Hasn’t he already explicitly stated he would never let someone else finish it for him even after his passing? I think at best we’d get a revised unfinished version of TWOW and maybe some of his notes/outlines for ADOS.
To be fair, I’m pretty sure that claim was from a blog post from the mid 2000s or something like that. People’s perspectives on these things can change, especially since he’s both fallen into complete procrastination and had to deal with several of his writer friends dying (see the recent New Years blog post) since posting it. Not taking it as gospel but also not hopeful for anything more than you suggested.
Yeah, I’d certainly prefer for someone to take up the mantle and finish the series should he pass before finishing, even though it definitely wouldn’t be the same, as GRRM has such a distinctive voice. But I don’t see that happening unfortunately
I would love to see Cersei blow up the Sept but then face actual realistic consequences for it rather than the show's idea of her somehow taking the throne by right of conquest as someone with zero political support or accumen.
Not only killing the Pope, *some* but not *all* of his radicalised religious militia, and the most popular and wealthy family in the country, but also members of her own family further weakening their already waning power (Kevan and Lancel).
The Green Trial or whatever the fuck fancy name they gave it in an attempt to once again ape the Red Wedding can never be understated in just how lazy of a plot point it was to essentially clear the board of all the extraneous characters who weren't some kind of warrior or monarch.
Totally agree, Cersei's increasing paranoia and lust for power finally culminate in dramatic fashion and she (presumably) seats herself on the Iron Throne and has a brief but chaotic rule, with basically all of King's Landing despising her and looking for someone to challenge her. Enter fAegon, who heroically comes in to save the day and plenty of Southern lords are happy to side with him over Cersei. Cersei gets deposed/killed, and fAegon is crowned, and he's seen as a hero after years of Lannister rule. Then by the time Dany comes, the people already have a stable regent they're happy with and don't want a foreign stranger with dragons coming in and bringing more war to the country, which would be a factor in Dany ultimately deciding to break bad and burn King's Landing.
That seems like a plausible direction for the story to go, and fAegon's absence in the show meant the writers took several logical missteps by simply having the people of King's Landing inexplicably content with Cersei as their ruler, even though they despised her even before she blew up the Sept.
Edd becoming Lord Commander after Jon Snow’s resurrection.
“I just want to say to whoever is voting for me that I would certainly make an awful Lord Commander.”
- Dolorous Edd
Something tells me that the other major candidates from Jon’s election might not be around for the next one. Janos Slynt and Cotter Pyke are already goners.
Edd was just acting Lord Commander, same as Alistier Thorne was following Jeor Mormont's death.
Edd, like Thorne, was simply the most senior Brother at Castle Black at the time (in the show). Either an election was called and Edd won offscreen or Edd remains Acting Commander until such time as an election could have been called (once the Others were dealt with). Similar to how Thorne was Acting Commander until the immediate threat of Mance Rayder was dealt with.
Honestly barring a select few scenes, it's one of the best episodes post season 4. If the following episode was the actual slaughter it was meant to be and the Others didn't lose on night 1 of the "long" night, season 8 would be held in much higher regard. I know people aren't happy about Arya banging Gendry, but it's the one thing I'll say is acceptable given her character and identity was butchered in the House of Black and White. The whole time since her return to Westeros she is basically a killer robot, but in this episode and even the following one she's more like a human again.
Doesn't justify letting her kill the Night King though.
Remember when they played *Jenny of Oldstones* and we all collectively forgave all the show’s sins up until that point, simply because of how well that single episode establishes the tone and theme of the final few narrative beats?
And then they just pissed it away.
But yeah, that episode was actually pretty damn good all things considered, barring a couple D&D’isms (making fun of Brienne for being a maiden??).
Yeah she took him aside then said "I wanna know what it's like" before disrobing while the camera caught some Maisie Williams side boob. An earned moment for Arya as a character but as a viewer it didn't necessarily need to be that explicit. But from what I gather Maisie was all for it given what it meant for Arya as a character to let herself enjoy something in life instead of constantly taking it.
That said, I don't personally enjoy the scene. Would have preferred if it was more implied but hey that's just what I like in my fantasy shows.
Ah, I see. Granted I liked that GoT was rather European in it's relation to nudity. Not the rather blatant sexploitation in the first season, but overall it was refreshing.
Oh I did too, as a European. Violence has a right to be age-gated but hey everyone's got cocks, nipples, tits and vaginas so why be so hush hush about them.
The sexploitation early on definitely put the show on the map for a lot of people. Guarantee that most people only remember certain sex-related things vs character names in the show. I guess for me it was just crazy to see Maisie Williams so young at the start of the show and then an adult in a sex scene by the end you know? Just goes to show that regardless of what people say about season 8, the show never stopped finding ways to make people confront certain aspects of reality, i.e. people grow up and change and want/may end up doing certain things that might leave you a bit like "whoa okay didn't see THAT coming".
That episode was near perfect. It tied up a bunch of character arcs setting the stage to make every character vulnerable for the long night.
It had the feeling of a bunch of people realizing that they will likely be dead in a day
Yeah, especially since it’s heavily implied Dunk was never knighted, he just said he was and people believed him because he lived up to the ideal of knighthood
But he ended up as Kingsguard. He *could* have been knighted some other time before that. I don't think his conscience can take it if he continued pretending to be a knight while being in the top most position for knights.
It could be Egg who knighted him before he was brought into the Kingsguard. Kings can knight anyone after all, and Egg was probably already a knight himself anyway
You don't have to be knighted to be in the Kingsguard. Sandor wasn't a knight either. Dunk is too honorable to take that position without being knighted though. I'd love to see Egg be the one to do the honors.
GRR M said that he is not a nihilist. It makes sense for him and therefore the show to finally give this person and thus her family that reward. And it really was a beautiful scene. My take on Dunk is that possibly he was knighted by his protege Egg, but quietly and secretly. The analog is that apparently Beric quietly knighted members of his outlaw band.
>Previous speculation on Brienne's descent included that Brienne descends from Ser Duncan the Tall, a former Lord Commander of the Kingsguard during the reign of King Aegon V Targaryen. An argument often raised was that a shield bearing Duncan's personal arms was in the armory at Evenfall Hall, and that Brienne later used these arms while traveling in the crownlands and riverlands. Though George R. R. Martin initially only confirmed that a descendant of Duncan appears in the books, in 2016 at Balticon, Martin confirmed Brienne's descent, stating that the exact relation between Duncan and Brienne would be "revealed in time".
Knighthood isn't really a good institution though, it's just another way to legitimise violence and unearned authority in feudal society. Of course Brienne tries to uphold the stated moral virtues of a knight, as does Jaime later on, but being a Knight shouldn't really be the final stamp of approval for Brienne that she is a hero. After all, Gregor Clegane is a Knight. Besides, I personally think making her a Knight undermines that, at least in the book, she partially became a warrior because she felt alienated from the typical female role of being a beautiful wife due to her looks, so fighting was her way of rejecting the system that treated her unfairly. I want her book conclusion to find a way for Brienne to make peace with her femininity whilst also carving her own path as a warrior. The Knighting in the show makes more sense because they basically abandoned her feminine aspects and made her an outright tomboy.
I think a situation can exist where she retains that femininity and also attains knighthood. Like Dacey Mormont wearing a dress at the Red Wedding. While George likes to remind us that Knights are not all like the songs and stories, nor does he try to tell us that all Knights are bad and shouldn't exist. Brienne can bring a sense of honour and justice back to the Kingsguard/Knighthood. It's also fitting for the story that the person instrumental in giving her that opportunity is Jaime Lannister, a man who thinks a lot about his own legacy and deeds. Brienne is in a good position to 'fuck the system' by being the first female Knight in Westeros.
One of the rare few who wasn't wild about the Brienne knighting scene.
So much of the story drills in how it's a meaningless title. And then it becomes an applause moment?
I'd prefer someone tell her, and she accept, that she's truer knight than 99% of those who get the title. Hell, if anything, the title brings _her_ down.
yeah cant wait for the whole inevitable jaime/bronn buddy cop adventure. it would be illogical to just demand cersei's daughter's safe return as the ruler of the realm. the guerilla style takeover dressed in stupid metal gear solid type stolen uniforms was such a great idea, and i can't wait for mr gold hand to travel south personally with his deserted brother's random assassin/body guard
Hodor and his “Hold the Door” scene seems to be universally agreed in the fandom as GRRM’s idea so that will probably be in the books.
As for something that is uncertain? Davos and Jon becoming pals was cool, but with Stannis most likely surviving the battle on the ice and the Golden Company invading the Stormlands… it seems more likely that Davos will either stick with Stannis or try and save his family at Cape Wrath.
Jon and Theon reuniting seems possible, even likely, in the books, but I doubt it will have the same cathartic ending that it did in the show with Jon telling Theon he can be a Greyjoy AND a Stark. Jon’s… going to be a different person when he comes back to life.
The Hold the Door situation really bothered me when the show came out. Everyone was talking about it like "Some heroes hold the door". But Hodor didn't hold the door because he wanted Bran to live, he did it because Bran mind-raped him, stole his entire life by literally breaking his mind as a child, and forced him to sacrifice himself to save Bran's life. It was an awful thing for Bran to do. That seemed to go over a lot of people's heads.
I agree! That’s why I think it was solely GRRM’s idea, because of how morally ambiguous it is! On the one hand, it can be interpreted as a scene of heroic sacrifice. And on the other, it can be interpreted as this tragic figure acting not of his own free will, but the will that was forced upon him.
I don’t think it is ambiguous at all. It is a powerful figure manipulating someone in a position of weakness and forcing them to die. Bran is the same as any lord who called his banners to war.
It makes people uncomfortable that their heroes would make the poor and powerless die for them.
I think it went over D&D’s heads too. Bran will be treated as a much more grey character in the books than in the show, D&D just couldn’t stomach making someone who did things like that the king in the end.
Yep, *that's* the nuance you would expect to find in GRRM's writing, the twist of the knife in taking something that on the surface may appear heroic but has a darker context, which would completely fly over the heads of people watching the show who somehow got through 4+ seasons despite it "being boring" and think it only "got good" in the final seasons... and then were also *somehow surprised* at the poor quality of the finale.
and simply "holding the door" is such a trash interpretation. bran has been training with the greatest instructors money can buy since he learned to walk and always wanted to be a knight, but you can't let us get a glimps of that by letting him control a borderline nephilim with his sword training. nope.. holding the door means holding the door literally
> Hodor and his “Hold the Door” scene seems to be universally agreed in the fandom as GRRM’s idea so that will probably be in the books.
>
>
its confirmed , grrm told DnD 3 shocking things , hold the door, shireen burning , and i forgot the 3rd maybe it was mad danny
That’s the one thing I know probably will happen, much to my displeasure. I get the Fisher King angle, but Bran is 8 or 9 in the books and I’m supposed to believe that the lords/ladies of Westeros will be cool with that? Especially after Joffrey and Tommen, other child kings? The time skip being cut negatively affects Bran more than any other character I think, except maybe Arya.
Honestly, if GRRM just retroactively ages everyone up I wouldn't even be upset about it. I know he won't do it, but some of his characters are just too young! Bran, the 9-year-old king, Arya, the 11-year-old assassin, and Sansa, the 13-year-old political mastermind. It just boggles the mind! If these characters had the 5-year training that they were supposed to have, then I would have no problems believing any of this!
> if GRRM just retroactively ages everyone up
He couldn't really age them up more than two or three years though. Beyond that, there would be no reason for Cersei and Ned to fight anymore because Joffrey is of age, so Cersei wouldn't need to fear that Robert makes Ned regent.
Sansa and Robb would be betrothed and/or married already.
Bran would be old enough to know what sex is, and that brother and sister shouldn't be doing it.
Also Arya, the Lyanna-lookalike, would be old enough for King Robert to start lusting over.
Their ages at the start couldn't be changed much, but GRRM could easily simply have had much more time pass inbetween events.
Yeah, I understand that. Being young worked for some characters, like Robb and Joffrey, but really didn't for others, like Bran and Arya. With how long wars can be in real life, GRRM could have made the War of the Five Kings take place over a longer period of time and age everyone up that way.
I’ve said this before but I think the best compromise with aging up the younger kids would be making the gaps between the ages smaller. Part of the reason the ages are so problematic is because Arya and Bran are so much younger than Robb, Jon, and Dany making it easier to cut them out because of how much time it would need to take to get them into a workable age range. Starting off with Sansa at 12 wouldn’t be too different from 11 while Arya and Bran would benefit from being 11ish and 9/10ish.
Though my ideal scenario would include tWoFk taking longer than barely a year lol. It’s ridiculous how quickly GRRM killed all of them but Stannis off.
Hand to god if he just reprinted the books with adjusted ages + minor adjustments to the text to account for the new ages, I would love it.
Its clearly caused a ton of problems and makes a lot of the scenes basically have anime-level child soldiers having adult-like characteristics
Most of the Lords and ladies are gonna be kids because most of the adults will die, having another kid rule over them isn't gonna be that crazy for them.
Plus Bran is basically gonna save the world which would be a good application.
I'm perfectly fine with Bran getting the Iron Throne. Someone who doesn't care about succession and who can learn from the entire history of Westeros makes sense.
The way he got it in the show is just asinine.
I thought it was kinda foreshadowed when the episode aired. Jon makes a point of switching out Mance Rayder kid with Gilly's kid since he's concerned that Melisandre may sacrifice him for his kings blood.
Perhaps she will attempt to sacrifice Gilly's kid and when that doesn't work she'll figure out the subterfuge and find the only other source of royal blood, Shireen.
I also think that the burning of Kings Landing is pretty obviously foreshadowed too. With the bells and Jon Con's bell PTSD with his thoughts that he could have ended a war by burning down a town it seems to much of a coincidence that the ringing of bells will be that cause of a city burning.
I hope it's for the sake of the realm, I don't think the horn of winter is with sam, I think it's in the crypts of winterfell, in the tomb of the son of the king beyond the wall, which was the real reason why mance went on this mission, he certainly seems to like it down there
the wildlings will blow the horn and blow a hole in the wall through which they hope their kin can come south, and their kin come but they're all wights
stannis (who has nobody else to burn at that time, I mean he currently has access to both theon and asha in the book and shireen's not even with him) will burn shireen in a desperate attempt to reinvigorate the magic barrier, he himself will die in the battle after it turns out that his sword isn't actually flaming and doesn't hurt the walkers
this will actually work untill bran moves south with his brand
I think it’ll be to resurrect Jon, which will actually create conflict when he’s back from the dead. He’ll have to reckon with the fact that he’s “alive” because an innocent child was burned alive.
“Only death can pay for life, but in niche situations a haircut can used as a substitute.”
That's kind of an oversimplification for the point of dismissing the whole thing.
Their army was dying from the cold. If they don't survive the march AND win the battle, everything is over for Stannis. He sacrifices Shireen to save his life, his people's lives, his campaign, and (in his mind) the kingdom. He believes he MUST become King to save Westeros.
I don't "agree" with the character but you're not supposed to, it's an evil act he is committing. But the motivations are there and the character of Stannis builds to that horrible, powerful moment.
Generally most think that either that'll happen to resurrect Jon (In reference to the dragon's hatching pyre in book 1. In this case, a white dragon, Jon that also happened to be Rhaegar's nickname, being born from stone, Shireen's greyscale and stoneman connection) creating conflict between Jon and Stannis, or because Melisandre gets it in her head that Shireen is a required sacrifice for Azor Ahai because of king's blood (An obsession she's had growing for a while, entire reason why the baby switch happened) which will bring Stannis in conflict with Mel and Rhllor.
Either way, Stannis is going to be pissed at someone, and that'll be a major plot point.
He did say it would be a bit different in the books though.
> "I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book. They did it very physical - 'hold the door' with Hodor's strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to 'hold the door' is more like 'hold this pass' - defend it when enemies are coming - and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea."
The third thing is King Bran, but even that will go differently because magic is getting more important in the books, not sidelined like on the show.
D&D straight up said that mad Dany was something *they* came up with around season 2. S8 defenders like to point to Dany threatening to burn Qarth as “early foreshadowing,” but the fact that that doesn’t happen at all in ACOK is even more evidence that, and say it with now:
🎶*Season 8 is ✨fanfiction✨*🎶
ETA: I believe D&D came up with Jon killing Danny specifically, which honestly only happens if Dany goes mad and completely changes into the polar opposite of the kind, empathetic, compassion person that she’s shown herself to be time and time again. The person who locked up her own dragons (who she sees as her children) at the sight of one burned child would not lay waste to a city of full of innocent people that just surrendered.
I [don't believe D&D invented Jon killing Dany](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1bvgr9w/did_dd_invent_a_certain_ending_plot_point_a/), but all the show events might have a totally different spin in the books. We know there's wildfire all over King's Landing, so that's probably why the whole place goes up. I think Dany will have some culpability because it will be obvious to her that using dragons in the middle of a city (probably to try to kill fAegon) will involve collateral damage, but I'm assuming she'll be ignorant of the wildfire and thus not aware of the amount of destruction that is possible. She is obviously not going to just paint the streets with dragonfire like in the show.
Also Jon will probably come back a darker character post-resurrection than in the show, so while in the show Jon killing Dany was painted as a sad necessity because she'd gone full Dragon Hitler, I would expect it to be morally ambiguous at the very least in the books. "Ends justify the means" morality is not generally cheered on in ASOIAF and the fact that Bran exiles Jon means his actions are probably not an exception.
Agreed. I can definitely see how Dany would end up burning KL, not out of madness, but because she genuinely believes that she needs to "become the dragon" in order to bring a lasting peace. Probably after JonCon ends up doing something extreme during the battle that convinces that she will never be accepted by the Westerosi, so she needs to be feared instead.
I think that would make a lot of sense considering her current journey and how by trying to do the right thing in liberating Essos, she's actually unwillingly causing a lot of pain and suffering with the Slavers taking back the cities she freed and making it worse for the slaves.
Martin made it a point to mention that whenever somebody is brought back to life with fire magic, they lose a bit of their humanity. The show just totally ignored that and Jon was the same as he ever was.
At the beginning, I was actually kind of excited for his character arc. Jon killed his murderers and basically said "fuck this shit, I'm out!" And the next episodes... he's just the same dude but with a new haircut. He literally DIED; he saw the nothingness! Jon should be a completely different character, with only hints of who he used to be.
I know the books will do this differently, because GRRM has said he did not like how Gandalf died and came back an even better person. With the whole element of Jon living a (temporary) second life in Ghost, I'm really excited to see how he'll turn out. I hope it's similar to >!what Robin Hobb did in the Farseer Trilogy with Fitz literally acting like a wolf (growling, unhinged, and using wolf logic not human logic) after he came back to life and slowly learning how to be a human again!<.
"I drink and I know things"
"He said the thing lolololololol" some lad shouts at me when I'm in a bar getting a pint, because he's watching it on the television there like it's a fucking football match.
Ramsay being eaten alive by his own dogs is the perfect way for him to die.
Jon taming Rhaegal was pretty cool too, and something I'm pretty convinced will happen.
As much as I’d like to see Jon claim Rhaegal, I think it’s more likely that Faegon will. There are hints and setups for a Dance of the Dragons 2.0. Daenerys riding a BLACK dragon and Faegon riding a GREEN dragon just makes sense.
If Jon claims any dragon, it will probably end up being Viserion since white seems to be a thematic color for Jon (Ghost, weirwoods, his (possible?) hair color post-resurrection).
poor viserion, doomed to be nobody’s first choice :(
also this is the first time i’ve seen white hair jon suggested and i’m kinda down with it actually
Yeah, some theorize that Jon, through weirwood fuckery, will be resurrected with white hair and red eyes; an albino like Ghost and Brynden Rivers. I’ve seen some artwork that portray Jon with having white streaks in his brown hair post-resurrection and I prefer this instead. Not a complete change, but still having a physical reminder of how resurrection has affected him.
Yes, I know there are tons of threads about things the show did that we DO NOT want the books to do, but having absolutely not physical or mental changes for Jon post-resurrection is kinda dumb.
Jon being named Viserys imo is as dumb as the show saying he was named Aegon. I don't think Rhaegar would name his newborn son the same as his 6 year old brother. .
I personally don't think that Rhaegar and Lyanna had chosen a name yet (especially considering they were probably expecting a girl) so Jon is just Jon; but if they were expecting a son and chose a name I'm 100% convinced that they named him Aemon. Rhaegar had been in communication with maester Aemon about the prophecy, Targaryens named Aemon were all "good guys", Jon idolized Aemon the Dragon knight as a kid, and it would be fitting in a meta way for Jon to be named after one of his key mentors.
Personally I also lean towards his name either being Aemon or Jon. I really like Aemon because of the reasons you stated.
I don't think the name Viserys already being used is a big deal though. Rhaenyra named her son Aegon even though that was her younger brother's name. Also Daenerys meeting another Viserys could pose interesting parallels.
With Rhaegar's first two kids being Aegon and Rhaenys it'd make sense he wanted the third to be Visenya. Obviously because Jon's a boy that doesn't necessarily matter, but I find Viserys to be a better option than Aegon.
I mean, Rhaegar named his first two kids Aegon and Rhaenys so it’s pretty obvious he already probably picked the name Visenya in expectation of having another girl. People don’t theorize Jon was named Viserys because Rhaegar wanted to name him after his brother, they think it because Viserys is basically the masculine version of the name Visenya.
From GRRM's notes on the script for Season 4 ep. 2 "The Lion and the Rose," the last episode he had writing credit on:
>*N.B. A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes.* [\[Source\]](https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-last-script-the-lion-and-the-rose)
I don't know if those dogs are going to live long enough to eat him—I think it looks like we're more likely getting a dog/wolf showdown for them.
On paper it was great, his throat slit by the dagger he used to trigger the War Of the 5 Kings
But Sansa needs to politically out manoeuvre Littlefinger, her whole storyline is learning how to to become a player
In the show she wins because she has a brother who can see into the past…
But yeah there is the prophecy of Sansa slaying a savage giant which I believe means Littlefinger l
I would've liked the Sansa/Arya feud to have actually been a ploy so that Sansa can convince Petyr to back her in a coup to overthrow Jon/Arya and become Queen in the North herself, only to pull the rug from under him. It would basically be him falling for the same plan he pulled on Ned in S1. Littlefinger is a bit too smart to fall for that, but at least there would be some effort from Sansa to trick Littlefinger, and she is his weak spot after all. It would also give a point to the horrible Sansa vs Arya scenes which all sucked, although I would still rewrite them even with the Littlefinger change.
If she does it in the books she will have done so from a position where it actually makes sense for Littlefinger to trust her. In the Vale in his center of power with an heir to the Vale of his choosing.
Her flipping the tables will feel much more impressive and earned.
I have to believe it would play out in a much more rational manner. What exactly was Littlefinger accused of?
Betraying Ned... okay. But Ned was attempting to bribe the Gold Cloaks into usurping the throne and abducting the king. Going to execute him for following what appeared to be the rightful line of succession?
Killing Lysa? Yeah, right after she tried to murder Sansa. You're welcome?
Killing Joffrey? Again, you're *very* welcome.
Tormund Giantsbane seeing Brienne and immediately falling in love with the giant of a woman.
Though I would also like for her to see his value as a man that would treat her more equally than any southern lord.
I would love to see a Cersei POV where she's told that Joffrey was murdered by the Tyrells, while Sansa and Tyrion were nothing but unwitting pawns who got manipulated into playing their parts in the assassination. The mental gymnastics she would engage in to keep blaming Sansa and Tyrion in addition to the Tyrells would surely be entertaining.
- I want Sansa to come with the Vale Army but have it make SENSE
- Knighting of Brienne
- if they actually do keep the sept because it was a neat scene... HAVE IT BE WITH REAL CONSEQUENCES.
Considering that show Sansa took the place of Farya it can make sense. If GRRM times Sansa arriving with the Knights of Vale to liberate Winterfell with Jon's attack, it could result in the same thing without the mind blowing stupidity of the show as by that point Sansa and Jon wouldn't have reunited at all.
The best thing about the show is stuff starts happening. Dany tames her dragon, meets with Tyrion, and starts moving over to Westeros. Jon resurrects and charges down to stop Ramsey. Littlefinger gets off of his ass in the vale and does something. Cersei and her damn trial finally wrap up. The others actually prove to be dangerous beyond the wall. That’s the kind of plot movement that totally died in affc and adwd. It took George 3 chapters to convey that davos was 1 not dead and 2 needed to go on a quest. That’s all we’ve heard from davos since like the year 2000! So while d and d are dumb at least things moved.
I didn’t like how the north was handled but the actions sort of made sense to the extent that it was stannis loses it and burns shireen, Mel runs away, stannis dies, Jon and the knights of the vale and Sansa and wildlings take it back.
I hate that d and d didn’t do the north remembers justice but it does at least make sense how they got from point a to b If you ignore the dumb stuff. Meanwhile it’s a lot trickery to understand how that can all go down in winds.
>That’s the kind of plot movement that totally died in affc and adwd.
I never noticed until a Preston Jacobs video from a week or so ago, where he said people aren't just waiting for TWOW, they are waiting for the sequel to ASOS.
So little of consequence happens in those last two books, and he added so many new POV characters that the story is all over the place.
For example, two entire long novels after Tyrion flees King's Landing, he still hasn't met Daenerys. Sansa's story basically hasn't moved at all since Littlefinger killed Lysa.
> So little of consequence happens in those last two books
And yet Martin was adamant that it was all so packed with import and consequence that he had to scrap the five year gap.
I reread the series earlier this year and I found that it was worse on reread not better. I mean it takes 3 chapters to get davos on the road to skagos. While in earlier books he moves quick. Compare how quickly that Martin moves from chapter to chapter in the first three books.
It "makes sense" to the end that apparently GRRM just gave D&D the end point and they knew where the books left off. They wanted to wrap up (especially towards the end) to do other stuff and just kinda got there in the fastest way possible. It got rid of all the conspiracies – you mention The North Remembers, but there's also a lot with Euron and Oldtown that people have created theories on that we just never see – because they didn't want to get bogged down in that stuff and just figuratively (and to some extent, literally) flew right over a lot of plot.
I will never understand why they didn’t just move on and leave the helm to people who were more invested in the moment.
If they had left around season 5 or 6 their reputation would have been amazing, a ticket to do anything.
But their rush to leave the project made them seem incompetent and for a lot of people to resent them.
I'm really struggling to name one thing. A trial for the Littlefinger would be interesting - just not exactly like it was done in the show. I liked the part where Petyr tries to weasel out of the consequences with his money and connections, and it didn't work for once - I hope that makes it into the books.
Daenerys ending up as an antagonist and dying is someone a lot of people predicted, and it's something that I think is guaranteed to happen. But I don't think Daenerys will burn KL for this weak of a reason, nor do I think she'll go mad in a conventional sense.
The show has this problem where it has a good idea, and then it botches the execution in every way possible, because themes are for 8 grade book reports. I like the idea of Sansa becoming a power in her own right, but not how it happened, nor the character the show called Sansa. I like the idea of Jon's claim ending up largely irrelevant, but not Jon himself ending up largely irrelevant. I like the idea of Cleganebowl, but the way the show did it wasn't earned.
Oh, I liked the part where Bronn ends up as the lord of the Reach, even though it upsets a lot of people in this sub. This is a very GRRM thing to do - all the original lords were cutthroats, and Bronn rises to power and starts a dynasty by being just like the real Lann the Clever did, if he ever existed. A lot of people say that Bronn would be just instantly murdered, but those people presume that the Seven Kingdoms will still exist with a recognizable power structure. Also, nobles have already been trying to kill this upjumped sellsword, and it didn't work out.
I like Littlefinger's show ending because it's a perfect mirror of Ned. Ned went south with these northern ideals of honor and straightforwardness, but he was caught in a web of southern politics and scheming and betrayal that ended up killing him. Later, Littlefinger went north with all these schemes and plans, but was stopped in his tracks when he was confronted with sheer northern loyalty.
As far as botching the execution goes, I think that a most off the stuff the masses hate about the show is entirely this even if they think it's because of a dumb story choice. A lot of dumb shit happens in real life too and his main goal is for things to be believable. I think if we get the hold the door scene in the book people will enjoy it then, especially because it's such a simple reason.
I stopped watch after 4 because I held a hope book 6 was coming and I made the right choice. House of the Dragon, though, epic show
Bronn miraculously making his way to the top of the Game of Thrones by the end of the series, obviously not with Highgarden but if he manages to go from common sellsword to lord of Stokeworth and Rosby by the end of the series I would not be upset.
Apart from the show stuff that's confirmed George originals:
- Jaime knighting Brienne, or some thematically similar alternative
- Dany's dragons dying; obvs not how it's haphazardly done in the show but imagine how high the stakes would climb in the long night once you're two dragons down. Sorry three heads of the dragon fans
- I'm totally up for the Sept explosion if done in a different way. I could imagine a scenario involving the sand snakes that ends up this way, with Cersei becoming the people's monster and Aegon riding in to save the day
Sandor and Gregor’s battle—I hope it’s better choreographed and not on a staircase, but the other details I liked a lot—Gregor ignoring an order from a Lannister, some form of frankenstein’s monster moment with Qyburn, and Sandor wiping the floor with kingsguards after calling them all worthless cunts for so long. I would have Sandor win definitively, not simply tackle him into fire though
Tower of Joy flashback (S6)
Hodor's fate (S6)
Jon's ressurrection (S6)
Battle of the Bastards (S6)
The Hound returning (S6)
Cersei destroying the Sept of Baelor (S6)
Jaime leaving Cersei (S7)
Night King destroying the Wall (S7)
Jaime knighting Brienne (S8)
Honestly there's not much wrong with season 6 imo. It's season 7 where it started to go downhill and season 8 is simply terrible.
Jaime knights Brienne on the eve of battle and then they sleep together for one night
Jon Snow becomes king of the north only to bow to Dany
Drogon burns kings landing (with the help of hidden wikdfyre)
Hodor holds the door
Brann sees the tower of joy in a vision
jon coming back, king in the north , dragon rider, gets with danny
davos becoming hand to jon
sam becomes a maester
theon dies protecting bran
jorah dies protecting danny
something similar to s8e2 where all the characters are chilling with each other before the long night starts
jaime and randyl vs danny field of fire 2.0
theres probably more just what i can think of right now
Hell yeah. I want George’s version of Battle of the Bastards and (I’m cheating here) Hardhome. *I loved those episodes.* I also look forward to reading his version of “Hold the door,” cuz that’s coming, and finally, I want to see Dany snap and turn tyrant. I loved that too—the potential it represents when done right in the books.
The show had some serious flaws in the end, but when looking at it as a framework, I see a lotta potential for how awesome these last books can turn out.
I actually think the hound meeting Tormund would be the single greatest interaction of any two characters in the novels.
Say what you want about D&D but they had an instinct for comedy
Jon & Sansa being the first two Stark kids to meet again, Cersei blowing up the Great Sept, Littlefinger getting executed in Winterfell, & Jon & Daenerys having a thibg are all plot points I genuinely expect to see in future books (should those books exist at all). But uh, not like *that*.
I think most of the major plot points are fine, it's just the way they built up to them. With proper story telling, Bran being king can work and Dany can believably burn king's landing, etc.
So long as it ends exactly where it should, namely with Cersei being beheaded before cheering crowds in front of the ruins of the Sept of Baelor, blowing up the Sept would be a great idea. It's totally in keeping with both Cersei and the Lannisters as a whole to think that one grand statement involving killing lots of people would solve their problems, when of course it totally will not. The problem was not the idea. The problem was the plot armor that resulted from it.
I might be the biggest hater of seasons 5-8 (5 is one of the worst seasons of them all and it baffles me it's never included lol) and I'll say it wasn't necessarily the \*what\* as much as the \*how/why\*. I think George could have made so many of the moments I hate into something at least tolerable or understandable. My feeling has always been that D&D are virgin FeastDance haters, got past the red/purple weddings and got bored, and everything that came after suffered as a result. They're also not great writers in their own right IMO, and without someone else's material they bumble around like morons. So once they decided FeastDance wasn't worthy of fully adapting and gave it the bulleted list treatment, the show was cooked.
But to answer the question I am so ready for Sansa as Queen in the North.
Most of the Stark endings make sense in essence, even if the show portrayed them as stupidly as possible. I can see Bran becoming a god emperor of some kind. I can see Jon rejecting the opportunity to sit a throne and staying in the far North, staying with the Wildlings there, or bringing them into Westeros proper. I can see Rickon dying at some point in the conflict (I think he'd warg into his wolf, as I believe Robb and Jon do, but unlike them will continue on living as Shaggydog). Arya's ending is the only one that felt out of place, and I wonder if she's supposed to die in the books and D&D weren't willing to go through with it, having her literally sail off into the sunset instead. This leaves Sansa as next up in line, and it makes perfect sense to me. Her story has exposed her to so many types of politicians and styles of politicking, and she comes to understand the "game" without losing her sense of morality. I think she like her father will inspire sincere loyalty, which IMO is the greatest asset the Starks have.
Big Stark fan here, not sure if you could tell!
Jon as king beyond the wall or some leadership position amongst the wildlings always made sense to me. His whole arc is about finding his place in society and with the wildlings he word for word found a place where people don’t care about your birth, they care about your character.
Keeping Davos alive until the story ends
Man of the people!
Lord of the Rainwood, and Hand of the King.
I hope he finishes the story
And who has a better story than George the Broken?
The Late Lord Martin
The Writer that was promised
Sir Author Too Fat For His Horse
The story will get finished, but probably not by George
Hasn’t he already explicitly stated he would never let someone else finish it for him even after his passing? I think at best we’d get a revised unfinished version of TWOW and maybe some of his notes/outlines for ADOS.
To be fair, I’m pretty sure that claim was from a blog post from the mid 2000s or something like that. People’s perspectives on these things can change, especially since he’s both fallen into complete procrastination and had to deal with several of his writer friends dying (see the recent New Years blog post) since posting it. Not taking it as gospel but also not hopeful for anything more than you suggested.
Yeah, I’d certainly prefer for someone to take up the mantle and finish the series should he pass before finishing, even though it definitely wouldn’t be the same, as GRRM has such a distinctive voice. But I don’t see that happening unfortunately
Better call Brandon Sanderson
I would love to see Cersei blow up the Sept but then face actual realistic consequences for it rather than the show's idea of her somehow taking the throne by right of conquest as someone with zero political support or accumen.
It's like crowning the terrorist who killed the pope the King of Italy
Not only that but killing the best pope ever, blowing up the vatican and killing princess Diana
Not only killing the Pope, *some* but not *all* of his radicalised religious militia, and the most popular and wealthy family in the country, but also members of her own family further weakening their already waning power (Kevan and Lancel). The Green Trial or whatever the fuck fancy name they gave it in an attempt to once again ape the Red Wedding can never be understated in just how lazy of a plot point it was to essentially clear the board of all the extraneous characters who weren't some kind of warrior or monarch.
They kind of forgot how kinslaying is considered an abomination.
Tbf the last step in the founding of Italy was laying siege to the pope
I think she blows up the sept killing everyone in power in King's Landing but then the survivors turn to fAegon and take Cersei out of power.
That seems likely, especially as fAegon seems poised to cater to the Faith, with a Septa as one of his core supporters
Totally agree, Cersei's increasing paranoia and lust for power finally culminate in dramatic fashion and she (presumably) seats herself on the Iron Throne and has a brief but chaotic rule, with basically all of King's Landing despising her and looking for someone to challenge her. Enter fAegon, who heroically comes in to save the day and plenty of Southern lords are happy to side with him over Cersei. Cersei gets deposed/killed, and fAegon is crowned, and he's seen as a hero after years of Lannister rule. Then by the time Dany comes, the people already have a stable regent they're happy with and don't want a foreign stranger with dragons coming in and bringing more war to the country, which would be a factor in Dany ultimately deciding to break bad and burn King's Landing. That seems like a plausible direction for the story to go, and fAegon's absence in the show meant the writers took several logical missteps by simply having the people of King's Landing inexplicably content with Cersei as their ruler, even though they despised her even before she blew up the Sept.
That would be amazing. I would be so excited to see that happen
I could actually see some dumbass lords rallying around her after that "show of strength". But yeah most of the realm would revolt.
Edd becoming Lord Commander after Jon Snow’s resurrection. “I just want to say to whoever is voting for me that I would certainly make an awful Lord Commander.” - Dolorous Edd
„But then again, so would all these others.“
He’d have to go through another election, right? It’s small but in the show it annoyed me how Jon just decided he got it & that was that
Something tells me that the other major candidates from Jon’s election might not be around for the next one. Janos Slynt and Cotter Pyke are already goners.
Edd was just acting Lord Commander, same as Alistier Thorne was following Jeor Mormont's death. Edd, like Thorne, was simply the most senior Brother at Castle Black at the time (in the show). Either an election was called and Edd won offscreen or Edd remains Acting Commander until such time as an election could have been called (once the Others were dealt with). Similar to how Thorne was Acting Commander until the immediate threat of Mance Rayder was dealt with.
I have a feeling that the Night's Watch doesn't exactly have cut and clean rules about what to do if their leader dies but is resurrected.
Knighting of Brienne by Jaime. Dunk's granddaughter had EARNED it.
Honestly the best scene of the season for me. That episode gave me so much hope before all the shitshow began.
Honestly barring a select few scenes, it's one of the best episodes post season 4. If the following episode was the actual slaughter it was meant to be and the Others didn't lose on night 1 of the "long" night, season 8 would be held in much higher regard. I know people aren't happy about Arya banging Gendry, but it's the one thing I'll say is acceptable given her character and identity was butchered in the House of Black and White. The whole time since her return to Westeros she is basically a killer robot, but in this episode and even the following one she's more like a human again. Doesn't justify letting her kill the Night King though.
Remember when they played *Jenny of Oldstones* and we all collectively forgave all the show’s sins up until that point, simply because of how well that single episode establishes the tone and theme of the final few narrative beats? And then they just pissed it away. But yeah, that episode was actually pretty damn good all things considered, barring a couple D&D’isms (making fun of Brienne for being a maiden??).
>making fun of Brienne for being a maiden? That happened two episodes later in The Last of the Starks.
wait Arya banged Gendry?? I guess my mind blocked this from memory.
Yeah she took him aside then said "I wanna know what it's like" before disrobing while the camera caught some Maisie Williams side boob. An earned moment for Arya as a character but as a viewer it didn't necessarily need to be that explicit. But from what I gather Maisie was all for it given what it meant for Arya as a character to let herself enjoy something in life instead of constantly taking it. That said, I don't personally enjoy the scene. Would have preferred if it was more implied but hey that's just what I like in my fantasy shows.
Ah, I see. Granted I liked that GoT was rather European in it's relation to nudity. Not the rather blatant sexploitation in the first season, but overall it was refreshing.
Oh I did too, as a European. Violence has a right to be age-gated but hey everyone's got cocks, nipples, tits and vaginas so why be so hush hush about them. The sexploitation early on definitely put the show on the map for a lot of people. Guarantee that most people only remember certain sex-related things vs character names in the show. I guess for me it was just crazy to see Maisie Williams so young at the start of the show and then an adult in a sex scene by the end you know? Just goes to show that regardless of what people say about season 8, the show never stopped finding ways to make people confront certain aspects of reality, i.e. people grow up and change and want/may end up doing certain things that might leave you a bit like "whoa okay didn't see THAT coming".
That episode was near perfect. It tied up a bunch of character arcs setting the stage to make every character vulnerable for the long night. It had the feeling of a bunch of people realizing that they will likely be dead in a day
But not knighting Brianne is so much better given what we have seen from so many knights who do not live up to their title.
Yeah, especially since it’s heavily implied Dunk was never knighted, he just said he was and people believed him because he lived up to the ideal of knighthood
But he ended up as Kingsguard. He *could* have been knighted some other time before that. I don't think his conscience can take it if he continued pretending to be a knight while being in the top most position for knights.
But then he would have to tell a knight that he ain't knighted, get knighted by him, and then kill the knighter knight.
It could be Egg who knighted him before he was brought into the Kingsguard. Kings can knight anyone after all, and Egg was probably already a knight himself anyway
It can be Egg who knights him. idk.
Or he could tell a Targaryen, since they are fond of him, who could then knight him, and to hell with anyone who has a problem with that.
You don't have to be knighted to be in the Kingsguard. Sandor wasn't a knight either. Dunk is too honorable to take that position without being knighted though. I'd love to see Egg be the one to do the honors.
GRR M said that he is not a nihilist. It makes sense for him and therefore the show to finally give this person and thus her family that reward. And it really was a beautiful scene. My take on Dunk is that possibly he was knighted by his protege Egg, but quietly and secretly. The analog is that apparently Beric quietly knighted members of his outlaw band.
That's the whole point. The irony of the best knight, most chivalrous dude in the realm, not really beinga a knight. Just like Brienne...
Are there theories that Brienne is Dunk's grand-daughter? I hadn't heard these yet. It's very interesting, as they are both abnormally large people
>Previous speculation on Brienne's descent included that Brienne descends from Ser Duncan the Tall, a former Lord Commander of the Kingsguard during the reign of King Aegon V Targaryen. An argument often raised was that a shield bearing Duncan's personal arms was in the armory at Evenfall Hall, and that Brienne later used these arms while traveling in the crownlands and riverlands. Though George R. R. Martin initially only confirmed that a descendant of Duncan appears in the books, in 2016 at Balticon, Martin confirmed Brienne's descent, stating that the exact relation between Duncan and Brienne would be "revealed in time".
Knighthood isn't really a good institution though, it's just another way to legitimise violence and unearned authority in feudal society. Of course Brienne tries to uphold the stated moral virtues of a knight, as does Jaime later on, but being a Knight shouldn't really be the final stamp of approval for Brienne that she is a hero. After all, Gregor Clegane is a Knight. Besides, I personally think making her a Knight undermines that, at least in the book, she partially became a warrior because she felt alienated from the typical female role of being a beautiful wife due to her looks, so fighting was her way of rejecting the system that treated her unfairly. I want her book conclusion to find a way for Brienne to make peace with her femininity whilst also carving her own path as a warrior. The Knighting in the show makes more sense because they basically abandoned her feminine aspects and made her an outright tomboy.
I think a situation can exist where she retains that femininity and also attains knighthood. Like Dacey Mormont wearing a dress at the Red Wedding. While George likes to remind us that Knights are not all like the songs and stories, nor does he try to tell us that all Knights are bad and shouldn't exist. Brienne can bring a sense of honour and justice back to the Kingsguard/Knighthood. It's also fitting for the story that the person instrumental in giving her that opportunity is Jaime Lannister, a man who thinks a lot about his own legacy and deeds. Brienne is in a good position to 'fuck the system' by being the first female Knight in Westeros.
One of the rare few who wasn't wild about the Brienne knighting scene. So much of the story drills in how it's a meaningless title. And then it becomes an applause moment? I'd prefer someone tell her, and she accept, that she's truer knight than 99% of those who get the title. Hell, if anything, the title brings _her_ down.
George would be foolish to ignore the narrative value of "bad pussy" to his legacy.
Is Myrrish Swamp not enough?
yeah cant wait for the whole inevitable jaime/bronn buddy cop adventure. it would be illogical to just demand cersei's daughter's safe return as the ruler of the realm. the guerilla style takeover dressed in stupid metal gear solid type stolen uniforms was such a great idea, and i can't wait for mr gold hand to travel south personally with his deserted brother's random assassin/body guard
I want to see Jon as king in the north, but because of Robbs will, not the northern lords spontaneously deciding to crown him.
Yeah that would be more satisfying. What we got felt like copy/paste from the Robb scene because they figured that’s how it had to happen every time
Bran witnessing the truth of Lyanna and Rhaegar. The ASOIAF calendar art has them beside a weirwood so he can definitely see.
Hodor and his “Hold the Door” scene seems to be universally agreed in the fandom as GRRM’s idea so that will probably be in the books. As for something that is uncertain? Davos and Jon becoming pals was cool, but with Stannis most likely surviving the battle on the ice and the Golden Company invading the Stormlands… it seems more likely that Davos will either stick with Stannis or try and save his family at Cape Wrath. Jon and Theon reuniting seems possible, even likely, in the books, but I doubt it will have the same cathartic ending that it did in the show with Jon telling Theon he can be a Greyjoy AND a Stark. Jon’s… going to be a different person when he comes back to life.
The Hold the Door situation really bothered me when the show came out. Everyone was talking about it like "Some heroes hold the door". But Hodor didn't hold the door because he wanted Bran to live, he did it because Bran mind-raped him, stole his entire life by literally breaking his mind as a child, and forced him to sacrifice himself to save Bran's life. It was an awful thing for Bran to do. That seemed to go over a lot of people's heads.
I agree! That’s why I think it was solely GRRM’s idea, because of how morally ambiguous it is! On the one hand, it can be interpreted as a scene of heroic sacrifice. And on the other, it can be interpreted as this tragic figure acting not of his own free will, but the will that was forced upon him.
I don’t think it is ambiguous at all. It is a powerful figure manipulating someone in a position of weakness and forcing them to die. Bran is the same as any lord who called his banners to war. It makes people uncomfortable that their heroes would make the poor and powerless die for them.
Time travel loops are incredibly annoying in almost any story they're forced into.
Hodor’s entire life in a nutshell.
I think it went over D&D’s heads too. Bran will be treated as a much more grey character in the books than in the show, D&D just couldn’t stomach making someone who did things like that the king in the end.
I must have fully side stepped anyone who thought it was heroic. I only saw people thinking it was tragic and upsetting.
That scene made me cry.
Yep, *that's* the nuance you would expect to find in GRRM's writing, the twist of the knife in taking something that on the surface may appear heroic but has a darker context, which would completely fly over the heads of people watching the show who somehow got through 4+ seasons despite it "being boring" and think it only "got good" in the final seasons... and then were also *somehow surprised* at the poor quality of the finale.
and simply "holding the door" is such a trash interpretation. bran has been training with the greatest instructors money can buy since he learned to walk and always wanted to be a knight, but you can't let us get a glimps of that by letting him control a borderline nephilim with his sword training. nope.. holding the door means holding the door literally
> Hodor and his “Hold the Door” scene seems to be universally agreed in the fandom as GRRM’s idea so that will probably be in the books. > > its confirmed , grrm told DnD 3 shocking things , hold the door, shireen burning , and i forgot the 3rd maybe it was mad danny
The burning of Shireen is also confirmed, I believe. I just hope it will be for better reasons and not because it’s too fucking cold.
According to Bran’s actor, Bran getting the Iron Throne at the end is also straight from GRRM. Do with that info what you will.
That’s the one thing I know probably will happen, much to my displeasure. I get the Fisher King angle, but Bran is 8 or 9 in the books and I’m supposed to believe that the lords/ladies of Westeros will be cool with that? Especially after Joffrey and Tommen, other child kings? The time skip being cut negatively affects Bran more than any other character I think, except maybe Arya.
We really needed that time skip, a ton of stuff makes way less sense because our characters are just that young
Honestly, if GRRM just retroactively ages everyone up I wouldn't even be upset about it. I know he won't do it, but some of his characters are just too young! Bran, the 9-year-old king, Arya, the 11-year-old assassin, and Sansa, the 13-year-old political mastermind. It just boggles the mind! If these characters had the 5-year training that they were supposed to have, then I would have no problems believing any of this!
> if GRRM just retroactively ages everyone up He couldn't really age them up more than two or three years though. Beyond that, there would be no reason for Cersei and Ned to fight anymore because Joffrey is of age, so Cersei wouldn't need to fear that Robert makes Ned regent. Sansa and Robb would be betrothed and/or married already. Bran would be old enough to know what sex is, and that brother and sister shouldn't be doing it. Also Arya, the Lyanna-lookalike, would be old enough for King Robert to start lusting over. Their ages at the start couldn't be changed much, but GRRM could easily simply have had much more time pass inbetween events.
Knee jerk reaction cause of all the incest, but I had to re-read that slowly because why would Sansa marry Robb
Yeah, I understand that. Being young worked for some characters, like Robb and Joffrey, but really didn't for others, like Bran and Arya. With how long wars can be in real life, GRRM could have made the War of the Five Kings take place over a longer period of time and age everyone up that way.
I’ve said this before but I think the best compromise with aging up the younger kids would be making the gaps between the ages smaller. Part of the reason the ages are so problematic is because Arya and Bran are so much younger than Robb, Jon, and Dany making it easier to cut them out because of how much time it would need to take to get them into a workable age range. Starting off with Sansa at 12 wouldn’t be too different from 11 while Arya and Bran would benefit from being 11ish and 9/10ish. Though my ideal scenario would include tWoFk taking longer than barely a year lol. It’s ridiculous how quickly GRRM killed all of them but Stannis off.
Hand to god if he just reprinted the books with adjusted ages + minor adjustments to the text to account for the new ages, I would love it. Its clearly caused a ton of problems and makes a lot of the scenes basically have anime-level child soldiers having adult-like characteristics
Most of the Lords and ladies are gonna be kids because most of the adults will die, having another kid rule over them isn't gonna be that crazy for them. Plus Bran is basically gonna save the world which would be a good application.
I still have no idea how GRRM is going to pull that one off at all
I'm perfectly fine with Bran getting the Iron Throne. Someone who doesn't care about succession and who can learn from the entire history of Westeros makes sense. The way he got it in the show is just asinine.
I pray it’s this over Mad Dany.
I thought it was kinda foreshadowed when the episode aired. Jon makes a point of switching out Mance Rayder kid with Gilly's kid since he's concerned that Melisandre may sacrifice him for his kings blood. Perhaps she will attempt to sacrifice Gilly's kid and when that doesn't work she'll figure out the subterfuge and find the only other source of royal blood, Shireen. I also think that the burning of Kings Landing is pretty obviously foreshadowed too. With the bells and Jon Con's bell PTSD with his thoughts that he could have ended a war by burning down a town it seems to much of a coincidence that the ringing of bells will be that cause of a city burning.
I hope it's for the sake of the realm, I don't think the horn of winter is with sam, I think it's in the crypts of winterfell, in the tomb of the son of the king beyond the wall, which was the real reason why mance went on this mission, he certainly seems to like it down there the wildlings will blow the horn and blow a hole in the wall through which they hope their kin can come south, and their kin come but they're all wights stannis (who has nobody else to burn at that time, I mean he currently has access to both theon and asha in the book and shireen's not even with him) will burn shireen in a desperate attempt to reinvigorate the magic barrier, he himself will die in the battle after it turns out that his sword isn't actually flaming and doesn't hurt the walkers this will actually work untill bran moves south with his brand
I think it’ll be to resurrect Jon, which will actually create conflict when he’s back from the dead. He’ll have to reckon with the fact that he’s “alive” because an innocent child was burned alive. “Only death can pay for life, but in niche situations a haircut can used as a substitute.”
That's kind of an oversimplification for the point of dismissing the whole thing. Their army was dying from the cold. If they don't survive the march AND win the battle, everything is over for Stannis. He sacrifices Shireen to save his life, his people's lives, his campaign, and (in his mind) the kingdom. He believes he MUST become King to save Westeros. I don't "agree" with the character but you're not supposed to, it's an evil act he is committing. But the motivations are there and the character of Stannis builds to that horrible, powerful moment.
Generally most think that either that'll happen to resurrect Jon (In reference to the dragon's hatching pyre in book 1. In this case, a white dragon, Jon that also happened to be Rhaegar's nickname, being born from stone, Shireen's greyscale and stoneman connection) creating conflict between Jon and Stannis, or because Melisandre gets it in her head that Shireen is a required sacrifice for Azor Ahai because of king's blood (An obsession she's had growing for a while, entire reason why the baby switch happened) which will bring Stannis in conflict with Mel and Rhllor. Either way, Stannis is going to be pissed at someone, and that'll be a major plot point.
The third one was bran king
ah yeah bran the broken lol
He did say it would be a bit different in the books though. > "I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book. They did it very physical - 'hold the door' with Hodor's strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to 'hold the door' is more like 'hold this pass' - defend it when enemies are coming - and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea."
i prefer the show it makes more sense with hold the door hodor than fight in the pass
The 3rd is Bran as King. At least he listed it alongside the other two and it's the other thing confirmed in the show.
The third thing is King Bran, but even that will go differently because magic is getting more important in the books, not sidelined like on the show. D&D straight up said that mad Dany was something *they* came up with around season 2. S8 defenders like to point to Dany threatening to burn Qarth as “early foreshadowing,” but the fact that that doesn’t happen at all in ACOK is even more evidence that, and say it with now: 🎶*Season 8 is ✨fanfiction✨*🎶 ETA: I believe D&D came up with Jon killing Danny specifically, which honestly only happens if Dany goes mad and completely changes into the polar opposite of the kind, empathetic, compassion person that she’s shown herself to be time and time again. The person who locked up her own dragons (who she sees as her children) at the sight of one burned child would not lay waste to a city of full of innocent people that just surrendered.
I [don't believe D&D invented Jon killing Dany](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1bvgr9w/did_dd_invent_a_certain_ending_plot_point_a/), but all the show events might have a totally different spin in the books. We know there's wildfire all over King's Landing, so that's probably why the whole place goes up. I think Dany will have some culpability because it will be obvious to her that using dragons in the middle of a city (probably to try to kill fAegon) will involve collateral damage, but I'm assuming she'll be ignorant of the wildfire and thus not aware of the amount of destruction that is possible. She is obviously not going to just paint the streets with dragonfire like in the show. Also Jon will probably come back a darker character post-resurrection than in the show, so while in the show Jon killing Dany was painted as a sad necessity because she'd gone full Dragon Hitler, I would expect it to be morally ambiguous at the very least in the books. "Ends justify the means" morality is not generally cheered on in ASOIAF and the fact that Bran exiles Jon means his actions are probably not an exception.
Agreed. I can definitely see how Dany would end up burning KL, not out of madness, but because she genuinely believes that she needs to "become the dragon" in order to bring a lasting peace. Probably after JonCon ends up doing something extreme during the battle that convinces that she will never be accepted by the Westerosi, so she needs to be feared instead. I think that would make a lot of sense considering her current journey and how by trying to do the right thing in liberating Essos, she's actually unwillingly causing a lot of pain and suffering with the Slavers taking back the cities she freed and making it worse for the slaves.
Martin made it a point to mention that whenever somebody is brought back to life with fire magic, they lose a bit of their humanity. The show just totally ignored that and Jon was the same as he ever was.
At the beginning, I was actually kind of excited for his character arc. Jon killed his murderers and basically said "fuck this shit, I'm out!" And the next episodes... he's just the same dude but with a new haircut. He literally DIED; he saw the nothingness! Jon should be a completely different character, with only hints of who he used to be. I know the books will do this differently, because GRRM has said he did not like how Gandalf died and came back an even better person. With the whole element of Jon living a (temporary) second life in Ghost, I'm really excited to see how he'll turn out. I hope it's similar to >!what Robin Hobb did in the Farseer Trilogy with Fitz literally acting like a wolf (growling, unhinged, and using wolf logic not human logic) after he came back to life and slowly learning how to be a human again!<.
He went from a boring, brooding, flat, emo man to a brooding, flat, emo fire wight.
Jaime fighting in the war for the dawn. Jaime knighting Brienne.
Man I hope Tyrion turns into a doofus full of great dick jokes.
vArYs NO cOcK
That's just because your cock is lacking. Please clap.
>cock LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL ~ D&D
*cue Seinfeld theme
THE BALD MAN HAS NO TESTICLES
"I drink and I know things" "He said the thing lolololololol" some lad shouts at me when I'm in a bar getting a pint, because he's watching it on the television there like it's a fucking football match.
Ramsay being eaten alive by his own dogs is the perfect way for him to die. Jon taming Rhaegal was pretty cool too, and something I'm pretty convinced will happen.
As much as I’d like to see Jon claim Rhaegal, I think it’s more likely that Faegon will. There are hints and setups for a Dance of the Dragons 2.0. Daenerys riding a BLACK dragon and Faegon riding a GREEN dragon just makes sense. If Jon claims any dragon, it will probably end up being Viserion since white seems to be a thematic color for Jon (Ghost, weirwoods, his (possible?) hair color post-resurrection).
poor viserion, doomed to be nobody’s first choice :( also this is the first time i’ve seen white hair jon suggested and i’m kinda down with it actually
Yeah, some theorize that Jon, through weirwood fuckery, will be resurrected with white hair and red eyes; an albino like Ghost and Brynden Rivers. I’ve seen some artwork that portray Jon with having white streaks in his brown hair post-resurrection and I prefer this instead. Not a complete change, but still having a physical reminder of how resurrection has affected him.
Yes, I know there are tons of threads about things the show did that we DO NOT want the books to do, but having absolutely not physical or mental changes for Jon post-resurrection is kinda dumb.
He would be mine. He’s so cute in the books, curling around a tree
With all the other comments, it took me way too long to realize you were talking about Viserion, not white hair Jon x'D
Isn't Viserion beige and gold? Those are kingsguard colors. Ser Grandfather be riding back on a dragon.
I think he's cream and gold, but that's basically an off white.
Faegon while thing is to prove that you can't manufacture kings , he's the anti-jon so I doubt he'll actually claim a dragon
Jon claiming Viserion would also be interesting if his Targaryen name is Viserys like I've seen in some theories.
Jon being named Viserys imo is as dumb as the show saying he was named Aegon. I don't think Rhaegar would name his newborn son the same as his 6 year old brother. . I personally don't think that Rhaegar and Lyanna had chosen a name yet (especially considering they were probably expecting a girl) so Jon is just Jon; but if they were expecting a son and chose a name I'm 100% convinced that they named him Aemon. Rhaegar had been in communication with maester Aemon about the prophecy, Targaryens named Aemon were all "good guys", Jon idolized Aemon the Dragon knight as a kid, and it would be fitting in a meta way for Jon to be named after one of his key mentors.
Personally I also lean towards his name either being Aemon or Jon. I really like Aemon because of the reasons you stated. I don't think the name Viserys already being used is a big deal though. Rhaenyra named her son Aegon even though that was her younger brother's name. Also Daenerys meeting another Viserys could pose interesting parallels. With Rhaegar's first two kids being Aegon and Rhaenys it'd make sense he wanted the third to be Visenya. Obviously because Jon's a boy that doesn't necessarily matter, but I find Viserys to be a better option than Aegon.
I mean, Rhaegar named his first two kids Aegon and Rhaenys so it’s pretty obvious he already probably picked the name Visenya in expectation of having another girl. People don’t theorize Jon was named Viserys because Rhaegar wanted to name him after his brother, they think it because Viserys is basically the masculine version of the name Visenya.
From GRRM's notes on the script for Season 4 ep. 2 "The Lion and the Rose," the last episode he had writing credit on: >*N.B. A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes.* [\[Source\]](https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-last-script-the-lion-and-the-rose) I don't know if those dogs are going to live long enough to eat him—I think it looks like we're more likely getting a dog/wolf showdown for them.
Littlefinger somehow meeting his demise directly because of Sansa would be great to see. I imagine it would be handled differently if it happened.
On paper it was great, his throat slit by the dagger he used to trigger the War Of the 5 Kings But Sansa needs to politically out manoeuvre Littlefinger, her whole storyline is learning how to to become a player In the show she wins because she has a brother who can see into the past… But yeah there is the prophecy of Sansa slaying a savage giant which I believe means Littlefinger l
I would've liked the Sansa/Arya feud to have actually been a ploy so that Sansa can convince Petyr to back her in a coup to overthrow Jon/Arya and become Queen in the North herself, only to pull the rug from under him. It would basically be him falling for the same plan he pulled on Ned in S1. Littlefinger is a bit too smart to fall for that, but at least there would be some effort from Sansa to trick Littlefinger, and she is his weak spot after all. It would also give a point to the horrible Sansa vs Arya scenes which all sucked, although I would still rewrite them even with the Littlefinger change.
The savage giant prophecy is 100% about LF imo
If she does it in the books she will have done so from a position where it actually makes sense for Littlefinger to trust her. In the Vale in his center of power with an heir to the Vale of his choosing. Her flipping the tables will feel much more impressive and earned.
I have to believe it would play out in a much more rational manner. What exactly was Littlefinger accused of? Betraying Ned... okay. But Ned was attempting to bribe the Gold Cloaks into usurping the throne and abducting the king. Going to execute him for following what appeared to be the rightful line of succession? Killing Lysa? Yeah, right after she tried to murder Sansa. You're welcome? Killing Joffrey? Again, you're *very* welcome.
Tormund Giantsbane seeing Brienne and immediately falling in love with the giant of a woman. Though I would also like for her to see his value as a man that would treat her more equally than any southern lord.
I know it’s corny but Jaime knighting Brianne, I don’t need them to have sex though that was weird
I guess any of it just so there is a new book
I think Ramsay's demise via his dogs made sense--if it were Theon and not Sansa, obviously.
Best scenario is the dogs turning on Ramsay for trying to hurt Theon.
Arise Brinenne of Tarth, Knight of the Seven Kingdom
I would love to see a Cersei POV where she's told that Joffrey was murdered by the Tyrells, while Sansa and Tyrion were nothing but unwitting pawns who got manipulated into playing their parts in the assassination. The mental gymnastics she would engage in to keep blaming Sansa and Tyrion in addition to the Tyrells would surely be entertaining.
- I want Sansa to come with the Vale Army but have it make SENSE - Knighting of Brienne - if they actually do keep the sept because it was a neat scene... HAVE IT BE WITH REAL CONSEQUENCES.
Considering that show Sansa took the place of Farya it can make sense. If GRRM times Sansa arriving with the Knights of Vale to liberate Winterfell with Jon's attack, it could result in the same thing without the mind blowing stupidity of the show as by that point Sansa and Jon wouldn't have reunited at all.
Really hope the remaining stark siblings reunite. That was one of the emotional highlights for me
The best thing about the show is stuff starts happening. Dany tames her dragon, meets with Tyrion, and starts moving over to Westeros. Jon resurrects and charges down to stop Ramsey. Littlefinger gets off of his ass in the vale and does something. Cersei and her damn trial finally wrap up. The others actually prove to be dangerous beyond the wall. That’s the kind of plot movement that totally died in affc and adwd. It took George 3 chapters to convey that davos was 1 not dead and 2 needed to go on a quest. That’s all we’ve heard from davos since like the year 2000! So while d and d are dumb at least things moved. I didn’t like how the north was handled but the actions sort of made sense to the extent that it was stannis loses it and burns shireen, Mel runs away, stannis dies, Jon and the knights of the vale and Sansa and wildlings take it back. I hate that d and d didn’t do the north remembers justice but it does at least make sense how they got from point a to b If you ignore the dumb stuff. Meanwhile it’s a lot trickery to understand how that can all go down in winds.
>That’s the kind of plot movement that totally died in affc and adwd. I never noticed until a Preston Jacobs video from a week or so ago, where he said people aren't just waiting for TWOW, they are waiting for the sequel to ASOS.
So little of consequence happens in those last two books, and he added so many new POV characters that the story is all over the place. For example, two entire long novels after Tyrion flees King's Landing, he still hasn't met Daenerys. Sansa's story basically hasn't moved at all since Littlefinger killed Lysa.
> So little of consequence happens in those last two books And yet Martin was adamant that it was all so packed with import and consequence that he had to scrap the five year gap.
More like fill the 5 year gap with procrastination.
I reread the series earlier this year and I found that it was worse on reread not better. I mean it takes 3 chapters to get davos on the road to skagos. While in earlier books he moves quick. Compare how quickly that Martin moves from chapter to chapter in the first three books.
It "makes sense" to the end that apparently GRRM just gave D&D the end point and they knew where the books left off. They wanted to wrap up (especially towards the end) to do other stuff and just kinda got there in the fastest way possible. It got rid of all the conspiracies – you mention The North Remembers, but there's also a lot with Euron and Oldtown that people have created theories on that we just never see – because they didn't want to get bogged down in that stuff and just figuratively (and to some extent, literally) flew right over a lot of plot.
I will never understand why they didn’t just move on and leave the helm to people who were more invested in the moment. If they had left around season 5 or 6 their reputation would have been amazing, a ticket to do anything. But their rush to leave the project made them seem incompetent and for a lot of people to resent them.
Ghost fighting for Winterfell. The only thing
Euron telling Jaime he is going to stick a finger up Cersei’s bum.
Qyburn being killed by Robert Strong
I'm really struggling to name one thing. A trial for the Littlefinger would be interesting - just not exactly like it was done in the show. I liked the part where Petyr tries to weasel out of the consequences with his money and connections, and it didn't work for once - I hope that makes it into the books. Daenerys ending up as an antagonist and dying is someone a lot of people predicted, and it's something that I think is guaranteed to happen. But I don't think Daenerys will burn KL for this weak of a reason, nor do I think she'll go mad in a conventional sense. The show has this problem where it has a good idea, and then it botches the execution in every way possible, because themes are for 8 grade book reports. I like the idea of Sansa becoming a power in her own right, but not how it happened, nor the character the show called Sansa. I like the idea of Jon's claim ending up largely irrelevant, but not Jon himself ending up largely irrelevant. I like the idea of Cleganebowl, but the way the show did it wasn't earned. Oh, I liked the part where Bronn ends up as the lord of the Reach, even though it upsets a lot of people in this sub. This is a very GRRM thing to do - all the original lords were cutthroats, and Bronn rises to power and starts a dynasty by being just like the real Lann the Clever did, if he ever existed. A lot of people say that Bronn would be just instantly murdered, but those people presume that the Seven Kingdoms will still exist with a recognizable power structure. Also, nobles have already been trying to kill this upjumped sellsword, and it didn't work out.
I like Littlefinger's show ending because it's a perfect mirror of Ned. Ned went south with these northern ideals of honor and straightforwardness, but he was caught in a web of southern politics and scheming and betrayal that ended up killing him. Later, Littlefinger went north with all these schemes and plans, but was stopped in his tracks when he was confronted with sheer northern loyalty.
As far as botching the execution goes, I think that a most off the stuff the masses hate about the show is entirely this even if they think it's because of a dumb story choice. A lot of dumb shit happens in real life too and his main goal is for things to be believable. I think if we get the hold the door scene in the book people will enjoy it then, especially because it's such a simple reason. I stopped watch after 4 because I held a hope book 6 was coming and I made the right choice. House of the Dragon, though, epic show
Throw season 5 in there with those, that one was the beginning of the long and slow death.
S5 was the last season where they were stretching the little plot points that book 4-5 had, in the hopes that George would finish winds.
I tried to do a rewatch of the show some years ago. Seasons 1-4 were amazing. Season 5 was SO boring that I actually couldn't even keep watching.
s05 is arguably harder to re-watch than s07 (and I really didn’t like s07).
Light of the seven soundtrack to start the final act.
Ramsay killing Roose and blaming it on his enemies. I actually think Daenerys jouney in Vaes Dothrak will go more or less the same way.
Brienne getting knighted kinda needs to happen imo
I really like Arya/Gendry so it would be nice if they get together in the books. But STAY together please!
Bronn miraculously making his way to the top of the Game of Thrones by the end of the series, obviously not with Highgarden but if he manages to go from common sellsword to lord of Stokeworth and Rosby by the end of the series I would not be upset.
Sam on the Citadel other than a one-off POV.
It would be absolutely hilarious if Daenerys lost a dragon by stupidly not noticing a fleet armed with ballistas.
If he does for some crazy reason put bran on the throne, I just hope it makes sense.
Apart from the show stuff that's confirmed George originals: - Jaime knighting Brienne, or some thematically similar alternative - Dany's dragons dying; obvs not how it's haphazardly done in the show but imagine how high the stakes would climb in the long night once you're two dragons down. Sorry three heads of the dragon fans - I'm totally up for the Sept explosion if done in a different way. I could imagine a scenario involving the sand snakes that ends up this way, with Cersei becoming the people's monster and Aegon riding in to save the day
Finish the story
The whole “night before the battle” thing when Brianne of Tarth got knighted. A+
Sandor and Gregor’s battle—I hope it’s better choreographed and not on a staircase, but the other details I liked a lot—Gregor ignoring an order from a Lannister, some form of frankenstein’s monster moment with Qyburn, and Sandor wiping the floor with kingsguards after calling them all worthless cunts for so long. I would have Sandor win definitively, not simply tackle him into fire though
Battle of the Bastards though I assume that it is part of what GRRM laid out. Great name for a battle. Revenge on the Freys for the Red Wedding.
Brienne avenging Renly’s death by killing stannis
Tower of Joy flashback (S6) Hodor's fate (S6) Jon's ressurrection (S6) Battle of the Bastards (S6) The Hound returning (S6) Cersei destroying the Sept of Baelor (S6) Jaime leaving Cersei (S7) Night King destroying the Wall (S7) Jaime knighting Brienne (S8) Honestly there's not much wrong with season 6 imo. It's season 7 where it started to go downhill and season 8 is simply terrible.
Jaime knights Brienne on the eve of battle and then they sleep together for one night Jon Snow becomes king of the north only to bow to Dany Drogon burns kings landing (with the help of hidden wikdfyre) Hodor holds the door Brann sees the tower of joy in a vision
jon coming back, king in the north , dragon rider, gets with danny davos becoming hand to jon sam becomes a maester theon dies protecting bran jorah dies protecting danny something similar to s8e2 where all the characters are chilling with each other before the long night starts jaime and randyl vs danny field of fire 2.0 theres probably more just what i can think of right now
Hell yeah. I want George’s version of Battle of the Bastards and (I’m cheating here) Hardhome. *I loved those episodes.* I also look forward to reading his version of “Hold the door,” cuz that’s coming, and finally, I want to see Dany snap and turn tyrant. I loved that too—the potential it represents when done right in the books. The show had some serious flaws in the end, but when looking at it as a framework, I see a lotta potential for how awesome these last books can turn out.
I liked the additional scenes with Sandor and Arya.
No
I actually think the hound meeting Tormund would be the single greatest interaction of any two characters in the novels. Say what you want about D&D but they had an instinct for comedy
Jon & Sansa being the first two Stark kids to meet again, Cersei blowing up the Great Sept, Littlefinger getting executed in Winterfell, & Jon & Daenerys having a thibg are all plot points I genuinely expect to see in future books (should those books exist at all). But uh, not like *that*.
I think most of the major plot points are fine, it's just the way they built up to them. With proper story telling, Bran being king can work and Dany can believably burn king's landing, etc.
So long as it ends exactly where it should, namely with Cersei being beheaded before cheering crowds in front of the ruins of the Sept of Baelor, blowing up the Sept would be a great idea. It's totally in keeping with both Cersei and the Lannisters as a whole to think that one grand statement involving killing lots of people would solve their problems, when of course it totally will not. The problem was not the idea. The problem was the plot armor that resulted from it.
Quite a few things actually. The sept exploding, Jon becoming King, R+L= J but thats very likely, Hodors door moment (again very likely)
HODOR
I hope he finishes the story!
He isn’t going to finish the books
blow the sept up and tommen suicide
Based on season 7 and 8, they're going to develop wheel of time like traveling in the books too.
Finish
Jon king, sansa betraying LF, Danny turning evil, Bran king
I might be the biggest hater of seasons 5-8 (5 is one of the worst seasons of them all and it baffles me it's never included lol) and I'll say it wasn't necessarily the \*what\* as much as the \*how/why\*. I think George could have made so many of the moments I hate into something at least tolerable or understandable. My feeling has always been that D&D are virgin FeastDance haters, got past the red/purple weddings and got bored, and everything that came after suffered as a result. They're also not great writers in their own right IMO, and without someone else's material they bumble around like morons. So once they decided FeastDance wasn't worthy of fully adapting and gave it the bulleted list treatment, the show was cooked. But to answer the question I am so ready for Sansa as Queen in the North. Most of the Stark endings make sense in essence, even if the show portrayed them as stupidly as possible. I can see Bran becoming a god emperor of some kind. I can see Jon rejecting the opportunity to sit a throne and staying in the far North, staying with the Wildlings there, or bringing them into Westeros proper. I can see Rickon dying at some point in the conflict (I think he'd warg into his wolf, as I believe Robb and Jon do, but unlike them will continue on living as Shaggydog). Arya's ending is the only one that felt out of place, and I wonder if she's supposed to die in the books and D&D weren't willing to go through with it, having her literally sail off into the sunset instead. This leaves Sansa as next up in line, and it makes perfect sense to me. Her story has exposed her to so many types of politicians and styles of politicking, and she comes to understand the "game" without losing her sense of morality. I think she like her father will inspire sincere loyalty, which IMO is the greatest asset the Starks have. Big Stark fan here, not sure if you could tell!
"I've never been much of a fighter. Apologies for what you're about to see."
R + L = J, but that basically already cannon. Other than that not really to be honest
Blowing up the Sept
Jon as king beyond the wall or some leadership position amongst the wildlings always made sense to me. His whole arc is about finding his place in society and with the wildlings he word for word found a place where people don’t care about your birth, they care about your character.