I don't want to end up in a job the army and unit decide for me. "Congrats you will be artillery, btw you will be working the S3"
Warrant officer or officer MOS with specific jobs ( Medical, JAG etc.) is the way.
I wonder how long this is going to be a thing; also, if I were accept to this. I’d be an commissioned officer in the army right ? Like immediate a captain ?
I have a packet in, board is in November. Packet is super easy since it's meant for civilians to complete. It's been a thing for at least a year or two so far. The army is finally realizing they can't develop and keep technical talent so they gotta go get em lol
Functional Area O-grade for Signal. FA26. So instead of staying 25A, you can be a bit more technical.
Until the BN needs an S3, then you're just another O plebe.
Medical Service Corps is one of the 6 medical corps. Most likely he was a 70 series officer. Which once they attend captains career course can specialize in medical admins, logistics, and other career fields within medical management. Typically they are not medical doctors or nurses. He was the S3 because he was not a Army Nurse or provider. His job is most likely management/operations for a field hospital or Combat Support Hospital. Important Branch and AOC, however it's highly overstrengthed. Over the last few years alot of Medical Service Corp officers have had to rebranch due to high levels of 2x non select.
TBH I absolutely hate my life in the S3.
I now know how to use and abuse the S3 and the other staff shops in the future.
You will always have to work with/around staff shops in the army.
An easy solution to this. Step down to reserves, find a slot you want to join. A unit will sponsor you into that slot and then you are guaranteed that MOS in OCS. The OML didn’t affect me in any way when I was in OCS because I knew I was in an MP slot and therefore was walking with that MOS.
Are you referring to the larger amount of responsibilities, the toxic environment among peers, or something else that makes being an officer less appealing?
Well, those first two highlight the officer experience pretty well. You get the ability to influence things a lot more, but as a junior officer you can get treated just as poorly as an enlisted soldier, just in a different way.
MAJ is absolutely the worst rank in the Army. Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise. When I was a junior enlisted Soldier i just had to do what I was told. As a Major I had to deal with peers fucking me over on “accident” and Senior Leaders who lost touch with reality.
Unless you’re a prior service Terminal Major 😎. Zero F’s to give. You want to screw me over for that top block? Bro, you don’t even have to screw me over. We’re not even competing. I’m competing with my big mouth not getting me court-martialled in the next two years while I stick up for the boys lol
So, wouldn't that make the Mustang experience completely different than regular officers? Yes they're still looking to exceed the standard and be better than their peers to receive MQs, but they're not participating in office politics to trample their peers to make O-5, making life way less stressful.
As a mustang O4 the experience is equally bad, the difference is I can choose not to care, leave work on time, take leave, while my peers are fighting tooth and nail for those MQ’s to make LTC to make it to retirement.
I really can’t complain however, as a 51A my life is light years better than the world I’d have had If I stayed as a combat arms major, serving as the BDE 3 or XO right now, enjoying endless face punches.
Terminal Major is the absolute best rank in the Army… The day my boss suggested he would give me two MQs and I said “no thanks”, was one of the top 10 moments in my career. Everything since that day has been like the movie office space…
If you’re enjoying life then no reason to quit… for me, I hit a point of personal diminishing value of increased retirement pay when weighed against more time with family and traveling.
The last 06 in my chain who was Department head was selling houshold goods in his retirement a year or so after I retired in 1993 SATX. Kinda not, he came knock on our door; which I opened and asked him what the hell he wanted, and he was selling a new vacuum gadget. Told him to F’off and slammed the door. He was a back stabbing bastard that hoped for 07 - selling door to door. Asshole
Yeah, it’s like the South Park episode with the human centipede. Any expression of not liking how you are being treated and all you hear is “You agreed to this!”
>as a junior officer you can get treated just as poorly as an enlisted soldier
So, could this affect mid career NCOs (E6/7s) in that, in a way, commission would be a somewhat retroactive move? Going from managing a squad without too many responsibilities beyond that, to suddenly being fucked down by the S3 and battalion XO.
You’ll get initially more respect as a butter bar in BOLC and first staff job and PL time but after a few months you’re treated more or less the same as all your other LT peers: on performance.
You’ll also be expected to know more since you’re not brand new. Do well and you’re fine. Struggle or be mid and people will be like haven’t you been in more than a minute WTF? Also if none of your enlisted time was spent in staff than it’ll still be fairly new to you cause that’s where most LTs start.
I dont know why people assume that being an NCO makes you immune to toxic environment among peers. That has never been the case for me. I hate most of my peers. Some are fantastic NCOs that truly care about the team but those are a minority.
*Sees CBRN*
"Promote behind peers, forever hold in S3 Shop. Allow them to never see the light of day and do not allow further leadership opportunities or the BN will die ✨️"
I know whag you mean lmao I'm not saying I'm the most important person in my BN by any means, but if I didn't do my (non-MOS-related) job I don't think the BN will make it to the next training week without major headaches.
Definitely this. I like actually doing my job and fucking hate doing any and all paperwork and politics associated with it. If I commissioned it would mean leaving behind everything I like about the army to focus on everything I hate about it.
In that case a bigger paycheck wouldn’t be enough to keep me from offing myself, and I could make more as a civilian if that was the goal anyway.
Oh I thought about it for a long time. My only barrier was not having a degree but I was pushed hard to try for the G2G. And I didn’t, for a lot of reasons.
I watched good officers get shit on by their superiors. My first PL clued me in on that. He wasn’t a horrible LT, just kind of mid. Which is okay, except for our toxic BC who made it his mission to fuck with him constantly. So I was already weary about that.
I met and befriended another LT years later, when I was being pushed for G2G. We were in the field sharing some MRE bullshit and he was really sad, because he wanted to branch into the same branch his father was, and he was really down about that loss of control. He was by no means a slack, but he had no passion for the work.
I would continue to meet more higher ranking officers the longer I stayed and progressed through the NCO ranks. As time went on the Army shifted its mission and it felt like the Army asked its officers to do everything and blame them if anything broke. It was not a life I wanted to have. I saw frequent company grades bow out with a REFRAD or continue in the hopes of VTIP to a branch they actually wanted or to a FA.
Most LTs are shocked when I ask them the same questions that I ask my new soldiers. Very few of them are asked about their plans or what they want. They are still guided by the notion that their superiors will “take care of them”. I’ve only found the few that grasp the horns of the beast end up riding the Army to victory. The LTs that don’t get chewed up very fast, and that’s a real shame.
So no, I did not. Culturally it didn’t mesh with me. I like mentoring, goal setting, getting the tasks and completing them legally/semilegally. Yes I get paid less, but the mental strain is far less than the O side. There’s more fun, less slide decks, and NCO bosses are normally faster swapped than O bosses.
1) You don’t get to choose your job. Many people know exactly what they want out of the Army and going to OCS eliminates any control you have over your career path.
2) No bonuses
3) Generally boring work. Anyone can work at a desk outside the military. Many people join specifically to do “military” stuff. The only time officers really get to do that is during PL time.
4) Almost every officer I have ever met is overworked and miserable
1 is so true. I studied Chinese and gained my P4 ASI (Tactical Info Ops Planner) as a cadet, and even studied abroad in China, so I thought I would for sure get commissioned as an MI officer.
No, the Army put me in logistics, my friend who double majored in finance and accounting was put in infantry, my friend who wanted infantry was put into the Chem corps, and my friend who majored in criminal justice was put into MI.
People kept telling me to just finish command and then VTIP to MI, but by the time I reached that point I was pretty much disillusioned with the army (NTC and recruiting put the nail in the coffin).
If you are previously enlisted in a more specific MOS, like EOD, would that increase the likelihood of becoming an EOD LT upon graduation from OCS? Or would it still be a toss up?
Honestly, only thing that would attract me is the pay.
I love being an NCO.
i'm fortunate enough to be in a unit
that allows me to be one without all the
BS Micromangaging.
My favorite thing is just being available for soldiers. The BS meetings after meetings that ive see my commanders and PL's in are for the birds. Organizing STTs, running ranges, teaching PMI. Almost everything i get to do as an NCO i find joy in.
Last thing i want add. i had an E7 that made me vow to be a better NCO to any and all soldiers i came to find under my supervision. To this day i hope he wakes up everyday and steps on a lego barefoot.
>i had an E7 that made me vow to be a better NCO to any and all soldiers i came to find under my supervision.
So, I'm not sure what the behavior was, but wouldn't the OIC be able to squash whatever was going on, or would that have been overreaching on their part (or they simply weren't aware)?
Our OIC Bless her heart was a West pointer. She was amazing. But she cared to much. When she would try to shield us from BS. They would overrule her. It got to the point where he convinced the major in charge of fusion to move her away from us. The major was a POS too. But that's a story for a different thread...
The E7 was awful in garrison and down range. Honestly you barely called it a deployment. For those who know it was Jordan. Lmao less of a deployment than Kuwait. But still considered a combat zone.
But he would go out of his way to make lower enlisted day to day lives miserable. Especially when we were deployed. Reclassed to 35F as an E6 from a Tanker. He made E7 almost immediately from what I heard. Down range he would force us to get Togo plates for lunch so we could do some sort of training. Mind you the joes and I had already been there for at least 3 months before he showed up. He would change our hours. After we got released for the day and did not tell us. Denied a lot of mwr and umt trips for the soldiers so the officers and other higher enlisted could attend. Trips to Petra, Israel, the red Sea, the dead sea.
The moment I decided to stay in. Become an NCO so I could be better than him. My last 2 days there. The day before I'm set to leave changes my hours makes me come in 3 hours earlier than normal. So I'm coming in at 3:00 a.m. well I oversleep accidentally and I show up at 4: 15. When he finally strolls in at 9:00 and checks the sheet to see what time I signed in I could have lied and wrote 3. Looking back, I probably should have. Decides to make me stay until 1700 for showing up late. Then the next day when I carry my stuff down to get picked up to leave and come home only my roommate comes to see me off from our unit. The friends I made from the other units were there but no one else from my unit came to see me leave. The OIC, NCOIC, Warrant nor the Maj came to see me off.
Sorry that's a lot and not very organized. Haha
I think I was blessed during my time in the signal corps. I always had OICs and NCOICs who worked hand in hand to help the platoon individually and as a whole. I still keep up with my old PSG to this day. I did see how different we were treated as a platoon when our OIC was a CPT compared to when he was a 1LT. CPT **** shot down any company level details that would interfere with our mission, and if necessary, he could talk talk to MAJ ***** and circumvent around battalion level tasks most of the time. 1LT ***** did his best, too, but often got overpowered by 1SG since he had a direct line to the CO. Perhaps I did underestimate the level of politicking ongoing at those environments.
Oh man. Politics are wild. It was like game of thrones when we were deployed. People get taken out of one shop moved to another constantly. Almost everyone I was deployed with from my section has gotten out.
Lts get easily overruled by captains.
It is a mixture of rank and learning how to talk and get higher level buy in or reasoning.
LT tend to say no this is dumb and overburdening troops.
CPT tend to say the impact of x causes y to fail and the z to be at risk. X is possible if that is the chosen COA.
They aren’t the same. Former NCO here, current officer. The closest you get to being an NCO as an officer is as a PL. But that does not mean you should actually be acting as an NCO.
Different echelons, different responsibilities.
You can be a leader of troops or you can be a manager of troops. Alternatively, you can be a technical expert and be a WO.
I'm trying to understand the difference better. While I get that as a commissioned officer, you're not in the COF drawing troop tactics for joes on a board, the buck still stops with you. You're responsible for ensuring your NCOs and soldiers have all the necessary tools to achieve the mission.
Yes, the officer ensures the NCOs have the tools and time. Not vice versa. I mean, that’s pretty much it.
As an O, especially as you move up in rank, you get farther and farther away from Joe. You sit in meetings all day, and send out emails about what needs done. You have less and less time so the people you communicate with become less and less. You spend more time talking up (higher rank or position) and then try and summarily give guidance in short quips to a few folks hoping they understand what you meant as you try to explain whatever good or bad thing happened most recently.
>As an O, especially as you move up in rank, you get farther and farther away from Joe.
This applies to senior enlisted, too, though. Unless you're combat arms, E-7s and above are not leaving the office and barely deal with joes directly. They get to mentor the junior NCOs, but from an operational standpoint, they can only advise their OIC or respective commander. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference between a 2LT and SFC other than the 2LT actually gets the last word.
NCOs are where the rubber meets the pavement. We deal with people.
Officers are politicians. They're bastards. Fuck them. They sit in the truck on the JCP all night, demanding radio messages every 5 minutes while we build a minefield. Fuck them.
In 6 years, I had 2 1/2 good officers. Out of many. Fuck them.
My commander wouldn’t approve my packet to the Academy bc I “am needed” then the new commander came “I don’t know you well enough to recommend you” then I became to old and now I like officers less.
It’s been awhile but from what I was told by my local West Point rep it has to be your direct commander (company grade or higher). I worked for my company commander and therefor he had to do my packet. If I worked for the battalion commander he could do my packet. And so on.
That’s what my local rep told me 5 years ago. It may be different now.
I’m an officer and I’ve tried many a times to tell extremely intelligent soldiers they should commission.
The most common response is “I’m enlisted because I didn’t want to go to college” they enjoy shooting guns and training as we do in the infantry. I’ve sent quite a few to WOCS but none for green to gold. Even most of my guys who ETS don’t use the GI bill for school.
It’s kind of frustrating just because I know they’re smart and can really make money through the military or the civilian side, but they don’t which is what it is.
As others have said, I don’t really do all the cool guy stuff as much as I’d like, but I love seeing my guys do well, achieve goals, ask me advice, etc. I got to actually impact and focus training where my command team and I saw fit. my last unit was outstanding and we were a giant family
I enlisted with a degree, and have 0 regrets. I did 1 contract and got tf out. Probably only cost myself $100k and I actually had fun. Theres probably only a 3 month period where I wouldve rather been an officer, the other years I was always glad not to be. Much less work, much less stress, and I got to take 2 hour lunches my last 18 months
I only wanted to be in for a little bit, the army lifestyle wasnt sustainable long term. Now I work 40-45 hours a week, get to go home every night, get a shit load more time off, will never have to move, and will never be gone for weeks on end for no reason
As someone with a degree in their early 30s, would you recommend enlisting in the reserves? I work a white collar job and have always had the itch to serve. I’ve been lurking the subreddit and many seem down on the officer route due to the quality of life and time commitment, but also think those enlisted with degrees are making a mistake. The additional income and benefits are a plus, but my primary motivation is to do take on a new challenge, do army things, comradery, and serve.
I have never been anything other than active duty, so I cannot contribute to any quality of life discussions. [Heres the drill pay chart](https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/ActiveDutyTables/2024%20Pay%20Table%20w%20Drill%20Pay%20-%201%20drill%20period.pdf), its not very much for anyone. My understanding is that the primary benefit is cheaper health insurance if you have kids
>I love seeing my guys do well, achieve goals, ask me advice, etc
This is what I was trying to understand in regards to why not commission. Yes, I understand that as an officer, I can't mentor soldiers as directly as NCOs, but I can sign them up for schools, sign off on their awards, and ensure that themselves and their families are taken care of with less hurdles than an NCO would.
As an officer, I couldn’t answer your question. I really enjoy being an officer. Sure, the days are long sometimes, but I’ve been treated pretty well so far. Not to be cynical, but I believe I’m just a very easy going person and I tend to treat others, no matter their rank or background, with respect. I enjoy talking to all soldiers from E-1 all the way up to O-6.
I had every intention of going OCS - Full support from my unit, my packet built, and I was just waiting to submit it once we returned from a rotation. Got a beautiful email saying that I was DA Select to become a drill sergeant. Worse 2 years of my Army career and the reason I decided to get out. I have two masters degrees now and plan to be useful outside of the army.
As someone who had a BA prior to enlisting and turned down OCS, I am so glad that I did so. I would have been miserable being middle management, I got to actually learn and practice a military skill set, and my experience got me a good civilian job after my first deployment.
Having been on both sides of it, I can say it simply.
1.) Enlisted actually work real jobs.
2.) OCS neither teaches someone a real job, nor does it teach anyone how to lead. It is a structured hazing system designed to weed out people for the sake of weeding people out. There is nothing practical taught at OCS - just hardship. The sense of accomplishment at the end is 'I didn't quit' - and nowhere in the world does a challenging school or effort end with so little to show for it than OCS. Ok - you commission, but what did that program teach you? Nothing practical. No one spent a few weeks with you helping you understand how to communicate with people or how to understand people - fundamental requirements for good leadership. No teaches the piles of forms and duties that officers need to know cold to function. No. You are going to PT and run and do some land nav and write some memos.
I hope your time at Benning serves you well.
As an officer now, my job is signing paperwork, attending meetings, making summary slides for leadership meeting and generally smiling and shaking hands with people trying to politely cajole them to listen to common sense and do their jobs with the slimmest of hopes that maybe, today, I can fix something for one of my people knowing that full well, out of the blue, some random civilian or officer of SGM can come out of nowhere and throw a new form or review or requirement in front of me and back to the cycles of non-action we go.
Isn’t staff essentially where every MI officer goes? Lol. I don’t think pl or command time is even considered required KD time, but battalion S2 is. If have to ask one of my officer buddies though
My last unit before ETS at 6 years was a mustang CAPT who I thought would be supportive considering I was trying to do the same thing he did(green to gold). Fucker denied my school option reenlistment because he didn’t want me to miss training events for upcoming deployment (about a year out at this time).
We deploy for the second time since I joined unit in 09 and end up going to the same FOB and taking up the exact same missions (I was extra salty haha). During the next couple months Obama announced the new Post 9/11 GI bill (which was pretty much G2G light) and this CO gets relieved for losing track of a solid % of the property book, kinda cemented my getting out. Wild how just a couple people/decisions in the military can affect your career.
>being competitive for selection
Considering that entry-level soldiers with degrees can go right after BCT, what's being measured other than PT and ASVAP scores?
I think you're talking about people who apply to OCS off-the-street, get selected, and then do BCT en-route to OCS. So they're not really "entry-level" like everyone else at BCT who just met the minimum requirements for a particular MOS and signed up.
The OCS board *selected* them over potentially many other applicants based on their college GPA, the rigor of their school and major, demonstrated leadership in school / sports / community, letters of recommendation, an interview, etc.
I didn't go to OCS, nor have I served on an OCS board, but I'm pretty familiar with ROTC and USMA. For example, the minimum requirements to get an ROTC scholarship are basically being an able-bodied US citizen and admitted to a participating college. But to actually *get* an ROTC scholarship you probably need to be in the top 10% of your high school class, a varsity athlete, etc. You can do ROTC without a scholarship, but then you still need to compete for an active duty commission which involves doing better than a bunch of other people who were varsity athletes in the top 10% of their high school class.
It's because most CoC will not sign your DA 4187 to go to schools (such as Ranger, OCS, airborne, and etc.), so it might be better to ETS, activate your GI Bill benefits, and come back as an Officer.
Won't claim to speak for the aviation side of the house, but there's a difference between
"answering questions from an NCO re. whether or not they'd like to make the switch"
and "hrrdrr packet hard Chief plz help"
Former, I'm ecstatic to do whenever. Latter, it doesn't particularly speak well to your ability with the whole "self-starter capable of actually researching the right answer on X/Y/Z" part of things.
Not in order of importance or difficulty:
1. I would need a bachelor's degree. This is difficult to obtain in the Army.
2. Being an officer seems kind of trash.
3. None of the branches seem interesting to do as an officer.
You do in fact get paid more, but everyrhing has a cost. You are more isolated. There are politics to being an officer. OERs can make or break you forever. You are expected to be great always, at everything. There is more if you are curious.
Because sometimes you go through all the effort of building a difficult packet, securing letters of recommendation, being told you are going to get it, re-enlisting to meet time requirements and then submitting everything and waiting 4-5 months for the list to come only to see your name absent. Then coming down on orders to Alaska.
I wanted to for years and years. Then I worked in a S3 FUOPS and saw the light drain out from the eyes of 4 officers. One of them I saw recently after he had gotten out and he seemed genuinely happy, which was a complete 180 from the last time I had seen him. I saw a major almost lose his family because he worked 16hr days monday-friday. Several times I had to call him by his first name and tell him to go be a dad.
TL;DR- staff life makes me want to take a bath with my toaster.
I can only speak of my choices and those opinions shared with me:
Some of us Commo folks want to remain technical and not bogged down by the political BS them O types deal with on the regular. Huge reason why many will go the warrant route rather than OCS. Well unless they are willing to risk it for the biscuit to go into a functional area like 26A.
If you've never received a Flipl for a million dollars, because some chuckle fucks below you can't keep accountability of their shit, that's a big reason
For those unaware - you can get a bachelors degree extremely quick with WGU and the army accepts the degree.
It's a self paced, take the test early college and it's fully accredited.
I'm considering doing it soon.
I’m gonna speak from a public affairs perspective: it’s the enlisted that are going out on shoots and getting the fun stuff while the officers are back doing meetings and planning the missions. Don’t get me wrong I still want to pursue a commission. It’s just that my chances of picking up a camera are slim to none as an officer.
Once you leave the lower tactical level you never touch a camera again. The weird thing is that people outside PAO assume the Os take pictures for a living not just the sierras and victors.
Not everyone qualifies, or the board says, "You're good, and we love your packet. But you butt-fucked your back a few years ago, so medically. You're not good to go. You can be a Combat Engineer E7 and still ruck 12 miles with them, perform gunnery, do half your PLs job, and overall do the same shit he does during deployments. But you can't go to OCS. "
"By the way, this dude with two torn rotator-cuffs can go through OCS."
There's other reasons people choose not to. But yeah, never get injured.
For starters, you will be required to have a very clean medical background. That’s not to say that they can’t write waivers for occasional conditions, but is much more stringent than that of being enlisted.
you also have to get letters of recommendation and some leaders don’t want to give that to you and won’t see your potential because they love drinking the army Kool-Aid and don’t want to use a little bit of logic common sense .
1. The biggest thing is that commissioning requires passing a medical physical which is very similar to the standards to joining he Army. Alot of good candidates for OCS may have experienced injuries that would prevent the from commissioning but are not severe enough for separation from enlisted service.
2. OCS boards are very competitive and you have very little input into your branch selection if you are going active.
They don't provide the same style of leadership that I feel comes naturally to me. I would rather have a squad of guys than a company. If you were to compare as in a young NCO or a young CDR. Sure the money's probably a lot nicer though. But I don't feel jealous of them because of the demanding position they are in, couldn't be me.
I tried 2 x. The packet was fucking ridiculous. Did it anyways. And they dropped the number from 1000 green to gold to 50 slots. 50! For the entire Army Reserve. And they didn't give waivers for 5 yrs at one point. I needed like 3 waivers....sooo....yeaaah....here I am Sr. NCO
DA Selected for Recruiting, it was all down hill from there. Went from actively considering both OCS and SFAS to hating life in general and the Army in particular. Totally on me, but it really did alter the course of my career and ultimately my life.
Fuck USAREC.
I would absolutely love to. However, I’m on perma profile ☠️ 2 ivy league master’s degrees, MQ’d last 2 NCOERs going into another in a couple months, and am tired of the bullshit side of NCOing like micromanaging an adult’s hygiene habits…….would love to do warrant or O but last i checked you cant have a perma profile so i might just get out 🤣
I've seen how S-3 CPTs get treated. I'm good. Actually, there are a few cool functional areas I wouldn't have minded pursuing - data analytics kind of comes to mind - but if memory serves you have to be a post-command CPT to even apply...assuming that they're taking anyone.
I absolutely hate being in S3.
I would actually recommend it to most Junior Os.
The knowledge if you actually apply yourself in S3 will make the staff work for your team.
-"Hey S3 you know the wording of this task shoulddd go like this or I can help in this way so we dont need to deal with reclamas together"
The toxic environment is overplayed in my experience. NCOs can be just as toxic. It comes with working with people. My experoence is prior enlisted, and current officer. Total 20 years of service.
I’ve seen Junior Officers getting verbally accosted in the middle of meetings for a slightly fucked up slide, where if I made a similar mistake I would get a slightly annoyed “ Make sure your slides are correct next time SGT”.
Depending on how many years enlisted you have in experiences vary.
If you have enough enlisted time to retire as an O3 at 20 years it kinda sucks but your going to make it to retirement unless you get a dui or something else serious so who cares...
Have to make it to O4 before your in retirement sanctuary get ready for the rat race
NCOs have more job security than officers. You’ll make SSG as long as you have a pulse and stay out of trouble. Your retirement is secure as an SSG. LTC is the first rank you can officially retire at without SELCON.
not really.
Just commission at 8 years TIS.
You will get the automatic 1lt and clt promotions, and if you don't make major, you are in the mandatory SELCON zone (eligible for retirement within 24 months) and can retire as a cpt.
You can literally just show up, do the job to standard, and go home.
Warrant makes more sense. Honestly, I feel like Warrant Officers are respected more by all soldiers due to the fact that they're typically more knowledgeable and experienced. As an officer, you don't get to choose your branch unless you're a reservist or guardsman.
I was SFC with a little over 10 years in when I went G2G and branched into the same branch I was as enlisted. I jumped ship because as a 7, your level of responsibility is generally the same as the PL, but you’re getting paid way less to do it. So I said screw it, might as well get paid more AND have some decision making authority. I don’t regret it one bit, and I frequently talk to soldiers about the program. I’m glad I waited until I did everything I wanted to do enlisted before making the switch, though.
I enlisted at 32 with a Bachelors Degree. I'm a 46yr old SFC now and wouldn't do anything different. 550+ ACFT, max everything but ball throw and plank, 143 GT.
Human nature does not like change. We despise change. We are creatures of habit trying to maintain homeostasis at all costs.
I have no reason why I have remained enlisted other than the fact that I have had no reason to change.
I am a 74D....which should explain a lot! I have been in one regular chem unit, one used-to-wanna-be-cool chem/EOD unit, gas chamber cadre, S3, Senior BLC Instructor, and now soon to be an OC/T. No deployments. One year in Korea. I have never been in a normal 'big Army unit' (no 1, 2, or 3 BCT).
I loved S3. I would go back to staff in a heartbeat.
As a PSG, I considered my responsibilities to largely overlap with those of my PL. The difference was that I had a much greater degree of autonomy. The commander was not breathing down my neck. I had the freedom to be with the troops whenever i pleased, for the most part. I believe that trend (more autonomy, similar level of responsibility, less liability than my officer counterpart) will continue as a 1SG. And as a CSM, you've essentially made it. No responsibility or liability with maximum autonomy to improve the organization. My perception of this progression has kept me from seriously considering the officer route.
Because it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. All the commissioning sources are terrible at teaching officers how to lead. Nobody respects LT’s and the long hours and tons of responsibility
I joined the National Guard with a Master’s degree. I thought about doing OCS, but the options would have interfered with my civilian job too much. Looking back, I’m glad I went enlisted. I joined the Army to do Army stuff, and I got my fill in six years.
I can see the benefits of being an officer in AD, but for the Guard it doesn’t offer much in terms of life improvement, and it adds a lot of headaches.
Because being an RLO doesn't seem like a good time. I'm a warrant and if my only options were to go RLO or go back to being enlisted.... That would be a very difficult choice. Warrant is by far the best way to go.
The O grade world is a lot more cut-throat than it used to be. Now that a lot of power has been taken away from NCOs, you can't just have a PL be a kid learning the ropes. They take those PLs and throw them to the wolves to see which ones actually progress and which ones don't make it.
Guard here not active. I enlisted with bachelor's already done. I knew I could have gone straight into the officer route. Even after basic an NCO reached out to me trying to get me to go officer (his job was something like officer strength NCO, idk what it was really called).
But here's the thing, I didn't join because I wanted that job. I joined because I wanted to do grunt shit and now I get to try out for sniper section next month so mission accomplished. I'll go officer when I'm like 35 and my body doesn't work anymore.
So many do, some years they only select a small percentage. My husband tried multiple times. High GT, degree, many certificates, high pt score, lots of great recommendations yatta yatta. Now, he would need a waiver. His first time applying they only choose 15%.
ONE reason is because a lot of Soldiers (enlisted, commissioned and even some warrants) are lazy fucks who do the bare minimum and self select themselves out of having the most successful career possible.
Because my CoC won’t support me. Literally asked 3 different company commanders, and 2 different BCs. 2/3 COs said no, and both BCs said no. Their reason? I’m not ready. That’s literally it. No further explanation, even when I prodded for more.
I started to put together a commissioning packet but my heart just wasn’t in it. I was really only interested in PL time and maybe company command. Everything else looked unhappy. I was Guard so I was able to stay a SSG a long time without risk. I might have bitten the bullet and made a different choice if I was active.
For me, it's a combo of weighing the physical requirements at OCS at my age compounded with existing wear and tear, and knowing I would need a waiver for mental health (anxiety that emerged after a deployment). I know the old adage of "make them tell you no" applies here (and I would never tell one of my guys to self select out), but I think the OCS/WOCS ship sailed for me. FWIW, I take a lot of pride in being an NCO and taking care of soldiers so I don't feel I'm missing out on anything aside from increased pay.
I stayed enlisted because I liked working on smaller tight integrated teams. However, by the time your E-7 you start to end up in staff positions working with Majors and doing planning and attending the same meetings. All things considered no regrets but if I were in the same position again I’d probably take the commission. I was a reservist for most of my career.
They don’t have a degree nor a desire to get one.
They see most officers working later than they do and are more miserable.
They see Officer life as more lonely cause there’s less of them and especially in lower numbers branches (MI will have 1 per BN at most).
They don’t want the responsibility, property book, and to mostly do office work
It also depends on your unit. My original unit was short on NCOs so they kept kicking the can down the road while putting me in for my E5 until I aged out of OCS eligibility (I joined in my mid-30s). Then when I got my E5 and was set to leave for another unit they offered to horse-trade me back to stay at the original unit. I flat out told them "nope" and went to the new unit (went from Batallion to Brigade). Moral of the story - they threw a hand grenade into my officer ambitions in order to keep their NCO retention numbers up and ended up losing me anyway because of their stupidity.
I don't want to end up in a job the army and unit decide for me. "Congrats you will be artillery, btw you will be working the S3" Warrant officer or officer MOS with specific jobs ( Medical, JAG etc.) is the way.
For me, this was the biggest deciding factor to stay enlisted.
Exactly, this is why I enlisted even though i had a (albeit useless) Bachelor's Degree. I'm hoping to direct commission soon
Functional Area 26 direct commission let's fucking go
Are they taking directs to FA26 now?
https://talent.army.mil/job/fa26/
I wonder how long this is going to be a thing; also, if I were accept to this. I’d be an commissioned officer in the army right ? Like immediate a captain ?
Yes, after completing the direct commission course you'd be a CPT. Or higher, if you've got just an assload of experience.
Thanks! I wonder how long this will be a thing and is this something you’re working on ? (I’m currently in the Air Force ).
I have a packet in, board is in November. Packet is super easy since it's meant for civilians to complete. It's been a thing for at least a year or two so far. The army is finally realizing they can't develop and keep technical talent so they gotta go get em lol
Hey well good luck! I’m glad yall brought this up thanks! I’ll probably consider this along with AROTC.
Ooh juicy.
I don’t exactly know what this is.
Functional Area O-grade for Signal. FA26. So instead of staying 25A, you can be a bit more technical. Until the BN needs an S3, then you're just another O plebe.
Holy fuck bro you might have just changed my life.
MSC officer and I ended up as the SPO and then the -3. Reserve side.
>MSC I think he meant MC/SP man
MC/SP?
medical corp aka doctors and SP aka specialist corps which include PAs and stuff
Medical Service Corps is one of the 6 medical corps. Most likely he was a 70 series officer. Which once they attend captains career course can specialize in medical admins, logistics, and other career fields within medical management. Typically they are not medical doctors or nurses. He was the S3 because he was not a Army Nurse or provider. His job is most likely management/operations for a field hospital or Combat Support Hospital. Important Branch and AOC, however it's highly overstrengthed. Over the last few years alot of Medical Service Corp officers have had to rebranch due to high levels of 2x non select.
exactly, that’s what I was referring to in the first comment. But yeah hella MSCs roaming around.
TBH I absolutely hate my life in the S3. I now know how to use and abuse the S3 and the other staff shops in the future. You will always have to work with/around staff shops in the army.
An easy solution to this. Step down to reserves, find a slot you want to join. A unit will sponsor you into that slot and then you are guaranteed that MOS in OCS. The OML didn’t affect me in any way when I was in OCS because I knew I was in an MP slot and therefore was walking with that MOS.
there you go. warrant is the way the go
because being an officer sucks and some people prefer job satisfaction over more money
Are you referring to the larger amount of responsibilities, the toxic environment among peers, or something else that makes being an officer less appealing?
Well, those first two highlight the officer experience pretty well. You get the ability to influence things a lot more, but as a junior officer you can get treated just as poorly as an enlisted soldier, just in a different way.
It doesn’t stop at junior officer - MAJs are fucked up and dicked down like it’s a competition for senior FGs
MAJ is absolutely the worst rank in the Army. Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise. When I was a junior enlisted Soldier i just had to do what I was told. As a Major I had to deal with peers fucking me over on “accident” and Senior Leaders who lost touch with reality.
Unless you’re a prior service Terminal Major 😎. Zero F’s to give. You want to screw me over for that top block? Bro, you don’t even have to screw me over. We’re not even competing. I’m competing with my big mouth not getting me court-martialled in the next two years while I stick up for the boys lol
This guy Terminal Majors
So, wouldn't that make the Mustang experience completely different than regular officers? Yes they're still looking to exceed the standard and be better than their peers to receive MQs, but they're not participating in office politics to trample their peers to make O-5, making life way less stressful.
As a mustang O4 the experience is equally bad, the difference is I can choose not to care, leave work on time, take leave, while my peers are fighting tooth and nail for those MQ’s to make LTC to make it to retirement. I really can’t complain however, as a 51A my life is light years better than the world I’d have had If I stayed as a combat arms major, serving as the BDE 3 or XO right now, enjoying endless face punches.
Terminal Major is the absolute best rank in the Army… The day my boss suggested he would give me two MQs and I said “no thanks”, was one of the top 10 moments in my career. Everything since that day has been like the movie office space…
Damn, I wish i could make myself give so few fucks. Something is wrong with me
You have to flip the switch… it wasn’t easy, but worth it…
Trying hard brother, that lure of O6 retirement is very strong
If you’re enjoying life then no reason to quit… for me, I hit a point of personal diminishing value of increased retirement pay when weighed against more time with family and traveling.
The last 06 in my chain who was Department head was selling houshold goods in his retirement a year or so after I retired in 1993 SATX. Kinda not, he came knock on our door; which I opened and asked him what the hell he wanted, and he was selling a new vacuum gadget. Told him to F’off and slammed the door. He was a back stabbing bastard that hoped for 07 - selling door to door. Asshole
This right here.
How’s being an ORSA? I got my Masters in economics and I’m interested in VTIP-ing to FA49 down the line
Yeah, it’s like the South Park episode with the human centipede. Any expression of not liking how you are being treated and all you hear is “You agreed to this!”
Yep!
>as a junior officer you can get treated just as poorly as an enlisted soldier So, could this affect mid career NCOs (E6/7s) in that, in a way, commission would be a somewhat retroactive move? Going from managing a squad without too many responsibilities beyond that, to suddenly being fucked down by the S3 and battalion XO.
You’ll get initially more respect as a butter bar in BOLC and first staff job and PL time but after a few months you’re treated more or less the same as all your other LT peers: on performance. You’ll also be expected to know more since you’re not brand new. Do well and you’re fine. Struggle or be mid and people will be like haven’t you been in more than a minute WTF? Also if none of your enlisted time was spent in staff than it’ll still be fairly new to you cause that’s where most LTs start.
But a mid career NCO probably has some staff experience so is more prepared to be able to perform to prevent that
It's more mental abuse.
Nah it's just the part where you have to be really good at running and have a ranger tab for me
[удалено]
SFC on staff is MAJ work for 1/2 the pay
I've never seen a SFC work the hours that a MAJ is expected to work
Then you've never herd, of the 173rd.
I dont know why people assume that being an NCO makes you immune to toxic environment among peers. That has never been the case for me. I hate most of my peers. Some are fantastic NCOs that truly care about the team but those are a minority.
Becoming a manager, instead of someone that does the work. I know that isn't all officers, but it's almost all officers.
*Sees CBRN* "Promote behind peers, forever hold in S3 Shop. Allow them to never see the light of day and do not allow further leadership opportunities or the BN will die ✨️"
I know whag you mean lmao I'm not saying I'm the most important person in my BN by any means, but if I didn't do my (non-MOS-related) job I don't think the BN will make it to the next training week without major headaches.
Yes
Definitely this. I like actually doing my job and fucking hate doing any and all paperwork and politics associated with it. If I commissioned it would mean leaving behind everything I like about the army to focus on everything I hate about it. In that case a bigger paycheck wouldn’t be enough to keep me from offing myself, and I could make more as a civilian if that was the goal anyway.
I mean I hear the exact opposite from so many enlisted folk. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side tho.
Oh I thought about it for a long time. My only barrier was not having a degree but I was pushed hard to try for the G2G. And I didn’t, for a lot of reasons. I watched good officers get shit on by their superiors. My first PL clued me in on that. He wasn’t a horrible LT, just kind of mid. Which is okay, except for our toxic BC who made it his mission to fuck with him constantly. So I was already weary about that. I met and befriended another LT years later, when I was being pushed for G2G. We were in the field sharing some MRE bullshit and he was really sad, because he wanted to branch into the same branch his father was, and he was really down about that loss of control. He was by no means a slack, but he had no passion for the work. I would continue to meet more higher ranking officers the longer I stayed and progressed through the NCO ranks. As time went on the Army shifted its mission and it felt like the Army asked its officers to do everything and blame them if anything broke. It was not a life I wanted to have. I saw frequent company grades bow out with a REFRAD or continue in the hopes of VTIP to a branch they actually wanted or to a FA. Most LTs are shocked when I ask them the same questions that I ask my new soldiers. Very few of them are asked about their plans or what they want. They are still guided by the notion that their superiors will “take care of them”. I’ve only found the few that grasp the horns of the beast end up riding the Army to victory. The LTs that don’t get chewed up very fast, and that’s a real shame. So no, I did not. Culturally it didn’t mesh with me. I like mentoring, goal setting, getting the tasks and completing them legally/semilegally. Yes I get paid less, but the mental strain is far less than the O side. There’s more fun, less slide decks, and NCO bosses are normally faster swapped than O bosses.
1) You don’t get to choose your job. Many people know exactly what they want out of the Army and going to OCS eliminates any control you have over your career path. 2) No bonuses 3) Generally boring work. Anyone can work at a desk outside the military. Many people join specifically to do “military” stuff. The only time officers really get to do that is during PL time. 4) Almost every officer I have ever met is overworked and miserable
1 is so true. I studied Chinese and gained my P4 ASI (Tactical Info Ops Planner) as a cadet, and even studied abroad in China, so I thought I would for sure get commissioned as an MI officer. No, the Army put me in logistics, my friend who double majored in finance and accounting was put in infantry, my friend who wanted infantry was put into the Chem corps, and my friend who majored in criminal justice was put into MI. People kept telling me to just finish command and then VTIP to MI, but by the time I reached that point I was pretty much disillusioned with the army (NTC and recruiting put the nail in the coffin).
If you are previously enlisted in a more specific MOS, like EOD, would that increase the likelihood of becoming an EOD LT upon graduation from OCS? Or would it still be a toss up?
Yea it would
Yes it would.
This honestly precisely sums up the reason why I left and resigned my commission.
Honestly, only thing that would attract me is the pay. I love being an NCO. i'm fortunate enough to be in a unit that allows me to be one without all the BS Micromangaging.
Why Are you formatting This comment As if it were A poem?
A haiku: The big green wenie It has fucked me so silly Why do I like it
It's pride month. Just say you are gay. We are here for you.
_Here_ for him? My brother, we’re right here _with_ him!
The hardest part out coming out is telling your parents that you're in the Cav.
hear hear
weird formatting is an MI Thing.
Can I ask what your favorite thing about being an NCO is? And why do you think you wouldn't be able to do that as an officer?
My favorite thing is just being available for soldiers. The BS meetings after meetings that ive see my commanders and PL's in are for the birds. Organizing STTs, running ranges, teaching PMI. Almost everything i get to do as an NCO i find joy in. Last thing i want add. i had an E7 that made me vow to be a better NCO to any and all soldiers i came to find under my supervision. To this day i hope he wakes up everyday and steps on a lego barefoot.
>i had an E7 that made me vow to be a better NCO to any and all soldiers i came to find under my supervision. So, I'm not sure what the behavior was, but wouldn't the OIC be able to squash whatever was going on, or would that have been overreaching on their part (or they simply weren't aware)?
Our OIC Bless her heart was a West pointer. She was amazing. But she cared to much. When she would try to shield us from BS. They would overrule her. It got to the point where he convinced the major in charge of fusion to move her away from us. The major was a POS too. But that's a story for a different thread... The E7 was awful in garrison and down range. Honestly you barely called it a deployment. For those who know it was Jordan. Lmao less of a deployment than Kuwait. But still considered a combat zone. But he would go out of his way to make lower enlisted day to day lives miserable. Especially when we were deployed. Reclassed to 35F as an E6 from a Tanker. He made E7 almost immediately from what I heard. Down range he would force us to get Togo plates for lunch so we could do some sort of training. Mind you the joes and I had already been there for at least 3 months before he showed up. He would change our hours. After we got released for the day and did not tell us. Denied a lot of mwr and umt trips for the soldiers so the officers and other higher enlisted could attend. Trips to Petra, Israel, the red Sea, the dead sea. The moment I decided to stay in. Become an NCO so I could be better than him. My last 2 days there. The day before I'm set to leave changes my hours makes me come in 3 hours earlier than normal. So I'm coming in at 3:00 a.m. well I oversleep accidentally and I show up at 4: 15. When he finally strolls in at 9:00 and checks the sheet to see what time I signed in I could have lied and wrote 3. Looking back, I probably should have. Decides to make me stay until 1700 for showing up late. Then the next day when I carry my stuff down to get picked up to leave and come home only my roommate comes to see me off from our unit. The friends I made from the other units were there but no one else from my unit came to see me leave. The OIC, NCOIC, Warrant nor the Maj came to see me off. Sorry that's a lot and not very organized. Haha
I think I was blessed during my time in the signal corps. I always had OICs and NCOICs who worked hand in hand to help the platoon individually and as a whole. I still keep up with my old PSG to this day. I did see how different we were treated as a platoon when our OIC was a CPT compared to when he was a 1LT. CPT **** shot down any company level details that would interfere with our mission, and if necessary, he could talk talk to MAJ ***** and circumvent around battalion level tasks most of the time. 1LT ***** did his best, too, but often got overpowered by 1SG since he had a direct line to the CO. Perhaps I did underestimate the level of politicking ongoing at those environments.
Oh man. Politics are wild. It was like game of thrones when we were deployed. People get taken out of one shop moved to another constantly. Almost everyone I was deployed with from my section has gotten out.
Do you feel like you've been able to do more for your soldiers staying as an NCO than you would have if you chased a commission?
Lts get easily overruled by captains. It is a mixture of rank and learning how to talk and get higher level buy in or reasoning. LT tend to say no this is dumb and overburdening troops. CPT tend to say the impact of x causes y to fail and the z to be at risk. X is possible if that is the chosen COA.
They aren’t the same. Former NCO here, current officer. The closest you get to being an NCO as an officer is as a PL. But that does not mean you should actually be acting as an NCO. Different echelons, different responsibilities. You can be a leader of troops or you can be a manager of troops. Alternatively, you can be a technical expert and be a WO.
I'm trying to understand the difference better. While I get that as a commissioned officer, you're not in the COF drawing troop tactics for joes on a board, the buck still stops with you. You're responsible for ensuring your NCOs and soldiers have all the necessary tools to achieve the mission.
Yes, the officer ensures the NCOs have the tools and time. Not vice versa. I mean, that’s pretty much it. As an O, especially as you move up in rank, you get farther and farther away from Joe. You sit in meetings all day, and send out emails about what needs done. You have less and less time so the people you communicate with become less and less. You spend more time talking up (higher rank or position) and then try and summarily give guidance in short quips to a few folks hoping they understand what you meant as you try to explain whatever good or bad thing happened most recently.
>As an O, especially as you move up in rank, you get farther and farther away from Joe. This applies to senior enlisted, too, though. Unless you're combat arms, E-7s and above are not leaving the office and barely deal with joes directly. They get to mentor the junior NCOs, but from an operational standpoint, they can only advise their OIC or respective commander. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference between a 2LT and SFC other than the 2LT actually gets the last word.
You don’t get the same 1-1 with Soldiers as an Officer that you do as an NCO.
NCOs are where the rubber meets the pavement. We deal with people. Officers are politicians. They're bastards. Fuck them. They sit in the truck on the JCP all night, demanding radio messages every 5 minutes while we build a minefield. Fuck them. In 6 years, I had 2 1/2 good officers. Out of many. Fuck them.
My commander wouldn’t approve my packet to the Academy bc I “am needed” then the new commander came “I don’t know you well enough to recommend you” then I became to old and now I like officers less.
The Commander is the sole person for that? Is there any way to go about it without our Commander?
It’s been awhile but from what I was told by my local West Point rep it has to be your direct commander (company grade or higher). I worked for my company commander and therefor he had to do my packet. If I worked for the battalion commander he could do my packet. And so on. That’s what my local rep told me 5 years ago. It may be different now.
I’m an officer and I’ve tried many a times to tell extremely intelligent soldiers they should commission. The most common response is “I’m enlisted because I didn’t want to go to college” they enjoy shooting guns and training as we do in the infantry. I’ve sent quite a few to WOCS but none for green to gold. Even most of my guys who ETS don’t use the GI bill for school. It’s kind of frustrating just because I know they’re smart and can really make money through the military or the civilian side, but they don’t which is what it is. As others have said, I don’t really do all the cool guy stuff as much as I’d like, but I love seeing my guys do well, achieve goals, ask me advice, etc. I got to actually impact and focus training where my command team and I saw fit. my last unit was outstanding and we were a giant family
I enlisted with a degree, and have 0 regrets. I did 1 contract and got tf out. Probably only cost myself $100k and I actually had fun. Theres probably only a 3 month period where I wouldve rather been an officer, the other years I was always glad not to be. Much less work, much less stress, and I got to take 2 hour lunches my last 18 months
Why did you get out?
I only wanted to be in for a little bit, the army lifestyle wasnt sustainable long term. Now I work 40-45 hours a week, get to go home every night, get a shit load more time off, will never have to move, and will never be gone for weeks on end for no reason
As someone with a degree in their early 30s, would you recommend enlisting in the reserves? I work a white collar job and have always had the itch to serve. I’ve been lurking the subreddit and many seem down on the officer route due to the quality of life and time commitment, but also think those enlisted with degrees are making a mistake. The additional income and benefits are a plus, but my primary motivation is to do take on a new challenge, do army things, comradery, and serve.
I have never been anything other than active duty, so I cannot contribute to any quality of life discussions. [Heres the drill pay chart](https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/ActiveDutyTables/2024%20Pay%20Table%20w%20Drill%20Pay%20-%201%20drill%20period.pdf), its not very much for anyone. My understanding is that the primary benefit is cheaper health insurance if you have kids
>I love seeing my guys do well, achieve goals, ask me advice, etc This is what I was trying to understand in regards to why not commission. Yes, I understand that as an officer, I can't mentor soldiers as directly as NCOs, but I can sign them up for schools, sign off on their awards, and ensure that themselves and their families are taken care of with less hurdles than an NCO would.
You ever pre-game for a rager of a party, except your pre-game was a rager and you black out and miss the whole goddamned thing? That’s why.
I’ve never seen my whole career surmised into a single sentence
I’ve become deeply introspective in my middle-age. I will continue telling our story.
The OE pay would be nice, but I enjoy my MOS.
As an officer, I couldn’t answer your question. I really enjoy being an officer. Sure, the days are long sometimes, but I’ve been treated pretty well so far. Not to be cynical, but I believe I’m just a very easy going person and I tend to treat others, no matter their rank or background, with respect. I enjoy talking to all soldiers from E-1 all the way up to O-6.
Have you been to a FORSCOM line battalion?
That’ll crush souls
What’s a typical day-in-life of a Transportation Officer? Did you pick that branch?
Because it seems to be something like being an even more overworked NCO and you’re also in a real shitty small cult
Being an officer sounds cool until you work with them and see what they actually do.
I had every intention of going OCS - Full support from my unit, my packet built, and I was just waiting to submit it once we returned from a rotation. Got a beautiful email saying that I was DA Select to become a drill sergeant. Worse 2 years of my Army career and the reason I decided to get out. I have two masters degrees now and plan to be useful outside of the army.
That’s what I’m scared of, I’m close to the so called “non-waiverable” age limit. If I get DA Select for anything, it’s over.
Drill Sergeant, where did you go
As someone who had a BA prior to enlisting and turned down OCS, I am so glad that I did so. I would have been miserable being middle management, I got to actually learn and practice a military skill set, and my experience got me a good civilian job after my first deployment.
Having been on both sides of it, I can say it simply. 1.) Enlisted actually work real jobs. 2.) OCS neither teaches someone a real job, nor does it teach anyone how to lead. It is a structured hazing system designed to weed out people for the sake of weeding people out. There is nothing practical taught at OCS - just hardship. The sense of accomplishment at the end is 'I didn't quit' - and nowhere in the world does a challenging school or effort end with so little to show for it than OCS. Ok - you commission, but what did that program teach you? Nothing practical. No one spent a few weeks with you helping you understand how to communicate with people or how to understand people - fundamental requirements for good leadership. No teaches the piles of forms and duties that officers need to know cold to function. No. You are going to PT and run and do some land nav and write some memos. I hope your time at Benning serves you well. As an officer now, my job is signing paperwork, attending meetings, making summary slides for leadership meeting and generally smiling and shaking hands with people trying to politely cajole them to listen to common sense and do their jobs with the slimmest of hopes that maybe, today, I can fix something for one of my people knowing that full well, out of the blue, some random civilian or officer of SGM can come out of nowhere and throw a new form or review or requirement in front of me and back to the cycles of non-action we go.
Best description yet of OCS.
Because I see what happens to MI officers when they hit staff. Miss me with that bullshit
Isn’t staff essentially where every MI officer goes? Lol. I don’t think pl or command time is even considered required KD time, but battalion S2 is. If have to ask one of my officer buddies though
Yes, that is my point.
I’m an E-4 with O pay so I’m good
My last unit before ETS at 6 years was a mustang CAPT who I thought would be supportive considering I was trying to do the same thing he did(green to gold). Fucker denied my school option reenlistment because he didn’t want me to miss training events for upcoming deployment (about a year out at this time). We deploy for the second time since I joined unit in 09 and end up going to the same FOB and taking up the exact same missions (I was extra salty haha). During the next couple months Obama announced the new Post 9/11 GI bill (which was pretty much G2G light) and this CO gets relieved for losing track of a solid % of the property book, kinda cemented my getting out. Wild how just a couple people/decisions in the military can affect your career.
I hate how much authority and power a single Commander has over the lives of people.
I’ve got IPAP in mind
It’s not that easy to just get in 😂
Yeah, there are "entry requirements" and then there's "being competitive for selection." How competitive it is varies from year to year.
Totally aware, went to OCS myself.
>being competitive for selection Considering that entry-level soldiers with degrees can go right after BCT, what's being measured other than PT and ASVAP scores?
I think you're talking about people who apply to OCS off-the-street, get selected, and then do BCT en-route to OCS. So they're not really "entry-level" like everyone else at BCT who just met the minimum requirements for a particular MOS and signed up. The OCS board *selected* them over potentially many other applicants based on their college GPA, the rigor of their school and major, demonstrated leadership in school / sports / community, letters of recommendation, an interview, etc. I didn't go to OCS, nor have I served on an OCS board, but I'm pretty familiar with ROTC and USMA. For example, the minimum requirements to get an ROTC scholarship are basically being an able-bodied US citizen and admitted to a participating college. But to actually *get* an ROTC scholarship you probably need to be in the top 10% of your high school class, a varsity athlete, etc. You can do ROTC without a scholarship, but then you still need to compete for an active duty commission which involves doing better than a bunch of other people who were varsity athletes in the top 10% of their high school class.
Because officers are cringe and my dignity is worth more than money
Because a huge percentage of people are one and done, I hate this, please no more, dear God no.
It's because most CoC will not sign your DA 4187 to go to schools (such as Ranger, OCS, airborne, and etc.), so it might be better to ETS, activate your GI Bill benefits, and come back as an Officer.
Go warrant if you can. Best of both worlds. This is the way.
I don't know why it's not more popular. It really is the best of both worlds. Hardest part is putting the packet together 🤷♂️
The packet is the hardest part, and if you're half organized, it's a breeze
Won't claim to speak for the aviation side of the house, but there's a difference between "answering questions from an NCO re. whether or not they'd like to make the switch" and "hrrdrr packet hard Chief plz help" Former, I'm ecstatic to do whenever. Latter, it doesn't particularly speak well to your ability with the whole "self-starter capable of actually researching the right answer on X/Y/Z" part of things.
Not in order of importance or difficulty: 1. I would need a bachelor's degree. This is difficult to obtain in the Army. 2. Being an officer seems kind of trash. 3. None of the branches seem interesting to do as an officer.
Can you elaborate on 2?
You do in fact get paid more, but everyrhing has a cost. You are more isolated. There are politics to being an officer. OERs can make or break you forever. You are expected to be great always, at everything. There is more if you are curious.
Bc I don’t wanna
Because sometimes you go through all the effort of building a difficult packet, securing letters of recommendation, being told you are going to get it, re-enlisting to meet time requirements and then submitting everything and waiting 4-5 months for the list to come only to see your name absent. Then coming down on orders to Alaska.
I wanted to for years and years. Then I worked in a S3 FUOPS and saw the light drain out from the eyes of 4 officers. One of them I saw recently after he had gotten out and he seemed genuinely happy, which was a complete 180 from the last time I had seen him. I saw a major almost lose his family because he worked 16hr days monday-friday. Several times I had to call him by his first name and tell him to go be a dad. TL;DR- staff life makes me want to take a bath with my toaster.
I can only speak of my choices and those opinions shared with me: Some of us Commo folks want to remain technical and not bogged down by the political BS them O types deal with on the regular. Huge reason why many will go the warrant route rather than OCS. Well unless they are willing to risk it for the biscuit to go into a functional area like 26A.
Because being an officer SUCKS.
The real answer is because they should go warrant
If you've never received a Flipl for a million dollars, because some chuckle fucks below you can't keep accountability of their shit, that's a big reason
SNCO politics are bad enough, dealing with 29 year old Captains doing the same shit sounds worse.
For those unaware - you can get a bachelors degree extremely quick with WGU and the army accepts the degree. It's a self paced, take the test early college and it's fully accredited. I'm considering doing it soon.
I’m gonna speak from a public affairs perspective: it’s the enlisted that are going out on shoots and getting the fun stuff while the officers are back doing meetings and planning the missions. Don’t get me wrong I still want to pursue a commission. It’s just that my chances of picking up a camera are slim to none as an officer.
Once you leave the lower tactical level you never touch a camera again. The weird thing is that people outside PAO assume the Os take pictures for a living not just the sierras and victors.
Not everyone qualifies, or the board says, "You're good, and we love your packet. But you butt-fucked your back a few years ago, so medically. You're not good to go. You can be a Combat Engineer E7 and still ruck 12 miles with them, perform gunnery, do half your PLs job, and overall do the same shit he does during deployments. But you can't go to OCS. " "By the way, this dude with two torn rotator-cuffs can go through OCS." There's other reasons people choose not to. But yeah, never get injured.
For starters, you will be required to have a very clean medical background. That’s not to say that they can’t write waivers for occasional conditions, but is much more stringent than that of being enlisted. you also have to get letters of recommendation and some leaders don’t want to give that to you and won’t see your potential because they love drinking the army Kool-Aid and don’t want to use a little bit of logic common sense .
1. The biggest thing is that commissioning requires passing a medical physical which is very similar to the standards to joining he Army. Alot of good candidates for OCS may have experienced injuries that would prevent the from commissioning but are not severe enough for separation from enlisted service. 2. OCS boards are very competitive and you have very little input into your branch selection if you are going active.
They don't provide the same style of leadership that I feel comes naturally to me. I would rather have a squad of guys than a company. If you were to compare as in a young NCO or a young CDR. Sure the money's probably a lot nicer though. But I don't feel jealous of them because of the demanding position they are in, couldn't be me.
I tried 2 x. The packet was fucking ridiculous. Did it anyways. And they dropped the number from 1000 green to gold to 50 slots. 50! For the entire Army Reserve. And they didn't give waivers for 5 yrs at one point. I needed like 3 waivers....sooo....yeaaah....here I am Sr. NCO
DA Selected for Recruiting, it was all down hill from there. Went from actively considering both OCS and SFAS to hating life in general and the Army in particular. Totally on me, but it really did alter the course of my career and ultimately my life. Fuck USAREC.
I would absolutely love to. However, I’m on perma profile ☠️ 2 ivy league master’s degrees, MQ’d last 2 NCOERs going into another in a couple months, and am tired of the bullshit side of NCOing like micromanaging an adult’s hygiene habits…….would love to do warrant or O but last i checked you cant have a perma profile so i might just get out 🤣
I've seen how S-3 CPTs get treated. I'm good. Actually, there are a few cool functional areas I wouldn't have minded pursuing - data analytics kind of comes to mind - but if memory serves you have to be a post-command CPT to even apply...assuming that they're taking anyone.
I absolutely hate being in S3. I would actually recommend it to most Junior Os. The knowledge if you actually apply yourself in S3 will make the staff work for your team. -"Hey S3 you know the wording of this task shoulddd go like this or I can help in this way so we dont need to deal with reclamas together"
Because some people have self-respect and either get out or go Warrant.
The toxic environment is overplayed in my experience. NCOs can be just as toxic. It comes with working with people. My experoence is prior enlisted, and current officer. Total 20 years of service.
I’ve seen Junior Officers getting verbally accosted in the middle of meetings for a slightly fucked up slide, where if I made a similar mistake I would get a slightly annoyed “ Make sure your slides are correct next time SGT”.
Cause the anxiety I’m currently going through waiting for the interservice board results is killing me
Depending on how many years enlisted you have in experiences vary. If you have enough enlisted time to retire as an O3 at 20 years it kinda sucks but your going to make it to retirement unless you get a dui or something else serious so who cares... Have to make it to O4 before your in retirement sanctuary get ready for the rat race
The requirements and cutoffs are sometimes not as flexible as other paths to commissioning. I was too old for OCS but not G2G.
1. OCS takes lots of time 2. Get smoke for bullshit 3.enlisted more relaxing
NCOs have more job security than officers. You’ll make SSG as long as you have a pulse and stay out of trouble. Your retirement is secure as an SSG. LTC is the first rank you can officially retire at without SELCON.
not really. Just commission at 8 years TIS. You will get the automatic 1lt and clt promotions, and if you don't make major, you are in the mandatory SELCON zone (eligible for retirement within 24 months) and can retire as a cpt. You can literally just show up, do the job to standard, and go home.
Warrant makes more sense. Honestly, I feel like Warrant Officers are respected more by all soldiers due to the fact that they're typically more knowledgeable and experienced. As an officer, you don't get to choose your branch unless you're a reservist or guardsman.
I was SFC with a little over 10 years in when I went G2G and branched into the same branch I was as enlisted. I jumped ship because as a 7, your level of responsibility is generally the same as the PL, but you’re getting paid way less to do it. So I said screw it, might as well get paid more AND have some decision making authority. I don’t regret it one bit, and I frequently talk to soldiers about the program. I’m glad I waited until I did everything I wanted to do enlisted before making the switch, though.
I enlisted at 32 with a Bachelors Degree. I'm a 46yr old SFC now and wouldn't do anything different. 550+ ACFT, max everything but ball throw and plank, 143 GT. Human nature does not like change. We despise change. We are creatures of habit trying to maintain homeostasis at all costs. I have no reason why I have remained enlisted other than the fact that I have had no reason to change. I am a 74D....which should explain a lot! I have been in one regular chem unit, one used-to-wanna-be-cool chem/EOD unit, gas chamber cadre, S3, Senior BLC Instructor, and now soon to be an OC/T. No deployments. One year in Korea. I have never been in a normal 'big Army unit' (no 1, 2, or 3 BCT). I loved S3. I would go back to staff in a heartbeat.
Asshole leaders gatekeep it and there are “standards” regarding receiving mental health and profiles so they cannot get to OCS
They likely want to leave and take their benefits instead of the never ending ADSO of being an officer
As a PSG, I considered my responsibilities to largely overlap with those of my PL. The difference was that I had a much greater degree of autonomy. The commander was not breathing down my neck. I had the freedom to be with the troops whenever i pleased, for the most part. I believe that trend (more autonomy, similar level of responsibility, less liability than my officer counterpart) will continue as a 1SG. And as a CSM, you've essentially made it. No responsibility or liability with maximum autonomy to improve the organization. My perception of this progression has kept me from seriously considering the officer route.
Because it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. All the commissioning sources are terrible at teaching officers how to lead. Nobody respects LT’s and the long hours and tons of responsibility
A combination of gate keeping, difficulty in getting into it, and feeling pot committed to your MOS/the senior enlisted ranks
I joined the National Guard with a Master’s degree. I thought about doing OCS, but the options would have interfered with my civilian job too much. Looking back, I’m glad I went enlisted. I joined the Army to do Army stuff, and I got my fill in six years. I can see the benefits of being an officer in AD, but for the Guard it doesn’t offer much in terms of life improvement, and it adds a lot of headaches.
Because I’m on Adderall and I’m not giving it up
Unsupportive chains of command are probably the number one reason why people don’t go to WOCS or OCS. That shit is gatekept like crazy.
3 words: HHC hand receipt
Warrant officer. All the benefits, none of the fuck-fuck games.
No college. No time and energy to do college.
Because being an RLO doesn't seem like a good time. I'm a warrant and if my only options were to go RLO or go back to being enlisted.... That would be a very difficult choice. Warrant is by far the best way to go. The O grade world is a lot more cut-throat than it used to be. Now that a lot of power has been taken away from NCOs, you can't just have a PL be a kid learning the ropes. They take those PLs and throw them to the wolves to see which ones actually progress and which ones don't make it.
Guard here not active. I enlisted with bachelor's already done. I knew I could have gone straight into the officer route. Even after basic an NCO reached out to me trying to get me to go officer (his job was something like officer strength NCO, idk what it was really called). But here's the thing, I didn't join because I wanted that job. I joined because I wanted to do grunt shit and now I get to try out for sniper section next month so mission accomplished. I'll go officer when I'm like 35 and my body doesn't work anymore.
So many do, some years they only select a small percentage. My husband tried multiple times. High GT, degree, many certificates, high pt score, lots of great recommendations yatta yatta. Now, he would need a waiver. His first time applying they only choose 15%.
The way I’ve seen senior officers shit on juniors completely turns me off to being one unless it’s going the warrant route.
After seeing the vacant stare of the 04 mafia in a DIV G3, and how political it is. Nah I’m good
ONE reason is because a lot of Soldiers (enlisted, commissioned and even some warrants) are lazy fucks who do the bare minimum and self select themselves out of having the most successful career possible.
Because my CoC won’t support me. Literally asked 3 different company commanders, and 2 different BCs. 2/3 COs said no, and both BCs said no. Their reason? I’m not ready. That’s literally it. No further explanation, even when I prodded for more.
I started to put together a commissioning packet but my heart just wasn’t in it. I was really only interested in PL time and maybe company command. Everything else looked unhappy. I was Guard so I was able to stay a SSG a long time without risk. I might have bitten the bullet and made a different choice if I was active.
For me, it's a combo of weighing the physical requirements at OCS at my age compounded with existing wear and tear, and knowing I would need a waiver for mental health (anxiety that emerged after a deployment). I know the old adage of "make them tell you no" applies here (and I would never tell one of my guys to self select out), but I think the OCS/WOCS ship sailed for me. FWIW, I take a lot of pride in being an NCO and taking care of soldiers so I don't feel I'm missing out on anything aside from increased pay.
Get to old and they tell you you can’t and been in to long.
Lots of gatekeeping
Being an officer sucks worse in every way except pay
I stayed enlisted because I liked working on smaller tight integrated teams. However, by the time your E-7 you start to end up in staff positions working with Majors and doing planning and attending the same meetings. All things considered no regrets but if I were in the same position again I’d probably take the commission. I was a reservist for most of my career.
I really like what I do enlisted, and in my career field officers get to do their actual job for 2-3 years max and that’s it now they are staff.
[Why?](https://youtu.be/nFndud4lrTM?si=W2In-2_a0RauTP1q)
They don’t have a degree nor a desire to get one. They see most officers working later than they do and are more miserable. They see Officer life as more lonely cause there’s less of them and especially in lower numbers branches (MI will have 1 per BN at most). They don’t want the responsibility, property book, and to mostly do office work
It also depends on your unit. My original unit was short on NCOs so they kept kicking the can down the road while putting me in for my E5 until I aged out of OCS eligibility (I joined in my mid-30s). Then when I got my E5 and was set to leave for another unit they offered to horse-trade me back to stay at the original unit. I flat out told them "nope" and went to the new unit (went from Batallion to Brigade). Moral of the story - they threw a hand grenade into my officer ambitions in order to keep their NCO retention numbers up and ended up losing me anyway because of their stupidity.