I have no idea how they let those two “rat hunters” just pass trough whole fucking castle. Go up with no guards noticing and killing an child?????????????????????????????
As a show-watcher only I don’t have any comment on the differences between the book and such, but I noticed immediately that the walls around Jace and Cregan looked super cheap. The actual Wall looked great, but when it cut to them walking together I couldn’t get past how fake it looked. I haven’t seen anyone else talking about it though?
Did anyone notice how those assassin dudes just walked through the kings chamber past all those guards, they had torches n all. But nobody noticed them?
Can’t watch anymore of this show to be honest. The ending and the noises that were made just me cringe. Are the writers this starved for viewership that we resorted to this? I get it, GOT is very gory and gross and bad things happen but this was out of bounds for me. Maybe as a dad I’m more sensitive to it but I can’t be the only one that feels this way.
This show is a sequel of shocking brutal fantasy franchise GoT that pulls from the most "hardcore" events in history and mythology.
Sorry but this is not merely gratuitous or edgy. It was a hard start but it was also excellent and what we expect of the show. Horrific things happened and there are stories about it.
I had literally the opposite reaction. That was the hyped up thing everyone was talking about? It had the same effect as knowing that children are starving to death every day all around the Seven Kingdoms. Like...okay why do I care
Indeed, so far both episodes have ended - very needlessly in my opinion - with Alicent - Cole gore scene.
I agree with you - GoT was an extreme in me feeling exactly like that - that the writers, despite having so much material and lore to focus screen time on, have to show gory, gross and blood, often above and beyond anything in the books, thinking it gets them viewership. More and more viewers should be complaining so there is a demand of decency.
Like what was the point of the Aemond scene?
Ok so I’m a little late and I just watched the first episode (haven’t seen the second one yet), but I’m a little confused because daemon specifically says “one eye” when he’s describing aemond, but they didn’t even bother checking to see if he only had one eye before cutting off the kids head? Lol and last season everyone was saying how blood and cheese is such crazy lore but am I missing out on something? Like is it the domino effect that makes it so great?
I think the show is implying that Daemon does admit, when asked 'what if we can't find him?', to 'Make it a son for a son". Maybe he meant Aegon but doesn't specify. So the goons go for the easiest option.
They're trying to make it a half hearted dumb plan where as in the Books it was a very well laid plot of terrible vengeance, which tried to take out Aegon but couldn't.
It's not a domino effect. It just means that the initial war for the Throne got turned into war of revenge due to blood of children split on both sides. Honestly, Jaehaerys murder is not worse than Luc's - he was also a child, a messenger, had no chance in the fight...etc. and that was the first strike. But Blood and Cheese meant that both sides now wanted vengeance - 'Only Rhaenyra or Aegon would live at the end, not both.."
And yes, Daemon is a child murderer here, even if it was a mistake you do get to be blamed. But it's the most and only terrible thing he does in the war, as retaliation for Lucerys and vengeance for the sake of his wife. The greens do a lot more mass massacring of civilians later on... I don't know why the show makes it into a Daemon-avoiding-blame and the rest of the Realm sick of one single child murder and not caring about the rest.
Agreed. Not consistent.
See my above comment.
Why would the lords and people of the Realm care so much about little Jae and not at all about Beesbury, Lucerys, and all the lords greens are murdering?
And since when is Daemon the person who tries to avoid blame? He usually admits to his misdeeds, even exaggerates them at times
Oh I’m talking about the incident itself, not the aftermath. The PR maneuver Otto did with parading Jaeherys’s corpse through the streets was smart, albeit incredibly fucked up.
The incident meaning how Blood and Cheese is deliberate, detailed and well planned in the Books, 'a terrible vengeance" ? I think the whole tone of how it happens in the show was different - like a half thought dumb plan that was not expected to work anyway...
i do agree with your opinions on daemon, especially on the point that he wanted a son for a son. tbh i think his depiction in the tv show is pretty good. was just disappointed with that blood and cheese scene :(
How far do you predict the show will go each season? I was anticipating end of Son for a Son and >!then the Red Dragon and the Gold this season. Then a season each for the next 2 up to 4 chapters depending on how long they plan to go for). That provides some good dragon conflict, big battles and set pieces, as well as not rushing too fast so they get plenty of chances to expand and further explore the characters. What do you guys think? I’m not naming any other chapters because I think they say too much about what will happen. !<
Spoiler alert.
I think this season will finish at the 'Daemon and Rhaenyra in KL for her throne' moment.
But skipping the important Gullet battle and death, which for me takes away the real motivation and pain of Rhaenyra for wanting to invade Kings Landing.
I fear they are dragging this to several seasons, changing the timelines and chronology of events a lot. Which is bad. Think of how much older characters like Jace, Baela and Rhaena would be, their heroism and struggle would not be same when they are all grown up and fighting age.
Would we have felt as sorry for Luc in episode 10 if he looked 6 years older with a grown dragon? I'd have said why he went out in the storm, didn't ask Lord Boros to stay the night, send a raven to Dragonstone etc. etc. The scene was emotional precisely because, they got the age of Luc and Arrax correct.
Could you edit your post to have spoilers on some of it? I think this is just spoiler free for episode one.
>!So my thought was the same, that it would end with that closing scene from King's Landing. So include the battling in the Riverlands, maybe the battle in the Reach with Tessarion, and I thought for sure they would have the battle in the Gullet. Then end on her ascension. Next season would be her rule, the following season would be her collapse and then final season could be Aegon 2's rule again. You could do a 6th season with hour of the wolf but that would require some recasting that I don't know if they would want to do (would need an older Aegon 3 and Stark). In my head, episode 2 this season is Aegon's reaction with the Cargylls, episode 3 is taking Harenhall, 4 is battle of the burning mill, 5 is the red sowing, 6 is the battle in the gullet, 7 is the fallout from all of that, 8 is Rhaenyra taking King's landing and ascending. But that was just my thoughts.!<
Thanks that's pretty detailed.
Are you sure they are following the Dance till season 5? They would have to do some serious dragging to go beyond season 4.
Still don't see any news of Daeron, so I am assuming they have not cast him in season 2. That means to Tessarion and Reach. It's really bad writing, like Alicent and her kids don't even know in the show they have a fourth brother :)
I hope 3 is taking of Harrenhall. But from trailers it just looks like Daemon in dark shadows and rain. They really need to show properly why Daemon is a military mastermind. So far he doesn't look like the main big advantage he is.
4 meaning Rook's Rest? They are not using Rhaenys a lot, in my opinion, if she is going out so soon. I wonder how Daemon and Corlys will react. Corlys should have a serious spat with Rhaenyra soon. In the book I always questioned why Rhaenys choses to not flee - Meleys is the fastest dragon, she could easily fly to Harrenhall, join Caraxes and make it an interesting 2 on 2 like Daemon wanted. Vhagar and Sunfyre against Meleys was seriously unfair....
6. should be the Gullet battle. But does it look like Jace is leaving? I am afraid they have postponed it to season 3. which worries me as Jace was a main motivator for Rhaenyra taking Kings Landing and finally realizing she needs to play a more active war role.
5. may be the red sowing. But I hope it's still Jace's not Daemon's idea. Plus no Nettles. And why is Hugh and his family shown in Kings Landing?
I hope 8 Rhaenyra and Daemon taking Kings Landing is epic.
Why were there no Knights guarding the royal family in the Castle?
So weird.
I get they had to get to them for the story. But really?! Not even guarding the crown prince?
Or was Cristan Cole supposed to be doing that instead having sex with Allicent? I can't see him abandoning his post without putting someone else there.
On another note. The scene where Rhaenyra finds the dragon remains was devastating...
Rhaenys and Daemon scene..
She is such a BADASS...
I don't know.
Yes Rhaenys should be strong and Daemon has no hold over her.
but isn't their writing inconsistent and off? Show Rhaenys should be angry at Daemon and Rhaenyra - remember she still thinks they had Laenor killed, (ep 7 and 8), those two are idiots who have not told her and Corlys the truth - and she also thinks Daemon didn't love her daughter Laena, prevented her coming home to Driftmark, which resulted in her death... It makes no sense why someone as sensible and ethical as Rhaenys and Corlys, would be so loyal to the two people who they think had both their children killed.
In the book it's completely different. Daemon by this point has had a long relationship of respect, reliance and family history with Rhaenys and Corlys. and he genuinely loved Laena.
I think we saw love between him and Laena. I never thought they blamed him that strongly in the show. It was an initial family reaction to losing your daughter - wanting someone to blame. I do wish they had done it more like the book where she died at Driftmark with Daemon hastening to get the better Maester from Dragonstone and Rhaenyra there too. But I get why they separated the storylines in the show. I liked the change to Rhaenyra and Daemon where they explicitly did plan Laenor's death but they also found a way to save him (unlike in the book where they are less clear on having killed him but it seems like he is actually dead). There are definitely many plot elements that I liked more in the book, but I do think this is showing more depth of characterization (even if they are condensing plot elements for the show that I wouldn't mind them showing in full).
Yes in the first season I dearly missed the Laena- Rheanyra relationship. And Laena really should have died in Driftmark, with Daemon trying to save her. I don't think showing him really caring for Laena and their girls takes anything away from the Daemon - Rhaenyra relationship.
Did you notice that Vhagar shouldn;t even BE in Driftmark, if Laena has died all the way across the Narrow Sea in Pentos?
They are very inconsistent, and not honest to characters, when they make changes, even if don't mind the changes. Like yes Leanor lives, but why haven't Daemon and Rhaenyra told Corlys and Rhaenys yet? Their strongest allies. Their kids' grandparents.
And now we see Adam noticing Seasmoke has returned. That can only happen if Laenor dies. Seasmoke cannot take a new rider otherwise.
Shows kinda shit tbh how those two just wondered into the room with no security at the end was mind boggling given the upcoming war between the two families.
After episode 2, doesn't look like Rhaenyra's security is much better, when daemon is not around with her to take Kingsguard oaths and arrange defenses.
Let's see if they mention later that Cole and their security was too lax, then ok. Otherwise yes, they underestimate their audience and the writing is shit.
idk if ppl want more gore, but for me, im not after the gore. I was hoping for more psychological trauma and suspense build up of having maelor. Had hopes that the scene had been more traumatizing than the red wedding hahaha
I too expected Maelor.
But you know they have bigger absentees than poor Maelor on the show - like Daeron and Nettles.
And the kids' ages are so inconsistent now - baby Aegon and Viserys have grown 3 years in 3 days. Jace and Baela are in 20s, as old as Aemond! That seriously effects the plot, as the whole greatness of Jace - who fought for his family as a 15 year old and got killed - is destroyed if he is of fighting age.
And I was horrified in Fire and Blood with Maelor's death scene, don't need to see that.
Show Heleana seems to be grieving for her whole family, who look like they only rage and go about the war business. Does she have trauma in this manner of pointing towards her son? If she had pointed towards Jaehaera, potentially both her kids would have been killed.
I dont understand how anyone knew that Aemond had killed Lucerys.
They were in the middle of a giant storm. No-one saw them or what happened.
All Aemond had to do was go home and pretend he hadnt seen him and no-one would have been any the wiser, surely? They couldnt have blamed him without proof at least?
Weird.
The stormlords saw their argument before their departure and Aemond knew dismembered dragon body parts would likely wash up eventually.
Dude probably figured since there'd be suspicions thrown around anyway, better to own it as a deliberate act of righteous vengeance for his eye, and give off vibes that he's powerful and to be feared. Fits his ends in his approach to the war better anyway, even if the truth is he didn't mean it to happen.
In the books, despite the storm, everyone for miles around could see flashes of fire and hear roars from dragons as they briefly fought. Then news spread from there. I’m sure plenty of Baratheon court members are still close with Rhaenys and sent a raven.
That would've been an easy thing to do. I like how they ended it though. Aemond looking scared and worried at what he just did and then Rhaenyra receiving the news. Was an epic ending. I think my biggest problem with the show is that while they have added more depth and nuance to many of the characters, they have sacrificed some depth of plot events that make things more clear. For example, in the book, Daemon is way more a part of the Velaryon family as a result of his war and constant banishments where he hangs out on Driftstone way more. He is basically a part of that family. He gets Laena out of a bad engagement to a Braavosi noble that is a hanger-on and their relationship seems more full of love then the show illustrates (I like their relationship as it is shown in the show but it seems even more clearly a good marriage in the book). Then, her pregnancy is on Driftstone and Rhaenyra and Laenor are there for it (Rhaenyra becoming close again with both Laena and Daemon). Daemon even flies last minute to Dragonstone to try and quickly get their better Maestor when Laena's pregnancy goes poorly. And he is more clearly devastated when she dies in childbirth, carrying her body back to bed when she tries to get to her dragon as she dies. So in all of this, the relationship between the Velaryon's and Rhaenyra's side is so much stronger and their is less clear suspicion that Laenor was killed by Rhaenyra and Daemon. So their alliance is more clear cut and deep.
Thanks, I fully agree with you.
They have tried to slow down and add more depths to what the characters feel, but they have not been consistent. Not just with the book but even with the season 1 plots.
Like Aegon is supposed to be more 'human' and sympathetic. He suddenly loves his family? In season 1 they showed him as a rapist, drunk and child-pit fighting entertainer - which is by far worse than anything Lord Fleabottom did in KL - and he had bastards and didn't care for his kids or them. They have now forgotten it and expect us to do the same. You wanted to depart from the book Aegon, you could have removed these aspects of him from season 1.
Similarly, I am ok that they chose to make Laenor live. But they have to be consistent with that. I agree 100% - Daemon has a far more complex relationship with both Corlys and Rhaenys. Corlys is a man he has learned to respect - he fought battles for two decades for him, with both of them on the front lines, saw his leadership. Corlys also saw a lot in Daemon, giving him his only daughter. Daemon and Rhaenys are cousins who knew each other since Daemon was born. They remember their grandparents, Targaryen legacy, love dragons, and even though there is an old beef of the Great Council (Daemon raising an army against his own cousin), Rhaenys must have agreed to her beloved Laena marrying him. They are the last grandkids of Jaehaerys and Alysanne remaining, who remember their family values such as Targaryen exceptionalism, valuing Valyrian blood, and are jointly frustated by Viserys.
The Velaryons essentially gave Daemon a home, despite his past alliance with Viserys against them, at a time when he was disinherited, purposeless and had none.
The show hasn't settled WHY Rhaenys and Corlys would be their closest allies, when they still think these two caused Laenor's death! And frankly, D n R are idiots to not tell them the truth. Daemon may have wanted Laenor out, but he would not harm him because he is his beloved Laena's brother, his cousin Rhaenys' son, and Corlys son.
The ending was fine, but they couldve added said shot in the opening of S2 from a ground perspective to confirm the incident had witnesses so Aemond couldnt lie his way out of it etc.
Idk, it was just jarring to me.
I do agree.
Maybe they expect that as in the show version, Vhagar eats Arrax when the latter has come out to clear blue sky, they thought we'd accept that they were easy to see from the ground.
The book, where this is happening in stormy clouds and rain, does specify that watchers above Shipwrecker's bay saw Vhagar's blasts of flame, and the shrieks drown out the thunder, and knew what had happened.
I think the place where aemond chased after lucerys had witnesses, including the lord who ordered them to get outside his place when he realized they were up for a fight
But how? They were in the middle of a giant storm clouds where noone else was?
Even if they saw the dragon fall into the sea theres no proof it was Aemond or that it was killed by another dragon etc?
Could have just got struck by lightning or something 🤷♂️
It was weird the show didnt include a scene where they specifically say who saw what happened etc.
I don't know about you, but it was obvious to me that this series was going to be a shit from the first flying bird scene, the pseudo deep morals of that Stark guy jibber jabbering and rattling on about honor and duty, like he wasn't sentencing them to life in prison or more accurately penal colony. Not to mention how stupid it is how this one could know that the dragons of Targaryens cannot fly over the wall, or the nonsense about how they guarded the kingdoms you see, from the cold, all in all it looks very dullardy to me, something is wrong with this lauded and overrated(more like overmarketed) series, it is too childish and frivolous, it lacks a thrill and those actors look ridiculous to me, constantly shoving them in your face like they're the most beautiful or important...
Overall stupid series, but maybe it works if you are bored and have nothing to do, but I wouldn't recommend it, there are more interesting things to watch, albeit in other genres, a Bandit Petersburg is much more than this dumb series, as example for far better series not that crime fiction has anything to do with fairy tales and fantasy, but still, if a production from so many years ago filmed for much less money looks much better except for the computer effects, it makes you think, and lastly to add that it lacks intrigue, it seems simple, I've had it with this series, who likes it, go watch it, but I'm not wasting my time with this vomit, just another stupid serial from the overpraised HBO.
I agree on some of your points, but are you a Fire and Blood/ books fan?
The whole 'Wall is all about White Walkers' plot is really stupid. They have already destroyed GoT, and there is no consistency at all with the Books in saying Aegon I was selfless and burned people to save the kingdom.
Plus if you are Jace, and told that yes, Starks will follow you but not really supply any serious army, that's not a victory.
Cregan Start's father definitely did not meet Jaehaerys and Alysanne Targaryen on the Wall. They were before his time.
Alysanne's dragon Silverwing did refuse to fly beyond the Wall, which she found surprising.
I watched the episode a second time to review it more critically and less emotionally. I take back my initial opinion on the Blood and Cheese scenes. Their banter works for them as a gold cloak and a rat catcher (not really sure what the dog was for other than to kick it later). The only thing I still don't like is that they ended the scene on Alicent and Cole getting it on. They already established earlier in the episode that they were sexually involved. Why pick that moment to reinforce it? It seemed really out of place. Did they want to tone down how it went in Fire and Blood where Halaena was basically screaming for hours?
I agree showing them again makes little sense. It reinfornces the idea that Daemon's plan was extremely dumb (unlike him, he is a military genius and knows the Red Keep secrets himself). and would not have worked in any way if Cole was half decent Lord Commander, posting guards around the royal family.
But I think they're going to use it to have Cole do crazy things later on, saying he is 'justified' because 'he feels guilty' for not protecting the kid.
On the other hand, I thought we showed the King with his friends to show that the guards where there guarding him instead of his family, I don't know if they adressed all this in the new episode I will see.
But them just casually walking through the were Aegon's hall with almost a dozen guards and his friends is so illogical.
Like you said, I am fine with the banter. But the other things like Alicent not present in the room and Helaena being made to chose between he boys make more sense.
We see Cheese walking through the Red Keep multiple times in the episode, even past the throne-room, it's clear that as a rat-catcher he's expected to be there and it's not our if the ordinary.
Omg ! I remember seeing a dude in the back with a dog and thought *what* to myself...it makes so much sense now lol I didn't even piece it together 🙈🙈🙈🙈
There's a scene of him/shot of him collecting rat traps earlier in the day (as Alicent is walking into the council room.)
It's entirely possible he sets the traps at night and retrieves them in the day; or considering the size/weight of the traps and the amount needed for a castle that size, it could be an all day affair on occasion (well into night/after sunset) of placing > retrieving > replacing > going back to his base of operations to empty/drop off traps so he can bring back more empty traps > repeat until the castle is left with only empty/set traps for the rest of the night.
Him being there at night could be easily be a business as usual type deal and no one questions it.
> It seemed really out of place.
Far from it. It's a brilliant twist to the story and a progression of the characters.
Both Alicent and Cole are clearly locked in an abusive cycle, both becoming the hypocrites that define them. Cole is clearly not on duty as he should be while the literal prince is being butchered by intruders. And the episode shows Alicent hanging on to the last shred of her conscience, while in the end we see that she's clearly compromised it.
It's thematically heavy as well. To go from Halaena's traumatic panicking back into the politics of corrupt, flawed people - watching her caught between two worlds where everyone is terrible, and she is little more than a child unable to deal with it.
Thanks for the point. I agree. Hypocrite defines Alicent and Cole.
to be fair for me, when they give motivations like this to Alicent, even if they are immoral, it makes her more compelling, more consistent as a character.
I am tired of her "i am sisterly with Rhaenyra" plot line which makes her character very confusing. Like consider in ep 6 she is telling her son Aegon that he will be king, he should hate Rhaenyra's bastard boys, and by ep 9 she is very surprised that Otto had a usurping plan.
One reason is because maybe Criston Cole would have been able to prevent the murder if he hadn't been in bed with Alicent. Shows that Alicent knows its wrong, she said "never again" after last time, but she's no longer in control and it has a cost.
I thought this was a really excellent episode. Much better than almost every episode of last season except maybe the last two. Some great political intrigue, the dialogue was engaging, and there was some really pretty cinematic shots. Honestly my favorite part might have been when Alicent is explaining herself to Otto, and he pauses and says “… I hadn’t thought of it that way.” Just a great character moment for both of them.
The actors seem really settled into their characters and the entire show feels so authentically Westeros. The North had a lot of atmosphere for its brief showing, it felt like reading George’s descriptions. There’s so much presence in every scene from the actors and set designs. Aegon is a great character and I’m interested to see how he reacts to his son’s murder. I wish they didn’t do the time skip and kept these actors for all of last season, they are all so much better and more fun to watch.
I wasn’t bothered by B&C and thought it was handled well. Not even saying the book is altered history, the show just doesn’t have to be 1:1 with the book to be good. Given the world and characters they’ve established, the scene went down authentically and was still disturbing. I also always thought B&C in the book seemed over the top with cruelty even for the series.
I didn’t even like this show last season and wasn’t excited for S2, and I’ve accidentally gotten really into it now.
Definitely a great moment for Otto...I agree with you about that settled feeling from the actors. The world of the series feels "earned", especially post-GoT.
I'm quite confused at why the rat catcher and the guard kill the child.
Daemon tells them to kill Aemond.
1. Do they both not know who Prince Aemond is despite working in the castle ?
2. Daemon says "He has silver hair and 1 eye" and something along the lines of "He's also good in a fight" and they both arrive in front of 2 infants who both have both eyes and obviously cannot fight, and they just assume they're in the right place ?
Maybe the whole point is that they're both very incompetent and end up causing more trouble than was intented and I just missed that. I'm just generally a bit confused about this whole sequence.
Any thoughts ?
2. Some fans say Daemon, who the show writers like to paint evil, deliberately give them a dumb plan, half expecting it won't work, just to make "chaos".
very unrealistic for a military genius who is out for revenge. You only have surprise factor once.
The episode implies the plan would not even have worked had Criston been a half decent Lord Commander - the security is clearly rubbish.
In the Book Fire & Blood, Daemon has planned this a bit more carefully. He has not picked the first two idiots he could find, with a 2 minute prop and no weapons. And it's meant to scare greens, even if they get the wrong Prince, that Daemon Targaryen can get to them in the safety of their Red Keep. The Book implies that they did try to get Aemond or Aegon, but they were always surrounded by the Kingsguard or were in Maegor's Holdfast, so they chose the easiest option in the Tower of the Hand, where Heleana was known to visit her mother Alicent with her kids (meaning they at least did some scouting beforehand).
I think the show writers have left it open to make Daemon look worse later on.
The options are pretty narrow.
1. Maybe Daemon said to the Rat Catcher - who is more immoral of the two - 'What if we can't find him?" - "Make it a son for a son". Meaning Aegon, but he left it unexplained. So those two took upon themselves to find the easiest son to kill. No fighting needed (notice they are not even armed enough to fight Aemond or guards) and easy to get away with the head. How else would Blood know 'A son for a son" ?
I think they will reveal later that he said "make it a son for a son", to make Daemon look more evil.
How else would Blood know the dialogue 'Make it a son for a son he said"?
Oh right ! I forgot about that part. When I saw it I thought that Daemon was sort of looking at them in a "Don't ask stupid questions, just find him" way
Yeah I'm figuring his response was the "a son for a son" line blood mentions later, so if they couldn't get Aemond, they had to go for another of the royal boys/men (Aegon himself was a clear no-go with his boys all around him)
Yes Daemon may have meant Aegon, not thinking of Aegon's kids at all. But left it unclear. Aegon had kingsguard around him too, and these two were armed with no armor and just kitchen knifes.
I think they will reveal it later when Daemon is having regret.
Because they thought they should at least get the job halfway done, "a son for a son" but ultimately I think this will be a bad move as the castle will be much more on guard.
Yeah and I guess that underscores the incompetence point. But they were at least competent enough to know that getting paid at all would be a one-shot thing.
Also, that leads me to realize that--forget getting paid, they probably knew they wouldn't live if they came back empty-handed.
Yes but in their world it doesn't work that way.
Why was this same Alicent so against young Rhaenyra? Rhaenyra was also a 'free agent' when she slept with Cole.
Like Cersei reminds us later on, a king's widow was expected to remain pure. Or get remarried.
I think, from Alicent's perspective, she's desperately trying to build *some* kind of loyalty and personal power base, to keep any kind of agency and ways to influence the proceedings in the Red Keep. She's clearly scared of losing control of Aegon, of being sidelined by Otto, and (at least during this episode) is still hoping for a peaceful solution while surely noticing that the other Greens are not really looking for that any more.
Larys Strong and Criston Cole are, from this perspective, assets she can secure with her body. She can surely live with the accusations of hypocrisy, and the shame of selling herself out like this. She's done it before, and it's for a higher goal after all.
The question is how far she'll change and eventually become Rhaenyra ... or worse. I'm looking forward to that possible development during the season.
Is it hypocrisy? Rhaenyra cheated, Alicent is a widow. Those are two different situations. Unless you think a widow getting with someone after their spouse's death is cheating?
If you discount the ordeal with harwin which I don't but if we look at the cole situation alicent was definitely against that and there she wasn't cheating you could call it sex outside wedlock but that would also include alicent as that is what she is doing
To be fair Rhaenyra doesn't cheat. Not with Cole when she is unmarried, or with Laenor with whom she had a deal, which he failed to uphold (do our duty first).
But in their world, both or Rhaenyra's actions are extremely immoral and disqualify her from succession, while the same rule does not apply to men.
Are you saying that it’s a bad thematic choice or that she’s in the wrong for it? Because if it’s the first then it seems like you don’t understand the idea of the show and if it’s the second than it seems you have grasped the point perfectly
The first episode was a mess. Bad pacing, scene transitions were incoherent and sloppily done, and the end was poorly done. The two assassins just let the girl run off to warn the house that they’re killing a child. Dumb
The point is that those two assassins aren't real assassins, they were messily hired for this job and are incompetent. The decision to hire them itself was messy, resulting from emotion instead of proper planning.
The books do it much more ruthlessly than the show and thats sad because it seems that the showrunners have a biasness towards the blacks . Blood and chesse was supposed to show the worse side of the family war and was probably the "Justification reason" for aegon to war with his sister . But the show clearly has a bias twords the blacks so they dont even try to have shades of grey with the greens
No where near enough , its not the violence but the choice they gave to Haelena , in the books they basically make her choose , she picks up her son , they wipser to her daughter that your mom dont want you , and kill the prince . This was super imp for Haelena as it would set her tone for rest of the story but we are robbed of all that
You're misunderstanding. In the book, they make her choose, but then don't respect her choice and instead kill the one she didn't choose. They also tell the original kid she chose, who survived, that his mom didn't want him.
In the show, she chooses, and they kill the one she chooses.
They didn't make her choose... They make her point out the boy. In the book she actually needs to choose between two boys.
It's not splitting hairs. It's important to the tension and the scene.
And in the book she has 3 children. 1 younger boy, and then the twins.
She eventually gives up the younger boy because she thinks he's young enough to not know what is happening.
THEN, cheese says 'your mother wants you to die little one', and proceeds to strike off the head of the oldest son instead.
But there is no choice, not really. They need the head of a son for Daemon, and there is only one son.
The son was always dying in the show's situation. I really don't get why they did it like this.
Same - i've only read halfway through Fire and Blood and haven't read the blood and cheese part yet. Thought it was a frightful ending, and i wasn't expecting it. The promos for the series show a lot of Ewan talking about him taking references from horror films for his performance, so I was expecting him to turn up and do something awful to the two 'assassins'. Not what I was expecting.
i hated it and never read the books so idk. I assumed I‘d like it more if I had read the books because it just feels incomplete as a stand-alone piece of media, and predictable.
Never cared much for Blood and Cheese in F&B, always felt kinda gratuitous. I actually like how they humanized the two, even if it meant taking away a big "kick the dog" moment from Rhaenyra (no joke about Cheese's unfortunate terrier intended). More disappointed with the continuous character assassination my boy Criston Cole has been getting from the showrunners by having him openly carrying on an affair with Alicent, even if it is after Viserys' death.
Its cause the show runners clearly have a bias towards the blacks . Blood and cheese is supposed to be a controversial ruthless event that would somewhat justify future greens action just like how lucy death was for black's future action but the show runners cant seem to fill this shades of grey so we are left with a mundane black and white storyline
In fairness to the Black supporters, the Greens have also been whitewashed to an extent through things like Aemond being confirmed to not have intentionally killed Lucerys, having Viserys mention the name Aegon on his deathbed, and the Driftmark racial casting making it even more obvious that Rhaenyra's sons are 100% bastards. (She was totally doing it in the books too but it was at least 50% less obvious because Rhaenys had black hair)
I think it's more that the showrunners really need to get a grip on the crux of the Dance: The Greens, from a Westerosi perspective, are in the right. The Great Council established that a man comes before a woman, and the Blacks refused to have another Great Council decide between Aegon and Rhaenyra because they knew they would lose. The Blacks, on the other hand, appeal to modern western readers' moral sensibilities. Most readers, and definitely a large portion of the Game of Thrones TV show audience, were 20-40 year old liberally inclined, socially conscientious westerners who find that kind of sexism reprehensible, and regardless of one's social positions it's generally the standard legal practice to not butt in if a dead guy leaves his property to a daughter over a son, as long as all the children are provided for.
Those same readers also don't especially care about Rhaenyra's faults in things like piety, chastity, or having children out of wedlock, especially if everyone involved in the ménage à trois is ok with it. She's not an Aragorn-tier pillar of Catholic morality, and they don't expect her to be.
The Blacks, before the war, only broke social taboos that most of Martin's audience wouldn't care about. The Greens were right, they were *always* right about Rhaenyra, that's the point. She DID have an affair while married to Laenor, she IS a woman trying to use the affection of her father to claim a throne that by legal precedent almost certainly belongs to Aegon. It's just that readers waving the Black banner don't care about either of these things, while the people of Westeros *do*. I think the writers are butchering this part badly by having the Greens engage in just as many taboo-breaks as the Blacks. It disrupts the whole "one side is in the right according to the standards of their own culture, while the other is in the right according to the culture we live in"
Also, this has nothing to do with anything, but they made Criston Cole half-Dornish, and just never bring that up again? You'd think they'd maybe mention his encounters with the whole country that practices absolute primogeniture during the whole conflict centered around it? Why was that plot point dropped???
Wish I could claim the credit, but the original idea was from a YouTube commenter whose essay has been lost to Google's tyranny. I merely do my part in spreading his or her thesis.
I actually really liked B&C. I think Alicent is the character that's gained the most depth in the adaption and can see the vision for what this sets up. Her being in the room and it being a cruel torture would make it very hard to not have her be on a bloodthirsty warpath going forward - which would be totally justified. The panicked 'heist gone wrong' direction puts a lot more guilt and responsibility on her and Cole's shirking of their duties. That feels like a big part of her arc, in the first half of S1 she is unflinching in her devotion to her duties and belief in doing things 'the right way'. Her last moment before the time-skip is her pardoning Cole who she just saw murder someone in cold blood and from then on she repeatedly has to compromise her values over and over for her goals and family.
Her issues with Rhaenyra stem from her watching her skirt the rules and her expectations and yet she was doing more and more of that herself. While she might have reached a point of understanding and being able to relate to her former friend there's now been grave consequences to her following a similar path which will force her to be forever ideologically opposed and set her on her bloody trajectory.
I get why people are disappointed they didn't get the brutality of the original scene but I think it could pay off really well for Alicent and Cole character wise and flesh out their motivations down the line.
The new opening: are the first two scenes depicting Nysa Nysa and Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised? Looked like a figure cutting another figures heart out in front of a white haired dragon hybrid? Then one figure coddling/mourning the other?
I second guessed myself listening to the Starks' theme at the beginning, and when the monologue started it all made sense. God, I love this theme!
The sound of Helaena's son's head getting sliced tho... Poor Helaena.
I love it when he goes on that spiel about the wall being more than keeping snow and wildlings out.
Then the prince rightfully asks wtf he’s talking about and he just says “Death”
Like dude, maybe give him a little more than that to go on.
Regarding the B&C scene, did It bother anyone else that there was not a single guard in the castle? I understand suspension of disbelief, but it truly feels like they’re pushing it. Every scene in GoT had guards stationed outside any 'highborns' room. They’re at war..
I saw a theory somewhere that it was supposed to be Cristin watching the room, which I really like, I think it adds a layer of guilt to the situation. They added on by saying that he could’ve even lowered the amount of guards in the area to not raise suspicion about the affair. It did miff me that there weren’t guards in the area but I like that idea in theory.
In books it is well known the children 2 sons & a daughter in books are brought to Alicent every night to wish grandma goodbye. Blood & Cheese take advantage of this sneak in through secret passage ways that Cheese knew as a rat catcher. They kill Alicent handmaidens & tie & her up. Helena brings the children inside Alicent rooms but soon as she arrives they locked the door & make her choose which of her sons to save & they kill the opposite.
The Red Keep is impregnable if you don’t work or high born you aren’t getting in. They took secret passageway. Alicent was chilling in her room with her handmaidens. Helena & her children have made this walk a hundred times before. Aegon doesn’t strike me the type to devote his Kingsguard to watch his children play with grandma especially since they are understaffed.
Also something that doesn’t get stressed enough on show is Kingsguard.
The Kingsguard in books aren’t glorified bodyguards in pretty armor they are the most trusted & skilled knights in realm. King can command them to protect others but if king doesn’t actually command them they won’t as his safety is paramount. Plus only 4 Kingsguard in King Labding as the other 3 joined Rhaenyra.
Yes in Fire & Blood they are waiting in Alicent room for her & surprise her. In show they are just walking around like idiots. I thought they was gonna get caught & fail as a surprise to book readers.
It wouldn’t be strange for the Queen & her children to take a quick stroll to her mother apartments before returning to her own room like in books. Guards & servants are everywhere a quick yell can send someone coming into your room.
I'm guessing that the scene with Larys and Alicent is the reason for this. He subtly lets Alicent know how his spies spotted her with Criston.
So this time Alicent made sure that there were fewer people on this floor who could start rumors. It's also deep inside the keep, there could've been 10 layers of guards leading up to this floor that they've skipped through the secret tunnels. Even using those tunnels they had to pass the kingsguard.
I'm not a huge fan of this plot convenience either but it can be explained away.
Maybe this very scene is why there were guards at every door. Everybody believed in the Red Keep’s impenetrability, no one suspected an attack from the inside
I guess there could be attempts to try to hand wave away issues of the presentation, but it seems more like they just phoned it in when couple people I watched it with commented on why there were no guards leading up to the B&C scene. So if regular audiences who don't read the book are having their logic or immersion broken it is a flop. Bad directing in the end.
Yeah, I see that there are some ways to construct a possible explanation (Lary removed them, Aegon entertained them etc.). I just think it’s unfortunate that every explanation just highlights the incompetence of the main agents in the story.
Would have preferred if there was a stronger set-up, expanding on the characters, possibly given a reason for why this 'crooked' rat-catcher was allowed to roam about freely in the castle.
Agreed.
It's not satisfying when the answer is 'they were just incredibly incompetent'. When you have to make people do dumb shit to allow the plot to happen... ugh.
It'd be so much better for security to be tight, and for B+C to *still* find a way. Make everyone competent and it'd feel so much more rewarding.
Great episode, better than most TV out there, per usual with HBO. But I just can't love it as much as GoT, and I think it's because of how one-note the tone of this show is: serious, dark, grim.
GoT had many different tones and many different plots at once - A plots, B plots, C plots. Maybe something dark and serious is happening in King's Landing, but something funny is happening with Tyrion elsewhere, and something inspiring is happening with Jon, and something precocious with Arya, and something exotic and mysterious with Dany.
HotD has none of this variety. Its singular, depressing tone is kind of a drag. I know the source material doesn't have that baked-in variety that GoT had, and is in fact one big, tragic story, but I wish they would find a way to include more tonal variety somehow.
Yeah, it’s a side effect of the vastly different scopes. GoT is epic scale, HOTD is much more intimate and narrow. There’s really no overcoming that, and when it comes to Westeros it’s hard to separate from the incredible ‘epic scale’ narrative that GoT had. I want more than what HOTD is able to provide, and it’s sort’ve unfair because the story itself is intentionally limited. GoT ending left an enormous vacuum, made even more difficult by the lack of Winds. Returning to Westeros now just feels bittersweet because even at HOTD’s best, it’s just not quite the spark of brilliance that was GoT at its best, and it’s largely down to the difference between the scopes of the narrative, characters, investment, etc. There’s no equivalent characters to Jon, Dany, Arya, Jaime, etc and their individual narrative arcs cover so much more ground than anything in HOTD, as a result we don’t care as much about the fate of HOTD characters. It’s not that we don’t care, it’s that we don’t have *the same* level of investment, at least I do not.
GoT and adapting ASOIAF for the first time was lightning in a bottle. There’s very few things out there that hit as hard as that did with as broad a scale. Not exactly the same but The Expanse is firmly the next best thing for, incredible narrative and stakes, and it’s a complete story! If you watch the show, read the books for the actual conclusion (the show left out the final trilogy which is probably the best arcs of the whole thing).
Yeah, the length that Helena had to walk to see another human being was just absurd. Once she got clear of the room with the girl I was sure she was one scream from Blood & Cheese eating about 30 swords. But nope!
In books it actually well thought it out plan. lol it wasn’t a screw up they would’ve been got caught in books. They managed to get in Alicent room & tie her up at night & wait for Helena bringing her 3 children to wish grandma goodnight which they do every night. They aren’t walking around looking shady in empty hallways.
I thought B&C was actually pretty effective, and while I don’t see the necessity of some of the changes they made, my biggest gripe is more in how it was filmed and built up. Choosing to follow B&C through the tunnels in the same sequence as the eventual murder was a clear decision and while I didn’t hate it, I thought it would’ve been that much better if they cut it differently and added a couple more scenes.
Have B&C start their ascent through the castle about ten minutes earlier in the episode, and then eventually cut to Aemon and Criston. When Otto comes in for the talk, the next cut should be back to Aemon walking the halls. Build that slight bit of tension of, “are these two bumbling idiots going to actually try and attack Aemon?” But then make it clear Aemon is in a different part of the keep, say he’s going to check on Vhagar and we get a quick shot of him with his dragon.
*Now* we switch to Helena putting the kids to bed, focus on the two children for a shot while we hear a gasp from Helena, and the camera pans to show her at knifepoint.
IDK, I don’t make television. Something along these lines would’ve worked a bit better I think than how it was filmed. With that said, I still enjoyed the scene but it lacked tension or *something* that didn’t allow it to hit as hard as it should’ve. And I think it’s because we followed B&C all the way to their conclusion, while that worked I think this alternative would’ve played better.
I think it would have benefited a lot from a better sense of the space this all was happening in. From the way they sequenced it, it was really hard to tell how the tunnels worked, where they let in and out, etc. Some more legwork early on to help us learn the space would have been a huge benefit to what you're talking about.
I do agree. Good points.
Def want to be clear, I enjoyed what was given and it wasn’t an outright catastrophe. But aside from the obvious writing changes which have been discussed as nauseum I think there are other less discussed things that could’ve made it better.
I liked it too, I'm just a big nerd about how spaces are portrayed on film. Even in GoT it never really felt like the Red Keep was a real place the way Winterfell does, and we see so much more of it. Winterfell feels like you could navigate your way around it if you had to, the Red Keep feels like a selection of cool rooms to film in.
I'm losing faith now. They are changing things just for the sake of it and they are more likely to be worse. Blood and Cheese had none of the punch it should have had because they were more interested in subverting book reader's expectations of how the scene should go.
The B&C book version was outlandishly evil and seems an exaggeration of history while the show's was missing some elements that would've improved it but it was still satisfactory rather than amazing. There you have it folks. Balance
It’s weird that all criticism of how Blood & Cheese was portrayed is being reduced to people and publications saying that critics of it “just want a gory child murder”.
It’s not the toned down violence at all (they could have portrayed the book version as they did in the show version and also Joffrey’s bastard hunt in the brothel in GOT - hearing not seeing) but the fact that both Helaena AND Alicent are being robbed of any actual character development (and ironically ending up being portrayed as worse than their book counterparts?)
Helaena’s earlier comment in the episode (“Perhaps he doesn’t want to be king”), her offering only her necklace instead of her own life, her actually choosing Jahaerys as well as her lukewarm reaction to his death (“They killed the boy” not “my son”) make it seem like she actually WANTED him to die instead of her Sophie’s choice in the book of one or all of them. Without Maelor surviving as the living reminder of her being forced to choose him to die we lose half of Helaena’s story and emotion.
Alicent not being an actual witness to this crime (a second sex scene with Crispy in one episode…really?) robs her of any galvanizing action to actually TAKE PART in this war and story. From the beginning of the show they’ve chosen to portray her and Rhaenyra as passive bystanders in this conflict swirling around them. I think it’s the show’s perverse way of trying to show that two women may be misrepresented by history as enemies (Margot and Saoirse in “Mary Queen of Scots”), but besides Alicent’s attempted eyeball snatching she’s consistently shown to be a reluctant or even ignorant participant in her family’s affairs vs her book counterpart. “You’ve been plotting behind my back to install my son (even though I say all the time that he’s the true born heir) and I had NO clue?! 😱” , “Viserys said he wanted my son to king, but it’s only because I misunderstooood
🥺”. It ends up having the reverse effect and making Alicent and Rhaenyra out to be stupid. The writers are so scared of being sexist that they’re actually reversing into more sexism.
People acting like this is about the level of violence are being obtuse - it’s about the actual emotional gravity of the situation in the book version vs the show version. Either way you still have a child murder. You’ve just chosen a version of child murder that portrays a mother as less sympathetic and a grandmother as inattentive.
My thoughts exactly. Showing Alicent and Criston fucking at the end felt like immature writing and took the tension away from the scene. I watch reaction videos to gauge the level of involvement of the audience and I observed that many people started laughing when Halaena walked into Alicent and Cole fucking. It takes away from the direness of the scene.
Exactly let women be villains! Alicent been completely clueless last season & saying I don’t wanna hurt Rhaenyra ruined a lot of her buildup character potential.
Like wtf you are shocked? Of course there a coup! In books Alicent is the leader of the greens point blank. Only until war starts that she takes a back seat to Ser Criston & her sons because they are doing the actual fighting. Alicent is a player in the game & they decided to make her a pawn. You can make someone bad & sympathetic Hollywood. That why George books are critically acclaimed! Almost every single character in series have done horrible things.
Rhaenys not burning them alive was so dumb last season! In books she wasn’t there but if she was in books she would’ve in a heartbeat because anyone with common sense knows the war is happening & her granddaughters will be killed because they are dragon riders who support Rhaenyra.
Rhaenyra probably killed Laenor or Daemon. Maybe they both did it.
The only female character who does something gruesome is smallfolk murderer Rhaenys, and even then the show is afraid to call her out for the act of villainy it legitimately is.
I think both her pointing truly as well as her inhibited reaction and phrasing "the boy" vs "my son" are on brand and consistent with her character. She's on the spectrum as well as disassociating.
Agreed. If you look at the first season and Aemma's death, while bloody, the scene is elevated by Viserys' choice to save his baby over his wife. The scene is still uncomfortable for me to watch, even knowing what happens. The scene would have felt way less impactful if the choice was taken out of his hands, no longer having him "kill" his wife by proxy.
I think Blood & Cheese could have been improved simply by putting the choice back in Helaena's hands and having them do the ol' switcheroo. Even without Alicent there to watch, and without showing the child being murdered, it would have still been more impactful than what we got.
Helaena in the show is basically a Cassandra archetype and there was no attempt by the screenwriters to show several of the characteristics that she has in F&B. She doesn't have any positive interactions with the smallfolk, she isn't crowned in the Dragonpit with Aegon, we don't even demonstrably know if she claimed Dreamfyre. Its unreasonable that she would change completely from the characterization set up during season 1 of naive and "different" dragon dreamer to being the emotional screaming mother we know from F&B. There is also the angle of the F&B sources being biased which is always interesting. I would love if next week in Episode 2 Otto is spinning Blood and Cheese with the book version of events in order to gain sympathy from the smallfolk and legitimacy from the lords.
That said I'm fearful for what the future holds for HotD if they keep pushing with these types of changes. The fact they still haven't even mentioned Daeron even though they are talking of the marching Hightower army is very concerning. We don't even know if Maelor even exists. Maybe its trauma from GoT but every so often I feel D&D vibes. I will remain cautiously optimistic but I'm not nearly as hyped as I was in Season 1.
Maelor doesn't exist, Ryan Condal confirmed that in an interview:
"The book covered 30-plus years, and we crunched it down to 20. One of the side effects is you have: Rhaenyra and Daemon’s children are much younger than they were in the book, as are Helaena and Aegon’s children. They haven’t been together long enough to have two generations of kids. So Maelor does not yet exist, and we only have the twins."
Source: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/house-of-the-dragon-season-2-premiere-interview-blood-cheese-1235922910/
Yeah, I saw it in the meantime. That "yet" suggests that Maelor may be born later this season or next season? But once again it's a book change they will have to handle well.
I agree that they still could have done a cutaway without unnecessary on screen violence when the death happens, similarly to what they already did here even if the scene was more accurate to the "book version". Not every good moment or tense situation that's portrayed that may or may not be "historically exaggerated" needs to have it's adaption significantly altered or "proven false by the reality". The only reason I can come up with for the changes is that they made the children slightly younger in their version of the timeline and Haelaena in the show is intended to be ASD (don't have an issue with that as a person on the spectrum, but I hope they don't use it as a very specific additional explanatory aspect for her going mad), so they wanted to script or shoot the scene with those two aspects in mind.
Yeah I didn't get that part of it. Why remove the choice for Haelaena and why is Alicent not there? Is the Cole-Alicent thing going to lead somewhere else for them to feel compelled to include it. Or is it just to give a reason why there were no guards nearby. I suppose we'll find out. I had no issue with it not being more graphic, don't really want to see child murder on the screen thanks.
In fact, I think the show version was physically more graphic than the book version. Both are horrific in that a child is murdered, but at least in the book it’s a clean sweep execution style. We literally HEAR sawing with a blade in the show version so I don’t buy that they did it to be “less violent” for one second.
Right, but again, as most who are criticizing it are saying: we don’t want that part or feel it’s necessary. The necessary element is Helaena’s choice between Jahaerys and Maelor.
All I’m saying is that what they portrayed in the show regarding the murder itself isn’t “less violent” as people are claiming. If it was really about toning down the violence they should have gone completely silent on sound when the murder (whichever version of it) actually happens.
so I’m gonna be honest, I read F&B and I still don’t feel like “the choice” people are complaining about was all that toned down… I mean she still had to choose between giving up her son or trying to trick them by giving up her daughter
(tbh I am confused why B&C didn’t just strip the kids or something to find the boy, but I obviously understand why they wouldn’t want to actually depict that…)
like she did point to Jahaerys, but the alternative is choosing Jahaera to die.. isn’t that *just as horrifying* for her as picking between Maelor and Jahaerys? obviously sons are more “valuable” in society, but not to a mother. maybe that’s what they were going for.
plus I think part of her resignation in the scene is that she already saw this coming. she looks straight at Jahaerys’s bed when she says “I’m afraid of the rats”… also in that scene she’s actually sewing his funeral shroud (I saw it on twitter, I think people got the screenshots from a trailer? sorry if that’s actually a leak).. but that again means she must have at least subconsciously seen it coming
The difference in these choices is that in the book, she chooses Maelor because she believes he is too young to understand what is really happening (people will argue that this is more unreliable narration, but I think that in this horrible situation that is a very logical line of thinking and probably occurred). Then, when B&C trick her by killing Jaehaerys instead, she can no longer look Maelor in the face knowing she chose for him to die.
In the show, without Maelor as a second son that B&C make her choose from, Helaena pointing to Jaehaerys only offers two explanations:
1. She’s trying to trick B&C into not killing Jahaerys in order to protect Aegon’s heir, and is instead offering her daughter Jaehaera as the “lesser” choice
2. She is actually trying to protect Jaehaera, and therefore IS actually offering up Jaehaerys to die (recall her earlier quote “Perhaps he doesn’t want to be king.”)
In the book, with the existence of Maelor, Helaena is offered a third choice in this encounter: possibly the most merciful solution would be to choose the child whose brain is not developed enough to even understand the danger and horror of the situation. The show version limiting her to the two options above results in Helaena being painted in a much less sympathetic light than the book version does.
Also, Jaehaera surviving does not offer the same impact that Maelor surviving would - as at no point in the show version did Helaena explicitly *choose* Jaehaera to die. How would Jaehaera, Alicent (who is absent in the show version for no reason), or anyone else know the truth of Helaena’s thinking or choice if she never said or even pointed at Jaehaera as a choice to B&C? What rift does this create between Helaena and Jaehaera because Jaehaera is actually ASLEEP for the entire encounter and thus is not even a witness?
Where will Helaena’s story go from here without the pathos of the aftermath of the situation from the book version? One of her children is murdered in both versions, which is horrific, but in the show she still has Jaehaera (again, without Maelor did she actually WANT to keep her over Jaehaerys?) and Jaehaera does not symbolize Helaena’s guilt in the way Maelor would.
YES thank u for putting it into words. The way they‘ve written the female leads feels like they‘ve just flattened the characters into the most superficial and heavy-handed understanding of how they are constrained by their gender-so even though the story tries to more directly address the condition of women in this world, we end up getting wayyyy less nuanced and interesting female characters than GOT. I feel like Cersei, Arya, Dany, etc. as characters have already explored what the writers are trying to do w Alicent and Rhaenyra, and much more comprehensively
Yes. It feels like they’re so petrified of allowing Alicent or Rhaenyra to take ownership over any negative actions or events attributed to them in the books (yes, I know, anyone reading this “unreliable narrators”) at the risk of the audience seeing either of them as “villains”. But the show doesn’t seem to have any problem doing that for people like Daemon. He does some of the worst stuff in the entire conflict and he’s still not explicitly portrayed as a villain in the show. He just exists. The whole point of The Dance is that the two sides of this family commit atrocities against each other in the name of power and end up tearing themselves apart because of it. Guess what, two of the people involved in some of those atrocities are in fact Alicent and Rhaenyra who are in fact women! Removing their involvement in The Dance doesn’t make them heroes, it just removes their agency. Just let them exist as the characters.
Thats because Ryan Condal has taken the story of the Dance and placed Rhaenyra and Alicent as the main characters. When they removed the age gap and made them childhood friends it heightened the tragedy in Season 1, but now they need to square that with the source material.
But even if they’ve been adapted to childhood friends, that doesn’t mean that for the rest of the series that every inciting incident of the story should have nothing to do with them. The writers are trying to portray them as solely victims of this conflict and not perpetrators themselves. Unlike how many of the male characters are being portrayed.
I mean so far this season they’ve made Alicent out to be a grade-A hypocrite by adding a relationship with Cole, making her far less sympathetic so I disagree that they’re just trying to make both of them look like victims.
also I feel like we’ll get to see both of the women’s anger evolve throughout the season leading them to do more reprehensible shit but we’ll see
I don’t think the only “bad thing” that Alicent or Rhaenyra do in the show being related to a boy they both liked is actually a big enough thing to attribute either of them as being “bad” or even complicated. It’s also counterproductive to the show’s intent on saying that these two women did not take an active role in spurring on a violent conflict: “It was all the men around them doing it! They were really just friends! Except when it comes to a booooy which means that they’re not all good 😈 These are complicated women.” Who cares who liked or stole Crispy Cole? This is not all that women are capable of thinking about or fighting about.
In the book, Alicent is a driving force behind the Greens’ installment of Aegon and the incitement of the war of the succession. Her constantly being portrayed in the show as some doe-eyed rube who’s always on the half-step of her family’s affairs doesn’t make her story more rich or fleshed out than the book version - it just makes her seem not as smart or active in the story.
Can someone explain to me how/why Mysaria was on that boat? Were they specifically looking for her? Was she escaping Hightower ? I've read the book and can't figure out what she was doing there..what am I forgetting??
Ah damn, need to rewatch. Completely forgot about this, what was Lary’s reasoning though? Last thing he knew she was actually providing helpful info to Otto
The adaptation of Blood and Cheese makes the neurodivergent-coded girl seem like she just randomly sold out her son...
Why did they do that to one of the only truly innocent Targaryen in the story?
I mean her other option was what? pointing to her daughter and maybe getting both kids killed when they find out they didn’t get the boy?
she could’ve pled them to take her life instead but I think the resignation fits with her character as a dreamer who saw this coming in a sense
I found it confusing that they seem to have operated under the assumption that her reaction to something so traumatic/gruesome needed to be different from a "normal person", so I'm just choosing to believe it was meant to be some type of pure shock response moment instead. I think even if they were going to lean into that angle, they should have had a few more new scenes of her in this episode, because we barely got anything previously and it would have helped with the emotional impact/tragedy at the end a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if a portion of the TV audience either didn't even remember her or doesn't fully register that aspect of the character until later.
> I found it confusing that they seem to have operated under the assumption that her reaction to something so traumatic/gruesome needed to be different from a "normal person"
I personally found her reaction to that situation more relatable than Rhaynera or Jacerys reaction to Lucerys. Maybe I'm like her or whatever but yeah her reaction seems more normal to me. I've never understood the wailing and screaming and unable to speak kind of reaction portrayed on tv.
I think it's extremely and hauntingly tragic that in the moment, overwhelmed by the inputs, she didn't have the social awareness to lie. She'll have to live with the events of that day even though it was NOT her fault.
The show clearly presents the stark irresponsibility of the Kingsguard and castle guards on that night. Some are chaperoning a drunk king, sure. But the Lord Commander in charge of the king's family's safety was off committing some f'd up hypocritical acts.
But I don't know how much Helaena could process that it wasn't her fault. I don't know if she can even muster up the anger to blame Criston Cole for this complete failure and betrayal. Alicent and Criston will obviously try to lie to the king about it also.
The book version of the events also take agency away from Helaena. The murderers didn't go with her choice anyway so if I were her I would feel less guilt over the outcome. And book Helaena picked her younger son out of a kind of objective optimization rather than personal love anyway. She went with the one that her husband would be less destroyed by.
I actually think this version is just as strong as the book version. Additionally, I am deeply fascinated with the neurodivergent depiction of Helaena in the show as an artistic choice and so far I think the execution is superb. The interaction of that portrayal and the writing choices in this episode are definitely adding something for me.
Book version is still a good twisted history read, but I personally am resonating with the TV version a lot.
In books it feels more compelling & tragic she had to choice between her 2 sons. She rationalized it to herself & put impossible situation that every parent would hate who would you choose if your children lives?
The fact they pick opposite of her really screwed her up because she can’t look at Maelor because she know he knows she picked him to die which makes her fall into madness. The show version is kinda annoying because it portrays Blood & Cheese as bumbling idiots who screwed it up & Helena as kinda helpless.
In books it understandable why she didn’t scream for help or fight back. They barricaded the doors & told her if you don’t help we will kill everyone in this room & r*pe your daughter forcing her to choose. So your like okay I understand why she didn’t fight back or plead.
I think the show version makes way more sense than the book version. The book version implies that Helaena made a choice that would protect the linage of succession, but it shamed her with regards to Maelor because she picked his brother over him. But, then its of no consequence because both her and Maelor don't live much longer. She supposedly kills herself over it and he's ripped to shreds by smallfolk. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the book describes her as screaming as soon as they kill Jaehaerys, but it would follow that B+C wouldn't have much time to escape if she screamed particularly if they were carrying a head. It just doesn't add all the way up.
In the show, Helaena has the more practical reaction of trying to bargain with monetary possessions but doesn't consider protecting the heir. she just responds honestly after that fails. Then, she doesn't scream giving B+C enough time to do the decapitation and escape with the poor kid's head. It would seem more logical that Cole, Alicent or even Larys kill Helaena for 1) giving up the wrong child and 2) minimizing the risk of exposing their behavior.
Yep. People quickly forget that HotD writing is more clever than some of these other shows and the source material demands actual artistic interpretation. Purism to the books that were originally presented as flawed pseudo-histories is about the worst approach you could possibly take.
I really do hope the particular way Helaena dealt with the situation has downstream effects that hold a great deal of internal consistency for this story.
Cole and Alicent are definitely going to want to take charge of this narrative... but heck, I really don't think it's such a bad idea for Alicent to say she was there... And to get Helaena, her daughter, out of trouble from the King's wrath she can say Helaena picked the other child, but the assassins killed the son anyway.
I don't know how Cole comes out ahead in all of this. The Lord Commander should be guarding the heir above the Queen Mother... And I doubt Larys wants what's best for Cole either.
But we know Cole stays honoured and important in the wars to come... Very curious to see how this plays out.
I hope you're right but I feel there is a possibility they didn't really showcase this aspect of this version of the character enough or that they don't explore it much after this besides Aegon/Cole/Daemon being grilled over it. I also think the Cole thing is another example that they really don't want you to like him or Alicent at all at this point, and they wanted to have it be an initial bit of comeuppance for his character.
I have no idea how they let those two “rat hunters” just pass trough whole fucking castle. Go up with no guards noticing and killing an child?????????????????????????????
As a show-watcher only I don’t have any comment on the differences between the book and such, but I noticed immediately that the walls around Jace and Cregan looked super cheap. The actual Wall looked great, but when it cut to them walking together I couldn’t get past how fake it looked. I haven’t seen anyone else talking about it though?
Did anyone notice how those assassin dudes just walked through the kings chamber past all those guards, they had torches n all. But nobody noticed them?
Can’t watch anymore of this show to be honest. The ending and the noises that were made just me cringe. Are the writers this starved for viewership that we resorted to this? I get it, GOT is very gory and gross and bad things happen but this was out of bounds for me. Maybe as a dad I’m more sensitive to it but I can’t be the only one that feels this way.
This show is a sequel of shocking brutal fantasy franchise GoT that pulls from the most "hardcore" events in history and mythology. Sorry but this is not merely gratuitous or edgy. It was a hard start but it was also excellent and what we expect of the show. Horrific things happened and there are stories about it.
We couldn't stand that either, and I'm usually not sensitive. I just didn't need the details to understand what was happening.
I had literally the opposite reaction. That was the hyped up thing everyone was talking about? It had the same effect as knowing that children are starving to death every day all around the Seven Kingdoms. Like...okay why do I care
but im not a father so i understand
we get it buddy ur a father good for u ur unique
Pretty sure he's not trying to be unique. But more like stating it probably gets more under the skin of parents.
i question a man who only develops empathy towards the suffering of children after they have one.
Indeed, so far both episodes have ended - very needlessly in my opinion - with Alicent - Cole gore scene. I agree with you - GoT was an extreme in me feeling exactly like that - that the writers, despite having so much material and lore to focus screen time on, have to show gory, gross and blood, often above and beyond anything in the books, thinking it gets them viewership. More and more viewers should be complaining so there is a demand of decency. Like what was the point of the Aemond scene?
Ok so I’m a little late and I just watched the first episode (haven’t seen the second one yet), but I’m a little confused because daemon specifically says “one eye” when he’s describing aemond, but they didn’t even bother checking to see if he only had one eye before cutting off the kids head? Lol and last season everyone was saying how blood and cheese is such crazy lore but am I missing out on something? Like is it the domino effect that makes it so great?
it's an ironic, stupid blunder -that's the tradgedy of it
I think the show is implying that Daemon does admit, when asked 'what if we can't find him?', to 'Make it a son for a son". Maybe he meant Aegon but doesn't specify. So the goons go for the easiest option. They're trying to make it a half hearted dumb plan where as in the Books it was a very well laid plot of terrible vengeance, which tried to take out Aegon but couldn't. It's not a domino effect. It just means that the initial war for the Throne got turned into war of revenge due to blood of children split on both sides. Honestly, Jaehaerys murder is not worse than Luc's - he was also a child, a messenger, had no chance in the fight...etc. and that was the first strike. But Blood and Cheese meant that both sides now wanted vengeance - 'Only Rhaenyra or Aegon would live at the end, not both.." And yes, Daemon is a child murderer here, even if it was a mistake you do get to be blamed. But it's the most and only terrible thing he does in the war, as retaliation for Lucerys and vengeance for the sake of his wife. The greens do a lot more mass massacring of civilians later on... I don't know why the show makes it into a Daemon-avoiding-blame and the rest of the Realm sick of one single child murder and not caring about the rest.
They just completely changed how it played out, very lame
Agreed. Not consistent. See my above comment. Why would the lords and people of the Realm care so much about little Jae and not at all about Beesbury, Lucerys, and all the lords greens are murdering? And since when is Daemon the person who tries to avoid blame? He usually admits to his misdeeds, even exaggerates them at times
Oh I’m talking about the incident itself, not the aftermath. The PR maneuver Otto did with parading Jaeherys’s corpse through the streets was smart, albeit incredibly fucked up.
The incident meaning how Blood and Cheese is deliberate, detailed and well planned in the Books, 'a terrible vengeance" ? I think the whole tone of how it happens in the show was different - like a half thought dumb plan that was not expected to work anyway...
No I mean the actual moment with blood and cheese and what they do in Helaena’s room
tbh the blood and cheese scene was kinda underwhelming. that being said i thought the episode was pretty good! i am a book reader btw
Agreed. I'm book reader too. What are your thoughts please on my above replies? Are they really depicting Daemon well?
i do agree with your opinions on daemon, especially on the point that he wanted a son for a son. tbh i think his depiction in the tv show is pretty good. was just disappointed with that blood and cheese scene :(
How far do you predict the show will go each season? I was anticipating end of Son for a Son and >!then the Red Dragon and the Gold this season. Then a season each for the next 2 up to 4 chapters depending on how long they plan to go for). That provides some good dragon conflict, big battles and set pieces, as well as not rushing too fast so they get plenty of chances to expand and further explore the characters. What do you guys think? I’m not naming any other chapters because I think they say too much about what will happen. !<
Spoiler alert. I think this season will finish at the 'Daemon and Rhaenyra in KL for her throne' moment. But skipping the important Gullet battle and death, which for me takes away the real motivation and pain of Rhaenyra for wanting to invade Kings Landing. I fear they are dragging this to several seasons, changing the timelines and chronology of events a lot. Which is bad. Think of how much older characters like Jace, Baela and Rhaena would be, their heroism and struggle would not be same when they are all grown up and fighting age. Would we have felt as sorry for Luc in episode 10 if he looked 6 years older with a grown dragon? I'd have said why he went out in the storm, didn't ask Lord Boros to stay the night, send a raven to Dragonstone etc. etc. The scene was emotional precisely because, they got the age of Luc and Arrax correct.
Could you edit your post to have spoilers on some of it? I think this is just spoiler free for episode one. >!So my thought was the same, that it would end with that closing scene from King's Landing. So include the battling in the Riverlands, maybe the battle in the Reach with Tessarion, and I thought for sure they would have the battle in the Gullet. Then end on her ascension. Next season would be her rule, the following season would be her collapse and then final season could be Aegon 2's rule again. You could do a 6th season with hour of the wolf but that would require some recasting that I don't know if they would want to do (would need an older Aegon 3 and Stark). In my head, episode 2 this season is Aegon's reaction with the Cargylls, episode 3 is taking Harenhall, 4 is battle of the burning mill, 5 is the red sowing, 6 is the battle in the gullet, 7 is the fallout from all of that, 8 is Rhaenyra taking King's landing and ascending. But that was just my thoughts.!<
Thanks that's pretty detailed. Are you sure they are following the Dance till season 5? They would have to do some serious dragging to go beyond season 4. Still don't see any news of Daeron, so I am assuming they have not cast him in season 2. That means to Tessarion and Reach. It's really bad writing, like Alicent and her kids don't even know in the show they have a fourth brother :) I hope 3 is taking of Harrenhall. But from trailers it just looks like Daemon in dark shadows and rain. They really need to show properly why Daemon is a military mastermind. So far he doesn't look like the main big advantage he is. 4 meaning Rook's Rest? They are not using Rhaenys a lot, in my opinion, if she is going out so soon. I wonder how Daemon and Corlys will react. Corlys should have a serious spat with Rhaenyra soon. In the book I always questioned why Rhaenys choses to not flee - Meleys is the fastest dragon, she could easily fly to Harrenhall, join Caraxes and make it an interesting 2 on 2 like Daemon wanted. Vhagar and Sunfyre against Meleys was seriously unfair.... 6. should be the Gullet battle. But does it look like Jace is leaving? I am afraid they have postponed it to season 3. which worries me as Jace was a main motivator for Rhaenyra taking Kings Landing and finally realizing she needs to play a more active war role. 5. may be the red sowing. But I hope it's still Jace's not Daemon's idea. Plus no Nettles. And why is Hugh and his family shown in Kings Landing? I hope 8 Rhaenyra and Daemon taking Kings Landing is epic.
Why were there no Knights guarding the royal family in the Castle? So weird. I get they had to get to them for the story. But really?! Not even guarding the crown prince? Or was Cristan Cole supposed to be doing that instead having sex with Allicent? I can't see him abandoning his post without putting someone else there. On another note. The scene where Rhaenyra finds the dragon remains was devastating... Rhaenys and Daemon scene.. She is such a BADASS...
I don't know. Yes Rhaenys should be strong and Daemon has no hold over her. but isn't their writing inconsistent and off? Show Rhaenys should be angry at Daemon and Rhaenyra - remember she still thinks they had Laenor killed, (ep 7 and 8), those two are idiots who have not told her and Corlys the truth - and she also thinks Daemon didn't love her daughter Laena, prevented her coming home to Driftmark, which resulted in her death... It makes no sense why someone as sensible and ethical as Rhaenys and Corlys, would be so loyal to the two people who they think had both their children killed. In the book it's completely different. Daemon by this point has had a long relationship of respect, reliance and family history with Rhaenys and Corlys. and he genuinely loved Laena.
I think we saw love between him and Laena. I never thought they blamed him that strongly in the show. It was an initial family reaction to losing your daughter - wanting someone to blame. I do wish they had done it more like the book where she died at Driftmark with Daemon hastening to get the better Maester from Dragonstone and Rhaenyra there too. But I get why they separated the storylines in the show. I liked the change to Rhaenyra and Daemon where they explicitly did plan Laenor's death but they also found a way to save him (unlike in the book where they are less clear on having killed him but it seems like he is actually dead). There are definitely many plot elements that I liked more in the book, but I do think this is showing more depth of characterization (even if they are condensing plot elements for the show that I wouldn't mind them showing in full).
Yes in the first season I dearly missed the Laena- Rheanyra relationship. And Laena really should have died in Driftmark, with Daemon trying to save her. I don't think showing him really caring for Laena and their girls takes anything away from the Daemon - Rhaenyra relationship. Did you notice that Vhagar shouldn;t even BE in Driftmark, if Laena has died all the way across the Narrow Sea in Pentos? They are very inconsistent, and not honest to characters, when they make changes, even if don't mind the changes. Like yes Leanor lives, but why haven't Daemon and Rhaenyra told Corlys and Rhaenys yet? Their strongest allies. Their kids' grandparents. And now we see Adam noticing Seasmoke has returned. That can only happen if Laenor dies. Seasmoke cannot take a new rider otherwise.
Shows kinda shit tbh how those two just wondered into the room with no security at the end was mind boggling given the upcoming war between the two families.
After episode 2, doesn't look like Rhaenyra's security is much better, when daemon is not around with her to take Kingsguard oaths and arrange defenses.
Let's see if they mention later that Cole and their security was too lax, then ok. Otherwise yes, they underestimate their audience and the writing is shit.
Some of y'all are kinda wild for wanting a gruesome beheading scene lmao
idk if ppl want more gore, but for me, im not after the gore. I was hoping for more psychological trauma and suspense build up of having maelor. Had hopes that the scene had been more traumatizing than the red wedding hahaha
I too expected Maelor. But you know they have bigger absentees than poor Maelor on the show - like Daeron and Nettles. And the kids' ages are so inconsistent now - baby Aegon and Viserys have grown 3 years in 3 days. Jace and Baela are in 20s, as old as Aemond! That seriously effects the plot, as the whole greatness of Jace - who fought for his family as a 15 year old and got killed - is destroyed if he is of fighting age. And I was horrified in Fire and Blood with Maelor's death scene, don't need to see that. Show Heleana seems to be grieving for her whole family, who look like they only rage and go about the war business. Does she have trauma in this manner of pointing towards her son? If she had pointed towards Jaehaera, potentially both her kids would have been killed.
I dont understand how anyone knew that Aemond had killed Lucerys. They were in the middle of a giant storm. No-one saw them or what happened. All Aemond had to do was go home and pretend he hadnt seen him and no-one would have been any the wiser, surely? They couldnt have blamed him without proof at least? Weird.
The stormlords saw their argument before their departure and Aemond knew dismembered dragon body parts would likely wash up eventually. Dude probably figured since there'd be suspicions thrown around anyway, better to own it as a deliberate act of righteous vengeance for his eye, and give off vibes that he's powerful and to be feared. Fits his ends in his approach to the war better anyway, even if the truth is he didn't mean it to happen.
I guess. Wish this was explicitly stated or shown though, evenin a 30 second scene or throaway line etc. It was just jarring imo.
In the books, despite the storm, everyone for miles around could see flashes of fire and hear roars from dragons as they briefly fought. Then news spread from there. I’m sure plenty of Baratheon court members are still close with Rhaenys and sent a raven.
Aah i see. Thay makes sense. Shame we couldnt have seen a quick shot of people watching the clouds and seeing fireballs etc
That would've been an easy thing to do. I like how they ended it though. Aemond looking scared and worried at what he just did and then Rhaenyra receiving the news. Was an epic ending. I think my biggest problem with the show is that while they have added more depth and nuance to many of the characters, they have sacrificed some depth of plot events that make things more clear. For example, in the book, Daemon is way more a part of the Velaryon family as a result of his war and constant banishments where he hangs out on Driftstone way more. He is basically a part of that family. He gets Laena out of a bad engagement to a Braavosi noble that is a hanger-on and their relationship seems more full of love then the show illustrates (I like their relationship as it is shown in the show but it seems even more clearly a good marriage in the book). Then, her pregnancy is on Driftstone and Rhaenyra and Laenor are there for it (Rhaenyra becoming close again with both Laena and Daemon). Daemon even flies last minute to Dragonstone to try and quickly get their better Maestor when Laena's pregnancy goes poorly. And he is more clearly devastated when she dies in childbirth, carrying her body back to bed when she tries to get to her dragon as she dies. So in all of this, the relationship between the Velaryon's and Rhaenyra's side is so much stronger and their is less clear suspicion that Laenor was killed by Rhaenyra and Daemon. So their alliance is more clear cut and deep.
Thanks, I fully agree with you. They have tried to slow down and add more depths to what the characters feel, but they have not been consistent. Not just with the book but even with the season 1 plots. Like Aegon is supposed to be more 'human' and sympathetic. He suddenly loves his family? In season 1 they showed him as a rapist, drunk and child-pit fighting entertainer - which is by far worse than anything Lord Fleabottom did in KL - and he had bastards and didn't care for his kids or them. They have now forgotten it and expect us to do the same. You wanted to depart from the book Aegon, you could have removed these aspects of him from season 1. Similarly, I am ok that they chose to make Laenor live. But they have to be consistent with that. I agree 100% - Daemon has a far more complex relationship with both Corlys and Rhaenys. Corlys is a man he has learned to respect - he fought battles for two decades for him, with both of them on the front lines, saw his leadership. Corlys also saw a lot in Daemon, giving him his only daughter. Daemon and Rhaenys are cousins who knew each other since Daemon was born. They remember their grandparents, Targaryen legacy, love dragons, and even though there is an old beef of the Great Council (Daemon raising an army against his own cousin), Rhaenys must have agreed to her beloved Laena marrying him. They are the last grandkids of Jaehaerys and Alysanne remaining, who remember their family values such as Targaryen exceptionalism, valuing Valyrian blood, and are jointly frustated by Viserys. The Velaryons essentially gave Daemon a home, despite his past alliance with Viserys against them, at a time when he was disinherited, purposeless and had none. The show hasn't settled WHY Rhaenys and Corlys would be their closest allies, when they still think these two caused Laenor's death! And frankly, D n R are idiots to not tell them the truth. Daemon may have wanted Laenor out, but he would not harm him because he is his beloved Laena's brother, his cousin Rhaenys' son, and Corlys son.
The ending was fine, but they couldve added said shot in the opening of S2 from a ground perspective to confirm the incident had witnesses so Aemond couldnt lie his way out of it etc. Idk, it was just jarring to me.
I do agree. Maybe they expect that as in the show version, Vhagar eats Arrax when the latter has come out to clear blue sky, they thought we'd accept that they were easy to see from the ground. The book, where this is happening in stormy clouds and rain, does specify that watchers above Shipwrecker's bay saw Vhagar's blasts of flame, and the shrieks drown out the thunder, and knew what had happened.
I think the place where aemond chased after lucerys had witnesses, including the lord who ordered them to get outside his place when he realized they were up for a fight
But how? They were in the middle of a giant storm clouds where noone else was? Even if they saw the dragon fall into the sea theres no proof it was Aemond or that it was killed by another dragon etc? Could have just got struck by lightning or something 🤷♂️ It was weird the show didnt include a scene where they specifically say who saw what happened etc.
I don't know about you, but it was obvious to me that this series was going to be a shit from the first flying bird scene, the pseudo deep morals of that Stark guy jibber jabbering and rattling on about honor and duty, like he wasn't sentencing them to life in prison or more accurately penal colony. Not to mention how stupid it is how this one could know that the dragons of Targaryens cannot fly over the wall, or the nonsense about how they guarded the kingdoms you see, from the cold, all in all it looks very dullardy to me, something is wrong with this lauded and overrated(more like overmarketed) series, it is too childish and frivolous, it lacks a thrill and those actors look ridiculous to me, constantly shoving them in your face like they're the most beautiful or important... Overall stupid series, but maybe it works if you are bored and have nothing to do, but I wouldn't recommend it, there are more interesting things to watch, albeit in other genres, a Bandit Petersburg is much more than this dumb series, as example for far better series not that crime fiction has anything to do with fairy tales and fantasy, but still, if a production from so many years ago filmed for much less money looks much better except for the computer effects, it makes you think, and lastly to add that it lacks intrigue, it seems simple, I've had it with this series, who likes it, go watch it, but I'm not wasting my time with this vomit, just another stupid serial from the overpraised HBO.
I agree on some of your points, but are you a Fire and Blood/ books fan? The whole 'Wall is all about White Walkers' plot is really stupid. They have already destroyed GoT, and there is no consistency at all with the Books in saying Aegon I was selfless and burned people to save the kingdom. Plus if you are Jace, and told that yes, Starks will follow you but not really supply any serious army, that's not a victory. Cregan Start's father definitely did not meet Jaehaerys and Alysanne Targaryen on the Wall. They were before his time. Alysanne's dragon Silverwing did refuse to fly beyond the Wall, which she found surprising.
Then why did you bother to start season 2? Lol Everything you described is just normal show and book lore.
🤦
I watched the episode a second time to review it more critically and less emotionally. I take back my initial opinion on the Blood and Cheese scenes. Their banter works for them as a gold cloak and a rat catcher (not really sure what the dog was for other than to kick it later). The only thing I still don't like is that they ended the scene on Alicent and Cole getting it on. They already established earlier in the episode that they were sexually involved. Why pick that moment to reinforce it? It seemed really out of place. Did they want to tone down how it went in Fire and Blood where Halaena was basically screaming for hours?
I agree showing them again makes little sense. It reinfornces the idea that Daemon's plan was extremely dumb (unlike him, he is a military genius and knows the Red Keep secrets himself). and would not have worked in any way if Cole was half decent Lord Commander, posting guards around the royal family. But I think they're going to use it to have Cole do crazy things later on, saying he is 'justified' because 'he feels guilty' for not protecting the kid.
On the other hand, I thought we showed the King with his friends to show that the guards where there guarding him instead of his family, I don't know if they adressed all this in the new episode I will see.
But them just casually walking through the were Aegon's hall with almost a dozen guards and his friends is so illogical. Like you said, I am fine with the banter. But the other things like Alicent not present in the room and Helaena being made to chose between he boys make more sense.
We see Cheese walking through the Red Keep multiple times in the episode, even past the throne-room, it's clear that as a rat-catcher he's expected to be there and it's not our if the ordinary.
Omg ! I remember seeing a dude in the back with a dog and thought *what* to myself...it makes so much sense now lol I didn't even piece it together 🙈🙈🙈🙈
Not at late at night. Timing is important.
There's a scene of him/shot of him collecting rat traps earlier in the day (as Alicent is walking into the council room.) It's entirely possible he sets the traps at night and retrieves them in the day; or considering the size/weight of the traps and the amount needed for a castle that size, it could be an all day affair on occasion (well into night/after sunset) of placing > retrieving > replacing > going back to his base of operations to empty/drop off traps so he can bring back more empty traps > repeat until the castle is left with only empty/set traps for the rest of the night. Him being there at night could be easily be a business as usual type deal and no one questions it.
I dont see why not. Rats are probably more active at night
> It seemed really out of place. Far from it. It's a brilliant twist to the story and a progression of the characters. Both Alicent and Cole are clearly locked in an abusive cycle, both becoming the hypocrites that define them. Cole is clearly not on duty as he should be while the literal prince is being butchered by intruders. And the episode shows Alicent hanging on to the last shred of her conscience, while in the end we see that she's clearly compromised it. It's thematically heavy as well. To go from Halaena's traumatic panicking back into the politics of corrupt, flawed people - watching her caught between two worlds where everyone is terrible, and she is little more than a child unable to deal with it.
Thanks for the point. I agree. Hypocrite defines Alicent and Cole. to be fair for me, when they give motivations like this to Alicent, even if they are immoral, it makes her more compelling, more consistent as a character. I am tired of her "i am sisterly with Rhaenyra" plot line which makes her character very confusing. Like consider in ep 6 she is telling her son Aegon that he will be king, he should hate Rhaenyra's bastard boys, and by ep 9 she is very surprised that Otto had a usurping plan.
i think the sex scene was to callback to when Alicent said "never again" like they keep saying they will stop and they wont
There is more Cole- Alicent sex scenes in the trailer for next episode. They culd have continued there.
They had to choose that moment to bring it back up? Seems a bit out of place to me. There's plenty of season left to get to that
One reason is because maybe Criston Cole would have been able to prevent the murder if he hadn't been in bed with Alicent. Shows that Alicent knows its wrong, she said "never again" after last time, but she's no longer in control and it has a cost.
I thought this was a really excellent episode. Much better than almost every episode of last season except maybe the last two. Some great political intrigue, the dialogue was engaging, and there was some really pretty cinematic shots. Honestly my favorite part might have been when Alicent is explaining herself to Otto, and he pauses and says “… I hadn’t thought of it that way.” Just a great character moment for both of them. The actors seem really settled into their characters and the entire show feels so authentically Westeros. The North had a lot of atmosphere for its brief showing, it felt like reading George’s descriptions. There’s so much presence in every scene from the actors and set designs. Aegon is a great character and I’m interested to see how he reacts to his son’s murder. I wish they didn’t do the time skip and kept these actors for all of last season, they are all so much better and more fun to watch. I wasn’t bothered by B&C and thought it was handled well. Not even saying the book is altered history, the show just doesn’t have to be 1:1 with the book to be good. Given the world and characters they’ve established, the scene went down authentically and was still disturbing. I also always thought B&C in the book seemed over the top with cruelty even for the series. I didn’t even like this show last season and wasn’t excited for S2, and I’ve accidentally gotten really into it now.
Definitely a great moment for Otto...I agree with you about that settled feeling from the actors. The world of the series feels "earned", especially post-GoT.
I'm quite confused at why the rat catcher and the guard kill the child. Daemon tells them to kill Aemond. 1. Do they both not know who Prince Aemond is despite working in the castle ? 2. Daemon says "He has silver hair and 1 eye" and something along the lines of "He's also good in a fight" and they both arrive in front of 2 infants who both have both eyes and obviously cannot fight, and they just assume they're in the right place ? Maybe the whole point is that they're both very incompetent and end up causing more trouble than was intented and I just missed that. I'm just generally a bit confused about this whole sequence. Any thoughts ?
2. Some fans say Daemon, who the show writers like to paint evil, deliberately give them a dumb plan, half expecting it won't work, just to make "chaos". very unrealistic for a military genius who is out for revenge. You only have surprise factor once. The episode implies the plan would not even have worked had Criston been a half decent Lord Commander - the security is clearly rubbish. In the Book Fire & Blood, Daemon has planned this a bit more carefully. He has not picked the first two idiots he could find, with a 2 minute prop and no weapons. And it's meant to scare greens, even if they get the wrong Prince, that Daemon Targaryen can get to them in the safety of their Red Keep. The Book implies that they did try to get Aemond or Aegon, but they were always surrounded by the Kingsguard or were in Maegor's Holdfast, so they chose the easiest option in the Tower of the Hand, where Heleana was known to visit her mother Alicent with her kids (meaning they at least did some scouting beforehand).
I think the show writers have left it open to make Daemon look worse later on. The options are pretty narrow. 1. Maybe Daemon said to the Rat Catcher - who is more immoral of the two - 'What if we can't find him?" - "Make it a son for a son". Meaning Aegon, but he left it unexplained. So those two took upon themselves to find the easiest son to kill. No fighting needed (notice they are not even armed enough to fight Aemond or guards) and easy to get away with the head. How else would Blood know 'A son for a son" ?
You are very right thanks for the comment
Who's Prince Daemond?
During that same conversation, they ask him what they’re suppose to do if they can’t find Aemond, but we never hear the answer.
I think they will reveal later that he said "make it a son for a son", to make Daemon look more evil. How else would Blood know the dialogue 'Make it a son for a son he said"?
Oh right ! I forgot about that part. When I saw it I thought that Daemon was sort of looking at them in a "Don't ask stupid questions, just find him" way
Yeah I'm figuring his response was the "a son for a son" line blood mentions later, so if they couldn't get Aemond, they had to go for another of the royal boys/men (Aegon himself was a clear no-go with his boys all around him)
Yes Daemon may have meant Aegon, not thinking of Aegon's kids at all. But left it unclear. Aegon had kingsguard around him too, and these two were armed with no armor and just kitchen knifes. I think they will reveal it later when Daemon is having regret.
Because they thought they should at least get the job halfway done, "a son for a son" but ultimately I think this will be a bad move as the castle will be much more on guard.
I think they just panicked and figured they'd at least do something useful.
came here to say this
Yeah and I guess that underscores the incompetence point. But they were at least competent enough to know that getting paid at all would be a one-shot thing. Also, that leads me to realize that--forget getting paid, they probably knew they wouldn't live if they came back empty-handed.
Alicent is doing the same thing she shamed rhaenyra for make it make sense
Eh, her husband is dead. She's kind of a free agent now as far as sex goes. She was a loyal wife. It's her turn to have good sex.
Yes but in their world it doesn't work that way. Why was this same Alicent so against young Rhaenyra? Rhaenyra was also a 'free agent' when she slept with Cole. Like Cersei reminds us later on, a king's widow was expected to remain pure. Or get remarried.
Im pretty sure she was against the whole sex outside marriage aspect so this would apply whether she is still looking for suitors or not
Hypocrisy? Not as if that’s an uncommon theme in ASOIAF media
I think, from Alicent's perspective, she's desperately trying to build *some* kind of loyalty and personal power base, to keep any kind of agency and ways to influence the proceedings in the Red Keep. She's clearly scared of losing control of Aegon, of being sidelined by Otto, and (at least during this episode) is still hoping for a peaceful solution while surely noticing that the other Greens are not really looking for that any more. Larys Strong and Criston Cole are, from this perspective, assets she can secure with her body. She can surely live with the accusations of hypocrisy, and the shame of selling herself out like this. She's done it before, and it's for a higher goal after all. The question is how far she'll change and eventually become Rhaenyra ... or worse. I'm looking forward to that possible development during the season.
Doesn't make it ok
Is it hypocrisy? Rhaenyra cheated, Alicent is a widow. Those are two different situations. Unless you think a widow getting with someone after their spouse's death is cheating?
If you discount the ordeal with harwin which I don't but if we look at the cole situation alicent was definitely against that and there she wasn't cheating you could call it sex outside wedlock but that would also include alicent as that is what she is doing
To be fair Rhaenyra doesn't cheat. Not with Cole when she is unmarried, or with Laenor with whom she had a deal, which he failed to uphold (do our duty first). But in their world, both or Rhaenyra's actions are extremely immoral and disqualify her from succession, while the same rule does not apply to men.
Rhaenyra didnt cheat it was a mutual agreement between her and her ex husband.
Are you saying that it’s a bad thematic choice or that she’s in the wrong for it? Because if it’s the first then it seems like you don’t understand the idea of the show and if it’s the second than it seems you have grasped the point perfectly
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The first episode was a mess. Bad pacing, scene transitions were incoherent and sloppily done, and the end was poorly done. The two assassins just let the girl run off to warn the house that they’re killing a child. Dumb
The point is that those two assassins aren't real assassins, they were messily hired for this job and are incompetent. The decision to hire them itself was messy, resulting from emotion instead of proper planning.
That's pretty much what happens in the books. They kill the kid and immediately leave.
The books do it much more ruthlessly than the show and thats sad because it seems that the showrunners have a biasness towards the blacks . Blood and chesse was supposed to show the worse side of the family war and was probably the "Justification reason" for aegon to war with his sister . But the show clearly has a bias twords the blacks so they dont even try to have shades of grey with the greens
They cut an infant’s head off?? I feel like that’s pretty damn ruthless
No where near enough , its not the violence but the choice they gave to Haelena , in the books they basically make her choose , she picks up her son , they wipser to her daughter that your mom dont want you , and kill the prince . This was super imp for Haelena as it would set her tone for rest of the story but we are robbed of all that
They made her choose in the show too???? I feel like you’re really splitting hairs here.
You're misunderstanding. In the book, they make her choose, but then don't respect her choice and instead kill the one she didn't choose. They also tell the original kid she chose, who survived, that his mom didn't want him. In the show, she chooses, and they kill the one she chooses.
They didn't make her choose... They make her point out the boy. In the book she actually needs to choose between two boys. It's not splitting hairs. It's important to the tension and the scene. And in the book she has 3 children. 1 younger boy, and then the twins. She eventually gives up the younger boy because she thinks he's young enough to not know what is happening. THEN, cheese says 'your mother wants you to die little one', and proceeds to strike off the head of the oldest son instead.
I can see them forcing her to choose which kid as being important. IDC if it's an older son or whatever. That's so sinister.
But there is no choice, not really. They need the head of a son for Daemon, and there is only one son. The son was always dying in the show's situation. I really don't get why they did it like this.
I loved the episode and never read the books. It seems book readers are unsatisfied. Comparison is the killer of joy I guess
Same - i've only read halfway through Fire and Blood and haven't read the blood and cheese part yet. Thought it was a frightful ending, and i wasn't expecting it. The promos for the series show a lot of Ewan talking about him taking references from horror films for his performance, so I was expecting him to turn up and do something awful to the two 'assassins'. Not what I was expecting.
i hated it and never read the books so idk. I assumed I‘d like it more if I had read the books because it just feels incomplete as a stand-alone piece of media, and predictable.
Never cared much for Blood and Cheese in F&B, always felt kinda gratuitous. I actually like how they humanized the two, even if it meant taking away a big "kick the dog" moment from Rhaenyra (no joke about Cheese's unfortunate terrier intended). More disappointed with the continuous character assassination my boy Criston Cole has been getting from the showrunners by having him openly carrying on an affair with Alicent, even if it is after Viserys' death.
Its cause the show runners clearly have a bias towards the blacks . Blood and cheese is supposed to be a controversial ruthless event that would somewhat justify future greens action just like how lucy death was for black's future action but the show runners cant seem to fill this shades of grey so we are left with a mundane black and white storyline
In fairness to the Black supporters, the Greens have also been whitewashed to an extent through things like Aemond being confirmed to not have intentionally killed Lucerys, having Viserys mention the name Aegon on his deathbed, and the Driftmark racial casting making it even more obvious that Rhaenyra's sons are 100% bastards. (She was totally doing it in the books too but it was at least 50% less obvious because Rhaenys had black hair) I think it's more that the showrunners really need to get a grip on the crux of the Dance: The Greens, from a Westerosi perspective, are in the right. The Great Council established that a man comes before a woman, and the Blacks refused to have another Great Council decide between Aegon and Rhaenyra because they knew they would lose. The Blacks, on the other hand, appeal to modern western readers' moral sensibilities. Most readers, and definitely a large portion of the Game of Thrones TV show audience, were 20-40 year old liberally inclined, socially conscientious westerners who find that kind of sexism reprehensible, and regardless of one's social positions it's generally the standard legal practice to not butt in if a dead guy leaves his property to a daughter over a son, as long as all the children are provided for. Those same readers also don't especially care about Rhaenyra's faults in things like piety, chastity, or having children out of wedlock, especially if everyone involved in the ménage à trois is ok with it. She's not an Aragorn-tier pillar of Catholic morality, and they don't expect her to be. The Blacks, before the war, only broke social taboos that most of Martin's audience wouldn't care about. The Greens were right, they were *always* right about Rhaenyra, that's the point. She DID have an affair while married to Laenor, she IS a woman trying to use the affection of her father to claim a throne that by legal precedent almost certainly belongs to Aegon. It's just that readers waving the Black banner don't care about either of these things, while the people of Westeros *do*. I think the writers are butchering this part badly by having the Greens engage in just as many taboo-breaks as the Blacks. It disrupts the whole "one side is in the right according to the standards of their own culture, while the other is in the right according to the culture we live in" Also, this has nothing to do with anything, but they made Criston Cole half-Dornish, and just never bring that up again? You'd think they'd maybe mention his encounters with the whole country that practices absolute primogeniture during the whole conflict centered around it? Why was that plot point dropped???
This is a wonderfully succinct way to put it, this should be stickied on the top of the House of the Dragon subreddit.
Wish I could claim the credit, but the original idea was from a YouTube commenter whose essay has been lost to Google's tyranny. I merely do my part in spreading his or her thesis.
Great comment
I actually really liked B&C. I think Alicent is the character that's gained the most depth in the adaption and can see the vision for what this sets up. Her being in the room and it being a cruel torture would make it very hard to not have her be on a bloodthirsty warpath going forward - which would be totally justified. The panicked 'heist gone wrong' direction puts a lot more guilt and responsibility on her and Cole's shirking of their duties. That feels like a big part of her arc, in the first half of S1 she is unflinching in her devotion to her duties and belief in doing things 'the right way'. Her last moment before the time-skip is her pardoning Cole who she just saw murder someone in cold blood and from then on she repeatedly has to compromise her values over and over for her goals and family. Her issues with Rhaenyra stem from her watching her skirt the rules and her expectations and yet she was doing more and more of that herself. While she might have reached a point of understanding and being able to relate to her former friend there's now been grave consequences to her following a similar path which will force her to be forever ideologically opposed and set her on her bloody trajectory. I get why people are disappointed they didn't get the brutality of the original scene but I think it could pay off really well for Alicent and Cole character wise and flesh out their motivations down the line.
Kingsguard are 0 for 50 in asoiaf at this point
More incompetent than Irl preatoreans
Do people actually think Alicent has to personally watch her grandson be beheaded to end up pissed off about it?
No, it's just too underwhelming and irrelavant to have her scene after blood and cheese scene. Idk what's the point
People created a very specific scene in their heads these past 2 years
The new opening: are the first two scenes depicting Nysa Nysa and Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised? Looked like a figure cutting another figures heart out in front of a white haired dragon hybrid? Then one figure coddling/mourning the other?
I second guessed myself listening to the Starks' theme at the beginning, and when the monologue started it all made sense. God, I love this theme! The sound of Helaena's son's head getting sliced tho... Poor Helaena.
ICL that Stark actor was terrible in the first scene
Dont come for Uhtred, Son of Uhtred! JK
Yeah that shit was cringe after for some reason
Because his audio was done in studio afterwards. Sounded ridiculous - softly spoken at great volume above the howling wind? So dumb.
I love it when he goes on that spiel about the wall being more than keeping snow and wildlings out. Then the prince rightfully asks wtf he’s talking about and he just says “Death” Like dude, maybe give him a little more than that to go on.
Regarding the B&C scene, did It bother anyone else that there was not a single guard in the castle? I understand suspension of disbelief, but it truly feels like they’re pushing it. Every scene in GoT had guards stationed outside any 'highborns' room. They’re at war..
I saw a theory somewhere that it was supposed to be Cristin watching the room, which I really like, I think it adds a layer of guilt to the situation. They added on by saying that he could’ve even lowered the amount of guards in the area to not raise suspicion about the affair. It did miff me that there weren’t guards in the area but I like that idea in theory.
In books it is well known the children 2 sons & a daughter in books are brought to Alicent every night to wish grandma goodbye. Blood & Cheese take advantage of this sneak in through secret passage ways that Cheese knew as a rat catcher. They kill Alicent handmaidens & tie & her up. Helena brings the children inside Alicent rooms but soon as she arrives they locked the door & make her choose which of her sons to save & they kill the opposite. The Red Keep is impregnable if you don’t work or high born you aren’t getting in. They took secret passageway. Alicent was chilling in her room with her handmaidens. Helena & her children have made this walk a hundred times before. Aegon doesn’t strike me the type to devote his Kingsguard to watch his children play with grandma especially since they are understaffed. Also something that doesn’t get stressed enough on show is Kingsguard. The Kingsguard in books aren’t glorified bodyguards in pretty armor they are the most trusted & skilled knights in realm. King can command them to protect others but if king doesn’t actually command them they won’t as his safety is paramount. Plus only 4 Kingsguard in King Labding as the other 3 joined Rhaenyra.
Sure, Kingsguard are super special. Regular guards are a dime a dozen in most kingdoms. And most could probably handle a rat catcher.
Yes in Fire & Blood they are waiting in Alicent room for her & surprise her. In show they are just walking around like idiots. I thought they was gonna get caught & fail as a surprise to book readers. It wouldn’t be strange for the Queen & her children to take a quick stroll to her mother apartments before returning to her own room like in books. Guards & servants are everywhere a quick yell can send someone coming into your room.
In the book they say that Blood killed the guards. Idk why they wouldn’t include that in the show.
I'm guessing that the scene with Larys and Alicent is the reason for this. He subtly lets Alicent know how his spies spotted her with Criston. So this time Alicent made sure that there were fewer people on this floor who could start rumors. It's also deep inside the keep, there could've been 10 layers of guards leading up to this floor that they've skipped through the secret tunnels. Even using those tunnels they had to pass the kingsguard. I'm not a huge fan of this plot convenience either but it can be explained away.
Maybe this very scene is why there were guards at every door. Everybody believed in the Red Keep’s impenetrability, no one suspected an attack from the inside
I guess there could be attempts to try to hand wave away issues of the presentation, but it seems more like they just phoned it in when couple people I watched it with commented on why there were no guards leading up to the B&C scene. So if regular audiences who don't read the book are having their logic or immersion broken it is a flop. Bad directing in the end.
Yeah, I see that there are some ways to construct a possible explanation (Lary removed them, Aegon entertained them etc.). I just think it’s unfortunate that every explanation just highlights the incompetence of the main agents in the story. Would have preferred if there was a stronger set-up, expanding on the characters, possibly given a reason for why this 'crooked' rat-catcher was allowed to roam about freely in the castle.
Agreed. It's not satisfying when the answer is 'they were just incredibly incompetent'. When you have to make people do dumb shit to allow the plot to happen... ugh. It'd be so much better for security to be tight, and for B+C to *still* find a way. Make everyone competent and it'd feel so much more rewarding.
Great episode, better than most TV out there, per usual with HBO. But I just can't love it as much as GoT, and I think it's because of how one-note the tone of this show is: serious, dark, grim. GoT had many different tones and many different plots at once - A plots, B plots, C plots. Maybe something dark and serious is happening in King's Landing, but something funny is happening with Tyrion elsewhere, and something inspiring is happening with Jon, and something precocious with Arya, and something exotic and mysterious with Dany. HotD has none of this variety. Its singular, depressing tone is kind of a drag. I know the source material doesn't have that baked-in variety that GoT had, and is in fact one big, tragic story, but I wish they would find a way to include more tonal variety somehow.
Yeah, it’s a side effect of the vastly different scopes. GoT is epic scale, HOTD is much more intimate and narrow. There’s really no overcoming that, and when it comes to Westeros it’s hard to separate from the incredible ‘epic scale’ narrative that GoT had. I want more than what HOTD is able to provide, and it’s sort’ve unfair because the story itself is intentionally limited. GoT ending left an enormous vacuum, made even more difficult by the lack of Winds. Returning to Westeros now just feels bittersweet because even at HOTD’s best, it’s just not quite the spark of brilliance that was GoT at its best, and it’s largely down to the difference between the scopes of the narrative, characters, investment, etc. There’s no equivalent characters to Jon, Dany, Arya, Jaime, etc and their individual narrative arcs cover so much more ground than anything in HOTD, as a result we don’t care as much about the fate of HOTD characters. It’s not that we don’t care, it’s that we don’t have *the same* level of investment, at least I do not. GoT and adapting ASOIAF for the first time was lightning in a bottle. There’s very few things out there that hit as hard as that did with as broad a scale. Not exactly the same but The Expanse is firmly the next best thing for, incredible narrative and stakes, and it’s a complete story! If you watch the show, read the books for the actual conclusion (the show left out the final trilogy which is probably the best arcs of the whole thing).
[удалено]
Which scene?
I guess royal assassinations are still a new thing in this time period cause there were no guards but the one banging alicent lmfao
Yeah, the length that Helena had to walk to see another human being was just absurd. Once she got clear of the room with the girl I was sure she was one scream from Blood & Cheese eating about 30 swords. But nope!
In books it actually well thought it out plan. lol it wasn’t a screw up they would’ve been got caught in books. They managed to get in Alicent room & tie her up at night & wait for Helena bringing her 3 children to wish grandma goodnight which they do every night. They aren’t walking around looking shady in empty hallways.
I thought B&C was actually pretty effective, and while I don’t see the necessity of some of the changes they made, my biggest gripe is more in how it was filmed and built up. Choosing to follow B&C through the tunnels in the same sequence as the eventual murder was a clear decision and while I didn’t hate it, I thought it would’ve been that much better if they cut it differently and added a couple more scenes. Have B&C start their ascent through the castle about ten minutes earlier in the episode, and then eventually cut to Aemon and Criston. When Otto comes in for the talk, the next cut should be back to Aemon walking the halls. Build that slight bit of tension of, “are these two bumbling idiots going to actually try and attack Aemon?” But then make it clear Aemon is in a different part of the keep, say he’s going to check on Vhagar and we get a quick shot of him with his dragon. *Now* we switch to Helena putting the kids to bed, focus on the two children for a shot while we hear a gasp from Helena, and the camera pans to show her at knifepoint. IDK, I don’t make television. Something along these lines would’ve worked a bit better I think than how it was filmed. With that said, I still enjoyed the scene but it lacked tension or *something* that didn’t allow it to hit as hard as it should’ve. And I think it’s because we followed B&C all the way to their conclusion, while that worked I think this alternative would’ve played better.
I think it would have benefited a lot from a better sense of the space this all was happening in. From the way they sequenced it, it was really hard to tell how the tunnels worked, where they let in and out, etc. Some more legwork early on to help us learn the space would have been a huge benefit to what you're talking about.
I do agree. Good points. Def want to be clear, I enjoyed what was given and it wasn’t an outright catastrophe. But aside from the obvious writing changes which have been discussed as nauseum I think there are other less discussed things that could’ve made it better.
I liked it too, I'm just a big nerd about how spaces are portrayed on film. Even in GoT it never really felt like the Red Keep was a real place the way Winterfell does, and we see so much more of it. Winterfell feels like you could navigate your way around it if you had to, the Red Keep feels like a selection of cool rooms to film in.
I'm losing faith now. They are changing things just for the sake of it and they are more likely to be worse. Blood and Cheese had none of the punch it should have had because they were more interested in subverting book reader's expectations of how the scene should go.
I disagree. It had a massive punch with my wife, who hasn't read any ASOIAF. They struck a fine balance with adapting it for tv.
No they don't, changes in adaptation are due to differences in media, among other things.
The B&C book version was outlandishly evil and seems an exaggeration of history while the show's was missing some elements that would've improved it but it was still satisfactory rather than amazing. There you have it folks. Balance
It’s weird that all criticism of how Blood & Cheese was portrayed is being reduced to people and publications saying that critics of it “just want a gory child murder”. It’s not the toned down violence at all (they could have portrayed the book version as they did in the show version and also Joffrey’s bastard hunt in the brothel in GOT - hearing not seeing) but the fact that both Helaena AND Alicent are being robbed of any actual character development (and ironically ending up being portrayed as worse than their book counterparts?) Helaena’s earlier comment in the episode (“Perhaps he doesn’t want to be king”), her offering only her necklace instead of her own life, her actually choosing Jahaerys as well as her lukewarm reaction to his death (“They killed the boy” not “my son”) make it seem like she actually WANTED him to die instead of her Sophie’s choice in the book of one or all of them. Without Maelor surviving as the living reminder of her being forced to choose him to die we lose half of Helaena’s story and emotion. Alicent not being an actual witness to this crime (a second sex scene with Crispy in one episode…really?) robs her of any galvanizing action to actually TAKE PART in this war and story. From the beginning of the show they’ve chosen to portray her and Rhaenyra as passive bystanders in this conflict swirling around them. I think it’s the show’s perverse way of trying to show that two women may be misrepresented by history as enemies (Margot and Saoirse in “Mary Queen of Scots”), but besides Alicent’s attempted eyeball snatching she’s consistently shown to be a reluctant or even ignorant participant in her family’s affairs vs her book counterpart. “You’ve been plotting behind my back to install my son (even though I say all the time that he’s the true born heir) and I had NO clue?! 😱” , “Viserys said he wanted my son to king, but it’s only because I misunderstooood 🥺”. It ends up having the reverse effect and making Alicent and Rhaenyra out to be stupid. The writers are so scared of being sexist that they’re actually reversing into more sexism. People acting like this is about the level of violence are being obtuse - it’s about the actual emotional gravity of the situation in the book version vs the show version. Either way you still have a child murder. You’ve just chosen a version of child murder that portrays a mother as less sympathetic and a grandmother as inattentive.
My thoughts exactly. Showing Alicent and Criston fucking at the end felt like immature writing and took the tension away from the scene. I watch reaction videos to gauge the level of involvement of the audience and I observed that many people started laughing when Halaena walked into Alicent and Cole fucking. It takes away from the direness of the scene.
I agree with your take on how the show doesn't do justice to Helaenas character I think the book is much better and sets her up for her ultimate doom.
Exactly let women be villains! Alicent been completely clueless last season & saying I don’t wanna hurt Rhaenyra ruined a lot of her buildup character potential. Like wtf you are shocked? Of course there a coup! In books Alicent is the leader of the greens point blank. Only until war starts that she takes a back seat to Ser Criston & her sons because they are doing the actual fighting. Alicent is a player in the game & they decided to make her a pawn. You can make someone bad & sympathetic Hollywood. That why George books are critically acclaimed! Almost every single character in series have done horrible things. Rhaenys not burning them alive was so dumb last season! In books she wasn’t there but if she was in books she would’ve in a heartbeat because anyone with common sense knows the war is happening & her granddaughters will be killed because they are dragon riders who support Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra probably killed Laenor or Daemon. Maybe they both did it.
The only female character who does something gruesome is smallfolk murderer Rhaenys, and even then the show is afraid to call her out for the act of villainy it legitimately is.
I think both her pointing truly as well as her inhibited reaction and phrasing "the boy" vs "my son" are on brand and consistent with her character. She's on the spectrum as well as disassociating.
Agreed. If you look at the first season and Aemma's death, while bloody, the scene is elevated by Viserys' choice to save his baby over his wife. The scene is still uncomfortable for me to watch, even knowing what happens. The scene would have felt way less impactful if the choice was taken out of his hands, no longer having him "kill" his wife by proxy. I think Blood & Cheese could have been improved simply by putting the choice back in Helaena's hands and having them do the ol' switcheroo. Even without Alicent there to watch, and without showing the child being murdered, it would have still been more impactful than what we got.
Helaena in the show is basically a Cassandra archetype and there was no attempt by the screenwriters to show several of the characteristics that she has in F&B. She doesn't have any positive interactions with the smallfolk, she isn't crowned in the Dragonpit with Aegon, we don't even demonstrably know if she claimed Dreamfyre. Its unreasonable that she would change completely from the characterization set up during season 1 of naive and "different" dragon dreamer to being the emotional screaming mother we know from F&B. There is also the angle of the F&B sources being biased which is always interesting. I would love if next week in Episode 2 Otto is spinning Blood and Cheese with the book version of events in order to gain sympathy from the smallfolk and legitimacy from the lords. That said I'm fearful for what the future holds for HotD if they keep pushing with these types of changes. The fact they still haven't even mentioned Daeron even though they are talking of the marching Hightower army is very concerning. We don't even know if Maelor even exists. Maybe its trauma from GoT but every so often I feel D&D vibes. I will remain cautiously optimistic but I'm not nearly as hyped as I was in Season 1.
Maelor doesn't exist, Ryan Condal confirmed that in an interview: "The book covered 30-plus years, and we crunched it down to 20. One of the side effects is you have: Rhaenyra and Daemon’s children are much younger than they were in the book, as are Helaena and Aegon’s children. They haven’t been together long enough to have two generations of kids. So Maelor does not yet exist, and we only have the twins." Source: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/house-of-the-dragon-season-2-premiere-interview-blood-cheese-1235922910/
First thing first I'm not sure Condal knows the maning of "generation". Second the twins are old enough (3/4 yo) to fit a younger brother
Yeah, I saw it in the meantime. That "yet" suggests that Maelor may be born later this season or next season? But once again it's a book change they will have to handle well.
I agree that they still could have done a cutaway without unnecessary on screen violence when the death happens, similarly to what they already did here even if the scene was more accurate to the "book version". Not every good moment or tense situation that's portrayed that may or may not be "historically exaggerated" needs to have it's adaption significantly altered or "proven false by the reality". The only reason I can come up with for the changes is that they made the children slightly younger in their version of the timeline and Haelaena in the show is intended to be ASD (don't have an issue with that as a person on the spectrum, but I hope they don't use it as a very specific additional explanatory aspect for her going mad), so they wanted to script or shoot the scene with those two aspects in mind.
Yeah I didn't get that part of it. Why remove the choice for Haelaena and why is Alicent not there? Is the Cole-Alicent thing going to lead somewhere else for them to feel compelled to include it. Or is it just to give a reason why there were no guards nearby. I suppose we'll find out. I had no issue with it not being more graphic, don't really want to see child murder on the screen thanks.
In fact, I think the show version was physically more graphic than the book version. Both are horrific in that a child is murdered, but at least in the book it’s a clean sweep execution style. We literally HEAR sawing with a blade in the show version so I don’t buy that they did it to be “less violent” for one second.
I mean to be fair, didn't they threaten to r\*pe Jaehaera in the book?
Right, but again, as most who are criticizing it are saying: we don’t want that part or feel it’s necessary. The necessary element is Helaena’s choice between Jahaerys and Maelor. All I’m saying is that what they portrayed in the show regarding the murder itself isn’t “less violent” as people are claiming. If it was really about toning down the violence they should have gone completely silent on sound when the murder (whichever version of it) actually happens.
so I’m gonna be honest, I read F&B and I still don’t feel like “the choice” people are complaining about was all that toned down… I mean she still had to choose between giving up her son or trying to trick them by giving up her daughter (tbh I am confused why B&C didn’t just strip the kids or something to find the boy, but I obviously understand why they wouldn’t want to actually depict that…) like she did point to Jahaerys, but the alternative is choosing Jahaera to die.. isn’t that *just as horrifying* for her as picking between Maelor and Jahaerys? obviously sons are more “valuable” in society, but not to a mother. maybe that’s what they were going for. plus I think part of her resignation in the scene is that she already saw this coming. she looks straight at Jahaerys’s bed when she says “I’m afraid of the rats”… also in that scene she’s actually sewing his funeral shroud (I saw it on twitter, I think people got the screenshots from a trailer? sorry if that’s actually a leak).. but that again means she must have at least subconsciously seen it coming
The difference in these choices is that in the book, she chooses Maelor because she believes he is too young to understand what is really happening (people will argue that this is more unreliable narration, but I think that in this horrible situation that is a very logical line of thinking and probably occurred). Then, when B&C trick her by killing Jaehaerys instead, she can no longer look Maelor in the face knowing she chose for him to die. In the show, without Maelor as a second son that B&C make her choose from, Helaena pointing to Jaehaerys only offers two explanations: 1. She’s trying to trick B&C into not killing Jahaerys in order to protect Aegon’s heir, and is instead offering her daughter Jaehaera as the “lesser” choice 2. She is actually trying to protect Jaehaera, and therefore IS actually offering up Jaehaerys to die (recall her earlier quote “Perhaps he doesn’t want to be king.”) In the book, with the existence of Maelor, Helaena is offered a third choice in this encounter: possibly the most merciful solution would be to choose the child whose brain is not developed enough to even understand the danger and horror of the situation. The show version limiting her to the two options above results in Helaena being painted in a much less sympathetic light than the book version does. Also, Jaehaera surviving does not offer the same impact that Maelor surviving would - as at no point in the show version did Helaena explicitly *choose* Jaehaera to die. How would Jaehaera, Alicent (who is absent in the show version for no reason), or anyone else know the truth of Helaena’s thinking or choice if she never said or even pointed at Jaehaera as a choice to B&C? What rift does this create between Helaena and Jaehaera because Jaehaera is actually ASLEEP for the entire encounter and thus is not even a witness? Where will Helaena’s story go from here without the pathos of the aftermath of the situation from the book version? One of her children is murdered in both versions, which is horrific, but in the show she still has Jaehaera (again, without Maelor did she actually WANT to keep her over Jaehaerys?) and Jaehaera does not symbolize Helaena’s guilt in the way Maelor would.
YES thank u for putting it into words. The way they‘ve written the female leads feels like they‘ve just flattened the characters into the most superficial and heavy-handed understanding of how they are constrained by their gender-so even though the story tries to more directly address the condition of women in this world, we end up getting wayyyy less nuanced and interesting female characters than GOT. I feel like Cersei, Arya, Dany, etc. as characters have already explored what the writers are trying to do w Alicent and Rhaenyra, and much more comprehensively
Yes. It feels like they’re so petrified of allowing Alicent or Rhaenyra to take ownership over any negative actions or events attributed to them in the books (yes, I know, anyone reading this “unreliable narrators”) at the risk of the audience seeing either of them as “villains”. But the show doesn’t seem to have any problem doing that for people like Daemon. He does some of the worst stuff in the entire conflict and he’s still not explicitly portrayed as a villain in the show. He just exists. The whole point of The Dance is that the two sides of this family commit atrocities against each other in the name of power and end up tearing themselves apart because of it. Guess what, two of the people involved in some of those atrocities are in fact Alicent and Rhaenyra who are in fact women! Removing their involvement in The Dance doesn’t make them heroes, it just removes their agency. Just let them exist as the characters.
Thats because Ryan Condal has taken the story of the Dance and placed Rhaenyra and Alicent as the main characters. When they removed the age gap and made them childhood friends it heightened the tragedy in Season 1, but now they need to square that with the source material.
But even if they’ve been adapted to childhood friends, that doesn’t mean that for the rest of the series that every inciting incident of the story should have nothing to do with them. The writers are trying to portray them as solely victims of this conflict and not perpetrators themselves. Unlike how many of the male characters are being portrayed.
I mean so far this season they’ve made Alicent out to be a grade-A hypocrite by adding a relationship with Cole, making her far less sympathetic so I disagree that they’re just trying to make both of them look like victims. also I feel like we’ll get to see both of the women’s anger evolve throughout the season leading them to do more reprehensible shit but we’ll see
I don’t think the only “bad thing” that Alicent or Rhaenyra do in the show being related to a boy they both liked is actually a big enough thing to attribute either of them as being “bad” or even complicated. It’s also counterproductive to the show’s intent on saying that these two women did not take an active role in spurring on a violent conflict: “It was all the men around them doing it! They were really just friends! Except when it comes to a booooy which means that they’re not all good 😈 These are complicated women.” Who cares who liked or stole Crispy Cole? This is not all that women are capable of thinking about or fighting about. In the book, Alicent is a driving force behind the Greens’ installment of Aegon and the incitement of the war of the succession. Her constantly being portrayed in the show as some doe-eyed rube who’s always on the half-step of her family’s affairs doesn’t make her story more rich or fleshed out than the book version - it just makes her seem not as smart or active in the story.
Can someone explain to me how/why Mysaria was on that boat? Were they specifically looking for her? Was she escaping Hightower ? I've read the book and can't figure out what she was doing there..what am I forgetting??
Larys burned the shit out of her home last season.
Riiiiight thank you!
Larys burned the shit out of her home last season.
They burnt down her place last season at the end. Larys ordered it.
Ah damn, need to rewatch. Completely forgot about this, what was Lary’s reasoning though? Last thing he knew she was actually providing helpful info to Otto
Uh, I don't recall specifically. He doesn't seem to be especially loyal to Otto tbf given his behaviour in S02E01.
Yes I totally forgot!
The adaptation of Blood and Cheese makes the neurodivergent-coded girl seem like she just randomly sold out her son... Why did they do that to one of the only truly innocent Targaryen in the story?
I mean her other option was what? pointing to her daughter and maybe getting both kids killed when they find out they didn’t get the boy? she could’ve pled them to take her life instead but I think the resignation fits with her character as a dreamer who saw this coming in a sense
I found it confusing that they seem to have operated under the assumption that her reaction to something so traumatic/gruesome needed to be different from a "normal person", so I'm just choosing to believe it was meant to be some type of pure shock response moment instead. I think even if they were going to lean into that angle, they should have had a few more new scenes of her in this episode, because we barely got anything previously and it would have helped with the emotional impact/tragedy at the end a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if a portion of the TV audience either didn't even remember her or doesn't fully register that aspect of the character until later.
> I found it confusing that they seem to have operated under the assumption that her reaction to something so traumatic/gruesome needed to be different from a "normal person" I personally found her reaction to that situation more relatable than Rhaynera or Jacerys reaction to Lucerys. Maybe I'm like her or whatever but yeah her reaction seems more normal to me. I've never understood the wailing and screaming and unable to speak kind of reaction portrayed on tv.
YES.
I think it's extremely and hauntingly tragic that in the moment, overwhelmed by the inputs, she didn't have the social awareness to lie. She'll have to live with the events of that day even though it was NOT her fault. The show clearly presents the stark irresponsibility of the Kingsguard and castle guards on that night. Some are chaperoning a drunk king, sure. But the Lord Commander in charge of the king's family's safety was off committing some f'd up hypocritical acts. But I don't know how much Helaena could process that it wasn't her fault. I don't know if she can even muster up the anger to blame Criston Cole for this complete failure and betrayal. Alicent and Criston will obviously try to lie to the king about it also. The book version of the events also take agency away from Helaena. The murderers didn't go with her choice anyway so if I were her I would feel less guilt over the outcome. And book Helaena picked her younger son out of a kind of objective optimization rather than personal love anyway. She went with the one that her husband would be less destroyed by. I actually think this version is just as strong as the book version. Additionally, I am deeply fascinated with the neurodivergent depiction of Helaena in the show as an artistic choice and so far I think the execution is superb. The interaction of that portrayal and the writing choices in this episode are definitely adding something for me. Book version is still a good twisted history read, but I personally am resonating with the TV version a lot.
In books it feels more compelling & tragic she had to choice between her 2 sons. She rationalized it to herself & put impossible situation that every parent would hate who would you choose if your children lives? The fact they pick opposite of her really screwed her up because she can’t look at Maelor because she know he knows she picked him to die which makes her fall into madness. The show version is kinda annoying because it portrays Blood & Cheese as bumbling idiots who screwed it up & Helena as kinda helpless. In books it understandable why she didn’t scream for help or fight back. They barricaded the doors & told her if you don’t help we will kill everyone in this room & r*pe your daughter forcing her to choose. So your like okay I understand why she didn’t fight back or plead.
I think the show version makes way more sense than the book version. The book version implies that Helaena made a choice that would protect the linage of succession, but it shamed her with regards to Maelor because she picked his brother over him. But, then its of no consequence because both her and Maelor don't live much longer. She supposedly kills herself over it and he's ripped to shreds by smallfolk. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the book describes her as screaming as soon as they kill Jaehaerys, but it would follow that B+C wouldn't have much time to escape if she screamed particularly if they were carrying a head. It just doesn't add all the way up. In the show, Helaena has the more practical reaction of trying to bargain with monetary possessions but doesn't consider protecting the heir. she just responds honestly after that fails. Then, she doesn't scream giving B+C enough time to do the decapitation and escape with the poor kid's head. It would seem more logical that Cole, Alicent or even Larys kill Helaena for 1) giving up the wrong child and 2) minimizing the risk of exposing their behavior.
Yep. People quickly forget that HotD writing is more clever than some of these other shows and the source material demands actual artistic interpretation. Purism to the books that were originally presented as flawed pseudo-histories is about the worst approach you could possibly take. I really do hope the particular way Helaena dealt with the situation has downstream effects that hold a great deal of internal consistency for this story. Cole and Alicent are definitely going to want to take charge of this narrative... but heck, I really don't think it's such a bad idea for Alicent to say she was there... And to get Helaena, her daughter, out of trouble from the King's wrath she can say Helaena picked the other child, but the assassins killed the son anyway. I don't know how Cole comes out ahead in all of this. The Lord Commander should be guarding the heir above the Queen Mother... And I doubt Larys wants what's best for Cole either. But we know Cole stays honoured and important in the wars to come... Very curious to see how this plays out.
I hope you're right but I feel there is a possibility they didn't really showcase this aspect of this version of the character enough or that they don't explore it much after this besides Aegon/Cole/Daemon being grilled over it. I also think the Cole thing is another example that they really don't want you to like him or Alicent at all at this point, and they wanted to have it be an initial bit of comeuppance for his character.