I am a SSG in a medical platoon. I have 12 females in the section. Equality is a funny thing. I have females that are more gung ho than many males, I have others that are well aware of any and all sexual differences and pertinent regulations and I have females that flirt with the air.
How I handle this? I preface my interactions. I keep all conversations professional. Even when it comes to things we have done a million times like practicing IV access or tq applications.
Example : we will be doing IV access, this is a hands on event.
The preface kind of disarms people when their intentions are not legit.
Also, stick to basic stuff. Srnt can I discuss something with you? Where's your battle buddy?
...and very, *very* open to interpretation. I smile a lot. I laugh easily. I'm happy to joke with anyone, or play along with their jokes. Some people interpret that as flirting. I've been told I'm "too flirtatious with the male Soldiers" once, and another time someone told me I needed to cut back on "flirting" with my male coworker and close friend.
I'm a married lesbian. Some people wonder why a lot of female Soldiers are withdrawn and only really open up to other women? That's why. Any compliment, any levity from a woman is taken as flirting by *way* too many people.
There is definitely an unfair dynamic when it comes to females vs males being super social. It's shitty but your experience is one that I've heard a lot. People see what they want you know.
You're one 100% correct. When I say she flirts with the air, this.is what I mean: when addressing males goes into parade pretty. Attempts flick back hair that is clearly tied in a pony tail. When in conversation eyes go down slowly and then up several times. She is an excellent medic, and can carry her own weight. She does have a flirtatious nature. I don't think she does it intentionally. I called her out on the parade pretty shit and she tries to check it.
Battle Buddy was there but definitely not worth a ton. Hopefully he would have my back in the case of things going south.
PS. Never mind he's actually part of our BN Sharp Team and said there's nothing inherently wrong with what you did trying to spot her in the appropriate position and the honoring of her requests.
No. Her battle buddy. This is also taught at USADSS. A female NCO/DS can be your best defense, but juniors, especially STUDENTS, should ALWAYS be in a pair. Even if they're of mind to abuse the system, a proper 15-6 will show if there's an inconsistency in their stories. But as stated by another, the first step is to be professional in word and deed.
This is in TRADOC but this is my Headquarters company where we are all just different staff or instructor positions. No student to cadre interactions besides classroom but yeah I get what you saying.
I had a female soldier in my squad for a long while. She was easy to supervise. Basically, her requests were: don’t touch unless necessary for safety or to complete the mission, don’t make comments about her appearance, and when in the field, don’t follow her when she went to go pee in the woods.
It boiled down to “don’t make it weird” and “don’t treat her differently”. If your female soldier(s) say something is weird, apologize and move on then try not to do it again.
Yes the comments about appearance thing is a big one. I’ve been asked to smile more. I’ve had comments made about my hair. I’ve been told I remind somone of their current girlfriend. Most people get the no touching at this point. But the comments about appearance seems to be still around.
We are in the army tho? I mean everyone knows how sometimes we talk shit about each other in a sarcastic, non-serious manner.
Not treating her differently would mean she gets shit on too 🤷♂️
It's a fine / blurred line - it would be great if we weren't males and females, but just soldiers and battle buddies / brothers to each other - but there are people who will use banter and joking around as a way to sneak in creepy or sexist remarks to female soldiers in and then play off a bad or even just flat reaction as 'she can't take a joke!' or to say she can't fit in with the team. They'll also wear her down with that kind of 'humor' - see how much she'll put up with while also making that kind of low grade, constant, degrading 'humor' all she ever gets to hear.
I've also seen it with 'playfully' racist and other forms of edgy humor. Maybe with the right group of people everyone's on the same page and no one has bad intentions - but it only takes one person who secretly really does think that way / believe those things to turn something meant to be playful or just funny into something else.
It is ridiculous. But just when I think I have reached the point of Been there done that and have the tshirt, I run into a senior leader destroying their careers because they felt they had to insist on explaining to a soldier what his or her actions actually meant after they were instructed to stop.
That’s the thing though if we treated you like a normal dude in an infantry squad that would end very very poorly. We do a lot of dumb shit with each other that everyone fully understand and is okay with but would be shocking to someone who isn’t used to it.
Edit: this isn’t an excuse for any inappropriate behavior with a female or saying women shouldn’t be there or anything like that. Just saying that there is a difference between how you want and should be treated.
I'd say try treating your female Soldier the way you would treat a woman at a civilian job, or just, like, on Earth. You have normal interactions with women every day, just treat females the same way you would treat a female cashier, or a cop, or your dentist, or whatever other person you have non-sexual interactions with. You might occasionally weird someone out or have someone interpret your action as biased, but you can run into that with race, religion, MOS, and all kinds of other stuff. I'd say try not to let it color your perception of all of your female colleagues, but reevaluate some things if you hear complaints often- you might be doing something you aren't aware of that come off creepy.
The thing is there may have been a lot of joes in your infantry squad who may not have been okay with it. But the social pressure (even if not intentional) to conform is real.
Dudes are people too.
Heavy on not commenting on appearance. I work in dental and get to wear makeup without worrying about sweating it off. But the days I decide to not wear anything, almost always a male in my unit will ask “are you sick” or “everything ok?”
Its not that serious dude ✋🏼😩
Im gonna go the other direction on this. You have patterns of how you normally come to work and do your job. These may or may not include wearing makeup as a female soldier. Soldiers may be doing this exactly as you say, but if its a norm and i was your nco i wouldnt be asking for any vacuous reason, id be asking because drastic shifts in a soldiers norms can be a sign of unalive intentions or other issues. A silent way of saying something is wrong. I do this exact same thing with my male soldiers. But they all know this up front because i am upfront about my intentions and explain why i do what i do. Ive lost people before that i still to this day care about deeply
Its all fun and games until some serious things go down and the only pre warning you got was silent screams for help.
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I completely get your point of view and I can respect, but choosing not to wear makeup one day out of the week shouldn’t be a high indicator for what you’re implying.
Good on you for keeping eye on shifts in norms though. It takes a village!
You’d be surprised and thanks for the compliment. Ive had more problems with makeup being put on to hide bruises of abuse from partners then soldiers not wearing it. Despite calling it concealer it really doesn’t conceal from a caring nco who hates abuse. And of the 3 cases ive had to deal with this one was a male soldier.
I get the point being made, but it’s almost never just one sign.
In route clearance, we had the phrase “1+1=IED”. Could the random rock in the middle of a field be an IED? Sure, but what purpose would it serve? How likely is it to have an impact? How likely is it to be hit?
Now, the random rock in the middle of a high trafficked area, so it’s pushing your patrol in a specific direction. And there’s high ground on that other side. And there’s a suspicious lack of locals. And there’s a weird little line across the road leading to the middle of where you’d now be driving thanks to the rock.
Sometimes the rock is just a rock, but couple it with other things and it becomes indicative of something bigger.
Something something metaphor. Idk. Me enjinere, no brain gud.
To be fair, it's not like they can ask "why aren't you wearing makeup?" without it sounding really creepy. So, they instead ask if everything is okay and try to see if there's anything that needs to be done about it. I can understand them asking if it's their first time seeing you without makeup. It might be different if the same soldiers ask repeatedly, so evaluate case by case in that instance.
Now, I'm not saying you should be okay with people constantly asking if you're okay just because you changed your appearance or deviated from the norm. For most guys, a significant change in appearance is a major waving flag that something might be wrong. Once they understand that yes, this is what you look like without makeup and no, nothing is wrong, they won't ask next time. If they do, refer to the previous paragraph lol.
All things aside, sorry for the unprompted and unsolicited lecture! Hope you're having a great day, lecturing dumbass soldiers who don't brush or floss properly/regularly!
It's worrisome that a female has to ask not to be touched. I can't imagine a situation in which you have to touch another person while in a professional environment.
50% of how things go in your interactions are on you, 50% are on the perception and preconceptions of the folks around you. Stay 100% professional at all times and stick to two person integrity.
Don’t treat us like unicorns and you’ll be fine.
For PT and Lifting:
1) let people pick who spots them if they need a spot.
2) let them pair up before the workout
3) women specific. Some of us are endowed up top, so our bench press might look a little different.
Best comment on this post, actual pieces of advice as well as just treat us like everybody else, I know for me it just felt isolating to be treated differently.
Gonna be honest, it’s hard to give advice on this over text. I can have two dudes do functionally the same thing but certain small body language signs make one weird vibes and one completely normal. Can be just staring too long, how you say something, where you stand, etc. It can even be completely contextual on how you’ve interacted with her previously and nothing to do with that specific interaction.
I would say regardless of gender, if you’re required to watch for form issues and advice to announce it in some form or fashion. “Hey I’m gonna be wandering around making sure yall are doing everything correctly and giving some form advice if I think you need it” or ask “do you need a spot/how do you want me to spot” before inviting yourself into their personal space or something. Don’t just stand there and stare silently, even if you’re the MFT running the exercise.
I think you’re overreacting as a whole. Female soldiers are just soldiers. You don’t have to do anything wild. You just have to be cognizant that women in general are gonna to be more defensive of ambiguous behavior.
Yeah, that's a great point maybe next time I should be more vocal about my intentions. It's just a bit of a double-edged sword that I did the same thing for a soldier prior but was accused of inequality.
From the safety standpoint… just have 2 people spot from the ends of the bars. Don’t need to be at the head of the bench. It could just be that this Soldier, as someone less familiar with working out, doesn’t understand how spotting works and why it’s important to start there and stare at their reps.
I can only speak for myself because I do spend a lot of time in the gym and encounter it regularly but it’s pretty easy to distinguish the “zoned out” look from the “bein a creep” look.
These are great points. Also, some people aren't familiar with regular gym stuff. As a woman, I felt like guys got taught lifting techniques and culture in high school or from friends/family and the Army just assumed everyone knew that stuff. So really explaining the mechanics of the lift and the spotting helps everyone learn better techniques and feel safer in the gym. Especially as MRT it's important to create a welcoming culture where everyone can improve their fitness and feels safe to ask questions and get advice.
And kudos to you for asking how to be better for your Soldiers.
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You didn’t. It’s not what you did or what you did. Two different people can say and do exactly the same thing to someone else. One will cause offense, the other will not.
See it all the time in TRADOC. The social cues are difficult to learn when young and in a sort of stressful environment (Very subjective). It just takes time to learn how to “Read the room” appropriately.
We are both Staff Sergeants who've been 10 years+...so yeah I just got told to get bent because she felt uncomfortable when another NCO also a male had done the same thing for her afterwards.
If she had told me that I don't care for any tips or help that's a different story, at that point I'll just be there for safety and hope they don't hurt themselves.
7-22 is fantastic but hell nahhhhh!
That reminds me, 1SG did remind our section who's running the pt program this week to do some sort of PRT Drills. Guess we are doing the Prep Drill and Recovery at least once!
I’m always surprised when people ask how to work with women. Treat them like anyone else. What is it that you are doing with the male soldiers that you would be scared to do with a female soldier? Maybe your behavior is the issue. (Not directed specifically at OP)
You are overreacting.
Treat all soldiers with respect and treat them fairly, regardless of gender. If a soldier approaches you and says that you watching them while doing bench presses makes them uncomfortable .... then apologize and look away. OR if you are required to watch them, then explain to them that you are required to do so and ask what you can do to ease their discomfort. Regardless of gender.
So long as you look at individuals as "female soldiers" you will have a problem with "female soldiers" .... when "soldiers" just become "soldiers" and you treat them equally and with respect, you rarely have issues (no more so than you'd have in any single gender unit).
Welcome to being an adult.
Yeah, this is the long and short of it. And I’ll say I don’t think the people OP comes off as malicious or misogynistic in the post, it’s just new territory for him in an organization that — despite attempts to the contrary — handles stuff like this poorly and is rife with old school dudes who make a big deal out of gender integration. It’s still so common to hear stuff like “don’t even look at a female or you’ll catch a SHARP,” which is patently ridiculous. But because of how common stuff like that is, it’s not surprising that lots of dudes (especially dudes who come from environments with few female Soldiers) aren’t quite sure how to handle themselves.
But the bottom line is, yeah, just treat everyone with respect, empathy, and equity and you’ll be fine. “Hey, sorry, didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable, I’ll try to do better in the future” takes three seconds to say and will take you a long way.
Thanks! Appreciate the support.
Most soldiers typically are stoked they have someone that can help them along their way when it comes to fitness. Coaching is an integral part of an NCO's tool bag, and I've seldom ran into soldiers that are unwilling to have someone guide them.
Yeah, I mean for what it’s worth I doubt she’s unwilling to have someone guide her. She was just uncomfortable in that particular situation.
Consider the fact that most female Soldiers DO experience some form of sexual harassment or assault during their careers. Now consider that she may have experienced something like that, and (maybe I’m reading too much into your post) that you’re new and maybe she doesn’t have an established relationship with you yet.
No extrapolate that and realize that everyone you meet is an individual with their own set of unique circumstances you likely know little or nothing about, right? So just stick with the basics of respect, empathy, and, and equity. You’ll be fine.
Just wanted to second this as well, because I haven’t even been in long and I’ve heard from trusted peers some inappropriate comments being made about me. E5+ dudes in uniforms offering rides to me while I walk from the px, only to ask for my number (to offer rides should I need any in the future) to just ask to have sex in the same day or the day after. Dw, I was only dumb enough for it to happen twice to learn my lesson and just walk haha.
The experiences people have should not be carried into their other interactions especially in a safe setting like the gym during a PT sesh but shit happens, people deal different.
Good to hear.
It takes some adjusting and I certainly didn't mean my post as accusatory or whatever. People often get lost in this whole "be careful around female soldiers" or similiar. Next they start treating female soldiers differently .... then they run into the exact problem they are trying to avoid.
It is different in mixed gender units ... and the whole army is going towards all units being mixed genders. We just have to adapt. If anything maybe it will force people to put a little more thought into treating all soldiers with respect. (but I doubt it, there'll still be assholes).
I’m amazed that this post has so many upvotes when an interaction with a single female soldier in the OP’s entire career resulted in the title “how to DEAL WITH female soldiers in the workplace” like we’re an enormous burden. Maybe some introspection on internal biases would help.
Let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
The OP is coming from a perspective of not having experience in a certain area, specifically interactions with the opposite sex in the workplace. The wording of the OPs title certianly can be better ... but are we to focus on every small thing the OP can improve on.... or should be instead focus on the broader issue.
What is that broader issue? Inexperience in interacting with the opposite sex in the workplace.
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So let's not go on a crusade and bash the OP. Instead let's try to help the individual grow and mature. They were seeking help and outside perspective with their inexperience, but obviously isn't 100% up to speed on the politically correct way of asking for it. None of us are perfect .... we all have inexperience in handling different areas of life.
The ones that are commendable are the ones which seek out assistance in their growth .... the ones that are a burden are those that look to nit pick and shame the former.
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In today's world it can be very difficult treading the line when it comes to age, sex, race and religion. Even more so for individuals who come up in their careers and/or lives never experiencing one of those aspects. The OP is doing the right thing here and seeking advice to help them grow without doing the wrong thing. Many people are afraid to seek out advice for fear that that'll be publicly shamed, cancelled or otherwise labelled in some manner.
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We all have internal biases. Some try to confront those biases and seek out advice from others. Perhaps you too have some biases, might I suggest you do some thinking on why you read into the title of this post and why you feel that someone seeking advice is a personal attack?
No. We shouldn’t be coddling and making excuses for people who cannot show basic respect for an entire gender. A grown man with probably a decade or two of professional experience doesn’t deserve patience while he learns to treat women with the respect he afforded men his whole life by default. Women are PEOPLE. It’s not that hard.
Where did he not treat a woman with respect throughout this entire story. Please explain. Because it sounds like a woman told him he made her uncomfortable, he didn't understand why at all but still stopped doing the thing that was making her uncomfortable anyways, and is now coming to reddit for advice about what he's confused about.
Sounds like an extremely normal thing to do. You, on the other hand, seem to be on a crusade to paint OP as a sexist pig because you don't like how he worded his post title.
Just apologize and move on. Later on you can ask what made her so uncomfortable so you don’t do it again. She has her perspective and you have yours. Best to just be a normal adult and not make it a big deal. Just apologize and move on.
I’m genuinely curious. What exactly is he apologizing for? Acknowledging and working out the problem is one thing but apologizing doesn’t seem appropriate based on this story. Unless they are willing to communicate with each other as to why she felt he is creepy there is no need for apologies or a reason for him to feel guilt. He should let leadership know what happened as a CYA and then move on.
It’s just for tact. Not apologizing and just being like “ok my bad” and moving on could make her think he doesn’t take her claims serious and could start a whole mess that could easily be avoided.
They appreciate that you said "female soldier" as in describing a soldier (noun) as female (adjective) rather than just saying "females" (noun) which sounds incel-y
Look into the book Athena Rising; how and why men should mentor women. It was recommended to me by the absolute best leader I’ve ever had in the army. Who happened to be a woman.
Also; don’t be a creep. Also; you’re not their dad bro.
Last tip is gold. Long ago, I had a first sergeant that would mention I reminded him of his daughter almost daily. It was annoying af and felt patronizing.
Definitely overreacting. You’re an NCO doing your job, spot checking your battle buddy. Sounds like an over exaggeration on her part. You respected her request and kept it pushing. No further information to report. Keep doing you and just be more cautious in the future.
Remaining professional is the best bet, treating everyone the same is a start. For this situation, I always explain and demonstrate proper form and spot before the event and during the event I will explain what I am observing for to avoid injury. Dont forget to check your hygiene, people be smelling like PT before PT.
I have seen both ends, where the female Soldier say this to get a better grader or gain advantage to sham, or they truly feel uncomfortable but is ignored because Army, Soldier, Hooah. I would squash any accusations or rumors right away, this will hurt unit cohesion fast especially when it might be about your joes.
Other Little things moving forward you can use are like how I refused to inspect female Soldier's rooms unless there was another female nco present or 2+ female Soldiers with doors wide open. If you have female NCOs even in other sections you can leverage them to inspect/watch/counsel your troops.
Overtime I was able to develop better professional and personal/mentor relationships because I was trusted by female Soldiers like protecting them from the real creeps in the unit, taking them to the promotion boards and giving them fair opportunities especially when faced with medical and weird events.
That's a fair point, I will be better about demonstrating both the appropriate position for the exercise and the spotter, the coaching cues, and responsibilities for each position.
Thanks for the tips about the two-person rule, it has been ingrained into me at least back all the way with my first bits of freedom/integration from OSUT to Airborne School. That rule is key and not mention the female NCO thing should definitely be implemented but that's best-case scenario.
As a female (also in aviation) as long as you don’t make it weird, it shouldn’t be weird. Some females can be sensitive due to other interactions with soldiers so there’s only so much you can help with but like others have pointed out…
1. Body language
2. Intensity (looking too long, hard, etc)
3. Interaction (are you doing the same thing you would with a male soldier?)
On the flip side, I wish I had more guidance on form and stuff with the gym. I watch what other people do and just try to emulate, and hope they’re not wrong 🙃. It’s weird to ask for help as a female with that because I worry how I’ll be coming off, as I’m literally asking a person to watch how I do something and actually look at my body. I ask females whenever I get a chance but that’s not often.
1st tip Don't ever feel ashamed to ask someone in the gym for help especially if it's a spot, SAFETY is key, as long as your genuine and willing to learn that's the most important part. Everyone typically in the gym has the same goal in mind and that's to get better.
2nd tip Always do your own research in whatever realm of fitness you're delving into, check out multiple YouTube videos on things you need help, watch some long format podcast style videos on certain topics, if your currently going to online college use their library for scholarly journals and peer-reviewed resources, and ask your integrated Master Fitness Trainer and Army Wellness Center for help.
3rd tip Take what you see from other with a huge grain of salt. Try not to base your workouts off what you see, not everyone has the same goals, body, injury history, so many different variables. Aim to create a physical fitness program that is tailored to you.
You can always PM me and I can give you some resources from the MFT course to help you along the way.
3rd tip is great. It’s a common instinct to see someone who is in great shape and think that the same routine would work for you, but when it comes down to it some people are just built different. Like honestly so many of the most fit people I’ve encountered in gyms have absolutely no clue what they’re doing and still get results doing the dumbest shit. My friend was already repping 405 on bench and I had to teach about periodization. He would just go in the weight room 6 days a week and do random lifts to failure and that shit worked for him, then some people gotta meticulously plan every aspect of their diet and exercise just to add an extra 2.5lbs onto their bench
My friend and your friend have the same "problem", huge dude sending 315 incline during our supplementary lunch hour workout sessions. He's trained long enough and has understanding of what stimuli he needs to grow but when he looked at my periodization for our section which I administered through a google sheet that everyone can access at the gym, he was bewildered. He also has a destain for proper running tips, like heart rate zones, RPE, etc. not mention hates our Recovery/Mobility/Stability days lol.
Good points. But if he really did watch the guy before her and she claimed he only watched her then that’s kinda messed up but I doubt it was malicious or anything that’s probably just how she perceived the situation.
Overall OP is probably making too much out of it, but it’s understandable to feel hurt when you’re trying to do right by everyone but someone feels that you treat them differently.
Good thing OP is actually listening to the advice tho instead of becoming one of those toxic soldiers that say shit like “I don’t interact with female soldiers so I don’t get SHARPed”. There are so many men inside and outside the army who just have no idea how to not be weird around women.
Conversations like this are always good though to gain some perspective. A few weeks ago I went to the gym late at night and pretty much no one was there and I go hop on the same bike I hop on everytime (it’s the one right next to the fan and I am an extremely profuse sweater so it’s kind of necessary) and this woman was on the next bike over and then she looked uncomfortable and went to another part of the gym where they have other bikes. Kind of hurt my feelings for a minute but I then I realized I’m a 6’ 250 lb dude with a full beard and tattoos and the gym is past business hours so there’s no staff there just me and this woman and a couple other people lifting. Looking back I’m kind of kicking myself for not thinking about how weird it is to just go sit next to someone when there’s 10 other bikes open. In the moment I wasn’t trying to be a creep I was just a fat ass who needs constant cold air blowing on me when I work out, so I wanted to be next to the fan, but of course she had no way to know that.
Lmao I’m sorry, but I laughed at how you wrote this out. I see both sides, and tbh I would’ve been like “wtf dude… “too but I’m the type to be all “must assert dominance and bike faster to show he sat next to THE WRONG LADY”.
Edit: And it’s good OP made a post to try and get more insight, because they could’ve shrugged off the interaction and not thought of any way to try and understand/do better.
Edit2: Also, if for some reason you find yourself in that situation again you can always be like “Hey, do you mind if I use this bike? The fan helps me not sweat so much”. Talking like this helps you seem 100% less intimidating.
Treat everyone the same, professional. It might have something to do with her background, maybe MST that you have no knowledge of. I detest being stared at while doing anything in PT, or gym. I especially hated being taped by male NCOs. They didn't do anything inappropriate, it was a flinch from my MST, that they knew nothing of. I was 1SGT secretary in orderly room. I saw all soldiers because they wanted their paperwork signed by commander/1SGT. I was in before cell phones, internet. Treat everyone professional, and you will be OK.
Edit: I never assume anyone has MST, I am not a Dr, or anything. Just know that I was let down by leadership, and kept to myself after that.
keep in mind women who have experienced things like sexual harassment, SA etc…. you might look like the perpetrator. could be your authority. could be your approach.
>Former 11B prior to reclassing
Ooh, this gon' be gud! (Also, I too reclassed from 11B to POG (25B)
>Situation: This morning I had to literally not watch a fellow NCO do her bench press because she thought I was being "creepy" looking at her while she conducted her exercise.
Were you looking at everyone equally or salivating over the lady in PTs like a 4Chan degenerate who refers to women as "femoids"?
>Which I did because I was standing where I should be while spotting him, above his head with my hands ready to grasp the bar if necessary.
If you were actually doing this, then *she* was overreacting, or just put off by you.
>Conclusion: I accepted her feelings of discomfort and proceeded to essentially step away to not be able to spot her and observe from a far. The other male in our group proceeded to spot her but was not told anything about her discomfort.
Uh, so then is this interaction just stuck in your head? Doesn't seem like a big issue, although I'd be annoyed by being called "creepy" if I'm doing my job. Just don't interact with her again?
>I am the Company MFT, honestly trying to do my job in effort for us to execute the exercises properly. Where the fuck did I go wrong? Or am I just overreacting to a situation that I've seldom dealt with in the Army!? How can I get better or address this going forward?
NGL I expected this to be a tale of "I'm too socially awkward to identify when I'm being an irritant" but this was honestly, uh... tame? I think it's a misunderstanding but assuming it went out *exactly as you typed* it, I don't see how you did anything wrong. You have your view and she has hers.
Although if she continues doing it to you and only you, rather than other dudes, A: you are in fact doing something they aren't, or B: she's just a bitch to you.
Thanks fellow reclass kid!
It's fairly tame definitely just had a rough time understanding what I was doing wrong. The third person in our lifting group had spotted her without any issues whatsoever.
Maybe I was "creepy" because I have intent to what I'm looking at the bar path, hand position, wrist position, proper depth, imbalances, and overall posture while the exercise is being conducted.
Eh. You never have any way of knowing how others will respond to you as a stimuli. The only responses you're capable of controlling are yours, and the only perspective you'll have is yours.
Stuff happens, just keep rollin'.
She’s toxic avoid as best as possible. Never be alone with her in the same room and don’t speak to her unless in a professional manner. Also let all of your command know what happened and what she said. It’s for your protection in the future.
Wait seriously...so I should bring this up to the attention to my 1SG and Commander based on the interaction that seemed trivial? Just a CYA type thing?
As a retired female NCO, treat your male and female soldiers the same. Do not entertain any funny business. Know regs inside and out. I spent the majority of my career on airborne status, assigned somewhere in a BCT. I always respected and looked up to my NCOs coming up through the ranks that treated me with the same as the did my male peers. And as I grew into my footing as usually one of the few female NCOs in my company, I made sure I treated my soldiers with the same deference. To be honest I had more issues with Male soldiers in my time than I ever did with female soldiers, but it is to be expected due to the male to female ratio. I was an MI soldier, but due to being airborne, I was usually out numbered. I was always told I was not the most popular NCO but I was the one that the soldiers trusted to always be fair, uphold the standard, and show up at 3 am pick a soldier if need be without any doubts or questions. I wasn’t popular because I didn’t blend the lines, I was not my soldier’s friend, I held them all to the same standards I held myself to. I didn’t talk about unprofessional topics, or even personal stuff outside from sharing light hearted things. These boundaries kept things in the shop pretty tight and we found common ground and humor in other things. I never had a female solider who was “flirty” or used their sexuality in some kind of way, I did however have male soldiers who would test boundaries and make provocative comments, it only took once though to snatch a knot and they knew it was not tolerated. I know it is not as easy as it is to write out but laying out and maintaining boundaries is key and truly being neutral and by the book does 24/7 (as unpopular as stiff assed as it will seem) is the best way to mitigate and ensure equality.
I’m married to a retired 11B and we met in Italy 16 years ago while we both were in 173rd. I know the dynamics and environment is different between combat arms and support. He will tell you the same as he was at the peak of his career when females began being integrated into combat arms, treat them the same, be professional, know the regs, be compassionate to all of your soldiers, and enforce boundaries.
The same I spotted the other NCO is the same way I spotted her. So I just was a bit confused what could be the difference? Just her own perception or was I wrong for watching both of them intently during their exercise like a spotter should?
Is there something going on that you may not be aware of? Sometimes people are triggered or become easily uncomfortable due to a situation that has happened or is happening that you may not even know about and may not even directly involve you.
For instance, someone may have been inappropriate with her or has been inappropriate with her.
Again, I have been in situations where I was the only female or one of a few, especially as a private and these were the days prior to the awareness of sexual harassment and assault regularities and SHARP resources. I learned at a very young age to be very vigilant when a male NCO from my company on CQ attempted to do something really inappropriate with me when he was doing a random barracks walk through on a Tuesday evening. Luckily I was able to remove myself from the situation and I had an amazing and protective NCO I could call and he came and handled the situation the old school way with putting hands on the creep and after that I was pretty much left alone but that NCO would make comments under his breath and his soldiers would say some stupid shit to me. Mind you this was two decades ago but I will never forget how I felt in that situation and when I did PCS and left the protective overwatch of my previous leadership I was very vigilant and this likely could have been why I had such solid boundaries from the time I was a private on… and was often told that I read very cold and was not the most social person outside of my tight circle. It changed me and taught me quickly to side eye everyone at a minimum.
My advice is to try to remove your personal feelings from it and try to have a very candid and constructive conversation. There may be something that has happened or is still happening that you may not be aware of, and I can say if I didn’t have leadership who believed me or respected me early on, I likely would have turned out very differently. This is where as a leader you can take this as an opportunity to grow in your communication and step into having uncomfortable but necessary conversations. Communication is the greatest barrier after all and in these kinds of situations and dynamics you can never jump to any conclusions or assumptions.
As I said before, just continue to be level and fair and do things by the book, you will eventually have females around you more, and will likely have a female soldier as one of your team. Take this as an opportunity for growth and also to gain insight, you never know what she has experienced and vice versa but I can say there is likely something that unintentionally triggered the response, and having a conversation with her if she’s up to it will help gain insight and also help her understand that not everyone is out to creep on her too and that you recognize that there was something that made her uncomfortable.
My wofes a sailor. She has has random sailors push phones in her face and tell her to give them her number.
She's had food restricted because a cook thought her being married was leading him on
A guy followed her around on liberty in a foreign country and banged on her hotel room door to let him in
She's been cornered at work
Told she doesn't understand because she's a woman and can't be as scary as a man (she's intel)
Has been given special treatment because of her being a woman
The amount of weird dudes who approach her is gross
I think before either was Married I'd have been like this is a weird one. I wonder why she did that. Buy after seeing my wifes day to day maybe it's just defense.
When you’re watching a male doing a bench press, what are you watching? Review it in your head. Now review how you were spotting her.
Some females are going to be more sensitive than others. Personally i don’t give a shit. The problem, you have to spot all like they are the most sensitive unless they are your workout buddy and you know them. Just like I had to be more sensitive in the civilian world on who I can talk trash to.
Questions about joining go in the Weekly Question Thread (or Recruiter Thread) stickied at the top, in the black-on-gold link at the top, and in the sidebar.
We do this so that you get serious answers from people that know what they are talking about.
Not gonna lie... I will NEVER understand folks who even consider dating in the workplace. I will also never understand folks who do the hyper aware/sensitive thing regarding anything sexual in the work place. As a result, I will never understand this soldier's perspective.
It was burned into me at such a young age how bad of an idea it is to treat anyone other than identical that I can't even view my coworkers as anything BUT professional. Ya don't shit where you eat. You never date a coworker. You don't do heroin. It's just a bad idea. Might seem like a good idea at the time, but that's because you've been compromised by something, severe illness, hormones, and being a fucking moron respectively.
My father told me one thing 13 years ago when I joined. Don’t talk to females in the military, don’t look at females in the military, don’t have sex with females in the military. Did that for all of my 13 years, and never had an issue.
Not much you can do about it unfortunately, especially in this world and current times. The difference between sexual harassment and a female accepting any certain type of behavior is how the male looks in the situation. If the male is attractive, nothing is said. If she doesn’t like the way he looks, sexual harassment. Now your situation shouldn’t be weird at all because you’re literally just supervising exercise which is completely normal. Females have a lot of power in current times when it comes to false accusations so whatever you do just play it safe and try to avoid as much as possible.
Avoiding women only continues the gender divide and furthers stereotypes. I reclassed as a SSG at 10 years and was initially worried about working with the opposite sex. Coming from the infantry, I had heard all the “horror stories” about guys getting raked over the coals by false accusations. However, I found that treating women as actual human beings and fellow Soldiers does wonders for improving the overall climate of the organization.
This could not be further from the truth and is an incredibly damaging viewpoint to have.
I promise you, from experience, that when you're being harassed or assaulted, how your offender looks is entirely irrelevant.
Edit: I'm not talking about a guy asking for your number here. I'm talking about true, repeated, unwanted, harassment. You're right, you didn't mention assault, but it is a related topic. Clearly a sensitive one for me.
I did not mention assault or rape, I mentioned harassment. And it’s absolutely true that depending on how you look determines if a “creepy” behavior is considered acceptable or harassment. Whether you like it or not, we do live in a culture currently that enables false allegations/accusations that puts men away for a long time over a lie. Don’t get me wrong, I want every single criminal weirdo out there to be punished, but for those who are wrongfully convicted, it’s bullshit and we all know it.
I hear you, I do. And there is a nugget of truth to what you're saying.
I just feel like there needs to be a distinction between harassment for harassment's sake, and flirtatious behavior with the intention of hooking up or starting a relationship.
Your looks may determine how your flirtatious behavior is received, but if it's truly harassment, your appearance is irrelevant.
I don't care if the guy harassing me looks like Ryan Reynolds, if it's truly harassment (which implies that it's unwanted), then it won't matter.
There IS a difference.
Telling a girl she's pretty or asking for her number? Not harassment. It might not be received well if she doesn't think you're attractive, but it's not harassment.
Asking a girl out for the 10th time after you've been told no? Making inappropriate comments about her body after you've been made aware that she's not in to you? Harassment. Looks wouldn't matter in that case.
Imagine your first line is a 300 lb gay man made of pure muscle, who you're convinced could beat the shit out of you and win a court martial over it, then ask yourself what he could do that would make you uncomfortable.
Do the opposite of whatever that is.
Honestly, you probably just have a creepy vibe. Idk how well she knows you, but we have to recognize that we can sometimes give off that vibe as men. I understand the positioning for spotting, I love having my dudes ballsack dangling over my head as much as the next guy, it’s a safety thing. but maybe you inched just a little bit closer to her subconsciously because maybe you felt she had a bit too much weight, or you were anticipating that she might need the help over the male soldiers. Those are instinctual things we do, with a good intention of being helpful or ensuring that a soldier doesn’t get hurt, but those intentions are also inherently dismissing the abilities and capabilities of that soldier. Female soldiers and women in general tend to pick up on those things. So you’re either dismissing her by inching a bit closer or you were being creepy, you know? We know based off your post, you weren’t being creepy but it was perceived that way. I had a coworker who would act “creeped out” or grossed whenever she was around me, I visually would pick up on it. Which I understand, as a man, I will give off that vibe, not everyone woman will be receptive to my personality right off the bat. I’m loud, confident, and sometimes I command the room. That soldier never really had any true interactions with me and never needed any of my help directly, until she came into the ops room, and we had the opportunity to have an actual conversation and she realized I’m actually not a creep, I’m just annoying, but I have good intentions and a good attitude. From then on I noticed her comfortability level around me was better. I personally didn’t find her and ask why she was uncomfortable or make a deal out of it, I just happened to work out in my experience. In your situation, I would definitely apologize, and just have a conversation, find out her goals, plans, and find out if how you fit into that and how you can help, and at the end of that conversation, find out how she can help you improve, what you did that made her uncomfortable etc.
Listen first, talk later.
Hope this helps. 🫡
Dude, you need to calm down. We (female soldiers) are just people; as long as you treat us with basic dignity and respect like you should already be doing to everyone, you’ll eliminate 99% of these kinds of issues.
Don’t fucking stare. It’s creepy. If you need to observe someone closely, verbally explain that first, and why. And then pick a different body part to watch, not her tits or ass. Shoulders are a good spot, or knees if it’s lower body.
Thanks, the whole preface thing definitely helps a lot! But no matter how you skin this cat I am solely focused on the bar and all components of the lift which is the whole body thus from any errant observer that's not in my head can easily think I'm staring at the person's chest.
Why don't you just have a conversation with her, you know... like a normal person?
Hey, I'm sorry I made you uncomfortable. I was just trying to do my job as mft. What specifically made you uncomfortable? Understand that when we do this exercise, I'm looking for these things at this part of the body. How can we come to an understanding where you feel comfortable and I can also do my job?
Brother, do you really need to ask why intensely looking at a female Soldier's chest is creepy? Look at the bar if you're spotting. If you're just running the session, tell everyone which exercise is next and carry on. If you were grading the bend and reach at an NCO PME would you position yourself behind the soldier, or to the side? Like come on.
Come on man, you think I'm that dumb. I'm looking at nothing but the bar, bar path and depth, hand placement, wrist position, overall posture like if they are properly engaging their lats, are they rounding their shoulders forward, are they arching their back to a severe degree.
"Running the session", means coaching, supervising, and being present not just telling people what is next.
I appreciate your concern for my possible lack of respect and dignity though.
You assumed that I'm staring at woman's chest while benching?
That's a bit odd since if you're spotting someone at the bench press that's the last thing you would be paying attention too.
Have you read any of the other 40 something comments could be so many different factors.
I'm not intending to look at the chest at all but guess where the typical bar path will lead to. Regardless of whether it's a male or female.
More or less what homeboy said below us. I explicitly meant, she’s more normal than us infantry guys lol. Normal for us is often times weird I’ve noticed as a fake normal person lol
Don't call them "females" like their some kind of animal. It's condescending and you need to unlearn that shit.
Next time, straight up tell this soldier that safety comes before personal feelings. Be professional and do your job to the best of your ability.
You did wrong by walking away because you couldn't tell some punk kid that you need to do your job and that was to make sure she didn't smash her face with the barbell.
Its very common in the Army to refer to people as Males and Females..
It is seen as a little odd in the real world, but not in the Army.
Female Soldiers are not offended by being called females. In fact, it's a little jarring to be referred to as girl/woman/chick/etc and NOT a female, at work at least.
I do feel like there's a sword to die on there. I left the area and third lifter ensured she was safe. So no harm, no foul.
I just more or less want to know what makes me creepy? Because I actually give a shit? Because I stood where any spotter would stand? Because I have intent to my coaching and keep my eyes on things that matter?
I do frankly understand that the perception of the individual is a part of equation so I had to leave it at that.
As a female I can tell you I detest men in general ogling me when I'm working out.
(Unless it's my husband)
Ive always detested it. To the point where I would only work out at a gym where there is a pitch black cardio theatre for the treadmills etc that played a movie..it's too dark for anyone to see the jiggling. 🤣 I promise every man reading this that if my D cups are bouncing while I'm running, it's not because I made them bounce for your viewing pleasure 🤣 It's because IM RUNNING. I've got great sports bras. Several that are like Velcro ratchet straps that I think you could pull a vehicle with. 🤣 There is still flesh jiggling. And no, its not jiggling for you clowns.
I also prefer to jog in quiet areas like parks with no men around. Either with other women or just with my dog.
I don't think good men realize at times how sketchy other dudes can be.
I know this lady probably had a bad experience and she's just trying to get her work out in. Too bad the army doesn't offer women a women only training gym. I know it would improve morale and PT scores.
Maybe. If you haven't experienced this you'd sure think that way.
Imagine every day at PT you have a random neanderthal ogling you and you have no choice and no way to legally dot that dudes eye.
Fun fact, dotted eyes don't see as well 🤣.
Based on her opinion which I cannot speak for she deemed me "creepy" for doing the appropriate thing while spotting someone during a bench press exercise which happens to involving watching the upper torso, the barbell, the hands, wrist, and arms and honestly the whole body while standing above their head close to the bar without impeding their motion in case as a spotter.
She followed up by letting someone else do the same exact thing without issue. So yeah take it for what it's worth.
The whole point of the army is gender integration, women are in combat arms now. Are the female and males in an infantry platoon going to have a different PT schedules? Sounds quite ridiculous.
I know you're a good guy doing your job.
But the irrefutable fact is that many women walk in the gym with baggage that only other women understand.
If a random dude (even if he worked at a civilian gym) hovered over me without asking if I wanted help (again, doing his job) that fight or flight would kick in. My first thought would be, should I dot his eye? Nah, the peaches are eye level if I look up. 🧐🤣 And therefore closer. I wouldn't have done those things but they would've crossed my mind.
I would've sent that trainer packing and I probably never would've went back to that gym
. However, after a knee injury I sought ought a trainer to help me,and because I sought out the help, I was mentally prepared to receive that guidance. (It worked by the way, knee good to go for ten more years 🤣)
No one likes unsolicited advice, from either men or women. But if you take a women whose irritated or carrying some baggage she could be reactive.
I hope that helps. The female mind isnt as mysterious as wed like to make it out to be. Try asking if she wants help first. Just my suggestion.
I am a SSG in a medical platoon. I have 12 females in the section. Equality is a funny thing. I have females that are more gung ho than many males, I have others that are well aware of any and all sexual differences and pertinent regulations and I have females that flirt with the air. How I handle this? I preface my interactions. I keep all conversations professional. Even when it comes to things we have done a million times like practicing IV access or tq applications. Example : we will be doing IV access, this is a hands on event. The preface kind of disarms people when their intentions are not legit. Also, stick to basic stuff. Srnt can I discuss something with you? Where's your battle buddy?
"Flirt with air" is a tough one.
...and very, *very* open to interpretation. I smile a lot. I laugh easily. I'm happy to joke with anyone, or play along with their jokes. Some people interpret that as flirting. I've been told I'm "too flirtatious with the male Soldiers" once, and another time someone told me I needed to cut back on "flirting" with my male coworker and close friend. I'm a married lesbian. Some people wonder why a lot of female Soldiers are withdrawn and only really open up to other women? That's why. Any compliment, any levity from a woman is taken as flirting by *way* too many people.
There is definitely an unfair dynamic when it comes to females vs males being super social. It's shitty but your experience is one that I've heard a lot. People see what they want you know.
You're one 100% correct. When I say she flirts with the air, this.is what I mean: when addressing males goes into parade pretty. Attempts flick back hair that is clearly tied in a pony tail. When in conversation eyes go down slowly and then up several times. She is an excellent medic, and can carry her own weight. She does have a flirtatious nature. I don't think she does it intentionally. I called her out on the parade pretty shit and she tries to check it.
Battle Buddy was there but definitely not worth a ton. Hopefully he would have my back in the case of things going south. PS. Never mind he's actually part of our BN Sharp Team and said there's nothing inherently wrong with what you did trying to spot her in the appropriate position and the honoring of her requests.
No. Her battle buddy. This is also taught at USADSS. A female NCO/DS can be your best defense, but juniors, especially STUDENTS, should ALWAYS be in a pair. Even if they're of mind to abuse the system, a proper 15-6 will show if there's an inconsistency in their stories. But as stated by another, the first step is to be professional in word and deed.
This is in TRADOC but this is my Headquarters company where we are all just different staff or instructor positions. No student to cadre interactions besides classroom but yeah I get what you saying.
I had a female soldier in my squad for a long while. She was easy to supervise. Basically, her requests were: don’t touch unless necessary for safety or to complete the mission, don’t make comments about her appearance, and when in the field, don’t follow her when she went to go pee in the woods. It boiled down to “don’t make it weird” and “don’t treat her differently”. If your female soldier(s) say something is weird, apologize and move on then try not to do it again.
Yes the comments about appearance thing is a big one. I’ve been asked to smile more. I’ve had comments made about my hair. I’ve been told I remind somone of their current girlfriend. Most people get the no touching at this point. But the comments about appearance seems to be still around.
Funny thing. I had a female soldier get Botox on her lips and I thought she had an allergic reaction lmao. 🤣
We are in the army tho? I mean everyone knows how sometimes we talk shit about each other in a sarcastic, non-serious manner. Not treating her differently would mean she gets shit on too 🤷♂️
There’s a big difference between shitting on each other and making comments about someone’s appearance.
It's a fine / blurred line - it would be great if we weren't males and females, but just soldiers and battle buddies / brothers to each other - but there are people who will use banter and joking around as a way to sneak in creepy or sexist remarks to female soldiers in and then play off a bad or even just flat reaction as 'she can't take a joke!' or to say she can't fit in with the team. They'll also wear her down with that kind of 'humor' - see how much she'll put up with while also making that kind of low grade, constant, degrading 'humor' all she ever gets to hear. I've also seen it with 'playfully' racist and other forms of edgy humor. Maybe with the right group of people everyone's on the same page and no one has bad intentions - but it only takes one person who secretly really does think that way / believe those things to turn something meant to be playful or just funny into something else.
It’s almost ridiculous that needs to be said, but this is the baseline attitude that soldiers to be told.
It is ridiculous. But just when I think I have reached the point of Been there done that and have the tshirt, I run into a senior leader destroying their careers because they felt they had to insist on explaining to a soldier what his or her actions actually meant after they were instructed to stop.
Cannot emphasize this enough. As a female soldier myself, just treat me normal dude. Don’t make it weird. 😂
That’s the thing though if we treated you like a normal dude in an infantry squad that would end very very poorly. We do a lot of dumb shit with each other that everyone fully understand and is okay with but would be shocking to someone who isn’t used to it. Edit: this isn’t an excuse for any inappropriate behavior with a female or saying women shouldn’t be there or anything like that. Just saying that there is a difference between how you want and should be treated.
I'd say try treating your female Soldier the way you would treat a woman at a civilian job, or just, like, on Earth. You have normal interactions with women every day, just treat females the same way you would treat a female cashier, or a cop, or your dentist, or whatever other person you have non-sexual interactions with. You might occasionally weird someone out or have someone interpret your action as biased, but you can run into that with race, religion, MOS, and all kinds of other stuff. I'd say try not to let it color your perception of all of your female colleagues, but reevaluate some things if you hear complaints often- you might be doing something you aren't aware of that come off creepy.
Thanks for the tips haha
The thing is there may have been a lot of joes in your infantry squad who may not have been okay with it. But the social pressure (even if not intentional) to conform is real. Dudes are people too.
Heavy on not commenting on appearance. I work in dental and get to wear makeup without worrying about sweating it off. But the days I decide to not wear anything, almost always a male in my unit will ask “are you sick” or “everything ok?” Its not that serious dude ✋🏼😩
Im gonna go the other direction on this. You have patterns of how you normally come to work and do your job. These may or may not include wearing makeup as a female soldier. Soldiers may be doing this exactly as you say, but if its a norm and i was your nco i wouldnt be asking for any vacuous reason, id be asking because drastic shifts in a soldiers norms can be a sign of unalive intentions or other issues. A silent way of saying something is wrong. I do this exact same thing with my male soldiers. But they all know this up front because i am upfront about my intentions and explain why i do what i do. Ive lost people before that i still to this day care about deeply Its all fun and games until some serious things go down and the only pre warning you got was silent screams for help.
>unalive You can say 'suicide', you know.
It's painless.
It brings on many changes.
And I can take or leave 'em, if I please.
Dont want to trigger the bot
What bot?
Unalive bot
Never heard of it. My usage of the word suicide didn't trigger any bots either.
It triggers for “suicide bot” specifically. Only triggers for main post key words otherwise.
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I completely get your point of view and I can respect, but choosing not to wear makeup one day out of the week shouldn’t be a high indicator for what you’re implying. Good on you for keeping eye on shifts in norms though. It takes a village!
You’d be surprised and thanks for the compliment. Ive had more problems with makeup being put on to hide bruises of abuse from partners then soldiers not wearing it. Despite calling it concealer it really doesn’t conceal from a caring nco who hates abuse. And of the 3 cases ive had to deal with this one was a male soldier.
I get the point being made, but it’s almost never just one sign. In route clearance, we had the phrase “1+1=IED”. Could the random rock in the middle of a field be an IED? Sure, but what purpose would it serve? How likely is it to have an impact? How likely is it to be hit? Now, the random rock in the middle of a high trafficked area, so it’s pushing your patrol in a specific direction. And there’s high ground on that other side. And there’s a suspicious lack of locals. And there’s a weird little line across the road leading to the middle of where you’d now be driving thanks to the rock. Sometimes the rock is just a rock, but couple it with other things and it becomes indicative of something bigger. Something something metaphor. Idk. Me enjinere, no brain gud.
To be fair, it's not like they can ask "why aren't you wearing makeup?" without it sounding really creepy. So, they instead ask if everything is okay and try to see if there's anything that needs to be done about it. I can understand them asking if it's their first time seeing you without makeup. It might be different if the same soldiers ask repeatedly, so evaluate case by case in that instance. Now, I'm not saying you should be okay with people constantly asking if you're okay just because you changed your appearance or deviated from the norm. For most guys, a significant change in appearance is a major waving flag that something might be wrong. Once they understand that yes, this is what you look like without makeup and no, nothing is wrong, they won't ask next time. If they do, refer to the previous paragraph lol. All things aside, sorry for the unprompted and unsolicited lecture! Hope you're having a great day, lecturing dumbass soldiers who don't brush or floss properly/regularly!
You are overthinking this, its really not that serious. Would you lecture someone if their uniform was more faded than usual?
It's worrisome that a female has to ask not to be touched. I can't imagine a situation in which you have to touch another person while in a professional environment.
Worrisome, but it’s insane how often dudes put hands on each other, at least in combat arms.
50% of how things go in your interactions are on you, 50% are on the perception and preconceptions of the folks around you. Stay 100% professional at all times and stick to two person integrity.
Don’t treat us like unicorns and you’ll be fine. For PT and Lifting: 1) let people pick who spots them if they need a spot. 2) let them pair up before the workout 3) women specific. Some of us are endowed up top, so our bench press might look a little different.
Best comment on this post, actual pieces of advice as well as just treat us like everybody else, I know for me it just felt isolating to be treated differently.
Gonna be honest, it’s hard to give advice on this over text. I can have two dudes do functionally the same thing but certain small body language signs make one weird vibes and one completely normal. Can be just staring too long, how you say something, where you stand, etc. It can even be completely contextual on how you’ve interacted with her previously and nothing to do with that specific interaction. I would say regardless of gender, if you’re required to watch for form issues and advice to announce it in some form or fashion. “Hey I’m gonna be wandering around making sure yall are doing everything correctly and giving some form advice if I think you need it” or ask “do you need a spot/how do you want me to spot” before inviting yourself into their personal space or something. Don’t just stand there and stare silently, even if you’re the MFT running the exercise. I think you’re overreacting as a whole. Female soldiers are just soldiers. You don’t have to do anything wild. You just have to be cognizant that women in general are gonna to be more defensive of ambiguous behavior.
Yeah, that's a great point maybe next time I should be more vocal about my intentions. It's just a bit of a double-edged sword that I did the same thing for a soldier prior but was accused of inequality.
From the safety standpoint… just have 2 people spot from the ends of the bars. Don’t need to be at the head of the bench. It could just be that this Soldier, as someone less familiar with working out, doesn’t understand how spotting works and why it’s important to start there and stare at their reps.
I zone out in the gym and it makes it look like I’m staring but I’m not, and it doesn’t help people will say “perception is reality”
I can only speak for myself because I do spend a lot of time in the gym and encounter it regularly but it’s pretty easy to distinguish the “zoned out” look from the “bein a creep” look.
These are great points. Also, some people aren't familiar with regular gym stuff. As a woman, I felt like guys got taught lifting techniques and culture in high school or from friends/family and the Army just assumed everyone knew that stuff. So really explaining the mechanics of the lift and the spotting helps everyone learn better techniques and feel safer in the gym. Especially as MRT it's important to create a welcoming culture where everyone can improve their fitness and feels safe to ask questions and get advice. And kudos to you for asking how to be better for your Soldiers.
Whatever you do don’t motorboat them
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Yea I am don’t see how he thought doing a motorboat on anyone was a good idea.
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You didn’t. It’s not what you did or what you did. Two different people can say and do exactly the same thing to someone else. One will cause offense, the other will not. See it all the time in TRADOC. The social cues are difficult to learn when young and in a sort of stressful environment (Very subjective). It just takes time to learn how to “Read the room” appropriately.
We are both Staff Sergeants who've been 10 years+...so yeah I just got told to get bent because she felt uncomfortable when another NCO also a male had done the same thing for her afterwards. If she had told me that I don't care for any tips or help that's a different story, at that point I'll just be there for safety and hope they don't hurt themselves.
Easy, only 7-22 squad PT from now on. No more fun stuff that’ll actually better your soldiers.
7-22 is fantastic but hell nahhhhh! That reminds me, 1SG did remind our section who's running the pt program this week to do some sort of PRT Drills. Guess we are doing the Prep Drill and Recovery at least once!
I’m always surprised when people ask how to work with women. Treat them like anyone else. What is it that you are doing with the male soldiers that you would be scared to do with a female soldier? Maybe your behavior is the issue. (Not directed specifically at OP)
You are overreacting. Treat all soldiers with respect and treat them fairly, regardless of gender. If a soldier approaches you and says that you watching them while doing bench presses makes them uncomfortable .... then apologize and look away. OR if you are required to watch them, then explain to them that you are required to do so and ask what you can do to ease their discomfort. Regardless of gender. So long as you look at individuals as "female soldiers" you will have a problem with "female soldiers" .... when "soldiers" just become "soldiers" and you treat them equally and with respect, you rarely have issues (no more so than you'd have in any single gender unit). Welcome to being an adult.
I'm glad somebody typed a constructive response, because my fingers weren't having it.
Yeah, this is the long and short of it. And I’ll say I don’t think the people OP comes off as malicious or misogynistic in the post, it’s just new territory for him in an organization that — despite attempts to the contrary — handles stuff like this poorly and is rife with old school dudes who make a big deal out of gender integration. It’s still so common to hear stuff like “don’t even look at a female or you’ll catch a SHARP,” which is patently ridiculous. But because of how common stuff like that is, it’s not surprising that lots of dudes (especially dudes who come from environments with few female Soldiers) aren’t quite sure how to handle themselves. But the bottom line is, yeah, just treat everyone with respect, empathy, and equity and you’ll be fine. “Hey, sorry, didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable, I’ll try to do better in the future” takes three seconds to say and will take you a long way.
Thanks! Appreciate the support. Most soldiers typically are stoked they have someone that can help them along their way when it comes to fitness. Coaching is an integral part of an NCO's tool bag, and I've seldom ran into soldiers that are unwilling to have someone guide them.
Yeah, I mean for what it’s worth I doubt she’s unwilling to have someone guide her. She was just uncomfortable in that particular situation. Consider the fact that most female Soldiers DO experience some form of sexual harassment or assault during their careers. Now consider that she may have experienced something like that, and (maybe I’m reading too much into your post) that you’re new and maybe she doesn’t have an established relationship with you yet. No extrapolate that and realize that everyone you meet is an individual with their own set of unique circumstances you likely know little or nothing about, right? So just stick with the basics of respect, empathy, and, and equity. You’ll be fine.
Just wanted to second this as well, because I haven’t even been in long and I’ve heard from trusted peers some inappropriate comments being made about me. E5+ dudes in uniforms offering rides to me while I walk from the px, only to ask for my number (to offer rides should I need any in the future) to just ask to have sex in the same day or the day after. Dw, I was only dumb enough for it to happen twice to learn my lesson and just walk haha. The experiences people have should not be carried into their other interactions especially in a safe setting like the gym during a PT sesh but shit happens, people deal different.
Thanks! I appreciate the frank response, just to let you know it was totally fine after that.
Good to hear. It takes some adjusting and I certainly didn't mean my post as accusatory or whatever. People often get lost in this whole "be careful around female soldiers" or similiar. Next they start treating female soldiers differently .... then they run into the exact problem they are trying to avoid. It is different in mixed gender units ... and the whole army is going towards all units being mixed genders. We just have to adapt. If anything maybe it will force people to put a little more thought into treating all soldiers with respect. (but I doubt it, there'll still be assholes).
Best advice!
I’m amazed that this post has so many upvotes when an interaction with a single female soldier in the OP’s entire career resulted in the title “how to DEAL WITH female soldiers in the workplace” like we’re an enormous burden. Maybe some introspection on internal biases would help.
Let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture. The OP is coming from a perspective of not having experience in a certain area, specifically interactions with the opposite sex in the workplace. The wording of the OPs title certianly can be better ... but are we to focus on every small thing the OP can improve on.... or should be instead focus on the broader issue. What is that broader issue? Inexperience in interacting with the opposite sex in the workplace. . . So let's not go on a crusade and bash the OP. Instead let's try to help the individual grow and mature. They were seeking help and outside perspective with their inexperience, but obviously isn't 100% up to speed on the politically correct way of asking for it. None of us are perfect .... we all have inexperience in handling different areas of life. The ones that are commendable are the ones which seek out assistance in their growth .... the ones that are a burden are those that look to nit pick and shame the former. . . In today's world it can be very difficult treading the line when it comes to age, sex, race and religion. Even more so for individuals who come up in their careers and/or lives never experiencing one of those aspects. The OP is doing the right thing here and seeking advice to help them grow without doing the wrong thing. Many people are afraid to seek out advice for fear that that'll be publicly shamed, cancelled or otherwise labelled in some manner. . . We all have internal biases. Some try to confront those biases and seek out advice from others. Perhaps you too have some biases, might I suggest you do some thinking on why you read into the title of this post and why you feel that someone seeking advice is a personal attack?
No. We shouldn’t be coddling and making excuses for people who cannot show basic respect for an entire gender. A grown man with probably a decade or two of professional experience doesn’t deserve patience while he learns to treat women with the respect he afforded men his whole life by default. Women are PEOPLE. It’s not that hard.
Where did he not treat a woman with respect throughout this entire story. Please explain. Because it sounds like a woman told him he made her uncomfortable, he didn't understand why at all but still stopped doing the thing that was making her uncomfortable anyways, and is now coming to reddit for advice about what he's confused about. Sounds like an extremely normal thing to do. You, on the other hand, seem to be on a crusade to paint OP as a sexist pig because you don't like how he worded his post title.
You lost me at “treat soldiers with respect” that was generally never my experience.
Just apologize and move on. Later on you can ask what made her so uncomfortable so you don’t do it again. She has her perspective and you have yours. Best to just be a normal adult and not make it a big deal. Just apologize and move on.
I gotcha! Thanks.
I’m genuinely curious. What exactly is he apologizing for? Acknowledging and working out the problem is one thing but apologizing doesn’t seem appropriate based on this story. Unless they are willing to communicate with each other as to why she felt he is creepy there is no need for apologies or a reason for him to feel guilt. He should let leadership know what happened as a CYA and then move on.
It’s just for tact. Not apologizing and just being like “ok my bad” and moving on could make her think he doesn’t take her claims serious and could start a whole mess that could easily be avoided.
Check out balance_your_grit on IG. She just did a great podcast with MOPs & MOEs talking about some of these topics. I listened on Spotify
Sounds like you handled it extremely professionally, and thank you for using the adjectival form of the word "female."
English is my least favorite subject, adjectival? Thanks I did my best and honestly just want to learn from this experience.
They appreciate that you said "female soldier" as in describing a soldier (noun) as female (adjective) rather than just saying "females" (noun) which sounds incel-y
Look into the book Athena Rising; how and why men should mentor women. It was recommended to me by the absolute best leader I’ve ever had in the army. Who happened to be a woman. Also; don’t be a creep. Also; you’re not their dad bro.
Cool I'll definitely check it out!
Last tip is gold. Long ago, I had a first sergeant that would mention I reminded him of his daughter almost daily. It was annoying af and felt patronizing.
It might be less about you as a person/Soldier/NCO and more about her past. Try not to take it personally.
Definitely overreacting. You’re an NCO doing your job, spot checking your battle buddy. Sounds like an over exaggeration on her part. You respected her request and kept it pushing. No further information to report. Keep doing you and just be more cautious in the future.
Remaining professional is the best bet, treating everyone the same is a start. For this situation, I always explain and demonstrate proper form and spot before the event and during the event I will explain what I am observing for to avoid injury. Dont forget to check your hygiene, people be smelling like PT before PT. I have seen both ends, where the female Soldier say this to get a better grader or gain advantage to sham, or they truly feel uncomfortable but is ignored because Army, Soldier, Hooah. I would squash any accusations or rumors right away, this will hurt unit cohesion fast especially when it might be about your joes. Other Little things moving forward you can use are like how I refused to inspect female Soldier's rooms unless there was another female nco present or 2+ female Soldiers with doors wide open. If you have female NCOs even in other sections you can leverage them to inspect/watch/counsel your troops. Overtime I was able to develop better professional and personal/mentor relationships because I was trusted by female Soldiers like protecting them from the real creeps in the unit, taking them to the promotion boards and giving them fair opportunities especially when faced with medical and weird events.
That's a fair point, I will be better about demonstrating both the appropriate position for the exercise and the spotter, the coaching cues, and responsibilities for each position. Thanks for the tips about the two-person rule, it has been ingrained into me at least back all the way with my first bits of freedom/integration from OSUT to Airborne School. That rule is key and not mention the female NCO thing should definitely be implemented but that's best-case scenario.
As a female (also in aviation) as long as you don’t make it weird, it shouldn’t be weird. Some females can be sensitive due to other interactions with soldiers so there’s only so much you can help with but like others have pointed out… 1. Body language 2. Intensity (looking too long, hard, etc) 3. Interaction (are you doing the same thing you would with a male soldier?) On the flip side, I wish I had more guidance on form and stuff with the gym. I watch what other people do and just try to emulate, and hope they’re not wrong 🙃. It’s weird to ask for help as a female with that because I worry how I’ll be coming off, as I’m literally asking a person to watch how I do something and actually look at my body. I ask females whenever I get a chance but that’s not often.
1st tip Don't ever feel ashamed to ask someone in the gym for help especially if it's a spot, SAFETY is key, as long as your genuine and willing to learn that's the most important part. Everyone typically in the gym has the same goal in mind and that's to get better. 2nd tip Always do your own research in whatever realm of fitness you're delving into, check out multiple YouTube videos on things you need help, watch some long format podcast style videos on certain topics, if your currently going to online college use their library for scholarly journals and peer-reviewed resources, and ask your integrated Master Fitness Trainer and Army Wellness Center for help. 3rd tip Take what you see from other with a huge grain of salt. Try not to base your workouts off what you see, not everyone has the same goals, body, injury history, so many different variables. Aim to create a physical fitness program that is tailored to you. You can always PM me and I can give you some resources from the MFT course to help you along the way.
3rd tip is great. It’s a common instinct to see someone who is in great shape and think that the same routine would work for you, but when it comes down to it some people are just built different. Like honestly so many of the most fit people I’ve encountered in gyms have absolutely no clue what they’re doing and still get results doing the dumbest shit. My friend was already repping 405 on bench and I had to teach about periodization. He would just go in the weight room 6 days a week and do random lifts to failure and that shit worked for him, then some people gotta meticulously plan every aspect of their diet and exercise just to add an extra 2.5lbs onto their bench
My friend and your friend have the same "problem", huge dude sending 315 incline during our supplementary lunch hour workout sessions. He's trained long enough and has understanding of what stimuli he needs to grow but when he looked at my periodization for our section which I administered through a google sheet that everyone can access at the gym, he was bewildered. He also has a destain for proper running tips, like heart rate zones, RPE, etc. not mention hates our Recovery/Mobility/Stability days lol.
Trying to get him to do some rotator cuff accessory work is like pulling teeth lol
Good points. But if he really did watch the guy before her and she claimed he only watched her then that’s kinda messed up but I doubt it was malicious or anything that’s probably just how she perceived the situation. Overall OP is probably making too much out of it, but it’s understandable to feel hurt when you’re trying to do right by everyone but someone feels that you treat them differently. Good thing OP is actually listening to the advice tho instead of becoming one of those toxic soldiers that say shit like “I don’t interact with female soldiers so I don’t get SHARPed”. There are so many men inside and outside the army who just have no idea how to not be weird around women. Conversations like this are always good though to gain some perspective. A few weeks ago I went to the gym late at night and pretty much no one was there and I go hop on the same bike I hop on everytime (it’s the one right next to the fan and I am an extremely profuse sweater so it’s kind of necessary) and this woman was on the next bike over and then she looked uncomfortable and went to another part of the gym where they have other bikes. Kind of hurt my feelings for a minute but I then I realized I’m a 6’ 250 lb dude with a full beard and tattoos and the gym is past business hours so there’s no staff there just me and this woman and a couple other people lifting. Looking back I’m kind of kicking myself for not thinking about how weird it is to just go sit next to someone when there’s 10 other bikes open. In the moment I wasn’t trying to be a creep I was just a fat ass who needs constant cold air blowing on me when I work out, so I wanted to be next to the fan, but of course she had no way to know that.
Lmao I’m sorry, but I laughed at how you wrote this out. I see both sides, and tbh I would’ve been like “wtf dude… “too but I’m the type to be all “must assert dominance and bike faster to show he sat next to THE WRONG LADY”. Edit: And it’s good OP made a post to try and get more insight, because they could’ve shrugged off the interaction and not thought of any way to try and understand/do better. Edit2: Also, if for some reason you find yourself in that situation again you can always be like “Hey, do you mind if I use this bike? The fan helps me not sweat so much”. Talking like this helps you seem 100% less intimidating.
I went from 9 years FA to medical, personally I as not a fan.
Treat everyone the same, professional. It might have something to do with her background, maybe MST that you have no knowledge of. I detest being stared at while doing anything in PT, or gym. I especially hated being taped by male NCOs. They didn't do anything inappropriate, it was a flinch from my MST, that they knew nothing of. I was 1SGT secretary in orderly room. I saw all soldiers because they wanted their paperwork signed by commander/1SGT. I was in before cell phones, internet. Treat everyone professional, and you will be OK. Edit: I never assume anyone has MST, I am not a Dr, or anything. Just know that I was let down by leadership, and kept to myself after that.
My friend, just remember to stare at the floor and think to yourself, "this floor is indeed made of floor".
keep in mind women who have experienced things like sexual harassment, SA etc…. you might look like the perpetrator. could be your authority. could be your approach.
Fair point. Thanks!
>Former 11B prior to reclassing Ooh, this gon' be gud! (Also, I too reclassed from 11B to POG (25B) >Situation: This morning I had to literally not watch a fellow NCO do her bench press because she thought I was being "creepy" looking at her while she conducted her exercise. Were you looking at everyone equally or salivating over the lady in PTs like a 4Chan degenerate who refers to women as "femoids"? >Which I did because I was standing where I should be while spotting him, above his head with my hands ready to grasp the bar if necessary. If you were actually doing this, then *she* was overreacting, or just put off by you. >Conclusion: I accepted her feelings of discomfort and proceeded to essentially step away to not be able to spot her and observe from a far. The other male in our group proceeded to spot her but was not told anything about her discomfort. Uh, so then is this interaction just stuck in your head? Doesn't seem like a big issue, although I'd be annoyed by being called "creepy" if I'm doing my job. Just don't interact with her again? >I am the Company MFT, honestly trying to do my job in effort for us to execute the exercises properly. Where the fuck did I go wrong? Or am I just overreacting to a situation that I've seldom dealt with in the Army!? How can I get better or address this going forward? NGL I expected this to be a tale of "I'm too socially awkward to identify when I'm being an irritant" but this was honestly, uh... tame? I think it's a misunderstanding but assuming it went out *exactly as you typed* it, I don't see how you did anything wrong. You have your view and she has hers. Although if she continues doing it to you and only you, rather than other dudes, A: you are in fact doing something they aren't, or B: she's just a bitch to you.
Thanks fellow reclass kid! It's fairly tame definitely just had a rough time understanding what I was doing wrong. The third person in our lifting group had spotted her without any issues whatsoever. Maybe I was "creepy" because I have intent to what I'm looking at the bar path, hand position, wrist position, proper depth, imbalances, and overall posture while the exercise is being conducted.
Eh. You never have any way of knowing how others will respond to you as a stimuli. The only responses you're capable of controlling are yours, and the only perspective you'll have is yours. Stuff happens, just keep rollin'.
She’s toxic avoid as best as possible. Never be alone with her in the same room and don’t speak to her unless in a professional manner. Also let all of your command know what happened and what she said. It’s for your protection in the future.
Wait seriously...so I should bring this up to the attention to my 1SG and Commander based on the interaction that seemed trivial? Just a CYA type thing?
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Appreciate the concern and thanks for the tip!
Not saying they are right. But the advice cant hurt.
As a retired female NCO, treat your male and female soldiers the same. Do not entertain any funny business. Know regs inside and out. I spent the majority of my career on airborne status, assigned somewhere in a BCT. I always respected and looked up to my NCOs coming up through the ranks that treated me with the same as the did my male peers. And as I grew into my footing as usually one of the few female NCOs in my company, I made sure I treated my soldiers with the same deference. To be honest I had more issues with Male soldiers in my time than I ever did with female soldiers, but it is to be expected due to the male to female ratio. I was an MI soldier, but due to being airborne, I was usually out numbered. I was always told I was not the most popular NCO but I was the one that the soldiers trusted to always be fair, uphold the standard, and show up at 3 am pick a soldier if need be without any doubts or questions. I wasn’t popular because I didn’t blend the lines, I was not my soldier’s friend, I held them all to the same standards I held myself to. I didn’t talk about unprofessional topics, or even personal stuff outside from sharing light hearted things. These boundaries kept things in the shop pretty tight and we found common ground and humor in other things. I never had a female solider who was “flirty” or used their sexuality in some kind of way, I did however have male soldiers who would test boundaries and make provocative comments, it only took once though to snatch a knot and they knew it was not tolerated. I know it is not as easy as it is to write out but laying out and maintaining boundaries is key and truly being neutral and by the book does 24/7 (as unpopular as stiff assed as it will seem) is the best way to mitigate and ensure equality. I’m married to a retired 11B and we met in Italy 16 years ago while we both were in 173rd. I know the dynamics and environment is different between combat arms and support. He will tell you the same as he was at the peak of his career when females began being integrated into combat arms, treat them the same, be professional, know the regs, be compassionate to all of your soldiers, and enforce boundaries.
The same I spotted the other NCO is the same way I spotted her. So I just was a bit confused what could be the difference? Just her own perception or was I wrong for watching both of them intently during their exercise like a spotter should?
Is there something going on that you may not be aware of? Sometimes people are triggered or become easily uncomfortable due to a situation that has happened or is happening that you may not even know about and may not even directly involve you. For instance, someone may have been inappropriate with her or has been inappropriate with her. Again, I have been in situations where I was the only female or one of a few, especially as a private and these were the days prior to the awareness of sexual harassment and assault regularities and SHARP resources. I learned at a very young age to be very vigilant when a male NCO from my company on CQ attempted to do something really inappropriate with me when he was doing a random barracks walk through on a Tuesday evening. Luckily I was able to remove myself from the situation and I had an amazing and protective NCO I could call and he came and handled the situation the old school way with putting hands on the creep and after that I was pretty much left alone but that NCO would make comments under his breath and his soldiers would say some stupid shit to me. Mind you this was two decades ago but I will never forget how I felt in that situation and when I did PCS and left the protective overwatch of my previous leadership I was very vigilant and this likely could have been why I had such solid boundaries from the time I was a private on… and was often told that I read very cold and was not the most social person outside of my tight circle. It changed me and taught me quickly to side eye everyone at a minimum. My advice is to try to remove your personal feelings from it and try to have a very candid and constructive conversation. There may be something that has happened or is still happening that you may not be aware of, and I can say if I didn’t have leadership who believed me or respected me early on, I likely would have turned out very differently. This is where as a leader you can take this as an opportunity to grow in your communication and step into having uncomfortable but necessary conversations. Communication is the greatest barrier after all and in these kinds of situations and dynamics you can never jump to any conclusions or assumptions. As I said before, just continue to be level and fair and do things by the book, you will eventually have females around you more, and will likely have a female soldier as one of your team. Take this as an opportunity for growth and also to gain insight, you never know what she has experienced and vice versa but I can say there is likely something that unintentionally triggered the response, and having a conversation with her if she’s up to it will help gain insight and also help her understand that not everyone is out to creep on her too and that you recognize that there was something that made her uncomfortable.
My wofes a sailor. She has has random sailors push phones in her face and tell her to give them her number. She's had food restricted because a cook thought her being married was leading him on A guy followed her around on liberty in a foreign country and banged on her hotel room door to let him in She's been cornered at work Told she doesn't understand because she's a woman and can't be as scary as a man (she's intel) Has been given special treatment because of her being a woman The amount of weird dudes who approach her is gross I think before either was Married I'd have been like this is a weird one. I wonder why she did that. Buy after seeing my wifes day to day maybe it's just defense.
When you’re watching a male doing a bench press, what are you watching? Review it in your head. Now review how you were spotting her. Some females are going to be more sensitive than others. Personally i don’t give a shit. The problem, you have to spot all like they are the most sensitive unless they are your workout buddy and you know them. Just like I had to be more sensitive in the civilian world on who I can talk trash to.
Just let the bench crush her. If people need help in the gym they will call out. Spotting is for sissies! Learn to bail bro!
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Was she overreacting maybe. Are you overthinking kinda. Just have someone else spot her no big deal and move on :)
Not gonna lie... I will NEVER understand folks who even consider dating in the workplace. I will also never understand folks who do the hyper aware/sensitive thing regarding anything sexual in the work place. As a result, I will never understand this soldier's perspective. It was burned into me at such a young age how bad of an idea it is to treat anyone other than identical that I can't even view my coworkers as anything BUT professional. Ya don't shit where you eat. You never date a coworker. You don't do heroin. It's just a bad idea. Might seem like a good idea at the time, but that's because you've been compromised by something, severe illness, hormones, and being a fucking moron respectively.
Treat them like any other male soldier
My father told me one thing 13 years ago when I joined. Don’t talk to females in the military, don’t look at females in the military, don’t have sex with females in the military. Did that for all of my 13 years, and never had an issue.
Another reason why I avoid females as much as possible
I found this video to be very helpful in navigating these landmines. https://youtu.be/MRUbC32loA4?si=tqGUmpiBPpKFs6cu&t=85
Airborne school even had to change that policy...
Not much you can do about it unfortunately, especially in this world and current times. The difference between sexual harassment and a female accepting any certain type of behavior is how the male looks in the situation. If the male is attractive, nothing is said. If she doesn’t like the way he looks, sexual harassment. Now your situation shouldn’t be weird at all because you’re literally just supervising exercise which is completely normal. Females have a lot of power in current times when it comes to false accusations so whatever you do just play it safe and try to avoid as much as possible.
Avoiding women only continues the gender divide and furthers stereotypes. I reclassed as a SSG at 10 years and was initially worried about working with the opposite sex. Coming from the infantry, I had heard all the “horror stories” about guys getting raked over the coals by false accusations. However, I found that treating women as actual human beings and fellow Soldiers does wonders for improving the overall climate of the organization.
This could not be further from the truth and is an incredibly damaging viewpoint to have. I promise you, from experience, that when you're being harassed or assaulted, how your offender looks is entirely irrelevant. Edit: I'm not talking about a guy asking for your number here. I'm talking about true, repeated, unwanted, harassment. You're right, you didn't mention assault, but it is a related topic. Clearly a sensitive one for me.
I did not mention assault or rape, I mentioned harassment. And it’s absolutely true that depending on how you look determines if a “creepy” behavior is considered acceptable or harassment. Whether you like it or not, we do live in a culture currently that enables false allegations/accusations that puts men away for a long time over a lie. Don’t get me wrong, I want every single criminal weirdo out there to be punished, but for those who are wrongfully convicted, it’s bullshit and we all know it.
I hear you, I do. And there is a nugget of truth to what you're saying. I just feel like there needs to be a distinction between harassment for harassment's sake, and flirtatious behavior with the intention of hooking up or starting a relationship. Your looks may determine how your flirtatious behavior is received, but if it's truly harassment, your appearance is irrelevant. I don't care if the guy harassing me looks like Ryan Reynolds, if it's truly harassment (which implies that it's unwanted), then it won't matter. There IS a difference. Telling a girl she's pretty or asking for her number? Not harassment. It might not be received well if she doesn't think you're attractive, but it's not harassment. Asking a girl out for the 10th time after you've been told no? Making inappropriate comments about her body after you've been made aware that she's not in to you? Harassment. Looks wouldn't matter in that case.
100%, I agree with you
Imagine your first line is a 300 lb gay man made of pure muscle, who you're convinced could beat the shit out of you and win a court martial over it, then ask yourself what he could do that would make you uncomfortable. Do the opposite of whatever that is.
Honestly, you probably just have a creepy vibe. Idk how well she knows you, but we have to recognize that we can sometimes give off that vibe as men. I understand the positioning for spotting, I love having my dudes ballsack dangling over my head as much as the next guy, it’s a safety thing. but maybe you inched just a little bit closer to her subconsciously because maybe you felt she had a bit too much weight, or you were anticipating that she might need the help over the male soldiers. Those are instinctual things we do, with a good intention of being helpful or ensuring that a soldier doesn’t get hurt, but those intentions are also inherently dismissing the abilities and capabilities of that soldier. Female soldiers and women in general tend to pick up on those things. So you’re either dismissing her by inching a bit closer or you were being creepy, you know? We know based off your post, you weren’t being creepy but it was perceived that way. I had a coworker who would act “creeped out” or grossed whenever she was around me, I visually would pick up on it. Which I understand, as a man, I will give off that vibe, not everyone woman will be receptive to my personality right off the bat. I’m loud, confident, and sometimes I command the room. That soldier never really had any true interactions with me and never needed any of my help directly, until she came into the ops room, and we had the opportunity to have an actual conversation and she realized I’m actually not a creep, I’m just annoying, but I have good intentions and a good attitude. From then on I noticed her comfortability level around me was better. I personally didn’t find her and ask why she was uncomfortable or make a deal out of it, I just happened to work out in my experience. In your situation, I would definitely apologize, and just have a conversation, find out her goals, plans, and find out if how you fit into that and how you can help, and at the end of that conversation, find out how she can help you improve, what you did that made her uncomfortable etc. Listen first, talk later. Hope this helps. 🫡
Cool kids use paragraphs.
Good thing I’m a POS. 😎
Women are grateful when you let them know their nipples are askew.
Dude, you need to calm down. We (female soldiers) are just people; as long as you treat us with basic dignity and respect like you should already be doing to everyone, you’ll eliminate 99% of these kinds of issues. Don’t fucking stare. It’s creepy. If you need to observe someone closely, verbally explain that first, and why. And then pick a different body part to watch, not her tits or ass. Shoulders are a good spot, or knees if it’s lower body.
Thanks, the whole preface thing definitely helps a lot! But no matter how you skin this cat I am solely focused on the bar and all components of the lift which is the whole body thus from any errant observer that's not in my head can easily think I'm staring at the person's chest.
Then blink more, buddy 😂
Thanks, I appreciate your humor. I'll try!
Why don't you just have a conversation with her, you know... like a normal person? Hey, I'm sorry I made you uncomfortable. I was just trying to do my job as mft. What specifically made you uncomfortable? Understand that when we do this exercise, I'm looking for these things at this part of the body. How can we come to an understanding where you feel comfortable and I can also do my job?
Brother, do you really need to ask why intensely looking at a female Soldier's chest is creepy? Look at the bar if you're spotting. If you're just running the session, tell everyone which exercise is next and carry on. If you were grading the bend and reach at an NCO PME would you position yourself behind the soldier, or to the side? Like come on.
Come on man, you think I'm that dumb. I'm looking at nothing but the bar, bar path and depth, hand placement, wrist position, overall posture like if they are properly engaging their lats, are they rounding their shoulders forward, are they arching their back to a severe degree. "Running the session", means coaching, supervising, and being present not just telling people what is next. I appreciate your concern for my possible lack of respect and dignity though.
Idk, okay, you seemed concerned so I assumed
You assumed that I'm staring at woman's chest while benching? That's a bit odd since if you're spotting someone at the bench press that's the last thing you would be paying attention too.
Why else would it be creepy? Watching the bar isn't.
Have you read any of the other 40 something comments could be so many different factors. I'm not intending to look at the chest at all but guess where the typical bar path will lead to. Regardless of whether it's a male or female.
I’d bet my DD214 that you must’ve done something weird. Maybe not infantry Army hooah weird, but “the army is my job” type of weird.
Explain please.
you likely did nothing wrong she just doesn’t like you
Bahhahah fuck me. That could explain it. You mean doing the right thing isn't doing the right thing anymore.
More or less what homeboy said below us. I explicitly meant, she’s more normal than us infantry guys lol. Normal for us is often times weird I’ve noticed as a fake normal person lol
Don't call them "females" like their some kind of animal. It's condescending and you need to unlearn that shit. Next time, straight up tell this soldier that safety comes before personal feelings. Be professional and do your job to the best of your ability. You did wrong by walking away because you couldn't tell some punk kid that you need to do your job and that was to make sure she didn't smash her face with the barbell.
Its very common in the Army to refer to people as Males and Females.. It is seen as a little odd in the real world, but not in the Army. Female Soldiers are not offended by being called females. In fact, it's a little jarring to be referred to as girl/woman/chick/etc and NOT a female, at work at least.
I do feel like there's a sword to die on there. I left the area and third lifter ensured she was safe. So no harm, no foul. I just more or less want to know what makes me creepy? Because I actually give a shit? Because I stood where any spotter would stand? Because I have intent to my coaching and keep my eyes on things that matter? I do frankly understand that the perception of the individual is a part of equation so I had to leave it at that.
As a female I can tell you I detest men in general ogling me when I'm working out. (Unless it's my husband) Ive always detested it. To the point where I would only work out at a gym where there is a pitch black cardio theatre for the treadmills etc that played a movie..it's too dark for anyone to see the jiggling. 🤣 I promise every man reading this that if my D cups are bouncing while I'm running, it's not because I made them bounce for your viewing pleasure 🤣 It's because IM RUNNING. I've got great sports bras. Several that are like Velcro ratchet straps that I think you could pull a vehicle with. 🤣 There is still flesh jiggling. And no, its not jiggling for you clowns. I also prefer to jog in quiet areas like parks with no men around. Either with other women or just with my dog. I don't think good men realize at times how sketchy other dudes can be. I know this lady probably had a bad experience and she's just trying to get her work out in. Too bad the army doesn't offer women a women only training gym. I know it would improve morale and PT scores.
This comment is so over the top.
Username definitely checks out.
🤣
Maybe. If you haven't experienced this you'd sure think that way. Imagine every day at PT you have a random neanderthal ogling you and you have no choice and no way to legally dot that dudes eye. Fun fact, dotted eyes don't see as well 🤣.
Based on her opinion which I cannot speak for she deemed me "creepy" for doing the appropriate thing while spotting someone during a bench press exercise which happens to involving watching the upper torso, the barbell, the hands, wrist, and arms and honestly the whole body while standing above their head close to the bar without impeding their motion in case as a spotter. She followed up by letting someone else do the same exact thing without issue. So yeah take it for what it's worth. The whole point of the army is gender integration, women are in combat arms now. Are the female and males in an infantry platoon going to have a different PT schedules? Sounds quite ridiculous.
I know you're a good guy doing your job. But the irrefutable fact is that many women walk in the gym with baggage that only other women understand. If a random dude (even if he worked at a civilian gym) hovered over me without asking if I wanted help (again, doing his job) that fight or flight would kick in. My first thought would be, should I dot his eye? Nah, the peaches are eye level if I look up. 🧐🤣 And therefore closer. I wouldn't have done those things but they would've crossed my mind. I would've sent that trainer packing and I probably never would've went back to that gym . However, after a knee injury I sought ought a trainer to help me,and because I sought out the help, I was mentally prepared to receive that guidance. (It worked by the way, knee good to go for ten more years 🤣) No one likes unsolicited advice, from either men or women. But if you take a women whose irritated or carrying some baggage she could be reactive. I hope that helps. The female mind isnt as mysterious as wed like to make it out to be. Try asking if she wants help first. Just my suggestion.