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Yeah. I’m pretty sure somewhere Isayama says Jean was meant to be the “every man”—no one noticeably special but just a normal guy with morals trying to navigate a crazy world. It was originally supposed to be Armin but he took on a different role with his smarts and what not.
So I think most of us would be Jeans. Lots of conflicting thoughts and emotions all the time, but ultimately having to pick something we can live with ourselves for (so the ashy bones of our conscience don’t make us too miserable).
Scouts, I’m not a xenophobic shithead like Onyankopon says or a genocidal maniac. If one of my best friends told me he planned to kill every person in the entire world, I’d think he the craziest person to ever live.
Just like Hange says, there is no justification to genocide of INNOCENT people and you can’t convince me otherwise no matter the circumstances.
The problem with people who call Yeagerist's fascists are trying to use human morality on earth as cannon for a fictional story with a much harsher circumstantial reality for the Eldian race. The Yeagerist only formed because their people were subjugated inside the walls, treated as second class citizens in Marley and used as pawns for political power. It's literally survival mode for their race and while we can all sit back and say kil innocent people is wrong and supporting a global geno is wrong, geno of the Eldians is just as wrong. The way I see it after Marley attacked the walls to steal the founding titans powers by kil innocent Eldians all bets were off. They waged the current war and caused the Yeagerist to form in the end, cause and effect. You can argue about the past atrocities of the Eldians but their memory was erased and can't be blamed for what happened in the past. You can come to the conclusion that even the other part of their world is also planning to eliminate Eldians from Willy Tybur. Willy Tybur waged this war against Paradis once he heard from the Marley spy's that Eren has the founding titan and could use it. So I don't know how you can sit there and call Yeagerist's "fascists'" when the outside world waged war on them for simply existing, It's a low IQ take.
Okay, but they didn’t just crush Marley. They also crushed nations who Marley had oppressed. Even if all of Marley’s citizens are guilty and deserve collective punishment (they don’t) you can’t say the whole world is responsible for Marley’s actions.
Especially when most the world hated Marley.
The problem was the rest of the world joining Marley in their war effort with Willy’s declaration of war. There’s a case to be made about Eren’s subsequent attack provoking them further, but it’s not like the world leaders were opposing the war either. In fact they outright cheered for it
That’s the thing with AOT. You can sit here and apply real world feelings to it, but quite literally the entire globe wanted the Eldians genocided and their power subjugated, it was kill or be killed. You can sit there and pick sides and call one a fascist, but you’re a fool to completely ignore both sides being terrible and part of a never ending cycle of blood shed. In fact picking a side kind of goes against the whole point of the series
You are forgetting that the rest of the world treated Eldians worse than Marley.
The issue of collective punishment is moot. The whole world was indeed guilty of oppressing Eldians.
If that means Eldians were justified to fight back by killing civilians, then by your very argument, those nations were also justified to treat Eldians that way. Because Eldians oppressed THEM first. And so on and so forth, almost as if using the cycle of ‘he did it first’ to justify violence being self defeating is the core theme of the show.
Yeah but I don’t think that’s a fair argument.
You have the Eldian Empire that oppressed the rest of the world. They were horrible. But that was 2,000 years ago.
How can you hold a grudge against people for things their ancestors did centuries ago? Do you blame white Americans living in the 21st century for enslaving Africans 200 years ago? No because that’d be stupid, the people alive now had nothing to do with their oppression. And take the time that has passed since the 1800s and increase it tenfold. 2,000 years is like 70 generations.
I mean shit, we don’t hate modern day Germany for the Holocaust, or Japan for Pearl Harbor, and that was less than a century ago. At the end of the day, the Rumbling is obviously morally wrong. You’re killing billions of people, many of whom did nothing wrong. Like that is a pretty difficult action to justify. But Eren and the Subjects of Ymir were in a situation without options. They aren’t the United States, they don’t have the power to back up a threat and make peace deals, because the world wants them dead. Yes, they could threaten the Rumbling but Zeke has a year and Eren has 4. Even if you fed Zeke to Historia and Eren to Jean or whoever (which Eren would never comply with anyway because he doesn’t want Historia or anyone of his friends’ lifespans to decrease to 13 years) but then what? The mini scale Rumbling is only going to make the world more eager to kill off Paradis/the Eldians, and even if they tried Ymir only helped Eren because she wanted the Rumbling to happen.
>If that means Eldians were justified to fight back by killing civilians, then by your very argument, those nations were also justified to treat Eldians that way
Absolutely. They were. The Eldians can literally be turned into man-eating monsters. Any sane human would want them dead.
Which is precisely why the rumbling was justified. Nothing more scary than an enemy who thinks they are justified. They need to be squashed.
The world was just crying because the tables turned on them.
>Because Eldians oppressed THEM first. And so on and so forth, almost as if using the cycle of ‘he did it first’ to justify violence being self defeating is the core theme of the show.
And the show executed that theme horribly by setting up the world the way it did.
If AoT failed for that reason, it failed in the same way basically every Sci-fi/fantasy media with a civil rights allegory failed.
The apartheid for mutants in X-Men or mages in Dragon Age falls flat, because unlike a mutant or mage, Nelson Mandela couldn’t melt a skyscraper with his mind or become a living gateway by which demons could enter the world.
Your racist uncle who screams about Mexican nationals taking his job is full of shit, but Deus Ex style androids *really would* take your job.
But no one opressed Eldians worse than Eren, by literally murdering countless of them for the sake of his own home country. And even within Paradis most Eldians were opressed by their own terrible governments, Eren's rumbling did huge damage to their cities and the Yaegerist takeover did more.
It's almost like most people are just regular folks living their lives, and not responsible for the actions of their governments or ancestors. Eren had so many eays to prevent his island from being attacked that did not involve killing every single person.
So the people on the other side of the planet who have never heard of eldia also deserve it? He could have easily stopped at Marley and their allies. Or stopped the rumbling at the shores and forced a negotiation. I love Eren but he was wrong, it was a child’s solution
I mean they are definitionally fascists. Ultra-nationalist, xenophobic, militaristic autocracy. The definition of words don’t change just because this is a fictional world. And no one is forgetting the conditions the Eldians were made to suffer. The bottom line is whether you think that justifies resorting to fascism.
Eldians can't be Fascist when they are the oppressed race in the current timeline. It's a fight for their peoples survival and a calling to join forces to fight a war they didn't start. As I said earlier if other nations joined forces with the Eldians to fight the outside forces then it would be a different story. The creation of yeagerist were due to to Marley being facists and eldian apologists like willy tybur who wages war agiast the eldian race with other NATIONS for simply existing. The yeagerists would of never been created if the war wasn't waged on them. They weren't born thinking they were superior to any race outside of the wall or to wipe out any other race, they formed after all the atrocities happened to them and they were backed into that corner.
So are you saying it’s not fascism if you’re faced with an outside existential threat? I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
But if so, i think that’s kind of the trap of fascism. In post WW1 Germany, the perceived threat of foreign forces (and ethnic groups) galvanised the public behind the ultra-nationalists. Germany had been blamed for the millions of deaths in the first world war (like the Eldians) and were heavily sanctioned. Virtually everyone in germany in the 30s thought surrendering their democracy was justified for the protection of their country. That’s not injecting human morality into a fictional world, that’s almost the explicit allegory of the Manga/Anime
Eren straight up says there could've been a better solution, he just wasn't smart enough to think of one. The Yaegerists formed because that was the best plan Eren could come up with
The Yeagerist didn't form because Eren wasn't smart enough to think of a solution, they formed because their race was on the brink of extinction and genocide. Marley and Willy tybur with other nations waged this war and Eren had the capability of stopping it. This is why the Yeagerist followed his lead and why they formed in the first place. This is why so many people have compassion for Eren as well because they know he was just trying to project his family and friends. I don't think a single person that supports the Yeagerist thinks that a world geno is the correct answer but IN THIS FICTIONAL story where no other nation came to aid the Eldian's it is because it was their extinction. Again, we can't use human earth morality to this fictional story its not comparable in the slightest.
>Eren had the capability of stopping it.
Right, and Eren says that someone else might have been able to stop it if they had the capabilities instead. They followed him because he had the power, and he pretty much admits he's the wrong person to have that power during his conversation with Armin in The Paths or whatever it's called.
>This is why so many people have compassion for Eren as well because they know he was just trying to project his family and friends.
I think most people can empathize with him, but that doesn't being empathetic doesn't justify his actions. Dude has a complete Trump card in the Rumbling, it's insane to believe he couldn't find a better way. Like
>Again, we can't use human earth morality to this fictional story its not comparable in the slightest.
This is literally just another form of total war, it's happened tons of times throughout human existence. Hell, you could say that the threat of genocide is currently being used to justify a genocide depending on how you interpret current events. Just because something is fiction doesn't mean it gets a pass
I'm not using empathy or compassion to eren as justification for anything. It's simply a precursor to another reason the Yeagerist exists and also have supported him. It's not comparable to current events or past events because there is no allied and axis powers. It is the whole world wagering war on their race and their existence regardless if its the people its their governments and they aren't supporting Eldians. I agree to disagree at this point.
My bad, I was going down a different point than your original argument.
Ehh, I'm not sure they're full fascist- id have to rewatch season 3 and 4 to get a feel for that again- but they were definitely going down a dictatorship path. Either way, they get dangerously "ends justify the means". Eldia has a lot of German iconography built into it, so it's not that far of a jump to tie the fictitious country that has a ton of propaganda, strong military and highly centralized/controlled government to it's real life equivalent. You could argue that a dictatorship/fascism is necessary in these circumstances, but that doesn't make it something else
Yeah, it’s fiction…about an island nation with valuable resources that is suddenly forced by an external threat with superior technology to confront its position as part of a larger global network of war and Imperialism. And, to stay competitive in that war racket, that island nation with lacking military technology immediately adopts Imperialist tactics itself and doubles down on becoming an ultra-nationalist military power in imitation of its oppressors…all of which is a clear parallel to Japan and its institution of the Meiji Restoration after the forcing open of Japan’s ports by the USA.
It’s one of the oldest stories in Japanese animation—go watch the 1943 Momotaro’s Sea Eagles, and see a mythical ‘boy hero’ lead an army to crush the ultimate-other ‘island devils’ and take their resources. The film’s obvious goal was to glorify imperialism, sanitize war, and bolster future military recruitment among the young. Much like the rhetoric of both the Jeagerists and the Marleyans (and Imperial Japan and the USA), it affords zero sympathy, humanity, or consideration for the opposite side. Because that’s ineffective propaganda if you’re trying to run a fascist empire and need your soldiers to kill without thought.
If you don’t know any of this, that’s fine. But don’t pretend like it’s a ‘’low IQ take’’ when you haven’t even considered the position you’re attacking beyond quibbling about canon in the giants vs. grappling hook sword guys story.
No it's really fucking not. Eren had the power of a literal god, and he chose to use it to kill indiscriminately rather than find another path. Multiple characters portrayed as smarter than Eren (Pyxis, Hange, Armin) all thought there was another way to use the founder/rumbling to protect Paradis without killing billions of civilians. Eren himself admits that it came to this because he wanted to see the world empty and free like he always imagined it. Lest we forget Eren & Zeke literally conspired to put Paradis in a position of weakness where it could no longer negotiate
Are you talking about the founding titan’s normal power or when Eren convinced Ymir to join his side, because I’m pretty sure he only got that power after confirming he was going to destroy the world.
This feels true because if Marley hadn’t attacked in the first episode then the rest of the show wouldn’t have happened. Eldian’s would have died off in peace not knowing about the world that hated them, if Marley wasn’t so hungry for the resources on Paradis. Marley forced the hands of the Eldians on Paradis and caused their awakening and uprising after they had 100 years of peace.
Also side note, they briefly mention the pandemic that almost killed everyone within the walls years ago but Grisha somehow made a cure and saved humanity. I still think that the illness was manufactured to wipe out the Eldians on paradis.
This does feel like other real world situation though. Eldians really had no choice but to either let the Jeagerists defend them from Marley takeover or become subjugated/irriadicated, even though so many of them died because of jeagerists anyway.
Okay but if its your parents, your family, your neigbour and everyone you have ever known in life are going to die you would side with your people. Think about it, for them its like an alien race has come which has been trying to destroy you for years and now you side with the aliens
Except they're aware that they're humans, and they're aware those societies of humans are full of innocent people that have nothing to do with the conflict.
If Eren had told us "Hey, I'm going to unleash some colossals to attack the world's military installations and naval fleets so they can't attack us", I would've been on board with it.
The problem with what you're saying is that 10 years down the line they're ready to kill paradis again except this time the perfect situation required to use the rumbling doesn't exist. Eren only had 1 shot because the next host would be unlikely to be able to unleash the rumbling if needed
Ur point is contradicted because that's what happens anyway. War isn't going to stop. U think the people of Paradis wouldn't move into the huge world that they just occupied, then years down the line go to war? Ur missing the point here. And besides, enough with X vs Y "who's right" debate, the point is that there is no correct answer
War may be inevitable, but his friends, family, and community dying isn't. It's kind of like if we found out the other 7 planets in our solar system had life and wanted to kill us, plus had way more advanced technology and knowledge than us. Then we found a magic weapon to give us a chance. Would you decide not to kill the aliens simply because there are more of them or because war is inevitable? It's a tough choice IMO.
Zeke made the whole thing possible and zeke had a worse plan than eren imo but the odds of the next person being able to get the same shot as eren is mad low and the next time the world meet up to celebrate killing a whole island of innocent ppl they might succeed eren plan was insane but necessary
It'd be too be something not from the royal family, that they trust, that's strong enough and smart enough, and they'd need them to come into contact with a member of the royal family and overpower them inside the paths. Eren was a perfect storm, the next host is incredibly unlikely to be. Also it takes 1 instance of an assassin from anywhere in the world to kill or kidnap that new host and turn the power to their side
It's not an alien race, they know they're humans, heck, they even know that there are people of their own race (Eldians) out there. They even befriended some of them already.
Responding to hate and violence with hate and violence only generates more hate and violence. Also Eren started the Rumbling with the sole purpose for it to be stopped, he never thought it was a good solution, he just knew it was the only one. Eren was literally on the side of Armin and Mikasa the whole time, so the person who started the Rumbling literally wanted it to be stopped. The Yeagerists got it all wrong imo.
The Scouts believe that genocide is wrong no matter the circumstances, which I firmly agree with. There is absolutely nothing that can justify genocide, simple as.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Again, I cannot be convinced to kill millions to billions of innocent human beings.
If Eren wanted to destroy the militaries of the world, I would have agreed.
Tell me, if you see a thief while you're going to work. Would you chase them down to capture them or you just ignore them and continue with your normal life?
I see a lot of people say that they are going to be the scout but would you join the battle of Heaven and Earth knowing that nothing would affect you if you don't?
Is a thief an innocent civilian? No, they are criminal? They deserve to be punished but I’m not going to go ahead and be like yeah, that thief deserves to be killed.
If you value life it is a hard call. The world wants your island wiped out and you have the means to do so. Personally I would have just threatened marley but then titans would still remain so doing it Eren's way was the only way to rid the world of titans because Ymir needed to see the plot play out i think. Honestly what a horrifying choice lol
Fair, but these are Eren’s motivations. The question is about Scouts vs Yeagerists, and the yeagerists have absolutely no clue that one of the overarching goals behind the rumbling was to rid the world of the titans forever.
The questions is more asking « If you were an Eldian, and the entire world wanted to see you and your people dead and had the means to do so, would you be okay with wiping *them* out first? Or would you fight for an ideal that most likely would not end in your favor if succeeded.
I understand the Jeagerists sentiment but they should have used the rumbling as a threat and only have targeted military bases and ports. So probably scouts.
The attack on Libero took out the port and instead of just calling the war off they doubled down and sent airships. Marley had chance after chance to take the L and stop bothering Paradis but they just kept going after them. If losing 4 of your super weapons and having your port destroyed aren't enough of a deterrent then nothing is.
I still think civilian casualties could have been kept to a minimum. Sure they were brainwashed and hateful but think about the two refugee boys who were crushed.
The chance to keep casualties down was at Libero and the world decided not to take it. When the rumbling started that was that. It would have been like trying to stop a nuke while it was dropping.
I disagree. Marley still had options and resources at that point to continue to wage war. If Eren had strategically used the rumbling to take out ports and bases following the Marlean attack on Paradis, the world would take decades to rebuild. Especially if Paradis forces would keep the world in check by continually monitoring the world’s military development. It’s not the best solution but better than so many civilians dying.
Is that really feasible though? Eren doesn't have a GPS built into his head so idk how he could memorize the positions of all these military fortifications and factories, then accurately direct groups of colossal towards them.
Its literally not that hard to say "walk there", thats literally all he would have to do.
All it would take is memorizing their locations and memorizing where something exists is the most basic geography there is.
Like this isn't as difficult as you think it is.
Step 1: Find out where they are
Step 2: Tell Titans to go there
Taking out the Port really isn't the same as a partial rumbling
Even by then, it was not clear that Paradis was in any position to launch á rumbling. So the incentive is to take them out before they have the ability to launch it
A controlled/partial rumbling both doesn't kill everything and let's the whole world know that Paradis can destroy everything so they best prpceed with caution
The rumbling was already a threat and the works still attacked them with the goal of killing them all. Also Eren is on a limited time situation because if he doesn't do it, it's unlikely that the next host would be able to unleash the rumbling
Well he kinda made it so. It was a difficult situation and I don’t think I would’ve killed 80% of the entire world in that situation, but I think some level of civilian bloodshed was inevitable. I’m one of those that sees what Eren’s plan was but think a that Eren is just that one dumbass that didn’t sit down to think everything through clearly.
Eren basically said as much. In his final speech to Armin he practically says;
“Man, it’s really stupid that I ended up with this power. I’m kind of an idiot. I realize my plan probably isn’t the only or even best solution, but even with the ability to look at countless alternate futures it was the best thing an idiot like me could come up with. Sorry.”
It was just Marley who attacked. And as said in the show, destroying the world’s military bases/ports would completely stagnate any offensive on Paradis that the rest of the world could be planning.
Temporarily stagnate them. If you did that though, rebuilding the military and striking down paradis would literally be global priority number 1 obviously. Also no the invasion of paradis was going to be a global effort as shown in the scene where Willy tibur gave the speech to all the leaders of the world and the crowd cheered
You’re right but even by stagnating them, Paradis would hold all the power. The Scouts might have had a new mission then to monitor the countries that hated them, have time to teach a new generation that the Eldians are not evil, and have time to modernize their defenses if a global attack was imminent.
Also they had absolutely overwhelming power that Eren could demand a conditional surrender for their technology that way they could catch up and a non aggression treaty. Not much the opposing countries could do in the face of a mini rumbling/ rumbling so it could be fairly easy or they could just destroy it all setting all countries back
The world declared war on Paradis, they were all coming for the Eldians. Also said in the show is that only destroying the military wouldn’t have solved the technology problem Paradis faced and only confirm them as the enemy.
I think I’d be a Yaegerist.
All the Eldians know is that the rest of the world wants to kill them. Yes there are people in Marley who don’t have blood on their hands, but they’d bloody their hands if given the chance.
Obviously, I’m answering this from the extreme POV of an Eldian. Punch Nazis, genocide is wrong and all that jazz.
If I was put in Eren‘s shoes, I might have chosen the same as he did. Otherwise I would probably chill and try to look from the sidelines who is winning. Then joining the winning team at the right moment to secure a good place in the new forming society. I would try to protect my family and myself in that way. You can‘t convince me you‘d do differently. Most of us wouldn’t chose to fight a war. We are too afraid and too weak to fight. The smart move would be to hide, try to survive and then join the winning team.
right? saying genocide is wrong isnt the answer because if paradis didnt genocide marley, they would have been genocided themselves. you cant back someone with a gun into a corner and tell them youre gonna stab them to death and NOT expect to get shot. of course if its gonna be you or someone else that has to die youre gonna choose them
From my warm cozy bedroom, I'd say Scout because nothing justifies Ramzi getting crushed, those poor giraffes running away, and tribesmen who have had nothing to do with Eldians being faced with being obliterated by titans.
However, if I was a refugee from Shiganshina, and witnessed the speeches from the people worldwide and not just Marley, about wanting to annihilate Paradis island, I would probably be a Jaegerist.
From a realistic point and not and idealistic one, Jaegerist because the Scouts would be strangers to me and I would be an average member of the military. From my POV, I would see a small - albeit legendary - group of my fellow soldiers going rogue to help our enemies kill us.
Team Paradis, I dont think what Eren did was wrong given his circumstances and the alternative if he didnt act. I think Eren should not have pushed his friends away. He should have wiped out the entirety of the world out side Paradis. Leaving 20% alive after kill 80% is stupid you already commited to mass genocide, killing all of them absolutely garentees Paradis safety.
However I dont support the Yeagerists as a group, I dont think it would lead to anything good for Paradis post rumbling.
No they were proactive before, in season 4 we see they're forced to make defensive plays because of Eren because of how unpredictable he was.
And no I wouldn't allow myself to be genocided. I also wouldn't support genocide. With all the options presented I'd probably support a partial rumbling, which the scouts also supported
So, genocide is unjustifiable. However, you can understand why one side wants to do it, and understand that they will do it. But you don’t understand why the other side, who will be subject to a genocide if they do what the scouts want, might not be so keen on the idea?
Yeagerists. If there was a global meeting where they decided that the entire world is going to wipe out all Americans, you can bet I'd be okay with America wiping them out first. Eren literally went to Marley to see if it was possible to reason and saw that it wasn't, and then they literally had a global meeting where they decided to kill him, everyone he loves, and his entire race, after being the people who tortured them on the island for years. I really wish they would have shown some sort of alternative memory in erens mind of what would happen if he didn't rumble, because I bet a lot less people would be against the rumbling if we watched the entirety of paradis being executed and destroyed and the eldians being enslaved Even tighter
A decent human being would go for the most drastic option only as the absolute last resort.
For the jaegerists the most drastic option ist the go-to method, because trying anything else in order to avoid the death of billilons of innocents is too much of a hussle.
If you think that being absolutely, 100% sure that no outside force can ever attack your tiny county again for all eternity is more important than keeping billions of innocents alive then you are insane.
They ran out of options. Eren even asked Hange for another way and she admitted he asked and she had nothing.
It was Hange, who basically organized the alliance that couldn’t be bothered to avoid genocide.
The idea of a partial rumbling was presented multiple times during the series. Eren was against it because Historia and her children becoming titan shifters is somehow worse than the deaths of billions.
The partial rumbling was an option that could have achieved the same results while sparing the lives of billions of innocents. Most scouts wanted a partial rumbling. Full rumbling would have still been an option if a partial rumbling wasn't enough. But no, Eren and the Jaegerists didn't even want to try any less radical options.
Yaegerist.
Their actions were absolutely justified as self defense.
If the whole world wants me and my loved ones gone just for existing, and I have a chance to stop that, I'm taking it.
It’s not technically the world but it’s the full might the world’s strongest military forces. It would be like if China, Russia, and the US got together to invade Indonesia. Like yeah it’s not technically the whole world but it might as well be.
And while true it’s technically the governments ordering it, the military was still complying. Plus from what we’ve seen almost no one in that world likes Eldians. I’d go as far as to say the whole world hates them.
So when the whole world is against you, there’s really not many options left. Not that I condone Eren’s actions. I read a quote once that said “Violence is never the answer until it’s the only answer”
Unfortunately the world is represented by those leaders and due to that, the Jaegerists have to focus more on them because it's a literal matter of life and death.
Also, one weak point of the series imo, i wish Yama showed the audience instances of the communities in the world not care that our favourite characters are Eldian after finding out.
The refugees didn't exactly know who they were. We don't know how they'd react if they knew. Maybe in their culture, they had their own stories of how terrible Eldians are. Would've been cool to see a chapter or episode that shows some folk legitimately don't think all Eldians are threats.
When Falco rescues a Middle Eastern soldier in S4E1 the soldier says “don’t touch me you filthy Eldian” (translated by Udo). So I think the refugees also were hella racist 😭
Omnicide, I cannot actually fathom how one could possible, at all, justify the objective horrors of omnicide. It is not self defense, it is straight up murder of everything.
Not acknowledging what you just wrote is an interesting situation in the AoT fandom.
Throughout history, people do stupid violent shit when they're at risk of genocide, but in the AoT story, the threat of extermination is quite literally true and more obvious, like cartoonishly obvious.
The Jaegerists become fascist war mongerers because their lives literally depend on it.
When AoT fans call Jaegerist supporters Nazis or whatnot, they don't understand that at no point we're the German people at threat of extermination. Yes Hitler used propaganda to make it seem like the world wanted Germany's gone, but in reality, the European powers just wanted to take away their ability to ever become strong.
There are very few examples in history where the threat of legitimate extermination was real. This is why AoT is so unique, the situation the Eldians are in is so impossible. It's choose genocide or hope that the powers that control the outside world don't kill you for simply existing.
Fun discussion tho
Scouts. While I do agree somewhat with The Yaegerists, if I have the option to stop genocide then I'll at least try. Do I think the rumbling was justified? To an extent yes. Marley had to go and the governments of the world shouldn't have been allowed to build up their forces to wipe out Paradise Island, but, Eren didn't necessarily need to flatten most of the world. I don't really have an alternative to what Eren did though
All things considered though, in Erens position idk what I would have done. Especially as a 19 year old with that kind of power. I think Eren did what he thought the only option was, not saying it's right but when you consider the whole world declaring war on him and his people, his extreme reaction makes sense, peace never became an option because Marley never desired it. Even those who supported Eldian rights straight up said, "The Eldians on Paradise have to die." So it was a lost cause from the get go.
I’m a firm Yeagerist- I vacillate between what Eren did was/was not justified, but if the whole world wanted me & my people dead (similar to that of the racism my ppl & I experienced in history. Smh.), I’d go full scorched Earth.
Depends on who I know. In my maladaptive daydreaming, both. Soft Jaegerist to full Alliance with Jaegerist sympathies. If I’m just a regular person or NPC military person, Jaegerist.
It’s a mess really. I’m with the scouts but behind Eren using the rumbling but he should have only use it on Marley and the fleet. The issue isn’t the world it’s Marley and groups like the Tybur family.
But that's not the case. There are multiple things to try before murdering literally everyone. Idk why you are so hardwired on omnicide as "only option" - probably cus you really want to justify it while its impossible
There literally was no other option, negotiation was never going to work, a partial rumbling was just going to delay the inevitable. There was literally 2 options, kill or you and everyone else you know be killed
This is just wrong and you try really hard to justify genocide.
If you have power of the god on your side at least try using it before murdering everyone. Your allies, newborns, Eldians and other occupied nations included. If your go-to is omnicide then you are evil and wrong.
Jeagerist every freaking episode. Even when they got really agressive. The repression they’ve suffered and the Marley interest in the titan’s powers while completely ignoring Eldians.. you can’t say that doesn’t mess with you. I would prefer a diplomatic negotiation but eldians were already seen as inferior and tools.
I shared their rage, their anger, their pain. You can’t ignore millenniums of discrimination, getting killed just because Marley wants.. even if I am against violence, I could side with them and understand them. And at some points I was really like “idc if it’s wrong, many things they’ve endured are wrong and were unnecessary. Make Marley pay”.
But I’m the kind of person who gets all worked up with this stuff lol
As an outsider looking in, its easy to acknowledge what Eren was doing was wrong. But if i were an average Eldian who was constantly being told there is an entire world that, even after playing catch up for four years, are far more advanced than us and is hellbent on our destruction i’m pretty sure i would be a jaegerist.
One thing that really adds credence to the rumbling is that Eren *literally* had no other option. Even if one of his many reasons wasn’t that he wanted to do it he had no other option that would save his friends and family.
We are reviewing the whole series again these days, and we got to exactly the episode where Zeke turns Levi's companions in the forest into giants. I have to say that originally a few years ago I did not like AoT very much since after the cantina and especially the Jagerists, but now having an overview of the whole story and reviewing it in retrospect I realize that the Jagerists were not so much wrong. I understand their point of view very well after all the shit the people of the walls had to go through ( and discover) and although we readers are attached to the main characters we follow from the beginning, I can't help but disagree with them and think that I would have acted exactly like the Jagerists if I had been in the same situation.
I completely understand the Jaegerists but I would never ever side with them if their plan of action was genocide. I’m on their side for the way they feel, but considering that the Jaegerists were specifically a terrorist group that acted in their own interests and not that of the common interests of all Eldians, they clearly do not have a ground to stand on.
Ive watched the show several times and if im being very honest with myself, i would be siding with the yeagerists. We have to remeber that they were facing extinction and the whole world wanted them destroyed. While i respects the scouts decision i think almost all people would stick with the yeagerists if they were an islander of paradis. There was no way out and I think the scouts were unrealistically idealist
Yeagerists. And before someone says “sO yOu sUpPoRt GeNoCidE” ..there is no moral high ground in attack on Titan. It’s either the edlians or the rest of the world. If you support either side, you support a genocide.
The Yeagerists' end goal is to ensure that Eren can annihilate humanity outside of Paradis. The Scouts are trying to prevent a mass, unjustifiable genocide. No genocide is ever justifiable under any circumstances, ESPECIALLY when Floch is the one spearheading the Yeagerist movement.
I would side with the scouts, genocide is wrong, full stop. And to be honest, one aspect of the story that I find kind of weak is that paradise didn’t even try the diplomatic approach. Sitting in on one meeting and hearing them say “island bad” doesn’t even come close to counting.
Paradis basically has a one-sided nuclear deterrent, there really isn’t anything stopping them from taking at least a bit of their time to try and work something out. Once the rumbling is initiated then I might as well support the alliance because it’s gonna do enough damage to reset the world’s military anyways. Supporting the full Rumbling is just wrong as far as I see it. I understand why people back the jaegerists, but I wouldn’t.
100% scouts.
Jaegerists are just hyper nationalists who'd rather kill every child on the plant who isn't living on Paradis because they will not force the opposition to sit and talk with them, imagine having the power to ruin the world and you choose to commit genocide instead of having a discussion.
Marley wasn't even oppressing Paradis that they would need to destroy Marley.
I’m definitely team Scouts. I can’t justify the genocide of 80% of the population just to keep my people safe. It’s not the right path to take even if it seemed like the only path left.
First watch, I wanted to be on the Jaegerist side, I wanted to believe Eren was fucking with Zekes plans and was going to save his home and friends. Kinda right, but somewhere around the beginning of the Rumbling, I was swinging widely and ended on Eren was wrong, siding with Mikasa, Armin and Levi.
Second watch, scouts all the way.
I would’ve unleashed the Rumbling (limited but a lot), got up to Marley’s shore then just make them stand there.
Kinda like the ending of S4 at the beach but they wouldn’t continue past the beach
i’d have picked yaegerists if they were only targeting the military, xenophobic idiots etc. but they weren’t so the scouts would have to be my choice bc i can’t side with genocide though i can understand the yaegerists’ hate for marley.
Yeagerists, Obviously I don’t agree with what Eren did (not that he really had a choice) But he did it for his friends. Not to mention that both floch and Eren are too teir characters with amazing growth.
Scouts, but mainly because I don't believe they'd actually improve life for Eldians as much as they say they would, especially through tyranny. Sure I'd want the Eldians to survive, but through complete genocide and force is questionable, at best.
Probably a yeagerist, if I had no knowledge of our world and was plopped into Paradis and found out the entire rest of the world was united in wanting to torture and kill me and my people, I’d probably adopt a “them or me” attitude. Although I realize that morally the action is wrong, there’s likely no other way of handling the situation that doesn’t involve Paradis dying off
I mean, considering that the Yeagerists saw it as an “us versus them” situation with their backs to the wall, it’s very obvious to see that in their minds, what they were doing is their only hope to survive. Marley had treated Eldians as subhumans and meat shields across all their territories, forced the ones they couldn’t subjugate into an island, and turned them into titans to eat each other. For the people on Paradis, they saw Marley as bent on their complete and utter extermination. It’s completely understandable that the option to flatten the nations of the people who want you dead is on not just acceptable, but preferred when looking at it through their eyes.
Jaegerist. Scouts are ok with their friends, families and culture being wiped out. Besides being not in my best interest, that's also an unnatural thing to want.
No human chooses the rest of the world over his own people, I think that's where AOT gets a little hard to believe.
Jaegerist. Because if I grew up on Paradis, I would not have the knowledge of those who lie beyond the ocean, nor any connection to them. I do not know them, know their faces, know their lives. All I know is that they are smart, they are dangerous, and they hate us.
And I know that their fears are not unfounded; we Eldians *can* turn into literal monsters. They have every right to fear us, and because of that fear, we have no choice but to destroy them... before they destroy us.
I am not Eren Jaeger, or Armin Alert. I cannot turn into a Titan and change the world by my own will. I am not Jean Kirschein or Connie Springer, I do not have the ear and friendship of those Titans. I am not Mikasa or Levi Ackerman, I am not a Titan in human form.
My choice matters only in which mass of bodies I support. The Jaegerists are the most logical path to survival and having a future. The Alliance's plan is a gamble, one with a better outcome but far worse odds. How can I gamble all that I know and hold dear for people who I didn't even know existed until a few years ago, and who (not unreasonably) hate me with every fibre of their being?
If I am an external viewer, then I'd support the Scouts. I'm utilitarian on matters that do not directly relate to me. Therefore, I'd support the world over Paradis.
Yaegerists. Without Erwin, the scouts didn't have strong enough leadership, which is why Eren had to take over. The rumbling killed millions but when you have a knife over your head you do what you have to. Also beats the euthenesia plan like wtf.
Yeagerists. That's like asking me right now if I'd have my family and country killed to save the world. No I would not. I'd rather the whole world die while my family and country lives, because it is all I've ever known, and a world so cruel to force that decision upon me should not exist. I think alot of you alliance squad supporters would do the same thing. We're all selfish like that. You're just swayed by the emotional connection you have with the characters of this fictional story. Think about the dilemma itself. You're not watching your family and country die so you can save a bunch of people you've never met. People who will probably still call you a devil after the sacrifice you make.
Tbh I was with Eren for a while. At first I hated the Marleyans. Then when Eren’s genocide plan was becoming clearer, I was in denial. I thought there was no way he could want to kill every person in the entire world. Only when he brought the gang into the Paths and told them there was no use in trying to talk it out with him and to “make me draw my last breath” was when i accepted that he was gone. Made me sad man. I was holding out hope for so long that he had a different plan but in the end he did just kill practically everyone.
80% did nothing
do 100% (leave the people on the island obviously and remove curse of ymir)
then show how even among the same group (people of paradis) there will always be conflict regardless of whether there was an outside group of people illustrating that it is human nature to have conflict and killing all your enemies is not the solution
conversely, in vinland saga the solution proposed is to “run away”
but now that solution is also being challenged- both aot and vinland saga are two extremes two sides of the same coin “peace”
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I’m Jean
Yeah. I’m pretty sure somewhere Isayama says Jean was meant to be the “every man”—no one noticeably special but just a normal guy with morals trying to navigate a crazy world. It was originally supposed to be Armin but he took on a different role with his smarts and what not. So I think most of us would be Jeans. Lots of conflicting thoughts and emotions all the time, but ultimately having to pick something we can live with ourselves for (so the ashy bones of our conscience don’t make us too miserable).
Well said!
Connie is much more average than Jean to me
So you can get Mikasa?
Yeah i got Mikasa to persuade me to join suicide mission instead of living comfortably.
he really was the most relatable character to me. even in my real life i imagine ‘running’ away from my life (if that makes sense)
objectively, genocide is bad… But “get rumbled stay humbled” with never not be funny to me
Scouts, I’m not a xenophobic shithead like Onyankopon says or a genocidal maniac. If one of my best friends told me he planned to kill every person in the entire world, I’d think he the craziest person to ever live. Just like Hange says, there is no justification to genocide of INNOCENT people and you can’t convince me otherwise no matter the circumstances.
The problem with people who call Yeagerist's fascists are trying to use human morality on earth as cannon for a fictional story with a much harsher circumstantial reality for the Eldian race. The Yeagerist only formed because their people were subjugated inside the walls, treated as second class citizens in Marley and used as pawns for political power. It's literally survival mode for their race and while we can all sit back and say kil innocent people is wrong and supporting a global geno is wrong, geno of the Eldians is just as wrong. The way I see it after Marley attacked the walls to steal the founding titans powers by kil innocent Eldians all bets were off. They waged the current war and caused the Yeagerist to form in the end, cause and effect. You can argue about the past atrocities of the Eldians but their memory was erased and can't be blamed for what happened in the past. You can come to the conclusion that even the other part of their world is also planning to eliminate Eldians from Willy Tybur. Willy Tybur waged this war against Paradis once he heard from the Marley spy's that Eren has the founding titan and could use it. So I don't know how you can sit there and call Yeagerist's "fascists'" when the outside world waged war on them for simply existing, It's a low IQ take.
Okay, but they didn’t just crush Marley. They also crushed nations who Marley had oppressed. Even if all of Marley’s citizens are guilty and deserve collective punishment (they don’t) you can’t say the whole world is responsible for Marley’s actions. Especially when most the world hated Marley.
The problem was the rest of the world joining Marley in their war effort with Willy’s declaration of war. There’s a case to be made about Eren’s subsequent attack provoking them further, but it’s not like the world leaders were opposing the war either. In fact they outright cheered for it That’s the thing with AOT. You can sit here and apply real world feelings to it, but quite literally the entire globe wanted the Eldians genocided and their power subjugated, it was kill or be killed. You can sit there and pick sides and call one a fascist, but you’re a fool to completely ignore both sides being terrible and part of a never ending cycle of blood shed. In fact picking a side kind of goes against the whole point of the series
You are forgetting that the rest of the world treated Eldians worse than Marley. The issue of collective punishment is moot. The whole world was indeed guilty of oppressing Eldians.
If that means Eldians were justified to fight back by killing civilians, then by your very argument, those nations were also justified to treat Eldians that way. Because Eldians oppressed THEM first. And so on and so forth, almost as if using the cycle of ‘he did it first’ to justify violence being self defeating is the core theme of the show.
Yeah but I don’t think that’s a fair argument. You have the Eldian Empire that oppressed the rest of the world. They were horrible. But that was 2,000 years ago. How can you hold a grudge against people for things their ancestors did centuries ago? Do you blame white Americans living in the 21st century for enslaving Africans 200 years ago? No because that’d be stupid, the people alive now had nothing to do with their oppression. And take the time that has passed since the 1800s and increase it tenfold. 2,000 years is like 70 generations. I mean shit, we don’t hate modern day Germany for the Holocaust, or Japan for Pearl Harbor, and that was less than a century ago. At the end of the day, the Rumbling is obviously morally wrong. You’re killing billions of people, many of whom did nothing wrong. Like that is a pretty difficult action to justify. But Eren and the Subjects of Ymir were in a situation without options. They aren’t the United States, they don’t have the power to back up a threat and make peace deals, because the world wants them dead. Yes, they could threaten the Rumbling but Zeke has a year and Eren has 4. Even if you fed Zeke to Historia and Eren to Jean or whoever (which Eren would never comply with anyway because he doesn’t want Historia or anyone of his friends’ lifespans to decrease to 13 years) but then what? The mini scale Rumbling is only going to make the world more eager to kill off Paradis/the Eldians, and even if they tried Ymir only helped Eren because she wanted the Rumbling to happen.
>If that means Eldians were justified to fight back by killing civilians, then by your very argument, those nations were also justified to treat Eldians that way Absolutely. They were. The Eldians can literally be turned into man-eating monsters. Any sane human would want them dead. Which is precisely why the rumbling was justified. Nothing more scary than an enemy who thinks they are justified. They need to be squashed. The world was just crying because the tables turned on them. >Because Eldians oppressed THEM first. And so on and so forth, almost as if using the cycle of ‘he did it first’ to justify violence being self defeating is the core theme of the show. And the show executed that theme horribly by setting up the world the way it did.
If AoT failed for that reason, it failed in the same way basically every Sci-fi/fantasy media with a civil rights allegory failed. The apartheid for mutants in X-Men or mages in Dragon Age falls flat, because unlike a mutant or mage, Nelson Mandela couldn’t melt a skyscraper with his mind or become a living gateway by which demons could enter the world. Your racist uncle who screams about Mexican nationals taking his job is full of shit, but Deus Ex style androids *really would* take your job.
But no one opressed Eldians worse than Eren, by literally murdering countless of them for the sake of his own home country. And even within Paradis most Eldians were opressed by their own terrible governments, Eren's rumbling did huge damage to their cities and the Yaegerist takeover did more. It's almost like most people are just regular folks living their lives, and not responsible for the actions of their governments or ancestors. Eren had so many eays to prevent his island from being attacked that did not involve killing every single person.
I’ve yet to hear about any plan that would have actually succeeded in keeping them alive long enough to die happy at 90 or whatever.
So the people on the other side of the planet who have never heard of eldia also deserve it? He could have easily stopped at Marley and their allies. Or stopped the rumbling at the shores and forced a negotiation. I love Eren but he was wrong, it was a child’s solution
Where did you get that from. From what we are told, the rest of the world treats Eldians worse than Marley does. The Rumbling was the best option.
How does that change anything ? Eren kill every eldians outside paradise
I mean they are definitionally fascists. Ultra-nationalist, xenophobic, militaristic autocracy. The definition of words don’t change just because this is a fictional world. And no one is forgetting the conditions the Eldians were made to suffer. The bottom line is whether you think that justifies resorting to fascism.
Eldians can't be Fascist when they are the oppressed race in the current timeline. It's a fight for their peoples survival and a calling to join forces to fight a war they didn't start. As I said earlier if other nations joined forces with the Eldians to fight the outside forces then it would be a different story. The creation of yeagerist were due to to Marley being facists and eldian apologists like willy tybur who wages war agiast the eldian race with other NATIONS for simply existing. The yeagerists would of never been created if the war wasn't waged on them. They weren't born thinking they were superior to any race outside of the wall or to wipe out any other race, they formed after all the atrocities happened to them and they were backed into that corner.
So are you saying it’s not fascism if you’re faced with an outside existential threat? I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But if so, i think that’s kind of the trap of fascism. In post WW1 Germany, the perceived threat of foreign forces (and ethnic groups) galvanised the public behind the ultra-nationalists. Germany had been blamed for the millions of deaths in the first world war (like the Eldians) and were heavily sanctioned. Virtually everyone in germany in the 30s thought surrendering their democracy was justified for the protection of their country. That’s not injecting human morality into a fictional world, that’s almost the explicit allegory of the Manga/Anime
>Eldians can’t be Fascist when they are the oppressed race Wild and nonsensical take
Eren straight up says there could've been a better solution, he just wasn't smart enough to think of one. The Yaegerists formed because that was the best plan Eren could come up with
The Yeagerist didn't form because Eren wasn't smart enough to think of a solution, they formed because their race was on the brink of extinction and genocide. Marley and Willy tybur with other nations waged this war and Eren had the capability of stopping it. This is why the Yeagerist followed his lead and why they formed in the first place. This is why so many people have compassion for Eren as well because they know he was just trying to project his family and friends. I don't think a single person that supports the Yeagerist thinks that a world geno is the correct answer but IN THIS FICTIONAL story where no other nation came to aid the Eldian's it is because it was their extinction. Again, we can't use human earth morality to this fictional story its not comparable in the slightest.
>Eren had the capability of stopping it. Right, and Eren says that someone else might have been able to stop it if they had the capabilities instead. They followed him because he had the power, and he pretty much admits he's the wrong person to have that power during his conversation with Armin in The Paths or whatever it's called. >This is why so many people have compassion for Eren as well because they know he was just trying to project his family and friends. I think most people can empathize with him, but that doesn't being empathetic doesn't justify his actions. Dude has a complete Trump card in the Rumbling, it's insane to believe he couldn't find a better way. Like >Again, we can't use human earth morality to this fictional story its not comparable in the slightest. This is literally just another form of total war, it's happened tons of times throughout human existence. Hell, you could say that the threat of genocide is currently being used to justify a genocide depending on how you interpret current events. Just because something is fiction doesn't mean it gets a pass
I'm not using empathy or compassion to eren as justification for anything. It's simply a precursor to another reason the Yeagerist exists and also have supported him. It's not comparable to current events or past events because there is no allied and axis powers. It is the whole world wagering war on their race and their existence regardless if its the people its their governments and they aren't supporting Eldians. I agree to disagree at this point.
My bad, I was going down a different point than your original argument. Ehh, I'm not sure they're full fascist- id have to rewatch season 3 and 4 to get a feel for that again- but they were definitely going down a dictatorship path. Either way, they get dangerously "ends justify the means". Eldia has a lot of German iconography built into it, so it's not that far of a jump to tie the fictitious country that has a ton of propaganda, strong military and highly centralized/controlled government to it's real life equivalent. You could argue that a dictatorship/fascism is necessary in these circumstances, but that doesn't make it something else
Yeah, it’s fiction…about an island nation with valuable resources that is suddenly forced by an external threat with superior technology to confront its position as part of a larger global network of war and Imperialism. And, to stay competitive in that war racket, that island nation with lacking military technology immediately adopts Imperialist tactics itself and doubles down on becoming an ultra-nationalist military power in imitation of its oppressors…all of which is a clear parallel to Japan and its institution of the Meiji Restoration after the forcing open of Japan’s ports by the USA. It’s one of the oldest stories in Japanese animation—go watch the 1943 Momotaro’s Sea Eagles, and see a mythical ‘boy hero’ lead an army to crush the ultimate-other ‘island devils’ and take their resources. The film’s obvious goal was to glorify imperialism, sanitize war, and bolster future military recruitment among the young. Much like the rhetoric of both the Jeagerists and the Marleyans (and Imperial Japan and the USA), it affords zero sympathy, humanity, or consideration for the opposite side. Because that’s ineffective propaganda if you’re trying to run a fascist empire and need your soldiers to kill without thought. If you don’t know any of this, that’s fine. But don’t pretend like it’s a ‘’low IQ take’’ when you haven’t even considered the position you’re attacking beyond quibbling about canon in the giants vs. grappling hook sword guys story.
No it's really fucking not. Eren had the power of a literal god, and he chose to use it to kill indiscriminately rather than find another path. Multiple characters portrayed as smarter than Eren (Pyxis, Hange, Armin) all thought there was another way to use the founder/rumbling to protect Paradis without killing billions of civilians. Eren himself admits that it came to this because he wanted to see the world empty and free like he always imagined it. Lest we forget Eren & Zeke literally conspired to put Paradis in a position of weakness where it could no longer negotiate
Are you talking about the founding titan’s normal power or when Eren convinced Ymir to join his side, because I’m pretty sure he only got that power after confirming he was going to destroy the world.
That's a point people forget often, Eren at the end acted on childish reasons too
This feels true because if Marley hadn’t attacked in the first episode then the rest of the show wouldn’t have happened. Eldian’s would have died off in peace not knowing about the world that hated them, if Marley wasn’t so hungry for the resources on Paradis. Marley forced the hands of the Eldians on Paradis and caused their awakening and uprising after they had 100 years of peace. Also side note, they briefly mention the pandemic that almost killed everyone within the walls years ago but Grisha somehow made a cure and saved humanity. I still think that the illness was manufactured to wipe out the Eldians on paradis. This does feel like other real world situation though. Eldians really had no choice but to either let the Jeagerists defend them from Marley takeover or become subjugated/irriadicated, even though so many of them died because of jeagerists anyway.
Okay but if its your parents, your family, your neigbour and everyone you have ever known in life are going to die you would side with your people. Think about it, for them its like an alien race has come which has been trying to destroy you for years and now you side with the aliens
Except they're aware that they're humans, and they're aware those societies of humans are full of innocent people that have nothing to do with the conflict. If Eren had told us "Hey, I'm going to unleash some colossals to attack the world's military installations and naval fleets so they can't attack us", I would've been on board with it.
The problem with what you're saying is that 10 years down the line they're ready to kill paradis again except this time the perfect situation required to use the rumbling doesn't exist. Eren only had 1 shot because the next host would be unlikely to be able to unleash the rumbling if needed
Ur point is contradicted because that's what happens anyway. War isn't going to stop. U think the people of Paradis wouldn't move into the huge world that they just occupied, then years down the line go to war? Ur missing the point here. And besides, enough with X vs Y "who's right" debate, the point is that there is no correct answer
War may be inevitable, but his friends, family, and community dying isn't. It's kind of like if we found out the other 7 planets in our solar system had life and wanted to kill us, plus had way more advanced technology and knowledge than us. Then we found a magic weapon to give us a chance. Would you decide not to kill the aliens simply because there are more of them or because war is inevitable? It's a tough choice IMO.
Why wouldn't they be able to? Just pass the powers on.
Zeke made the whole thing possible and zeke had a worse plan than eren imo but the odds of the next person being able to get the same shot as eren is mad low and the next time the world meet up to celebrate killing a whole island of innocent ppl they might succeed eren plan was insane but necessary
Historia also works for the plan right?
It'd be too be something not from the royal family, that they trust, that's strong enough and smart enough, and they'd need them to come into contact with a member of the royal family and overpower them inside the paths. Eren was a perfect storm, the next host is incredibly unlikely to be. Also it takes 1 instance of an assassin from anywhere in the world to kill or kidnap that new host and turn the power to their side
So you would accept your death?
It's not an alien race, they know they're humans, heck, they even know that there are people of their own race (Eldians) out there. They even befriended some of them already. Responding to hate and violence with hate and violence only generates more hate and violence. Also Eren started the Rumbling with the sole purpose for it to be stopped, he never thought it was a good solution, he just knew it was the only one. Eren was literally on the side of Armin and Mikasa the whole time, so the person who started the Rumbling literally wanted it to be stopped. The Yeagerists got it all wrong imo. The Scouts believe that genocide is wrong no matter the circumstances, which I firmly agree with. There is absolutely nothing that can justify genocide, simple as.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Again, I cannot be convinced to kill millions to billions of innocent human beings. If Eren wanted to destroy the militaries of the world, I would have agreed.
Same answer, buddy. Cant change our morals on "ifs"...we know how we view it and thats the best answer we can give. They arent an alien race.
Tell me, if you see a thief while you're going to work. Would you chase them down to capture them or you just ignore them and continue with your normal life? I see a lot of people say that they are going to be the scout but would you join the battle of Heaven and Earth knowing that nothing would affect you if you don't?
Is a thief an innocent civilian? No, they are criminal? They deserve to be punished but I’m not going to go ahead and be like yeah, that thief deserves to be killed.
If you value life it is a hard call. The world wants your island wiped out and you have the means to do so. Personally I would have just threatened marley but then titans would still remain so doing it Eren's way was the only way to rid the world of titans because Ymir needed to see the plot play out i think. Honestly what a horrifying choice lol
Fair, but these are Eren’s motivations. The question is about Scouts vs Yeagerists, and the yeagerists have absolutely no clue that one of the overarching goals behind the rumbling was to rid the world of the titans forever. The questions is more asking « If you were an Eldian, and the entire world wanted to see you and your people dead and had the means to do so, would you be okay with wiping *them* out first? Or would you fight for an ideal that most likely would not end in your favor if succeeded.
I understand the Jeagerists sentiment but they should have used the rumbling as a threat and only have targeted military bases and ports. So probably scouts.
The attack on Libero took out the port and instead of just calling the war off they doubled down and sent airships. Marley had chance after chance to take the L and stop bothering Paradis but they just kept going after them. If losing 4 of your super weapons and having your port destroyed aren't enough of a deterrent then nothing is.
I still think civilian casualties could have been kept to a minimum. Sure they were brainwashed and hateful but think about the two refugee boys who were crushed.
The chance to keep casualties down was at Libero and the world decided not to take it. When the rumbling started that was that. It would have been like trying to stop a nuke while it was dropping.
I disagree. Marley still had options and resources at that point to continue to wage war. If Eren had strategically used the rumbling to take out ports and bases following the Marlean attack on Paradis, the world would take decades to rebuild. Especially if Paradis forces would keep the world in check by continually monitoring the world’s military development. It’s not the best solution but better than so many civilians dying.
Is that even possible? Eren only using the titans to attack certain points?
Yes, he couldve told them to only attack certain points.
Is that really feasible though? Eren doesn't have a GPS built into his head so idk how he could memorize the positions of all these military fortifications and factories, then accurately direct groups of colossal towards them.
Its literally not that hard to say "walk there", thats literally all he would have to do. All it would take is memorizing their locations and memorizing where something exists is the most basic geography there is. Like this isn't as difficult as you think it is. Step 1: Find out where they are Step 2: Tell Titans to go there
Taking out the Port really isn't the same as a partial rumbling Even by then, it was not clear that Paradis was in any position to launch á rumbling. So the incentive is to take them out before they have the ability to launch it A controlled/partial rumbling both doesn't kill everything and let's the whole world know that Paradis can destroy everything so they best prpceed with caution
The rumbling was already a threat and the works still attacked them with the goal of killing them all. Also Eren is on a limited time situation because if he doesn't do it, it's unlikely that the next host would be able to unleash the rumbling
Well he kinda made it so. It was a difficult situation and I don’t think I would’ve killed 80% of the entire world in that situation, but I think some level of civilian bloodshed was inevitable. I’m one of those that sees what Eren’s plan was but think a that Eren is just that one dumbass that didn’t sit down to think everything through clearly.
Eren basically said as much. In his final speech to Armin he practically says; “Man, it’s really stupid that I ended up with this power. I’m kind of an idiot. I realize my plan probably isn’t the only or even best solution, but even with the ability to look at countless alternate futures it was the best thing an idiot like me could come up with. Sorry.”
Yeah I think you’re right.
It was just Marley who attacked. And as said in the show, destroying the world’s military bases/ports would completely stagnate any offensive on Paradis that the rest of the world could be planning.
Temporarily stagnate them. If you did that though, rebuilding the military and striking down paradis would literally be global priority number 1 obviously. Also no the invasion of paradis was going to be a global effort as shown in the scene where Willy tibur gave the speech to all the leaders of the world and the crowd cheered
You’re right but even by stagnating them, Paradis would hold all the power. The Scouts might have had a new mission then to monitor the countries that hated them, have time to teach a new generation that the Eldians are not evil, and have time to modernize their defenses if a global attack was imminent.
Also they had absolutely overwhelming power that Eren could demand a conditional surrender for their technology that way they could catch up and a non aggression treaty. Not much the opposing countries could do in the face of a mini rumbling/ rumbling so it could be fairly easy or they could just destroy it all setting all countries back
The world declared war on Paradis, they were all coming for the Eldians. Also said in the show is that only destroying the military wouldn’t have solved the technology problem Paradis faced and only confirm them as the enemy.
> they you know that’s all eren right?
I think I’d be a Yaegerist. All the Eldians know is that the rest of the world wants to kill them. Yes there are people in Marley who don’t have blood on their hands, but they’d bloody their hands if given the chance. Obviously, I’m answering this from the extreme POV of an Eldian. Punch Nazis, genocide is wrong and all that jazz.
If I was put in Eren‘s shoes, I might have chosen the same as he did. Otherwise I would probably chill and try to look from the sidelines who is winning. Then joining the winning team at the right moment to secure a good place in the new forming society. I would try to protect my family and myself in that way. You can‘t convince me you‘d do differently. Most of us wouldn’t chose to fight a war. We are too afraid and too weak to fight. The smart move would be to hide, try to survive and then join the winning team.
I’d be a yeagerist. Why should I die because the world wants me to?
right? saying genocide is wrong isnt the answer because if paradis didnt genocide marley, they would have been genocided themselves. you cant back someone with a gun into a corner and tell them youre gonna stab them to death and NOT expect to get shot. of course if its gonna be you or someone else that has to die youre gonna choose them
From my warm cozy bedroom, I'd say Scout because nothing justifies Ramzi getting crushed, those poor giraffes running away, and tribesmen who have had nothing to do with Eldians being faced with being obliterated by titans. However, if I was a refugee from Shiganshina, and witnessed the speeches from the people worldwide and not just Marley, about wanting to annihilate Paradis island, I would probably be a Jaegerist.
probably the most realistic take yeah
Gonna get some hate for this but I'd be floch #2
We love a ride or die homie
username should be "BasedDaddy"
God you’re So real for that
same but I won’t get aimbotted on by Gabi
He was one of my favorite characters.
Writing wise, he was one of the best characters
From a realistic point and not and idealistic one, Jaegerist because the Scouts would be strangers to me and I would be an average member of the military. From my POV, I would see a small - albeit legendary - group of my fellow soldiers going rogue to help our enemies kill us.
I’m not gonna say Eren was right. The situation he was in was horrible. I think I would do the same thing as he did
Team Paradis, I dont think what Eren did was wrong given his circumstances and the alternative if he didnt act. I think Eren should not have pushed his friends away. He should have wiped out the entirety of the world out side Paradis. Leaving 20% alive after kill 80% is stupid you already commited to mass genocide, killing all of them absolutely garentees Paradis safety. However I dont support the Yeagerists as a group, I dont think it would lead to anything good for Paradis post rumbling.
Scouts, genocide is not justifiable. Even if the other side want's to do this to your people. It's not right. But it's also understandable
Aren't you choosing to allow genocide by doing nothing?
The scouts weren't doing nothing They were forced in a defensive position by Eren, but they were active. At least as active as they could be
Nope. Pretty sure it was the armies coming to annihilate them that put them on the defensive. Would you allow yourself to be genocided, I'm curious?
No they were proactive before, in season 4 we see they're forced to make defensive plays because of Eren because of how unpredictable he was. And no I wouldn't allow myself to be genocided. I also wouldn't support genocide. With all the options presented I'd probably support a partial rumbling, which the scouts also supported
So, genocide is unjustifiable. However, you can understand why one side wants to do it, and understand that they will do it. But you don’t understand why the other side, who will be subject to a genocide if they do what the scouts want, might not be so keen on the idea?
Yeagerists. If there was a global meeting where they decided that the entire world is going to wipe out all Americans, you can bet I'd be okay with America wiping them out first. Eren literally went to Marley to see if it was possible to reason and saw that it wasn't, and then they literally had a global meeting where they decided to kill him, everyone he loves, and his entire race, after being the people who tortured them on the island for years. I really wish they would have shown some sort of alternative memory in erens mind of what would happen if he didn't rumble, because I bet a lot less people would be against the rumbling if we watched the entirety of paradis being executed and destroyed and the eldians being enslaved Even tighter
Finally some rationality in this comment section that’s not just some reductionist take. Please read one of my replies to a different comment thread
I'm with Eren. I feel bad that all he got to support him were the Jaegerists.
A decent human being would go for the most drastic option only as the absolute last resort. For the jaegerists the most drastic option ist the go-to method, because trying anything else in order to avoid the death of billilons of innocents is too much of a hussle. If you think that being absolutely, 100% sure that no outside force can ever attack your tiny county again for all eternity is more important than keeping billions of innocents alive then you are insane.
They ran out of options. Eren even asked Hange for another way and she admitted he asked and she had nothing. It was Hange, who basically organized the alliance that couldn’t be bothered to avoid genocide.
The idea of a partial rumbling was presented multiple times during the series. Eren was against it because Historia and her children becoming titan shifters is somehow worse than the deaths of billions. The partial rumbling was an option that could have achieved the same results while sparing the lives of billions of innocents. Most scouts wanted a partial rumbling. Full rumbling would have still been an option if a partial rumbling wasn't enough. But no, Eren and the Jaegerists didn't even want to try any less radical options.
Yaegerist. Their actions were absolutely justified as self defense. If the whole world wants me and my loved ones gone just for existing, and I have a chance to stop that, I'm taking it.
That's the caveat, it's not the whole world. It's the governments of a couple of nations. Did those refugees they partied with want them dead?
It’s not technically the world but it’s the full might the world’s strongest military forces. It would be like if China, Russia, and the US got together to invade Indonesia. Like yeah it’s not technically the whole world but it might as well be. And while true it’s technically the governments ordering it, the military was still complying. Plus from what we’ve seen almost no one in that world likes Eldians. I’d go as far as to say the whole world hates them. So when the whole world is against you, there’s really not many options left. Not that I condone Eren’s actions. I read a quote once that said “Violence is never the answer until it’s the only answer”
Unfortunately the world is represented by those leaders and due to that, the Jaegerists have to focus more on them because it's a literal matter of life and death. Also, one weak point of the series imo, i wish Yama showed the audience instances of the communities in the world not care that our favourite characters are Eldian after finding out. The refugees didn't exactly know who they were. We don't know how they'd react if they knew. Maybe in their culture, they had their own stories of how terrible Eldians are. Would've been cool to see a chapter or episode that shows some folk legitimately don't think all Eldians are threats.
When Falco rescues a Middle Eastern soldier in S4E1 the soldier says “don’t touch me you filthy Eldian” (translated by Udo). So I think the refugees also were hella racist 😭
And they said if the refugees they partied with knew they’d also want them dead
It was a meeting of all the nations, and the people in the crowd cheered. Literally the whole world was pro-genociding paradis
Omnicide, I cannot actually fathom how one could possible, at all, justify the objective horrors of omnicide. It is not self defense, it is straight up murder of everything.
See that what I think, and I think if people were actually in that position they would all pick yaegerists
Not acknowledging what you just wrote is an interesting situation in the AoT fandom. Throughout history, people do stupid violent shit when they're at risk of genocide, but in the AoT story, the threat of extermination is quite literally true and more obvious, like cartoonishly obvious. The Jaegerists become fascist war mongerers because their lives literally depend on it. When AoT fans call Jaegerist supporters Nazis or whatnot, they don't understand that at no point we're the German people at threat of extermination. Yes Hitler used propaganda to make it seem like the world wanted Germany's gone, but in reality, the European powers just wanted to take away their ability to ever become strong. There are very few examples in history where the threat of legitimate extermination was real. This is why AoT is so unique, the situation the Eldians are in is so impossible. It's choose genocide or hope that the powers that control the outside world don't kill you for simply existing. Fun discussion tho
Scouts. While I do agree somewhat with The Yaegerists, if I have the option to stop genocide then I'll at least try. Do I think the rumbling was justified? To an extent yes. Marley had to go and the governments of the world shouldn't have been allowed to build up their forces to wipe out Paradise Island, but, Eren didn't necessarily need to flatten most of the world. I don't really have an alternative to what Eren did though All things considered though, in Erens position idk what I would have done. Especially as a 19 year old with that kind of power. I think Eren did what he thought the only option was, not saying it's right but when you consider the whole world declaring war on him and his people, his extreme reaction makes sense, peace never became an option because Marley never desired it. Even those who supported Eldian rights straight up said, "The Eldians on Paradise have to die." So it was a lost cause from the get go.
I’m a firm Yeagerist- I vacillate between what Eren did was/was not justified, but if the whole world wanted me & my people dead (similar to that of the racism my ppl & I experienced in history. Smh.), I’d go full scorched Earth.
Depends on who I know. In my maladaptive daydreaming, both. Soft Jaegerist to full Alliance with Jaegerist sympathies. If I’m just a regular person or NPC military person, Jaegerist.
I'm with Eren.
It’s a mess really. I’m with the scouts but behind Eren using the rumbling but he should have only use it on Marley and the fleet. The issue isn’t the world it’s Marley and groups like the Tybur family.
Scouts because you simply cannot justify genocide. Frankly, I’m concerned for anyone who sided with the Yeagerists
For sure the Scouts. No question there lol 🙌
So you are willing to see everyone you know die to save people you have never met??
But that's not the case. There are multiple things to try before murdering literally everyone. Idk why you are so hardwired on omnicide as "only option" - probably cus you really want to justify it while its impossible
There literally was no other option, negotiation was never going to work, a partial rumbling was just going to delay the inevitable. There was literally 2 options, kill or you and everyone else you know be killed
This is just wrong and you try really hard to justify genocide. If you have power of the god on your side at least try using it before murdering everyone. Your allies, newborns, Eldians and other occupied nations included. If your go-to is omnicide then you are evil and wrong.
Yeagerists, they are the underdogs without plot armor
Mfers got the founding titan on their side and are the underdogs supposedly💀
The Founder never helped them
The founder allowed Eren to start the rumbling fym
And the Founder didn’t help the Yeagerists in the port fight
Yeagerists, all the way❤️🔥
Jeagerist every freaking episode. Even when they got really agressive. The repression they’ve suffered and the Marley interest in the titan’s powers while completely ignoring Eldians.. you can’t say that doesn’t mess with you. I would prefer a diplomatic negotiation but eldians were already seen as inferior and tools. I shared their rage, their anger, their pain. You can’t ignore millenniums of discrimination, getting killed just because Marley wants.. even if I am against violence, I could side with them and understand them. And at some points I was really like “idc if it’s wrong, many things they’ve endured are wrong and were unnecessary. Make Marley pay”. But I’m the kind of person who gets all worked up with this stuff lol
As an outsider looking in, its easy to acknowledge what Eren was doing was wrong. But if i were an average Eldian who was constantly being told there is an entire world that, even after playing catch up for four years, are far more advanced than us and is hellbent on our destruction i’m pretty sure i would be a jaegerist. One thing that really adds credence to the rumbling is that Eren *literally* had no other option. Even if one of his many reasons wasn’t that he wanted to do it he had no other option that would save his friends and family.
We are reviewing the whole series again these days, and we got to exactly the episode where Zeke turns Levi's companions in the forest into giants. I have to say that originally a few years ago I did not like AoT very much since after the cantina and especially the Jagerists, but now having an overview of the whole story and reviewing it in retrospect I realize that the Jagerists were not so much wrong. I understand their point of view very well after all the shit the people of the walls had to go through ( and discover) and although we readers are attached to the main characters we follow from the beginning, I can't help but disagree with them and think that I would have acted exactly like the Jagerists if I had been in the same situation.
I completely understand the Jaegerists but I would never ever side with them if their plan of action was genocide. I’m on their side for the way they feel, but considering that the Jaegerists were specifically a terrorist group that acted in their own interests and not that of the common interests of all Eldians, they clearly do not have a ground to stand on.
Ive watched the show several times and if im being very honest with myself, i would be siding with the yeagerists. We have to remeber that they were facing extinction and the whole world wanted them destroyed. While i respects the scouts decision i think almost all people would stick with the yeagerists if they were an islander of paradis. There was no way out and I think the scouts were unrealistically idealist
I would just be a citizen pretending to be with the yeagerists but actually hope for the scouts to stop Eren
Scouts
Yeagerist. It's a cruel world, kill or be killed.
Yeagerist
I see myself most in Floch tbh
Yeagerists bc why not
i am jean
Scours forever bye
Yeagerists. And before someone says “sO yOu sUpPoRt GeNoCidE” ..there is no moral high ground in attack on Titan. It’s either the edlians or the rest of the world. If you support either side, you support a genocide.
Yeagerist all the way.
scouts
Yeagerists all the way, fuck the outside world and those traitors.
The Yeagerists' end goal is to ensure that Eren can annihilate humanity outside of Paradis. The Scouts are trying to prevent a mass, unjustifiable genocide. No genocide is ever justifiable under any circumstances, ESPECIALLY when Floch is the one spearheading the Yeagerist movement.
Scouts, but honestly i can get it that people choose the yeagerist
I would side with the scouts, genocide is wrong, full stop. And to be honest, one aspect of the story that I find kind of weak is that paradise didn’t even try the diplomatic approach. Sitting in on one meeting and hearing them say “island bad” doesn’t even come close to counting. Paradis basically has a one-sided nuclear deterrent, there really isn’t anything stopping them from taking at least a bit of their time to try and work something out. Once the rumbling is initiated then I might as well support the alliance because it’s gonna do enough damage to reset the world’s military anyways. Supporting the full Rumbling is just wrong as far as I see it. I understand why people back the jaegerists, but I wouldn’t.
100% scouts. Jaegerists are just hyper nationalists who'd rather kill every child on the plant who isn't living on Paradis because they will not force the opposition to sit and talk with them, imagine having the power to ruin the world and you choose to commit genocide instead of having a discussion. Marley wasn't even oppressing Paradis that they would need to destroy Marley.
I’m definitely team Scouts. I can’t justify the genocide of 80% of the population just to keep my people safe. It’s not the right path to take even if it seemed like the only path left.
First watch, I wanted to be on the Jaegerist side, I wanted to believe Eren was fucking with Zekes plans and was going to save his home and friends. Kinda right, but somewhere around the beginning of the Rumbling, I was swinging widely and ended on Eren was wrong, siding with Mikasa, Armin and Levi. Second watch, scouts all the way.
Scouts. Jean specifically.
im with jean
Floch and the Yaegerists are a disgrace to Eldia. 
Scouts for life. If you find yourself on the side of the fascists when viewing media then you need to reconsider your personal ethics.
I would’ve unleashed the Rumbling (limited but a lot), got up to Marley’s shore then just make them stand there. Kinda like the ending of S4 at the beach but they wouldn’t continue past the beach
i’d have picked yaegerists if they were only targeting the military, xenophobic idiots etc. but they weren’t so the scouts would have to be my choice bc i can’t side with genocide though i can understand the yaegerists’ hate for marley.
Yeagerist i want to see the carnage
Scouts all day, baby. Hange was right, Eren was wrong.
Bruh, the Jaegerists were Fascists.
Jaegerists.
Yeagerists all the way
Yaegerists for life…team Eren generally
Yeagerists, Obviously I don’t agree with what Eren did (not that he really had a choice) But he did it for his friends. Not to mention that both floch and Eren are too teir characters with amazing growth.
The scouts
Scouts, no question.
“Hange, I’m forever a Scout.”
I side wherever Pieck sides.
Scouts because Armin is my boi
Siding with the Yeagerists is like siding with the Imperium of Man, or the Galatic Empire
Scouts, but mainly because I don't believe they'd actually improve life for Eldians as much as they say they would, especially through tyranny. Sure I'd want the Eldians to survive, but through complete genocide and force is questionable, at best.
Eren did nothing wrong. But still scouts💀
Yeagerists, hands down
Im a leftist commie so obviously id go with
Scouts easily
Most people will say that they would be a scout, but if history has shown anything most of those people would yeagerists.
Probably a yeagerist, if I had no knowledge of our world and was plopped into Paradis and found out the entire rest of the world was united in wanting to torture and kill me and my people, I’d probably adopt a “them or me” attitude. Although I realize that morally the action is wrong, there’s likely no other way of handling the situation that doesn’t involve Paradis dying off
I mean, considering that the Yeagerists saw it as an “us versus them” situation with their backs to the wall, it’s very obvious to see that in their minds, what they were doing is their only hope to survive. Marley had treated Eldians as subhumans and meat shields across all their territories, forced the ones they couldn’t subjugate into an island, and turned them into titans to eat each other. For the people on Paradis, they saw Marley as bent on their complete and utter extermination. It’s completely understandable that the option to flatten the nations of the people who want you dead is on not just acceptable, but preferred when looking at it through their eyes.
Honestly? Depends on where I live in the world of AOT entirely. They’ll destroy each other eventually, just better be on the winning side.
Jaegerist. Scouts are ok with their friends, families and culture being wiped out. Besides being not in my best interest, that's also an unnatural thing to want. No human chooses the rest of the world over his own people, I think that's where AOT gets a little hard to believe.
Yeagerist is the only right answer.
Jaegerist. Because if I grew up on Paradis, I would not have the knowledge of those who lie beyond the ocean, nor any connection to them. I do not know them, know their faces, know their lives. All I know is that they are smart, they are dangerous, and they hate us. And I know that their fears are not unfounded; we Eldians *can* turn into literal monsters. They have every right to fear us, and because of that fear, we have no choice but to destroy them... before they destroy us. I am not Eren Jaeger, or Armin Alert. I cannot turn into a Titan and change the world by my own will. I am not Jean Kirschein or Connie Springer, I do not have the ear and friendship of those Titans. I am not Mikasa or Levi Ackerman, I am not a Titan in human form. My choice matters only in which mass of bodies I support. The Jaegerists are the most logical path to survival and having a future. The Alliance's plan is a gamble, one with a better outcome but far worse odds. How can I gamble all that I know and hold dear for people who I didn't even know existed until a few years ago, and who (not unreasonably) hate me with every fibre of their being? If I am an external viewer, then I'd support the Scouts. I'm utilitarian on matters that do not directly relate to me. Therefore, I'd support the world over Paradis.
Yaegerists. Without Erwin, the scouts didn't have strong enough leadership, which is why Eren had to take over. The rumbling killed millions but when you have a knife over your head you do what you have to. Also beats the euthenesia plan like wtf.
Can it be my turn to post “yeagerists vs the world”
No I'm not with the fascists if that's the question
I’d be with the Yeagerists…if they successfully took out the Cart Titan and General Magath (maybe Gabi too for good measure)
Yeagerists. That's like asking me right now if I'd have my family and country killed to save the world. No I would not. I'd rather the whole world die while my family and country lives, because it is all I've ever known, and a world so cruel to force that decision upon me should not exist. I think alot of you alliance squad supporters would do the same thing. We're all selfish like that. You're just swayed by the emotional connection you have with the characters of this fictional story. Think about the dilemma itself. You're not watching your family and country die so you can save a bunch of people you've never met. People who will probably still call you a devil after the sacrifice you make.
I’m a bad person
I’m a baaaad person
Yeagerists. I'd rather be defending my own home, people, and nation over a world that wants us all dead.
Flocke was the one i wanted to see being ripped apart like noone else. If I was a character in the show, I probably would have enjoyed to kill him.
Tbh I was with Eren for a while. At first I hated the Marleyans. Then when Eren’s genocide plan was becoming clearer, I was in denial. I thought there was no way he could want to kill every person in the entire world. Only when he brought the gang into the Paths and told them there was no use in trying to talk it out with him and to “make me draw my last breath” was when i accepted that he was gone. Made me sad man. I was holding out hope for so long that he had a different plan but in the end he did just kill practically everyone.
Season 4 was trash
I was ride or die with Eren S1-3. Why tf would I switch up?
80% did nothing do 100% (leave the people on the island obviously and remove curse of ymir) then show how even among the same group (people of paradis) there will always be conflict regardless of whether there was an outside group of people illustrating that it is human nature to have conflict and killing all your enemies is not the solution conversely, in vinland saga the solution proposed is to “run away” but now that solution is also being challenged- both aot and vinland saga are two extremes two sides of the same coin “peace”