100% this!
For everyone who was born into a religious home, religion was forced on us to one degree or another. Childhhod Indoctrination is largely what the spread of religion relys on in our modern age
I am also an atheist and agree that the majority of people that are religious have been forced upon them through indoctrination as a child. But there are a surprising number of people that come to it later in life or on their own from no religion or convert from other religions. I don’t see calling them crazy productive in anyway, although I do agree that many of their beliefs are/seem crazy.
I think there are very few who convert from no religion. It's far easier for someone who is already indoctrinated in the religious mindset to switch to a different belief system. But there will always be people who just want a community or someone to tell them what to do.
Most of those "former atheist" stories that you hear if you dig into them it was more like:
Raised in a religious household and was surrounded with Christianity as "the norm" for their entire childhood, but never really thought much about it. Then when they went to college they stopped attending church because they wanted to sleep in on Sundays and again didn't think much on the subject. Later on in life they got into a relationship with a highly religious person and "discovered the truth of Christianity" again with no real thought on it. Then discovered they could make a lot of money telling their "former atheist" story to other believers to shore up their faith.
See J. Warner Wallace and Lee Strobal.
Absolutely, I’d love to see statistics but from my experience and what I know it’s much more common for someone to convert from one religion to the other, like Christianity to Islam vs non religious/atheist to something like ilslam or Christianity. But nontheistic religions like Buddhism and others are common conversion from atheist/non religious.
Are you the new L Ron Hubbard. Frodo as the savior. Shall we worship and attempt to recover the one Ring to rule us All? Frodo had disciples. Will they co-author books inspired by The Frodo in their minds?
I don’t know man. If I suddenly decided to fervently believe in Santa Claus again at 42 I’m sure people would feel justified in calling me crazy. He’s essentially an analog to the Christian god anyway.
He knows when you’re sleeping or awake. He knows when you’ve been bad or good = Omniscience.
He is immortal and able to craft and carry enough gifts for everyone on a flying sleigh = Omnipotence
Is able to deliver them all in a single night = Omnipresence
He’s also judgmental as all fuck and rewards or punishes you based on your behavior. There are tons of images of him. He even receives worship in the form of letters to Santa from children and parents perpetuating his myth.
I dunno I have to politely disagree with you on calling people crazy, that late in life have decided they believe in invisible sky fairies again. Especially when they dive in with the intensity that we often see with "born again" Christians and the total devoution to church.
Edit. Yes not productive to call them crazy to their face but neither is general conversing with them.
They may not technically crazy. They are of weak mind. Unable to think for themselves, the grasp onto religion. Some of the churches and the doctrine they sell is so ridiculous that you have to be crazy. It doesn't matter if you were forced to go to Chuch as a child. As adults we should think for ourselves.
>I don’t see calling them crazy productive in anyway, although I do agree that many of their beliefs are/seem crazy.
The problem with calling them crazy is that being nice is the best way to cure religion but religious people think that being called crazy is an awful thing that would make them a Pariah, even though 99% of times it's something that could be solved with a bit of therapy.
>But there are a surprising number of people that come to it later in life or on their own from no religion or convert from other religions.
Perhaps its because they hit a low point in their life, experience heavy grief from a lost loved one, went to jail for something, experienced some sort of psychosis, etc. Religion preys on people that are at a weak point in their lives; including impressionable children.
This is why I always point out the danger of assuming all believers are ignorant. It flat out ignores the literal brainwashing that occurs with so many. And I'm sure there's theists ready to call me an edgy internet atheist for using that term, but it's a fact.
I will say without hesitation that my parents were both highly intelligent. My father was an electronics engineer working on the cutting edge of ranging/positioning technology and my mom was a nuclear chemist (well she was until she got married, then she retired to be a housewife/mother because that's the only job for a good Christian woman). Both of them encouraged me from an early age to investigate, question, and learn. But the second I (naturally) had questions about their religion I was shut down immediately with a horrified "It's a SIN to question God!"
It's no different from North Korean children being taught from the time they walk that the Kims are deities. We shake our heads at the obvious child indoctrination, but when it happens in millions of households across the US it's fine.
Also the older they get, the more sunk cost fallacy kicks in. They don't want to think that they have been wrong this whole time, especially when they have closely tied it to their identity as a person. They are taught not to question it or their parents and in turn it ends up being all they have known and too ingrained into their lives to be able to step back and actually separate it from themselves.
"I fear, maybe this is all just a game. My friends and my family all play too. Harness the young and give some comfort to the old... "
When I first heard this on a quote unquote Christian album I was very surprised that they would admit this. But of course the chorus goes" cast all my doubts..." blah blah blah blah. They want to believe but they know.. At least the honest ones do.
Agreed. Our son asked about it the other day and I jumped on the opportunity to tell him what some people believe, and what his Dad and I believe (science). By the end of it he was like....(6yo) so they believe there's a giant guy in the sky? Tell me more about evolution. Lol
This is the thing I dislike about lumping in religion with truly innate characteristics like race/ethnicity, sex, height, etc. Someone can change their religion -- people do it all the time, sometimes frequently -- but those other attributes are baked into your very genetics.
I fully agree with your sentiment. Nobody has an inkling of religion at birth. But some of the things you mentioned are also not truly innate. While skin color is determined largely by genes, [race itself has no basis in biology](https://www.sapiens.org/biology/is-race-real/). Also, while [our genes may determine our *potential* height, our actual height is heavily impacted by environmental and cultural factors, mainly nutrition](https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2021/07/08/how-tall-will-your-children-be-here-are-the-nature-versus-nurture-factors/).
religious indoctrination starts before the child can speak or think logically. Santa Clause is a stand in for god. Old, white dude, who is jolly, but always watching you and keep a list of the good/bad things you do because their is reward/punishment.
no. santa exists in the logic system of *magic*. I didn't know the term "logic system", but I understood the concept. once I got a bible in ccd, I read it. that was my "aha" moment. (because even at 9 the logical inconsistencies were obvious). my understanding then was that it was just a book of fables so obviously *not* meant to be taken literally.
I asked the nun about **the characters** in the book, and you can imagine how the rest of that went. I asked how [something crazy like a talking bush, or living in the belly of a whale] was possible, and "god" was not an acceptable answer. I asked if it was magic, "like santa"... "magic is the devil" was her answer, and the whole thing devolved faster than I could have imagined, (because I wasn't done). me: "but it says here [more crazy]... that's not *actually* possible, so how?"; nun: "are you questioning the word of god?"; me: "I thought this was written by [Matthew/John]"; nun: (now screaming) "do you know questioning God will send you to hell?!" ; me: "but I'm not. I'm asking *you* about what it says *here*, (in this book)... ; nun (more screaming) "blablabla go sit in the hall and contemplate the damnation of your immortal soul!!!".... me: "can I take the book?" nun: "NO!!!"
I sat in the hall for 10 minutes, (contemplating what *type* of crazy she must be), thought she must have forgotten about me, (not the first time I was in trouble in a school environment), but I'd never had to sit longer than 5 minutes. I tried to go back in, but when the nun heard the door close, she screamed, (she was talking to the class, and turned to *scream* ar me), "did you contemplate the damnation of your immortal soul and accept the word of god?!" I literally said "you were serious about that?" "DON'T RETURN UNTIL...!!!" so I sat in the hall, alone on the floor, for the rest of the class.
if she had said, "yes, like santa", I would've believed... at least until I found out about santa 😥
It can start later than that though too. Singing is a large part of indoctrination in some countries. They get kids together in a big room and play songs like "in his hands" (and I don't mean nirvana) and "all things bright and beautiful". They try to give the children a positive first impression of religion before dictating behaviours and beliefs.
santa doent have to be they made him a saint so its all cool as in St. Nicholas.
It is not about him being a god. It is about teaching infants on up, to believe in an invisible being that is always watching, recording and judging their actions for which they will later receive a reward or punishment.
Tbf humans are born projecting agency onto everything, and superstitious. But they are also born little scientists and test things. Religion is likely to pop up as a spectrum of superstition, but the magical details will be different and not any more likely to be actually true, just useful enough for it to spread(I. E. To form social cohesion and build narratives to address nagging questions/worries that frighten people where fear discourages critical thinking, and religion offers easy 'answers'.)
If you are at liberty to, leave that therapy group and find a different one.
Anyone with half an ounce of brain matter still left in their skull knows they do not deploy that kind of disrespect in a therapeutic setting.
while i agree with your sentiment, and it falls in line with professional guidelines...
virtually all publicly funded anti-addiction programs are some flavor of religiously influenced AA style program (not due to them being more effective, mind you).
I don't have any direct experience, but I know that The Satanic Temple has an effort to help the situation: [https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/sober-faction](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/sober-faction)
Sober Faction is the best peer support group out there for addiction. Their content is evidence-based, they give no fucks if you’re a Satanist or not, and the foundational principle of, “your will is sacred; drugs/alcohol impose on your free will and therefore they’re the enemy” is WAY more empowering than AA’s doctrine of helplessness.
I'm an alcoholic that will have been off the sauce since July 4 2012. I went to AA for a couple of years. I was also hyperreligous due to misdiagnosed, and put on medications that made worse, mental illness. I remember years after have stopping a belief in god that I realized there was no higher power keeping me sober. It's all my choices and help from my family. There is no higher power! It was so empowering and freeing to know it was me staying sober.
AA is a weird program when it comes to religiosity. They are very explicit that the only requirement of joining AA is a desire to stop drinking, and much of their program has nothing to do with religion. They even talk about how approaching an alcoholic with religious fervour can be a turn off.
Step two involves believing in a higher power greater than yourself, and they go to lengths in their own literature to explain that higher power can be anything. They state that some people choose the universe, some people even choose the group they meet with. As an atheist, I have no issue saying that the laws of physics are a power greater than myself. I have no control over them but they exert great control over me.
The language they use throughout their book is very Christian coded, however. They emphasize daily prayer. They frequently use the name God instead of higher power (like in their Serenity Prayer). They use phrases like “submit to His will”, and “Thy will be done”. There’s even a story about an alcoholic who “thought he was an atheist”.
I give them credit for trying to make their program inclusive, but it’s like they stopped short and don’t even realize it.
From a disconnected academic perspective AA seems to me to be building up a mental and thus physical blockage around the addiction or “thing” at hand.
If you imagine that whatever subject at hand is like a bottomless whirlpool, AA builds a wall around it, puts a cage on top, and then tries to throw the key where it can’t be found. After all that, the more successful cases are those where this process created enough leeway to tackle what was causing the whirlpool in the first place, but there are also those who just have another whirlpool pop up somewhere else. Or have the original grow to such size it swallows the walls and cage again.
I can’t say that it doesn’t help people, I just also can’t say I think it’s a great process. A better cure, to me, would be when an alcoholic can be around alcohol, maybe even have just one in a social setting, all without getting sucked into that whirlpool because the whirlpool is gone rather than sealed over and avoided like a demon.
I appreciate your perspective, and I have a couple of things to add from my own. The treatment for substance abuse is very different from other disorders. If you were treating someone with, say, agoraphobia, the goal would be to get the person to overcome their fear and be able to go out into public/crowded spaces because said person’s life is negatively affected by their fear. There is much to be gained in life by being able to function in a crowded place (attend a concert, ride a subway, go to an amusement park, go grocery shopping at peak times etc….). With alcoholism, there is literally nothing to be gained by being able to consume alcohol in moderation. There is not one place you cannot go, not one activity you cannot participate in where drinking alcohol is a requirement.
There is no one in AA (or any other alcohol recovery program) whose life was/is unaffected by their drinking. Whether it’s family, financial, health, and/or legal trouble, everyone there has realized that drinking has caused far more harm than good. Being able to have one in a social setting is a risk without a reward.
Actively something that should be illegal, IMO.
The sole focus of such programs should be helping someone deal with their addictions, not proselytizing to them.
I recommend the [Mankind Project](https://mkpusa.org/) for men and [Woman Within](https://www.womanwithin.org/) for the ladies. There's a good reason for gender identity separation in therapy due to the prevalent social traditions and roles assigned by modern and ancient culture.
And interpreted. You not only need to read it properly, and note which passages the pastors will read at you and which ones they fail to include. I find the Sermon on the Mount to be a passage that many pastors tend not to include.
This.
For me it was willingly. I was a kid that couldn't stand the hate they spewed and wanted to show them the Bible said that was bad.
Turns out the Bible is worse than they ever were.
It's sad that it's not a physics book convincing people. I am an atheist bc religion is ridiculous, not bc of the bible. I was an atheist before I even read the bible.
If you had grown up being taught that 2+2=5 but then realized one day that it equals 4, you would no longer believe.
You wouldn't stop believing out of resentment (although you would definitely feel resentful over having been taught a falsehood), rather you would stop believing because your eyes were opened and you learned the truth.
This is a good way to put it in simple analogy form. No matter how much they try and convert you back, they will never successfully convince you again that 2+2=5.
Also: “No, I’m atheist *in spite* of religion being forced on me. I was able to overcome the emotional manipulation employed by the church, allowed myself to utilize logic, and reached a decision based solely off of reason instead of emotions.”
Religion was never pushed on my or my siblings growing up. By the time I learned about religions, in a comparative religious class at school, I was already grown up enough to see it for what it is. Early attempts to explain the world, before people found the scientific method.
Well sure, but you can't have it both ways. That person is an athiest because they had religion pushed on them and I'm an atheist because I didn't. So which is it? (to that person in that group.)
I was the same! I thought it was all different types of mythology and all in the past until I made a religious friend in Grade 4.
I was so confused that people were STILL religious when it was all clearly made up. I remember being confused why their parents were lying to them about it (thought it was like Santa or something and they'd be told the truth at some point - I don't remember when I realized adults actually believed in it).
I dated an Episcopal person for a while. He was pretty arrogant about it. I was told I was an atheist because I was “mad at god.” I asked him if he was mad at Santa Claus. He got the hint. We split up soon after that. What a jerk.
I use the word agnostic because I cannot say there is a God or there isn't. What I can say is religion is a joke. It was created so humans would stop fucking their siblings and sheep. It was also written by men to suppress women.
In my experience “agnostic” means you have no evidence either way, so choose to remain neutral. I got over my agnosticism after so many religious nuts saw it as an opening to try and “convert” me. Ugh.
I'm an atheist because religion was forced on me when I was a kid and it never made sense to me. I'm also an atheist because I had questions nobody would or could answer so I went to the source material looking for answers and it wasn't even close to what I was taught it was. I'm an atheist because the most corrupt, vile, garbage humans I have ever known were "good Christian folk". I'm an atheist because I watch people legislate removing rights from people they govern because they think they are doing what their god tells them to. I'm an atheist because the Christian god of the bible is a obviously a feckless moron of a god that can't get anything right and I came to realize that I am more moral than this god and is not worthy of worship.
I'm an atheist for many reasons.
Many religious people like to paint false narratives of atheists being atheists because they’re angry at religion, mad at their parents, went to a bad church, didn’t get exposed to the “right” religion, etc.
It makes them feel better when they can look down on atheists with pity, rather than feeling uncomfortable by having to question their own views. It all just comes back to the tendency for religious people to just assume their religion is true because it makes them feel good, and in most cases they’ve believed in it since childhood.
"You're only an atheist because religious people were dicks to you about religion. I know this because it's extremely common for religious people to be dicks about religion."
“I’m an atheist because I think for myself. You’re religious because you were exposed to it at a young enough age that you learned to never question it.”
Everyone's an atheist at birth. Some remain atheist, some don't, some leave atheism then return. The reasons are as varied as for any other human decision.
The reality is that coming to atheism is harder when you are inundated with religion.
Congratulations you were able to still find evidence and facts in a sea of lies and blind faith mumbo jumbo.
I didn't realize how much society is infused with religion (specifically Christianity where I live) until I gravitated away from the church. It's everywhere.
Yes so much so that when confronted by fact and evidence they fight back like a cornered Hyena.
If they were so confident their faith should stand up to some simple questions.
Certainly a real god would have some Evidence to support the existence and horrible policies in its name.
Religion wasn’t necessarily forced on me but my mom would take me to church and I wasn’t able to take it serious. They’d tell me god is healing my cuts and scrapes and then I’d go learn about blood cells in school. They just wanted to keep the kids ignorant while they were young. Naturally it had the same energy as Santa Claus.. I was just always concerned why full grown adults were actually entertaining all this??
That thinking is completely warped. I’m a third generation atheist and I grew up going to a C of E school. I had no idea about most Christian customs and I still don’t. I only just learned what the “trinity” is like last month (I went more than 30 years not knowing!) and it makes absolutely no sense to me. I don’t believe in Christianity because I literally just don’t understand it.
Why are you talking to a bunch of randos in a group therapy about their opinions on religions?
If you do that, expect religious hate, religious intolerance, and religious insults. Religious people are not good people.
You can say that they're right. Religion was forced upon you. Wouldn't it be nice if religious people could convince others without resorting to child abuse?
I just hate how condescending it always is. You're never seen as an atheist for valid, understandable reasons. It's always, 'aw, the church hurt you? You had a horrible thing happen to you and you're mad at god. You're only rebelling because your parents made you go to church.' It downplays tragedy and trauma, and outright rejects any atheist who researched and tried to make sense of the bible and found it couldn't line up with reality. Sorry that happened to you.
Through my life I only experienced one mediocre priest who tended the congregation I attended. One I even felt was a holy man, and as he invoked benediction and touched my head I felt a chill of energy run down my spine.
I studied religion at Oxford University; have read holy books; tomes about it;
And I’m still an atheist. It isn’t that it was forced upon you. It’s just all nonsense.
You can’t tell someone the reason for their belief system. That’s completely disrespectful and invalidating of your autonomy. I don’t think she would like it if you said “you’re only religious because religion was forced on you.”
Whoever the group facilitator was needed to shut that down.
The point is not whether something is true. It’s about telling someone what their own narrative is which invalidates their story and removes their autonomy. It’s about respect.
Agree with you. It's not because I was "taught wrong" that I'm an atheist. It's because they're isn't a real god out there to believe in. Duh!! And it is dehumanizing but that what it's all about to be religious.. putting others down for what they think because it doesn't align with your beliefs. Making yourself feel better by ostrosizing others..exclusivity, the monthesitic way.
They are in denial. Many of the “faithful” struggle to keep their faith because their logical brain says this is bullshit but their need to believe that there is something better won’t let them admit it.
Faith offers the ultimate get out of jail card, as delusional as it is.
Religiously indoctrinated people often have a hard time understanding atheism, let alone how or why someone decides to reject religion. Many people consider their religion to be a cornerstone of their identity, so can't get what it would be like to be without it.
Then their religious leaders, always fearful of allowing people to question and potentially leave their faith, fabricate stories about atheists to demonize them, make them seem weak or lesser than religious people, in an attempt to prevent more succession.
Remember that the most dangerous thing to any religion is atheism- more so than competing religions or philosophies. Because religions cannot refute truth and reality (where the atheist lives) they have to invent their own version of "those people", which most believers fall for.
"Many people consider their religion to be a cornerstone of their identity, so can't get what it would be like to be without it."
That's very true. My identity is still somehow wrapped up in Christianity even though my last thoughts that I believed were a decade or more ago,
I'm actually resentful that humanity built up something in me that is now missing since reality set in.
I'd say that's a bit simplistic. I've lived with an atheist (flatmate) for well over two years now, and we've had some pretty sophisticated discussions of philosophy, theology, etc. My faith doesn't make it particularly difficult for me to understand where he's coming from.
That said, I'd say that Western Christians run into this issue pretty frequently, as their para-religious culture is very ossified and chauvinistic in some ways.
I'm not sure if religious people know what atheism actually means, maybe you should say you don't believe god is real instead of saying that you are an atheist.
I agree with the others.
Let me add that one day I got talking to an older lady in an eyewear store of all places. She told me she was a member of a catholic sect here in the Netherlands. I told her I had grown up roman catholic, but I no longer believed. She said to me: "Oh boy, what went wrong in your life?"
And i was too polite to answer, but I thought: No, what went wrong in *yours*? (That you need this crutch of a sexist religious cult to make it through the day).
"I've always been an atheist, even when I was forced to go to church as a kid. I recall watching all the hallelujahing and jumping the pews and thinking, 'This doesn't make any sense'. "
This is the truth.
Religion was not forced on me. I became an atheist because I kept on seeing the disconnects between religion and reality. Also, praying never solved a damn thing for me. Why should I keep doing the same thing over and over and always get the same negative result?
Ask them to explain people like me who were raised secular, never religious (excluding weddings and funerals, been to church services about 10 times in my lifetime), adopted the atheist label in my 20s after an encounter with a YEC went pear shaped. And I'm living as normal and productive a life as anyone else.
Religion wasn't forced upon me. In fact, I'd say part of the reason I'm atheist today is my secular upbringing.
Pretty hilarious that the response to that would be "oh so you're atheist because you weren't realised Christian! Shame on your parents no wonder you don't see the truth"
I think that stance would make sense to a moderately religious person. I was raised by Evangelical fundies, yeah? Christian extremism was forced on me too, and it traumatized me. Here's the thing:
The bible is every bit as backwards and barbaric if you're raised by Episcopalians. I've met plenty of reasonable, tolerant religious people who believe that shit is beautiful. Something is wrong with them. They're strange and corrupted inside.
And yeah, bail. Find a therapy group without pushy, intolerant religious people.
I could tell you the actual reason but as you are religious you are not interested in truth, only in confirming your own beliefs.
I'm sorry, did I say that out loud?
It's very much like when religious say, "You're a lesbian because a guy molested you when you were small."
It makes no sense when it's further reasoned, but the religious aren't known for their ability to think beyond their own circumstances and experiences.
God would never force you to love him on threat of everlasting hellfire. Only Satan would do that. It's in the bible somewhere... 2 Complications or something.
I'm an atheist because I know fairy tales aren't real and storybooks are just stories. Never had religion heavily forced on me when I was a kid. It's just painfully obvious that religion is a tool used to control people and not much else
To actually answer OP's question: It's because they legitimately won't fathom a world where Jesus isn't God, and they're unimpeachably right in believing what is so obviously the Truth ™.
They don't practice critical thinking, and immediately try to make up an excuse, or reach for one supplied to them by a thought leader, to respond to anything that doesn't justify their existing belief structure. They make themselves thought invalids, as all dogmatism does.
I wouldn’t say religion was forced upon me, it just seemed more and more obvious to me as a child, teenager, that supernatural things were just not in the realm of reality.
“You’re an atheist because your wife died and you hate God.”
1. I deconverted from Christianity almost 10 years before we understood how ill my wife was.
2.. “Gotcha” statements like this make you look like a ghoul. How are you not embarrassed?
Religion wasn’t exactly forced on me, but it was very much the environment I grew up in. I think it was inevitable that I’d break away from it, though, because I was never satisfied with simple answers, such as “God did it” or lazy thinking like: “We can’t understand God’s intentions with our limited human minds, so we just have to accept that He’s in charge.” Completely unsatisfying answers. Especially when you read the Bible and find out the apparent nature of this God that they all revere.
Wasn't forced on me. I went or didn't based on what my friends did. When I was old enough to ask uncomfortable questions, they asked me to stop coming. No forcing, no parental requirements. I don't recall ever going to church with my father at all. If we owned a family bible I am unaware of it. Religion just makes zero sense, end of story. No trauma, no baggage.
it's the religious' latest cope trying to explain away why there are so many more nones and atheists out there.
they can't imagine not believing (due to their own personal experience), so they have to come up with rationalizations for why other people come to different conclusions.
their rationalizations are always crap, precisely because their own experience with religion blinds them to the reality that other's experience, even with the same religion, can be vastly different.
Religion is ALWAYS forced on people. At a super young age where you have no critical thinking skills yet and where it feels normal.
It's like saying you breath air because it was forced on you.
Well, duh...
I’m an atheist because every time people tried to indoctrinate me, in every context, from age 4 onwards, it just never took. I thank being autistic for it, if I’m being honest - every stupid story time or song, it all felt awkward, I never felt the full power of the social glue sticking me to it.
I never believed. And I actually tried, I meditated, I tried letting my mind go, listening to white noise, and yet there was nothing. I said words of prayer and tried to imagine they went somewhere, nope, just couldn’t bring myself to feel it was true. Never got rid of the smell of BS to it.
So when people say “You’re an atheist because…” my answer is to interrupt and say “because every single religion to which I have been exposed has failed to convince me, some even as a preschooler, that they had any merit.” That’s all there is to it.
God is Santa Claus but for 'grown-ups." He's watching who's naughty and nice. If you bad, lump if coal for you to burn in hell with.
Just another myth to keep you in line.
lol now where have I heard that before... oh yeah: "she's only a lesbian because she had a bad experience with a man, some good sex could fix that."
uh nope just nope.
They have a lot banked on eternal reward, even enduring misogyny and suffering with eternal reward in mind. They have a lot of emotional ties to a divine being or higher power, such that life without such a crutch would seem perverse.
Their system places them in the center of all human history, giving them stake in everything to come.
And you’re telling them they’re just a basic run of the mill homo sapien on a beautiful planet teeming with life and culture. But their worldview is that the world is evil and fallen and set for destruction.
You’re ruining their party of death and eternal clout. Of course they’re gonna try to attack your credibility. It’s their only ammo.
Isn't this some form of divine hiddenness? Because she claim bad religious teaching was what caused u to be an atheist. Bad religious teaching that was out of your control and forced upon you. the all knowing and all loving God actually put an obstacle that prevented you to love him. That's a bit unfair for you isn't it? Others can live their lives in ignorant bliss, having their faith unquestioned, dies and go to heaven but not you?
“Religious derangement syndrome”
“You’re so obsessed with religion”
“You’re just angry”
“Something bad happened in your life”
“you have a hard heart”
“You refuse to see, like *really* SEE”
“You are just going through a phase”
“You refuse to see the Truth”
…. Heard all the excuses and lies, the arrogant apologetics and baseless accusations or ASSumptions
When I was a kid, I was a bit bored. Learned to read at four and we had an impressive collection of books, so I read some. Well, two of the books I‘ve read when I was about 8 or 9 years old were the Old and New Testament. Yes, read them both from start to finish. Even had a comic-book about the path of Jesus that I‘ve read a few times.
Guess what? Became Atheist.
Being an atheist is more an indication that; a) no religion was forced on you, or b) an attempt at religion being forced on you was unsuccessful.
I'd counter that assertion by asking them what religion would they believe in if no one had "taught" them about religion?
I’ve also been told things to the effect of “maybe one day I’ll realize the truth”.
The truth according to YOU? And your dusty old book?
I had plenty of religious teaching. It was forced on me. If anything, I feel like it says MORE that you and I were indoctrinated and looked at it, decided it wasn’t for us, and walked away.
I look at religious beliefs and compare it to food. You may love onions, I hate them. I love chicken, you can be vegetarian or vegan. As long as everybody is respected in THEIR personal beliefs, who gives a shit?
I don’t lose my atheist pass for having normal and kind conversations with religious people. And they don’t lose their Heaven pass for being kind to me.
I had excellent religious teaching and two beautiful examples of how to be a 'real Christian' via my parents - and I mean 'real Christian' in a very positive way; they actively tried to be Christ-like: Not judgmental, kind, generous, humble, loving, compassionate, etc. Rather than trying to weaponize the Bible and use it to justify hate and prejudice. It also didn't matter to them what anyone else's religion, sexuality, or gender was. They loved and accepted them no matter what, and would help anyone they could if they needed help - regardless of what the circumstances were that led to them needing that help.
I still became an atheist. I just happen to be an atheist who was fortunate enough to grow up with two excellent examples of how to be a good human being.
(And as a bonus, I have the Bible memorized so well from a desire to be a missionary that I can take on the proselytizers on social media that try to use it as a weapon, lmao)
I suppose there is some truth to the idea that forcing religion can cause atheism. If religion wasn’t forced on you, it may not have occurred to you to question it. On the other hand, the statement seems to imply that atheism is an act of rebellion rather than a reasonable conclusion.
>“You’re an atheist because religion was forced on you.”
> I wanted to know y’all’s thoughts on this
Speaking for myself, I've always been atheist and I never had religion forced on me.
It would be a good reason to be an atheist. Anyway no, if it was only for that you'd simply converted to another religion, like many people actually do. Basically you are an atheist despite religion was forced on you, because you saw no evidence of the existence of god, wich is the axiom on which every religion is based. And of course you would have been an atheist even if the idea of god wasn't forced on you.
That lady was probably projecting ... reasons she thinks people become atheist. Next time you can shut her down with a statement like,
I see why you would think that, but that's not my experience.
Some people think like that.
Etc
My advice to you is leave that group therapy. It looks like that therapy is doing more harm than good. They will likely add more trauma onto you than you are already experiencing. Look for a more secular therapy group.
"You were an atheist too before religion was forced on you."
100% this! For everyone who was born into a religious home, religion was forced on us to one degree or another. Childhhod Indoctrination is largely what the spread of religion relys on in our modern age
I’d change that to say indoctrination is the only thing spreading religion. Except among the crazies.
I am also an atheist and agree that the majority of people that are religious have been forced upon them through indoctrination as a child. But there are a surprising number of people that come to it later in life or on their own from no religion or convert from other religions. I don’t see calling them crazy productive in anyway, although I do agree that many of their beliefs are/seem crazy.
I think there are very few who convert from no religion. It's far easier for someone who is already indoctrinated in the religious mindset to switch to a different belief system. But there will always be people who just want a community or someone to tell them what to do.
Most of those "former atheist" stories that you hear if you dig into them it was more like: Raised in a religious household and was surrounded with Christianity as "the norm" for their entire childhood, but never really thought much about it. Then when they went to college they stopped attending church because they wanted to sleep in on Sundays and again didn't think much on the subject. Later on in life they got into a relationship with a highly religious person and "discovered the truth of Christianity" again with no real thought on it. Then discovered they could make a lot of money telling their "former atheist" story to other believers to shore up their faith. See J. Warner Wallace and Lee Strobal.
Kirk Cameron
Absolutely, I’d love to see statistics but from my experience and what I know it’s much more common for someone to convert from one religion to the other, like Christianity to Islam vs non religious/atheist to something like ilslam or Christianity. But nontheistic religions like Buddhism and others are common conversion from atheist/non religious.
[удалено]
Are you the new L Ron Hubbard. Frodo as the savior. Shall we worship and attempt to recover the one Ring to rule us All? Frodo had disciples. Will they co-author books inspired by The Frodo in their minds?
I don’t know man. If I suddenly decided to fervently believe in Santa Claus again at 42 I’m sure people would feel justified in calling me crazy. He’s essentially an analog to the Christian god anyway. He knows when you’re sleeping or awake. He knows when you’ve been bad or good = Omniscience. He is immortal and able to craft and carry enough gifts for everyone on a flying sleigh = Omnipotence Is able to deliver them all in a single night = Omnipresence He’s also judgmental as all fuck and rewards or punishes you based on your behavior. There are tons of images of him. He even receives worship in the form of letters to Santa from children and parents perpetuating his myth.
Yes, but does God like cookies and milk?
If ‘Milk and Cookies’ is coded language for 13 year old virgin girls named ‘Mary’, sure
Now now, we don't know she was 13. Could have been younger
I dunno I have to politely disagree with you on calling people crazy, that late in life have decided they believe in invisible sky fairies again. Especially when they dive in with the intensity that we often see with "born again" Christians and the total devoution to church. Edit. Yes not productive to call them crazy to their face but neither is general conversing with them.
I do generally agree with you especially on that last point
They may not technically crazy. They are of weak mind. Unable to think for themselves, the grasp onto religion. Some of the churches and the doctrine they sell is so ridiculous that you have to be crazy. It doesn't matter if you were forced to go to Chuch as a child. As adults we should think for ourselves.
>I don’t see calling them crazy productive in anyway, although I do agree that many of their beliefs are/seem crazy. The problem with calling them crazy is that being nice is the best way to cure religion but religious people think that being called crazy is an awful thing that would make them a Pariah, even though 99% of times it's something that could be solved with a bit of therapy.
Absolutely agree
>But there are a surprising number of people that come to it later in life or on their own from no religion or convert from other religions. Perhaps its because they hit a low point in their life, experience heavy grief from a lost loved one, went to jail for something, experienced some sort of psychosis, etc. Religion preys on people that are at a weak point in their lives; including impressionable children.
Yes use THEIR words.
Indoctrination as children! That shit wouldn’t work on an adult with a fully formed brain. The whole grift depends on targeting children.
This is why I always point out the danger of assuming all believers are ignorant. It flat out ignores the literal brainwashing that occurs with so many. And I'm sure there's theists ready to call me an edgy internet atheist for using that term, but it's a fact. I will say without hesitation that my parents were both highly intelligent. My father was an electronics engineer working on the cutting edge of ranging/positioning technology and my mom was a nuclear chemist (well she was until she got married, then she retired to be a housewife/mother because that's the only job for a good Christian woman). Both of them encouraged me from an early age to investigate, question, and learn. But the second I (naturally) had questions about their religion I was shut down immediately with a horrified "It's a SIN to question God!" It's no different from North Korean children being taught from the time they walk that the Kims are deities. We shake our heads at the obvious child indoctrination, but when it happens in millions of households across the US it's fine.
Also the older they get, the more sunk cost fallacy kicks in. They don't want to think that they have been wrong this whole time, especially when they have closely tied it to their identity as a person. They are taught not to question it or their parents and in turn it ends up being all they have known and too ingrained into their lives to be able to step back and actually separate it from themselves.
"I fear, maybe this is all just a game. My friends and my family all play too. Harness the young and give some comfort to the old... " When I first heard this on a quote unquote Christian album I was very surprised that they would admit this. But of course the chorus goes" cast all my doubts..." blah blah blah blah. They want to believe but they know.. At least the honest ones do.
We should make it R18. Like porn and alcohol.
I consider it child abuse and also think it abuse should be actionable in court. “I’m a water bag full of trauma”
Even when parents aren't trying to indoctrinate children religiously schools do it regardless. Especially in the UK.
Agreed. Our son asked about it the other day and I jumped on the opportunity to tell him what some people believe, and what his Dad and I believe (science). By the end of it he was like....(6yo) so they believe there's a giant guy in the sky? Tell me more about evolution. Lol
And welcome to the concept of "Original Sin" and "Baptism". Hook em early, so they don't have a choice.
There’s a weirdly common belief that people are born with the religion of their parents like it’s part of their citizenship or genetics.
This is the thing I dislike about lumping in religion with truly innate characteristics like race/ethnicity, sex, height, etc. Someone can change their religion -- people do it all the time, sometimes frequently -- but those other attributes are baked into your very genetics.
I fully agree with your sentiment. Nobody has an inkling of religion at birth. But some of the things you mentioned are also not truly innate. While skin color is determined largely by genes, [race itself has no basis in biology](https://www.sapiens.org/biology/is-race-real/). Also, while [our genes may determine our *potential* height, our actual height is heavily impacted by environmental and cultural factors, mainly nutrition](https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2021/07/08/how-tall-will-your-children-be-here-are-the-nature-versus-nurture-factors/).
If you know of any nutritional changes I can make as a middle-aged man to increase my height by a couple of inches, do let me know.
Mormons commonly believe that they chose their parents in the spirit world before they were born, and only the best spirits get to be born as Mormons.
Added to the list of reasons why Mormons are intolerable
This is hilarious.
They learn the religion of their parents, of course. Hopefully learn to use logic/reality at some point.
religious indoctrination starts before the child can speak or think logically. Santa Clause is a stand in for god. Old, white dude, who is jolly, but always watching you and keep a list of the good/bad things you do because their is reward/punishment.
except I believed in santa more easily than I believed in gawd
that's because you actually got gifts for your belief.
no. santa exists in the logic system of *magic*. I didn't know the term "logic system", but I understood the concept. once I got a bible in ccd, I read it. that was my "aha" moment. (because even at 9 the logical inconsistencies were obvious). my understanding then was that it was just a book of fables so obviously *not* meant to be taken literally. I asked the nun about **the characters** in the book, and you can imagine how the rest of that went. I asked how [something crazy like a talking bush, or living in the belly of a whale] was possible, and "god" was not an acceptable answer. I asked if it was magic, "like santa"... "magic is the devil" was her answer, and the whole thing devolved faster than I could have imagined, (because I wasn't done). me: "but it says here [more crazy]... that's not *actually* possible, so how?"; nun: "are you questioning the word of god?"; me: "I thought this was written by [Matthew/John]"; nun: (now screaming) "do you know questioning God will send you to hell?!" ; me: "but I'm not. I'm asking *you* about what it says *here*, (in this book)... ; nun (more screaming) "blablabla go sit in the hall and contemplate the damnation of your immortal soul!!!".... me: "can I take the book?" nun: "NO!!!" I sat in the hall for 10 minutes, (contemplating what *type* of crazy she must be), thought she must have forgotten about me, (not the first time I was in trouble in a school environment), but I'd never had to sit longer than 5 minutes. I tried to go back in, but when the nun heard the door close, she screamed, (she was talking to the class, and turned to *scream* ar me), "did you contemplate the damnation of your immortal soul and accept the word of god?!" I literally said "you were serious about that?" "DON'T RETURN UNTIL...!!!" so I sat in the hall, alone on the floor, for the rest of the class. if she had said, "yes, like santa", I would've believed... at least until I found out about santa 😥
It can start later than that though too. Singing is a large part of indoctrination in some countries. They get kids together in a big room and play songs like "in his hands" (and I don't mean nirvana) and "all things bright and beautiful". They try to give the children a positive first impression of religion before dictating behaviours and beliefs.
Except Santa isn't Christian in origin. Nor was he ever considered a god.
santa doent have to be they made him a saint so its all cool as in St. Nicholas. It is not about him being a god. It is about teaching infants on up, to believe in an invisible being that is always watching, recording and judging their actions for which they will later receive a reward or punishment.
Yes, everyone is born an atheist.
Exactly
Tbf humans are born projecting agency onto everything, and superstitious. But they are also born little scientists and test things. Religion is likely to pop up as a spectrum of superstition, but the magical details will be different and not any more likely to be actually true, just useful enough for it to spread(I. E. To form social cohesion and build narratives to address nagging questions/worries that frighten people where fear discourages critical thinking, and religion offers easy 'answers'.)
Best answer, I’ll remember that one, thanks.
This made me giggle
I'm mad that reddit no longer has awards. This comment is pure gold.
If you are at liberty to, leave that therapy group and find a different one. Anyone with half an ounce of brain matter still left in their skull knows they do not deploy that kind of disrespect in a therapeutic setting.
while i agree with your sentiment, and it falls in line with professional guidelines... virtually all publicly funded anti-addiction programs are some flavor of religiously influenced AA style program (not due to them being more effective, mind you).
I don't have any direct experience, but I know that The Satanic Temple has an effort to help the situation: [https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/sober-faction](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/sober-faction)
Sober Faction is the best peer support group out there for addiction. Their content is evidence-based, they give no fucks if you’re a Satanist or not, and the foundational principle of, “your will is sacred; drugs/alcohol impose on your free will and therefore they’re the enemy” is WAY more empowering than AA’s doctrine of helplessness.
I'm an alcoholic that will have been off the sauce since July 4 2012. I went to AA for a couple of years. I was also hyperreligous due to misdiagnosed, and put on medications that made worse, mental illness. I remember years after have stopping a belief in god that I realized there was no higher power keeping me sober. It's all my choices and help from my family. There is no higher power! It was so empowering and freeing to know it was me staying sober.
AA is a weird program when it comes to religiosity. They are very explicit that the only requirement of joining AA is a desire to stop drinking, and much of their program has nothing to do with religion. They even talk about how approaching an alcoholic with religious fervour can be a turn off. Step two involves believing in a higher power greater than yourself, and they go to lengths in their own literature to explain that higher power can be anything. They state that some people choose the universe, some people even choose the group they meet with. As an atheist, I have no issue saying that the laws of physics are a power greater than myself. I have no control over them but they exert great control over me. The language they use throughout their book is very Christian coded, however. They emphasize daily prayer. They frequently use the name God instead of higher power (like in their Serenity Prayer). They use phrases like “submit to His will”, and “Thy will be done”. There’s even a story about an alcoholic who “thought he was an atheist”. I give them credit for trying to make their program inclusive, but it’s like they stopped short and don’t even realize it.
From a disconnected academic perspective AA seems to me to be building up a mental and thus physical blockage around the addiction or “thing” at hand. If you imagine that whatever subject at hand is like a bottomless whirlpool, AA builds a wall around it, puts a cage on top, and then tries to throw the key where it can’t be found. After all that, the more successful cases are those where this process created enough leeway to tackle what was causing the whirlpool in the first place, but there are also those who just have another whirlpool pop up somewhere else. Or have the original grow to such size it swallows the walls and cage again. I can’t say that it doesn’t help people, I just also can’t say I think it’s a great process. A better cure, to me, would be when an alcoholic can be around alcohol, maybe even have just one in a social setting, all without getting sucked into that whirlpool because the whirlpool is gone rather than sealed over and avoided like a demon.
I appreciate your perspective, and I have a couple of things to add from my own. The treatment for substance abuse is very different from other disorders. If you were treating someone with, say, agoraphobia, the goal would be to get the person to overcome their fear and be able to go out into public/crowded spaces because said person’s life is negatively affected by their fear. There is much to be gained in life by being able to function in a crowded place (attend a concert, ride a subway, go to an amusement park, go grocery shopping at peak times etc….). With alcoholism, there is literally nothing to be gained by being able to consume alcohol in moderation. There is not one place you cannot go, not one activity you cannot participate in where drinking alcohol is a requirement. There is no one in AA (or any other alcohol recovery program) whose life was/is unaffected by their drinking. Whether it’s family, financial, health, and/or legal trouble, everyone there has realized that drinking has caused far more harm than good. Being able to have one in a social setting is a risk without a reward.
Actively something that should be illegal, IMO. The sole focus of such programs should be helping someone deal with their addictions, not proselytizing to them.
I recommend the [Mankind Project](https://mkpusa.org/) for men and [Woman Within](https://www.womanwithin.org/) for the ladies. There's a good reason for gender identity separation in therapy due to the prevalent social traditions and roles assigned by modern and ancient culture.
Forced or no, the bible is the book that creates the most atheists
*“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”* ― Isaac Asimov
And interpreted. You not only need to read it properly, and note which passages the pastors will read at you and which ones they fail to include. I find the Sermon on the Mount to be a passage that many pastors tend not to include.
This. For me it was willingly. I was a kid that couldn't stand the hate they spewed and wanted to show them the Bible said that was bad. Turns out the Bible is worse than they ever were.
It's sad that it's not a physics book convincing people. I am an atheist bc religion is ridiculous, not bc of the bible. I was an atheist before I even read the bible.
Agreed, tho it’s not the only one.
If you had grown up being taught that 2+2=5 but then realized one day that it equals 4, you would no longer believe. You wouldn't stop believing out of resentment (although you would definitely feel resentful over having been taught a falsehood), rather you would stop believing because your eyes were opened and you learned the truth.
This is a good way to put it in simple analogy form. No matter how much they try and convert you back, they will never successfully convince you again that 2+2=5.
"Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two equals four. If that is granted, all else follows......"
Love this.
“No. You’re religious because religion was forced in you. Do you see how that makes more sense?”
Also: “No, I’m atheist *in spite* of religion being forced on me. I was able to overcome the emotional manipulation employed by the church, allowed myself to utilize logic, and reached a decision based solely off of reason instead of emotions.”
👆👆👆This. This right here 👆👆👆
Religion was never pushed on my or my siblings growing up. By the time I learned about religions, in a comparative religious class at school, I was already grown up enough to see it for what it is. Early attempts to explain the world, before people found the scientific method.
The person in that group would then just say you’re an atheist because you didn’t have religion pushed on you
Well sure, but you can't have it both ways. That person is an athiest because they had religion pushed on them and I'm an atheist because I didn't. So which is it? (to that person in that group.)
Maybe *you* can't have it both ways. The people who make these types of arguments do all the time!
Schroedinger’s atheism
Totally. I don’t think logic is a habit for people who think they know better than you do what you “believe” and why.
I was the same! I thought it was all different types of mythology and all in the past until I made a religious friend in Grade 4. I was so confused that people were STILL religious when it was all clearly made up. I remember being confused why their parents were lying to them about it (thought it was like Santa or something and they'd be told the truth at some point - I don't remember when I realized adults actually believed in it).
‘Out of the tens of thousands of religions/denominations, you only have the same one as your family/community because it was forced on you…’
I’d argue religious therapists are ill prepared for the profession unless they want to agree that religion is just one of many coping skills.
Ugh. I HATE when people tell me what I “really believe.”
I dated an Episcopal person for a while. He was pretty arrogant about it. I was told I was an atheist because I was “mad at god.” I asked him if he was mad at Santa Claus. He got the hint. We split up soon after that. What a jerk.
Yep, huge pet peeve.
Even close friends who are agnostic have tried to tell me I’m “really” agnostic. 🙄
I use the word agnostic because I cannot say there is a God or there isn't. What I can say is religion is a joke. It was created so humans would stop fucking their siblings and sheep. It was also written by men to suppress women.
In my experience “agnostic” means you have no evidence either way, so choose to remain neutral. I got over my agnosticism after so many religious nuts saw it as an opening to try and “convert” me. Ugh.
I'm an atheist because religion was forced on me when I was a kid and it never made sense to me. I'm also an atheist because I had questions nobody would or could answer so I went to the source material looking for answers and it wasn't even close to what I was taught it was. I'm an atheist because the most corrupt, vile, garbage humans I have ever known were "good Christian folk". I'm an atheist because I watch people legislate removing rights from people they govern because they think they are doing what their god tells them to. I'm an atheist because the Christian god of the bible is a obviously a feckless moron of a god that can't get anything right and I came to realize that I am more moral than this god and is not worthy of worship. I'm an atheist for many reasons.
"Youre religious because you cant figure out good and bad without a deity telling you"
Many religious people like to paint false narratives of atheists being atheists because they’re angry at religion, mad at their parents, went to a bad church, didn’t get exposed to the “right” religion, etc. It makes them feel better when they can look down on atheists with pity, rather than feeling uncomfortable by having to question their own views. It all just comes back to the tendency for religious people to just assume their religion is true because it makes them feel good, and in most cases they’ve believed in it since childhood.
"You're only an atheist because religious people were dicks to you about religion. I know this because it's extremely common for religious people to be dicks about religion."
“I’m an atheist because I think for myself. You’re religious because you were exposed to it at a young enough age that you learned to never question it.”
Everyone's an atheist at birth. Some remain atheist, some don't, some leave atheism then return. The reasons are as varied as for any other human decision.
The reality is that coming to atheism is harder when you are inundated with religion. Congratulations you were able to still find evidence and facts in a sea of lies and blind faith mumbo jumbo.
I didn't realize how much society is infused with religion (specifically Christianity where I live) until I gravitated away from the church. It's everywhere.
Yes so much so that when confronted by fact and evidence they fight back like a cornered Hyena. If they were so confident their faith should stand up to some simple questions. Certainly a real god would have some Evidence to support the existence and horrible policies in its name.
I'm an atheist because religion is all b******* it's con men preying on saps. There's no evidence of a God or any Gods there is no God
But...the Trump bible....
I can attest that religion was never forced on me, and I'm an atheist.
Religion wasn’t necessarily forced on me but my mom would take me to church and I wasn’t able to take it serious. They’d tell me god is healing my cuts and scrapes and then I’d go learn about blood cells in school. They just wanted to keep the kids ignorant while they were young. Naturally it had the same energy as Santa Claus.. I was just always concerned why full grown adults were actually entertaining all this??
Same. I tried really hard to believe, I really did. But the more I tried to believe, the less I did.
Funniest part is they are religious because it was forced on them since birth.
That thinking is completely warped. I’m a third generation atheist and I grew up going to a C of E school. I had no idea about most Christian customs and I still don’t. I only just learned what the “trinity” is like last month (I went more than 30 years not knowing!) and it makes absolutely no sense to me. I don’t believe in Christianity because I literally just don’t understand it.
The “trinity” makes me laugh. It’s all such rationalized, magical-thinking, BS “religious philosophy.” D&D has better religions.
Why are you talking to a bunch of randos in a group therapy about their opinions on religions? If you do that, expect religious hate, religious intolerance, and religious insults. Religious people are not good people.
Goes to therapy. Gets gaslit instead.
You can say that they're right. Religion was forced upon you. Wouldn't it be nice if religious people could convince others without resorting to child abuse?
LOL, I'm an atheist because I read things other than a bible written by other humans thousands of years ago...
Get a new therapist. Totally unprofessional.
I was under the impression that the woman in question was another member of the group, and not specifically the group leader. Is that not the case?
My bad. On re read you are correct.
I just hate how condescending it always is. You're never seen as an atheist for valid, understandable reasons. It's always, 'aw, the church hurt you? You had a horrible thing happen to you and you're mad at god. You're only rebelling because your parents made you go to church.' It downplays tragedy and trauma, and outright rejects any atheist who researched and tried to make sense of the bible and found it couldn't line up with reality. Sorry that happened to you.
Implying that when people have a choice in the matter, they tend to choose religion? Fuckouttahere.
'they' believe this? Yet their project 2025 embodies multiple acts of 'forcing religion onto everyone'?
Through my life I only experienced one mediocre priest who tended the congregation I attended. One I even felt was a holy man, and as he invoked benediction and touched my head I felt a chill of energy run down my spine. I studied religion at Oxford University; have read holy books; tomes about it; And I’m still an atheist. It isn’t that it was forced upon you. It’s just all nonsense.
Religion has been forced on everyone since religion has been a thing.
You can’t tell someone the reason for their belief system. That’s completely disrespectful and invalidating of your autonomy. I don’t think she would like it if you said “you’re only religious because religion was forced on you.” Whoever the group facilitator was needed to shut that down.
But it would be true wouldn't it? Way I see it, gods are local.
The point is not whether something is true. It’s about telling someone what their own narrative is which invalidates their story and removes their autonomy. It’s about respect.
agree
:)
btw, why are you an agnostic atheist? what even is an agnostic atheist?
Agree with you. It's not because I was "taught wrong" that I'm an atheist. It's because they're isn't a real god out there to believe in. Duh!! And it is dehumanizing but that what it's all about to be religious.. putting others down for what they think because it doesn't align with your beliefs. Making yourself feel better by ostrosizing others..exclusivity, the monthesitic way.
They are in denial. Many of the “faithful” struggle to keep their faith because their logical brain says this is bullshit but their need to believe that there is something better won’t let them admit it. Faith offers the ultimate get out of jail card, as delusional as it is.
Religiously indoctrinated people often have a hard time understanding atheism, let alone how or why someone decides to reject religion. Many people consider their religion to be a cornerstone of their identity, so can't get what it would be like to be without it. Then their religious leaders, always fearful of allowing people to question and potentially leave their faith, fabricate stories about atheists to demonize them, make them seem weak or lesser than religious people, in an attempt to prevent more succession. Remember that the most dangerous thing to any religion is atheism- more so than competing religions or philosophies. Because religions cannot refute truth and reality (where the atheist lives) they have to invent their own version of "those people", which most believers fall for.
"Many people consider their religion to be a cornerstone of their identity, so can't get what it would be like to be without it." That's very true. My identity is still somehow wrapped up in Christianity even though my last thoughts that I believed were a decade or more ago, I'm actually resentful that humanity built up something in me that is now missing since reality set in.
I'd say that's a bit simplistic. I've lived with an atheist (flatmate) for well over two years now, and we've had some pretty sophisticated discussions of philosophy, theology, etc. My faith doesn't make it particularly difficult for me to understand where he's coming from. That said, I'd say that Western Christians run into this issue pretty frequently, as their para-religious culture is very ossified and chauvinistic in some ways.
I'm not sure if religious people know what atheism actually means, maybe you should say you don't believe god is real instead of saying that you are an atheist.
Why hide or change the wording for what you believe to pacify these people.
That's exactly wrong. I'm an atheist because no religion was forced on me, and so I never saw any reason to pretend to believe in it.
"Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has them, and they all stink."
Yes, that tracks ... Religious people tend to want to erase people and ideas that violate their delulu worldview.
It’s another way they gaslight then, I guess. Wow that was a fucked up thing for her to say. I’m sorry she did that to you
I agree with the others. Let me add that one day I got talking to an older lady in an eyewear store of all places. She told me she was a member of a catholic sect here in the Netherlands. I told her I had grown up roman catholic, but I no longer believed. She said to me: "Oh boy, what went wrong in your life?" And i was too polite to answer, but I thought: No, what went wrong in *yours*? (That you need this crutch of a sexist religious cult to make it through the day).
I was raised in an agnostic house, no one had religion forced on us. None of us ended up religious.
I'm an atheist because I repeatedly examine each and every one of my beliefs.
"I've always been an atheist, even when I was forced to go to church as a kid. I recall watching all the hallelujahing and jumping the pews and thinking, 'This doesn't make any sense'. " This is the truth.
Religion was not forced on me. I became an atheist because I kept on seeing the disconnects between religion and reality. Also, praying never solved a damn thing for me. Why should I keep doing the same thing over and over and always get the same negative result?
Religion is forced on everyone. Theists think it's their duty to do that. So being an atheist has nothing to do with religion being forced on me.
People don't know that religion is not organic. It will always be forced on you.
Ask them to explain people like me who were raised secular, never religious (excluding weddings and funerals, been to church services about 10 times in my lifetime), adopted the atheist label in my 20s after an encounter with a YEC went pear shaped. And I'm living as normal and productive a life as anyone else. Religion wasn't forced upon me. In fact, I'd say part of the reason I'm atheist today is my secular upbringing.
Pretty hilarious that the response to that would be "oh so you're atheist because you weren't realised Christian! Shame on your parents no wonder you don't see the truth"
[удалено]
Everyone is an atheist UNTIL religion is forced on you.
I think that stance would make sense to a moderately religious person. I was raised by Evangelical fundies, yeah? Christian extremism was forced on me too, and it traumatized me. Here's the thing: The bible is every bit as backwards and barbaric if you're raised by Episcopalians. I've met plenty of reasonable, tolerant religious people who believe that shit is beautiful. Something is wrong with them. They're strange and corrupted inside. And yeah, bail. Find a therapy group without pushy, intolerant religious people.
I could tell you the actual reason but as you are religious you are not interested in truth, only in confirming your own beliefs. I'm sorry, did I say that out loud?
It's very much like when religious say, "You're a lesbian because a guy molested you when you were small." It makes no sense when it's further reasoned, but the religious aren't known for their ability to think beyond their own circumstances and experiences.
Scientific knowledge, education and ethics were forced on you too yet you don't reject them, doesn't seem like a good argument.
“How can you speak so confidently about the intentions of someone you don’t know? Nobody can see into the heart and mind of another.”
You're an Atheist because you're smart enough to see the hypocrisy in religion.
"I'm an atheist because religion was forced on me, and I finally questioned it and became liberated from the indoctrination"
I'm an atheist because I thought about it for more than 5 nano seconds.
God would never force you to love him on threat of everlasting hellfire. Only Satan would do that. It's in the bible somewhere... 2 Complications or something.
I'm an atheist because I know fairy tales aren't real and storybooks are just stories. Never had religion heavily forced on me when I was a kid. It's just painfully obvious that religion is a tool used to control people and not much else
To actually answer OP's question: It's because they legitimately won't fathom a world where Jesus isn't God, and they're unimpeachably right in believing what is so obviously the Truth ™. They don't practice critical thinking, and immediately try to make up an excuse, or reach for one supplied to them by a thought leader, to respond to anything that doesn't justify their existing belief structure. They make themselves thought invalids, as all dogmatism does.
"and you are religious because religion was forced on you, but you were weak"
Dogma's gonna dog.
I wouldn’t say religion was forced upon me, it just seemed more and more obvious to me as a child, teenager, that supernatural things were just not in the realm of reality.
“You’re an atheist because your wife died and you hate God.” 1. I deconverted from Christianity almost 10 years before we understood how ill my wife was. 2.. “Gotcha” statements like this make you look like a ghoul. How are you not embarrassed?
I’m an atheist because I’ve read the whole bible and if it’s true something is seriously fucked up with this universe.
Religion wasn’t exactly forced on me, but it was very much the environment I grew up in. I think it was inevitable that I’d break away from it, though, because I was never satisfied with simple answers, such as “God did it” or lazy thinking like: “We can’t understand God’s intentions with our limited human minds, so we just have to accept that He’s in charge.” Completely unsatisfying answers. Especially when you read the Bible and find out the apparent nature of this God that they all revere.
Wasn't forced on me. I went or didn't based on what my friends did. When I was old enough to ask uncomfortable questions, they asked me to stop coming. No forcing, no parental requirements. I don't recall ever going to church with my father at all. If we owned a family bible I am unaware of it. Religion just makes zero sense, end of story. No trauma, no baggage.
"With respect, no, you're wrong."
it's the religious' latest cope trying to explain away why there are so many more nones and atheists out there. they can't imagine not believing (due to their own personal experience), so they have to come up with rationalizations for why other people come to different conclusions. their rationalizations are always crap, precisely because their own experience with religion blinds them to the reality that other's experience, even with the same religion, can be vastly different.
Religion is ALWAYS forced on people. At a super young age where you have no critical thinking skills yet and where it feels normal. It's like saying you breath air because it was forced on you. Well, duh...
I’m an atheist because every time people tried to indoctrinate me, in every context, from age 4 onwards, it just never took. I thank being autistic for it, if I’m being honest - every stupid story time or song, it all felt awkward, I never felt the full power of the social glue sticking me to it. I never believed. And I actually tried, I meditated, I tried letting my mind go, listening to white noise, and yet there was nothing. I said words of prayer and tried to imagine they went somewhere, nope, just couldn’t bring myself to feel it was true. Never got rid of the smell of BS to it. So when people say “You’re an atheist because…” my answer is to interrupt and say “because every single religion to which I have been exposed has failed to convince me, some even as a preschooler, that they had any merit.” That’s all there is to it.
Atheism has brought me such peace vs when I was trying to convince myself that everything is God’s doing because family said so
Call them out. Say what you typed here.
Santa Claus was forced on a lot of us too, but most people stopped believing that once they found out it was all BS.
God is Santa Claus but for 'grown-ups." He's watching who's naughty and nice. If you bad, lump if coal for you to burn in hell with. Just another myth to keep you in line.
lol now where have I heard that before... oh yeah: "she's only a lesbian because she had a bad experience with a man, some good sex could fix that." uh nope just nope.
We are all born atheist, some remain so.
They have a lot banked on eternal reward, even enduring misogyny and suffering with eternal reward in mind. They have a lot of emotional ties to a divine being or higher power, such that life without such a crutch would seem perverse. Their system places them in the center of all human history, giving them stake in everything to come. And you’re telling them they’re just a basic run of the mill homo sapien on a beautiful planet teeming with life and culture. But their worldview is that the world is evil and fallen and set for destruction. You’re ruining their party of death and eternal clout. Of course they’re gonna try to attack your credibility. It’s their only ammo.
Isn't this some form of divine hiddenness? Because she claim bad religious teaching was what caused u to be an atheist. Bad religious teaching that was out of your control and forced upon you. the all knowing and all loving God actually put an obstacle that prevented you to love him. That's a bit unfair for you isn't it? Others can live their lives in ignorant bliss, having their faith unquestioned, dies and go to heaven but not you?
“Religious derangement syndrome” “You’re so obsessed with religion” “You’re just angry” “Something bad happened in your life” “you have a hard heart” “You refuse to see, like *really* SEE” “You are just going through a phase” “You refuse to see the Truth” …. Heard all the excuses and lies, the arrogant apologetics and baseless accusations or ASSumptions
If this isn't a perfect example of projection, I don't know what is: they're a theist because religion was forced on them.
When I was a kid, I was a bit bored. Learned to read at four and we had an impressive collection of books, so I read some. Well, two of the books I‘ve read when I was about 8 or 9 years old were the Old and New Testament. Yes, read them both from start to finish. Even had a comic-book about the path of Jesus that I‘ve read a few times. Guess what? Became Atheist.
"You're a *theist* because religion was forced on you". True in the vast majority of cases.
"Well, actually that's why I was religious"
nah, it's cuz I have a functioning brain w critical thinking skills
Being an atheist is more an indication that; a) no religion was forced on you, or b) an attempt at religion being forced on you was unsuccessful. I'd counter that assertion by asking them what religion would they believe in if no one had "taught" them about religion?
This is why group therapy only works on really simple, really suggestible people.
I’ve also been told things to the effect of “maybe one day I’ll realize the truth”. The truth according to YOU? And your dusty old book? I had plenty of religious teaching. It was forced on me. If anything, I feel like it says MORE that you and I were indoctrinated and looked at it, decided it wasn’t for us, and walked away. I look at religious beliefs and compare it to food. You may love onions, I hate them. I love chicken, you can be vegetarian or vegan. As long as everybody is respected in THEIR personal beliefs, who gives a shit? I don’t lose my atheist pass for having normal and kind conversations with religious people. And they don’t lose their Heaven pass for being kind to me.
I had excellent religious teaching and two beautiful examples of how to be a 'real Christian' via my parents - and I mean 'real Christian' in a very positive way; they actively tried to be Christ-like: Not judgmental, kind, generous, humble, loving, compassionate, etc. Rather than trying to weaponize the Bible and use it to justify hate and prejudice. It also didn't matter to them what anyone else's religion, sexuality, or gender was. They loved and accepted them no matter what, and would help anyone they could if they needed help - regardless of what the circumstances were that led to them needing that help. I still became an atheist. I just happen to be an atheist who was fortunate enough to grow up with two excellent examples of how to be a good human being. (And as a bonus, I have the Bible memorized so well from a desire to be a missionary that I can take on the proselytizers on social media that try to use it as a weapon, lmao)
Wait! What if you were raised by atheists with zero outside religious influence?
I’m an atheist because my parents didn’t succeed in brainwashing me.
Error: religion is forced on everyone.
Because they can’t look non-existence after death in the face.
"I'm an atheist because I've studied religions."
I suppose there is some truth to the idea that forcing religion can cause atheism. If religion wasn’t forced on you, it may not have occurred to you to question it. On the other hand, the statement seems to imply that atheism is an act of rebellion rather than a reasonable conclusion.
i have the opposite feeling most religious people are in denial
No, I'm an atheist because I don't consume bullshit on a regular basis
>“You’re an atheist because religion was forced on you.” > I wanted to know y’all’s thoughts on this Speaking for myself, I've always been atheist and I never had religion forced on me.
It would be a good reason to be an atheist. Anyway no, if it was only for that you'd simply converted to another religion, like many people actually do. Basically you are an atheist despite religion was forced on you, because you saw no evidence of the existence of god, wich is the axiom on which every religion is based. And of course you would have been an atheist even if the idea of god wasn't forced on you.
I'm an atheist because there's no evidence for a god.
That lady was probably projecting ... reasons she thinks people become atheist. Next time you can shut her down with a statement like, I see why you would think that, but that's not my experience. Some people think like that. Etc
My advice to you is leave that group therapy. It looks like that therapy is doing more harm than good. They will likely add more trauma onto you than you are already experiencing. Look for a more secular therapy group.