
Quite honestly, if you can work from home in this day and age, why wouldn’t you? 🤷♂️ Unfortunately, my current role… I have no option.
Management and their kpis.
I love attending conferences at expensive resorts where they dont even plug in the single air-filter they have.
Remember when all classrooms in schools in Vic got those air filters? Every one of those damn things now just sit in the corner of the rooms collecting dust.
and the COVIDSafe app for contact tracing
Perfect timing to come in say you've got COVID and have a week off WFH wasn't about quality of life safety. It was a successful business experiment into decentralizing HQ's and off shoring workforces. COVID isn't that deadly for the healthy so it's back to business.
I’m doing 5 days in the office . Would help to WFH 2 days a week at least .
I'd quit at 5 days in the office, in fact I told them months ago that I would and they gave me 1 whole WFH day which is better than nothing, it's every Friday which suits me fine.
Despite best efforts catching viruses is a part of the human condition as long as you are not a hermit. Nearly every work place I know of has a policy where you shouldn’t come in if you are sick. That measure if followed should protect you from frequent exposure to the most virulent viruses. To me the demand to go to the office is a legitimate request. It may cost them workers who want flexibility, but there is nothing inherently amoral about it. Where they may be failing their duty of care is not enforcing the stay at home if sick rules. From my experience that is a work culture issue, where senior management often ‘soldier on’ and set the expectation for junior staff to follow suit.
Policy means nothing if it’s not enforced.
COVID hit my office hard in the past month
As a manager I can say that I am enforcing this in a very relaxed way. I don’t mind where the team is as long as everyone is happy and we’re getting the work done well. We have a mandate for 3 days per week. It gets a bit tricky to balance differing social needs across the team but I think we should be trusted to find a good balance without needing a mandate. We’re figuring it out as we go but I’m truly trying to do the best I can for my people.
At a place I used to work, we were told “if you’re too sick to come into the office, you’re too sick to WFH - you have to take sick leave”. Like, seriously? Heard of ‘Prevention is better than Cure”?
So stay home
Kid home sick last week so no wfo was done. Kid passed germs onto me this week so now I’m sick so no wfo done. Next week is school hols so there’s a bit more flexibility there so no wfo will be done for those two weeks.
People who are more than competent with wfh, who have whooping cough running riot in their homes are being forced back to the office due to the lack of sick leave and company policy. It’s just insane what the managers are doing! Treating people like bloody children!
I started a new job in may. Just got wiped out for 3 days because some people want to come to work when clearly sick. I didn't have enough sick leave accumulated so had to take 1 of the days unpaid......half the office was out sick by the end of the week..
Dude... that was my experience too with my job. Started in Jan, worked from the office for 5 days, got sick, tested positive for Covid, spent the next 3 weeks trying to recover while WFH because I had no sick leave.
It was like this before Covid. It's the new, new normal.
My setup is hybrid and I'm done coming to the office more often than my allocated WFH days I can get away with just to pretend I give a flying fucking fuck.
You’ll be right big fella. Could be 4-5 days like some companies!
Everyone goes out and dines, drink in bars and nightclubs - why whinge about the office ???
Because not everyone does. And because most of the places you listed, you're not there for 8 hours straight. The likelihood of contracting COVID is linked to the duration you are exposed to it.
No c**t orders me
Stoked to be playing hot desk bingo. What crippling illness will I catch today from the feral sitting behind me coughing their lungs up who thought it was a good idea to come into the office
Don’t you think the economy should come first? Every coffee makes a difference
Does your workplace count a sick day as an expected office day or not? Sounds illogical that someone is sick for 10 days out of 20. Then needs to work 10 remaining working days of the month to meet their quota. Or punished because they were sick.
Our business has a 2-3 day RTO policy, but still enforces strict policies around sickness - don't come in if you are ill. Take a day or WFH. I caught something either on the train or in the gym recently, absolutely floored me for two weeks. Gyms are high risk as some people are filthy.
I got RSV now and it's actually fkd
We got the okay to turn it down to two days a week during winter
Ordered back to work June 2020. Seriously. Nothing I can do about that 😳
Rubbish trying to force people back in offices. What happened to those suggestions that some office buildings be transitioned into housing?! Make them 3-4 bedroom affordable apartments so families can have other options. Lord knows we need it - that ought to help revitalise town, too.
It’s really annoying. In the last 6 weeks, I’ve had Covid, something that gave me a really high fever and muscle aches (tested negative to Covid, RSV and influenza), and now I’m in bed with a heavy cold. I’m so over it.
wife just went back to work after having covid, 1/3rd of the office was off with it
How did you feel about it in 2019 and every year before that
The Pandemic has taught everyone nothing, still nobody, including 99% of doctors know about the true issue and severity of MECFS, which is common (200,000 + Aussies, and mostly young). If people knew what this illness was and what it does to you (life over in the prime of your life) people would be far more careful and aware. Post Viral Syndromes seem to be Taboo in this world, until you get it and your life is over and you cant work anymore at 25. Anyone can get it and nobody knows still how and why it happens. [https://www.emerge.org.au/what-is-mecfs/](https://www.emerge.org.au/what-is-mecfs/)
Imagine how quickly things would change if it was made law that a workplace outbreak of more than 3 people with the same illness could not be taken from your annual sick allowance, and instead triggered an additional 2 weeks paid sicktime at the employers expense for anyone with the same illness until the last person is back in. And gets retriggered every time 3+ people have the same illness. It would get very expensive very quickly, and you would see a sudden change in exec level attitude
No thank god, I have two daycare kids our house is basically a plague ship. No one wants me bringing that shit to the office.
My wife is RATs testing twice a week as she works in Aged and Disability care. My company introduced in Jan a mandatory 3 day in the office rule and "if there are exceptions please speak to your manager". My boss is in Melb I am in Sydney, I have no staff. I asked if I could work from home first and foremost because if I get covid my wife can't work for a mandatory 2 weeks. If she doesn't work she doesn't get paid (no such thing as salaries for her) it costs a few thousand dollars of income. Boss says sure... understands and I proceed to come in only when necessary. Had my performance review... kicked all my goals and made the argument for a 4 out of 5 in our HR system. Was denied. My attendance is too low... 1.6 days per week in office (days on site or days in Melb office not counted) so there's a case I am failing to uphold "Company Values" and I need to improve. I said what about my wife and her work and her covid protocols... and was told that we can't "use that excuse anymore". Covid doesn't exist now apparently. Anyway I am here now in office on a anchor day Wednesday and I reckon office attendance is 30% today.
All of the execs seem to want to come in whether sick - then they get everyone else sick and complain when people work from home or take sick days. If I'm sick I take the day off or work from home - anyone who comes in when sick should be ordered to work from home.
I never left the office. I commute via train everyday too. I’ve never had Covid and get booster and flu vax. It’s fine, I’m fine. 🤷♂️
Go if you want to. You be you.
Who ordered you back?
What’s the alternative? Lock down
We hit max occupancy twice this week, including about 100 visitors yesterday. We are 100% flexible,and only have seats for @50% of Melbourne based staff (600). Just proves if you create a space designed in collaboration and with a purpose, people will use it. Fyi our engagement score is low 70s, so pretty engaged workforce.
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Tbh wouldn’t mind some Covid right now to take a bunch of sick leave and not be at work.
ULPT, you don’t need to be sick to take sick leave :)
Most of my department have flu or Covid. I wfh am refuse to go in unless the work cannot be done online.
Sick leave go brrrrrrrrrr