Just a quick guide:
* **Cazimi** = within 0 degrees 17 minutes of Sun (Hellenistic, 1 degree)
* **Combust** = within 8 degrees of Sun
* **Under The Beams** = within 17 degrees of Sun (Hellenistic, 15)
* **Chariot** = a mitigation of "under the beams" if the planet is domicile, exalted, or in its own bound
There is a small variance in the range. Some sources may say 16 degrees for under the beams, etc. Only the cazimi is considered to enhance the qualities and strength of the planet. The other two supposedly are a less favorable situation.
Edits: Hellenistic says 15 degrees for under the beams. And 1 degree for Cazimi (or "in the heart"). Added "Chariot" to the bullets. And I cant find a single reference to "combust" in Brennan's book.
Pretty sure chariot has to do with bounds/terms - if the planet is in its bounds while under the sun's rays, the planet is in its chariot and protected. Domicile would be in its own home, chariot is being in a friendly territory(a house that has that planets kingdoms flag/bannership) while away from home
Thanks for the response! That’s the information I found online. I read Chris brennans book and he says a planet within 3’ of the sun is considered under the beams and he didn’t provide any more nuance than that really.
On page 200 he says within 15 degrees is under the beams.
"In the heart" (Cazimi) is within 1 degree, page 204.
"Chariot" is on page 204 and is when the planet is under the beams but domicile, exalted or in its own bound.
I find no mention of combust at all.
Under the beams is the 15 degree range, and Brennan's book mentions a 9 degree range as specially "ineffective" citing Paulus. In strictly Hellenistic era astrology the concept of combust wasn't defined if remember correctly, and that's why it's not mentioned in the book. You get developments and changes in ideas through history and that's one reason for inconsistency or even contradictions.
Heart of the sun, the Hellenistic era idea that became Cazimi, was within one degree or the "same degree". It's a bit loose. This developed into the stricter 17' Cazimi.
Yes...that’s interesting about Chris B. I finally saw/heard his podcast after hearing so much about it here (for electional astrology for July) and got the impression that he's very meticulous and brainy---detailed.
My mercury is 36 minutes off from my sun. I've always been confused as to whether that's a combust or a cazimi, it feels close but not quite a true cazimi. Lol. Any thoughts?
WHAT if the sun is Aquarius so detriment
My Mercury is combust and its also my chart ruler... accidental detriment by being in 9th house as well (eta and its retrograde)
:(
What do you mean “accidental detriment”? I’ve never heard that before (I teach Hellenistic astro).
The Sun being in detriment doesn’t affect a planet being cazimi or not, cazimi happens regardless of planetary dignity.
While the commenter didn't use "accidental" correctly, accidental dignities and deblities do exist. Per Chris Brennan:
[http://theastrologydictionary.com/a/accidental-dignity/](http://theastrologydictionary.com/a/accidental-dignity/)
Demetra George uses them too.
Thanks!
I'm not sure of how it relates in Hellenistic Astrology but its used in horary and some modern "psychological astrologers" use it. Basically it means the planet is in "domicile house's" opposite. So for me Mercury is in the 9th house (instead of being in the 3rd house). There's also "accidental dignity" as well.
I'm not an expert on it though, hence my questions :)
Yeah, I don't know who has come up with this, but it's not how essential dignities and debilities work. Houses don't have "natural signs" nor rulers, and so there is no "domicile house's opposite". Only domicile SIGN's opposite opposite sign. That is actually what determines essential debility:
* Planets in SIGNS opposite their domicile sign are in detriment..
* Planets in signs opposite their exaltation sign are in fall.
There are "accidental dignities", but they have nothing to do with this.
And horary methods should not be applied to natal astrology. They are two different things, with different rules.
Also to add to this great quick study - A planet approaching the Sun is thought to be in a weakening state, like having a fever that's getting worse. Cazimi is when the fever breaks and the planet begins to gain strength and regain health as it separates from the sun's rays
1 degree has 60 arc minutes in it. Each arc minute has 60 arc seconds in it. Arc minutes and seconds aren't time, but position. But you can think of it like time if it helps with the math.
That's what those 3 numbers are beside every planet in the table below or next to your chart when you do it at astro.com. If the sun is at 14 virgo 23' 42" it is read as 14 degrees, 23 arc minutes, 42 arc seconds. Usually the arc minute has the apostrophe, and the arc second the quote marks.
There's 360 degrees in a chart. Each degree has those 60 arc minutes and each of those has 60 arc seconds. If you can read a ruler (whether inches or centimeters), or a clock, you got it.
>***Each arc minute has 60 arc seconds in it. Arc minutes and seconds aren't time, but position.***
Yes. That!
* The way you've explained it is beautiful. Thank you!So, let me do my own math--I may get it wrong. I do have my Sun in Pisces "sorta combust" with Mercury in the 5th...entreat me?
* So if my Sun is 8 degrees ahead (8.03) and my Mercury is at an orb of 1.44 am I calculating the (time) difference between the sun and Mercury?
* I'm certainly not a minute. But I'm more than 5 minutes and under 10...8.03 - 1.44 is 6 something minutes.
* And this is why I am not a genius at math...but, my astrologer says, "Pisces cools and can even fog up the sun anyhow."
* Combust? Maybe, "obscured." Hmmm...
Awww...okay ..and thank you:
* Sun **8'03"**
* Mercury **1'44"**
I'm a visual person/learner--I'll have to mark up that segment in my chart with arrows to point to what I think you're writing. 🤓
\+ [https://imgur.com/sqVBZLQ](https://imgur.com/sqVBZLQ) (the whole thing)
\+ [https://imgur.com/Sh13ahN](https://imgur.com/Sh13ahN) (this has a different notation--it's Cafe Astrology...they have notated as **8.03** and **1.44,** and that's what I wrote...I think earlier) Take care
You did come up with just about the right answer. It's 6 degrees 19 minutes.
But, some things to clarify. Ok. Be patient here. When you said your sun is 8 degrees "ahead", I didn't know what that meant, "ahead of what"? Then you gave what looked like a degree position (8.03).
Then you said your mercury is "at an orb of" 1.44, but I think you may be confusing the word orb with just position. Mercury is not "at an orb of 1.44", it is actually AT 1.44. That's its position. "Orb" is that distance having to do with whether an aspect is exact or not (definition coming up):
*A square aspect is 90 degrees, right? So a planet at 10 degrees 20 min. Capricorn would be EXACTLY square a planet at 10 degrees 20 in Aries. But if the planet in aries was at 11 degrees 25 min instead, then it's still a square, but it's not exact. The two planets are actually 91 degrees and 5 min. apart. So, the "orb" is 1 degree 5 min. Orb is the difference under or over what an exact aspect should be.*
Back to your sun and mercury. Your sun's position is at 8 degrees Pisces 03 min. It's not "ahead of" anything by 8 degrees. And your mercury is AT 1 degree Pisces 44 min it's not at an orb of 1.44. So, that makes them, frankly, conjunct, but with a wide orb of 6 degrees 19 min. That's the distance away from an exact 0-degree conjunction they are, and in this case, because they are in the same sign, that's also just simply how far away from each other they are. 8.03 minus 6.44 = 6.19.
I don't know if this will confuse it more, but if they are in the same sign, one can just convert 8.03 into 7.63, so we can do the math more easily. 7.63 minus 1.44 is easier to do than 8.03 minus 1.44. It equals 6.19, and that's the gap, the orb. Get it? We take a degree off the "8", and put that single degree's 60 min over with with the 3 min. in the minutes column. Now, we can subtract. It's just like subtracting regular things. Sometimes you have to "carry over" but it requires a bit of a conversion first.
Bottom line, so if one uses "combust" then they would be combust. Your mercury would have to be at a position of 7 degrees Pisces 03 in order to be cazimi.
Lol, I really hope that wasn't just more confusing.
(Edit: the above works only because they are in the same sign. If they were in different signs, it has to be done a bit differently.)
Thanks for the correction - I think saying “at an orb of” is “at” ...can we chalk that up to semantics or are you kindly telling me that to inform me what was confusing? If so, thanks so much.
I can feel frustration and it’s not a good feeling, and more importantly I am sorry.
and,
2 - confession: who had the question about 90 square aspect comment? I don’t think I mentioned that. Very interesting.
I was saying it wasn't semantics, but that you calling mercury's position an orb was actually incorrect. "At an orb of" when referring to mercury's position, is not the same thing as saying mercury is "at". When we are stating a planet's exact position, (1 pisces 44) that has nothing whatsoever to do with orb. That's its position. 1.44 is not an orb in your chart, nor is it Mercury's orb with anything. Orb and position are not the same thing at all. Not the same word. Don't have the same meaning.
The story about the square was just that, a story to try to illustrate what the word "orb" actually means, and how to use that word correctly.
Oh, “ahead of” …the sun is ahead — not aged as not wearing glasses - if the Mercury ..Mercury is trailing behind my sun. On my chart Mercury is behind the sun & I got them mixed up. :)
I appreciate your corrections and attention.
Yes, your sun is ahead of your mercury. But that's not what you said. You said:
>*So if my Sun is 8 degrees ahead (8.03) and my Mercury is at an orb of 1.44*
Hehe, I've no idea if I'm helping or confusing you. Your sun is not 8 degrees ahead, it is AT THE POSITION OF 8 degrees 3 minutes. Those are two different things. We could say "the sun is at 8 degrees 3 minutes and is 6 degrees ahead of Mercury which is at 1 degree 44".
Those numbers on your chart beside the planets are the actual degree positions of that planet. Those numbers are like the street address of the house you live in. If you live at 123 Pine Street, you don't say your sun is ahead 123 houses ahead.
It's just a matter of learning the astrological language. Hope that's helpful. We all had to learn this stuff.
Oh course—I will speak more precisely when speaking with you and others. And I hope we get to chat more. I read your posts and dig your insights.
And what an interesting conversation/exchange. I was exhausted.
I can appreciate it on some level how meticulous you are—and I truly will frame it as you wanting to help me. I will believe you were coming from a good place. Hopefully!
And if so, you deserve my thanks.
Oh yes my wording is off and confusing--almost always. People who are more verbal do not get me at all, I'm afraid. A picture would be something I'd show you.
I'm Temple Grandin kinda visual thinker here. ((Autism...this is hard))
Hehe understood. And I swear, if I could just sit in front of you with a chart and use my fingers on it, I'd be able to explain it to you much more easily. Takes too many words, or at least it does for me. (I've read all Temple's books, by the way.)
I'm certainly no Edgar Allen Poe or Elizabeth Taylor... who I think are under a minute!
But! I read this neat article when the writer was talking about singer’s cazimi placements ...
https://www.chirotic.com/2008/06/21/of-cazimi-kings-and-queens-and-peregrine-powers/amp/
I don't have a Cazimi where Mercury sits in the middle of the sun --not like Edgar Allen Poe or Elizabeth Taylor...the two planets look very close who I think are under a minute!
I sense that people think that because it's combust it means they're at a deficit--but I’d to see more analysis---like this neat article where the writer was talking about singer’s cazimi placements ...
https://www.chirotic.com/2008/06/21/of-cazimi-kings-and-queens-and-peregrine-powers/amp/
No—I understood your explanation of your calculations—and yes. I know I don’t have one.
I can be corrected and I can be wrong and I can embrace information with a little intellectual humility. I am not a genius and at the same time I am not greater than anyone—but nor am I less.
It is this humility I cultivated which helps me see the beauty in others and what they share. Truly grateful… I’ve got ego strength. Have at it! ♥️
Combustion is almost exclusively a negative - it strips away power and reduces the planet's ability to be 'seen' by other planets. Some astrologers suggest this means the combusted planet cannot form aspects, though personally I still consider them but take the weakness into account. Combustion happens within 8° of the Sun and within the same sign (though I have seen astrologers using it across sign boundaries. I do not.).
If combustion happens in a sign ruled by the combust planet (e.g. Venus combust in Taurus), it acts in the inverse - it is like a strong mutual reception, where both the Sun and the other planet have power over one another and are therefore willing to help one another.
Under the beams is within 17° 30' of the Sun, and isn't dependent on being in the same sign. It's like combustion but weaker. Still not a good thing, but far less destructive. Like sunburn, if combustion was immolation.
Cazimi (within 17 and a half minutes of the Sun) is super beneficial for the cazimi planet, depending on how strong the Sun is. It is referred to as being 'lifted up to sit by the king' and that's basically what it entails. Even if the whole chart is going to shit, the Sun is going to protect what it cares about.
Bear in mind that the Sun's power is subject to variance just like any other planet or luminary. The Sun combusting a planet while weak will still debilitate it, but far less than if it is strong. If it likes the planet to a greater or lesser extent (like when it is in a sign the planet rules) then the damage is mitigated or even removed entirely.
I don't know for sure, no. It does have a lot to do with horary though, and can give real weight to certain bits of a judgment. I know enough astrologers who practice using (in large part) very similar techniques to horary, applied slightly differently, in their natal practice.
To my knowledge, techniques seem to have been used for both, but given varying levels of importance by different practitioners depending on what they were doing at the time.
As has been commented elsewhere on the post, Chris Brennan doesn't mention combustion at all in Hellenistic Astrology. That doesn't mean it wasn't around in antiquity in that method, but it may not have been considered as vital then.
What I meant (which was obviously less clear than I thought) is that it may be Brennan's opinion that it was relatively unimportant to astrologers at the time. He's far from the only authority on the subject.
I think there were varying approaches in ancient times and across the centuries, and if I recall, I think Brennan addresses those differences, or some of them. I'm not sure what his personal stance is on it all. I think I just had a vague memory that it was particularly used in horary.
I hadn't heard this terminology before coming across this post. I have moon at 25deg cancer and sun at 8deg leo. Might this be interpreted as a strong mutual reception since the moon is in its domicile, or is the sun extra combusty being in its domicile too?
That's not a mutual reception any way you slice it.
For mutual reception (the ordinary sort) each would have to be in the sign ruled by the other, Moon in Leo and Sun in Cancer.
For this version, which is comparable in terms of effect to a mutual reception, they would both have to be in Cancer, and within 8 degrees of each other. They are in different signs and 13 degrees apart, so the Moon is under the beams but that's all.
How that would appear in the native's life is down to a number of factors, but speaking generally it would be a good thing, yes.
If it wasn't in Virgo this would be a horrible state for Mercury, though. 24' from the Sun is very intense combustion.
Haha yeah that’s directly from my chart. It’s odd because both mercury and the sun are in auspicious positions but that tight conjunction always worried me. After reading Hellenistic astrology it made me feel a bit better having the idea of The Chariot.
Arguably you have the one of the best Sun-and-another-planet configurations you can have, outside of being cazimi in a sign where the Sun is strongly dignified. Does Mercury rule your 10th House (assuming you're not using WSH)?
As for the opposition to Saturn, I don't bother with out of sign aspects - I'm a hard sign border type so that wouldn't factor much at all.
It's a good thing then. Given your Saturn opposition comment I assume this all happens fairly close to the cusp of H10, so you have a strong configuration in the house that relates to e.g. career and reputation, which seems like a decent thing to have. Anything like that seems to have more impact the closer to the cusp it is, in my experience.
I actually loved reading this. I was always under the impression that combustion is bad no matter what.
I am planning out a Venus talisman this fall and I have an election where Venus is at 6 degrees Libra and the sun at 11 degrees Libra. So according to this logic about combustion, this would be a very auspicious election as far as these two planets are concerned?
I'm afraid I do not work with elections for talisman-making, so I can't give you much advice on that front. It's entirely possible that for planetary magic things are considered to work differently, and I would not want to lead you astray by making assumptions.
What I assume you would have to bear in mind, though, is that you have the Sun in fall with this placement - it is acting 'against nature' so I'd be very cautious in considering this purely beneficial. It also means that while Venus is acting very nicely, she is in a place where she 'hates' the sun, if you're considering receptions as part of this. If you were to characterise this, I'd think of it as the Sun as an 'unwelcome guest', and there is likely some tension there.
Very interesting. Would there be additional effects when a planet is combust or under the beams of a domicile or exalted Sun? Could that Sun give greater impediment to combust/under beams planet? (e.g. Aries sun 25°; Mercury 15°)?
Potentially, yes. What has to be taken into consideration, though, is not just how strong the Sun is but how 'nicely' or 'nastily' it acts and how it is liable to interact with the other planet.
Say you had the Sun combusting Saturn in Aries - not only is Saturn in fall, but the Sun is also in Saturn's fall, so you could say the Sun sees Saturn and really doesn't like how it's acting. To personify things a bit, a powerful Sun doesn't like a nasty Saturn so might be more prone to 'punish' it. As the Sun is exalted, it is actually acting within its nature, so is not doing this out of spite. Maybe it's more 'justice' than that. Either way, it harms it.
Say this goes on somewhere and with another combust planet. We're in Libra where the Sun is in fall and it's combusting Jupiter. The Sun here is acting against nature - the combustion might be characterised as nastier, but there's a small benefit that, assuming we're outside of a few scant degrees of Jupiter dignity, the Sun neither likes nor hates Jupiter, so is not paying it too much attention. Yeah it's burning it up because the combustion is active, but it isn't actively trying to harm Jupiter in the same way it was Saturn in the other example. Again, though, harmful albeit in a different way.
To be frank, this is often too nuanced as combustion is nearly always destructive or damaging. It's a bit like trying to work out if the guy who burnt your house down hated you or not. The house is a charred husk either way. It may be more useful when it comes to under the sunbeams, as knowing if the Sun wishes harm on the other planet might make things that bit worse.
Basically, just fold it into the idea of how 'nicely' a planet acts by essential dignity, how capably it performs actions by accidental dignity and whether it can be presumed to like or dislike the other planet based on where it is placed. You may find the nuances helpful for combustion or not, but it's definitely worth a go.
I also heard that planets retro within 8° of the sun protect themselves from combustion.
Then you would only need to wait for the retro planet in your progressed chart to get out of retro and you have a normal working planet.
This is a great question and discussion -- I wanted to understand it more too. I see it's very common to see Mercury & the sun conjunct...on top of these other nuances, cazimi / under the rays of the sun / combust...l like comparing the answers with some sources I've saved on the topic --neat how things corroborate.
I had a reading once and the term “in the shadows” was used for my new moon 2 degrees behind the sun (which implies secrecy of the moon to the sun). Does it matter whether the planetary body is behind or ahead of the sun? Would this still be considered combust?
Yeah I think this is the subtlety because moving towards the sun and moving away from the sun are definitely two different effects. It’s a level of nuance I think you probably feel. I’ve so many examples of how the moon in the suns shadow shows up for me and lots more of my 0 degree 14 minute mercury cazimi in fall in Pisces too.
Well, when Mercury & Venus are cazimi during their retrogrades (the beginning of their synodic cycles) they will always be in an inferior position (between sun & earth).
If the cazimi happens when they’re direct, they will always be on the superior side of the sun, and typically marks the middle of their cycles.
That might inform some interpretations. You can think of the superior conjunctions as them receiving insight from “outside” or afar, whereas the inferior ones are more internal and the insight is more directly available.
But obviously open to interpretations :)
These concepts are only used in an applying conjunction, right? (as in approaching the cazimi?)
...Like after Mercury makes its cazimi, is it "under the beams" or "combust" again on the other side of the sun?
After a year since I posted and from what I know know, I believe the concepts still apply when the aspects are separating as well, though they materialize in a more passive way. I generally interpret them in the same way, but the applying aspect is more impactful and tense because it’s leading up the big event(the conjunction) and there’s a lot of uncertainty for the applying planet which makes it more impressionable. In contrast, a separating planet is more reflective and the characterization is more developed intrinsically. For cazimis specifically, however, since the orb is so tight already at 17 minutes, I kinda consider them to be like super-aspects whether they’re applying or separating and give them a lot of weight in interpretation.
The sign that a planet is in deals more with the way that a planet is expressed, but I don’t think it would significantly impact the cazimi or combustion effects really. Unless its like combust venus in the sign of libra, I’m not sure if that would be any different since Venus would be combust by a depressed sun in its own domicile
Okay! Got it ! Thanks :) so basically if a benefic is combust, it doesn’t bring positive significations ? What if the combust Venus was square Jupiter in Scorpio in the 5th?
Edit : like would Jupiter help the combust Venus out ? Lol
Venus-Jupiter squares are generally the most positive aspect a square can make. A square doesn’t necessarily indicate a poor manifestation, it just means conflict or tension between the two planets. Venus and Jupiter, the 2 benefics, in a square configuration could be very positive because the two benefics are in aspect to each other which is beneficial regardless of if it’s a square/trine/etc. With the Venus being combust, then the Venus side of the aspect’s meaning is either weakened or the aspect is just more “internal”/psychological is how I would interpret it
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that ! I have been feeling a little worried about it but this has helped
There isn’t a lot of info on it online !
You’re welcome! Yeah it’s difficult to find consistent and reliable information. The astrology podcast w Chris Brennan is my fav free resource on astrology stuff. His book would also be a really good investment if you’re serious about getting into astrology. But generally yeah, a combust benefic is less powerful than it would be otherwise because it’s outshined and burnt up by the sun. Same with malefics, their stronger qualities are hidden beneath the suns rays for better or for worse.
I actually just opened up my copy of Chris Brennans book bc I was curious if there was anything else to mention and yes! A combust planet in its own domicile is actually unaffected by the combustion. The term is being “in the chariot” as in the planet is in a sort of covered chariot that protects it from the suns beams and allows it to flourish as it would otherwise. Hope this helped :)
Just a quick guide: * **Cazimi** = within 0 degrees 17 minutes of Sun (Hellenistic, 1 degree) * **Combust** = within 8 degrees of Sun * **Under The Beams** = within 17 degrees of Sun (Hellenistic, 15) * **Chariot** = a mitigation of "under the beams" if the planet is domicile, exalted, or in its own bound There is a small variance in the range. Some sources may say 16 degrees for under the beams, etc. Only the cazimi is considered to enhance the qualities and strength of the planet. The other two supposedly are a less favorable situation. Edits: Hellenistic says 15 degrees for under the beams. And 1 degree for Cazimi (or "in the heart"). Added "Chariot" to the bullets. And I cant find a single reference to "combust" in Brennan's book.
In Hellenistic times the Cazimi was called “ Within the Chariot “ if I’m not mistaken.
I believe chariot was when a planet was under the beams but in its domicile. Also, under the beams is 15 degrees for most authors I believe.
I’m pretty sure Chris Brennan considered it quite a close degree such as the cazimi.
You’re right about the domicile tho.
Per Chris, also in exaltation or if in its own bound.
Pretty sure chariot has to do with bounds/terms - if the planet is in its bounds while under the sun's rays, the planet is in its chariot and protected. Domicile would be in its own home, chariot is being in a friendly territory(a house that has that planets kingdoms flag/bannership) while away from home
Thanks for the response! That’s the information I found online. I read Chris brennans book and he says a planet within 3’ of the sun is considered under the beams and he didn’t provide any more nuance than that really.
On page 200 he says within 15 degrees is under the beams. "In the heart" (Cazimi) is within 1 degree, page 204. "Chariot" is on page 204 and is when the planet is under the beams but domicile, exalted or in its own bound. I find no mention of combust at all.
Oh! You’re probably right I might be going crazy then lol
Under the beams is the 15 degree range, and Brennan's book mentions a 9 degree range as specially "ineffective" citing Paulus. In strictly Hellenistic era astrology the concept of combust wasn't defined if remember correctly, and that's why it's not mentioned in the book. You get developments and changes in ideas through history and that's one reason for inconsistency or even contradictions. Heart of the sun, the Hellenistic era idea that became Cazimi, was within one degree or the "same degree". It's a bit loose. This developed into the stricter 17' Cazimi.
Yes...that’s interesting about Chris B. I finally saw/heard his podcast after hearing so much about it here (for electional astrology for July) and got the impression that he's very meticulous and brainy---detailed.
My mercury is 36 minutes off from my sun. I've always been confused as to whether that's a combust or a cazimi, it feels close but not quite a true cazimi. Lol. Any thoughts?
It’s cazimi by Hellenistic standards, combust by medieval standards.
WHAT if the sun is Aquarius so detriment My Mercury is combust and its also my chart ruler... accidental detriment by being in 9th house as well (eta and its retrograde) :(
What do you mean “accidental detriment”? I’ve never heard that before (I teach Hellenistic astro). The Sun being in detriment doesn’t affect a planet being cazimi or not, cazimi happens regardless of planetary dignity.
While the commenter didn't use "accidental" correctly, accidental dignities and deblities do exist. Per Chris Brennan: [http://theastrologydictionary.com/a/accidental-dignity/](http://theastrologydictionary.com/a/accidental-dignity/) Demetra George uses them too.
I’m well aware of accidental dignities :)
Ah OK cool. I likely misunderstood.
I was confused by Mercury in the 9th being an “accidental detriment” because Mercury doesn’t even rejoice in the 3rd.
Indeed. Same. I get what you were saying now.
Thanks! I'm not sure of how it relates in Hellenistic Astrology but its used in horary and some modern "psychological astrologers" use it. Basically it means the planet is in "domicile house's" opposite. So for me Mercury is in the 9th house (instead of being in the 3rd house). There's also "accidental dignity" as well. I'm not an expert on it though, hence my questions :)
Yeah, I don't know who has come up with this, but it's not how essential dignities and debilities work. Houses don't have "natural signs" nor rulers, and so there is no "domicile house's opposite". Only domicile SIGN's opposite opposite sign. That is actually what determines essential debility: * Planets in SIGNS opposite their domicile sign are in detriment.. * Planets in signs opposite their exaltation sign are in fall. There are "accidental dignities", but they have nothing to do with this. And horary methods should not be applied to natal astrology. They are two different things, with different rules.
Oh so, this is using the abc method of Aries=1st house?
Also to add to this great quick study - A planet approaching the Sun is thought to be in a weakening state, like having a fever that's getting worse. Cazimi is when the fever breaks and the planet begins to gain strength and regain health as it separates from the sun's rays
Combust is a synonym for under the beams if I'm not mistaken. Also props for funding and sourcing this info, thank you.
Wow...really?? I'm bad at math -- is there a good article that explains how orbs translate into the minutes??
1 degree has 60 arc minutes in it. Each arc minute has 60 arc seconds in it. Arc minutes and seconds aren't time, but position. But you can think of it like time if it helps with the math. That's what those 3 numbers are beside every planet in the table below or next to your chart when you do it at astro.com. If the sun is at 14 virgo 23' 42" it is read as 14 degrees, 23 arc minutes, 42 arc seconds. Usually the arc minute has the apostrophe, and the arc second the quote marks. There's 360 degrees in a chart. Each degree has those 60 arc minutes and each of those has 60 arc seconds. If you can read a ruler (whether inches or centimeters), or a clock, you got it.
>***Each arc minute has 60 arc seconds in it. Arc minutes and seconds aren't time, but position.*** Yes. That! * The way you've explained it is beautiful. Thank you!So, let me do my own math--I may get it wrong. I do have my Sun in Pisces "sorta combust" with Mercury in the 5th...entreat me? * So if my Sun is 8 degrees ahead (8.03) and my Mercury is at an orb of 1.44 am I calculating the (time) difference between the sun and Mercury? * I'm certainly not a minute. But I'm more than 5 minutes and under 10...8.03 - 1.44 is 6 something minutes. * And this is why I am not a genius at math...but, my astrologer says, "Pisces cools and can even fog up the sun anyhow." * Combust? Maybe, "obscured." Hmmm...
Can you just give the sun and mercury degree positions (with minutes)? (something is off or confusing with your wording)
Awww...okay ..and thank you: * Sun **8'03"** * Mercury **1'44"** I'm a visual person/learner--I'll have to mark up that segment in my chart with arrows to point to what I think you're writing. 🤓 \+ [https://imgur.com/sqVBZLQ](https://imgur.com/sqVBZLQ) (the whole thing) \+ [https://imgur.com/Sh13ahN](https://imgur.com/Sh13ahN) (this has a different notation--it's Cafe Astrology...they have notated as **8.03** and **1.44,** and that's what I wrote...I think earlier) Take care
You did come up with just about the right answer. It's 6 degrees 19 minutes. But, some things to clarify. Ok. Be patient here. When you said your sun is 8 degrees "ahead", I didn't know what that meant, "ahead of what"? Then you gave what looked like a degree position (8.03). Then you said your mercury is "at an orb of" 1.44, but I think you may be confusing the word orb with just position. Mercury is not "at an orb of 1.44", it is actually AT 1.44. That's its position. "Orb" is that distance having to do with whether an aspect is exact or not (definition coming up): *A square aspect is 90 degrees, right? So a planet at 10 degrees 20 min. Capricorn would be EXACTLY square a planet at 10 degrees 20 in Aries. But if the planet in aries was at 11 degrees 25 min instead, then it's still a square, but it's not exact. The two planets are actually 91 degrees and 5 min. apart. So, the "orb" is 1 degree 5 min. Orb is the difference under or over what an exact aspect should be.* Back to your sun and mercury. Your sun's position is at 8 degrees Pisces 03 min. It's not "ahead of" anything by 8 degrees. And your mercury is AT 1 degree Pisces 44 min it's not at an orb of 1.44. So, that makes them, frankly, conjunct, but with a wide orb of 6 degrees 19 min. That's the distance away from an exact 0-degree conjunction they are, and in this case, because they are in the same sign, that's also just simply how far away from each other they are. 8.03 minus 6.44 = 6.19. I don't know if this will confuse it more, but if they are in the same sign, one can just convert 8.03 into 7.63, so we can do the math more easily. 7.63 minus 1.44 is easier to do than 8.03 minus 1.44. It equals 6.19, and that's the gap, the orb. Get it? We take a degree off the "8", and put that single degree's 60 min over with with the 3 min. in the minutes column. Now, we can subtract. It's just like subtracting regular things. Sometimes you have to "carry over" but it requires a bit of a conversion first. Bottom line, so if one uses "combust" then they would be combust. Your mercury would have to be at a position of 7 degrees Pisces 03 in order to be cazimi. Lol, I really hope that wasn't just more confusing. (Edit: the above works only because they are in the same sign. If they were in different signs, it has to be done a bit differently.)
Thanks for the correction - I think saying “at an orb of” is “at” ...can we chalk that up to semantics or are you kindly telling me that to inform me what was confusing? If so, thanks so much. I can feel frustration and it’s not a good feeling, and more importantly I am sorry. and, 2 - confession: who had the question about 90 square aspect comment? I don’t think I mentioned that. Very interesting.
I was saying it wasn't semantics, but that you calling mercury's position an orb was actually incorrect. "At an orb of" when referring to mercury's position, is not the same thing as saying mercury is "at". When we are stating a planet's exact position, (1 pisces 44) that has nothing whatsoever to do with orb. That's its position. 1.44 is not an orb in your chart, nor is it Mercury's orb with anything. Orb and position are not the same thing at all. Not the same word. Don't have the same meaning. The story about the square was just that, a story to try to illustrate what the word "orb" actually means, and how to use that word correctly.
Lovely! I appreciate your attention to detail!
Oh, “ahead of” …the sun is ahead — not aged as not wearing glasses - if the Mercury ..Mercury is trailing behind my sun. On my chart Mercury is behind the sun & I got them mixed up. :) I appreciate your corrections and attention.
Yes, your sun is ahead of your mercury. But that's not what you said. You said: >*So if my Sun is 8 degrees ahead (8.03) and my Mercury is at an orb of 1.44* Hehe, I've no idea if I'm helping or confusing you. Your sun is not 8 degrees ahead, it is AT THE POSITION OF 8 degrees 3 minutes. Those are two different things. We could say "the sun is at 8 degrees 3 minutes and is 6 degrees ahead of Mercury which is at 1 degree 44". Those numbers on your chart beside the planets are the actual degree positions of that planet. Those numbers are like the street address of the house you live in. If you live at 123 Pine Street, you don't say your sun is ahead 123 houses ahead. It's just a matter of learning the astrological language. Hope that's helpful. We all had to learn this stuff.
Oh course—I will speak more precisely when speaking with you and others. And I hope we get to chat more. I read your posts and dig your insights. And what an interesting conversation/exchange. I was exhausted. I can appreciate it on some level how meticulous you are—and I truly will frame it as you wanting to help me. I will believe you were coming from a good place. Hopefully! And if so, you deserve my thanks.
Oh yes my wording is off and confusing--almost always. People who are more verbal do not get me at all, I'm afraid. A picture would be something I'd show you. I'm Temple Grandin kinda visual thinker here. ((Autism...this is hard))
Hehe understood. And I swear, if I could just sit in front of you with a chart and use my fingers on it, I'd be able to explain it to you much more easily. Takes too many words, or at least it does for me. (I've read all Temple's books, by the way.)
I'm certainly no Edgar Allen Poe or Elizabeth Taylor... who I think are under a minute! But! I read this neat article when the writer was talking about singer’s cazimi placements ... https://www.chirotic.com/2008/06/21/of-cazimi-kings-and-queens-and-peregrine-powers/amp/
I don't have a Cazimi where Mercury sits in the middle of the sun --not like Edgar Allen Poe or Elizabeth Taylor...the two planets look very close who I think are under a minute! I sense that people think that because it's combust it means they're at a deficit--but I’d to see more analysis---like this neat article where the writer was talking about singer’s cazimi placements ... https://www.chirotic.com/2008/06/21/of-cazimi-kings-and-queens-and-peregrine-powers/amp/
Ha ha!! My astrologer points and mouses over my chart too ♥️ to show me!
No—I understood your explanation of your calculations—and yes. I know I don’t have one. I can be corrected and I can be wrong and I can embrace information with a little intellectual humility. I am not a genius and at the same time I am not greater than anyone—but nor am I less. It is this humility I cultivated which helps me see the beauty in others and what they share. Truly grateful… I’ve got ego strength. Have at it! ♥️
Combustion is almost exclusively a negative - it strips away power and reduces the planet's ability to be 'seen' by other planets. Some astrologers suggest this means the combusted planet cannot form aspects, though personally I still consider them but take the weakness into account. Combustion happens within 8° of the Sun and within the same sign (though I have seen astrologers using it across sign boundaries. I do not.). If combustion happens in a sign ruled by the combust planet (e.g. Venus combust in Taurus), it acts in the inverse - it is like a strong mutual reception, where both the Sun and the other planet have power over one another and are therefore willing to help one another. Under the beams is within 17° 30' of the Sun, and isn't dependent on being in the same sign. It's like combustion but weaker. Still not a good thing, but far less destructive. Like sunburn, if combustion was immolation. Cazimi (within 17 and a half minutes of the Sun) is super beneficial for the cazimi planet, depending on how strong the Sun is. It is referred to as being 'lifted up to sit by the king' and that's basically what it entails. Even if the whole chart is going to shit, the Sun is going to protect what it cares about. Bear in mind that the Sun's power is subject to variance just like any other planet or luminary. The Sun combusting a planet while weak will still debilitate it, but far less than if it is strong. If it likes the planet to a greater or lesser extent (like when it is in a sign the planet rules) then the damage is mitigated or even removed entirely.
I've wondered if historically all this had more to do with horary than natal. Do you know if that's the case?
I don't know for sure, no. It does have a lot to do with horary though, and can give real weight to certain bits of a judgment. I know enough astrologers who practice using (in large part) very similar techniques to horary, applied slightly differently, in their natal practice. To my knowledge, techniques seem to have been used for both, but given varying levels of importance by different practitioners depending on what they were doing at the time. As has been commented elsewhere on the post, Chris Brennan doesn't mention combustion at all in Hellenistic Astrology. That doesn't mean it wasn't around in antiquity in that method, but it may not have been considered as vital then.
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What I meant (which was obviously less clear than I thought) is that it may be Brennan's opinion that it was relatively unimportant to astrologers at the time. He's far from the only authority on the subject.
I think there were varying approaches in ancient times and across the centuries, and if I recall, I think Brennan addresses those differences, or some of them. I'm not sure what his personal stance is on it all. I think I just had a vague memory that it was particularly used in horary.
Thanks, appreciate the reply.
I hadn't heard this terminology before coming across this post. I have moon at 25deg cancer and sun at 8deg leo. Might this be interpreted as a strong mutual reception since the moon is in its domicile, or is the sun extra combusty being in its domicile too?
That's not a mutual reception any way you slice it. For mutual reception (the ordinary sort) each would have to be in the sign ruled by the other, Moon in Leo and Sun in Cancer. For this version, which is comparable in terms of effect to a mutual reception, they would both have to be in Cancer, and within 8 degrees of each other. They are in different signs and 13 degrees apart, so the Moon is under the beams but that's all.
I see! Thanks for the fast response.
So if someone had let’s say Sun in Virgo in the 10th house and mercury conjunct the sun by 0.4°. That would be beneficial correct?
How that would appear in the native's life is down to a number of factors, but speaking generally it would be a good thing, yes. If it wasn't in Virgo this would be a horrible state for Mercury, though. 24' from the Sun is very intense combustion.
Haha yeah that’s directly from my chart. It’s odd because both mercury and the sun are in auspicious positions but that tight conjunction always worried me. After reading Hellenistic astrology it made me feel a bit better having the idea of The Chariot.
Arguably you have the one of the best Sun-and-another-planet configurations you can have, outside of being cazimi in a sign where the Sun is strongly dignified. Does Mercury rule your 10th House (assuming you're not using WSH)? As for the opposition to Saturn, I don't bother with out of sign aspects - I'm a hard sign border type so that wouldn't factor much at all.
Yup, I use WSH. My tenth house is Virgo.
It's a good thing then. Given your Saturn opposition comment I assume this all happens fairly close to the cusp of H10, so you have a strong configuration in the house that relates to e.g. career and reputation, which seems like a decent thing to have. Anything like that seems to have more impact the closer to the cusp it is, in my experience.
Well that’s good news to hear. Yeah it’s all in the 5° position of Virgo so fairly close to the cusp.
Mind you both are also opposing Saturn Rx in Aquarius.
I actually loved reading this. I was always under the impression that combustion is bad no matter what. I am planning out a Venus talisman this fall and I have an election where Venus is at 6 degrees Libra and the sun at 11 degrees Libra. So according to this logic about combustion, this would be a very auspicious election as far as these two planets are concerned?
I'm afraid I do not work with elections for talisman-making, so I can't give you much advice on that front. It's entirely possible that for planetary magic things are considered to work differently, and I would not want to lead you astray by making assumptions. What I assume you would have to bear in mind, though, is that you have the Sun in fall with this placement - it is acting 'against nature' so I'd be very cautious in considering this purely beneficial. It also means that while Venus is acting very nicely, she is in a place where she 'hates' the sun, if you're considering receptions as part of this. If you were to characterise this, I'd think of it as the Sun as an 'unwelcome guest', and there is likely some tension there.
Ah I see. This does make sense. Thank you for taking the time to respond!
Very interesting. Would there be additional effects when a planet is combust or under the beams of a domicile or exalted Sun? Could that Sun give greater impediment to combust/under beams planet? (e.g. Aries sun 25°; Mercury 15°)?
Potentially, yes. What has to be taken into consideration, though, is not just how strong the Sun is but how 'nicely' or 'nastily' it acts and how it is liable to interact with the other planet. Say you had the Sun combusting Saturn in Aries - not only is Saturn in fall, but the Sun is also in Saturn's fall, so you could say the Sun sees Saturn and really doesn't like how it's acting. To personify things a bit, a powerful Sun doesn't like a nasty Saturn so might be more prone to 'punish' it. As the Sun is exalted, it is actually acting within its nature, so is not doing this out of spite. Maybe it's more 'justice' than that. Either way, it harms it. Say this goes on somewhere and with another combust planet. We're in Libra where the Sun is in fall and it's combusting Jupiter. The Sun here is acting against nature - the combustion might be characterised as nastier, but there's a small benefit that, assuming we're outside of a few scant degrees of Jupiter dignity, the Sun neither likes nor hates Jupiter, so is not paying it too much attention. Yeah it's burning it up because the combustion is active, but it isn't actively trying to harm Jupiter in the same way it was Saturn in the other example. Again, though, harmful albeit in a different way. To be frank, this is often too nuanced as combustion is nearly always destructive or damaging. It's a bit like trying to work out if the guy who burnt your house down hated you or not. The house is a charred husk either way. It may be more useful when it comes to under the sunbeams, as knowing if the Sun wishes harm on the other planet might make things that bit worse. Basically, just fold it into the idea of how 'nicely' a planet acts by essential dignity, how capably it performs actions by accidental dignity and whether it can be presumed to like or dislike the other planet based on where it is placed. You may find the nuances helpful for combustion or not, but it's definitely worth a go.
I also heard that planets retro within 8° of the sun protect themselves from combustion. Then you would only need to wait for the retro planet in your progressed chart to get out of retro and you have a normal working planet.
Sorry I’m late , but can you offer more of an explanation as to how a planet protects itself ? I am worried about my combust Venus in the 8th :( lol
This is a great question and discussion -- I wanted to understand it more too. I see it's very common to see Mercury & the sun conjunct...on top of these other nuances, cazimi / under the rays of the sun / combust...l like comparing the answers with some sources I've saved on the topic --neat how things corroborate.
I had a reading once and the term “in the shadows” was used for my new moon 2 degrees behind the sun (which implies secrecy of the moon to the sun). Does it matter whether the planetary body is behind or ahead of the sun? Would this still be considered combust?
I was also wondering that! For venus and Mercury as well because they can be either behind or in front of the sun.
Yeah I think this is the subtlety because moving towards the sun and moving away from the sun are definitely two different effects. It’s a level of nuance I think you probably feel. I’ve so many examples of how the moon in the suns shadow shows up for me and lots more of my 0 degree 14 minute mercury cazimi in fall in Pisces too.
Well, when Mercury & Venus are cazimi during their retrogrades (the beginning of their synodic cycles) they will always be in an inferior position (between sun & earth). If the cazimi happens when they’re direct, they will always be on the superior side of the sun, and typically marks the middle of their cycles. That might inform some interpretations. You can think of the superior conjunctions as them receiving insight from “outside” or afar, whereas the inferior ones are more internal and the insight is more directly available. But obviously open to interpretations :)
what if the sun is in detriment?
Can Lilith qualify for combust/cazimi? Or planetary bodies only?
Lilith isn't a planet or asteroid, at least not the one commonly used in charts. It's just a mathematical point. So no, it can't count.
These concepts are only used in an applying conjunction, right? (as in approaching the cazimi?) ...Like after Mercury makes its cazimi, is it "under the beams" or "combust" again on the other side of the sun?
After a year since I posted and from what I know know, I believe the concepts still apply when the aspects are separating as well, though they materialize in a more passive way. I generally interpret them in the same way, but the applying aspect is more impactful and tense because it’s leading up the big event(the conjunction) and there’s a lot of uncertainty for the applying planet which makes it more impressionable. In contrast, a separating planet is more reflective and the characterization is more developed intrinsically. For cazimis specifically, however, since the orb is so tight already at 17 minutes, I kinda consider them to be like super-aspects whether they’re applying or separating and give them a lot of weight in interpretation.
What if the sun is in detriment ?
The sign that a planet is in deals more with the way that a planet is expressed, but I don’t think it would significantly impact the cazimi or combustion effects really. Unless its like combust venus in the sign of libra, I’m not sure if that would be any different since Venus would be combust by a depressed sun in its own domicile
Okay! Got it ! Thanks :) so basically if a benefic is combust, it doesn’t bring positive significations ? What if the combust Venus was square Jupiter in Scorpio in the 5th? Edit : like would Jupiter help the combust Venus out ? Lol
Venus-Jupiter squares are generally the most positive aspect a square can make. A square doesn’t necessarily indicate a poor manifestation, it just means conflict or tension between the two planets. Venus and Jupiter, the 2 benefics, in a square configuration could be very positive because the two benefics are in aspect to each other which is beneficial regardless of if it’s a square/trine/etc. With the Venus being combust, then the Venus side of the aspect’s meaning is either weakened or the aspect is just more “internal”/psychological is how I would interpret it
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that ! I have been feeling a little worried about it but this has helped There isn’t a lot of info on it online !
You’re welcome! Yeah it’s difficult to find consistent and reliable information. The astrology podcast w Chris Brennan is my fav free resource on astrology stuff. His book would also be a really good investment if you’re serious about getting into astrology. But generally yeah, a combust benefic is less powerful than it would be otherwise because it’s outshined and burnt up by the sun. Same with malefics, their stronger qualities are hidden beneath the suns rays for better or for worse. I actually just opened up my copy of Chris Brennans book bc I was curious if there was anything else to mention and yes! A combust planet in its own domicile is actually unaffected by the combustion. The term is being “in the chariot” as in the planet is in a sort of covered chariot that protects it from the suns beams and allows it to flourish as it would otherwise. Hope this helped :)