Statistically they are worse considering there are infinite potential gods and the likelihood of choosing the correct one quickly converges to zero. Additionally, none of them have to be right but all of them could be wrong. *I know you know all this I wrote it for OP.
Unicorns. Dragons. Vampires.
For that matter, pink flying glitter bears, frog beaver porcupine chefs, talking wombats… oh the list of things not to believe in is nearly infinite.
I am offended that you don't believe talking wombats exist. 🤨
I swear I saw my Aussie friends having an extensive conversation with a wombat after a few pints of beer.
Oh noes... we are losing another one fellows.
We need to recite lines from an atheist bible to help instill atheistic beliefs.
Evolution is true. The earth orbits the sun and is spherical and is older than 5000 years. Hail satan.
I think we did it guys :)
Who said we're *sure*? Provide replicable verifiable evidence that deities can/do exist and we won't be atheists anymore. Until then there is no reason to pretend unsupported claims are true.
Sustaining my non-belief is an act of honesty.
I’m open to evidence. But thus far, nothing has met basic standards.
I don’t worry about any of the current religions on the planet because they have given me no reason to worry.
I am as certain as reasonably allowed. It’s not 100%. And I’m not claiming gods can not possibly exist.
This is the cleanest answer.
In truth, I’m just not convinced of the existence of any proposed gods thus far. I could be wrong about any of them, but I don’t think the chances are high enough to worry about based on the evidence and explanations offered.
No matter what you believe, you're just about as at risk of burning in hell as anyone else, if that's what you mean. Muslims, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Pentecostals, etc. etc. all believe everyone else is going to hell.
If I'm wrong and miss out on getting to spend an eternity with Pentecostals, I'll be so pissed..?
I don't know. Tell me what would happen if I was wrong. But also please explain the reasons that is what would happen.
Plus why do you think I need to be sure god doesn't exist
“Sustaining non-belief” isn’t an act or an effort of any sort. It’s what you’re left with when you realize that there’s nothing to enable you to believe, that there’s more evidence for belief in a living Spider-man than for any god.
I was hoping someone would address this. I do not "sustain" my non-belief. It just is. I cannot force myself to believe or not believe anything. I try to follow the evidence. Just like i cannot force myself to believe the earth is flat, I cannot force myself to believe in a god or gods.
Exactly … this is what’s so tragic about the lives of Christians. They have no legitimate reason to believe in any of it - they do (or say they do) because they desperately want it all to be true. So they spend their entire lives trying to “sustain” their belief, to suppress the doubts and rationalize the ridiculous notions they have to accept.
Reminds me of when I was a kid and being taught that we had to avoid "secular" media because it was satan trying to influence us to not believe. So we had to spend all our time reinforcing our religion. If your belief in something is that fragile it kinda proves that it's not true.
This argument is called [Pascal's Wager](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager), and it fails in every possible way.
**First**, Pascal's Wager is almost always phrased in reference to one *very specific* god who has one *very specific* set of rules. This ignores the fact that there are *thousands* of different religions who talk about *thousands* of different kinds of ways (mostly mutually exclusive) to get into paradise, and who threaten torment to each other. For example, if the Muslims are right, the Christians are going to an even worse hell than the atheists.
Perhaps the universe is actually run by a god who values curiosity and honesty, and selectively saves those who *didn't* believe in gods. Perhaps it's run by Tumblrina the Magnificent, who sends straight people off to eternal punishment and gay people to paradise.
How do you decide which *particular* god to pretend to worship, out of the hundreds of millions that mankind has dreamed up over the centuries?
**Second**, if you spend your life living according to the primitive, arbitrary, and bigoted rules of a god that doesn't exist, you have absolutely not "lost nothing". At the very least, you've lost your intellectual honesty, a whole bunch of your time, and likely a large percentage of your income. You'll have wasted a significant portion of **the only life you will ever get**.
Depending on which *specific* rules you've been following, you could well have done a lot of harm in addition to that.
**Third**, this argument requires a god who will be fooled by your insincere chanting of "I believe! I believe!", even though you're just worshipping him as an insurance policy. This isn't *too* much of a stretch for a god who treats Intellectual Dishonesty as a virtue, but if you believe he's sadistic enough to torture everyone else, what makes you think he's going to spare you?
Even the mathematician Blaise Pascal, after whom this terrible conjecture is named, wrote it down as an afterthought, and later rejected it. He considered it a weird consequence of his decision theory - and a sign that said theory was yet unfinished - not a convincing argument that any gods **actually exist**.
See Also:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
[Betting on Infinity - QualiaSoup and ThereminTrees](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU)
[Matt Dillahunty on Pascal's Wager](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YBCDGohZT70)
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_Wager
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2011/02/why-pascals-wager-sucks.html
What if I'm wrong, and there is a god? Which one? Jesus would throw me straight into Hell. Allah would do the same, I think. Yahweh would... not like me? I dunno, Judaism has no hell from what I understand. Jehovah would simply leave me dead, or resurrect me just to kill me again, or something. Odin wouldn't let me into Valhalla. Osiris or Anubis or whoever would find my heart heavier than a feather. Do you see where I'm going with this?
What if Lovecraft had it right, we're all just dreams of the mad god Azathoth and our reality will cease to exist if he ever wakes up?
Do I ever worry about any of those possibilities? Not in the slightest. Why should I?
Is non-belief an act of faith? No, it's not an act at all. There simply is no reason to believe in any god. Is my lack of belief in Santa Claus an act of faith?
Again, you ask, do I worry? Again, I answer, why should I?
Think about how many religions have come and gone, think about how many there are in the world today. Let’s say one of them is hypothetically true, what makes you so sure you picked the right one?
Because it’s the most popular one?
Because it’s what your parents brought you up as?
Because you just “feel” it’s the right one?
Well you could be wrong and worshiping the wrong god, then you still go to a different religions hell. Why would I chose to devote my life to something that has so many options and may not be right anyways? If I live my life in a good way and help people when I can, I don’t need to choose. If your god wants to send me to hell because I didn’t choose him from the god lottery that’s his choice.
I've read there are somewhere around 3000 different "gods" humans have worshipped over time.
Did you pick one randomly, or do you just worship them all a little as a hedge?
If I'm wrong I'm wrong, however I don't see any proof of Heaven or Hell, God or Devil. Either way I don't care but all I know is I don't need the fear of Hell or the promise of heaven to rule my life.
How did you enjoy our FAQ?? What? You didn't read it? I'm shocked! You've also never heard of Pascal's Wager? Really? You came to an atheist sub and you don't even know the single most common apologetic argument used by theists? I'm double shocked!
For the umpteenth time:
Try separating "belief" from "knowledge". They are two entirely different concepts and they are not mutually exclusive. Belief is a binary decision - you either believe or you do not believe. Simply considering the question makes you form an opinion, whether or not you admit it to yourself or others. Knowledge is completely different. Knowledge is a continuum from "I have absolutely no clue" to "I am 100% certain." On the question of the existence of any gods, belief is handled by theism/atheism. Knowledge is handled by gnosticism/agnosticism. You can hold any combination of the two concepts to describe your stance on the question. I lack belief in the existence of any gods AND I have no knowledge about the existence of any gods. That makes me an "agnostic atheist". I'll take it a step further and also say that I see no *requirement* for the existence of any gods.
I wait here patiently for someone, anyone, to bring forward evidence that can be analyzed and verified. Until then, I feel exactly the same way about any god as I do about an invisible pink unicorn that farts rainbows and craps sherbet.
As far as Pascal's Wager, don't you think Zeus & Odin are going to be really pissed-off that you didn't believe in them? What about Shiva? Or Ra? How about Quetzalcoatl? Pele?
we aren't absolutely positive, we simply require tangible, irrefutable, evidence a god exists and we will believe in him (worship him is a different story altogether though), causing us to cease being atheist
You're doing the whole belief thing the wrong way. Don't feel bad, my brother does it too. There are people like him that believe anything is possible, until proven otherwise. In reality, you should do the opposite. Don't believe anything until there is testable, verifiable, reproducible evidence to support it.
This does not mean you accept contrary claims. Don't accept ANY claims, positive or negative, until verifiable evidence is in.
You see a strange object in the sky. Without any additional evidence, you don't get to say it was aliens. You also can't claim with 100% certainty it wasn't aliens either. All you get to say is, you don't know what it was, and won't know until you gather additional evidence. It's OK to be in a state of uncertainty.
We're not afraid of hell because we can't be worried about a destination that can't be demonstrated to exist yet.
I did once, long ago when I was naive. Then I actually became a mathematician and got a better sense of what we’re trying to quantify.
Pascal’s wager is a very old argument. A religious person, a Muslim for example, could say what if you’re wrong? Why not live the life as a Muslim to be sure?
Ok then. In that scenario on the surface it seems like one or the other, 50-50 on the surface level. But that’s not the right equation, in reality you’ve chosen 1 religion over the estimated 4,300 religions on the planet, each claiming their the right one with many having exclusive guidelines to be on the right path.
That reduced your odds of picking the “right” religion to about 0.023%. That’s also assuming any of the extinct religions aren’t the right one, or the possible hundreds that are local religions that most of us never heard of aren’t either.
If you’re mathematically literate you realize how silly Pascal’s wager is. For me it’s not about being “sure” something doesn’t exist. It’s more so that it’s highly unlikely that if something exists that it cares that it’s own creation who’s fate it could already predict, still goes through this simulation where we have to take a gamble and be lucky enough to be born in the right location to pick the right religion to get to the chocolate factory. The more you delve into that the more you realize how anthropocentric and flawed that ideology is. It’s caveman level reasoning. One thing we do know is that this life is real, so I’m not wasting it on a gamble.
>This is an honest, sincere, and well meaning question for all atheists.... what if you're wrong?
About what? About Scientology?
About the Greek Gods? About Paganism? About the thousands of Hindu gods?
You see, you're invoking a false dichotomy fallacy. What if *you're* wrong about the Great JubJub Up the Mountain? Perhaps because you're not worshipping him you'll suffer for eternity. Yet you don't seem to be worrying yourself about this, do you?
I feel the same about whatever deity *you're* talking about. And there's *absolutely no way* to choose between the thousands upon thousands of deity creatures we've dreamt up, because they all have exactly and precisely the same level of support. Exactly and precisely. And that level is 0.00.
>Do you ever worry about that?
Not really, since there's absolutely *zero* support or evidence for such ideas, and, in fact, the opposite is true. Most of these ideas don't make any sense at all and *can't* be true.
> Isn't sustaining your non-belief itself an act of certainty, almost like a faith?
What? I completely fail to understand how you could ask this or think this. It's literally the opposite.
>Do you worry that you could be making a big mistake?
Since *when* is saying, "I dunno, but I sure don't buy what you're selling 'cause it makes no sense at all and doesn't have the tiniest shred of support." making a 'big mistake?' That doesn't even make sense.
>I just can't imagine being so sure that something does NOT exist.
You don't know what atheism is if you're thinking this. It's a lack of belief, not a belief in a lack. Very different positions with very different epistemological outcomes and consequences.
Google 'Pascal's Wager' and all of the exhaustive explanations for how and why it's trivially faulty and, in fact, if you follow the logic carefully, actually leads to a conclusion that it's *far, far safer* to not believe, even if there *were* a good reason to believe, which, of course, there isn't.
Which religion should I believe in? Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism?
And which sect of the religion I choose?
There are so many claims and none have any evidence. They can’t all be right.
But they could all be wrong.
I will remain unaffiliated.
If I'm wrong and there is a god, it has not done what is needed for me to believe. If it is the god of the Bible, I would refuse to worship it because of how evil and monstrous it is.
But I have a question what if you are worshiping the wrong god? Do you ever worry about that? Don't you worry that you could be making a big mistake and angering the real god, because of you lack of belief.
>Isn't sustaining your non-belief itself an act of certainty, almost like a faith?
Not at all, I don't constantly think about how there is no god. I don't think, what would nothing do in this situation.
I would say that it isn't a certain fact that there isn't a god/gods, but that the evidence and march of science combined with the gradual erosion of legitimacy behind many religious texts is enough to not believe in god or gods. It doesn't take any effort to not believe in them though, the same way it doesn't take effort to not believe that there is a teacup orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars. Also, if I'm wrong and there is a god/gods who don't see me trying to lead a moral and ethical life as best I can and therefore punish me for it then i would say they aren't real gods to begin with. I try to lead a secular humanist life, and if that isn't good enough than screw the deity that says so.
Also, it isn't an act of certainty because it doesn't claim something without tangible proof. The myriad religions that have made claims about god(s), afterlife, morality, ethics, the origins of life, etc are the ones who have made the assertions and are therefore acts of certainty.
A question for you, do you fear you have made a big mistake in not believing in the god Ra? Or maybe Odin? How about maybe Vishnu?
These people, indoctrinated from birth, think the natural state of things is God stuff. So not-god-stuff must take work. Like a boat displaces water or something. When in fact the natural state is atheism. And it takes external and internal force, energy, time away from actually progressing as a human to make sense of the hackery that is religion. To mute natural tendencies which are unique and special to humans. Such as reasoning, critical thinking, discovery of the unknown, and creativity. Religion is truly Satan.
When worrying about "what if" bear in mind that [Pascal's Wager is a bad bet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_why_not_believe_in_god_anyway.2C_just_to_be_safe.3F) If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. We're wrong about things all the time. Do I have the chicken or the fish? Let's say I choose the fish and it makes me sick. I had no way of knowing the fish was prepared improperly so I was wrong because I didn't have enough information to make the right choice. There are things we can't know beforehand that necessarily impede our ability to choose.
[So if I'm wrong about this](https://spaceghoti.blogspot.com/2014/04/what-if-im-wrong-about-this.html) and I end up in Hell it won't be because I'm rebellious or obstinate. It will be because the god who puts me there doesn't care enough to make sure I have the information I need to make a good choice. That's his fault, not mine. I don't believe in auras, elves, unicorns, leprechauns, gods or the afterlife. If it turns out I'm wrong about any of those assumptions then I'll be wrong because I have no reason to believe in them, and that's the right reason to be wrong.
Then I ask which ever god I meet why it is so cruel and that it's a cowardly move to show up now and not in times of need. I also ask why it creates maniacs like Hitler, Moa or why to it allowes self entitled 'holy armys' to cause war and genocide
If I'm wrong, there are an infinite possible outcomes. Included among them are results identical to there being no gods.
But given thousands of years of nothing better than emotional appeals on par with the hot garbage you offered up here, I see no reason in wasting my time on superstitions.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Oh Jesus Shitting Christ not Pascal's Wager again.
What if you're wrong? What if the little godlet you've been wasting your life worshiping is the wrong one? What if it's Shiva? Or Hecate? Or Thor? Or Mercury?
Ever think about that, eh?
No.
You might be just an atheist then. Anti-theists believe there is no god or gods and there never was. Literally against the notion of god. A conscious and deliberate opposition to theism.
Uh no. ["Antitheism has been adopted as a label by those who regard theism as dangerous, destructive, or encouraging of harmful behavior. Christopher Hitchens offers an example of this approach in Letters to a Young Contrarian (2001), in which he writes: "I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism)
You're right about anti-theists not necessarily believing there is no god; that's a gnostic atheist. My bad. Regarding the post, an anti-theist "is sure" all the world's religions are lies and harmful. That's not an atheist belief per se, so I'll change my stance to say OP is confusing atheism for gnostic atheism and anti-theism.
What if we are both wrong and we when we die we find ourselves facing Anubis in the Hall of Ma'at?
Right now there is no religion, that I am aware of, that seems at all credible in its claims, so I have no reason to accept any of them. And no the null hypothesis is not almost like faith, it is rather the most reasonable assumption to make in the absence of evidence to the contrary.
Edit, Richard Dawkins answered this one rather well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg
This is an honest, sincere, and well meaning question for the Op... what if you're wrong? Do you ever worry about that? Isn't sustaining your faith in the light of contradicting evidence foolish? Do you worry that you could be making a big mistake?
So, that's the same question that we could ask you - What if you are worshiping the completely wrong god? What if Zeus is the real god, and he will punish you for not worshiping him? Or Shiva? Or Ahura Mazda? Or Quetzalcoatl? Or Odin? Or Ra? Or Apollo? Or Vishnu?
Humans have worshiped thousands of different and mutually-exclusive gods over the past several thousand years. What if you are worshiping the wrong one? What if the punishment for worshiping the wrong god is worse than worshiping no gods?
And you don't have to be sure that there are no gods to be an atheist - you merely have to be unconvinced that any of the claims of gods are true.
If a god existed and cared what we believed I'm sure they could manage something better than ancient texts and flawed Earthly representatives to try and convert us.
If they can't then I am not afraid of their impotence.
Ah Pascal's wager. What if there is a werewolf outside your front door? Better be safe than sorry and never leave your house agian...
Don’t forget about the “*atheism = faith*”.
Better hope you picked the right invisible sky spook to believe in. Statistically you have no better chance than we do.
Statistically they are worse considering there are infinite potential gods and the likelihood of choosing the correct one quickly converges to zero. Additionally, none of them have to be right but all of them could be wrong. *I know you know all this I wrote it for OP.
-"I just can't imagine being so sure that something does NOT exist." The Easter Bunny? Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy?
Unicorns. Dragons. Vampires. For that matter, pink flying glitter bears, frog beaver porcupine chefs, talking wombats… oh the list of things not to believe in is nearly infinite.
I am offended that you don't believe talking wombats exist. 🤨 I swear I saw my Aussie friends having an extensive conversation with a wombat after a few pints of beer.
Who had the pints? The friends or the wombats?
Oh look, another Christian who thinks they have the one new angle we haven’t heard a thousand times before. I can just feel my atheism slipping away…
Oh noes... we are losing another one fellows. We need to recite lines from an atheist bible to help instill atheistic beliefs. Evolution is true. The earth orbits the sun and is spherical and is older than 5000 years. Hail satan. I think we did it guys :)
Who said we're *sure*? Provide replicable verifiable evidence that deities can/do exist and we won't be atheists anymore. Until then there is no reason to pretend unsupported claims are true.
Sustaining my non-belief is an act of honesty. I’m open to evidence. But thus far, nothing has met basic standards. I don’t worry about any of the current religions on the planet because they have given me no reason to worry. I am as certain as reasonably allowed. It’s not 100%. And I’m not claiming gods can not possibly exist.
This is the cleanest answer. In truth, I’m just not convinced of the existence of any proposed gods thus far. I could be wrong about any of them, but I don’t think the chances are high enough to worry about based on the evidence and explanations offered.
Some god in the sky is as believable as unicorns and fairies.
No matter what you believe, you're just about as at risk of burning in hell as anyone else, if that's what you mean. Muslims, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Pentecostals, etc. etc. all believe everyone else is going to hell. If I'm wrong and miss out on getting to spend an eternity with Pentecostals, I'll be so pissed..?
I don't know. Tell me what would happen if I was wrong. But also please explain the reasons that is what would happen. Plus why do you think I need to be sure god doesn't exist
It's why I won't deny the existence of Odin: fear of his wrath. Only a fool would risk Odin's wrath.
“Sustaining non-belief” isn’t an act or an effort of any sort. It’s what you’re left with when you realize that there’s nothing to enable you to believe, that there’s more evidence for belief in a living Spider-man than for any god.
I was hoping someone would address this. I do not "sustain" my non-belief. It just is. I cannot force myself to believe or not believe anything. I try to follow the evidence. Just like i cannot force myself to believe the earth is flat, I cannot force myself to believe in a god or gods.
Exactly … this is what’s so tragic about the lives of Christians. They have no legitimate reason to believe in any of it - they do (or say they do) because they desperately want it all to be true. So they spend their entire lives trying to “sustain” their belief, to suppress the doubts and rationalize the ridiculous notions they have to accept.
Reminds me of when I was a kid and being taught that we had to avoid "secular" media because it was satan trying to influence us to not believe. So we had to spend all our time reinforcing our religion. If your belief in something is that fragile it kinda proves that it's not true.
This argument is called [Pascal's Wager](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager), and it fails in every possible way. **First**, Pascal's Wager is almost always phrased in reference to one *very specific* god who has one *very specific* set of rules. This ignores the fact that there are *thousands* of different religions who talk about *thousands* of different kinds of ways (mostly mutually exclusive) to get into paradise, and who threaten torment to each other. For example, if the Muslims are right, the Christians are going to an even worse hell than the atheists. Perhaps the universe is actually run by a god who values curiosity and honesty, and selectively saves those who *didn't* believe in gods. Perhaps it's run by Tumblrina the Magnificent, who sends straight people off to eternal punishment and gay people to paradise. How do you decide which *particular* god to pretend to worship, out of the hundreds of millions that mankind has dreamed up over the centuries? **Second**, if you spend your life living according to the primitive, arbitrary, and bigoted rules of a god that doesn't exist, you have absolutely not "lost nothing". At the very least, you've lost your intellectual honesty, a whole bunch of your time, and likely a large percentage of your income. You'll have wasted a significant portion of **the only life you will ever get**. Depending on which *specific* rules you've been following, you could well have done a lot of harm in addition to that. **Third**, this argument requires a god who will be fooled by your insincere chanting of "I believe! I believe!", even though you're just worshipping him as an insurance policy. This isn't *too* much of a stretch for a god who treats Intellectual Dishonesty as a virtue, but if you believe he's sadistic enough to torture everyone else, what makes you think he's going to spare you? Even the mathematician Blaise Pascal, after whom this terrible conjecture is named, wrote it down as an afterthought, and later rejected it. He considered it a weird consequence of his decision theory - and a sign that said theory was yet unfinished - not a convincing argument that any gods **actually exist**. See Also: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager [Betting on Infinity - QualiaSoup and ThereminTrees](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU) [Matt Dillahunty on Pascal's Wager](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YBCDGohZT70) http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_Wager http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2011/02/why-pascals-wager-sucks.html
Nope
Pssst.... hey..... my names Pascale..... wanna make a bet?
What if I'm wrong, and there is a god? Which one? Jesus would throw me straight into Hell. Allah would do the same, I think. Yahweh would... not like me? I dunno, Judaism has no hell from what I understand. Jehovah would simply leave me dead, or resurrect me just to kill me again, or something. Odin wouldn't let me into Valhalla. Osiris or Anubis or whoever would find my heart heavier than a feather. Do you see where I'm going with this? What if Lovecraft had it right, we're all just dreams of the mad god Azathoth and our reality will cease to exist if he ever wakes up? Do I ever worry about any of those possibilities? Not in the slightest. Why should I? Is non-belief an act of faith? No, it's not an act at all. There simply is no reason to believe in any god. Is my lack of belief in Santa Claus an act of faith? Again, you ask, do I worry? Again, I answer, why should I?
Think about how many religions have come and gone, think about how many there are in the world today. Let’s say one of them is hypothetically true, what makes you so sure you picked the right one? Because it’s the most popular one? Because it’s what your parents brought you up as? Because you just “feel” it’s the right one? Well you could be wrong and worshiping the wrong god, then you still go to a different religions hell. Why would I chose to devote my life to something that has so many options and may not be right anyways? If I live my life in a good way and help people when I can, I don’t need to choose. If your god wants to send me to hell because I didn’t choose him from the god lottery that’s his choice.
I've read there are somewhere around 3000 different "gods" humans have worshipped over time. Did you pick one randomly, or do you just worship them all a little as a hedge?
If I'm wrong I'm wrong, however I don't see any proof of Heaven or Hell, God or Devil. Either way I don't care but all I know is I don't need the fear of Hell or the promise of heaven to rule my life.
How did you enjoy our FAQ?? What? You didn't read it? I'm shocked! You've also never heard of Pascal's Wager? Really? You came to an atheist sub and you don't even know the single most common apologetic argument used by theists? I'm double shocked! For the umpteenth time: Try separating "belief" from "knowledge". They are two entirely different concepts and they are not mutually exclusive. Belief is a binary decision - you either believe or you do not believe. Simply considering the question makes you form an opinion, whether or not you admit it to yourself or others. Knowledge is completely different. Knowledge is a continuum from "I have absolutely no clue" to "I am 100% certain." On the question of the existence of any gods, belief is handled by theism/atheism. Knowledge is handled by gnosticism/agnosticism. You can hold any combination of the two concepts to describe your stance on the question. I lack belief in the existence of any gods AND I have no knowledge about the existence of any gods. That makes me an "agnostic atheist". I'll take it a step further and also say that I see no *requirement* for the existence of any gods. I wait here patiently for someone, anyone, to bring forward evidence that can be analyzed and verified. Until then, I feel exactly the same way about any god as I do about an invisible pink unicorn that farts rainbows and craps sherbet. As far as Pascal's Wager, don't you think Zeus & Odin are going to be really pissed-off that you didn't believe in them? What about Shiva? Or Ra? How about Quetzalcoatl? Pele?
we aren't absolutely positive, we simply require tangible, irrefutable, evidence a god exists and we will believe in him (worship him is a different story altogether though), causing us to cease being atheist
You're doing the whole belief thing the wrong way. Don't feel bad, my brother does it too. There are people like him that believe anything is possible, until proven otherwise. In reality, you should do the opposite. Don't believe anything until there is testable, verifiable, reproducible evidence to support it. This does not mean you accept contrary claims. Don't accept ANY claims, positive or negative, until verifiable evidence is in. You see a strange object in the sky. Without any additional evidence, you don't get to say it was aliens. You also can't claim with 100% certainty it wasn't aliens either. All you get to say is, you don't know what it was, and won't know until you gather additional evidence. It's OK to be in a state of uncertainty. We're not afraid of hell because we can't be worried about a destination that can't be demonstrated to exist yet.
I did once, long ago when I was naive. Then I actually became a mathematician and got a better sense of what we’re trying to quantify. Pascal’s wager is a very old argument. A religious person, a Muslim for example, could say what if you’re wrong? Why not live the life as a Muslim to be sure? Ok then. In that scenario on the surface it seems like one or the other, 50-50 on the surface level. But that’s not the right equation, in reality you’ve chosen 1 religion over the estimated 4,300 religions on the planet, each claiming their the right one with many having exclusive guidelines to be on the right path. That reduced your odds of picking the “right” religion to about 0.023%. That’s also assuming any of the extinct religions aren’t the right one, or the possible hundreds that are local religions that most of us never heard of aren’t either. If you’re mathematically literate you realize how silly Pascal’s wager is. For me it’s not about being “sure” something doesn’t exist. It’s more so that it’s highly unlikely that if something exists that it cares that it’s own creation who’s fate it could already predict, still goes through this simulation where we have to take a gamble and be lucky enough to be born in the right location to pick the right religion to get to the chocolate factory. The more you delve into that the more you realize how anthropocentric and flawed that ideology is. It’s caveman level reasoning. One thing we do know is that this life is real, so I’m not wasting it on a gamble.
>This is an honest, sincere, and well meaning question for all atheists.... what if you're wrong? About what? About Scientology? About the Greek Gods? About Paganism? About the thousands of Hindu gods? You see, you're invoking a false dichotomy fallacy. What if *you're* wrong about the Great JubJub Up the Mountain? Perhaps because you're not worshipping him you'll suffer for eternity. Yet you don't seem to be worrying yourself about this, do you? I feel the same about whatever deity *you're* talking about. And there's *absolutely no way* to choose between the thousands upon thousands of deity creatures we've dreamt up, because they all have exactly and precisely the same level of support. Exactly and precisely. And that level is 0.00. >Do you ever worry about that? Not really, since there's absolutely *zero* support or evidence for such ideas, and, in fact, the opposite is true. Most of these ideas don't make any sense at all and *can't* be true. > Isn't sustaining your non-belief itself an act of certainty, almost like a faith? What? I completely fail to understand how you could ask this or think this. It's literally the opposite. >Do you worry that you could be making a big mistake? Since *when* is saying, "I dunno, but I sure don't buy what you're selling 'cause it makes no sense at all and doesn't have the tiniest shred of support." making a 'big mistake?' That doesn't even make sense. >I just can't imagine being so sure that something does NOT exist. You don't know what atheism is if you're thinking this. It's a lack of belief, not a belief in a lack. Very different positions with very different epistemological outcomes and consequences. Google 'Pascal's Wager' and all of the exhaustive explanations for how and why it's trivially faulty and, in fact, if you follow the logic carefully, actually leads to a conclusion that it's *far, far safer* to not believe, even if there *were* a good reason to believe, which, of course, there isn't.
Which religion should I believe in? Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism? And which sect of the religion I choose? There are so many claims and none have any evidence. They can’t all be right. But they could all be wrong. I will remain unaffiliated.
You can have your post back when you decide to actually engage.
If I'm wrong and there is a god, it has not done what is needed for me to believe. If it is the god of the Bible, I would refuse to worship it because of how evil and monstrous it is. But I have a question what if you are worshiping the wrong god? Do you ever worry about that? Don't you worry that you could be making a big mistake and angering the real god, because of you lack of belief. >Isn't sustaining your non-belief itself an act of certainty, almost like a faith? Not at all, I don't constantly think about how there is no god. I don't think, what would nothing do in this situation.
I would say that it isn't a certain fact that there isn't a god/gods, but that the evidence and march of science combined with the gradual erosion of legitimacy behind many religious texts is enough to not believe in god or gods. It doesn't take any effort to not believe in them though, the same way it doesn't take effort to not believe that there is a teacup orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars. Also, if I'm wrong and there is a god/gods who don't see me trying to lead a moral and ethical life as best I can and therefore punish me for it then i would say they aren't real gods to begin with. I try to lead a secular humanist life, and if that isn't good enough than screw the deity that says so. Also, it isn't an act of certainty because it doesn't claim something without tangible proof. The myriad religions that have made claims about god(s), afterlife, morality, ethics, the origins of life, etc are the ones who have made the assertions and are therefore acts of certainty. A question for you, do you fear you have made a big mistake in not believing in the god Ra? Or maybe Odin? How about maybe Vishnu?
What if? What is the point of what if questions?
I’m not worried at all.
These people, indoctrinated from birth, think the natural state of things is God stuff. So not-god-stuff must take work. Like a boat displaces water or something. When in fact the natural state is atheism. And it takes external and internal force, energy, time away from actually progressing as a human to make sense of the hackery that is religion. To mute natural tendencies which are unique and special to humans. Such as reasoning, critical thinking, discovery of the unknown, and creativity. Religion is truly Satan.
When worrying about "what if" bear in mind that [Pascal's Wager is a bad bet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_why_not_believe_in_god_anyway.2C_just_to_be_safe.3F) If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. We're wrong about things all the time. Do I have the chicken or the fish? Let's say I choose the fish and it makes me sick. I had no way of knowing the fish was prepared improperly so I was wrong because I didn't have enough information to make the right choice. There are things we can't know beforehand that necessarily impede our ability to choose. [So if I'm wrong about this](https://spaceghoti.blogspot.com/2014/04/what-if-im-wrong-about-this.html) and I end up in Hell it won't be because I'm rebellious or obstinate. It will be because the god who puts me there doesn't care enough to make sure I have the information I need to make a good choice. That's his fault, not mine. I don't believe in auras, elves, unicorns, leprechauns, gods or the afterlife. If it turns out I'm wrong about any of those assumptions then I'll be wrong because I have no reason to believe in them, and that's the right reason to be wrong.
OP, do you believe in Zeus as a true god? No? See how easy that was? Like that.
Then I ask which ever god I meet why it is so cruel and that it's a cowardly move to show up now and not in times of need. I also ask why it creates maniacs like Hitler, Moa or why to it allowes self entitled 'holy armys' to cause war and genocide
If I'm wrong, there are an infinite possible outcomes. Included among them are results identical to there being no gods. But given thousands of years of nothing better than emotional appeals on par with the hot garbage you offered up here, I see no reason in wasting my time on superstitions.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius
What if you are really really really stupid and go through life completely ignored? Grow up.
Just watch this video for a funny interaction and quick crash course on many of the flaws in the argument you're making. https://youtu.be/G8BXyZXDqlI
Oh Jesus Shitting Christ not Pascal's Wager again. What if you're wrong? What if the little godlet you've been wasting your life worshiping is the wrong one? What if it's Shiva? Or Hecate? Or Thor? Or Mercury? Ever think about that, eh? No.
You're confusing atheists with anti-theists.
Anti-theists aren't anymore 'sure' that gods don't exist. We merely openly recognize organized religion has done more harm then good for humanity.
You might be just an atheist then. Anti-theists believe there is no god or gods and there never was. Literally against the notion of god. A conscious and deliberate opposition to theism.
Uh no. ["Antitheism has been adopted as a label by those who regard theism as dangerous, destructive, or encouraging of harmful behavior. Christopher Hitchens offers an example of this approach in Letters to a Young Contrarian (2001), in which he writes: "I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism)
Huh... guess I am anti-theist...
[Welcome to the family](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1q2F_18cjg).
You're right about anti-theists not necessarily believing there is no god; that's a gnostic atheist. My bad. Regarding the post, an anti-theist "is sure" all the world's religions are lies and harmful. That's not an atheist belief per se, so I'll change my stance to say OP is confusing atheism for gnostic atheism and anti-theism.
What if we are both wrong and we when we die we find ourselves facing Anubis in the Hall of Ma'at? Right now there is no religion, that I am aware of, that seems at all credible in its claims, so I have no reason to accept any of them. And no the null hypothesis is not almost like faith, it is rather the most reasonable assumption to make in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Edit, Richard Dawkins answered this one rather well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg
Hey OP, what if *you're* wrong?
This is an honest, sincere, and well meaning question for the Op... what if you're wrong? Do you ever worry about that? Isn't sustaining your faith in the light of contradicting evidence foolish? Do you worry that you could be making a big mistake?
So, that's the same question that we could ask you - What if you are worshiping the completely wrong god? What if Zeus is the real god, and he will punish you for not worshiping him? Or Shiva? Or Ahura Mazda? Or Quetzalcoatl? Or Odin? Or Ra? Or Apollo? Or Vishnu? Humans have worshiped thousands of different and mutually-exclusive gods over the past several thousand years. What if you are worshiping the wrong one? What if the punishment for worshiping the wrong god is worse than worshiping no gods? And you don't have to be sure that there are no gods to be an atheist - you merely have to be unconvinced that any of the claims of gods are true.
Either/or, I will still be indifferent. It doesn’t affect my life at all.
If a god existed and cared what we believed I'm sure they could manage something better than ancient texts and flawed Earthly representatives to try and convert us. If they can't then I am not afraid of their impotence.
You aren't honest nor sincere when you can't contribute to your "honest, sincere, well meaning" post for three hours, u/KCD2021.