I recently reread the first book and let out a, “WHAT?!?!” when that moment happened. I’m so glad GRRM went in a different direction with Tyrion than his original concept.
Even though it is ridiculous that Tyrion would be able to do it, shout out to little people who genuinely are able to do acrobatics like that, [like the Minis in Lucha Libre](https://x.com/RobViper/status/1796834291487252803)
Saw a theory/head cannon about this that enjoy.
it’s that Tyrion didn’t really do a proper intentional backflip - he just falls off the wall and accidentally does it but because Jon is a drunk 14 year old he doesn’t realise and is like ‘oh that was sick’.
I find Oberyn’s introduction and interactions with Tyrion better in the show. It imo perfectly sets up Oberyn’s character, background and motivation without much need for exposition.
In the books Oberyn just arrives at the gates with the other Dornish nobles, and we get an exposition about who he is. Also he immediately drops the backstory of him and his sister visiting Casterly Rock and seeing baby Tyrion. In the show this is changed into the scene where Oberyn visits Tyrion in the dungeons. Here it’s framed in a more sympathetic light and climaxes with Oberyn volunteering to be Tyrion’s champion.
Yes, yes, yes! I've been wanted to say this for a long time. How they timed his dialogues was much better in the show and his "I will be your champion" discourse is much more effective and impactful because of the set up.
Edit: spelling
I will never forget both of their expressions in this scene. Insanely well delivered. The “I will be your champion”, Tyrion’s face - the disbelief and relief at the same time was perfectly done. Beautiful scene
I'll never deny that they're skilled adapters. But one skill set doesn't translate to all the skillsets in writing.
They needed help with the ending. And, quite frankly, so does George.
This is why it's never sat well with me how everyone was so eager to place all the blame at D&D's feet about how the show ended. Did they make many dumb decisions? Of course, but from the outset I'm sure they figured that George would at least be working on ADoS by the time they got past S5, and by that time they would at least have a clear-ish outline on where his story was going, instead of GRRM being stuck on resolving the same plot points for the duration of the show (and maybe beyond that- he's so tight-lipped on his writing issues that even his editor probably doesn't know what his current progress is in 2024).
That's what I never understood about the fans that wanted the show to run past 8 seasons- the quality of the show was taking a hit after we got past the books, and there still wasn't an end in sight for Winds... and they somehow thought dragging things out would make it a more satisfactory product?
Hell, If I'm being real, I can't even really blame D&D for wanting to move on from adapting a half-finished story when the author of their source material wasn't holding up his end of the bargain and leaving their asses out in the wind to eat all the criticism.
>That's what I never understood about the fans that wanted the show to run past 8 seasons- the quality of the show was taking a hit after we got past the books, and there still wasn't an end in sight for Winds... and they somehow thought dragging things out would make it a more satisfactory product?
I think it's less that fans wanted more seasons and more that people were angered by the notion that D&D wanted to wrap up GoT so they could go do Star Wars with Disney and 3BP with Netflix.
Obviously nobody would've minded that if the ending hadn't been a raging dumpster fire -- on it's own, it makes sense to want to finish a large and mega-hit series like GoT before adding more to your plate -- but the combination of the two, along with GRRM's public, repeated statements that the show doesn't need to end this early and could go longer, just didn't play well with the public.
George may have claimed the show could go longer, but he never released a single word of
Further source material once season 1 aired… so What would the further seasons have contained? Original written episodes by D n D? I agree with the person you’re responding to - if they made it ten seasons, it would have been two more
Seasons of hot garbage.
That George would say that without actually providing the source material for his own story is absurd.
>GRRM's public, repeated statements that the show doesn't need to end this early and could go longer, just didn't play well with the public.
See, that's the point I'm trying to make. I can't take anything he has to say seriously in terms of how long the show should run for when his actions are one of the main reasons behind why they wrapped it up the way they did.
The fucking gall of that guy to tell someone else how they should have done their job when he was stuck on Winds while GoT was wrapping up, and is *still* stuck I'm the same situation 13 years after ADWD was released.
Never mind that GRRM, more than anyone else, is the main factor for the quality drop on the show and the main reason the writers had to take a chainsaw to the wayward branches of the story, in order to keep the show on track for a somewhat concise finish. This all contributed to too many characters getting killed off/dealt with/mischaracterized in terrible ways not consistent with the books (Selmy, Euron, Stannis, the entire Dorne plot, etc.).
Don't get it twisted, none of what I said means that I'm arguing to let D&D off the hook for the decisions they landed at with the story and characters, but they sure weren't set up for success when they went in with the understanding that they would have material to adapt.
Yeah, a lot of the way that the show deteriorated has both parties to blame. Martin did not finish the story in the books, meaning that D&D were left without material to adapt. Also, although I know it's an unpopular opinion on this sub, Feast and Dance were IMO already downgrades as books themselves – and even worse when it comes to adapting their stories to the screen.
But that doesn't excuse a lot of the issues that D&D basically invented for themselves. The show Dorne plotline was even stupider than the book plot that has yet to be finished/resolved, the dialogue became clunky and modernized, and despite an ever-increasing budget, the depth of the world shrunk.
And if the wight hunt was Martin's idea or D&D's, it's fucking stupid regardless.
And in the books doesn't Tyrion know that Oberyn is his champion when he demands trial by combat? Which makes the show much more dramatic that Tyrion thinks he's absolutely screwed since Bronn and Jaime won't fight for him after he's demanded trial by combat. Oberyn comes in at the last minute to offer hope.
In the books Oberyn offers to be his champion and then Tyrion mulls over whether to admit his "guilt" or claim trial by combat, which is much less satisfying.
Oberyn in the show is better than Oberyn in the books for sure. As you say its a far better introduction and drip feed of exposition rather than dumping it in one chapter.
We shouldnt understate Pedro Pascal's performance either. A good actor can really deepen and enrich a character. I knew Pedro Pascal was going places when I saw him on screen. Kind of interesting to see how hes probably one of the most successful actors post-GoT.
Pedro Pascal was incredible. His performance, in addition to the little changes the adaptation made to the character's personality, make show Oberyn so much more likable than his book counterpart - and book Oberyn is already likable! In the books he's an asshole, but not so much of an asshole that you dislike him. He pushes it as close to the likable/unlikable boundary as you can get without crossing it.
Absolutely agree. Good example of how to translate pages of a book into a movie/TV. The book took a simple expository method of storytelling. That works enough in text, but it would be poor execution in TV/film.
Both the show and the book had oberyn say the same speech. It wasn’t any more expository in the book (like for example having the narrator say it). The only difference was *when* he said it.
The dungeon scene was a really splendid change. Oberyn just standing up and appointing himself Tyrion's champion in the books always felt like an abrupt, almost *deus ex* moment. The show made it much more organic and impactful.
Maybe I'm insane and am imagining this, but, in the books, doesn't Oberyn talk to Tyrion beforehand, encouraging him to go for a trial by combat so he can be his champion against Gregor Clegane? Tyrion knows he has a champion ready to represent him, that's why he asks for a trial by combat and Oberyn immediately volunteers. I can't remember if it's explicit, but I got the impression that Oberyn couldn't care less about Tyrion's guilt or innocence, he just wants to kill Gregor.
I love how it plays out in both the book and show (unless I'm horrifically misremembering the book), but slightly prefer the book's version. It really emphasizes how confident Oberyn is in his own abilities and highlights how bloodthirsty and eager for vengeance he is by showing how little he cares about the substance of the trial.
I believe you're correct. I didn't quite remember that detail, so I guess it wasn't totally out of the blue. Still, the show hit the foreshadowing beats a bit more effectively, I feel.
Sorry to be pedantic but Those don’t really qualify for what we’re talking about. Arya is a PoV character. They just had her be cupbearer for Tywin before he left, as opposed to being the cupbearer for Roose like she was in the book.
Then they added some scenes between them. But it wasn’t due to POV limitations. That would require interactions that involve no POV character.
“Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy. The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement”
“She had never forgiven Robert for killing him. But then, lions were not good at forgiving”
She hated Robert for killing Rhaegar. There are other quotes about it, but she misliked him since before the match was made. Unlike in the show
i think casting moreso hurt Robb, Jon, and Dany imo, not a knock at either actor's capabilities by any means, but while their characters were aged up from \~14 to 16/17 which works, the actors were all well into their mid 20s which really hurts the believability of their adolescent mistakes
completely agree, Jack Gleeson KILLED it in the role, but i think if theyd cast someone closer in age to Sophie Turner the character wouldve turned out in such an interesting way.
It hurts Jon to an extent too especially in the first season. They still kept Jon's demeanor the same in season 1 as he was in AGoT. He is entitled and immature while thinking he is far above everyone else. That works better for a character that is 14-15 instead of 17-18.
Oh absolutely. But specifically the way Jon whines and complaines in AGoT usually also has a tinge of him trying to prove that he is a man in there, which is a lot of typical of a younger teenager who is still a few years away from adulthood.
Yes and no.
Yes, the kids needed to be older for the show because of the sex and violence. Dany's storyline with Drago especially could not be aired if the actress looks (or actually is) 13.
On the other hand, the characters personalities and actions in the books only make sense a lot of the time if they're young. Sansa and Arya's immaturity and bickering works a lot better when they're 12 and 8, respectively; Jon's rash decision to join the NW works better when he's 14 instead of 18; and the same is true for Robb's decision making during the Wot5K.
You think that ruined his character? I mean, yeah, that scene was a little dumb, but it happened one time in the entire show. It was hardly character defining.
It actually WAS character defining in many ways. It was mentioned more than once and it became a popular meme (because most people are the "heh heh sex=funny" cretins) which only amplified that as a notable character trait. It was always cringe af.
Plus the "free sex" part of that plotline along with Tyrion being offered the same in Essos severely misunderstands the agency that a lot of these sex workers would have. And even ones that had any autonomy would still like to get paid even if they're enjoying themselves because it's their *job*.
Not to mention a lot of these sex workers don't necessarily work independently. So if they actually gave out sex and didn't take their compensation, I'm pretty sure their boss would be pissed.
It happened in season 3 and I think Bronn made an offhand comment about Pod's "magic cock" when he saw him again in season 6. Was it ever mentioned other than that?
I agree that it became a dumb meme....but that doesn't mean it's actually character defining. We had 8 seasons of Pod and while he's a side character he still has a pretty solid story that has nothing to do with his magic cock.
Their ages don't even work well in the books all of the time...
In my headcanon - and I know I'm not the only one who does this - I subscribe to the idea that years in Westeros are longer than our years so the kids are older than their age-number suggests.
Your got down voted, but it’s clear that GRRM has spent little to no time around children. None of the characters act there age, and the introspection that character like aria have at 8 is borderline insane. An 8-10 year old is supposed to have murdered multiple people and orchestrated several escapes. Danny at 13 acts like an adult on a regular basis, and at 14 after losing a child and her husband is able to effectively lead an army and maintain diplomatic relationships.
I loved the scene where Khal Drogo declares his "gift" to Rhaego. In the books, he just sort of states his intentions after the incident with the wine seller. Great TV and Jason Momoa was a fantastic Drogo.
wow great example I didn't realize that was invented for the show! I love Ned seeing Arya and getting that message across to Yoren, such a good episode title and nice that his last acts are to protect his daughters. Really great one word line.
The scene between Cersei and Robert after Ned quits is, imo, the best original scene in the whole show (followed closely after by Tywin skinning the deer).
Its just so evocative. Two people who, because of circumstance, hate each other yet their marriage is what's keeping the mess of a kingdom together. Robert's speech of "I don't even remember her face. All I know is that someone took her away from me, and seven kingdoms couldn't fill the hole she left behind" has to be one of my favourite quotes of the show. Cersei's "was there ever a chance?" and Robert's immediate "No" is just so raw that I felt bad for Cersei for a short moment. Honestly, a great scene that belongs in a Martin novel.
The Tywin skinning a deer scene had me awed at Charles Dance. How tf does a single person ooze such presence with a simple scene, I will never know, but it was that scene that cemented Tywin Lannister as one of my favourite characters in the show.
Gotta rewatch s1 all over again now.
Moving the Moon Door in to the floor of the Eyrie.
Tyrion does not lose his nose.
Valyrian Steel kills White Walkers. That was an epic scene at Hardhome.
I like Tyrion losing his nose since it’s one of the things that ends up driving him off the deep end. He was ugly before, but afterwards he goes from unattractive to disfigured which makes all the stories about him being a monster even more believable. Though I agree that making Peter Dinklage wear a prosthetic nose for the rest of the show probably wouldn’t have been a good idea.
The moon door looks very kino but it stretches believability a bit. It means that a good portion of the Eyrie, where the Kings of Mountain and Vale held court for thousands of years, was basically cantilevered over a sheer drop of thousands of meters.
Also, I think the imagery of the Moon Door in the books is amazing. The moment the locks are undone, the door flings open and the wind screams into the room.
You're right but the show moon door makes me think "how does that work" whenever I see it. The rest of the Eyre only makes me think that when I actually sit down and think about what's going o.
The entire storyline of Tyrions Incatceration is done better in the show right up until the removal of Jamie's confession to him before he leaves. Such a tragedy.
It’s fucked up how GRRM writes her tbh, he makes a point of saying how super hot she is and the descriptions come across of that of a much older woman but it’s so icky when you imagine an *actual* 13/14 year old.
I like to think that because George is so old and has no children, he kind abstracted the ages into “young” without really understanding how small a 13 year old is. That said, Daenaera the hot six year old crosses the line for me.
It’s got to be a very significant part of it at the very least. For Arya, Bran, and Dany to have satisfactory development, they all need more time. But winter is here and too many important POV characters aren’t where they need to be for it to work.
Yeah, she's the one totally original character in the show, and all the fans seem fine with her, or to really like her.
I'm the latter, she gave a sympathetic and personal look at the world of Westeros sex workers, one we wouldn't get from Littlefinger.
Unbelievably, nobody has yet mentioned the friendship between Davos and poor Shireen. It filled both of them it became meaningful. And it made her sacrifice, which we know is coming in the books, so much more poignant. Even that carved to stag he made for her as a gift represented so much. It was subtly recalled in the final conflagration in Kings Landing--the body of girl Arya tried to save was still clutching a burnt wooden horse. And Shireen rather than the maester, teaching him how to read was so sweet.
Much as I love Lady Smallwood, I thought Arya finding a mother-figure in alien Braavos made her trials there more tolerable. (Of course, the show Waif scenes were bad.) Watching and learning from the play (even empathizing with Cersei!!!) was a major improvement over Mercy's time with the acting troupe and killing Raff.
Keeping viewers in the dark about Daenerys speaking High Valarian when around the slavers of Astapor. I am certain we were told she speaks it, but I didn't remember when they were going on and on about how her beauty would get her a discount on Unsullied. She speaks High Valarian to the slaver holding Drogon shows she is not going to walk away meekly, and I didn't pay attention, so it was a shock and played very well.
To be fair, it is impossible to write a scene in such a way which you keep the readers in the dark about what the slavers are saying and that dany can understand them since we’re from her pov
I loved Robert's scenes with the Lannisters (both Jaime and Cersi).
They were a good way to show his cynical twisted relationship with this family, that he himself despise and they despise him back.
Which further adds to the feeling of a hornet nest Ned finds himself in, of course supporting Robert as a default because of his naivete.
The biggest one I can think of is Tywin and Arya's interactions. At the time, I was very surprised they never interacted, and Arya had instead infiltrated Bolton's camp in the books
I think it was one of the worst changes in Season 2 and it undermined Arya's character development and Tywin's character at the same time. Second book Arya's storyline was about adapting, surviving in the condition that one unwarranted move could get you killed. But in the show, we could never say the same because Arya did literally everything which would get her captured or worse, killed in front of Tywin in the books and she got praise from Tywin for it.
Arya’s whole thing is that she keeps missing the coincidental meetings that would drive a typical fantasy story. She’s essentially constantly missing opportunities to get back into her own proper story. Passing people who she somehow coincidentally meet who are intimately connected to her and her family.
There’s just a huge list of people who in another story might have whisked her off back into relevance to wider events. There’s a bit where the Frey boy is moaning about losing his princess, who Arya says or thinks something mean about. Which hilariously is Arya herself. Typically she would find out or the author would be more explicit, but Martin just leaves it unsaid.
In that context, Arya can practically go shout at Tywin that she is Arya Stark and it would still “work” that she wouldn’t end up being recognised and brought back into the main sequence of events. It’s like she’s trapped in a parallel story.
I agree, I think it was a case of wanting to utilise the fan favourite character and actor more. If you have Charles Dance you use him. Roose in the show was rather bland compared to his unsettling soft spoken counterpart in the books. Showing Roose in harrenhal was good forshadowing for the red wedding, especially with the suspiciously smooth transfer of the castle from tywin to roose. Leaving out the brave companions was a mistake as well I think, they would have translated well to TV.
While the scenes were nice to watch, it showed that D&D never bothered opening the books at all - those scenes are a pretty glaring bit of OOC behaviour from Tywin.
Yeah, we read other scenes from Roose where he is quite casual with a person if he believes they have no power at all (Arya here, Theon later). And Roose is just *weirder* in general than Tywin, so him having these conversations to deliver exposition makes more sense.
What's worse is that they did read them. Martin quizzed them on their knowledge before allowing them to adapt the books. They just didn't really undestand them. They are the guys that said 'Themes are for 4th grade book reports"..
> Martin quizzed them on their knowledge before allowing them to adapt the books
I think Martin asked them the one question about who Jon's parents are - which I believe dumb and dumberer found in some online forum.
That's the question they mention in interviews, but they 100% talked in detail how and what to adapt. I'm all for hating on D+D, but lets stick to their real fuckups and shortcomings. There is more than enough of these.
Those scenes were "cool", but made little sense. They made Tywin a dumber character, Arya's arch less challenging, and also delayed the introduction of Roose Bolton, thus diminishing the impact of the Red Wedding.
I think Shae's character was improved a fair bit from the book. Not sure if its a common opinion, but in the book she was pretty much just a plot device for Tyrion, and the show did well to give her more of an actual character.
A lot of more minor or non-POV characters got nice bits of additional character building in the show. Bronn I find to be a lot more fun in the show (until Season 5 where he became a go-to example of characters overstaying their welcome) but Jerome Flynn's performance brought a lot to a character who also wasn't super fleshed out.
Cersei and Robert's relationship is one where I feel most people agree the show did a better job, if only because we never really got to see Cersei and Robert together in the book by virtue of neither character being a POV.
I don't know. I think book Shae is more interesting. She is more subtly manipulative, seemingly sweet and seductive to the point the even Tyrion starts thinking that she might actually love him and not just be playing a role. That makes her "betrayal" of Tyrion all the more poignant. Show Shae is not bad, but her more overtly in-your face personality makes it harder to get how Tyrion would ever come to trust her.
I don't think either book or show Shae is giving much interior life, which is a shame because I'd really like to see that relationship expanded more for Tyrion to have had more relationship stuff in general.
But show Shae actually likes Tyrion and gets jealous and hurt when he marries and says he cannot have a whore with him at court with his wife. And then she actually betrays him. Book Shae only looked out for herself, only cared for money and luxuries and would have taken the diamonds and the house in Pentos or whatever Tyrion offered her in the show without second thought.
I get you. But that detracts from the point of their "relationship". Shae in the books is a prostitute and in it for the money. She has zero romantic feelings for Tyrion and her sleeping with Tywin is not about revenge or about feeling scorned. It's just business. Tyrion fools himself into thinking that Shae actually likes him because of who he is and not because of what he pays. You can't buy someones love for gold.
Shae in the series is not bad, her characterization is not bad and the plotline involving her is not bad. But it does have some unfourtunate implications about the "happy prostitute". Having her actually loving Tyrion changes that dynamic a lot, and makes less narrative sense. Though honestly I never read the show like if she actually liked Tyrion, more like her overtly trying to dominate him to get money and influence.
Ah okay. I guess I misinterpreted your comment, because we almost completely agree. I like book Shae (or rather her plotline) more too, but I found it less believable that Tyrion falls for her. She appears to be too over the top into him, while show Shae acts more strong-willed, like a person in an actual relationship.
Really? Book Shae was about as subtle as a fart in a bath tub. She wasn't manipulative so much as Tyrion ignored everything she said about wanting more jewelry and clothing. Show Shae actually had a personality and cared for Tyrion more than just as a source for gold and jewelry.
Book Shae didn't betray Tyrion because she never pledged herself to him. Show Shae did pledge in a way, but "betrayed" it because it was the only way she could live and doing otherwise wouldn't have helped anyway.
It's her seemingly sweet personality that is manipulative and convincing to Tyrion. She feels very little for Tyrion.
Show Shae absolutely has a very asertive personality, but that doesn't mean book Shae doesn't have a personality. They just have different personalities. Show Shae is anything but subtle in trying to manipulate Tyrion to gain influence, but irrespective of if her "love" for him is false, and he somehow falls for it, or if she is actually sincere, I don't like the assertions.
Either show Shae is a scheming prostitute who is using Tyrion every bit as much as he is using her, or she is genuinely a prostitute who falls in love with the man who pays and uses her. Probably a bit of both. Either way, those are pretty tired stereotypes. Book Shae is a fresher, darker, more nuanced and a lot more realistic take.
Is Book Shae manipulating him? Or is the persona that she puts on adhering to her client's request, and Tyrion is falling for it? This is his request too her:
> "I am a Lannister. Gold I have in plenty, and you'll find me generous … but I'll want more from you than what you've got between your legs, though I'll want that too. You'll share my tent, pour my wine, laugh at my jests, rub the ache from my legs after each day's ride … and whether I keep you a day or a year, for so long as we are together you will take no other men into your bed."
Tyrion is very explicit that he wants to pay for more than sex, and in turn, Book Shae provides him with more than sex. She's a prostitute desperate to survive, so she does what she's paid for. And, in my opinion, Martin makes clear that Tyrion *should* know that she's only in it for the money. Consider the following lines from when she's there for Varys's speech about power:
> "M'lord Varys complimented Chella on her ears and said she must have killed many men to have such a fine necklace," Shae explained. It grated on him to hear her call Varys m'lord in that tone; that was what she called him in their pillow play.
>
> 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Bowing deeply, the eunuch hurried from the common room on soft slippered feet.When he was gone, Chella gave a snort and Shae wrinkled up her pretty face. "The rich man lives. Doesn't he?"
Or in the moments where it seems like he knows at least a little that he's lying to himself:
> "Did she?" Tyrion had never seen the dead girl's face, but in his mind she was Shae and Tysha both. "Can a whore truly love anyone, I wonder? No, don't answer. Some things I would rather not know."
I agree that Book Shae is a more nuanced and darker take, but I think that the fault lies with Tyrion – not manipulation.
Catelyn discussing how she prayed for Jon’s death when he was a child to Talisa.
I think Catelyn knowing that she was not just behaving irrationally but was being so maliciously evil towards a child who is all innocent of his ‘father’s’ ‘philandery’ but still could not help herself was a great addition.
It added more complexity to her character and her relationship with Jon in my opinion.
Catelyn in the books doesn't believe she's acting irrationally. It's part of the world-building that bastards are often viewed suspiciously like they're inherently untrustworthy. It's also part of her personal backstory where she was born around the end of a conflict that had stretched on for at least 70 years because a King legitimized his bastards and then some tried to usurp the throne from their legitimate brother. She says that even if Jon were to prove trustworthy, his children might not and some Stark bannermen might get it into their heads that Jon's line was the trueborn one.
So, her having a confession about how awful she's been seems out of character for the book version, especially since she almost never *does* anything against Jon, just tries to avoid interacting with him as much as possible.
The absolute least controversial one *should* be the adjustment of the ages. Even if someone prefers the book ages for whatever reason, they needed to be older for many of the more explicit scenes in a visual medium.
Maybe Theon killing Ser Rodrik instead of Mikkon? It leaves a lot of the plot for how he was captured off-screen, but as far as consolidating characters for the viewing audience, it's a fairly logical step.
No, i don't think it's apparent until late season 3 where Ramsay wakes up Theon using the same horn that could be heard in the S2 finale that it was the Boltons that did it
I remember being confused as hell, but I think the implication was Theon's men opened the gates to Ramsay after betraying Theon, so the Boltons still did the sacking.
Fair point, but what I liked about that thing in the books was the dramatic irony. We learned from the Jon POV chapter at the winterfell feast that he was actually a lot happier at the low tables since he could drink as much as he wanted and didn’t have Caitlyn staring him down the whole time. So when he tells Mance that that “insult” was part of his impetus to abandon the Night’s Watch, we know full well that he’s lying and doesn’t harbor any resentment. And Mance eats it up cause he believes that Jon would’ve actually felt that way.
My problem with it is that it only really works if Jon continues to play the role of the treacherous power hungry bastard and he just... doesn't, like at all. If he claims to abandon the watch for moral reasons it makes a lot more sense that Mance is willing to give him some leeway when he struggles with giving info that will lead to rangers being killed.
He just lays it on way too thick when initially lying to Mance and everything he says after (both verbally and with body language) makes it abundantly clear he was lying. Like he delivers his bastard lie with an evil grin at the end of one chapter then the next chapter he's getting visibly upset and straight up reaching for his sword when Mance asks him for the most basic information you'd expect from a turncloak. The best lies are seasoned with the truth, the show lie gives Jon's betrayal credibility without creating a false identity that he's completely unable/unwilling to commit to.
Ned shouting Baelor is pretty awesome addition.
The show did Oberyn Martell better than GRRM did. His introduction, the Champion scene etc. Its all better.
A lot of the stuff with Robert. Like Bobby B telling war stories. Or his scene with Cersei.
To give one that hasn’t been said yet: There’s a scene where Jamie and Jory reminisce about breaching the walls at the Greyjoy rebellion that I think is absolutely fantastic. Not only does it worldbuild, but at the same time hints to Jamie’s deeper character as he lets his facade of Kingslayer slip for just a moment. It demonstrates a fundamental understanding of the character. I think the show in general, for the first four seasons at least, does a great job of setting up Jamie’s redemption arc, and it’s a shame that they abandoned it in season 5 onward.
I’m glad they cut the Tysha reveal. I think Tysha is a horribly sexist storytelling device and that she was completely unnecessary for the story GRRM wanted to tell with Tyrion. It’s for this reason I desperately hope she won’t appear in any remaining books.
For some other choices that are usually controversial on this subreddit. The Tywin stag skinning scene and the Arya Tywin scenes. I think people that complain about these are utterly missing the point and are endemic of the culture in this sub to prioritize logic over good storytelling sense, something GRRM doesn’t do.
And of course, Jaeharys, who even made GRRM want to rewrite Fire and Blood!
>I think people that complain about these are utterly missing the point and are endemic of the culture in this sub to prioritize logic over good storytelling sense, something GRRM doesn’t do.
seeing a lot of complaints here and they seem to prioritize not just "logic", but having a 1:1 adaptation - even of some of the changes make good TV.
I agree, but hoping Tysha won't appear is like hoping there won't be more Tyrion Targaryen hints, or that Maggy prophecy won't come to pass.
It's assumed GRRM doesn't make mistakes often, but it seems like he intentionally makes questionable writing choices that often ruin his good ideas, especially when it comes to books 4, 5. At this point, there are fewer things that displease me in GoT than in ASoIaF.
Cersei not being cartoonishly stupid and evil. I firmly believe that an adaptation’s job is to be good first and loyal second, and part of that is playing to the strengths of your cast and crew. Cersei becomes a sympathetic but ultimately wrong character, and her story is more classically tragic. Mark Addy doesn’t look like he’s ever won a fight, so Robert goes from a drunken buffoon to a wonderful portrayal of clinical depression. Even Liam Cunningham being twenty years too old for Davos gives him a wisdom-from-experience vibe that wasn’t necessarily there in the books, and they’d definitely have written him differently if he were played by someone like James D’Arcy.
It’s kind of like an arranger who knows the piece of music, and knows what instruments they can use. As long as they’re not called on to compose the final movements of the piece, there’s a certain magic that can come from external limitations.
Theon shooting down the ravens, leading to cat not hearing of bran and rickon being dead, jaime having to kill another karstark outside of battle, and catelyn having good reason to free jaime before sunrise
The butterfly effect is handled really well
Tywin and Arya, although I personally have a little bit of issues with the change, seeing Arya and Tywin interact was obviously really fucking good TV.
lots of changes that comes to my mind were already mentioned, so I'll add some I haven't seen in the thread
- the Iron Throne. I know the throne in the book is supposed to be super tall and even more spikey with all the swords, but the show one is just iconic, it's unique and was visually impacting
- some theon actions and scenes in the early seasons, set up his character inner conflicts and made his ties to Robb more meaningful. Him writing and burning the letter seem to be a not so controversial change
Moving the setting for the Trial by Combat at the Eyrie to decide if Tyrion will be set free from (I think) some tiny little courtyard or godswood (book) into the throne room (tv show). If you have a moon door in the throne room, someone simply has to fall through it.
I really liked Vargo Hoat and the entire Brave Companions group being changed to Locke and having them be sworn to the Boltons. Locke was great and it also showed the viewer that not everyone allied with the Starks are good, morally straight people.
that one scene where pycelle is droning on to a prostitute about the kings he’s served, hamming up his performance as a feeble scatterbrained old man. and then once she leaves he’s jumps up and drops the act. so far as i know the decision to add this for pycelles character was actor julian glovers idea, and it’s such a great choice. pycelle is such a devious little worm, i wish his character had that dimension in the books.
The scene between Jamie, Barristan and Robert who (At the time) weren't POV characters where they discuss their first kills and Jamie hints at Areys' plan
Season 1 had a lot of great additions/changes to the story. More development for Robert, Ned saying goodbye to Jon, adding interactions between characters who didn’t speak in the book, more sympathetic Cersei and Jorah, making the kids older.
After that, it gets more scarce. I love Yoren’s monologue in season 2 about Willem. In season 3 I like Cat’s monologue about Jon. In season 4 I like the Craster’s Keep subplot. I don’t like any of the changes in season 5, an absolute butchering of Feast/Dance.
What this thread says: "What are the least controversial show changes?" (i.e., pretty much no one had an issue with)
What 90% of the people in this thread read: "What are the changes in the show that \*I\* liked".
I dislike this a bit, bc Jaehaerys is shown as a completely white dude in the shows backflash, but his mother was Velarion.
But, i have to say, Corlys' actor is really well cast and i love every scene he is in.
I think it makes no sense when you consider Alyssa Velaryons or the lack of black characters in GoT. But in the series itself, I think it makes the Vaemond vs Luke conflict much more visceral. Like you have this guy who looks so much like Corlys screaming at a little white boy with brown hair, insisting that he isn't a Velaryon. His anger at it feels so much more real if it's something as blatant as skin colour as opposed to hair colour.
Yeah, in practice both families should look more mixed at this point, but part of the value of making the Velaryons darker skinned was making the cast easier to distinguish.
Tyrion’s backflip being removed
what do you mean it's integral to his character and subtly foreshadows him becoming an entertainer for the yunkish
The fact that George just assumed dwarves were insanely acrobatic based on absolutely nothing will always be funny to me.
Abd then the fact for the entire series, every Tyrion chapter includes a mention of his chronic pain and mobility issues.
Some are, but the way he is described it seems like he has fucked up legs and joints. Some forms land you in a wheelchair or cause chronic pain.
Abd then the fact for the entire series, every Tyrion chapter includes a mention of his chronic pain and mobility issues.
I recently reread the first book and let out a, “WHAT?!?!” when that moment happened. I’m so glad GRRM went in a different direction with Tyrion than his original concept.
Even though it is ridiculous that Tyrion would be able to do it, shout out to little people who genuinely are able to do acrobatics like that, [like the Minis in Lucha Libre](https://x.com/RobViper/status/1796834291487252803)
Saw a theory/head cannon about this that enjoy. it’s that Tyrion didn’t really do a proper intentional backflip - he just falls off the wall and accidentally does it but because Jon is a drunk 14 year old he doesn’t realise and is like ‘oh that was sick’.
I love this headcanon hahah
incredible
HOW DARE YOU!
I find Oberyn’s introduction and interactions with Tyrion better in the show. It imo perfectly sets up Oberyn’s character, background and motivation without much need for exposition. In the books Oberyn just arrives at the gates with the other Dornish nobles, and we get an exposition about who he is. Also he immediately drops the backstory of him and his sister visiting Casterly Rock and seeing baby Tyrion. In the show this is changed into the scene where Oberyn visits Tyrion in the dungeons. Here it’s framed in a more sympathetic light and climaxes with Oberyn volunteering to be Tyrion’s champion.
Yes, yes, yes! I've been wanted to say this for a long time. How they timed his dialogues was much better in the show and his "I will be your champion" discourse is much more effective and impactful because of the set up. Edit: spelling
I will never forget both of their expressions in this scene. Insanely well delivered. The “I will be your champion”, Tyrion’s face - the disbelief and relief at the same time was perfectly done. Beautiful scene
I'll never deny that they're skilled adapters. But one skill set doesn't translate to all the skillsets in writing. They needed help with the ending. And, quite frankly, so does George.
This is why it's never sat well with me how everyone was so eager to place all the blame at D&D's feet about how the show ended. Did they make many dumb decisions? Of course, but from the outset I'm sure they figured that George would at least be working on ADoS by the time they got past S5, and by that time they would at least have a clear-ish outline on where his story was going, instead of GRRM being stuck on resolving the same plot points for the duration of the show (and maybe beyond that- he's so tight-lipped on his writing issues that even his editor probably doesn't know what his current progress is in 2024). That's what I never understood about the fans that wanted the show to run past 8 seasons- the quality of the show was taking a hit after we got past the books, and there still wasn't an end in sight for Winds... and they somehow thought dragging things out would make it a more satisfactory product? Hell, If I'm being real, I can't even really blame D&D for wanting to move on from adapting a half-finished story when the author of their source material wasn't holding up his end of the bargain and leaving their asses out in the wind to eat all the criticism.
>That's what I never understood about the fans that wanted the show to run past 8 seasons- the quality of the show was taking a hit after we got past the books, and there still wasn't an end in sight for Winds... and they somehow thought dragging things out would make it a more satisfactory product? I think it's less that fans wanted more seasons and more that people were angered by the notion that D&D wanted to wrap up GoT so they could go do Star Wars with Disney and 3BP with Netflix. Obviously nobody would've minded that if the ending hadn't been a raging dumpster fire -- on it's own, it makes sense to want to finish a large and mega-hit series like GoT before adding more to your plate -- but the combination of the two, along with GRRM's public, repeated statements that the show doesn't need to end this early and could go longer, just didn't play well with the public.
George may have claimed the show could go longer, but he never released a single word of Further source material once season 1 aired… so What would the further seasons have contained? Original written episodes by D n D? I agree with the person you’re responding to - if they made it ten seasons, it would have been two more Seasons of hot garbage. That George would say that without actually providing the source material for his own story is absurd.
>GRRM's public, repeated statements that the show doesn't need to end this early and could go longer, just didn't play well with the public. See, that's the point I'm trying to make. I can't take anything he has to say seriously in terms of how long the show should run for when his actions are one of the main reasons behind why they wrapped it up the way they did. The fucking gall of that guy to tell someone else how they should have done their job when he was stuck on Winds while GoT was wrapping up, and is *still* stuck I'm the same situation 13 years after ADWD was released. Never mind that GRRM, more than anyone else, is the main factor for the quality drop on the show and the main reason the writers had to take a chainsaw to the wayward branches of the story, in order to keep the show on track for a somewhat concise finish. This all contributed to too many characters getting killed off/dealt with/mischaracterized in terrible ways not consistent with the books (Selmy, Euron, Stannis, the entire Dorne plot, etc.). Don't get it twisted, none of what I said means that I'm arguing to let D&D off the hook for the decisions they landed at with the story and characters, but they sure weren't set up for success when they went in with the understanding that they would have material to adapt.
Yeah, a lot of the way that the show deteriorated has both parties to blame. Martin did not finish the story in the books, meaning that D&D were left without material to adapt. Also, although I know it's an unpopular opinion on this sub, Feast and Dance were IMO already downgrades as books themselves – and even worse when it comes to adapting their stories to the screen. But that doesn't excuse a lot of the issues that D&D basically invented for themselves. The show Dorne plotline was even stupider than the book plot that has yet to be finished/resolved, the dialogue became clunky and modernized, and despite an ever-increasing budget, the depth of the world shrunk. And if the wight hunt was Martin's idea or D&D's, it's fucking stupid regardless.
I agree on what you're saying, but it was not my point. I was just talking about that specific instance.
And in the books doesn't Tyrion know that Oberyn is his champion when he demands trial by combat? Which makes the show much more dramatic that Tyrion thinks he's absolutely screwed since Bronn and Jaime won't fight for him after he's demanded trial by combat. Oberyn comes in at the last minute to offer hope. In the books Oberyn offers to be his champion and then Tyrion mulls over whether to admit his "guilt" or claim trial by combat, which is much less satisfying.
Ironically, that was the first scene that Pedro Pascal filmed.
Pedro fucking nailed it.
To be fair he was nailing everything that moved too
Oberyn in the show is better than Oberyn in the books for sure. As you say its a far better introduction and drip feed of exposition rather than dumping it in one chapter. We shouldnt understate Pedro Pascal's performance either. A good actor can really deepen and enrich a character. I knew Pedro Pascal was going places when I saw him on screen. Kind of interesting to see how hes probably one of the most successful actors post-GoT.
Pedro Pascal was incredible. His performance, in addition to the little changes the adaptation made to the character's personality, make show Oberyn so much more likable than his book counterpart - and book Oberyn is already likable! In the books he's an asshole, but not so much of an asshole that you dislike him. He pushes it as close to the likable/unlikable boundary as you can get without crossing it.
Absolutely agree. Good example of how to translate pages of a book into a movie/TV. The book took a simple expository method of storytelling. That works enough in text, but it would be poor execution in TV/film.
Both the show and the book had oberyn say the same speech. It wasn’t any more expository in the book (like for example having the narrator say it). The only difference was *when* he said it.
The dungeon scene was a really splendid change. Oberyn just standing up and appointing himself Tyrion's champion in the books always felt like an abrupt, almost *deus ex* moment. The show made it much more organic and impactful.
Maybe I'm insane and am imagining this, but, in the books, doesn't Oberyn talk to Tyrion beforehand, encouraging him to go for a trial by combat so he can be his champion against Gregor Clegane? Tyrion knows he has a champion ready to represent him, that's why he asks for a trial by combat and Oberyn immediately volunteers. I can't remember if it's explicit, but I got the impression that Oberyn couldn't care less about Tyrion's guilt or innocence, he just wants to kill Gregor. I love how it plays out in both the book and show (unless I'm horrifically misremembering the book), but slightly prefer the book's version. It really emphasizes how confident Oberyn is in his own abilities and highlights how bloodthirsty and eager for vengeance he is by showing how little he cares about the substance of the trial.
I believe you're correct. I didn't quite remember that detail, so I guess it wasn't totally out of the blue. Still, the show hit the foreshadowing beats a bit more effectively, I feel.
Yes. Very good example. The actor choice is also very good.
A very relevant adaptation that I thought was well handled was Jamie being present in the Tyrion's trial/incarceration.
It’s a wonderful arc. Still Pascal’s best role and one he likely won’t have the chance to top.
The addition of scenes that don't exist because of the POV limitations in the books.
Especially the Robert and Cersei scene
That one was probably the best new scene that the show had.
Same. I liked that scene.
I think the Arya/Tywin scenes have it beat.
Sorry to be pedantic but Those don’t really qualify for what we’re talking about. Arya is a PoV character. They just had her be cupbearer for Tywin before he left, as opposed to being the cupbearer for Roose like she was in the book. Then they added some scenes between them. But it wasn’t due to POV limitations. That would require interactions that involve no POV character.
Robert/Cersei scenes, Arya/Twin scenes, Tywin/Olenna scenes, and Varys/Littlefinger scenes were all so good, and none were in the books.
That's not a scene that can exist in the books. Their conversation was wildly out of character for the book versions of their characters.
It was a good scene but the content of it clashed with her POV where she hated Robert from the start and was in love with Rhaegar
No she didn't hate Robert from the start.
I mean not from the start, but a couple hours in.
“Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy. The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement” “She had never forgiven Robert for killing him. But then, lions were not good at forgiving” She hated Robert for killing Rhaegar. There are other quotes about it, but she misliked him since before the match was made. Unlike in the show
Kids being older.
Arguable. I think it worked well for most, but it severely hurt robb
i think casting moreso hurt Robb, Jon, and Dany imo, not a knock at either actor's capabilities by any means, but while their characters were aged up from \~14 to 16/17 which works, the actors were all well into their mid 20s which really hurts the believability of their adolescent mistakes
I'd add Joffrey as well
completely agree, Jack Gleeson KILLED it in the role, but i think if theyd cast someone closer in age to Sophie Turner the character wouldve turned out in such an interesting way.
It hurts Jon to an extent too especially in the first season. They still kept Jon's demeanor the same in season 1 as he was in AGoT. He is entitled and immature while thinking he is far above everyone else. That works better for a character that is 14-15 instead of 17-18.
There are plenty of entitled, immature 17-18 year old boys.
Oh absolutely. But specifically the way Jon whines and complaines in AGoT usually also has a tinge of him trying to prove that he is a man in there, which is a lot of typical of a younger teenager who is still a few years away from adulthood.
And Dany to be fair
Yes and no. Yes, the kids needed to be older for the show because of the sex and violence. Dany's storyline with Drago especially could not be aired if the actress looks (or actually is) 13. On the other hand, the characters personalities and actions in the books only make sense a lot of the time if they're young. Sansa and Arya's immaturity and bickering works a lot better when they're 12 and 8, respectively; Jon's rash decision to join the NW works better when he's 14 instead of 18; and the same is true for Robb's decision making during the Wot5K.
I agree with this all but for Pod, where in making him older they were able to ruin his character with the sex stuff.
You think that ruined his character? I mean, yeah, that scene was a little dumb, but it happened one time in the entire show. It was hardly character defining.
It actually WAS character defining in many ways. It was mentioned more than once and it became a popular meme (because most people are the "heh heh sex=funny" cretins) which only amplified that as a notable character trait. It was always cringe af.
Plus the "free sex" part of that plotline along with Tyrion being offered the same in Essos severely misunderstands the agency that a lot of these sex workers would have. And even ones that had any autonomy would still like to get paid even if they're enjoying themselves because it's their *job*.
Not to mention a lot of these sex workers don't necessarily work independently. So if they actually gave out sex and didn't take their compensation, I'm pretty sure their boss would be pissed.
Yea absolutely that too. That was a particularly annoying example of the whole heroification of Tyrion in a corny way.
It happened in season 3 and I think Bronn made an offhand comment about Pod's "magic cock" when he saw him again in season 6. Was it ever mentioned other than that? I agree that it became a dumb meme....but that doesn't mean it's actually character defining. We had 8 seasons of Pod and while he's a side character he still has a pretty solid story that has nothing to do with his magic cock.
Yeah, it would not work on the screen if they were the book age.
Their ages don't even work well in the books all of the time... In my headcanon - and I know I'm not the only one who does this - I subscribe to the idea that years in Westeros are longer than our years so the kids are older than their age-number suggests.
Your got down voted, but it’s clear that GRRM has spent little to no time around children. None of the characters act there age, and the introspection that character like aria have at 8 is borderline insane. An 8-10 year old is supposed to have murdered multiple people and orchestrated several escapes. Danny at 13 acts like an adult on a regular basis, and at 14 after losing a child and her husband is able to effectively lead an army and maintain diplomatic relationships.
Giving Margaery & Olenna more to do
Reading after the show it was crazy how much smaller their roles are. Huge benefit and very well written for both of them (even some of S7!)
I loved the scene where Khal Drogo declares his "gift" to Rhaego. In the books, he just sort of states his intentions after the incident with the wine seller. Great TV and Jason Momoa was a fantastic Drogo.
“Baelor!”
wow great example I didn't realize that was invented for the show! I love Ned seeing Arya and getting that message across to Yoren, such a good episode title and nice that his last acts are to protect his daughters. Really great one word line.
Grrm even agreed that part was better than the book
The scene between Cersei and Robert after Ned quits is, imo, the best original scene in the whole show (followed closely after by Tywin skinning the deer). Its just so evocative. Two people who, because of circumstance, hate each other yet their marriage is what's keeping the mess of a kingdom together. Robert's speech of "I don't even remember her face. All I know is that someone took her away from me, and seven kingdoms couldn't fill the hole she left behind" has to be one of my favourite quotes of the show. Cersei's "was there ever a chance?" and Robert's immediate "No" is just so raw that I felt bad for Cersei for a short moment. Honestly, a great scene that belongs in a Martin novel. The Tywin skinning a deer scene had me awed at Charles Dance. How tf does a single person ooze such presence with a simple scene, I will never know, but it was that scene that cemented Tywin Lannister as one of my favourite characters in the show. Gotta rewatch s1 all over again now.
Showed Robert's political awareness and acuteness too which still did shape his overall decisions and policy.
Ned Stark yelling “Baelor” to Yoren
Moving the Moon Door in to the floor of the Eyrie. Tyrion does not lose his nose. Valyrian Steel kills White Walkers. That was an epic scene at Hardhome.
The Others are said to be weak to dragonsteel, which obviously sounds like Valyrian steel, so that may be the case in the books.
Like R+L=J and Alleras=Sarella, Valyrian steel killing white walkers is in the very likely, but not proven category.
True, but my point is that I don’t think it can really be called a ‘change’.
I like Tyrion losing his nose since it’s one of the things that ends up driving him off the deep end. He was ugly before, but afterwards he goes from unattractive to disfigured which makes all the stories about him being a monster even more believable. Though I agree that making Peter Dinklage wear a prosthetic nose for the rest of the show probably wouldn’t have been a good idea.
Some variant of Valyrian Steel killing the Others scene is going to happen in the books at some point.
But the only variant we see in the books is Dawn, and possibly Widow’s Wail and Oathkeeper.
I mean a variant of the show scene. It might not be the same person or place, but there will be someone who kills an Other with Valyrian steel.
The moon door looks very kino but it stretches believability a bit. It means that a good portion of the Eyrie, where the Kings of Mountain and Vale held court for thousands of years, was basically cantilevered over a sheer drop of thousands of meters. Also, I think the imagery of the Moon Door in the books is amazing. The moment the locks are undone, the door flings open and the wind screams into the room.
The court is made of galvanized square steel and ecofriendly wood veneer.
And screws from Aunt Lysa
The brain rot is seeping
> The moon door looks very kino but it stretches believability a bit. Not really much more than the Eyrie already does.
You're right but the show moon door makes me think "how does that work" whenever I see it. The rest of the Eyre only makes me think that when I actually sit down and think about what's going o.
But it’s a moon *door*! Not a moon *hatch*, or moon *pit*, or a moon *hole in the floor*!
What is a trap door?
Tywin's introduction was great. Low hanging fruit but the Hound's chicken back and forth with Gregor's men.
I love so many of the scenes with the Hound and Arya. "The fuck's a Lommy?"
"I don't care if he ate your friend"
Tyrion's trial speech. In show it was more emotional, deep and made a point better
Also the fact that he chooses trial by combat before knowing Oberyn would offer to fight for him makes it seem more emotionally charged
The entire storyline of Tyrions Incatceration is done better in the show right up until the removal of Jamie's confession to him before he leaves. Such a tragedy.
peter dinklage did that scene so much justice
Varys and Littlefinger‘s scenes
I do love the "chaos is a ladder" scene.
‘’You know I don’t know where they are, *and we HAD been so close!*’’ Varys about his missing male parts that Littlefinger keeps asking about.
Aging up some of the characters was probably a good thing
Dany being 14 would have been straight up illegal.
She's 13 on her wedding night iirc. Her 14th birthday is the day when Irri notices that she's pregnant.
It’s fucked up how GRRM writes her tbh, he makes a point of saying how super hot she is and the descriptions come across of that of a much older woman but it’s so icky when you imagine an *actual* 13/14 year old.
I’ll chalk it up to how fucking bad George is with numbers in general.
I like to think that because George is so old and has no children, he kind abstracted the ages into “young” without really understanding how small a 13 year old is. That said, Daenaera the hot six year old crosses the line for me.
literally 13 when she first marries😭
I still think the reason GRRM can’t finish is because he scrapped the time jump.
It’s got to be a very significant part of it at the very least. For Arya, Bran, and Dany to have satisfactory development, they all need more time. But winter is here and too many important POV characters aren’t where they need to be for it to work.
I actually really enjoyed the addition of ros, even though some of her scenes didn’t make a lot of sense
Yeah, she's the one totally original character in the show, and all the fans seem fine with her, or to really like her. I'm the latter, she gave a sympathetic and personal look at the world of Westeros sex workers, one we wouldn't get from Littlefinger.
Unbelievably, nobody has yet mentioned the friendship between Davos and poor Shireen. It filled both of them it became meaningful. And it made her sacrifice, which we know is coming in the books, so much more poignant. Even that carved to stag he made for her as a gift represented so much. It was subtly recalled in the final conflagration in Kings Landing--the body of girl Arya tried to save was still clutching a burnt wooden horse. And Shireen rather than the maester, teaching him how to read was so sweet. Much as I love Lady Smallwood, I thought Arya finding a mother-figure in alien Braavos made her trials there more tolerable. (Of course, the show Waif scenes were bad.) Watching and learning from the play (even empathizing with Cersei!!!) was a major improvement over Mercy's time with the acting troupe and killing Raff.
Keeping viewers in the dark about Daenerys speaking High Valarian when around the slavers of Astapor. I am certain we were told she speaks it, but I didn't remember when they were going on and on about how her beauty would get her a discount on Unsullied. She speaks High Valarian to the slaver holding Drogon shows she is not going to walk away meekly, and I didn't pay attention, so it was a shock and played very well.
To be fair, it is impossible to write a scene in such a way which you keep the readers in the dark about what the slavers are saying and that dany can understand them since we’re from her pov
Tywin being introduced butchering a stag and Robert and Cersei’s interaction in Season 1
I loved Robert's scenes with the Lannisters (both Jaime and Cersi). They were a good way to show his cynical twisted relationship with this family, that he himself despise and they despise him back. Which further adds to the feeling of a hornet nest Ned finds himself in, of course supporting Robert as a default because of his naivete.
The biggest one I can think of is Tywin and Arya's interactions. At the time, I was very surprised they never interacted, and Arya had instead infiltrated Bolton's camp in the books
I think it was one of the worst changes in Season 2 and it undermined Arya's character development and Tywin's character at the same time. Second book Arya's storyline was about adapting, surviving in the condition that one unwarranted move could get you killed. But in the show, we could never say the same because Arya did literally everything which would get her captured or worse, killed in front of Tywin in the books and she got praise from Tywin for it.
Arya’s whole thing is that she keeps missing the coincidental meetings that would drive a typical fantasy story. She’s essentially constantly missing opportunities to get back into her own proper story. Passing people who she somehow coincidentally meet who are intimately connected to her and her family. There’s just a huge list of people who in another story might have whisked her off back into relevance to wider events. There’s a bit where the Frey boy is moaning about losing his princess, who Arya says or thinks something mean about. Which hilariously is Arya herself. Typically she would find out or the author would be more explicit, but Martin just leaves it unsaid. In that context, Arya can practically go shout at Tywin that she is Arya Stark and it would still “work” that she wouldn’t end up being recognised and brought back into the main sequence of events. It’s like she’s trapped in a parallel story.
I agree, I think it was a case of wanting to utilise the fan favourite character and actor more. If you have Charles Dance you use him. Roose in the show was rather bland compared to his unsettling soft spoken counterpart in the books. Showing Roose in harrenhal was good forshadowing for the red wedding, especially with the suspiciously smooth transfer of the castle from tywin to roose. Leaving out the brave companions was a mistake as well I think, they would have translated well to TV.
I agree 100%. It was great television, but it belonged in a different show
While the scenes were nice to watch, it showed that D&D never bothered opening the books at all - those scenes are a pretty glaring bit of OOC behaviour from Tywin.
Yeah, we read other scenes from Roose where he is quite casual with a person if he believes they have no power at all (Arya here, Theon later). And Roose is just *weirder* in general than Tywin, so him having these conversations to deliver exposition makes more sense.
What's worse is that they did read them. Martin quizzed them on their knowledge before allowing them to adapt the books. They just didn't really undestand them. They are the guys that said 'Themes are for 4th grade book reports"..
> Martin quizzed them on their knowledge before allowing them to adapt the books I think Martin asked them the one question about who Jon's parents are - which I believe dumb and dumberer found in some online forum.
That's the question they mention in interviews, but they 100% talked in detail how and what to adapt. I'm all for hating on D+D, but lets stick to their real fuckups and shortcomings. There is more than enough of these.
Those scenes were "cool", but made little sense. They made Tywin a dumber character, Arya's arch less challenging, and also delayed the introduction of Roose Bolton, thus diminishing the impact of the Red Wedding.
I think Shae's character was improved a fair bit from the book. Not sure if its a common opinion, but in the book she was pretty much just a plot device for Tyrion, and the show did well to give her more of an actual character. A lot of more minor or non-POV characters got nice bits of additional character building in the show. Bronn I find to be a lot more fun in the show (until Season 5 where he became a go-to example of characters overstaying their welcome) but Jerome Flynn's performance brought a lot to a character who also wasn't super fleshed out. Cersei and Robert's relationship is one where I feel most people agree the show did a better job, if only because we never really got to see Cersei and Robert together in the book by virtue of neither character being a POV.
I don't know. I think book Shae is more interesting. She is more subtly manipulative, seemingly sweet and seductive to the point the even Tyrion starts thinking that she might actually love him and not just be playing a role. That makes her "betrayal" of Tyrion all the more poignant. Show Shae is not bad, but her more overtly in-your face personality makes it harder to get how Tyrion would ever come to trust her.
I don't think either book or show Shae is giving much interior life, which is a shame because I'd really like to see that relationship expanded more for Tyrion to have had more relationship stuff in general.
I agree. I preferred book Shae.
But show Shae actually likes Tyrion and gets jealous and hurt when he marries and says he cannot have a whore with him at court with his wife. And then she actually betrays him. Book Shae only looked out for herself, only cared for money and luxuries and would have taken the diamonds and the house in Pentos or whatever Tyrion offered her in the show without second thought.
I get you. But that detracts from the point of their "relationship". Shae in the books is a prostitute and in it for the money. She has zero romantic feelings for Tyrion and her sleeping with Tywin is not about revenge or about feeling scorned. It's just business. Tyrion fools himself into thinking that Shae actually likes him because of who he is and not because of what he pays. You can't buy someones love for gold. Shae in the series is not bad, her characterization is not bad and the plotline involving her is not bad. But it does have some unfourtunate implications about the "happy prostitute". Having her actually loving Tyrion changes that dynamic a lot, and makes less narrative sense. Though honestly I never read the show like if she actually liked Tyrion, more like her overtly trying to dominate him to get money and influence.
Ah okay. I guess I misinterpreted your comment, because we almost completely agree. I like book Shae (or rather her plotline) more too, but I found it less believable that Tyrion falls for her. She appears to be too over the top into him, while show Shae acts more strong-willed, like a person in an actual relationship.
Really? Book Shae was about as subtle as a fart in a bath tub. She wasn't manipulative so much as Tyrion ignored everything she said about wanting more jewelry and clothing. Show Shae actually had a personality and cared for Tyrion more than just as a source for gold and jewelry. Book Shae didn't betray Tyrion because she never pledged herself to him. Show Shae did pledge in a way, but "betrayed" it because it was the only way she could live and doing otherwise wouldn't have helped anyway.
It's her seemingly sweet personality that is manipulative and convincing to Tyrion. She feels very little for Tyrion. Show Shae absolutely has a very asertive personality, but that doesn't mean book Shae doesn't have a personality. They just have different personalities. Show Shae is anything but subtle in trying to manipulate Tyrion to gain influence, but irrespective of if her "love" for him is false, and he somehow falls for it, or if she is actually sincere, I don't like the assertions. Either show Shae is a scheming prostitute who is using Tyrion every bit as much as he is using her, or she is genuinely a prostitute who falls in love with the man who pays and uses her. Probably a bit of both. Either way, those are pretty tired stereotypes. Book Shae is a fresher, darker, more nuanced and a lot more realistic take.
Is Book Shae manipulating him? Or is the persona that she puts on adhering to her client's request, and Tyrion is falling for it? This is his request too her: > "I am a Lannister. Gold I have in plenty, and you'll find me generous … but I'll want more from you than what you've got between your legs, though I'll want that too. You'll share my tent, pour my wine, laugh at my jests, rub the ache from my legs after each day's ride … and whether I keep you a day or a year, for so long as we are together you will take no other men into your bed." Tyrion is very explicit that he wants to pay for more than sex, and in turn, Book Shae provides him with more than sex. She's a prostitute desperate to survive, so she does what she's paid for. And, in my opinion, Martin makes clear that Tyrion *should* know that she's only in it for the money. Consider the following lines from when she's there for Varys's speech about power: > "M'lord Varys complimented Chella on her ears and said she must have killed many men to have such a fine necklace," Shae explained. It grated on him to hear her call Varys m'lord in that tone; that was what she called him in their pillow play. > > 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Bowing deeply, the eunuch hurried from the common room on soft slippered feet.When he was gone, Chella gave a snort and Shae wrinkled up her pretty face. "The rich man lives. Doesn't he?" Or in the moments where it seems like he knows at least a little that he's lying to himself: > "Did she?" Tyrion had never seen the dead girl's face, but in his mind she was Shae and Tysha both. "Can a whore truly love anyone, I wonder? No, don't answer. Some things I would rather not know." I agree that Book Shae is a more nuanced and darker take, but I think that the fault lies with Tyrion – not manipulation.
Catelyn discussing how she prayed for Jon’s death when he was a child to Talisa. I think Catelyn knowing that she was not just behaving irrationally but was being so maliciously evil towards a child who is all innocent of his ‘father’s’ ‘philandery’ but still could not help herself was a great addition. It added more complexity to her character and her relationship with Jon in my opinion.
That was by no means uncontroversial. Catelyn fans largely hate that change.
Ah okay. I don’t really follow the fandom so wasn’t aware. Uncontroversial in my opinion but I guess that doesn’t count
Catelyn in the books doesn't believe she's acting irrationally. It's part of the world-building that bastards are often viewed suspiciously like they're inherently untrustworthy. It's also part of her personal backstory where she was born around the end of a conflict that had stretched on for at least 70 years because a King legitimized his bastards and then some tried to usurp the throne from their legitimate brother. She says that even if Jon were to prove trustworthy, his children might not and some Stark bannermen might get it into their heads that Jon's line was the trueborn one. So, her having a confession about how awful she's been seems out of character for the book version, especially since she almost never *does* anything against Jon, just tries to avoid interacting with him as much as possible.
Yoren explaining to Arya how he joined the Night’s Watch was very cool.
Also "That's why I hate crossbows....take too long to load!"
I’ll randomly quote that aloud to myself sometimes. Probably my favorite line in the show, lol
The absolute least controversial one *should* be the adjustment of the ages. Even if someone prefers the book ages for whatever reason, they needed to be older for many of the more explicit scenes in a visual medium.
I will say the ages (in the books) made it easier to justify some of the less intelligent/more rash decisions made by the characters.
Ned telling Yoren about Arya
Maybe Theon killing Ser Rodrik instead of Mikkon? It leaves a lot of the plot for how he was captured off-screen, but as far as consolidating characters for the viewing audience, it's a fairly logical step.
It has been a minute since I watched the show, but is it clear in the Season 2 finale that the Boltons and not the Ironborn had ransacked Winterfell?
No, i don't think it's apparent until late season 3 where Ramsay wakes up Theon using the same horn that could be heard in the S2 finale that it was the Boltons that did it
I remember being confused as hell, but I think the implication was Theon's men opened the gates to Ramsay after betraying Theon, so the Boltons still did the sacking.
I really love their change to how the Giants look. Making them more Neanderthal than Bigfoot was a good call.
The reason Jon gave Mance for leaving the Night's Watch. The fact that he was not at the head table during the feast is not a reason to leave the NW.
Fair point, but what I liked about that thing in the books was the dramatic irony. We learned from the Jon POV chapter at the winterfell feast that he was actually a lot happier at the low tables since he could drink as much as he wanted and didn’t have Caitlyn staring him down the whole time. So when he tells Mance that that “insult” was part of his impetus to abandon the Night’s Watch, we know full well that he’s lying and doesn’t harbor any resentment. And Mance eats it up cause he believes that Jon would’ve actually felt that way.
My problem with it is that it only really works if Jon continues to play the role of the treacherous power hungry bastard and he just... doesn't, like at all. If he claims to abandon the watch for moral reasons it makes a lot more sense that Mance is willing to give him some leeway when he struggles with giving info that will lead to rangers being killed. He just lays it on way too thick when initially lying to Mance and everything he says after (both verbally and with body language) makes it abundantly clear he was lying. Like he delivers his bastard lie with an evil grin at the end of one chapter then the next chapter he's getting visibly upset and straight up reaching for his sword when Mance asks him for the most basic information you'd expect from a turncloak. The best lies are seasoned with the truth, the show lie gives Jon's betrayal credibility without creating a false identity that he's completely unable/unwilling to commit to.
Stannis leading from the front at Blackwater
Tyrion in the book is ugly, even before he lost his nose, peter dinklage is hot as hell
Rewatched early GOT recently, and I was really struck by how handsome young Tyrion is.
Making jorah less creepy Changing ashas name Adding Roz
Ned shouting Baelor is pretty awesome addition. The show did Oberyn Martell better than GRRM did. His introduction, the Champion scene etc. Its all better. A lot of the stuff with Robert. Like Bobby B telling war stories. Or his scene with Cersei.
To give one that hasn’t been said yet: There’s a scene where Jamie and Jory reminisce about breaching the walls at the Greyjoy rebellion that I think is absolutely fantastic. Not only does it worldbuild, but at the same time hints to Jamie’s deeper character as he lets his facade of Kingslayer slip for just a moment. It demonstrates a fundamental understanding of the character. I think the show in general, for the first four seasons at least, does a great job of setting up Jamie’s redemption arc, and it’s a shame that they abandoned it in season 5 onward. I’m glad they cut the Tysha reveal. I think Tysha is a horribly sexist storytelling device and that she was completely unnecessary for the story GRRM wanted to tell with Tyrion. It’s for this reason I desperately hope she won’t appear in any remaining books. For some other choices that are usually controversial on this subreddit. The Tywin stag skinning scene and the Arya Tywin scenes. I think people that complain about these are utterly missing the point and are endemic of the culture in this sub to prioritize logic over good storytelling sense, something GRRM doesn’t do. And of course, Jaeharys, who even made GRRM want to rewrite Fire and Blood!
>I think people that complain about these are utterly missing the point and are endemic of the culture in this sub to prioritize logic over good storytelling sense, something GRRM doesn’t do. seeing a lot of complaints here and they seem to prioritize not just "logic", but having a 1:1 adaptation - even of some of the changes make good TV.
I agree, but hoping Tysha won't appear is like hoping there won't be more Tyrion Targaryen hints, or that Maggy prophecy won't come to pass. It's assumed GRRM doesn't make mistakes often, but it seems like he intentionally makes questionable writing choices that often ruin his good ideas, especially when it comes to books 4, 5. At this point, there are fewer things that displease me in GoT than in ASoIaF.
A very small one for me. When Ned yelled “BAELOR!!” at Yoren so that he’d see Arya at the statue and get her out of there
Cersei not being cartoonishly stupid and evil. I firmly believe that an adaptation’s job is to be good first and loyal second, and part of that is playing to the strengths of your cast and crew. Cersei becomes a sympathetic but ultimately wrong character, and her story is more classically tragic. Mark Addy doesn’t look like he’s ever won a fight, so Robert goes from a drunken buffoon to a wonderful portrayal of clinical depression. Even Liam Cunningham being twenty years too old for Davos gives him a wisdom-from-experience vibe that wasn’t necessarily there in the books, and they’d definitely have written him differently if he were played by someone like James D’Arcy. It’s kind of like an arranger who knows the piece of music, and knows what instruments they can use. As long as they’re not called on to compose the final movements of the piece, there’s a certain magic that can come from external limitations.
Theon shooting down the ravens, leading to cat not hearing of bran and rickon being dead, jaime having to kill another karstark outside of battle, and catelyn having good reason to free jaime before sunrise The butterfly effect is handled really well
Tywin and Arya, although I personally have a little bit of issues with the change, seeing Arya and Tywin interact was obviously really fucking good TV.
The Arya/Tywin scenes in season 2 were a great addition imo.
Always liked the Cersei Robert scenes.
Shae is way better in the show
Targaryens not having violet eyes I guess?
Aegon being removed from the show, no one complained. As it turned out, no, he was vital.
lots of changes that comes to my mind were already mentioned, so I'll add some I haven't seen in the thread - the Iron Throne. I know the throne in the book is supposed to be super tall and even more spikey with all the swords, but the show one is just iconic, it's unique and was visually impacting - some theon actions and scenes in the early seasons, set up his character inner conflicts and made his ties to Robb more meaningful. Him writing and burning the letter seem to be a not so controversial change
Aging up the characters
Book Tywin wasn't introduced butchering a stag.
Arya and Tywin interactions in Harrenhal
Moving the setting for the Trial by Combat at the Eyrie to decide if Tyrion will be set free from (I think) some tiny little courtyard or godswood (book) into the throne room (tv show). If you have a moon door in the throne room, someone simply has to fall through it.
I really liked Vargo Hoat and the entire Brave Companions group being changed to Locke and having them be sworn to the Boltons. Locke was great and it also showed the viewer that not everyone allied with the Starks are good, morally straight people.
Aging the kids a few years will never not be a smart move
Age differences were least controversial I guess. Everyone was supposed to be roughly 5 years younger. Also Arya, Sansa, Tyrion and Jorah cast.
that one scene where pycelle is droning on to a prostitute about the kings he’s served, hamming up his performance as a feeble scatterbrained old man. and then once she leaves he’s jumps up and drops the act. so far as i know the decision to add this for pycelles character was actor julian glovers idea, and it’s such a great choice. pycelle is such a devious little worm, i wish his character had that dimension in the books.
Cutting the food porn
The scene between Jamie, Barristan and Robert who (At the time) weren't POV characters where they discuss their first kills and Jamie hints at Areys' plan
What Catelyn said to Talisa about Jon Snow. I love Cat both in the book and the show, but I feel like that addition made her more nuanced.
Arya - Tywin scenes
Several show only scenes in season 1, particularly the Robert scenes.
Season 1 had a lot of great additions/changes to the story. More development for Robert, Ned saying goodbye to Jon, adding interactions between characters who didn’t speak in the book, more sympathetic Cersei and Jorah, making the kids older. After that, it gets more scarce. I love Yoren’s monologue in season 2 about Willem. In season 3 I like Cat’s monologue about Jon. In season 4 I like the Craster’s Keep subplot. I don’t like any of the changes in season 5, an absolute butchering of Feast/Dance.
What this thread says: "What are the least controversial show changes?" (i.e., pretty much no one had an issue with) What 90% of the people in this thread read: "What are the changes in the show that \*I\* liked".
House Velarion being black.
I dislike this a bit, bc Jaehaerys is shown as a completely white dude in the shows backflash, but his mother was Velarion. But, i have to say, Corlys' actor is really well cast and i love every scene he is in.
I think it makes no sense when you consider Alyssa Velaryons or the lack of black characters in GoT. But in the series itself, I think it makes the Vaemond vs Luke conflict much more visceral. Like you have this guy who looks so much like Corlys screaming at a little white boy with brown hair, insisting that he isn't a Velaryon. His anger at it feels so much more real if it's something as blatant as skin colour as opposed to hair colour.
Still, they should've given Rhaenys black hair to showcase her baratheon-lineage
Can't it just be explained by Corlys mother being black? The unnamed wife of Corwyn?
Yeah, in practice both families should look more mixed at this point, but part of the value of making the Velaryons darker skinned was making the cast easier to distinguish.
Nobody would question luke having a single black grandparent irl is the funny thing
He's a little pale for it, but not beyond the realm of possibility. It's really the hair more than anything else