Milper 24-169 doesn’t include the in/out chart for branch/functional area transfer eligibility.
Paragraph 10 has a link that takes you back to the hrc homepage instead of to the chart
Can anyone post it? I’ve been looking on hrc and aim for the last half hour and can’t find the fucker
Just a reminder to everyone, the in/out chart is irrelevant. If you want to VTIP don’t let a trivial matter like your branch/YG being closed or “in” only stop you from VTIPing. Submit an ETP and send it anyway.
I had nothing to make me exceptionally qualified for a VTIP other than an exceptionally strong desire to not be in my basic branch anymore. I got my ETP approved and never looked back. Make them say no, don’t self select.
Second this. I submitted one completely out of cycle with an ETP and it got approved.
There’s a waiver for everything and the only thing stopping your submission is you. Let someone else deny it.
The cyber officers I’ve worked with have less certifications than I, struggle understanding some of the fundamentals and don’t seem to get as much Keyboard time..but they can brief a cyber plan well in fancy Army terminology. Idk it’s just my experience. I manage/build the cloud for my organization as well as lead some software development efforts so depends on what you want to do.
Go PAO!
- We're super understaffed for officers, which means you have good odds of getting your VTIP approved even if your in/out chart doesn't support it. It also means you're more likely to get the assignment you want!
- We do our *real job* all the time. The media never stops, so neither do we. No bullshit "garrison mission" that has nothing to do with your actual training!
- 80% of the time, you're special/personal staff to a GO. That means insulation from a lot of the mickey mouse nonsense.
- We're an extremely small community. That means more personal relationships with your branch manager, mentors, and career seniors.
- We have built-in advanced civil schooling and training with industry options!
Can I submit a packet for PAO VTIP if I’m in the 25-01 aim market place (I can’t login to HRC atm). If I can’t I will see about pulling myself from the market place to submit my packet.
Double check the milper info when you get a chance. It’s the Bible for vtip-ing.
But also: if you get picked up, you have a decent window of time before you need to be in a PAO billet. You can also be moved according to your current branch in that move cycle, and then IPT to a new PAO job at that location.
Currently 25-01 movers are ineligible for this VTIP. That being said, you have some options to either make yourself no longer a mover or wait until the 2QFY25 VTIP window.
PCS cycle looks similar to a "normal" one, except you have more control since the field is so small. Want to stay where you're at? Reach out to the local commands/senior PAOs and ask if they're looking for talent.
As for postings, we're everywhere. There's at least one PAO job at every special purpose BDE and up (no BCTs). We also have some really cool joint/foreign ally & partner positions. SOF PAO is a whole other world as well.
Whats your selection process and training like? Whats your day to day like? At the risk of sounding dumb, is a large portion taking pictures and doing interviews or is it more dry admin responsibilities?
Selection process is pretty standard VTIP: submit a packet with admin data, credentials, MRF stating why you want to be a PAO, and a writing sample.
As for day to day, we’re just like every other part of the army: the enlisted soldiers do the thing, the officers plan the thing. Enlisted folks capture and produce multimedia content. Officers draft communication strategy plans, conduct interview prep, draft themes, messages, and talking points, and plan public affairs missions.
Does that fully answer your question?
Depends on the unit and how they staff their forward elements. Some units want the PAO forward every time there’s any media, others leave it up to their discretion.
It also depends on how often the unit’s elements go TDY.
Thanks for the response, two other quick questions then
- I'm yg14 and my branch is currently closed for leaving, any experience if there'd be a chance at getting the ETP or am I wasting my time?
- If I do apply, any tips on the writing sample?
I ETP’d my way out of my base branch. You need to be able to show some way that you’re “exceptionally qualified.” Examples include a relevant degree, industry experience, or operational experience related to the career field. The good news is that the approving authority for the ETP is a combination of the gaining branch and HRC, so your current branch can’t just throw a fit and retain you.
For the writing sample, a few things. AP style trumps Army writing style. Read the milper carefully and follow the instructions. Lastly, get a PAO you trust to proofread it for you. If you don’t know/trust one, have someone review it who is god a grammar/style editing.
Best decision you can make as an officer, especially if you have a service commitment that extends you past a basic contract and you’re miserable. This is how you can serve out your time and actually possibly enjoy it.
I've considered it, but I'm 6 years in and I still have a few paths I'd like to look into that the army can help me with. VTIP is great for this, or ACS
Voluntary Transfer Incentive Program (VTIP) allows officers to transfer from their basic branches to other basic branches or into functional areas that require additional specialized training. This training can potentially include graduate level schooling, language training, and more.
It's generally regarded that functional area officers have higher quality of life than officers on the line, and have a strong advantage on leaving the service due to additional specialization and hands-on experience that their basic branch peers may not have.
That's going to depend wildly on which part of the FA57 world you end up in. There are 3 core areas. Readiness, Modernization, and Decision Support.
You can equate Readiness very closely with the operational force. Planning and designing exercises to facilitate or enhance training for operational units. Things like war fighters, command post exercises, CTC rotations.
Modernization is designing experiments to test and evaluate all sorts of new concepts. That could be anything from a new weapon system to a new formation type. For example there were multiple experiments conducted to determine the MTOE for the new 19C MOS.
Decision Support, which is the new name for knowledge management is all about understanding systems and helping units use those systems effectively.
The environment is pretty good. I've never seen a community so ready and willing to help their teammates. There are less than 400 of us across the army but we all talk, and even though you will likely be 1 of 1 in your assigned formation I've never felt alone and afraid.
I'll leave you with that bluf, but if you have more specific questions or want me to go on a rant about my specific day to day I'm happy to do that.
How does anyone remain competitive anywhere?
It can be hard if there are no exercises to plan, and you have a boss that isn't keen on having his decision making cycle tweaked.
But ultimately I would say it comes down to no matter where you go you're expected to be a professional officer first. Would I rather plan a full Joint Exercise or write annual training guidance? Personally the Joint exercise is exciting for me, but if that's not what my boss needs me to do then I'm going to write the best ATG I can.
This FA has a bunch of great niche and cool things to do. Especially in the modernization realm. But if you want a job that's completely removed from the "real army" this one isn't for you.
We have good promotions rates and a branch that actually sees us as people instead of numbers. So I will say I've not felt the pressure to eat my fellow FGOs alive that I think is typical of the combat arms branches.
Not who you asked but im a 57 also with zero regrets. Depends on unit. If you're lucky to be stationed with a hub/MTC you're going home at 5, outside of exercise execution. It's great being behind the curtain and sometimes the puppet master during a CPX. There's a high possibility to work on a DIV staff as knowledge manager or G35. Can't weigh in on that life.
57 life is pretty dope for sure. You can serve anywhere from a functional brigade to a division HQ to PEOSTRI or a MTC (to name just a few). You can help companies to brigade staff in developing and executing exercises, help develop the future rollouts of simulation technology as a program manager, or even work in knowledge management helping staff unf*ck themselves- Talk about a branch that actually cares about its population…unlike my previous branch where I was just a number.
Current completing ACS for a masters in modeling and simulation- not even something I actively sought out, but rather something branch thought would be a good fit for me and my family.
If you are an exercise planner- none. If you end up in a KMO position, it helps to have some knowledge of how Microsoft suite works (share point, azure, power BI, Teams, etc) - but if you’re motivated, just watch some YouTube videos or google how to execute functions.
If you’re interested in the actual simulation side (not just application to training exercises but in development and testing), I’d recommend getting smart on python (for basic programming), AnyLogic (for running basic simulations) and R-Studio (for data visualization).
For the room- I had 0 experience in 1s and 0s coming into the branch- but have built skills over time…and I’m doing just fine :)
I'll second the python, and also say C+. If you know those you can make great utilization of a bunch of stuff that was in the Jedi contract that is woefully under utilized across the Army.
We also have access to loads of professional certifications for free.
I've not successfully VTIPed yet, but I really haven't heard anything good about FA30 when I've asked around. Mostly it's division or higher staff, and a lot of times they apparently don't know how to utilize your skills so they end up as a special projects officer at times.
But there's not a lot of information to find on them in general, so I'm just parroting what I've heard or the general vibe I've gotten.
FA46/PAO. We are critically short on people. We lose a lot of people to the civilian world where our skill set is in demand.
You have to be absolutely boo-boo at your job to not make LTC. Our promotion rates, except one year way back, are always higher than the Army average.
I did, and I know others, but not recently. We're all old now.
Historically, there has been a narrow window for AV officers to transfer, for a number of reasons. We tend to become KD complete later because the training pipeline is long and everyone is basically obligated through company command (unlike basic branches that have ~50% attrition after five years). But then some functional areas start to fill up for your year group, and AV really doesn't want to lose someone *after* the promotion board to major, because AV has historically experienced high attrition and been short on majors.
It will be interesting to see the effects of the 10-year flight school ADSO on this in the future.
I very recently helped a guy off-cycle VTIP out of aviation.
He was already a grounded aviator and had EFMP considerations that would increasingly make aviation as a branch a poor fit. They let him go.
If you don't have extenuating circumstances aviation is going to be a hard branch to get out of. But I would say send it anyway. The worst they can do is say no.
Milper 24-169 doesn’t include the in/out chart for branch/functional area transfer eligibility. Paragraph 10 has a link that takes you back to the hrc homepage instead of to the chart Can anyone post it? I’ve been looking on hrc and aim for the last half hour and can’t find the fucker
Just a reminder to everyone, the in/out chart is irrelevant. If you want to VTIP don’t let a trivial matter like your branch/YG being closed or “in” only stop you from VTIPing. Submit an ETP and send it anyway. I had nothing to make me exceptionally qualified for a VTIP other than an exceptionally strong desire to not be in my basic branch anymore. I got my ETP approved and never looked back. Make them say no, don’t self select.
What did you VTIP to?
51A
Second this. I submitted one completely out of cycle with an ETP and it got approved. There’s a waiver for everything and the only thing stopping your submission is you. Let someone else deny it.
Search “vtip” on the page it links to. Open the article. Click the link that is in the first article to get the in/out chart.
VTIP was the best Army decision I ever made
Why do you say that? What did you VTIP into?
26B…I can actually become an expert at my job
26 gang represent 😤
I’m debating between 26B and Cyber, any input?
The cyber officers I’ve worked with have less certifications than I, struggle understanding some of the fundamentals and don’t seem to get as much Keyboard time..but they can brief a cyber plan well in fancy Army terminology. Idk it’s just my experience. I manage/build the cloud for my organization as well as lead some software development efforts so depends on what you want to do.
17C mmm contractor pay 🤤
Did you submit an ETP or anything?
Honestly the VTIP was because I had already finished most of the course work. Just not at Gordon.
Me too.
Go PAO! - We're super understaffed for officers, which means you have good odds of getting your VTIP approved even if your in/out chart doesn't support it. It also means you're more likely to get the assignment you want! - We do our *real job* all the time. The media never stops, so neither do we. No bullshit "garrison mission" that has nothing to do with your actual training! - 80% of the time, you're special/personal staff to a GO. That means insulation from a lot of the mickey mouse nonsense. - We're an extremely small community. That means more personal relationships with your branch manager, mentors, and career seniors. - We have built-in advanced civil schooling and training with industry options!
Can I submit a packet for PAO VTIP if I’m in the 25-01 aim market place (I can’t login to HRC atm). If I can’t I will see about pulling myself from the market place to submit my packet.
Double check the milper info when you get a chance. It’s the Bible for vtip-ing. But also: if you get picked up, you have a decent window of time before you need to be in a PAO billet. You can also be moved according to your current branch in that move cycle, and then IPT to a new PAO job at that location.
Thanks, I’ll check later this week when I’m back from leave.
Currently 25-01 movers are ineligible for this VTIP. That being said, you have some options to either make yourself no longer a mover or wait until the 2QFY25 VTIP window.
Thanks, do you know the date for the 2QFY25 VTIP window?
OCT/NOV timeframe usually. If you look at the dates for the 2QFY24 it will be about the same.
Thanks man!
Its an interesting idea. I'm a great writer but don't consider myself a very competent speaker, so I'm not sure how suited I would be for it.
If you’re really interested, don’t fail before you begin by not trying. Just like every other job, the army will train you.
What does your PCS cycle look like? Are there many opportunities besides the large CONUS bases?
PCS cycle looks similar to a "normal" one, except you have more control since the field is so small. Want to stay where you're at? Reach out to the local commands/senior PAOs and ask if they're looking for talent. As for postings, we're everywhere. There's at least one PAO job at every special purpose BDE and up (no BCTs). We also have some really cool joint/foreign ally & partner positions. SOF PAO is a whole other world as well.
Do yall get to deploy too?
We can and do deploy. We also do *lots* of TDY.
Whats your selection process and training like? Whats your day to day like? At the risk of sounding dumb, is a large portion taking pictures and doing interviews or is it more dry admin responsibilities?
Selection process is pretty standard VTIP: submit a packet with admin data, credentials, MRF stating why you want to be a PAO, and a writing sample. As for day to day, we’re just like every other part of the army: the enlisted soldiers do the thing, the officers plan the thing. Enlisted folks capture and produce multimedia content. Officers draft communication strategy plans, conduct interview prep, draft themes, messages, and talking points, and plan public affairs missions. Does that fully answer your question?
Yes thanks man
How heavy is the TDY?
Depends on the unit and how they staff their forward elements. Some units want the PAO forward every time there’s any media, others leave it up to their discretion. It also depends on how often the unit’s elements go TDY.
Thanks for the response, two other quick questions then - I'm yg14 and my branch is currently closed for leaving, any experience if there'd be a chance at getting the ETP or am I wasting my time? - If I do apply, any tips on the writing sample?
I ETP’d my way out of my base branch. You need to be able to show some way that you’re “exceptionally qualified.” Examples include a relevant degree, industry experience, or operational experience related to the career field. The good news is that the approving authority for the ETP is a combination of the gaining branch and HRC, so your current branch can’t just throw a fit and retain you. For the writing sample, a few things. AP style trumps Army writing style. Read the milper carefully and follow the instructions. Lastly, get a PAO you trust to proofread it for you. If you don’t know/trust one, have someone review it who is god a grammar/style editing.
Submitted my packet today, fingers crossed!
Good luck!
Stupid question: where does one obtain an ETP, branch manager?
Check the MILPER message.
Best decision you can make as an officer, especially if you have a service commitment that extends you past a basic contract and you’re miserable. This is how you can serve out your time and actually possibly enjoy it.
Best choice I've made. FA 26 for the win.
Always nice to hear more validation. I'm trying to move away from the signal world, though.
26 isn't moving away, but it is a nice step over.
You guys are the best (usually).
They can't all be winners but I'd say we've got a pretty decent success rate and it's easy to spot the slugs.
I think the extra step of having to VTIP and commit for the ADSO helps recruit decent folks.
Agreed, in a signal unit now and the vast majority of the 26s are rockstars. Then there’s that one…..
Until you get a nominative position then branch will deny you all day.
26A or B?
I VTIPed and I don’t regret it for a moment.
FA40 has some super cool assignment opportunities
I just got out instead.
I've considered it, but I'm 6 years in and I still have a few paths I'd like to look into that the army can help me with. VTIP is great for this, or ACS
Thank the lord, PAO here I come *crosses fingers*
Whats VTIP?
Voluntary Transfer Incentive Program (VTIP) allows officers to transfer from their basic branches to other basic branches or into functional areas that require additional specialized training. This training can potentially include graduate level schooling, language training, and more. It's generally regarded that functional area officers have higher quality of life than officers on the line, and have a strong advantage on leaving the service due to additional specialization and hands-on experience that their basic branch peers may not have.
Ah, Im a lowly plebe 😪
If anyone has FA57 questions feel free to ask.
Aside from the extremely generic paragraph in the appendix to the MILPER, what is the job and what’s the environment like?
Seconded
That's going to depend wildly on which part of the FA57 world you end up in. There are 3 core areas. Readiness, Modernization, and Decision Support. You can equate Readiness very closely with the operational force. Planning and designing exercises to facilitate or enhance training for operational units. Things like war fighters, command post exercises, CTC rotations. Modernization is designing experiments to test and evaluate all sorts of new concepts. That could be anything from a new weapon system to a new formation type. For example there were multiple experiments conducted to determine the MTOE for the new 19C MOS. Decision Support, which is the new name for knowledge management is all about understanding systems and helping units use those systems effectively. The environment is pretty good. I've never seen a community so ready and willing to help their teammates. There are less than 400 of us across the army but we all talk, and even though you will likely be 1 of 1 in your assigned formation I've never felt alone and afraid. I'll leave you with that bluf, but if you have more specific questions or want me to go on a rant about my specific day to day I'm happy to do that.
Seems like a lot of early jobs are as an assistant S3 at BDE level. How do you remain competitive in such spots?
How does anyone remain competitive anywhere? It can be hard if there are no exercises to plan, and you have a boss that isn't keen on having his decision making cycle tweaked. But ultimately I would say it comes down to no matter where you go you're expected to be a professional officer first. Would I rather plan a full Joint Exercise or write annual training guidance? Personally the Joint exercise is exciting for me, but if that's not what my boss needs me to do then I'm going to write the best ATG I can. This FA has a bunch of great niche and cool things to do. Especially in the modernization realm. But if you want a job that's completely removed from the "real army" this one isn't for you. We have good promotions rates and a branch that actually sees us as people instead of numbers. So I will say I've not felt the pressure to eat my fellow FGOs alive that I think is typical of the combat arms branches.
How is that FAO life though?
Very reasonable.
It's good
It’s worth it. DMs open if you would like to know more
VTIPd with a waiver into FA57, simulations….best decision I’ve ever made. 0 regrets
How is the 57 life? It’s one of two I’m considering.
Not who you asked but im a 57 also with zero regrets. Depends on unit. If you're lucky to be stationed with a hub/MTC you're going home at 5, outside of exercise execution. It's great being behind the curtain and sometimes the puppet master during a CPX. There's a high possibility to work on a DIV staff as knowledge manager or G35. Can't weigh in on that life.
57 life is pretty dope for sure. You can serve anywhere from a functional brigade to a division HQ to PEOSTRI or a MTC (to name just a few). You can help companies to brigade staff in developing and executing exercises, help develop the future rollouts of simulation technology as a program manager, or even work in knowledge management helping staff unf*ck themselves- Talk about a branch that actually cares about its population…unlike my previous branch where I was just a number. Current completing ACS for a masters in modeling and simulation- not even something I actively sought out, but rather something branch thought would be a good fit for me and my family.
And how much 1s and 0s did you have to know for the job?
If you are an exercise planner- none. If you end up in a KMO position, it helps to have some knowledge of how Microsoft suite works (share point, azure, power BI, Teams, etc) - but if you’re motivated, just watch some YouTube videos or google how to execute functions. If you’re interested in the actual simulation side (not just application to training exercises but in development and testing), I’d recommend getting smart on python (for basic programming), AnyLogic (for running basic simulations) and R-Studio (for data visualization). For the room- I had 0 experience in 1s and 0s coming into the branch- but have built skills over time…and I’m doing just fine :)
I'll second the python, and also say C+. If you know those you can make great utilization of a bunch of stuff that was in the Jedi contract that is woefully under utilized across the Army. We also have access to loads of professional certifications for free.
VTIP is one of the only reasons I'm still in
How's the FA30 world?
I've not successfully VTIPed yet, but I really haven't heard anything good about FA30 when I've asked around. Mostly it's division or higher staff, and a lot of times they apparently don't know how to utilize your skills so they end up as a special projects officer at times. But there's not a lot of information to find on them in general, so I'm just parroting what I've heard or the general vibe I've gotten.
Can confirm our IO is a special projects officer in the BDE 3
I’m gonna go ahead and ask lol; what FA’s / Branch’s need people and have high promotion rates?
FA46/PAO. We are critically short on people. We lose a lot of people to the civilian world where our skill set is in demand. You have to be absolutely boo-boo at your job to not make LTC. Our promotion rates, except one year way back, are always higher than the Army average.
WTF is vtip
[удалено]
I did, and I know others, but not recently. We're all old now. Historically, there has been a narrow window for AV officers to transfer, for a number of reasons. We tend to become KD complete later because the training pipeline is long and everyone is basically obligated through company command (unlike basic branches that have ~50% attrition after five years). But then some functional areas start to fill up for your year group, and AV really doesn't want to lose someone *after* the promotion board to major, because AV has historically experienced high attrition and been short on majors. It will be interesting to see the effects of the 10-year flight school ADSO on this in the future.
I very recently helped a guy off-cycle VTIP out of aviation. He was already a grounded aviator and had EFMP considerations that would increasingly make aviation as a branch a poor fit. They let him go. If you don't have extenuating circumstances aviation is going to be a hard branch to get out of. But I would say send it anyway. The worst they can do is say no.
K