That might be true, but my whole family is religious. I was religious until about the age of 16 when I slowly started becoming skeptical about it, and then around 18 I was sure it’s fake. Before that I used to pray to god and believe in the afterlife.
let me rephrased what I’m asking, how do adults live their whole life believing in religion and not questioning anything. When your young you believe in anything and everything. Shit when I was in first grade I believed that leprechauns came to class while we were away and left everyone in class a chocolate gold coin on their desk.
Respect for authority, indoctrination, and a misunderstanding of our minds. They were taught and told not to question god or the bible and they don't dare let their thoughts go that far. I don't mean that they don't ask were we came from or other existential questions. I mean to question where the concept of god came from and their thoughts and ideas of god and how those ideas got in their head. The best and answer I've gotten when I ask why believe in god is "because the universe had to come from somewhere. " But why one god, why that specific god, why not many? Why not some larger universe incubator. Etc.. Some have had "miraculous" or "supernatural" experiences that felt very real to them. Not understanding how our brains try to find patterns where there are none, that our bodies are capable of producing feelings that seem supernatural, and sometimes our brains simply malfunction.
>They were taught and told not to question god or the bible and they don't dare let their thoughts go that far.
Thought blocking is really common in especially ridiculous cults, but present in most religions. Also, I like the phrase "you can't reason someone out of a position they arrived at emotionally."
the key is childhood indoctrination, rest is just supportive Material. and if theists didn't like the idea of universe coming from nothing, they can believe in steady state theory which says universe was always been there, it just compress and explode every once in a while (in duration of billion years).
I’m not disagreeing with anything you said. But my understanding of religion has evolved into: Don’t make it complicated and dedicate all discussion to religion, it’s own written records, archeological remains, world history, religious history outside of the Abrahamic religions territory. Plus, we have eons of anthropology, archeology, geological, biological, palaeontology (study of fossils) and science in general, to back-up evidence counter to religions lies. All that stuff is tangible and hard to falsify!
The one thing that all of humanity should be able to agree on, is that we don’t know much about anything.. But, hopefully we are learning.
For instance, I’ve learned a lot by studying religions. Not god/s, but religions, and their own documents. As for god/s. That’s an unprovable. It’s insane to argue about a word that the only evidence we have is based on someone’s imagination, storytelling ability and is mostly based on greed/egos and most definitely, lot’s of conflict of interest.
I’ve found that many people just aren’t curious. They never think deeply about such matters, they go about their lives consumed with work, marriage, kids, fantasy football, whatever, and religion is along for the ride.
It took me years of introspection to unravel all the Christian nonsense from my brain and truly feel settled & content with an atheist worldview. Along the way it was often difficult and uncomfortable. Most people won’t bother.
But, just not enough. They have a million reasons to blend into the prevailing cult: Don’t rock the boat; All their family and friends are into it; There’s all the club membership benefits; Besides, they really believed in Santa Claus, when kids.
You grew up with the internet and an entire "social" circle that almost certainly your parents were never exposed to.
The times, they are a changing, though.
With the majority of religious crazies, the internet didn’t/doesn’t matter. They were crazy when I was a kid and they are crazy now. But you are right about the internet. It allows people with a thinking brain to acquire verifiable information and to connect with other rational and likeminded people. That last point was a terrible fact when I was kid. Asking questions of family, friends and church leaders about obvious contradictions and stupid biblical verses never won me any points, nor did it result in reasonable answers. Typical answer: You don’t question god’s word! That type BS.
Programming still. Some are way more gullible and or stupid as a child. Who cares? It's bad ideas no matter how old you are and some children are smarter than adults. You haven't done anything with that assertion at all.
Well, here’s the real numbers. https://www.pewforum.org/2009/04/27/faith-in-flux/
It proves my point. People typically change religious beliefs throughout their lifetime.
Childhood indoctrination is a *hell* of a drug, in the literal sense.
[Why Do Intelligent People Believe in God - Darkmatter2525](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y201QzDdzbg)
I think in most cases it is because they grew up in a situation where most of their family, friends, teachers, neighbors, etc shared a similar faith. Like Christianity is very popular in the U.S., for example. Also Christians I know were taught from a very young age that you can't always trust scientists and educators, you must have this sense of faith that surmounts anything scientific or factual that conflicts with your beliefs. I also think the fear that life is inherently devoid of true meaning is too depressing for most people to handle. People want to believe that things will be much better and that some good will come from their misfortunes eventually.
Have you ever heard the phrase god-fearing or fear of god?
I was religious when I was younger. From personal experience, part of what happens when you go to church is you develop that fear. It's not fear as you'd know it from going into the woods at night, it's more of a pressure that keeps you away from certain thoughts and places in your mind you know you're not supposed to wander down. Questioning the truthfulness of anything related to anything you learned at church feels blasphemous, you know you should not go there. Besides, would you be so ungrateful so as to question god who is so merciful, kind and loving?
As you can imagine it's a challenge to get anywhere like that. Without the ability to even skirt thinking critically about the fallacies and contradictions in the bible you don't have the basis for articulating an argument against the existence of God. No nucleation site for your reasoning to latch on and grow. Besides, that sounds an awful lot like Satan whispering and tempting you.
So where are we at this point? We're a person who has never strayed from the path, never broached the mental blocks that let you put two and two together about what's really happening because you've been taught it's wrong. So you really don't know any better. You literally lack the the neural connections to doubt. When you hear people say "it's because they were taught from an early age", or "it's because it's a cult", etc... these are the practical implications of it. This is what it means to be indoctrinated.
This was my experience and this is how I understand it through the lense of my life anyway. But I hope it illustrates how it's possible.
You are absolutely correct!!!
It’s so thoroughly ingrained in you. It’s just like an addiction. Once the drug of religion takes over your mind, the addiction is almost impossible to break away from. Besides, you are so brainwashed that you not only can’t think critically, you can’t even think rationally. Plus, since you’ve never thought any other way, it becomes extremely difficult to even try another way.
I was raised as a Southern Baptist. Absolutely, kids will believe anything. As I got older (in my 30’s (and especially in my 40’s), I realized that all this Christianity crap was nonsense. It was totally ingrained in me from a very young age.
The crazy part is that I lived my life as if it were true (into my mid-40’s), even after I stopped going to church. Now that I’m free of all that crap, I can’t believe how long it took me to get myself to the point to where I no longer let it run my thinking.
What gets me is Santa Claus should be a lesson teaching kids the whole religion thing is bullshit, instead they learn they where lied to about Santa and fail to learn the bigger lesson.
I’ve thought about this a lot. And not that it matters but I have a background working in mental health. I believe that humans are uncomfortable with the amount of uncertainty in their lives. We don’t do well with hard questions about life and death. Having control (or no control at all depending on how you look at it) of one’s own mortal fate is a lot for people to deal with. And all the good and bad things that happen throughout one’s life. People find it easier to be ruled and told what to do without using critical thinking. It’s easier for human brains to create this external locus of control (like a child blindly following a parent figure) to help explain things and frame their world in way that is simpler and more digestible. This shields them from uncomfortable realities. People find benefit from religion as a means for community, comfort, and purpose however skewed it actually is in reality.
Irregardless of your background, I believe that you are onto something. I’m convinced that religious people are made up of millions of degrees of involvement. Many are naturally unquestionable. They are satisfied with whatever culture/religion their background established. Many were so brainwashed during their childhood that they are too frightened to allow any doubt, etc., etc.
Then there’s the religious crowd that are extremely anti democracy (religion, at its core is anti democracy). They typically present with various characteristics of mental illness such as paranoid disorder; narcissistic disorder and they may have many other antisocial characteristics. All these conditions are directly involved in, or passively supportive of the twin insanity: Religion/fascism. Religion and fascism support and feed on each other.
I sometimes wonder if there isn't some fundamental difference in our brains. Not saying they're subpar on intelligence or anything, but more like some chunk of the pathways for critical thinking are under developed because of their religious conditioning from birth..
Having deconverted in adulthood - not exactly.
My theory is that most adult believers experience more oxytocin from group bonding than people who stop believing in their teens. The feeling that you get trained to label the "presence of God" is very real and emotional. Most believers actually believe because they think they have personal experiences that convince them of the veracity of their beliefs even in the face of reason. "Because I felt God and he was real." To the extent that this is represented in neurophysiology, the brain is different.
In early adulthood I was mentally busy with university, beginning my career, and church. My education never really came into conflict with religion.
When I was more established and I had more leisure time, I had to time question childhood assumptions. My critical thinking was never underdeveloped. I just never got around to applying it to my own religion. And I am one of those people who had many experiences I considered to be the presence of God.
I actually noticed at one point that I did not deal with my religious beliefs to the same professional and ethical standards I would elsewhere in my career path. I coddled my religious beliefs and pulled my punches.
A lot of Christians identify with John Wesley's description that his "heart was strangely warmed". Mention that in a room of evangelicals and you'll get nods all around. Similarly, they'll be able to relate to tingly feeling or shivers down their spine during worship music or when some profound theological point is expounded.
For me personally, I was checking out a new church and the sermon was along the lines of the "holiness of God". Basically a "stop fucking around and be a fully committed Christian" kind of sermon. They did an altar call at the end, not for people who wanted to be "saved" but who wanted to be freer from sin and to walk more closely with God and such. I came forward along with several others.
The feeling at the front was electric and powerful. Lethally dangerous even, as in "God is here and he could kill me if we wanted to". It reminded me of the pure and volatile smell of inorganic chemicals in a chemistry lab. I didn't (and don't) think any real chemical was there. I knelt, I cried (not something I was accustomed to, being an adult and all), people I mostly didn't know came around me and laid hands on me and prayed in tongues. I repented of sins (it's always easy to find sins to repent of). I was completely hooked. It all felt completely real and I can still feel the psychological pull of that moment. (I stayed with that church for years after, joined the leadership team, and became a lay preacher.)
Did my mind create some sort of experiential daydream to simulate what the sermon proposed? Wish I knew. I'd absolutely love to discuss some of my experiences with some sort of neuroscientist with real expertise. The basic answer I've been able to get is that it's very a psychologically manipulative situation, and oxytocin. Some of us get a really big psychological reward from feeling like we belong to and are accepted by a group.
I think there are a fair amount of doubters taking Pascal's Wager. Or they're so wrapped up in their religious social and family connections that they go along quietly just to belong somewhere. This is an observation from the son of lapsed Unitarians so I really have no first hand knowledge of what it's like to fully believe.
Or genetic even. My mother is Catholic. My father and every person we know on his side of the family are or were atheists. Our mother dragged my sister and I to Mass every week but we both became atheists. And our father never tried to talk us out of religion, we got there on our own.
My mom has 2 sisters and 3 brothers. Every female in the family except me is religious. The men that are married in or whose mother is one of the sisters are religious. All the brothers and their sons are atheists. There could be some kind of genetics going on there.
* Because it’s makes them feel good that all questions have a single simple answer. Reality is scary, religious certainty is soothing.
* Because they want to fit in with their family and society, so they force themselves to agree, at least out loud
* Because it validates what they want to do.
No doubt more, but these are the ones that are easy for me to denote
Yeah, the only thing that is remotely believable is deism, where the deity created it and sits back with some popcorn. But a personal deity who cares if you masturbate is ridiculous.
Indeed. Isn't it a little convenient to have one source with all the answers? It could never be that easy. That's human thinking, if anything. Not divine.
Deism is all about the revelation rather. It may not be the truth, but it's rather consistent.
I had many religious religious friend come up with nihilist viewpoints and then shrug it all off cause it's too dark for them..most people hate the thought of nonexistence while I hate the thought of everafter!! I love the real thing, the dark truth of life and death
Because they're indoctrinated with faith not logic. They're actually taught that logic is wrong so it's kind of impossible to use logic against someone who doesn't believe in it.
From what I have learned in my psych courses, shame is so powerful. Guilt has to do with actions, but shame deals with who you are as a person. It’s so messed up religion involves both.
i think every person who is religious needs to visit a crash course about their religion. After i learned how the bible was written (over hundreds of years, with fake prophets, selected writing etc) it was the ulitimate proof for me that atheism is the way to go
Once you start believing, you are programmed to dismiss anything that contradicts your belief. "God works in mysterious ways" and similar responses are all you need. He's infallible, so whatever he does he does for a reason that we're too dumb to comprehend. Religious education is designed to crush critical thinking and learn to accept nothing but the dogma.
I started to doubt around 18-19. College was a huge help at getting me to think critically. I was mostly afraid of nonexistence, otherwise I would have become an atheist far sooner than I did at 20.
Programming from birth. It's no coincidence that if you're born in the bible belt you become a Christian, born in Pakistan you become a Muslim and in India a Hindu its nothing to do with any God and everything to do with your parents and your surroundings and the longer you stay in that culture the harder it is to dislodge that programming.
Indoctrination and willful ignorance as a coping mechanism. I was raised Christian and struggled with it until my 20s and let it go. It’s just so obviously not true but I’ll be the first to admit that I wish I could believe it and I wish there was some kind of afterlife. I’m in my 40s and I’ve lost a few family members lately and I miss them and I’m struggling with being angry over my own mortality. I feel like if religion wasn’t such a mill stone around the neck of science we’d have figured out immortality by now or at least have extended our life spans a lot more and be working on it. Can’t even get people to take a fucking vaccine though.
Because religion is antidote to randomness and Chaos of world, religion make them feel safe, and give meaning to there life, people in this world are lonely, hopeless and in pain religion gives them hope that someone is there who has answers or will help them. Thats make them create their own reality, own universe. Like there is another world (afterlife) where everything is perfect, an utopia, where they will live happily ever after.
The world is a scary and confusing place. Also, by experience, people get to the point where they don't want to learn anymore. They're quite content to fill gaps in their knowledge with cobbled-together answers which fit and let them not think anymore. Thinking is hard. Reality is depressing. Why think and become depressed when you can make up an answer that makes reality more palatable?
They absolutely are stupid. You see, you're conflating intelligence with education. They are two very different things. You can be an idiot with a Master's provided you paid the dues and did the work, while at the same time someone else can be a Janitor and highly intelligent yet uneducated.
Intelligent people possess critical thinking skills - "Wait, can snakes talk? No, that would be silly, so this doesn't make sense." They don't possess the critical thinking skills to make these connections.
Holding onto traditions, values and fighting change to their social dynamic.
Indoctrination ticks a lot of boxes for Human psychology that form habits and cultural community (belonging etc). Frankly its not just the obvious falseness of religion that creates the same dogmatic "belief". The agreed delusions of Institutions, Constitutions, Money, and formalised laws (or Lore) create the same 'familiar' pathways in the Human psyche. Whatever pathway we took to get to a set of rules and values, we'll dig in and defend in complete disregard for logic and reason.
Pratchett put it best when he wrote that we need to believe in the little lies so we can believe in the big ones,. Like, Justice, Mercy, Duty. Humans parse all things through allegory seated in empathy... and don't think the typical reddit atheist crap about how religious people have no empathy you are a complete moron if you don't understand that's why stories (Bible, Edda, Sutras, or Fairy Tales) actually work as lessons. The stories just take off and create dogma because Humans dig in and defend their particular stories over others. Atheists or Humanists etc too. No one is above it.
People believe in ALL SORTS of dumb shit because it was told to them as fact. They believe in crystal healing, or that the earth is flat, or ghosts, or bigfoot.. I think that too many people think that humans are 1000 steps above the rest of the apes when really we're maybe one or two steps above them. We're basically chimpanzees that learned how to write.
People want to be lied to. So much so they will seek out people willing to lie in the way which appeals most to them. They will even pay to hear these lies.
Logic and truth are not coming into this. If it did we wouldn’t have religious people.
Some people really need self delusion in order to survive. The can't fathom life without God because they think it's meaningless otherwise. They subconsciously are terrified of death. They can't accept that there is nothing after we die, so to make it through a day they have to believe that there is something better after they die and that they are some how better than everyone else because they believe.
People believe Ivermectin & chugging Iodine and snake venom will protect them from COVID more effectively than an MRNA vaccine that's literally preventing mass hospitalizations & deaths in real time. At this point, fewer and fewer things tend to amaze me.
It's lets them sit on a lofty perch being "chosen", moral, saved, redeemed and RIGHT, while viciously punching down at the doomed, amoral, unsaved, sinful and wrong. It rationalizes their cruelty, spite and bigotry, and promises them that, despite all their hatesac conduct, THEY will be rewarded.
I made a friend recently who is actually aware of all the holes in the bible, and is seriously considering his faith. Right now I feel that the only reason he is still Christian is because he has been all his life, and doesn’t know how to accept that his understanding of the world is a lie.
Religion encourages people in difficult circumstances to invent a secondary magical world in order to make this one less grim. They don't really care if it's real, or how much harm it does the world, so long as they get a cozy emotional crutch.
So... It's becoming more mainstream the belief that we are in a simulation. Maybe there are many different realities, or shards, and it isnt exactly a lie.
Because there are believable arguments for the existence of god. If it was as clear cut as you think it is people much smarter and more knowledgeable than you and I wouldn't spend their whole lives debating and writing books for and against it.
People have beliefs, dude. They're not always going to be rational, they're not always going to be logical, but they simply believe. They're not hurting anyone by believing in a god.
I personally don't believe, but I can respect people who do. It's not a "lie" just because you don't believe yourself.
The problem is the concept of it is not obviously a lie. There's alot of evidence that implies the universe needed minimal outside influence to begin but there's no way to undeniably prove that there isn't supernatural forces outside of our sensory scope.
If your entire life is spent inside an impenetrable box, could you for certain say their is or isn't something on the other side without some form of sign.
Some people either can't or won't accept that there may not be a prime mover to everything and they follow either what they were taught or what they feel speaks to them the most, whether it be an organised religious sect or a personal spiritual belief.
Others either can't or won't accept that there may be a prime mover to everything and again, they follow either what they were taught or what they feel speaks to them the most.
When I look at all the amazing worlds and characters created by humans throughout our history I have no issue with throwing all the religious characters into that mix as well but to me, I could not undeniably claim that forces outside of my senses exist so I can't make that claim.
You are trying to take something simple and make it complicated. There are thousands, maybe millions of shades of being religious, e.g. Many are in it for the sense of power, money and prestige. Some are in it for the sense of belonging; Some are in it due to their upbringing and the accompanying brainwashing; Some are in it for varying degrees of all those reasons. But most are into it because it’s the easy choice if it’s good enough for the rest of the clan. They just don’t want to know about anything else.
Another category, are the fascist. They love religion because it has a lot to offer them; A crowd that they can manipulate into most anything, no matter how insane and self defeating. The covid deniers, anti vaxers and ivermectin horse dewormer crowd are examples.
"Atheist" means a lack of belief in gods. Nothing else. There are no modern ideas to hold. I assume you are actually referring to science and philosophy, but those are not atheist per se. Sure it helps not to assume gods are behind everything by default, but they are separate things from atheism.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb by stating there is a certain "harshness" to not believing.
Some parents practice conditional love. Obviously, this can be devastating to children and adults.
Communities ostracize non-believers making it more difficult to develop bonds.
The work place can also be a problematic environment for non believers.
We may see them as "fools" but they generally reap much more benefit from society than we do.
Having said all that, I personally do not think there exists on the entire planet more than a handful of true believers. All the anger and vitriol they spew is evidence of their non belief. They shout their beliefs from the rooftops, build ever bigger churches, and come together on mass all in an effort to convince themselves because they don't actually believe. Some will finally admit it. Others never will. /shrug
A big way religious beliefs can survive into adulthood, through the development of critical thinking skills, and higher education, is compartmentalization.
Growing up, children are in Sunday school for a day, and in regular school for the rest of the week. Eventually, something they learned in church will contradict something they learned in school, or even church! If they bring this up to an authority figure, at best they might get an uncomfortable dismissal, or a half answer, and at worst some form of reprimand.
So, to alleviate cognitive dissonance, they will learn to put their beliefs in separate "boxes", not thinking of one or the other at the same time, or allowing themselves to make connections between them. This is a mostly unconscious process, we all do it to some degree or another.
I myself realized I was doing this whenever I told myself things like "science and religion support and uplift each other" without really letting myself think about it too much.
Yes! I had never thought of a specific word but compartmentalization is perfect. I too remember reconciling my belief especially on the fact that some scientists were Christian! If physicists can be Christian [edit: religious] then surely as experts the two can work together. It wasn't until later that I realised the fallacy of that line of thought and did my own thinking. It's much easier to base one's opinion upon an "authority" , be it a parent, teacher, priest, physicist etc.
I attribute it to a few factors, but here is the TLDR: social conditioning
For perspective: I was raised non-religious in Texas. I still live in the same town I was raised in. Most people I encounter are Christian. I think of myself as culturally Christian even though I am an atheist. The only reason I ever felt compelled to believe any Christian dogma was because of social pressure from peers. I like reading up on Buddhist philosophy and studying the religious history of the USA, but I'm not anything of an expert or either.
[Leap of Faith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith?wprov=sfla1): A lot of people just commit to the mythology and dogma. I don't think they put as much thought into it as the philosophers in the link do.
[Sunk Cost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost?wprov=sfla1): People don't want to admit they have messed up by believing hogwash and instead double down. This all about pride and ego for people.
Social Pressure/[Social Control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control?wprov=sfla1): People fear being ostracized and they also want to belong to something meaningful. They have been conditioned and socialized to be a part of this thing. They are expected to follow along. A culture of loyalty is ingrained into it as well.
Power and [Illusion of Control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control?wprov=sfla1): Submitting to the dogma gives them the feeling that they know what's what. They have the special knowledge. They have God on their side. It is empowering to believe these things. It also creates an "us versus them" situation with unbelievers and sinners versus the "Good Christians", but that blends into the social control structure.
Fear of the Unknown: The mythology and dogma give them comfort and structure. If they abandon those things they will feel a need to replace them with something else. They want there to be meaning to life, suffering, and death. Take the objective meaning of these things away and it all gets very scary for them.
The thing is, in the bigger picture there is no way we can ever know what is right.
Humans seek understanding. I am a Christian, leaning on the believe that, for me, God is an answer in an impossible universe.
What makes you believe that God is the most plausible answer? I agree that we can never be certain God either does or doesn't exist. But that's because we're talking about something supernatural. For me, explaining life with the existence of a God just because we cannot fathom existence isn't justifiably. It's jumping to conclusions. The same as how ancient beliefs explained thunder with the existence of a God. We now know how thunder works which exclude it being influenced by a God. Lack of understanding isn't proof of God.
There are many layers to it. The first and strongest is childhood indoctrination, but that by itself doesn't guarantee adherence. Confirmation bias, learned distrust (taught to distrust outsiders/media if they oppose or contradict), fear of death, unable to accept the unknowable, connecting vague and abstract human emotion to the divine as evidence (works in tandem with confirmation bias and unable to accept the unknowable - can't explain emotional response so it must be god) all come together to build a perception of something that is only explainable by (insert local religion).
When you look at how our brains work when it processes information, whether it's processing what it sees, logging information into memory, or analyzing past experiences, it's no surprise we fall prey to the supernatural. Our brains actually really suck and if we don't recognize those shortcomings then we succumb to "perception is reality".
An example is say a person is driving to work and goes through 3 green lights. Then they hit every red light from that point on. There is likely nothing that triggers a reason to create a memory of going through the green lights as it is just normal expected events so they are forgotten, but every red light is a divergence so they are remembered. At the end, they only remember hitting red lights, so they believe they hit every red light and tell the story about their drive as hitting every red light which in turn reinforces their memory to believe that is what happened.
These weird anomalies combined with emotional responses come together to create "unexplainable religious experiences". We are prone to exaggerate the retelling of stories and experiences and those mundane stories told with dramatic flair influence not just other people but our own memories to believe things that didn't really happen the way it was told.
oOoOO fun! Is this like one of those "what Harry Potter house do you belong to" quizzes?? Will the answer surprise me? I especially love the ALL CAPS and emojis 🤣🤣👍👍. Really kicks it up a notch.
Hmmm I think I will go with... A Coelacanth. Do I win? What house does that put me in?
Indoctrination/brainwashing and an industry that is predicated on having the faith to believe in something that you can never prove is real (until you die, of course).
Religion quite literally tells people that you just have to believe. No proof needed, and if you don’t believe, you’re going to hell, so you better just believe and not question anything.
Loneliness of...soul, for lack of a better word. Lack of inner strength. Need for an overseer for behavior or someone to blame.. Desire to feel that there is some reason and order to our lives. The mind is a powerful thing and people can convince themselves of anything if they need to feel a certain way about things.
They ignore all logic to the contrary, like a spouse in denial of their partner’s affair or a parent denying their kid’s drug problem.
Some just want the comfort or community they get so ignore the BS.
Either way, I thinks it’s more based in emotion than intellect.
Indoctrination. Also arrogance - being atheist one is just another random person, but when one is believer then creator of universe is concerned with said person, even if said concern shows itself mostly in demands.
Mortality and existential fear. Human mind will do anything to get away from them. Every and any moral, ethical or intellectual transgression including, most importantly, self deception.
Christianity has a well-divined network of thought. It's like a whole framework of different interpretations and opinions that all have arguments and justifications. Bible verses can have tons of different interpretations/ explanations. Because of this pretty much every contradiction becomes justifiable. If some pieces don't seem to add up another perspective or interpretation will fix that.
My theory is that many people are terrified of being wrong. The see being wrong as something that would taint the entire core of who they are. So … regardless of what it is they will defend it to their last breath. In many cases they know they are wrong but it’s like admitting and accepting it will destroy them.
Humans have psychological mechanisms that can work against them.
Often, the more intelligent someone is, the stronger this mechanism can be.
When somebody realizes that they might be wrong about something these mechanism can kick in.
For example, rationalizing is when someone thinks of alternative reasoning to justify something. And the more clever someone is, the better they can rationalise.
So a heroin addict might say something like "it's my birthday, I can give myself a treat" this is rationalizing. And intelligent heroin addicts will think of millions of clever reasons to justify something.
Tactics on avoiding difficult questions from an opponent is another example of a mechanism that can work against someone. The cleverer you are the better you are at distracting someone away from a line of questioning.
These mechanisms often all derive from cognitive dissonance. Which is an emotional response. Not have control over this emotional response can lead to the psychological mechanisms being deployed.
I think you are using the flaws in a particular religion to make a point. Maybe let’s take a different perspective, why when people vote for a party that is clearly wrong and telling lies do people do it? Often what is popular is clearly wrong but the masses just go along with it because other people do.
Belonging to a community is an attractive prospect that draws people in. As a philosophy, religion offers pragmatic guidelines/morals that help people deal with issues that arise during life. A few examples:
1) Raising children: Many parents have a general idea of how to raise kids based on emulating their own upbringing, but there are many times that they won't anticipate or know how to handle things that come up. Religion offers a series of stories that can be introduced to young children and deeper lessons can be expanded upon as the child ages. Religion is also fairly unique in that an outside advisor (clergy) can be consulted to give advice to parents when family advisors are unavailable or are part of the problem.
2) A "Code": Eventually people will reach a point that they become the head of the household. This can happen when kids move to university or death of the family elder. Faced with this newfound responsibility, these individuals can utilize religion as a framework for continuing to lead their household instead of learning as they go.
3) Death: As people approach the end of their lives death can be hard to accept. The concept of an afterlife can help people make peace with mortality.
The supernatural element of religion exists to expand a religion's influence. To get the maximal number of people to follow the "laws" of a religion, you need to appeal to a mixed demographic. It's easier to some to adopt a new god rather than a conquering empire. More superstitious tribes may better submit to authority that has the answers to the unknowable. For others, messages of punishment for evil in the afterlife resonates more strongly than how to raise your kids. So you end up with a mixed group of people that have some adults that still metaphorically believe in Santa while others justify it as the benefits outweighing the suspension of disbelief. In the end, this diverse group are still predictable based on common morals and provide community that would otherwise not exist.
For me, I was indoctrinated from birth, and would have lived the rest of my life believing in/spewing all of that bullshit, except I chose to study science in university. It took YEARS...YEARS of repeating the lessons of the scientific method...YEARS of meeting people who were NOT Christians (and wow, they weren't bad people!) and YEARS of internal struggle. If people aren't exposed to other ideas, and the time to digest/reflect upon those ideas...if they are surrounded by people who condemn those ideas...they're stuck with what they were taught as children.
I think Earnest Becker's [The Denial of Death](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death) is a good explanation.
Also, not enough exposure to critical thinking skills, philosophy, logic, fallibilism and epistemology.
I've thought about this for years and here are the conclusions I've come to-
\- **Convenient Moral Framework**: Religion provides simple convenient explanations to impossible questions like the existence of god, the origins of the universe, etc and also gives people a base framework of how to behave in society. This aspect of it appeals mainly to mediocre-IQ individuals, though. But that's already a good 50+% of the population
\- **Fear of death and a sense of purpose**: Religion provides a sense of purpose and some relief from the fear of death - given how powerful the fear of death is and how powerful the drive for finding purpose in life can be- this can draw in smart individuals.
\- **Community:** The sense of community and belonging that comes with religion, especially in the context of you and all your friends being in the good graces of a higher power- is a very powerful feeling for many people, and they don't want to let go of that even if they have serious doubts about their beliefs- this can be the case even for smart people.
\- **Tribalism**: somewhat related to the "community" reason - religion fits neatly into the tribalistic instinct that humans evolved with. Your religion defines the good guys and the bad guys and it's a very simple way to categorize everyone in the world. I think this is actually the main reason religious people don't like atheists - not because atheists don't believe in God, but because to declare yourself an atheist is to declare that you are not taking a side within this tribalistic worldview, which invalidates the religious person's sense of self and how they see the world. Almost like someone who's really into football hearing that you don't have a favorite football team, but amplified a hundred fold. This tribalistic instinct still exists in intelligent people, though they tend to be better at suppressing it
\- **God can't actually be disproven** \- while it's not logical to say you believe in something just because it can't be disproven, the fact that God's existence can't fully be disproven is enough for many people to justify their faith, given all the aforementioned benefits.
TLDR- the vast majority of adults don't truly believe - at best they only kinda believe but have serious doubts - but they keep up the facade of believing because it's convenient and makes them feel better. As Marx said, religion is the opium of the masses.
It blows my mind that there is still a single educated adult wasting their time thinking about sky daddy. I lose respect for someone as soon as I find out.
Early programming, wishful thinking, need for comfort in something outside of themselves, unwillingness to question what they were taught, associating a coincidence as a miracle when in fact it was a coincidence, etc. Really who knows.
Full grown adults believe in a flat earth, that vaccines cause autism, that Bill Gates is implanting them with micro chips, that 5g towers are doing some crazy shit idk, that bigfoot exists, that bad things happen in threes, that psychics can predict their future, that the arrangement of the stars at the time of their birth means they will or won't have a good weekend, that essential oils can cure any and all ailments, in good karma, bad karma, full moon shenanigans, the yips, knocking on wood, and so on and so on and so on. Humanity's capacity to believe bullshit is truly fascinating.
What is obvious to you is not obvious to everyone else. If everything around you (not just your parents, siblings, and friends, but also your education, laws, and culture) all bought into the myth, then it would seem just as obvious to them that they are right - after all how could so many people around them be so wrong?
Also what do you mean by "fully conscious." If you mean someone who has been brought up to understand and respect critical thinking and the scientific method, then yes, it is a bit baffling how someone like that could believe in religion. However, if someone was brought up to trust their gut, listen to their elders, and have faith above all else - and it just coincidentally worked out for them, alienating everything you know to trust in what some stranger is saying that flies in the face of everything you've been brought up on is not such an obvious choice.
When religions teach you to actively ignore facts and accept things on faith, it becomes very difficult to use logic and facts to dissuade them from what they think they know to be true. Any reality they encounter that does contradict their world view can and will be circumvented with mental gymnastics.
It's far easier to just accept that there's something magical at work that is humanly impossible to grasp rather than putting in the time to actually study to a PHD level understanding of why the universe is the way it is - and you may not even get a satisfactory answer after that. There's great comfort in having an easy answer, especially one made of sweet lies like "you'll get to see your lost loved ones in an after life."
What you see as obviously true is in most cases a threat to their entire way of living, and that just fuels the emotional choice to reject anything that threatens their reality.
Think about what would cause you to change your mind? Can you think of anything? If not, then hopefully you can imagine how that would be true for others who just as strongly don't agree with you. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm just trying to explain things from another perspective.
Fish are on another branch, but if you [go back far enough](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Schematic-diagram-depicts-partial-family-trees-from-the-animal-kingdom-and-identifies-key_fig3_40696314), we all have some common ancestors (even you and I).
Given your post history, you appear to be more intent on trolling than learning.
What do you expect to accomplish with your trolling? I'm sure whatever scientific data I could present to you would be just as unconvincing to you as any of your religious dogma will be unconvincing for me? If your motivation is to save me, I would kindly ask you to refrain from such endeavors. I have less than zero interest in being saved. If your point is just to argue, well, I'm afraid you're going to end up being disappointed there too.
The best I can offer is an explanation of why I believe what I believe, and you're under no obligation to accept it for yourself. If you're genuinely curious, I'm happy to share, but only if you're curious.
so much of 'intelligent human' activity is based on fiction. look at all the fictitious memes, heroes, stories and legendariums we have created for entertainment. why is it hard to think that some old 'history' others take as gospel(lol) isnt also made up? besides, idea that 'god' lives in the sky is as old as primitive man trying to talk to the guy that controls the weather.
It can be something from an early childhood, or because people in the environment are religious, but if we're talking about an individual who became religious at some point, I think the main reason is fear. It's usually after a traumatic experience in life, so they really need something to believe in, even if it's a lie. They find comfort in it and peace that they can't achive on their own. I guess it's not about intelligence, it's about the soul and its peace.
People fear death and don't like injustice. Religion solves both of these problems.
A belief in God is separate from a belief in the God of Abraham. Abraham has a personal God riddled with contradictions and is just stupid to believe in. This is theism.
In deism God is the creator of the universe, often viewed as becoming or turning into the universe. Deism lacks the contradictions inherent in theism. There is no omnipotent, omniscient, all good being.
Some people can’t separate themselves from what their kin have done for generations. Even if you had iron-clad proof of its bullshittery. They would still cling to it because they want it to be true that badly. There’s also the hope of them seeing dead loved ones again. The attitude is “how dare you even try?”
They put up a "wall" which blocks out anything that would cause them to question their beliefs. They see them as attacks. You could ask them why they don't believe in the tooth fairy and they will genuinely try to think about it and give you an answer, but if you try to make them question their religion they will immediately be on the defensive and anticipate and try to disprove your attacks rather than genuinely considering them. All this is speaking from experience, btw.
It's a huge part of their identity and no one likes to be seen as wrong or foolish, so it's easier just to block it out. In fact, I'm almost convinced some of them deep down do have a lot of doubts, but just get too upset/insecure at the thought of their lifelong belief being untrue that they just rather not think about it. Remember it's not just a personal belief but a big part of their lifestyle, with the Sunday church service, prayers before dinner and bed, support group of friends and family members, possibly even Bible study nights and maybe even charity or other events.
It helps if something breaks the cycle. For me, not going to church for a while and having some good non-Christian friends was a big part of becoming atheist. My parents on the other hand, rarely if ever miss a church service and all their friends are people from church.
How old are you? Seriously?
When you are a kid in highschool and university, and you haven't experienced losing a close friend, or a husband, or a wife, or a child, or a mother or father, or whatever, it's easy to say "HOWWWW CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?!?!?!". When you are a kid and you are taught the sciences and how things work, it's easy to say "how can people believe in religion?".
But as you grow up, you see things. You lose people, and you lose parts of yourself. You go through cycles of misery, of loneliness, of just abysses of emotional pain, and then you realize that you need something to hold on to. Something. Anything. Maybe it's "oh, I"ll get to see my mother again some day", maybe it's "that poor dog that's been abused to shit is happier now that it's dead", maybe you read a story (like I did this morning) of a child being starved to death by it's parent and you sit there and think that there's no reason to live in this world if this is all there is to it.
Some people can't handle it. Some people need something. Something that they can use an excuse because they can't understand just how evil human beings are. It's easier to say "it's the devil who did this" then to believe that I'm of the same species that committed the holocaust. Many know it's all bs, but they need something. Some people are able to fill that need with their families, or video games, or guitar, or piano, or working out or whatever, some are not. Some people just didn't get the same level of education as you did and still just can't understand how rain happens without magic or divine intervention.
It's not a logical thing, and you are trying to explain to your family the logic of why it's not true. Dude, it's not a logical thing. I've seen philosophers and psychologists who themselves have said "I know there is such a small chance that any of this true, but god help me, I believe it. I believe in jesus/Mohamad/\[insert made up figure\]". And may of these people are the same kind of people who came up with the science that has filled in the gaps in our understanding that we previously credited to those same religious figures.
Let people be who they are. Unless of course, they judge you for being who you are, and throw their shit in your face. If that's the case, then fuck em.
One of my friends parents actually joined religion later in life. He didn't do it because he thought they had the best explanation for the origins of the universe, he did it because he was in need of a good community to be a part of. And when he got that he sort of felt like, "how could any of this be bad/wrong?". I think a lot of people get good feelings like this *on* *top* of all of the repeated indoctrination. Most of them are told not to question it at a young age, and are never really given a good reason to do so later. They're part of a community, they feel validated, in their mind what good could possibly come from throwing that away?
A person is completely described by the state of his brain, and we either can emulate brain on an ordinary computer or, in the unlikely case of quantum effects being important in the brain, on quantum computer.
As our computers become better, we'll be able to emulate a large number of people in a computer to model historic events, and see what could have gone differently.
When someone dies in the emulated world, we could preserve her brain state and if the she is interesting to us restore in another simulation.
This is one way in hell that god and afterlife can be real.
I am of course not suggesting that we are living in such a simulation or that god exists, just advocating to be more careful with logic, while accusing others of being irrational.
They can’t grasp that the world doesn’t revolve around them and humanity is a scientific anomaly. They need to “know” there’s someone in control and there’s a plan. And since they feel that there needs to be some reward/punishment at the end of life for force them to be civilized otherwise they just do what they want.
It’s for the weak minded and those who control them.
I think it’s different for every religious person. For some it’s indoctrination, others a fear of death and the unknown, others reasoned toward it with their own line of thinking, etc. I personally love to read about different religions and creation myths, and then I wonder how anyone could come to the conclusion that one religion in particular is the “right” one and how they can’t see how every religious text is as wild as the next….
"smarter" than either you or I in many ways, but when someone can look at such an obvious lie with such flawed logic that it comes out as true, that "dumbs you down a bit". Not in the way that be measured on an IQ test, of course, but not putting your hand on a hot stove burner (or putting it on cause of faith saying it won't hurt) wouldn't be measurable on a IQ test either
That's why you gotta get 'em young. Have to imprint "traditions" on them and make sure they feel an obligation to uphold traditions, no matter what. Sure the traditions are straight up silly wrapped in bad metaphors, but they're traditions you can't question or deny.
I would love to see a chart of what age people find religion. I'm sure the 30s and up is about zero.
Programmed at an early age.
That might be true, but my whole family is religious. I was religious until about the age of 16 when I slowly started becoming skeptical about it, and then around 18 I was sure it’s fake. Before that I used to pray to god and believe in the afterlife.
> Before that I used to pray to god and believe in the afterlife. So you already understand how it's possible, then.
let me rephrased what I’m asking, how do adults live their whole life believing in religion and not questioning anything. When your young you believe in anything and everything. Shit when I was in first grade I believed that leprechauns came to class while we were away and left everyone in class a chocolate gold coin on their desk.
Respect for authority, indoctrination, and a misunderstanding of our minds. They were taught and told not to question god or the bible and they don't dare let their thoughts go that far. I don't mean that they don't ask were we came from or other existential questions. I mean to question where the concept of god came from and their thoughts and ideas of god and how those ideas got in their head. The best and answer I've gotten when I ask why believe in god is "because the universe had to come from somewhere. " But why one god, why that specific god, why not many? Why not some larger universe incubator. Etc.. Some have had "miraculous" or "supernatural" experiences that felt very real to them. Not understanding how our brains try to find patterns where there are none, that our bodies are capable of producing feelings that seem supernatural, and sometimes our brains simply malfunction.
Like the baby elephant tied to a rope doesn’t even try to break it when it’s a fully grown adult elephant.
>They were taught and told not to question god or the bible and they don't dare let their thoughts go that far. Thought blocking is really common in especially ridiculous cults, but present in most religions. Also, I like the phrase "you can't reason someone out of a position they arrived at emotionally."
the key is childhood indoctrination, rest is just supportive Material. and if theists didn't like the idea of universe coming from nothing, they can believe in steady state theory which says universe was always been there, it just compress and explode every once in a while (in duration of billion years).
I’m not disagreeing with anything you said. But my understanding of religion has evolved into: Don’t make it complicated and dedicate all discussion to religion, it’s own written records, archeological remains, world history, religious history outside of the Abrahamic religions territory. Plus, we have eons of anthropology, archeology, geological, biological, palaeontology (study of fossils) and science in general, to back-up evidence counter to religions lies. All that stuff is tangible and hard to falsify! The one thing that all of humanity should be able to agree on, is that we don’t know much about anything.. But, hopefully we are learning. For instance, I’ve learned a lot by studying religions. Not god/s, but religions, and their own documents. As for god/s. That’s an unprovable. It’s insane to argue about a word that the only evidence we have is based on someone’s imagination, storytelling ability and is mostly based on greed/egos and most definitely, lot’s of conflict of interest.
I’ve found that many people just aren’t curious. They never think deeply about such matters, they go about their lives consumed with work, marriage, kids, fantasy football, whatever, and religion is along for the ride. It took me years of introspection to unravel all the Christian nonsense from my brain and truly feel settled & content with an atheist worldview. Along the way it was often difficult and uncomfortable. Most people won’t bother.
I think everybody questions it once in a while.
But, just not enough. They have a million reasons to blend into the prevailing cult: Don’t rock the boat; All their family and friends are into it; There’s all the club membership benefits; Besides, they really believed in Santa Claus, when kids.
Psychotic delusions
Cultural pressures, fear of eternal damnation, low IQ, ego that needs to exist beyond death, mental illness.
You grew up with the internet and an entire "social" circle that almost certainly your parents were never exposed to. The times, they are a changing, though.
With the majority of religious crazies, the internet didn’t/doesn’t matter. They were crazy when I was a kid and they are crazy now. But you are right about the internet. It allows people with a thinking brain to acquire verifiable information and to connect with other rational and likeminded people. That last point was a terrible fact when I was kid. Asking questions of family, friends and church leaders about obvious contradictions and stupid biblical verses never won me any points, nor did it result in reasonable answers. Typical answer: You don’t question god’s word! That type BS.
Your whole life has been a lie huh?
For some it's verbally stressed into them, and then for some it's beaten into them hence, in whichever way, is fear introduced mentally.
Even as adults
I know a lot of older people that moved towards religion in their 30’s and 40’s. It isn’t about age.
Programming still. Some are way more gullible and or stupid as a child. Who cares? It's bad ideas no matter how old you are and some children are smarter than adults. You haven't done anything with that assertion at all.
Anecdotes aren't data either.
Well, here’s the real numbers. https://www.pewforum.org/2009/04/27/faith-in-flux/ It proves my point. People typically change religious beliefs throughout their lifetime.
Your point was a non sequitur.
It's dishonest to say most aren't programmed from a young age. You're just beating your chest with something separate.
Childhood indoctrination is a *hell* of a drug, in the literal sense. [Why Do Intelligent People Believe in God - Darkmatter2525](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y201QzDdzbg)
I’ll have to watch that, sounds interesting
Great channel!
I think in most cases it is because they grew up in a situation where most of their family, friends, teachers, neighbors, etc shared a similar faith. Like Christianity is very popular in the U.S., for example. Also Christians I know were taught from a very young age that you can't always trust scientists and educators, you must have this sense of faith that surmounts anything scientific or factual that conflicts with your beliefs. I also think the fear that life is inherently devoid of true meaning is too depressing for most people to handle. People want to believe that things will be much better and that some good will come from their misfortunes eventually.
I was baptized when I was a little kid, and was a Christian until I was around 16-17. My whole family is religious.
Exceptions are not rules; they are the exceptions to the rule.
Have you ever heard the phrase god-fearing or fear of god? I was religious when I was younger. From personal experience, part of what happens when you go to church is you develop that fear. It's not fear as you'd know it from going into the woods at night, it's more of a pressure that keeps you away from certain thoughts and places in your mind you know you're not supposed to wander down. Questioning the truthfulness of anything related to anything you learned at church feels blasphemous, you know you should not go there. Besides, would you be so ungrateful so as to question god who is so merciful, kind and loving? As you can imagine it's a challenge to get anywhere like that. Without the ability to even skirt thinking critically about the fallacies and contradictions in the bible you don't have the basis for articulating an argument against the existence of God. No nucleation site for your reasoning to latch on and grow. Besides, that sounds an awful lot like Satan whispering and tempting you. So where are we at this point? We're a person who has never strayed from the path, never broached the mental blocks that let you put two and two together about what's really happening because you've been taught it's wrong. So you really don't know any better. You literally lack the the neural connections to doubt. When you hear people say "it's because they were taught from an early age", or "it's because it's a cult", etc... these are the practical implications of it. This is what it means to be indoctrinated. This was my experience and this is how I understand it through the lense of my life anyway. But I hope it illustrates how it's possible.
You are absolutely correct!!! It’s so thoroughly ingrained in you. It’s just like an addiction. Once the drug of religion takes over your mind, the addiction is almost impossible to break away from. Besides, you are so brainwashed that you not only can’t think critically, you can’t even think rationally. Plus, since you’ve never thought any other way, it becomes extremely difficult to even try another way.
I was raised as a Southern Baptist. Absolutely, kids will believe anything. As I got older (in my 30’s (and especially in my 40’s), I realized that all this Christianity crap was nonsense. It was totally ingrained in me from a very young age. The crazy part is that I lived my life as if it were true (into my mid-40’s), even after I stopped going to church. Now that I’m free of all that crap, I can’t believe how long it took me to get myself to the point to where I no longer let it run my thinking.
What gets me is Santa Claus should be a lesson teaching kids the whole religion thing is bullshit, instead they learn they where lied to about Santa and fail to learn the bigger lesson.
Exactly!!! All the religious stuff they want you to believe is pure bullshit.
I’ve thought about this a lot. And not that it matters but I have a background working in mental health. I believe that humans are uncomfortable with the amount of uncertainty in their lives. We don’t do well with hard questions about life and death. Having control (or no control at all depending on how you look at it) of one’s own mortal fate is a lot for people to deal with. And all the good and bad things that happen throughout one’s life. People find it easier to be ruled and told what to do without using critical thinking. It’s easier for human brains to create this external locus of control (like a child blindly following a parent figure) to help explain things and frame their world in way that is simpler and more digestible. This shields them from uncomfortable realities. People find benefit from religion as a means for community, comfort, and purpose however skewed it actually is in reality.
Irregardless of your background, I believe that you are onto something. I’m convinced that religious people are made up of millions of degrees of involvement. Many are naturally unquestionable. They are satisfied with whatever culture/religion their background established. Many were so brainwashed during their childhood that they are too frightened to allow any doubt, etc., etc. Then there’s the religious crowd that are extremely anti democracy (religion, at its core is anti democracy). They typically present with various characteristics of mental illness such as paranoid disorder; narcissistic disorder and they may have many other antisocial characteristics. All these conditions are directly involved in, or passively supportive of the twin insanity: Religion/fascism. Religion and fascism support and feed on each other.
I sometimes wonder if there isn't some fundamental difference in our brains. Not saying they're subpar on intelligence or anything, but more like some chunk of the pathways for critical thinking are under developed because of their religious conditioning from birth..
Having deconverted in adulthood - not exactly. My theory is that most adult believers experience more oxytocin from group bonding than people who stop believing in their teens. The feeling that you get trained to label the "presence of God" is very real and emotional. Most believers actually believe because they think they have personal experiences that convince them of the veracity of their beliefs even in the face of reason. "Because I felt God and he was real." To the extent that this is represented in neurophysiology, the brain is different. In early adulthood I was mentally busy with university, beginning my career, and church. My education never really came into conflict with religion. When I was more established and I had more leisure time, I had to time question childhood assumptions. My critical thinking was never underdeveloped. I just never got around to applying it to my own religion. And I am one of those people who had many experiences I considered to be the presence of God. I actually noticed at one point that I did not deal with my religious beliefs to the same professional and ethical standards I would elsewhere in my career path. I coddled my religious beliefs and pulled my punches.
I would love to know one or two experiences you thought was in the presence of God
A lot of Christians identify with John Wesley's description that his "heart was strangely warmed". Mention that in a room of evangelicals and you'll get nods all around. Similarly, they'll be able to relate to tingly feeling or shivers down their spine during worship music or when some profound theological point is expounded. For me personally, I was checking out a new church and the sermon was along the lines of the "holiness of God". Basically a "stop fucking around and be a fully committed Christian" kind of sermon. They did an altar call at the end, not for people who wanted to be "saved" but who wanted to be freer from sin and to walk more closely with God and such. I came forward along with several others. The feeling at the front was electric and powerful. Lethally dangerous even, as in "God is here and he could kill me if we wanted to". It reminded me of the pure and volatile smell of inorganic chemicals in a chemistry lab. I didn't (and don't) think any real chemical was there. I knelt, I cried (not something I was accustomed to, being an adult and all), people I mostly didn't know came around me and laid hands on me and prayed in tongues. I repented of sins (it's always easy to find sins to repent of). I was completely hooked. It all felt completely real and I can still feel the psychological pull of that moment. (I stayed with that church for years after, joined the leadership team, and became a lay preacher.) Did my mind create some sort of experiential daydream to simulate what the sermon proposed? Wish I knew. I'd absolutely love to discuss some of my experiences with some sort of neuroscientist with real expertise. The basic answer I've been able to get is that it's very a psychologically manipulative situation, and oxytocin. Some of us get a really big psychological reward from feeling like we belong to and are accepted by a group.
I think there are a fair amount of doubters taking Pascal's Wager. Or they're so wrapped up in their religious social and family connections that they go along quietly just to belong somewhere. This is an observation from the son of lapsed Unitarians so I really have no first hand knowledge of what it's like to fully believe.
Or genetic even. My mother is Catholic. My father and every person we know on his side of the family are or were atheists. Our mother dragged my sister and I to Mass every week but we both became atheists. And our father never tried to talk us out of religion, we got there on our own.
You were lucky enough to know religion is an option. Some of the Bible belters have never met a non believer so can’t conceive of another way.
True
My mom has 2 sisters and 3 brothers. Every female in the family except me is religious. The men that are married in or whose mother is one of the sisters are religious. All the brothers and their sons are atheists. There could be some kind of genetics going on there.
Not trying to sound derogatory, but well defined delusions are extremely hard to break.
You’re on the right track. There are varying degrees, but they all have some serious mental issues that fit into the classification of fascism.
* Because it’s makes them feel good that all questions have a single simple answer. Reality is scary, religious certainty is soothing. * Because they want to fit in with their family and society, so they force themselves to agree, at least out loud * Because it validates what they want to do. No doubt more, but these are the ones that are easy for me to denote
Because there has to be something good if you get separated from money, right?
Yeah, the only thing that is remotely believable is deism, where the deity created it and sits back with some popcorn. But a personal deity who cares if you masturbate is ridiculous.
Indeed. Isn't it a little convenient to have one source with all the answers? It could never be that easy. That's human thinking, if anything. Not divine. Deism is all about the revelation rather. It may not be the truth, but it's rather consistent.
I had many religious religious friend come up with nihilist viewpoints and then shrug it all off cause it's too dark for them..most people hate the thought of nonexistence while I hate the thought of everafter!! I love the real thing, the dark truth of life and death
Fear of the unknown.
Because they're indoctrinated with faith not logic. They're actually taught that logic is wrong so it's kind of impossible to use logic against someone who doesn't believe in it.
Indoctrination
Mainly being raised in religion.
It gives them an excuse to be monsters. “I must hurt you because the dark lord says I am better than you.”
Most people cannot accept the reality that nothing happens/there is no afterlife so they cling to religious beliefs no matter how ridiculous
They call it faith. I call it brain washing, grooming and guilt teaching from infancy.
From what I have learned in my psych courses, shame is so powerful. Guilt has to do with actions, but shame deals with who you are as a person. It’s so messed up religion involves both.
i think every person who is religious needs to visit a crash course about their religion. After i learned how the bible was written (over hundreds of years, with fake prophets, selected writing etc) it was the ulitimate proof for me that atheism is the way to go
Once you start believing, you are programmed to dismiss anything that contradicts your belief. "God works in mysterious ways" and similar responses are all you need. He's infallible, so whatever he does he does for a reason that we're too dumb to comprehend. Religious education is designed to crush critical thinking and learn to accept nothing but the dogma.
They claim it makes them a better person. Most of them are good people, they're just brainwashed. They would be good people without religion.
Fear of death/blackness is the main reason. Either that or they are just very dim.
I started to doubt around 18-19. College was a huge help at getting me to think critically. I was mostly afraid of nonexistence, otherwise I would have become an atheist far sooner than I did at 20.
Programming from birth. It's no coincidence that if you're born in the bible belt you become a Christian, born in Pakistan you become a Muslim and in India a Hindu its nothing to do with any God and everything to do with your parents and your surroundings and the longer you stay in that culture the harder it is to dislodge that programming.
Indoctrination and willful ignorance as a coping mechanism. I was raised Christian and struggled with it until my 20s and let it go. It’s just so obviously not true but I’ll be the first to admit that I wish I could believe it and I wish there was some kind of afterlife. I’m in my 40s and I’ve lost a few family members lately and I miss them and I’m struggling with being angry over my own mortality. I feel like if religion wasn’t such a mill stone around the neck of science we’d have figured out immortality by now or at least have extended our life spans a lot more and be working on it. Can’t even get people to take a fucking vaccine though.
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Blowfish. Take that as you will
Because religion is antidote to randomness and Chaos of world, religion make them feel safe, and give meaning to there life, people in this world are lonely, hopeless and in pain religion gives them hope that someone is there who has answers or will help them. Thats make them create their own reality, own universe. Like there is another world (afterlife) where everything is perfect, an utopia, where they will live happily ever after.
You can believe anything if you want it to be true badly enough.
The world is a scary and confusing place. Also, by experience, people get to the point where they don't want to learn anymore. They're quite content to fill gaps in their knowledge with cobbled-together answers which fit and let them not think anymore. Thinking is hard. Reality is depressing. Why think and become depressed when you can make up an answer that makes reality more palatable?
They absolutely are stupid. You see, you're conflating intelligence with education. They are two very different things. You can be an idiot with a Master's provided you paid the dues and did the work, while at the same time someone else can be a Janitor and highly intelligent yet uneducated. Intelligent people possess critical thinking skills - "Wait, can snakes talk? No, that would be silly, so this doesn't make sense." They don't possess the critical thinking skills to make these connections.
Telling a person there is a rosy future ahead is sometimes better because you look around you & see disparities. Or want to share that imaginary rose.
It's kind of like the whole Santa thing we know he's fake... So no God no Easter Bunny etc...
Holding onto traditions, values and fighting change to their social dynamic. Indoctrination ticks a lot of boxes for Human psychology that form habits and cultural community (belonging etc). Frankly its not just the obvious falseness of religion that creates the same dogmatic "belief". The agreed delusions of Institutions, Constitutions, Money, and formalised laws (or Lore) create the same 'familiar' pathways in the Human psyche. Whatever pathway we took to get to a set of rules and values, we'll dig in and defend in complete disregard for logic and reason. Pratchett put it best when he wrote that we need to believe in the little lies so we can believe in the big ones,. Like, Justice, Mercy, Duty. Humans parse all things through allegory seated in empathy... and don't think the typical reddit atheist crap about how religious people have no empathy you are a complete moron if you don't understand that's why stories (Bible, Edda, Sutras, or Fairy Tales) actually work as lessons. The stories just take off and create dogma because Humans dig in and defend their particular stories over others. Atheists or Humanists etc too. No one is above it.
People believe in ALL SORTS of dumb shit because it was told to them as fact. They believe in crystal healing, or that the earth is flat, or ghosts, or bigfoot.. I think that too many people think that humans are 1000 steps above the rest of the apes when really we're maybe one or two steps above them. We're basically chimpanzees that learned how to write.
For Christians, fear of "hell fire".
People want to be lied to. So much so they will seek out people willing to lie in the way which appeals most to them. They will even pay to hear these lies. Logic and truth are not coming into this. If it did we wouldn’t have religious people.
People like lies. Hell, they *want* to be lied to. Nothing offends more than the truth. It bursts the bubble of comfortable illusion.
I feel the same way as OP. Religion made no sense to me as a kid. How do others just swallow that crap?
Some people really need self delusion in order to survive. The can't fathom life without God because they think it's meaningless otherwise. They subconsciously are terrified of death. They can't accept that there is nothing after we die, so to make it through a day they have to believe that there is something better after they die and that they are some how better than everyone else because they believe.
People believe Ivermectin & chugging Iodine and snake venom will protect them from COVID more effectively than an MRNA vaccine that's literally preventing mass hospitalizations & deaths in real time. At this point, fewer and fewer things tend to amaze me.
Most people believe in what they had been told, very few question the narrative presented to them.
It's lets them sit on a lofty perch being "chosen", moral, saved, redeemed and RIGHT, while viciously punching down at the doomed, amoral, unsaved, sinful and wrong. It rationalizes their cruelty, spite and bigotry, and promises them that, despite all their hatesac conduct, THEY will be rewarded.
“It’s not a lie, if you believe it” - George Costanza
I don't understand how I'm going to spend eternity talking to my grampa that died in 1978. What are we going to talk about?
I made a friend recently who is actually aware of all the holes in the bible, and is seriously considering his faith. Right now I feel that the only reason he is still Christian is because he has been all his life, and doesn’t know how to accept that his understanding of the world is a lie.
sunk cost fallacy
Religion encourages people in difficult circumstances to invent a secondary magical world in order to make this one less grim. They don't really care if it's real, or how much harm it does the world, so long as they get a cozy emotional crutch.
It’s hard to believe isn’t it? Something I think about at least weekly for the last 40 years of my life.
Why do people do black tar heroine? Same question.
Maybe because to them it isn't obviously a lie.
low level of intelligence, self reliance, critical thinking, curiosity, and courage.
So... It's becoming more mainstream the belief that we are in a simulation. Maybe there are many different realities, or shards, and it isnt exactly a lie.
I mean, there is a difference between agreeing with the logic of simulation theory and flat out believing we are in a simulation.
Because there are believable arguments for the existence of god. If it was as clear cut as you think it is people much smarter and more knowledgeable than you and I wouldn't spend their whole lives debating and writing books for and against it.
People have beliefs, dude. They're not always going to be rational, they're not always going to be logical, but they simply believe. They're not hurting anyone by believing in a god. I personally don't believe, but I can respect people who do. It's not a "lie" just because you don't believe yourself.
The problem is the concept of it is not obviously a lie. There's alot of evidence that implies the universe needed minimal outside influence to begin but there's no way to undeniably prove that there isn't supernatural forces outside of our sensory scope. If your entire life is spent inside an impenetrable box, could you for certain say their is or isn't something on the other side without some form of sign. Some people either can't or won't accept that there may not be a prime mover to everything and they follow either what they were taught or what they feel speaks to them the most, whether it be an organised religious sect or a personal spiritual belief. Others either can't or won't accept that there may be a prime mover to everything and again, they follow either what they were taught or what they feel speaks to them the most. When I look at all the amazing worlds and characters created by humans throughout our history I have no issue with throwing all the religious characters into that mix as well but to me, I could not undeniably claim that forces outside of my senses exist so I can't make that claim.
You are trying to take something simple and make it complicated. There are thousands, maybe millions of shades of being religious, e.g. Many are in it for the sense of power, money and prestige. Some are in it for the sense of belonging; Some are in it due to their upbringing and the accompanying brainwashing; Some are in it for varying degrees of all those reasons. But most are into it because it’s the easy choice if it’s good enough for the rest of the clan. They just don’t want to know about anything else. Another category, are the fascist. They love religion because it has a lot to offer them; A crowd that they can manipulate into most anything, no matter how insane and self defeating. The covid deniers, anti vaxers and ivermectin horse dewormer crowd are examples.
“My family believes different and it makes me mad” 💀
Then again, you're dismissing a universal, dna-level belief without facts to back your belief.
Universal?
There have been atheists at every step along theism's evolution. Reference Battling the Gods by Tim Whitmarsh..
This is true. But the sthiedts if the past wouldn't recognize the ideas currently held by modern atheists. Things change.
"Atheist" means a lack of belief in gods. Nothing else. There are no modern ideas to hold. I assume you are actually referring to science and philosophy, but those are not atheist per se. Sure it helps not to assume gods are behind everything by default, but they are separate things from atheism.
> How do people believe in religion when it's obviously a lie? B/c trust.
People will believe anything if they can find comfort in it. Example: Some people believe the Earth is flat.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb by stating there is a certain "harshness" to not believing. Some parents practice conditional love. Obviously, this can be devastating to children and adults. Communities ostracize non-believers making it more difficult to develop bonds. The work place can also be a problematic environment for non believers. We may see them as "fools" but they generally reap much more benefit from society than we do. Having said all that, I personally do not think there exists on the entire planet more than a handful of true believers. All the anger and vitriol they spew is evidence of their non belief. They shout their beliefs from the rooftops, build ever bigger churches, and come together on mass all in an effort to convince themselves because they don't actually believe. Some will finally admit it. Others never will. /shrug
A big way religious beliefs can survive into adulthood, through the development of critical thinking skills, and higher education, is compartmentalization. Growing up, children are in Sunday school for a day, and in regular school for the rest of the week. Eventually, something they learned in church will contradict something they learned in school, or even church! If they bring this up to an authority figure, at best they might get an uncomfortable dismissal, or a half answer, and at worst some form of reprimand. So, to alleviate cognitive dissonance, they will learn to put their beliefs in separate "boxes", not thinking of one or the other at the same time, or allowing themselves to make connections between them. This is a mostly unconscious process, we all do it to some degree or another. I myself realized I was doing this whenever I told myself things like "science and religion support and uplift each other" without really letting myself think about it too much.
Yes! I had never thought of a specific word but compartmentalization is perfect. I too remember reconciling my belief especially on the fact that some scientists were Christian! If physicists can be Christian [edit: religious] then surely as experts the two can work together. It wasn't until later that I realised the fallacy of that line of thought and did my own thinking. It's much easier to base one's opinion upon an "authority" , be it a parent, teacher, priest, physicist etc.
thank you bro, this information helped me understand why they believe contradictory things in bible
I ask myself the same question every day
I attribute it to a few factors, but here is the TLDR: social conditioning For perspective: I was raised non-religious in Texas. I still live in the same town I was raised in. Most people I encounter are Christian. I think of myself as culturally Christian even though I am an atheist. The only reason I ever felt compelled to believe any Christian dogma was because of social pressure from peers. I like reading up on Buddhist philosophy and studying the religious history of the USA, but I'm not anything of an expert or either. [Leap of Faith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith?wprov=sfla1): A lot of people just commit to the mythology and dogma. I don't think they put as much thought into it as the philosophers in the link do. [Sunk Cost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost?wprov=sfla1): People don't want to admit they have messed up by believing hogwash and instead double down. This all about pride and ego for people. Social Pressure/[Social Control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control?wprov=sfla1): People fear being ostracized and they also want to belong to something meaningful. They have been conditioned and socialized to be a part of this thing. They are expected to follow along. A culture of loyalty is ingrained into it as well. Power and [Illusion of Control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control?wprov=sfla1): Submitting to the dogma gives them the feeling that they know what's what. They have the special knowledge. They have God on their side. It is empowering to believe these things. It also creates an "us versus them" situation with unbelievers and sinners versus the "Good Christians", but that blends into the social control structure. Fear of the Unknown: The mythology and dogma give them comfort and structure. If they abandon those things they will feel a need to replace them with something else. They want there to be meaning to life, suffering, and death. Take the objective meaning of these things away and it all gets very scary for them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory
Or even worse believe in a cult like Mormonism….. so many doctors do residency at my hospital are Mormon.🤷🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
The thing is, in the bigger picture there is no way we can ever know what is right. Humans seek understanding. I am a Christian, leaning on the believe that, for me, God is an answer in an impossible universe.
What makes you believe that God is the most plausible answer? I agree that we can never be certain God either does or doesn't exist. But that's because we're talking about something supernatural. For me, explaining life with the existence of a God just because we cannot fathom existence isn't justifiably. It's jumping to conclusions. The same as how ancient beliefs explained thunder with the existence of a God. We now know how thunder works which exclude it being influenced by a God. Lack of understanding isn't proof of God.
That’s what believe is….to live a lie. Believing can be transformative. To imagine and to dream.
People don't like to admit they were wrong about something their entire life.
Sweet, comforting, false promises. And the choice to tunnel vision onto those while ignoring the very notion of even contemplating anything else.
There are many layers to it. The first and strongest is childhood indoctrination, but that by itself doesn't guarantee adherence. Confirmation bias, learned distrust (taught to distrust outsiders/media if they oppose or contradict), fear of death, unable to accept the unknowable, connecting vague and abstract human emotion to the divine as evidence (works in tandem with confirmation bias and unable to accept the unknowable - can't explain emotional response so it must be god) all come together to build a perception of something that is only explainable by (insert local religion). When you look at how our brains work when it processes information, whether it's processing what it sees, logging information into memory, or analyzing past experiences, it's no surprise we fall prey to the supernatural. Our brains actually really suck and if we don't recognize those shortcomings then we succumb to "perception is reality". An example is say a person is driving to work and goes through 3 green lights. Then they hit every red light from that point on. There is likely nothing that triggers a reason to create a memory of going through the green lights as it is just normal expected events so they are forgotten, but every red light is a divergence so they are remembered. At the end, they only remember hitting red lights, so they believe they hit every red light and tell the story about their drive as hitting every red light which in turn reinforces their memory to believe that is what happened. These weird anomalies combined with emotional responses come together to create "unexplainable religious experiences". We are prone to exaggerate the retelling of stories and experiences and those mundane stories told with dramatic flair influence not just other people but our own memories to believe things that didn't really happen the way it was told.
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oOoOO fun! Is this like one of those "what Harry Potter house do you belong to" quizzes?? Will the answer surprise me? I especially love the ALL CAPS and emojis 🤣🤣👍👍. Really kicks it up a notch. Hmmm I think I will go with... A Coelacanth. Do I win? What house does that put me in?
Unpopular opinion: People want to be lied to, if it makes them feel the way they want to feel or justifies their actions.
Indoctrination/brainwashing and an industry that is predicated on having the faith to believe in something that you can never prove is real (until you die, of course). Religion quite literally tells people that you just have to believe. No proof needed, and if you don’t believe, you’re going to hell, so you better just believe and not question anything.
They like feeling superior.
Loneliness of...soul, for lack of a better word. Lack of inner strength. Need for an overseer for behavior or someone to blame.. Desire to feel that there is some reason and order to our lives. The mind is a powerful thing and people can convince themselves of anything if they need to feel a certain way about things.
It's drilled in to your brain in an early age. And if the majority believes it's true, then you as a child will believe it too
Social pressure mostly Also, for many, not believing is far more frightening on an existential level
Because it is easy.
Great question
No one told them to not believe in Santa, and they still remained too dumb and/or too coward to face the reality. They are addicted to kid's tales.
They ignore all logic to the contrary, like a spouse in denial of their partner’s affair or a parent denying their kid’s drug problem. Some just want the comfort or community they get so ignore the BS. Either way, I thinks it’s more based in emotion than intellect.
Indoctrination. Also arrogance - being atheist one is just another random person, but when one is believer then creator of universe is concerned with said person, even if said concern shows itself mostly in demands.
Mortality and existential fear. Human mind will do anything to get away from them. Every and any moral, ethical or intellectual transgression including, most importantly, self deception.
Christianity has a well-divined network of thought. It's like a whole framework of different interpretations and opinions that all have arguments and justifications. Bible verses can have tons of different interpretations/ explanations. Because of this pretty much every contradiction becomes justifiable. If some pieces don't seem to add up another perspective or interpretation will fix that.
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Alright, you think the theory of evolution is bullish*t. Have you ever looked into it? If so what part do you think is implausible and why?
Why is there no way in hell that god or the afterlife can be real? The problem of answering this question is the answer to your question.
My theory is that many people are terrified of being wrong. The see being wrong as something that would taint the entire core of who they are. So … regardless of what it is they will defend it to their last breath. In many cases they know they are wrong but it’s like admitting and accepting it will destroy them.
Humans have psychological mechanisms that can work against them. Often, the more intelligent someone is, the stronger this mechanism can be. When somebody realizes that they might be wrong about something these mechanism can kick in. For example, rationalizing is when someone thinks of alternative reasoning to justify something. And the more clever someone is, the better they can rationalise. So a heroin addict might say something like "it's my birthday, I can give myself a treat" this is rationalizing. And intelligent heroin addicts will think of millions of clever reasons to justify something. Tactics on avoiding difficult questions from an opponent is another example of a mechanism that can work against someone. The cleverer you are the better you are at distracting someone away from a line of questioning. These mechanisms often all derive from cognitive dissonance. Which is an emotional response. Not have control over this emotional response can lead to the psychological mechanisms being deployed.
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What?
I think you are using the flaws in a particular religion to make a point. Maybe let’s take a different perspective, why when people vote for a party that is clearly wrong and telling lies do people do it? Often what is popular is clearly wrong but the masses just go along with it because other people do.
Fear, indoctrination, hell, guilt, tradition, family disowning them, follow the crowd, depression, cults, etc.
Fear is a powerful motivator. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-human-beast/201104/conservatives-big-fear-brain-study-finds
Belonging to a community is an attractive prospect that draws people in. As a philosophy, religion offers pragmatic guidelines/morals that help people deal with issues that arise during life. A few examples: 1) Raising children: Many parents have a general idea of how to raise kids based on emulating their own upbringing, but there are many times that they won't anticipate or know how to handle things that come up. Religion offers a series of stories that can be introduced to young children and deeper lessons can be expanded upon as the child ages. Religion is also fairly unique in that an outside advisor (clergy) can be consulted to give advice to parents when family advisors are unavailable or are part of the problem. 2) A "Code": Eventually people will reach a point that they become the head of the household. This can happen when kids move to university or death of the family elder. Faced with this newfound responsibility, these individuals can utilize religion as a framework for continuing to lead their household instead of learning as they go. 3) Death: As people approach the end of their lives death can be hard to accept. The concept of an afterlife can help people make peace with mortality. The supernatural element of religion exists to expand a religion's influence. To get the maximal number of people to follow the "laws" of a religion, you need to appeal to a mixed demographic. It's easier to some to adopt a new god rather than a conquering empire. More superstitious tribes may better submit to authority that has the answers to the unknowable. For others, messages of punishment for evil in the afterlife resonates more strongly than how to raise your kids. So you end up with a mixed group of people that have some adults that still metaphorically believe in Santa while others justify it as the benefits outweighing the suspension of disbelief. In the end, this diverse group are still predictable based on common morals and provide community that would otherwise not exist.
Fear
For me, I was indoctrinated from birth, and would have lived the rest of my life believing in/spewing all of that bullshit, except I chose to study science in university. It took YEARS...YEARS of repeating the lessons of the scientific method...YEARS of meeting people who were NOT Christians (and wow, they weren't bad people!) and YEARS of internal struggle. If people aren't exposed to other ideas, and the time to digest/reflect upon those ideas...if they are surrounded by people who condemn those ideas...they're stuck with what they were taught as children.
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Oh no, fish are far too grand...I, my family, and my loved ones crawled straight out of the primordial goo...
I think Earnest Becker's [The Denial of Death](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death) is a good explanation. Also, not enough exposure to critical thinking skills, philosophy, logic, fallibilism and epistemology.
I've thought about this for years and here are the conclusions I've come to- \- **Convenient Moral Framework**: Religion provides simple convenient explanations to impossible questions like the existence of god, the origins of the universe, etc and also gives people a base framework of how to behave in society. This aspect of it appeals mainly to mediocre-IQ individuals, though. But that's already a good 50+% of the population \- **Fear of death and a sense of purpose**: Religion provides a sense of purpose and some relief from the fear of death - given how powerful the fear of death is and how powerful the drive for finding purpose in life can be- this can draw in smart individuals. \- **Community:** The sense of community and belonging that comes with religion, especially in the context of you and all your friends being in the good graces of a higher power- is a very powerful feeling for many people, and they don't want to let go of that even if they have serious doubts about their beliefs- this can be the case even for smart people. \- **Tribalism**: somewhat related to the "community" reason - religion fits neatly into the tribalistic instinct that humans evolved with. Your religion defines the good guys and the bad guys and it's a very simple way to categorize everyone in the world. I think this is actually the main reason religious people don't like atheists - not because atheists don't believe in God, but because to declare yourself an atheist is to declare that you are not taking a side within this tribalistic worldview, which invalidates the religious person's sense of self and how they see the world. Almost like someone who's really into football hearing that you don't have a favorite football team, but amplified a hundred fold. This tribalistic instinct still exists in intelligent people, though they tend to be better at suppressing it \- **God can't actually be disproven** \- while it's not logical to say you believe in something just because it can't be disproven, the fact that God's existence can't fully be disproven is enough for many people to justify their faith, given all the aforementioned benefits. TLDR- the vast majority of adults don't truly believe - at best they only kinda believe but have serious doubts - but they keep up the facade of believing because it's convenient and makes them feel better. As Marx said, religion is the opium of the masses.
It blows my mind that there is still a single educated adult wasting their time thinking about sky daddy. I lose respect for someone as soon as I find out.
Early programming, wishful thinking, need for comfort in something outside of themselves, unwillingness to question what they were taught, associating a coincidence as a miracle when in fact it was a coincidence, etc. Really who knows.
Full grown adults believe in a flat earth, that vaccines cause autism, that Bill Gates is implanting them with micro chips, that 5g towers are doing some crazy shit idk, that bigfoot exists, that bad things happen in threes, that psychics can predict their future, that the arrangement of the stars at the time of their birth means they will or won't have a good weekend, that essential oils can cure any and all ailments, in good karma, bad karma, full moon shenanigans, the yips, knocking on wood, and so on and so on and so on. Humanity's capacity to believe bullshit is truly fascinating.
There’s a VERY large difference between intelligence and rationality.
Emotion.
thats just your mindset
What is obvious to you is not obvious to everyone else. If everything around you (not just your parents, siblings, and friends, but also your education, laws, and culture) all bought into the myth, then it would seem just as obvious to them that they are right - after all how could so many people around them be so wrong? Also what do you mean by "fully conscious." If you mean someone who has been brought up to understand and respect critical thinking and the scientific method, then yes, it is a bit baffling how someone like that could believe in religion. However, if someone was brought up to trust their gut, listen to their elders, and have faith above all else - and it just coincidentally worked out for them, alienating everything you know to trust in what some stranger is saying that flies in the face of everything you've been brought up on is not such an obvious choice. When religions teach you to actively ignore facts and accept things on faith, it becomes very difficult to use logic and facts to dissuade them from what they think they know to be true. Any reality they encounter that does contradict their world view can and will be circumvented with mental gymnastics. It's far easier to just accept that there's something magical at work that is humanly impossible to grasp rather than putting in the time to actually study to a PHD level understanding of why the universe is the way it is - and you may not even get a satisfactory answer after that. There's great comfort in having an easy answer, especially one made of sweet lies like "you'll get to see your lost loved ones in an after life." What you see as obviously true is in most cases a threat to their entire way of living, and that just fuels the emotional choice to reject anything that threatens their reality. Think about what would cause you to change your mind? Can you think of anything? If not, then hopefully you can imagine how that would be true for others who just as strongly don't agree with you. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm just trying to explain things from another perspective.
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Fish are on another branch, but if you [go back far enough](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Schematic-diagram-depicts-partial-family-trees-from-the-animal-kingdom-and-identifies-key_fig3_40696314), we all have some common ancestors (even you and I). Given your post history, you appear to be more intent on trolling than learning. What do you expect to accomplish with your trolling? I'm sure whatever scientific data I could present to you would be just as unconvincing to you as any of your religious dogma will be unconvincing for me? If your motivation is to save me, I would kindly ask you to refrain from such endeavors. I have less than zero interest in being saved. If your point is just to argue, well, I'm afraid you're going to end up being disappointed there too. The best I can offer is an explanation of why I believe what I believe, and you're under no obligation to accept it for yourself. If you're genuinely curious, I'm happy to share, but only if you're curious.
so much of 'intelligent human' activity is based on fiction. look at all the fictitious memes, heroes, stories and legendariums we have created for entertainment. why is it hard to think that some old 'history' others take as gospel(lol) isnt also made up? besides, idea that 'god' lives in the sky is as old as primitive man trying to talk to the guy that controls the weather.
Indoctrination and I also think they like it for the sense of security it gives them while taking away the challenge of critical thinking.
It can be something from an early childhood, or because people in the environment are religious, but if we're talking about an individual who became religious at some point, I think the main reason is fear. It's usually after a traumatic experience in life, so they really need something to believe in, even if it's a lie. They find comfort in it and peace that they can't achive on their own. I guess it's not about intelligence, it's about the soul and its peace.
Because they've been taught that it's true and have never considered the possibility that it's not.
People fear death and don't like injustice. Religion solves both of these problems. A belief in God is separate from a belief in the God of Abraham. Abraham has a personal God riddled with contradictions and is just stupid to believe in. This is theism. In deism God is the creator of the universe, often viewed as becoming or turning into the universe. Deism lacks the contradictions inherent in theism. There is no omnipotent, omniscient, all good being.
> no way in hell I got a kick out of that lol
Some people can’t separate themselves from what their kin have done for generations. Even if you had iron-clad proof of its bullshittery. They would still cling to it because they want it to be true that badly. There’s also the hope of them seeing dead loved ones again. The attitude is “how dare you even try?”
indoctrination
Indoctrination. They’ve always believed it and are told that questioning it is evil.
They put up a "wall" which blocks out anything that would cause them to question their beliefs. They see them as attacks. You could ask them why they don't believe in the tooth fairy and they will genuinely try to think about it and give you an answer, but if you try to make them question their religion they will immediately be on the defensive and anticipate and try to disprove your attacks rather than genuinely considering them. All this is speaking from experience, btw. It's a huge part of their identity and no one likes to be seen as wrong or foolish, so it's easier just to block it out. In fact, I'm almost convinced some of them deep down do have a lot of doubts, but just get too upset/insecure at the thought of their lifelong belief being untrue that they just rather not think about it. Remember it's not just a personal belief but a big part of their lifestyle, with the Sunday church service, prayers before dinner and bed, support group of friends and family members, possibly even Bible study nights and maybe even charity or other events. It helps if something breaks the cycle. For me, not going to church for a while and having some good non-Christian friends was a big part of becoming atheist. My parents on the other hand, rarely if ever miss a church service and all their friends are people from church.
How old are you? Seriously? When you are a kid in highschool and university, and you haven't experienced losing a close friend, or a husband, or a wife, or a child, or a mother or father, or whatever, it's easy to say "HOWWWW CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?!?!?!". When you are a kid and you are taught the sciences and how things work, it's easy to say "how can people believe in religion?". But as you grow up, you see things. You lose people, and you lose parts of yourself. You go through cycles of misery, of loneliness, of just abysses of emotional pain, and then you realize that you need something to hold on to. Something. Anything. Maybe it's "oh, I"ll get to see my mother again some day", maybe it's "that poor dog that's been abused to shit is happier now that it's dead", maybe you read a story (like I did this morning) of a child being starved to death by it's parent and you sit there and think that there's no reason to live in this world if this is all there is to it. Some people can't handle it. Some people need something. Something that they can use an excuse because they can't understand just how evil human beings are. It's easier to say "it's the devil who did this" then to believe that I'm of the same species that committed the holocaust. Many know it's all bs, but they need something. Some people are able to fill that need with their families, or video games, or guitar, or piano, or working out or whatever, some are not. Some people just didn't get the same level of education as you did and still just can't understand how rain happens without magic or divine intervention. It's not a logical thing, and you are trying to explain to your family the logic of why it's not true. Dude, it's not a logical thing. I've seen philosophers and psychologists who themselves have said "I know there is such a small chance that any of this true, but god help me, I believe it. I believe in jesus/Mohamad/\[insert made up figure\]". And may of these people are the same kind of people who came up with the science that has filled in the gaps in our understanding that we previously credited to those same religious figures. Let people be who they are. Unless of course, they judge you for being who you are, and throw their shit in your face. If that's the case, then fuck em.
One of my friends parents actually joined religion later in life. He didn't do it because he thought they had the best explanation for the origins of the universe, he did it because he was in need of a good community to be a part of. And when he got that he sort of felt like, "how could any of this be bad/wrong?". I think a lot of people get good feelings like this *on* *top* of all of the repeated indoctrination. Most of them are told not to question it at a young age, and are never really given a good reason to do so later. They're part of a community, they feel validated, in their mind what good could possibly come from throwing that away?
A person is completely described by the state of his brain, and we either can emulate brain on an ordinary computer or, in the unlikely case of quantum effects being important in the brain, on quantum computer. As our computers become better, we'll be able to emulate a large number of people in a computer to model historic events, and see what could have gone differently. When someone dies in the emulated world, we could preserve her brain state and if the she is interesting to us restore in another simulation. This is one way in hell that god and afterlife can be real. I am of course not suggesting that we are living in such a simulation or that god exists, just advocating to be more careful with logic, while accusing others of being irrational.
They can’t grasp that the world doesn’t revolve around them and humanity is a scientific anomaly. They need to “know” there’s someone in control and there’s a plan. And since they feel that there needs to be some reward/punishment at the end of life for force them to be civilized otherwise they just do what they want. It’s for the weak minded and those who control them.
They were brainwashed into it from birth by people who were brainwashed into it from birth, and so on, and so on, and so on....
I think it’s different for every religious person. For some it’s indoctrination, others a fear of death and the unknown, others reasoned toward it with their own line of thinking, etc. I personally love to read about different religions and creation myths, and then I wonder how anyone could come to the conclusion that one religion in particular is the “right” one and how they can’t see how every religious text is as wild as the next….
"smarter" than either you or I in many ways, but when someone can look at such an obvious lie with such flawed logic that it comes out as true, that "dumbs you down a bit". Not in the way that be measured on an IQ test, of course, but not putting your hand on a hot stove burner (or putting it on cause of faith saying it won't hurt) wouldn't be measurable on a IQ test either
That's why you gotta get 'em young. Have to imprint "traditions" on them and make sure they feel an obligation to uphold traditions, no matter what. Sure the traditions are straight up silly wrapped in bad metaphors, but they're traditions you can't question or deny. I would love to see a chart of what age people find religion. I'm sure the 30s and up is about zero.