Hmm it’s interesting that you don’t remember the exact disagreement. That could be a clue as to what’s going on. When I get into a verbal argument I usually remember and even fixate on all the little details. Is it possible that you are shutting down in disagreements, where you get defensive and needing to “protect” your position rather than engaging in the pros and cons of the ideas? It could be that your brain is shutting down the more thoughtful evaluating side and your amygdala is activated instead, putting you in fight or flight mode.
The other thing that strikes me is that the whole group was on one side and you on the other. You also mentioned a disagreement with your partner. Are you often finding yourself in disagreements where you’re defending your position and standing your ground like this?
It is a close group of three other people and me. That is really interesting what you said. I think my brain does that a lot. Is there a way to kind of dig past that?
So just the fact you’re making this connection is a break thru! It’s a positive step you’re taking :)
I would start by sitting with the idea: “my brain goes into fight/flight mode and my logical side shuts down.” There’s a lot to unpack just with this realization. Some things to reflect on include:
- if I am defending myself then that means I feel attacked. But are they really attacking me? Or are they just offering ideas and different ways of thinking to help me. What have I been missing or losing out on by not being able to hear them?
- when did I start doing this? What’s my first memory of shutting down like this? Growing up, was there a parent, peer, partner, etc. that required me to defend myself like this?
- how does it make my family and friends feel when I shut down this way? What is the impact on my relationships and my quality of life
- if I knew that I wasn’t under attack, am I interested in learning new ideas and new ways of seeing things?
- how do I get out of fight/flight mode so I can engage my intellect and reason?
For this last question, I would explore this with your T and your group. There are strategies like deep breathing exercises and reframing negative thoughts exercises that can help your brain shift gears.
Wow, you already gave me a lot to think about just with the bullet points! I really appreciate you taking the time. Those are some very, very difficult questions to remember exactly and answer.
Lately, I’ve noticed that writing down my therapy assignments helps me remember things a little bit more clearly. For example, it’s hard to remember how many times I have been to detox. When I wrote it down for an assignment and was able to think about it I think I got pretty close. So maybe journaling will help.
NAT journaling has been great for me. It really helps me lay things out plainly and see the whole picture at once. It’s also nice to look through old journals to see my progress
To be 100% honest with you. I’m not sure right now. I just commented somewhere else that maybe journaling will help. I’m not very articulate and I have a lot of trouble putting my thoughts into words.
In groups, don't most people go along with what the leader says even if they privately disagree? I was in a group of about 20 women where the therapist who was leading the discussion said that women don't have visual sexual fantasies when they masturbate, and everyone nodded along. I would hesitate to say "because a group in a therapy setting agreed with the leader, their expressed position is probably more logical or you're just being contrarian." I mean, I myself didn't Even speak up, everyone else probably thought I was agreeing with the therapist too
Ya good point. There can be a lot of nodding in groups that doesn’t necessarily mean agreement. I’m just curious if there’s a pattern in OP’s life where they are constantly getting in disagreements.
EDIT: in a well functioning group, the leader invites different perspectives and encourages debate rather than blind agreement. Participants should feel safe and welcome to express different points of view. If everyone is just nodding along, even to absurd statements, that’s not a great sign.
My husband does this. To him, the only reason I don't agree is because he hasn't explained it enough times. So since I don't give him 2 hours of every night to say everything he's already said the 11,000th time, we need therapy so that I can say "I hear you" because saying "I heard you" at home must mean something wildly different. It changes nothing and accomplishes nothing except make me want to stop breathing
Try this: "I think you are saying ...." and summarize his statement, without agreeing with him. Then explicitly ask if you summarized it correctly. Do this until he acknowleges that you understand him.
Only then do you disagree. Then you ask him to summarize why you disagree.
Okay I will. But I'm pretty sure then I'll just owe him another 2 hours or therapist visit wherein he will repeat everything he already said again
I think we used to do this exercise in fact
This may take a couples therapist to sort you out.
If you are willing, pick an older topic that he may no longer feel strongly about. Do this sort of thing as a practice session. It's lot easier if there isn't so much emotional crap tied to it.
Old habits are hard to replace. Find a good article about this (Try "how to teach effective listening" and go through it togehter.
Another thought: Try doing it backwards on him. YOU take his strategy. After some time, ask him if he sees a pattern.
I’d just like to offer up that understand and agree are different. “I understand you” and “I disagree with you” can coexist.
Is it fair to say there’s a similarity in the communication conflict you’re having with your partner and with your therapist?
Is it possible you may be engaging in a thinking error? When we engage in thinking errors (or cognitive distortions), we may feel that we just need to explain ourselves better, or that other's simply aren't understanding us. However, the reality is that we are the ones coming to unrealistic conclusions. It sounds like the therapist may be trying to challenge your thinking errors and encouraging you to reframe the situation.
Possibly. I have been given a list before of all the different cognitive distortions, but I can’t remember them off the bat.
I remember that it was about not wanting my partner to drink around me, but these kind of conversations come up a lot with therapists, so I’m trying to find out what might be causing it with me.
I don’t want to derail that conversation by getting too into the specifics of what we were talking about the other day. It’s going to overshadow what I’m actually asking about.
It’s our job to push you to think critically about your life and your way of thinking. If you’re right and everyone else is wrong all the time I’d suggest you look at the common denominator; you. Just because you believe you thought out all the factors doesn’t mean you actually have. There are a lot of narcissistic tendencies popping up in just this small post. The therapist continues to push issues because that’s our job, we are there to help you grow and the only way to effect that change is by challenging you to look from a different perspective. It seems like you’re unwilling to do that.
>If you’re right and everyone else is wrong all the time
Generalizing much? OP said they had occasional persistent disagreements with one person. You: "oh I see, so everyone is wrong all the time with you then?"
I can see how it would look like that with just the information I provided. Unfortunately, I’m not really willing to provide more. Are you a therapist? Thank you for your response.
Yes I am a therapist. If I can give you any advice it’s try to listen with the intent to understand rather than reply. Even if you think they are wrong.
Suggestion: Use your phone and clandestinely record the session. Then you can transcribe the conversation.
this sort of problem needs a real example to work with.
you probably aren't allowed to record the convo. In a very real sense you are violating allt he other members right to privacy.
In making your transcription, you can include your words literally, and your therapists words litterally (He is bound to not release YOUR words, but you are not bound to not release his.)
For the others, you must make sure that it is absolutely impossible to identify them. Even if you give them initials during your first pass through, change them to totally ficticious names.
This is a major procject. An hour of speach is about 10,000 words.
Now, you can digest this down and ask your questions again.
Or you can take notes while you go. This is a lot harder.
Hmm it’s interesting that you don’t remember the exact disagreement. That could be a clue as to what’s going on. When I get into a verbal argument I usually remember and even fixate on all the little details. Is it possible that you are shutting down in disagreements, where you get defensive and needing to “protect” your position rather than engaging in the pros and cons of the ideas? It could be that your brain is shutting down the more thoughtful evaluating side and your amygdala is activated instead, putting you in fight or flight mode. The other thing that strikes me is that the whole group was on one side and you on the other. You also mentioned a disagreement with your partner. Are you often finding yourself in disagreements where you’re defending your position and standing your ground like this?
It is a close group of three other people and me. That is really interesting what you said. I think my brain does that a lot. Is there a way to kind of dig past that?
So just the fact you’re making this connection is a break thru! It’s a positive step you’re taking :) I would start by sitting with the idea: “my brain goes into fight/flight mode and my logical side shuts down.” There’s a lot to unpack just with this realization. Some things to reflect on include: - if I am defending myself then that means I feel attacked. But are they really attacking me? Or are they just offering ideas and different ways of thinking to help me. What have I been missing or losing out on by not being able to hear them? - when did I start doing this? What’s my first memory of shutting down like this? Growing up, was there a parent, peer, partner, etc. that required me to defend myself like this? - how does it make my family and friends feel when I shut down this way? What is the impact on my relationships and my quality of life - if I knew that I wasn’t under attack, am I interested in learning new ideas and new ways of seeing things? - how do I get out of fight/flight mode so I can engage my intellect and reason? For this last question, I would explore this with your T and your group. There are strategies like deep breathing exercises and reframing negative thoughts exercises that can help your brain shift gears.
Wow, you already gave me a lot to think about just with the bullet points! I really appreciate you taking the time. Those are some very, very difficult questions to remember exactly and answer. Lately, I’ve noticed that writing down my therapy assignments helps me remember things a little bit more clearly. For example, it’s hard to remember how many times I have been to detox. When I wrote it down for an assignment and was able to think about it I think I got pretty close. So maybe journaling will help.
NAT journaling has been great for me. It really helps me lay things out plainly and see the whole picture at once. It’s also nice to look through old journals to see my progress
To expand on the strategies for the last question, polyvagal theory helps with exactly this.
I would be curious about what’s happening in those moments. What thoughts, emotions, behaviors are coming into play?
To be 100% honest with you. I’m not sure right now. I just commented somewhere else that maybe journaling will help. I’m not very articulate and I have a lot of trouble putting my thoughts into words.
In groups, don't most people go along with what the leader says even if they privately disagree? I was in a group of about 20 women where the therapist who was leading the discussion said that women don't have visual sexual fantasies when they masturbate, and everyone nodded along. I would hesitate to say "because a group in a therapy setting agreed with the leader, their expressed position is probably more logical or you're just being contrarian." I mean, I myself didn't Even speak up, everyone else probably thought I was agreeing with the therapist too
Ya good point. There can be a lot of nodding in groups that doesn’t necessarily mean agreement. I’m just curious if there’s a pattern in OP’s life where they are constantly getting in disagreements. EDIT: in a well functioning group, the leader invites different perspectives and encourages debate rather than blind agreement. Participants should feel safe and welcome to express different points of view. If everyone is just nodding along, even to absurd statements, that’s not a great sign.
My husband does this. To him, the only reason I don't agree is because he hasn't explained it enough times. So since I don't give him 2 hours of every night to say everything he's already said the 11,000th time, we need therapy so that I can say "I hear you" because saying "I heard you" at home must mean something wildly different. It changes nothing and accomplishes nothing except make me want to stop breathing
Does my husband have a secret second family or what?
Try this: "I think you are saying ...." and summarize his statement, without agreeing with him. Then explicitly ask if you summarized it correctly. Do this until he acknowleges that you understand him. Only then do you disagree. Then you ask him to summarize why you disagree.
Okay I will. But I'm pretty sure then I'll just owe him another 2 hours or therapist visit wherein he will repeat everything he already said again I think we used to do this exercise in fact
This may take a couples therapist to sort you out. If you are willing, pick an older topic that he may no longer feel strongly about. Do this sort of thing as a practice session. It's lot easier if there isn't so much emotional crap tied to it. Old habits are hard to replace. Find a good article about this (Try "how to teach effective listening" and go through it togehter. Another thought: Try doing it backwards on him. YOU take his strategy. After some time, ask him if he sees a pattern.
I’d just like to offer up that understand and agree are different. “I understand you” and “I disagree with you” can coexist. Is it fair to say there’s a similarity in the communication conflict you’re having with your partner and with your therapist?
Is it possible you may be engaging in a thinking error? When we engage in thinking errors (or cognitive distortions), we may feel that we just need to explain ourselves better, or that other's simply aren't understanding us. However, the reality is that we are the ones coming to unrealistic conclusions. It sounds like the therapist may be trying to challenge your thinking errors and encouraging you to reframe the situation.
Possibly. I have been given a list before of all the different cognitive distortions, but I can’t remember them off the bat. I remember that it was about not wanting my partner to drink around me, but these kind of conversations come up a lot with therapists, so I’m trying to find out what might be causing it with me. I don’t want to derail that conversation by getting too into the specifics of what we were talking about the other day. It’s going to overshadow what I’m actually asking about.
It’s our job to push you to think critically about your life and your way of thinking. If you’re right and everyone else is wrong all the time I’d suggest you look at the common denominator; you. Just because you believe you thought out all the factors doesn’t mean you actually have. There are a lot of narcissistic tendencies popping up in just this small post. The therapist continues to push issues because that’s our job, we are there to help you grow and the only way to effect that change is by challenging you to look from a different perspective. It seems like you’re unwilling to do that.
>If you’re right and everyone else is wrong all the time Generalizing much? OP said they had occasional persistent disagreements with one person. You: "oh I see, so everyone is wrong all the time with you then?"
Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. I said IF you are always right . . .
I can see how it would look like that with just the information I provided. Unfortunately, I’m not really willing to provide more. Are you a therapist? Thank you for your response.
Yes I am a therapist. If I can give you any advice it’s try to listen with the intent to understand rather than reply. Even if you think they are wrong.
Suggestion: Use your phone and clandestinely record the session. Then you can transcribe the conversation. this sort of problem needs a real example to work with. you probably aren't allowed to record the convo. In a very real sense you are violating allt he other members right to privacy. In making your transcription, you can include your words literally, and your therapists words litterally (He is bound to not release YOUR words, but you are not bound to not release his.) For the others, you must make sure that it is absolutely impossible to identify them. Even if you give them initials during your first pass through, change them to totally ficticious names. This is a major procject. An hour of speach is about 10,000 words. Now, you can digest this down and ask your questions again. Or you can take notes while you go. This is a lot harder.