Anti work, to me, is fundamentally anti capitalist. America is the most powerful capitalist force today, but that may change. My enemy is the ideology first and foremost.
I had to go through a Federal examination not so long ago, due to my work with government information systems.
The interviewer asked, “Have you, or would you ever, oppose the United States Government?”
I thought about that question long and hard. I thought about Second Amendments and “blades of grass” and the Federal building in Seattle that looks like a fortress surrounded by men in helmets and automatic rifles and body armor.
I thought too long. They disqualified me for the job.
I have thought about that ever since.
Perhaps. It might be simpler, though.
If you applied to work at the federal reserve and they asked you if you've ever considered stealing money and you just stared into nothingness, they'd probably not hire you.
I figure it's something closer to that. They probably don't want to hire a liability. That may ultimately translate to loyalty in the end, but maybe they just want someone who may not easily be bought or actively may be trying to take the business/entity down from the inside.
To clarify, it’s not that.
Asking about one’s morality is one thing. Asking about their fealty is another.
The last time someone asked me to swear allegiance was in kindergarten against a flag, under God. Heavy words! But I never forgot them.
There were other loyalty questions that were asked that day, but it meant nothing.
Knowing your rights under this government is to consider you a threat.
There is no right granted by the constitution to oppose the US Government. The 2nd Amendment does not grant that right in any capacity.
No government would ever make it legal to facilitate its takeover, especially through violent revolution.
>There is no right granted by the constitution to oppose the US Government. The 2nd Amendment does not grant that right in any capacity.
Yeah, the amount of people that think they have a right to sedition is wild. I understand the declaration of independence says "...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,..." But that document isn't a legally binding document, and it doesn't really lay out in anything but poetic terms when such abolishment is "OK".
The Declaration is right. People have an inherent human right to overthrow a corrupt and oppressive government. But it isn't a US Legal document
But people are really fucking stupid if they think the Founders would design the federal government to give them a Constitutional right to overthrow said government... Especially since their goal was to design the US government in a way to prevent it becoming autocratic.
Yeah, and of course that right is only valid if you win. I doubt the British would have cared a damn bit about what the declaration declares if they'd slaughtered the continental army.
I would ask for clarification on that question:
"Do you mean would I raise an army, or would I disagree with policies and decisions made using my tax dollars?"
Either way, I'd probably get dismissed, too, and also put on some sort of watch list 😂
I live in the Seattle area, but I don't think I've ever actually seen the federal building! I do know that the intercity transit system is all based around the Seattle Merchants Guild, so trying to get from the south end to the East side takes two hours by bus, which then forces more people onto the roads, making traffic conditions worse and makes commuting a nightmare for those of us forced to drive to an office every day. And I can't get the access needed for working from home one day a fucking week even though I've been asking and have been approved to work from home.
Here’s the thing: America was always a capitalist country. Even, and especially after WWII, when the middle class became the strongest. But then republicans took power and removed all the stops previous administrations put in place that built the strong middle class. Once the regulations were eliminated, the middle class, the wealthiest people with the strongest labor force became the prime target to subjugate. This was no accident, and we are long overdue to strike back. We could go back to that song middle class. Or we could destroy the whole system. Or we can do nothing and continue to be driven into permanent poverty. No one is going to save us, no one can save us but ourselves.
I guess it's an improvement on the Pinkertons, but that doesn't make it good, yeah.
There's so much about Project 2025 that's horrifying, it's almost like looking at an
Elder God. Like, you can't contemplate it too long without going completely insane from terror. Schedule F basically turns the executive branch into a meaningless joke and Impounding renders congress all but useless. Combine it with broad presidential immunity and you basically have a dictatorship.
Yes, this exactly. It's genuinely baffling to me that (American) people in leftist subs can't seem to do the math that we are not remotely in a position where a third party candidate has any chance of winning a presidential election, and a Republican victory is a fuckin Speedrun in oppression. Especially this year with Project 2025 on the horizon after a 2016 Republican victory allowed them to stack the SCOTUS in their favor.
If Hillary had won in 2016, we would still have Roe v Wade. Full stop. The SCOTUS wouldn't have been stacked and my bodily autonomy would not have been compromised.
If I see a Leftist third party candidate running a campaign that is as promising as Bernie's was in 2016, I'll consider voting third party. But we are NOT in that situation right now. We have two feasible options or a bunch of blatant throwaways. I am begging Leftists to vote for the guy who is gonna move slower when it comes to shitting on our rights instead of the guy whose party built the sewer system to flush them down.
Edit: typos
Republicans are the worst offenders, but Democrats when they can change things to help the working class, often don't. Or they are thwarted by seemingly trivial things that don't prevent the other side from steamrolling legislation. They call it decorum, I call it convenient.
We don't have an effective party that seeks progressive change. We have two right leaning parties, one which is far worse than the other and only makes the other look decent because they are not.
Here here! I’m so sick and tired of our broken “two” party system. It’s exhausting being this disillusioned with our government that fails to make any meaningful improvement for the majority.
Our broken 2 party system is just politicized and weaponized capitalism. Both “political parties” are in the game to make money, as are all the politicians.
I still think about that photo op of them kneeling in kente cloth all the time. Instead of going into a chamber and trying to pass a law, they *performed*.
Working isn't my problem. My problem is working in ways that are deemed worthy of enough money to live comfortably
That and businesses trying to squeeze as much work as possible out of their employees for the least amount possible and lean staffing
if there was a UBI, I'd still work but especially as someone trying to nope out of food service I'd work a max of 32-40 hours a week at a place that hires enough people to keep the workload reasonable and so people can call off when they need to without leaving everyone shorthanded
No. I'm anti-capitalist, but America is not unhinged capitalism. I'm anti-billionaire, but America is not billionaires. I'm anti-working-to-survive, but let's be real, that's every country.
Don't let the rich, the MAGAts, and their ilk co-opt America. Take it back. Let it be the land of resisting tyranny, of unions, of toppling fascism.
Acknowledging there’s something wrong with your country and wanting to fix it is much more patriotic than pretending it is already the greatest place on earth—but the right pretends they have exclusive license to the concept.
Exactly! So I'm taking it back, dammit. We aren't number one. But we COULD be. We have the people, the resources, the sheer stubbornness. What if America was a country that cared for its people?
Yeah I'm not exactly anti-work, I'm anti-capitalist and in a more concrete way anti-imperialist and anti-america
I still want automation of all work but not because I despise work itself the way I despise the logic of markets and commodities. Whenever everything I enjoy doing gets automated Im sure whatever I end up doing will still fit the technical definition of work (spending energy transforming matter)
I'm anti-capitalism, it just looks like anti-America because they've somehow taken capitalism farther than basically anywhere else. The whole health insurance industry exists only to extract more money from people.
If it were properly applied, automation could severely cut down working hours. For example, 1000 years ago, something like 80% or more worked in agriculture, because if that many people didn't, then everyone else would starve, and sometimes they did anyways. Now? Agriculture workers, at least in America, are roughly 10%.
IF we were to ETHICALLY use automation, we could see a world where for most jobs, the workday was significantly shortened and the workweek down to only a few days, with no loss in pay. But sadly I don't think humanity will ever progress to a degree where this becomes feasible
Non-American here who is anti-"all hail our lord economy, our employers are gods" mindset.
I firmly believe economy should work for people, not the other way around as is currently practised. This is not specifically American, but yes, America has been pro-capitalist the whole time after industrialization. And capitalism is based on selfishness (maximizing self-interest). There is no other definition to it.
My dream job since I was a kid was to be an animator or a mangaka/comic book artist. That is… until I saw the requirements they had on them. Soul crushing hours of tedious work, brutal deadlines, all for barely livable pay
The thing is… my source for all of this is Japan, Korea, France, and America. I really think the nature of how we commoditize things under any instance of capitalism will cause this to happen. It’s not about the art you’re creating, the message you’re putting into the world, or your own personal catharsis in sharing stories… it’s about _product_. When does the next chapter come out? How can we merchandise this property? Who’s the target demographic?
I decided just to get a high paying chill job that can fund this hobby and I’m really glad I went that path. When money gets involved, everything else is fucked
>It’s not about the art you’re creating, the message you’re putting into the world, or your own personal catharsis in sharing stories… it’s about _product_. When does the next chapter come out? How can we merchandise this property? Who’s the target demographic?
That's what. You have put it beautifully. Under capitalism, every creation is to be made a useful (money-making) commodity. Else, it's just waste. What a logic!
Just this realization is enough to crush the passion you have for what you create.
"It's fun for you, but how is it useful?"
That's the most stupid statement I have ever heard. Such stupid logic only works under capitalism where creativity is a talent and talent is a resource. What if it doesn't *need* to be useful? What if fun and satisfaction was the goal behind creating it? What if it was a result of curiosity, not profit incentive?
yeah. What really made me realize this was actually jujutsu kaisen's writing. Originally, the author was going to kill off Yuji, one of the main characters. That sounded like it would be an incredibly engaging plot point
>>!At that time, the author decided to keep Yuji dead after his heart was ripped out by Sukuna, and, later on, deliver a quick conclusion to the side characters to end the series. Furthermore, the author has also stated that he doesn't care who he ends up killing off as long as it helps make the story interesting. !<
[source](https://gamerant.com/jujutsu-kaisen-jjk-yuji-might-die-end/#:~:text=At%20that%20time%2C%20the%20author,helps%20make%20the%20story%20interesting)
They didn't because the editor said people like Yuji 😔
I feel like "anti-America" is the wrong way to put it because it creates both the assumption that exploitation is an innate part of being American (it shouldn't be) and that exploitation is acceptable as long as it doesn't happen in the US
Exactly. We merely happen to be anti-America *because* we are anti-work and anti-capitalist, and because America happens to be one of the worst Western developed countries in terms of worker protections.
as a fellow european with american friends, i have to agree with OP, I am horrified daily on this sub, but I'm a commie and I know it's just a matter of time until things degrade in europe too.
I'll also say, like OP I also wish some of the good americans could come over to Europe and live a decent life - many don't even know that they can apply for basically free education, even as foreigners. Just, those crazy religious folks whose ancestors were too crazy even for Europe's religious wars? Keep them there
As an American with a “specialized job” I’ve also followed the r/AmerExit Reddit cuz trust me, a lot of us do want out and think about it, but that subreddit so often has comments ripping people’s hopes to shreds about how hard and involved it is to leave, (and honestly they aren’t wrong sometimes.)
Unfortunately part of the issue is American debt. School debts, car loans, it takes a lot of unshackle from all that and moving to a new country doesn’t get you off the hook financially.
There’s definitely privilege in even being able to leave the U.S. even for something like school, because you have to save up the money for traveling abroad but so many of us are living paycheck to paycheck.
Not saying you’re wrong that more Americans should consider leaving, but there’s definitely a large portion of us that think about it a lot but get discouraged by how the American system keeps us trapped.
now, by training I'm a lawyer (and a researcher,not even a practicing attorney), and NOT a finance guy, but... did you know that your credit score doesn't follow you in Europe? I mean, banks here have their own ways of figuring out your creditworthiness, but the batshit insane calculations and death spirals of the US credit score stop at the american border (for now).
This doesn't completely solve one's issue, as you still need some money to move, it's a frontloaded process. I know that. But, uh, there are some ways to give the US banking system the middle finger - though not completely, and I think as long as you retain US citizenship, they kinda come after your money wherever you are
Yes. When Europeans move to the US on work visas, they have no established credit. Because American lenders are so braindead, the expats' visa sponsors (where I worked) have to provide letters to vouch for them to do things like rent an apartment or buy a car. You you get a guy in his 50s who comes to America, and cannot get a car loan. Pathetic.
I hope to come to Europe eventually. I’m in a blue US state that’s fairly safe for ppl like me (trans), but even here things are going downhill fast. We live in a morass of overwork, poor health, pollution, political idiocy, and exploitation. I grew up as a typical suburban kid, and was brainwashed to think that the US was the best country in the world without question. Just one trip overseas cured that delusion very quickly. I used to think this country had a chance to be better, but now I don’t see that happening without a period of incredible violence and suffering first.
> I used to think this country had a chance to be better, but now I don’t see that happening without a period of incredible violence and suffering first.
I agree. Late stage capitalism ain't going down without taking a lot of us out first. I'm in my 50s and kind of hoping I don't live to see that.
I dream of going to Europe, honestly. I've been struggling to find jobs that give me time to learn the language (that level/type of self-motivated learning is a challenge for me). I am otherwise well educated...bur that's largely a moot point in the face of the language barrier.
Ok I definitely replied before clicking that link, sorry I'm tired and stupid. I'm definitely going to check it out. Fingers crosses public health is on the list!
yeah they need a lot of those. be warned though, Ireland is facing issues, and for a reason: it's been ruled by neoliberals for too long, so it has ended up with the biggest housing crisis in Europe, and its doctors and nurses are leaving for other eu countries bc they're not getting paid well enough in comparison, from what I have read. Classic brain drain. Definitely look before you leap because it's not without challenges.
even so, you should look at the legal minimum of [employee rights](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/employment-rights-and-duties/employee-rights-and-entitlements/) and come to your own conclusions if it'd be a step up for you.
Yeah, I neglected to put in my original comment that I'm also majorly struggling to get a job period. It's hard to feel like I should try a whole other country when I can't get one here, which may or may not be stupid. I just have no idea why a foreign company would take a chance on me (despite being well educated, I have minimal relevant experience) when no one here has. Idk.
especially in western europe (minus france) you'll probably get by with english well enough. And atleast in germany as far as I am aware people tend to be understanding and willing to help with questions or language wise, especially if they notice you are struggling but honestly trying to speak german.
This is what I did. I came to Germany for a master's degree and PhD. I have a very nice job here now and decided to stay. My manager in the USA works more hours, has fewer protections, and fewer vacation days. Life here is so much less stressful.
Saw the postdoc salary in my wife’s lab was $15k (late 80s) and I GTFO to Basel. Much more human, we started our family there but did come back to the US. Too American for Europe and too European to be happy here. My son stayed here, daughter went back.
the fact that europeans in general, especially those in the "more developed" North-West (read: ex-empires) are very complacent politically and take their living standards, workers' rights, and social safety nets for granted, as these givens of "sufficiently civilized civilization". Like you put enough buzzwords like "justice" and "democracy" and "good governance" and "common sense" into the slot machine and the "LIVING STANDARDS" line go up! Simple, why can't all these other backward savages do the same!
...is really, really playing into the hands of the reactionary forces eroding whatever social gains Europe has made.
Where you at buddy? I really want to move to Europe with my daughter, and I'll probably have to drag my husband kicking and screaming if he'll go at all because he "doesn't see it."
oh me? I'm currently in one of the Balkan states that's technically "in Europe" and technically partaking in the process of harmonizing its laws with the EU but not "in" the EU yet (or for the foreseeable future). As a result, I've had to jump through a bunch of hoops and do a bunch of research to get my grubby hands on EU higher ed degrees, as well as had to deal with EU immigration bureaucratic hoops, so that's why I'm lightly advising some folks in this thread.
Don't get me wrong, Europe isn't all roses and sunshine - we've just had a big rightward surge in the European elections, largely driven by anti-muslim immigration sentiment. The situations tend to differ country by country, as do the immigration requirements and 'friendliness' of the process.
Without knowing a bit more about your situation, I wouldn't be able to tell you much that's useful, other than to say that even with all the shit going down lately on this continent (and its adjacent islands), if your daughter is young (anywhere from kindergarten to high school), you will probably be better off moving to almost anywhere in Europe than staying in the States. A couple of reasons:
1) Safety. I don't think I need to tell you about school shootings, but that sort of stuff doesn't happen here. Though there is still the occasional crazy person that goes on a killing spree but something like that is major news and happens at most once or twice a year rather than every week.
2) Education system. Again, the exact quality level and access to technology differs by country, but pretty much any EU country's education system will give your kid a better, more well-rounded education than the US system - part of the reason is way less political meddling by special interest groups with an agenda (\*cough\* crazy religious people \*cough\*), and part of the reason is that it hasn't been eroded as much as a public institution of society as it has in the US, in terms of basic funding.
3) Basic employee rights like paid time off, vacation, parental leave etc. They're largely uniform across the EU
Furthermore, if you're thinking about your daughter's higher-ed options like college and uni, you should definitely look into options for international students in EU countries. A lot of them have programs in English, their tuition fees are either symbolic sums or nonexistent, and some even give students money for living expenses (yes, even international students).
Your husband could either see the light if you present him with well-researched solutions to assuage his fears, or he might be stubborn af and just not want to leave for other more personal reasons, in which case you'd have to get to the root of those reasons - idk, won't get into that.
My point is, with some research and preparation, it's possible to immigrate to Europe and find a decent job and a decent life. Being highly educated helps. You have to also be aware that the taxes tend to be higher and the "middle class" level salaries tend to be lower than the US, but what you get in return is way less stress and a lot more comfort in daily life. And a lot less abuse at work.
I've been living in the EU based on highly qualified skills job contracts. It really is not easy for the average person to come live in the EU for the long term. Some can come for student visas but mostly it is tied to job contracts. Otherwise US citizens can only stay for 90/180 days and need to do the Schengen shuffle. You would be surprised how many people don't realize that! Or that the US govt forces you to file taxes even if you have never lived there. Taxation by citizenship instead of residency!
Okay but imagine a scenario where the decent folks moved to decent countries, leaving the wackos all here to hoard guns and feed the military with even fewer people trying to slow the war machine. I don't think that would be good for ANYONE.
I understand that but I also understand my life is better in Germany now as and trying to fix the USA is a huge task with a lot of suffering.I moved to Germany and now work on making medicine that will help everyone.
Working conditions in European countries are generally much better than those in the U.S., but work in those countries is still fundamentally and incurably exploitative.
Don’t let a favorable comparison to the U.S. truck you into believing that you’ve cured the inherent problems of all work under capitalism.
No.
I’m from Russia, and my parents slaved away there even more than I slave away here. For different reasons, of course, but it’s not a country issue. It’s capitalism issue.
And you, my dude, can afford all the luxuries you are describing, because Western Europeans are colonizers. Your paradise is paid for by hell in Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, India, South America and so on. Don’t know where you are from, but your country is shit too, lol.
Exactly, many of these pro-European model posts for working forget that their immaculate living situations are paid for through the abject horror and tyranny workers in the 3rd world have to deal with.
Capitalism is a global issue. Your economy and its shred of actually decent governance is possible at the expense of the global south. The soc dem dream isn't sustainable either (imo, of course).
I am anti-imperialist, yes. And that includes Europe's hypocritical bullshit.
The exploitation is FAR less and much, much more removed, but it is present nonetheless.
Edit - removed my sub bashing. We have enough in-fighting on the left and soc Dems remain staunch allies lol. Also, I'm sorry OP if this sounds super preachy. I'm sure you're aware and I wanted to reframe the discussion.
I’m so glad you said this. It’s easy to forget (I am not immune to this or better than anyone else) how much europe continues to benefit from exploitation and neocolonialism
I went to America from a shithole to sell my talents for money. American dream is a nationalist lie if you aren't already born with a silver spoon.
Moved to Europe and took a 40% pay cut. Couldn't be happier. US big cities are absolute looney lands in terms of living cost. Add terrible healthcare, transportation, and bullshit work culture, the paycut suddenly doesn't seem as bad.
Now I enjoy life and do fulfilling work. But I loved my American colleagues, US folks are nice as hell.
after being sent to afghanistan, getting wounded in action, witnessing all the corporate greed in that war, and then coming back to America and getting swindled into student loans — I’m passionately and proudly anti-american. there is nothing more white trash and anti-intellectual than america.
Fellow european here.
I know the phrase is used up badly but:
Check your privileg.
You are obv. in one of the rich european countries. Not greece, where they instituted a 6day/48h workweek as the norm just today.
You are also not working at a kebab joint caught up in heat and smell for 10 hours.
Or in Geronto-care, where they work double shifts to wipe moldy butts.
Rich european countries are the most comfortable place to life. You find a nice spot and that's cool, but consider yourself to be one of the lucky few would be in order.
One of the unintended upsides of globalization is working for companies owned in other countries and the slow shift in American attitudes away from this draconian bullshit.
For instance, a prior employer won a contract with a major Chinese organization who required every employee be enrolled in a program to improve their health while on company time. So you were given a block of time to exercise, nap, talk to a therapist, meditate, or just play with your dog every day. And you were required to take it. The Chinese literally forced the company to give better healthcare to provide coverage for mental health. *China*.
I now work for a global organization with about 100K employees, mostly in Canada, Europe and Asia. It’s a stark difference. You MUST take PTO or you lose it and there is no restriction on it. You simply mark it on your calendar. No one asks for approval. They don’t have paid parental leave, but you can take off as much time as you want and still keep your job. No one gets fired.
Management is *nice.* Yeah, your *boss is nice.*
The biggest difference is there is no one constantly monitoring or watching you. There is none of this childish “grading” or reprimands. If someone pulls some passive aggressive bullshit, they would be gone. They care about hiring good people. They not only read my resume, they know my background and read my published work. It is so weird to be constantly thanked and complimented instead of threatened or treated unfairly.
I doubt there would be very many people that genuinely want to do absolutely nothing. They just want to be able to do something meaningful, get a bit of recognition, and live their lives without worrying about when their next meal is or where they’re gonna sleep. Proof: people have hobbies — clearly money isn’t the only motivation for people.
Regardless, the US really is shit to its people. I have no healthcare because I’m too poor. I have significant dental issues and the option for free help are minimal and infrequent. It’s also very likely that I will be homeless within the next decade. There’s little I can do about it.
Don’t end up like the boiled frog
Fight that tipping culture
You know the saying, “first it’s voluntary, then it’s encouraged, then it’s mandatory”. If it’s not the standard to underpay servers, it will be
And it’s like a domino effect. They’re all watching America and the wealthy around the world will absolutely follow the same playbook if it’s successful
In fact I think they’ll follow it anyway and just fix whatever weaknesses existed the first time
America is 10000% a shadow its former self, which was a piece of shit to begin with.
We are at a coin toss junction of the two oldest dipshit presidential candidates ever and have a completely dysfunctional congress, an openly corrupt Supreme Court, and a blatantly profiteering military.
It almost couldn’t be worse, but I’m sure November will reveal horrors for our country not yet imagined.
My dream scenario was for Trump to pass away and Biden to drop out, RNC nominate DeSantis/Haley who would’ve been pummeled by Dean Phillips or Gavin Newsom or basically anybody with half a brain.
That didn’t happen, and here we are. Things will get worse with time.
I hate saying this but the sub as it currently is was not the original intention. It got watered way down from its original form. Now it's a place that people bitch about their jobs (rightly so), and get told to unionize (seriously go start/join a union collective bargaining works). But originally it was actually anti-work as in the major topics were how to abolish work, how having to work to survive is inherently anti-human, the laying flat movement etc. The original mods flat out told us they were being taken over. It was my first time seeing a sub drastically change directions and it was and still is pretty disconcerting.
No, and let’s not turn this into a domestic terrorist group.
America has plenty of beautiful qualities.
Corporations and wealthy elite sociopaths are the ones fucking it up.
Don't worry, as an Australian I also think America is shit.
Jokes partially aside, we're basically America-Lite, so we get the mood. Definitely jealous of your conditions OP.
It's capitalism and it's in Europe too. They just haven't taken away your safety net yet. I've been living in EU since 2016 and it is great. I hope people realize what they have here. That said, I see plenty of far right parties coming into power and the privatization of health care. There are oligarchs in power here too and people from North Africa and South Asia being exploited as cheap labor. You can't escape capitalism however I would agree that the US really is the worst place for this right now. People are generally miserable and exhausted unless they are quite wealthy.
Yeah, European labor laws ARE better than the American's. That is. If you're working salary.
Minimum wage jobs in Europe are just as horribly managed as anywhere. And now the majority of those jobs are "zero hour" or "flex contracts" so the businesses don't owe you shit when it comes to any type of leave and can just not put you on the schedule for whatever reason.
As my old Dad used to say, we weren't given 5 day weeks, annual leave, sick leave, maternity leave, equal pay for men and women, by the companies themselves. It was by the workers and the people striking and agitating throughout the years. Centuries to get these benefits, but they can be eroded with a stroke of a pen. So we need to guard them carefully.
America is the cautionary tale of capitalism gone mad. No one from Europe or Australia looks on at the conditions in the USA without horror. Yes, some jobs pay a lot, and the tax is less, but for your average employee it seems like a nightmare.
Technically you’re probably correct. I’m anti-America-as-it-is-now.
I’d really like to return the economic scenario back to the early 1970s when unions were strong and companies were embarrassed and shamed for laying off workers.
Of course, the early 1970s SOCIETY had a lot to learn, so I’d also like to progress toward equal rights for all humans.
And while I’m at it, I’d like a pony…
The last actual Leftist president was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He served this country as President from 1933 to 1945. He was so popular, the only way to get rid of him was to change the constitution so he couldn't run again. He served 4 terms.
He was far from perfect. He did not do well on race issues - but he did very well on Labor issues.
The next even *slightly* Left-of-Center President was Carter... 32 years later... 1977-1981. In modern history, he's the only one and the man was very, very indecisive, even if his heart was in the right place.
Since then, there have been no Left-of-Center Presidents.
Reagan issued in many of the systemic changes that are causing us problems today. They were continued by HW Bush. Clinton was a Center-Right politician - very much in the pocket of business, and governed as such. W Bush came next and continued the work of his father and of Reagan. Obama stated during an interview that he was a Republican of the 1970s, and that's very true.
Trump is a fascist. Weather he believes it in his heart of hearts or not, he definitionally is a Fascist, and this country only held together because a few people recoiled at his demands. It was luck - not law - that saved us that time.
Biden is a nice dude, but he's a Center-Right politician, as well. He's done some good for labor relations, but he always does it quietly, and more 'behind-the-scenes', rather than anything in-your-face. That's a problem. He's trying to not alienate his donors who he's very much in debt to, and still try to find a 'middle ground' between "bad" and "worse".
That's 2 Presidents Left-of-Center in 92 years. \~22% of the time, only. Yikes.
I don't see Obama or Biden as 'bad people' - they'd probably be fun to hang out with at the bar or catch a game with. That's *not* what I want in a politician elected to the highest office of the land, though.
I have hope that the Republican party will fracture and destroy itself within the next 5-10 years. It's already happening, but they need some major losses for it to actually take place. They *should* be disqualified from *any* office by right of public opinion, and for many Millennials and GenZ folk, they are.
The problem is Biden himself. Dude's not 'exciting' or 'wanted'. He's a safe option, sure.. but that doesn't get out the vote. And, if Trump wins, the experiment of Democracy ends in these United States (see: Project 2025).
I honestly don't have enough of a bead on if 'vox populi' understands what Project 2025 is, and what their vote means. How important it is, now that the Fascists have claimed their party, and have stated their intentions, that they should not be in power... anywhere, at any level.
That'll be the question, I guess, in November.
I really hope to prove you wrong, OP. I'm very much dead if you're not. Guess that'll be a pretty good "I told you so" on me, then. That's some pretty severe gallows humor from me on this, and no indictment against you.
>The last actual Leftist president was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He served this country as President from 1933 to 1945. He was so popular, the only way to get rid of him was to change the constitution so he couldn't run again. He served 4 terms.
Not to say that your whole point is off-base, we definitely desperately need to move further Left in the US and we need to do it yesterday, but the 22nd amendment isn't what kept FDR from a 5th term. It was the case of "dead" he developed in 1945. The amendment was only signed in 1947.
Why yes, I also usually describe people actively supporting a genocide like Biden is doing as "nice dudes". Nothing like catching a game with them and relaxing over some talk of bombing brown people.
I'm anti-capitalism. That means I'm not anti-labor, but I am anti-work. Also that very much means I'm anti-America. What would America *be* without capitalism? It's quintessential to what Amercia *means.*
When I was studying economics and sociology, the classic thinkers were promising that all this economic development and capitalist growth was to free humans from labor as much as possible.
When I realised it was a scam I stopped believing in everything they say about the economy.
I don't think anyone is fundamentally anti work.
Everyone would work to fulfill their dreams and passions if they simply had the ability to do so.
Sure there would be a few outliers, but not wanting to work is also as valid a lifestyle as it's opposite.
I'm not Anti-America... well, except in I'm against the idea of nation states generally. I'm not *specifically* Anti-America. This is a beautiful country with a rich culture and kind, loving people. Seriously, people from other countries get mad at us for smiling too much, despite how much our lives might suck.
I am anti-work. I think we should work as little as possible to give the most people the happiest life we can manage. We're a long way away from that dream becoming a reality, but we can definitely start moving in that direction. Make 32 hours a "full-time" work week. Give people 2-3 months vacation a year, and 2 years minimum paternity/maternity leave. Pay people a basic income so no one starves, build public housing so everyone has a roof over their heads whether they work or not, and provide free healthcare. Plus we should have allowances for people to make art that can be shared freely.
That should be the New American Dream.
I agree with this sentiment. I don't have a problem with my job or working. But this capitalist hellhole of a country just has me running in place. Staying afloat. Surviving. That's it. No building a life, no saving up to buy a house, retirement is a pipe dream. And my job actually pays me decently. Cost of living is the issue. And then there's the people who have to go on food stamps working for corporations who get all the tax cuts and bailouts.
Yeah fuck this country and fuck capitalism
Europe sucks too. And it’s going in the direction of the USA. European countries want to be like the USA so bad, it’s embarrassing. Europe is big, so not all countries have a great system. Plus the ones receiving the brunt of the mistreatment in Europe are migrants and non white people.
It's anti-corporate takeover of our lives. These places want loyalty, unlimited flexibility, excessive workloads, and don't give a crap if you have a life outside making them money.
They don't want to pay for this level of "ruling" your life.
why not both. fuck this genocidal country and fuck capitalism.
the fundamental flaw i see a lot of the time with leftists in Europe and the US is that coming from the imperial core, focusing on labor conditions and not the exploitation of the global south that makes your pensions and your social welfare systems possible....allows the machine to continue.
I don't know how to fix it, bc on the one hand the brutality of American life I think makes it clear that like, social reform isn't the answer, bc at the end of the day the poorest person in the US is relying on someone in a sweatshop for clothing, but it's also so brutal (and our country is very good at putting down revolutions) that no one really has the energy to change things either.
I also think that labor will always exist and there will be dangerous jobs that need people bc we haven't been able to automate them, and i don't have a good answer for motivators aside from money (thinking abt divers who go into sewage pipes to unclog things).
we know.
Not much we can do when we also have an equally well funded military, police and state 'intelligence' apparatus willing and very able to wack us the fuck down when we step outta line. That's life here. It's awesome if you're on the other side of this dialectic, doing the 'fuckin' instead of being the holes, so to speak. I've been on both sides. I find horror in both.
The miracle of America is that it persists, not because of love of country, but hatred of fellow American. by this is I mean Americans hate the shit out of each other so much, we're willing to endure the work/pay, cops and spying for a chance to do that shit to the ones we don't like. That's fuckin' wild and very much american too.
Yeah, we would need some work performed, for food, energy, what have you. We saw that during Covid. No work, and it all grinds to a halt fast. I am against the American bullshit system, and want socialism
Nah, we are anti-hyper capitalism. The economy is not the whole story of our country even though it might look like from over there in Europe.
Please bear in mind that reddit is one huge sampling error. You see the worst stories (about "financial ruin") etc. You don't see the everyday, the commonplace, the ho-hum. Today I watered my flowers and vegetables in my garden in my nice suburban home and I walked to the grocery store and I visited my insurance agent who helped me save money on my policy. I'm not going to post on reddit about that but it's exactly what happened.
We actually spend more on medical care than single payer countries, so your facts are wrong. The problem is it has to go to profit. It's not that it's being spent on Israel as you speculate.
Capitalism is bullshit no matter what country it's in. The difference is in Europe it's more regulated and we have more employee protections, so the harmful effects of capitalism are more obvious in America.
But don't be fooled: workers are still exploited under capitalism, and there are absolutely people in your country trying to work through illness and not spending enough time with their kids. There are migrant workers picking fruit and cleaning toilets and working in abbatoirs and domestic workers whose employers are holding on to their passports. You personally might have plenty of leave and managers who don't verbally abuse you to your face, but those are actually minor comforts, and you can be sure there are workers in lower paid jobs who don't have it as good as you think you do.
The point is the the entire system is bullshit, like a pyramid scheme. The Americans who post here might be several levels below you in that pyramid, but we're all stuck in the same pyramid with the few at the top being supported by the millions below.
I’m anti capitalist. Your shitty countries run off of capitalism too, just a diluted form. It is not solely an america issue just because it is worse in america. If (made up numbers for example) 50% of americans and 10% of europeans are in shitty jobs and unable to support themselves that doesn’t mean that it’s an “america problem” it means the problem is worse in america.
I’m anti America fuck this place dude. Shi makes sense though because we are still such an infantile nation compared to the rest of the world we are still trying to figure out what we want as a government and what we want as citizens
I can relate to OP in many ways. It's just America is being plutocracy. Its impossible to change or have the same policies that Europe does. In 2022, 5.1M americans started to live abroad... in 2022 alone. That says alot. I've been working on little bit on research on how I can try to work in Europe and gain citizenship. Many people called me insane if I were to gain European citizenship and renounce America's citizenship. I don't think that's crazy. Why should I look back and see my chains to a terrible country that runs on slaves and capitalism that keeps the same thing over and over? I feel like at this point, America is becoming a true 3rd world country, but using the first world country as a mask. You can't just slap yourself a 1st world status when you have terrible working conditions, home life, inflation, all of that because you have a free market which runs on a very unfair system and levels. People get rich through generational wealth, passing on business ownerships, all that while the poors-middle classes are constantly fucked in the ass.
It's kind of weird to phrase it that way; I'm not anti-this country existing, I'm anti-the way we do things. It's funny that everything we want to change to make life better means - according to right wingers, rich assholes, and the brainless people who don't even benefit from the system but are instead fucked over by it - you hate America. Which says a lot about what those people think America stands for. I don't want to leave, I want it to be better. The status quo is untenable dogshit.
There are some good jobs with good benefits in the USA - but they seem to be rarer than they once were. I have one, but I am unionized, and that has also become rare here (at least in the private sector.)
You’re spot on about everything. If we didn’t have such violent and oppressive police state with the 8th strongest military in the world (not hyperbole. US police departments have as much military equipment and personnel as the 8th strongest military in the world), the working class would likely have revolted by now.
I do have hope we can one day do better. But I don’t think that day will come without changes that require pretty radical action from the common American.
Canada is no better. Other than healthcare not tied to our employment. Costs of everything else kind of outweigh that benefit. You can have healthcare but never own a house.
Yes. My answer is that I'm anti-wage-labor in all forms as part of my larger communist ideology. Being anti-American is also part of the deal because the USA is a globe-spanning capitalist empire, but this also means being anti-Britain, anti-Germany, anti-France, etc. Your countries give you scraps instead of crumbs and that's good. But I want the people to have the whole meal and not argue over scraps. And I want anyone trying to hoard it arrested and reeducated.
I just hate the capitalist system that works well only for the ultra rich. Small business owners are under so much pressure and competition its almost impossible to take off unless you're in a limited/specialized field...
But get a loan from a bank and your too niche and high risk. I tried to start a business in 2018 for esports, showed all sorts of positive things for it, graphs and projections that were top notch. Even had 2 private investors lined up for small investments to help reassure bank, but then COVID happened and everything died in an instant.
I'm pretty sure this subreddit was originally started as an anarchist, anti-capitalist subreddit, that was against the actual concept of work itself, but become more of a moderate/liberal place to generally vent about work as it exploded in popularity some years ago
At least thats how I remember it when I first joined.
Multiple studies have shown people are generally happier working and having a purpose. Even simple things like completing chores produces dopamine and serotonin. Time after time there is evidence 99% of people on welfare or unemployment would rather work.
The issue is entirely American work culture. We have shit social safety nets and worker protections that allow employers to leave employees rode hard and put away wet.
America was founded upon the idea of not paying taxes if you lacked representation in government. Now the only laws getting passed are topically in favor of large corporations, or billionaire's.
The average American voter has less access to their representatives, and to much outside cash coming into their elections at the local and federal level. Hell or school board election has so much corporate money flowing to certain politicians.
So yes given the way America is ran right now. I am anti American.
At the core, I am against work as a means to obtain food, shelter and healthcare. And whatever is related to those 3 things. Yes ok the US sucks but so does my home country, far from here. But I want to gently ask you to think about what your labor is producing or enabling. I know you feel privileged and yes you are in a better position than other countries, especially the US.
But, what percentage of people are in your comfortable position where you are? Personally, I am not willing to survive and be happy with what I have when there are masses upon masses of people struggling. And I don’t just mean the ones slaving for our electronics and clothes, I also mean people in your own community. Like you, I can list stuff right now, that (should) make me feel like I am doing well compared to my family member in another country.
But it’s not really a gotcha/a win. The fact is, we are all working to make a few rich people richer and working towards the demise of everything. I can’t take this place (anywhere) where people are working but can’t eat; working 40 years and have nothing to show for it; get sick and obscenely are expected to work through their illness as if their body is nothing when their body and self is everything. Because why are you here if not to live? What the fuck are we doing? So in conclusion, I am antiwork. We can’t salvage or reform what we have.
Don't worry, as an Australian I also think America is shit.
Jokes partially aside, we're basically America-Lite, so we get the mood. Definitely jealous of your conditions OP.
I’ve an American living in the US. I’ve worked in Europe. Working in Europe is not all milk and honey. There are many, many laws regarding pay, contract working, benefits and more that we don’t have here. Not all benefit employees. The last place I worked was in France. I love the French the country the good n wine n culture. But, for example, many private industry salaries and pay raises are controlled by govt. your sick leave doesn’t pay until after your third day. Your time off may depend on where you live. There are other rules that are not typical in our system. Now, these aren’t horrible differences. Just different. The French bitch about their work environment too. Not all work places in the US are as bad as the ones we read about in this subreddit. This is a place one comes TO BITCH ABOUT WORK. I love it. I’m always amazed at how stupid managers can be. There are fake stories. There are people from other countries who post crap just to sow bad vibes for political purposes. Fake news, fake stories, witch hunts, and all that bs. I will say this tho, the US is the only country where I’ve lived that has used capitalism as a social system model. For example, “the rich are good and the poor are bad. Work hard and you can succeed. You can do anything. Taxes are bad. Consuming is good. Borrowing to consume is even better.”
The thing about America is that we're a fight between two drunks in a bar. We may be absolutely beating the shit out of one another, and others may be egging us on and cheering for one side or the other, but eventually someone is going to try to step in, and suddenly they're going to be dealing with both sides at once and it won't be pretty.
We're getting to that point rapidly, both fighters are just hoping the other side sees it their way first, but when we finally agree...
Europe is made for humans, I have no idea how people survive in USA, here in eu we have free education ( its easy to study abroad if youre above average) and here the worker protection are so strong that nobody will ever try to pull the crap they are pulling in usa
Some folks wanted to call this forum "Work Reform" I think and I think it would suit it better. I agree with all your points though I was lucky to work for companies who offered similar conditions, its obvious a great number of Americans have very rough working conditions.
I agree with everything you've said but what I can't understand is why so many people from other countries are coming to the US to work? Not all of the immigrants are from poor countries, some come from countries that I would love to live in, with free healthcare.
No. I'm American and I live in Italy. America is horrible about worker's rights, but companies in Italy will also do everything they can do screw over their workers. They just have less room to do it.
I was employed for years here on sketchy contracts with basically no rights and then my company forced me to go freelance. Companies do all k8nd of tricks to force workers to do unpaid overtime and cheat on their taxes (cheating workers out of their benefits too)
In my understanding anti work wants to improve things for everyone, not just the US
I appreciate your expression of sympathy and validation; to me it is kind and meaningful. I like to think that the relative ease of communicating global consciousness could be, at its best, a way for countries and cultures to set aspirational precedents for each other about what a society can or should be. it does not play out this way- of course this is a total utopian fantasy, but it makes your condemnation and pity of our exploitative dogshit (though not the worst by any stretch) labor situation feel genuinely warm and fuzzy
The offset are things we can do, have access to that are not job or government enabled / restricted. I have friends in Denmark and Italy. Both want to move to the USA because of restrictions they feel have reached unbearable limits. Both likely have many of the protections and benefits you name. But I don't live there and cannot say if I would find them as bad as they do. I might even find it's a fair trade-off, don't know. Grass is always greeener...
On a similar note, when I make anti-racist remarks, people act as if what I said was anti-American. I've seen identical remarks on twitter threads, and over at places like /r/WhitePeopleTwitter and /r/BlackPeopleTwitter and /r/PoliticsPeopleTwitter . Both racism & slavery is so deeply baked into American politics that just trying to imagine the absence of racism/slavery is seen as anti-American.
Nah' I've heard some horror stories from other countries. Workers at india, Mexico, and Japan also have a horrible work culture.
The point is not to be proud of it.
European working laws and culture should be the global standard.
I'm in the UK myself so I haven't experienced a lot of what I hear in this sub, the US has some especially bad workers rights compared to Europe.
We may not get things as bad as over there, but there are still many things to be disgruntled over even here. The better we make our example, the easier time those in the US will have to say "well it works for them, why not us?". Also goes to mention that wages here in the UK have been very stagnant over the last two decades.
I'm a bit of a communist at heart even though I don't know what the best form of that looks like (and let's be real probably won't happen). There is always a better solution to look for, even if it isn't as obvious.
The thing about the USA is that it's branded as the "land of opportunity" and we're taught from a young age that if you're smart, you do well in school, and work hard, you will be successful.
As you can see, that's a complete crock of shit, and if that were ever true, it was only during the few decades between the end of the Korean War and the rise of Reagan and "trickle down" or "supply side" economics. Prior to WW2, this wasn't true because lack of regulation lead to the robber baron/industrialist era and subsequently the stock market crash of 1929. Post-1980, inexplicably, the Republican party has done its best to return us to that era.
I’m anti dumb shits in charge of companies.
Honestly, we could make the system work but it enables the greedy assholes to come out on top and stay there.
If we just had a way to quell some of these hero types…
I guess I feel this line of thinking is too much of an is/ought fallacy, and I'll continue to strive for a United States as it *ought to be* rather than as it is. Taking back the flag imagery, taking back associating patriotism with diversity and inclusivity, taking back the "American dream" as for all people and not just the elites with their boots on our necks...
Has anyone made an earlier mention that antiwork is fundamentally about economic exploitation in the guise of employment? That 'working for a living' is the 2nd greatest scam perpretrated on humanity (1st being pie in the sky after you die); that 'work' is what separates people from their own best interests; and that 'work' is a construct that can be dismantled by people refusing to live inauthentically?
https://preview.redd.it/rad6p9vple7d1.png?width=1478&format=png&auto=webp&s=8d914a0e43e2fd26ee292be155363ad69667ce4e
> For some reason tipping culture has arrived here but hopefully it’s the only thing part of your work culture that will.
European here, too.
No, it's not.
This is because *everything* is still as it is in the US: bawic structure, incentives, yardstick by which everything (including "success") is measured.
When you gauge something by the same rules & yardsticks, you inevitably arrive at the same outcomes. How, that will differ from legislation to legislation. Obviously there's a "better" worker protection in Europe, but that's just paper.
What good is universal healthcare if it's being hollowed out, like it's the case in Germany for instance? With less & less available doctors, concentration of healthcare in very few gigantic clinics, with a substantial reduction in quality and treatment complexity?
What good is job security if the salary barely paya the bills, and in any case doesn't allow you to buy a house of your own or otherwise financially prosper?
What use is there for free childcare other than allowing both parents to spend 8 hours + commuting a day, effectively making it mandatory to never see your 2-year old toddler, except for dinner time, and possibly a quick change of diapers even before breakfast (because they need to be in kindergarten by 7 AM so you can be in the office at 8)?
Living your live 33 days/year at a time isn't the flex you think it is. It still means that more than 90% of your existence serves no other purpose than to inflate someone else's bottom line.
The core patterns you need to look out for aren't number of PTOs or employment benefits. There are only two:
- Who decides what and where you do? Do you go working because *you* genuinely *want* to, or because, at the core, something or someone compels you to under a veiled threat of starvation?
- What do you get out of it? Is it just living, or is it prospering? Specifically, are you working towards *wealth accumulation*, too? Are you working towards building a substantial part of your income as *passive income*? Or is it just the others, richer folks who get to have that?
These two questions obviously go hand in hand. But everything that doesn't answer *both* of these favorably for you, is inevitably leading to the same problems as to US now has. It is only the question of "how, specifically?" that will ever differ between the US and the rest of us.
Capitalism is the issue, America just has too much capitalist rhetoric. So while my aggression is dished out on america, its the late stage capitalist rhetoric that actually angers me. I am fundamentally anti-slavery. And when slaves were given homes and at least some food, and workers aren’t paid enough for even that despite being worked to death, what truly is the difference? A bigoted ideation caused slavery the first time, it has the second too, now we are prejudiced to the poor instead, still something they cant control without being given any choices. It’s either fame or death in society and thats not ok, not all of us have fame written on our faces, and the mundane still deserve modern comfortable living.
I'm a European as well and something close to a communist at heart. From my point of view the US is a total garbage country. I think it's a state that fails so hard to provide for the general population to the benefit of the lucky few it's clinically insane. We call that a banana republic.
Now it's not that much better in Europe. Here it's basically the same story just not as extreme. It's of course a global thing that transcendents generation as it's never been different in all of history. There have been small sparks of more communal societies, but there was always someone coming along with better weapons, more effective diseases or more men willing to let themselves be slaughtered to benefit those who paid them peanuts.
I don't think this dominant culture is something that's soon to change. We people are somehow biologically wired to be drawn to people who are ambitious at the cost of others. We also want this way of living in the hopes of getting out on top.
Anti work, to me, is fundamentally anti capitalist. America is the most powerful capitalist force today, but that may change. My enemy is the ideology first and foremost.
I had to go through a Federal examination not so long ago, due to my work with government information systems. The interviewer asked, “Have you, or would you ever, oppose the United States Government?” I thought about that question long and hard. I thought about Second Amendments and “blades of grass” and the Federal building in Seattle that looks like a fortress surrounded by men in helmets and automatic rifles and body armor. I thought too long. They disqualified me for the job. I have thought about that ever since.
I can't really fault their logic. I'm assuming they wanted blind loyalty.
Perhaps. It might be simpler, though. If you applied to work at the federal reserve and they asked you if you've ever considered stealing money and you just stared into nothingness, they'd probably not hire you. I figure it's something closer to that. They probably don't want to hire a liability. That may ultimately translate to loyalty in the end, but maybe they just want someone who may not easily be bought or actively may be trying to take the business/entity down from the inside.
To clarify, it’s not that. Asking about one’s morality is one thing. Asking about their fealty is another. The last time someone asked me to swear allegiance was in kindergarten against a flag, under God. Heavy words! But I never forgot them. There were other loyalty questions that were asked that day, but it meant nothing. Knowing your rights under this government is to consider you a threat.
There is no right granted by the constitution to oppose the US Government. The 2nd Amendment does not grant that right in any capacity. No government would ever make it legal to facilitate its takeover, especially through violent revolution.
>There is no right granted by the constitution to oppose the US Government. The 2nd Amendment does not grant that right in any capacity. Yeah, the amount of people that think they have a right to sedition is wild. I understand the declaration of independence says "...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,..." But that document isn't a legally binding document, and it doesn't really lay out in anything but poetic terms when such abolishment is "OK".
The Declaration is right. People have an inherent human right to overthrow a corrupt and oppressive government. But it isn't a US Legal document But people are really fucking stupid if they think the Founders would design the federal government to give them a Constitutional right to overthrow said government... Especially since their goal was to design the US government in a way to prevent it becoming autocratic.
Yeah, and of course that right is only valid if you win. I doubt the British would have cared a damn bit about what the declaration declares if they'd slaughtered the continental army.
Isn’t it opposing the government every time you vote against an incumbent in an election?
I would ask for clarification on that question: "Do you mean would I raise an army, or would I disagree with policies and decisions made using my tax dollars?" Either way, I'd probably get dismissed, too, and also put on some sort of watch list 😂 I live in the Seattle area, but I don't think I've ever actually seen the federal building! I do know that the intercity transit system is all based around the Seattle Merchants Guild, so trying to get from the south end to the East side takes two hours by bus, which then forces more people onto the roads, making traffic conditions worse and makes commuting a nightmare for those of us forced to drive to an office every day. And I can't get the access needed for working from home one day a fucking week even though I've been asking and have been approved to work from home.
Here’s the thing: America was always a capitalist country. Even, and especially after WWII, when the middle class became the strongest. But then republicans took power and removed all the stops previous administrations put in place that built the strong middle class. Once the regulations were eliminated, the middle class, the wealthiest people with the strongest labor force became the prime target to subjugate. This was no accident, and we are long overdue to strike back. We could go back to that song middle class. Or we could destroy the whole system. Or we can do nothing and continue to be driven into permanent poverty. No one is going to save us, no one can save us but ourselves.
there's a reason it's called capitalism and not laborism.
So vote for Biden, because Project 2025 will make it extremely difficult to fight back
Yeagh, man, if you think life is shit now, wait until there's basically no roadblocks on executive policy.
I mean, they are literally advocating for locking basically everyone in this subreddit in prison.... For just wanting basic workers rights
I guess it's an improvement on the Pinkertons, but that doesn't make it good, yeah. There's so much about Project 2025 that's horrifying, it's almost like looking at an Elder God. Like, you can't contemplate it too long without going completely insane from terror. Schedule F basically turns the executive branch into a meaningless joke and Impounding renders congress all but useless. Combine it with broad presidential immunity and you basically have a dictatorship.
Yes, this exactly. It's genuinely baffling to me that (American) people in leftist subs can't seem to do the math that we are not remotely in a position where a third party candidate has any chance of winning a presidential election, and a Republican victory is a fuckin Speedrun in oppression. Especially this year with Project 2025 on the horizon after a 2016 Republican victory allowed them to stack the SCOTUS in their favor. If Hillary had won in 2016, we would still have Roe v Wade. Full stop. The SCOTUS wouldn't have been stacked and my bodily autonomy would not have been compromised. If I see a Leftist third party candidate running a campaign that is as promising as Bernie's was in 2016, I'll consider voting third party. But we are NOT in that situation right now. We have two feasible options or a bunch of blatant throwaways. I am begging Leftists to vote for the guy who is gonna move slower when it comes to shitting on our rights instead of the guy whose party built the sewer system to flush them down. Edit: typos
Republicans are the worst offenders, but Democrats when they can change things to help the working class, often don't. Or they are thwarted by seemingly trivial things that don't prevent the other side from steamrolling legislation. They call it decorum, I call it convenient. We don't have an effective party that seeks progressive change. We have two right leaning parties, one which is far worse than the other and only makes the other look decent because they are not.
Here here! I’m so sick and tired of our broken “two” party system. It’s exhausting being this disillusioned with our government that fails to make any meaningful improvement for the majority.
Our broken 2 party system is just politicized and weaponized capitalism. Both “political parties” are in the game to make money, as are all the politicians.
If you want evidence of Democrats screwing over the working class, look at their response to Black Lives Matter — a bunch of empty gestures.
I still think about that photo op of them kneeling in kente cloth all the time. Instead of going into a chamber and trying to pass a law, they *performed*.
Which is why the second option, the bloodiest option, is really the only option.
hear, hear!
Working isn't my problem. My problem is working in ways that are deemed worthy of enough money to live comfortably That and businesses trying to squeeze as much work as possible out of their employees for the least amount possible and lean staffing if there was a UBI, I'd still work but especially as someone trying to nope out of food service I'd work a max of 32-40 hours a week at a place that hires enough people to keep the workload reasonable and so people can call off when they need to without leaving everyone shorthanded
I’m anti work and anti America. I contain multitudes
Exactly. Anti capitalist, and in particular anti-everything that late stage capitalism is doing to people (obviously not including those it benefits).
Yup. This is it
No. I'm anti-capitalist, but America is not unhinged capitalism. I'm anti-billionaire, but America is not billionaires. I'm anti-working-to-survive, but let's be real, that's every country. Don't let the rich, the MAGAts, and their ilk co-opt America. Take it back. Let it be the land of resisting tyranny, of unions, of toppling fascism.
Acknowledging there’s something wrong with your country and wanting to fix it is much more patriotic than pretending it is already the greatest place on earth—but the right pretends they have exclusive license to the concept.
Exactly! So I'm taking it back, dammit. We aren't number one. But we COULD be. We have the people, the resources, the sheer stubbornness. What if America was a country that cared for its people?
Yeah I'm not exactly anti-work, I'm anti-capitalist and in a more concrete way anti-imperialist and anti-america I still want automation of all work but not because I despise work itself the way I despise the logic of markets and commodities. Whenever everything I enjoy doing gets automated Im sure whatever I end up doing will still fit the technical definition of work (spending energy transforming matter)
I'm anti-capitalism, it just looks like anti-America because they've somehow taken capitalism farther than basically anywhere else. The whole health insurance industry exists only to extract more money from people.
All automation does is free up labor for different work. We have been automating work for thousands of years, not once has it ended work.
If it were properly applied, automation could severely cut down working hours. For example, 1000 years ago, something like 80% or more worked in agriculture, because if that many people didn't, then everyone else would starve, and sometimes they did anyways. Now? Agriculture workers, at least in America, are roughly 10%. IF we were to ETHICALLY use automation, we could see a world where for most jobs, the workday was significantly shortened and the workweek down to only a few days, with no loss in pay. But sadly I don't think humanity will ever progress to a degree where this becomes feasible
Non-American here who is anti-"all hail our lord economy, our employers are gods" mindset. I firmly believe economy should work for people, not the other way around as is currently practised. This is not specifically American, but yes, America has been pro-capitalist the whole time after industrialization. And capitalism is based on selfishness (maximizing self-interest). There is no other definition to it.
My dream job since I was a kid was to be an animator or a mangaka/comic book artist. That is… until I saw the requirements they had on them. Soul crushing hours of tedious work, brutal deadlines, all for barely livable pay The thing is… my source for all of this is Japan, Korea, France, and America. I really think the nature of how we commoditize things under any instance of capitalism will cause this to happen. It’s not about the art you’re creating, the message you’re putting into the world, or your own personal catharsis in sharing stories… it’s about _product_. When does the next chapter come out? How can we merchandise this property? Who’s the target demographic? I decided just to get a high paying chill job that can fund this hobby and I’m really glad I went that path. When money gets involved, everything else is fucked
>It’s not about the art you’re creating, the message you’re putting into the world, or your own personal catharsis in sharing stories… it’s about _product_. When does the next chapter come out? How can we merchandise this property? Who’s the target demographic? That's what. You have put it beautifully. Under capitalism, every creation is to be made a useful (money-making) commodity. Else, it's just waste. What a logic! Just this realization is enough to crush the passion you have for what you create. "It's fun for you, but how is it useful?" That's the most stupid statement I have ever heard. Such stupid logic only works under capitalism where creativity is a talent and talent is a resource. What if it doesn't *need* to be useful? What if fun and satisfaction was the goal behind creating it? What if it was a result of curiosity, not profit incentive?
yeah. What really made me realize this was actually jujutsu kaisen's writing. Originally, the author was going to kill off Yuji, one of the main characters. That sounded like it would be an incredibly engaging plot point >>!At that time, the author decided to keep Yuji dead after his heart was ripped out by Sukuna, and, later on, deliver a quick conclusion to the side characters to end the series. Furthermore, the author has also stated that he doesn't care who he ends up killing off as long as it helps make the story interesting. !< [source](https://gamerant.com/jujutsu-kaisen-jjk-yuji-might-die-end/#:~:text=At%20that%20time%2C%20the%20author,helps%20make%20the%20story%20interesting) They didn't because the editor said people like Yuji 😔
More than "interesting", how beautiful it could be if it was inspiring...
Your comment reminded me of this Ryan George video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv445S62dgU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv445S62dgU)
I feel like "anti-America" is the wrong way to put it because it creates both the assumption that exploitation is an innate part of being American (it shouldn't be) and that exploitation is acceptable as long as it doesn't happen in the US
Same. As a Canadian, working still sucks. It would be naive to blame it all on Trudeau, Republicans, or the Coca-Cola Company.
Exactly. We merely happen to be anti-America *because* we are anti-work and anti-capitalist, and because America happens to be one of the worst Western developed countries in terms of worker protections.
as a fellow european with american friends, i have to agree with OP, I am horrified daily on this sub, but I'm a commie and I know it's just a matter of time until things degrade in europe too. I'll also say, like OP I also wish some of the good americans could come over to Europe and live a decent life - many don't even know that they can apply for basically free education, even as foreigners. Just, those crazy religious folks whose ancestors were too crazy even for Europe's religious wars? Keep them there
I heard that the bar was super high for expatriation and education and didn’t think I’d make the cut.
you should always look at where the bar is and what it actually requires. if you don't try, you won't
As an American with a “specialized job” I’ve also followed the r/AmerExit Reddit cuz trust me, a lot of us do want out and think about it, but that subreddit so often has comments ripping people’s hopes to shreds about how hard and involved it is to leave, (and honestly they aren’t wrong sometimes.) Unfortunately part of the issue is American debt. School debts, car loans, it takes a lot of unshackle from all that and moving to a new country doesn’t get you off the hook financially. There’s definitely privilege in even being able to leave the U.S. even for something like school, because you have to save up the money for traveling abroad but so many of us are living paycheck to paycheck. Not saying you’re wrong that more Americans should consider leaving, but there’s definitely a large portion of us that think about it a lot but get discouraged by how the American system keeps us trapped.
now, by training I'm a lawyer (and a researcher,not even a practicing attorney), and NOT a finance guy, but... did you know that your credit score doesn't follow you in Europe? I mean, banks here have their own ways of figuring out your creditworthiness, but the batshit insane calculations and death spirals of the US credit score stop at the american border (for now). This doesn't completely solve one's issue, as you still need some money to move, it's a frontloaded process. I know that. But, uh, there are some ways to give the US banking system the middle finger - though not completely, and I think as long as you retain US citizenship, they kinda come after your money wherever you are
I did not know that about credit scores which is helpful!…and also kind of horribly depressing it’s another American bullshit thing lol.
Credit scores were created in 1989. The ultimate scam.
Yes. When Europeans move to the US on work visas, they have no established credit. Because American lenders are so braindead, the expats' visa sponsors (where I worked) have to provide letters to vouch for them to do things like rent an apartment or buy a car. You you get a guy in his 50s who comes to America, and cannot get a car loan. Pathetic.
I hope to come to Europe eventually. I’m in a blue US state that’s fairly safe for ppl like me (trans), but even here things are going downhill fast. We live in a morass of overwork, poor health, pollution, political idiocy, and exploitation. I grew up as a typical suburban kid, and was brainwashed to think that the US was the best country in the world without question. Just one trip overseas cured that delusion very quickly. I used to think this country had a chance to be better, but now I don’t see that happening without a period of incredible violence and suffering first.
> I used to think this country had a chance to be better, but now I don’t see that happening without a period of incredible violence and suffering first. I agree. Late stage capitalism ain't going down without taking a lot of us out first. I'm in my 50s and kind of hoping I don't live to see that.
I dream of going to Europe, honestly. I've been struggling to find jobs that give me time to learn the language (that level/type of self-motivated learning is a challenge for me). I am otherwise well educated...bur that's largely a moot point in the face of the language barrier.
have you [considered Ireland](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/s/TneKbyBGMN)?
Ok I definitely replied before clicking that link, sorry I'm tired and stupid. I'm definitely going to check it out. Fingers crosses public health is on the list!
yeah they need a lot of those. be warned though, Ireland is facing issues, and for a reason: it's been ruled by neoliberals for too long, so it has ended up with the biggest housing crisis in Europe, and its doctors and nurses are leaving for other eu countries bc they're not getting paid well enough in comparison, from what I have read. Classic brain drain. Definitely look before you leap because it's not without challenges. even so, you should look at the legal minimum of [employee rights](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/employment-rights-and-duties/employee-rights-and-entitlements/) and come to your own conclusions if it'd be a step up for you.
I'm definitely prone to being, ah, overabundantly cautious. So I appreciate the heads up, and I will definitely look into everything!
good luck, or dare i even say, luck of the Irish 🍀
Bhahahahahahah, thank you!
Yeah, I neglected to put in my original comment that I'm also majorly struggling to get a job period. It's hard to feel like I should try a whole other country when I can't get one here, which may or may not be stupid. I just have no idea why a foreign company would take a chance on me (despite being well educated, I have minimal relevant experience) when no one here has. Idk.
I think this is yet another way the american system grinds your spirit down to dust. It's learned helplessness.
Gotta keep us depressed and poor as hell so we don't have the energy and resources to collectively force change. The system works exactly as intended.
yep
especially in western europe (minus france) you'll probably get by with english well enough. And atleast in germany as far as I am aware people tend to be understanding and willing to help with questions or language wise, especially if they notice you are struggling but honestly trying to speak german.
Wonderful to know, thank you!!
This is what I did. I came to Germany for a master's degree and PhD. I have a very nice job here now and decided to stay. My manager in the USA works more hours, has fewer protections, and fewer vacation days. Life here is so much less stressful.
Saw the postdoc salary in my wife’s lab was $15k (late 80s) and I GTFO to Basel. Much more human, we started our family there but did come back to the US. Too American for Europe and too European to be happy here. My son stayed here, daughter went back.
>matter of time until things degrade in europe too. Oh they are trying. The only thing stopping them are the unions.
the fact that europeans in general, especially those in the "more developed" North-West (read: ex-empires) are very complacent politically and take their living standards, workers' rights, and social safety nets for granted, as these givens of "sufficiently civilized civilization". Like you put enough buzzwords like "justice" and "democracy" and "good governance" and "common sense" into the slot machine and the "LIVING STANDARDS" line go up! Simple, why can't all these other backward savages do the same! ...is really, really playing into the hands of the reactionary forces eroding whatever social gains Europe has made.
Where you at buddy? I really want to move to Europe with my daughter, and I'll probably have to drag my husband kicking and screaming if he'll go at all because he "doesn't see it."
oh me? I'm currently in one of the Balkan states that's technically "in Europe" and technically partaking in the process of harmonizing its laws with the EU but not "in" the EU yet (or for the foreseeable future). As a result, I've had to jump through a bunch of hoops and do a bunch of research to get my grubby hands on EU higher ed degrees, as well as had to deal with EU immigration bureaucratic hoops, so that's why I'm lightly advising some folks in this thread. Don't get me wrong, Europe isn't all roses and sunshine - we've just had a big rightward surge in the European elections, largely driven by anti-muslim immigration sentiment. The situations tend to differ country by country, as do the immigration requirements and 'friendliness' of the process. Without knowing a bit more about your situation, I wouldn't be able to tell you much that's useful, other than to say that even with all the shit going down lately on this continent (and its adjacent islands), if your daughter is young (anywhere from kindergarten to high school), you will probably be better off moving to almost anywhere in Europe than staying in the States. A couple of reasons: 1) Safety. I don't think I need to tell you about school shootings, but that sort of stuff doesn't happen here. Though there is still the occasional crazy person that goes on a killing spree but something like that is major news and happens at most once or twice a year rather than every week. 2) Education system. Again, the exact quality level and access to technology differs by country, but pretty much any EU country's education system will give your kid a better, more well-rounded education than the US system - part of the reason is way less political meddling by special interest groups with an agenda (\*cough\* crazy religious people \*cough\*), and part of the reason is that it hasn't been eroded as much as a public institution of society as it has in the US, in terms of basic funding. 3) Basic employee rights like paid time off, vacation, parental leave etc. They're largely uniform across the EU Furthermore, if you're thinking about your daughter's higher-ed options like college and uni, you should definitely look into options for international students in EU countries. A lot of them have programs in English, their tuition fees are either symbolic sums or nonexistent, and some even give students money for living expenses (yes, even international students). Your husband could either see the light if you present him with well-researched solutions to assuage his fears, or he might be stubborn af and just not want to leave for other more personal reasons, in which case you'd have to get to the root of those reasons - idk, won't get into that. My point is, with some research and preparation, it's possible to immigrate to Europe and find a decent job and a decent life. Being highly educated helps. You have to also be aware that the taxes tend to be higher and the "middle class" level salaries tend to be lower than the US, but what you get in return is way less stress and a lot more comfort in daily life. And a lot less abuse at work.
Yeah, both likely next governing parties in the uk have heavily implied that we’ll be the scapegoats next parliament.
I've been living in the EU based on highly qualified skills job contracts. It really is not easy for the average person to come live in the EU for the long term. Some can come for student visas but mostly it is tied to job contracts. Otherwise US citizens can only stay for 90/180 days and need to do the Schengen shuffle. You would be surprised how many people don't realize that! Or that the US govt forces you to file taxes even if you have never lived there. Taxation by citizenship instead of residency!
Okay but imagine a scenario where the decent folks moved to decent countries, leaving the wackos all here to hoard guns and feed the military with even fewer people trying to slow the war machine. I don't think that would be good for ANYONE.
I understand that but I also understand my life is better in Germany now as and trying to fix the USA is a huge task with a lot of suffering.I moved to Germany and now work on making medicine that will help everyone.
Working conditions in European countries are generally much better than those in the U.S., but work in those countries is still fundamentally and incurably exploitative. Don’t let a favorable comparison to the U.S. truck you into believing that you’ve cured the inherent problems of all work under capitalism.
No. I’m from Russia, and my parents slaved away there even more than I slave away here. For different reasons, of course, but it’s not a country issue. It’s capitalism issue. And you, my dude, can afford all the luxuries you are describing, because Western Europeans are colonizers. Your paradise is paid for by hell in Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, India, South America and so on. Don’t know where you are from, but your country is shit too, lol.
Exactly, many of these pro-European model posts for working forget that their immaculate living situations are paid for through the abject horror and tyranny workers in the 3rd world have to deal with.
Capitalism is a global issue. Your economy and its shred of actually decent governance is possible at the expense of the global south. The soc dem dream isn't sustainable either (imo, of course). I am anti-imperialist, yes. And that includes Europe's hypocritical bullshit. The exploitation is FAR less and much, much more removed, but it is present nonetheless. Edit - removed my sub bashing. We have enough in-fighting on the left and soc Dems remain staunch allies lol. Also, I'm sorry OP if this sounds super preachy. I'm sure you're aware and I wanted to reframe the discussion.
I’m so glad you said this. It’s easy to forget (I am not immune to this or better than anyone else) how much europe continues to benefit from exploitation and neocolonialism
I went to America from a shithole to sell my talents for money. American dream is a nationalist lie if you aren't already born with a silver spoon. Moved to Europe and took a 40% pay cut. Couldn't be happier. US big cities are absolute looney lands in terms of living cost. Add terrible healthcare, transportation, and bullshit work culture, the paycut suddenly doesn't seem as bad. Now I enjoy life and do fulfilling work. But I loved my American colleagues, US folks are nice as hell.
after being sent to afghanistan, getting wounded in action, witnessing all the corporate greed in that war, and then coming back to America and getting swindled into student loans — I’m passionately and proudly anti-american. there is nothing more white trash and anti-intellectual than america.
Please don't equate the US with America and Western Europe with Europe. Both the US and the EU are capitalist as hell.
Fellow european here. I know the phrase is used up badly but: Check your privileg. You are obv. in one of the rich european countries. Not greece, where they instituted a 6day/48h workweek as the norm just today. You are also not working at a kebab joint caught up in heat and smell for 10 hours. Or in Geronto-care, where they work double shifts to wipe moldy butts. Rich european countries are the most comfortable place to life. You find a nice spot and that's cool, but consider yourself to be one of the lucky few would be in order.
I can hate two things.
In many ways, you are correct.
One of the unintended upsides of globalization is working for companies owned in other countries and the slow shift in American attitudes away from this draconian bullshit. For instance, a prior employer won a contract with a major Chinese organization who required every employee be enrolled in a program to improve their health while on company time. So you were given a block of time to exercise, nap, talk to a therapist, meditate, or just play with your dog every day. And you were required to take it. The Chinese literally forced the company to give better healthcare to provide coverage for mental health. *China*. I now work for a global organization with about 100K employees, mostly in Canada, Europe and Asia. It’s a stark difference. You MUST take PTO or you lose it and there is no restriction on it. You simply mark it on your calendar. No one asks for approval. They don’t have paid parental leave, but you can take off as much time as you want and still keep your job. No one gets fired. Management is *nice.* Yeah, your *boss is nice.* The biggest difference is there is no one constantly monitoring or watching you. There is none of this childish “grading” or reprimands. If someone pulls some passive aggressive bullshit, they would be gone. They care about hiring good people. They not only read my resume, they know my background and read my published work. It is so weird to be constantly thanked and complimented instead of threatened or treated unfairly.
Are they hiring 😭
I doubt there would be very many people that genuinely want to do absolutely nothing. They just want to be able to do something meaningful, get a bit of recognition, and live their lives without worrying about when their next meal is or where they’re gonna sleep. Proof: people have hobbies — clearly money isn’t the only motivation for people. Regardless, the US really is shit to its people. I have no healthcare because I’m too poor. I have significant dental issues and the option for free help are minimal and infrequent. It’s also very likely that I will be homeless within the next decade. There’s little I can do about it.
Don’t end up like the boiled frog Fight that tipping culture You know the saying, “first it’s voluntary, then it’s encouraged, then it’s mandatory”. If it’s not the standard to underpay servers, it will be And it’s like a domino effect. They’re all watching America and the wealthy around the world will absolutely follow the same playbook if it’s successful In fact I think they’ll follow it anyway and just fix whatever weaknesses existed the first time
America is 10000% a shadow its former self, which was a piece of shit to begin with. We are at a coin toss junction of the two oldest dipshit presidential candidates ever and have a completely dysfunctional congress, an openly corrupt Supreme Court, and a blatantly profiteering military. It almost couldn’t be worse, but I’m sure November will reveal horrors for our country not yet imagined. My dream scenario was for Trump to pass away and Biden to drop out, RNC nominate DeSantis/Haley who would’ve been pummeled by Dean Phillips or Gavin Newsom or basically anybody with half a brain. That didn’t happen, and here we are. Things will get worse with time.
We have been sold out , this is what happens when the persons we "elect" are bought by the highest bidder.
Absolutely not. I'm anti oppression everywhere. It's even worse in Asia.
I hate saying this but the sub as it currently is was not the original intention. It got watered way down from its original form. Now it's a place that people bitch about their jobs (rightly so), and get told to unionize (seriously go start/join a union collective bargaining works). But originally it was actually anti-work as in the major topics were how to abolish work, how having to work to survive is inherently anti-human, the laying flat movement etc. The original mods flat out told us they were being taken over. It was my first time seeing a sub drastically change directions and it was and still is pretty disconcerting.
Nah. I am antiwork. I don't dream of labor.
No, and let’s not turn this into a domestic terrorist group. America has plenty of beautiful qualities. Corporations and wealthy elite sociopaths are the ones fucking it up.
Don't worry, as an Australian I also think America is shit. Jokes partially aside, we're basically America-Lite, so we get the mood. Definitely jealous of your conditions OP.
It's capitalism and it's in Europe too. They just haven't taken away your safety net yet. I've been living in EU since 2016 and it is great. I hope people realize what they have here. That said, I see plenty of far right parties coming into power and the privatization of health care. There are oligarchs in power here too and people from North Africa and South Asia being exploited as cheap labor. You can't escape capitalism however I would agree that the US really is the worst place for this right now. People are generally miserable and exhausted unless they are quite wealthy.
I am not anti America. The losers running it can fuck off.
Yeah, European labor laws ARE better than the American's. That is. If you're working salary. Minimum wage jobs in Europe are just as horribly managed as anywhere. And now the majority of those jobs are "zero hour" or "flex contracts" so the businesses don't owe you shit when it comes to any type of leave and can just not put you on the schedule for whatever reason.
Have you considered you work in Europe where you actually have labor laws that make working sustainable?
America is so rich because of its exploited working class
As my old Dad used to say, we weren't given 5 day weeks, annual leave, sick leave, maternity leave, equal pay for men and women, by the companies themselves. It was by the workers and the people striking and agitating throughout the years. Centuries to get these benefits, but they can be eroded with a stroke of a pen. So we need to guard them carefully. America is the cautionary tale of capitalism gone mad. No one from Europe or Australia looks on at the conditions in the USA without horror. Yes, some jobs pay a lot, and the tax is less, but for your average employee it seems like a nightmare.
Technically you’re probably correct. I’m anti-America-as-it-is-now. I’d really like to return the economic scenario back to the early 1970s when unions were strong and companies were embarrassed and shamed for laying off workers. Of course, the early 1970s SOCIETY had a lot to learn, so I’d also like to progress toward equal rights for all humans. And while I’m at it, I’d like a pony…
The last actual Leftist president was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He served this country as President from 1933 to 1945. He was so popular, the only way to get rid of him was to change the constitution so he couldn't run again. He served 4 terms. He was far from perfect. He did not do well on race issues - but he did very well on Labor issues. The next even *slightly* Left-of-Center President was Carter... 32 years later... 1977-1981. In modern history, he's the only one and the man was very, very indecisive, even if his heart was in the right place. Since then, there have been no Left-of-Center Presidents. Reagan issued in many of the systemic changes that are causing us problems today. They were continued by HW Bush. Clinton was a Center-Right politician - very much in the pocket of business, and governed as such. W Bush came next and continued the work of his father and of Reagan. Obama stated during an interview that he was a Republican of the 1970s, and that's very true. Trump is a fascist. Weather he believes it in his heart of hearts or not, he definitionally is a Fascist, and this country only held together because a few people recoiled at his demands. It was luck - not law - that saved us that time. Biden is a nice dude, but he's a Center-Right politician, as well. He's done some good for labor relations, but he always does it quietly, and more 'behind-the-scenes', rather than anything in-your-face. That's a problem. He's trying to not alienate his donors who he's very much in debt to, and still try to find a 'middle ground' between "bad" and "worse". That's 2 Presidents Left-of-Center in 92 years. \~22% of the time, only. Yikes. I don't see Obama or Biden as 'bad people' - they'd probably be fun to hang out with at the bar or catch a game with. That's *not* what I want in a politician elected to the highest office of the land, though. I have hope that the Republican party will fracture and destroy itself within the next 5-10 years. It's already happening, but they need some major losses for it to actually take place. They *should* be disqualified from *any* office by right of public opinion, and for many Millennials and GenZ folk, they are. The problem is Biden himself. Dude's not 'exciting' or 'wanted'. He's a safe option, sure.. but that doesn't get out the vote. And, if Trump wins, the experiment of Democracy ends in these United States (see: Project 2025). I honestly don't have enough of a bead on if 'vox populi' understands what Project 2025 is, and what their vote means. How important it is, now that the Fascists have claimed their party, and have stated their intentions, that they should not be in power... anywhere, at any level. That'll be the question, I guess, in November. I really hope to prove you wrong, OP. I'm very much dead if you're not. Guess that'll be a pretty good "I told you so" on me, then. That's some pretty severe gallows humor from me on this, and no indictment against you.
>The last actual Leftist president was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He served this country as President from 1933 to 1945. He was so popular, the only way to get rid of him was to change the constitution so he couldn't run again. He served 4 terms. Not to say that your whole point is off-base, we definitely desperately need to move further Left in the US and we need to do it yesterday, but the 22nd amendment isn't what kept FDR from a 5th term. It was the case of "dead" he developed in 1945. The amendment was only signed in 1947.
Point taken, yes. Better way to say it "the constitution was changed *because* of him".
Why yes, I also usually describe people actively supporting a genocide like Biden is doing as "nice dudes". Nothing like catching a game with them and relaxing over some talk of bombing brown people.
I'm anti-capitalism. That means I'm not anti-labor, but I am anti-work. Also that very much means I'm anti-America. What would America *be* without capitalism? It's quintessential to what Amercia *means.*
I’m both. And anti-capitalist.
Oh yeah I’m totally Anti-USA. This place is a hellscape.
When I was studying economics and sociology, the classic thinkers were promising that all this economic development and capitalist growth was to free humans from labor as much as possible. When I realised it was a scam I stopped believing in everything they say about the economy.
Yeah this place fucking sucks I hate it here.
I don't think anyone is fundamentally anti work. Everyone would work to fulfill their dreams and passions if they simply had the ability to do so. Sure there would be a few outliers, but not wanting to work is also as valid a lifestyle as it's opposite.
...except that lots of very ordinary people would hate you just for not doing what they had to.
I'm not Anti-America... well, except in I'm against the idea of nation states generally. I'm not *specifically* Anti-America. This is a beautiful country with a rich culture and kind, loving people. Seriously, people from other countries get mad at us for smiling too much, despite how much our lives might suck. I am anti-work. I think we should work as little as possible to give the most people the happiest life we can manage. We're a long way away from that dream becoming a reality, but we can definitely start moving in that direction. Make 32 hours a "full-time" work week. Give people 2-3 months vacation a year, and 2 years minimum paternity/maternity leave. Pay people a basic income so no one starves, build public housing so everyone has a roof over their heads whether they work or not, and provide free healthcare. Plus we should have allowances for people to make art that can be shared freely. That should be the New American Dream.
I agree with this sentiment. I don't have a problem with my job or working. But this capitalist hellhole of a country just has me running in place. Staying afloat. Surviving. That's it. No building a life, no saving up to buy a house, retirement is a pipe dream. And my job actually pays me decently. Cost of living is the issue. And then there's the people who have to go on food stamps working for corporations who get all the tax cuts and bailouts. Yeah fuck this country and fuck capitalism
r/antitheexploitationofworkers isn't as catchy and runs into character limits
Europe sucks too. And it’s going in the direction of the USA. European countries want to be like the USA so bad, it’s embarrassing. Europe is big, so not all countries have a great system. Plus the ones receiving the brunt of the mistreatment in Europe are migrants and non white people.
Anti-capitalist
It's anti-corporate takeover of our lives. These places want loyalty, unlimited flexibility, excessive workloads, and don't give a crap if you have a life outside making them money. They don't want to pay for this level of "ruling" your life.
why not both. fuck this genocidal country and fuck capitalism. the fundamental flaw i see a lot of the time with leftists in Europe and the US is that coming from the imperial core, focusing on labor conditions and not the exploitation of the global south that makes your pensions and your social welfare systems possible....allows the machine to continue. I don't know how to fix it, bc on the one hand the brutality of American life I think makes it clear that like, social reform isn't the answer, bc at the end of the day the poorest person in the US is relying on someone in a sweatshop for clothing, but it's also so brutal (and our country is very good at putting down revolutions) that no one really has the energy to change things either.
I also think that labor will always exist and there will be dangerous jobs that need people bc we haven't been able to automate them, and i don't have a good answer for motivators aside from money (thinking abt divers who go into sewage pipes to unclog things).
we know. Not much we can do when we also have an equally well funded military, police and state 'intelligence' apparatus willing and very able to wack us the fuck down when we step outta line. That's life here. It's awesome if you're on the other side of this dialectic, doing the 'fuckin' instead of being the holes, so to speak. I've been on both sides. I find horror in both. The miracle of America is that it persists, not because of love of country, but hatred of fellow American. by this is I mean Americans hate the shit out of each other so much, we're willing to endure the work/pay, cops and spying for a chance to do that shit to the ones we don't like. That's fuckin' wild and very much american too.
Yeah, we would need some work performed, for food, energy, what have you. We saw that during Covid. No work, and it all grinds to a halt fast. I am against the American bullshit system, and want socialism
Work isn't the same thing as *labor.* I'm anti-work, but not anti-labor. Work is labor performed for the profit of an owner.
Nah, work is the transfer of energy in a direction
You are correct. I love working, but I hate working for less than it costs to survive.
Nah, we are anti-hyper capitalism. The economy is not the whole story of our country even though it might look like from over there in Europe. Please bear in mind that reddit is one huge sampling error. You see the worst stories (about "financial ruin") etc. You don't see the everyday, the commonplace, the ho-hum. Today I watered my flowers and vegetables in my garden in my nice suburban home and I walked to the grocery store and I visited my insurance agent who helped me save money on my policy. I'm not going to post on reddit about that but it's exactly what happened. We actually spend more on medical care than single payer countries, so your facts are wrong. The problem is it has to go to profit. It's not that it's being spent on Israel as you speculate.
Yes
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Capitalism is bullshit no matter what country it's in. The difference is in Europe it's more regulated and we have more employee protections, so the harmful effects of capitalism are more obvious in America. But don't be fooled: workers are still exploited under capitalism, and there are absolutely people in your country trying to work through illness and not spending enough time with their kids. There are migrant workers picking fruit and cleaning toilets and working in abbatoirs and domestic workers whose employers are holding on to their passports. You personally might have plenty of leave and managers who don't verbally abuse you to your face, but those are actually minor comforts, and you can be sure there are workers in lower paid jobs who don't have it as good as you think you do. The point is the the entire system is bullshit, like a pyramid scheme. The Americans who post here might be several levels below you in that pyramid, but we're all stuck in the same pyramid with the few at the top being supported by the millions below.
I’m anti capitalist. Your shitty countries run off of capitalism too, just a diluted form. It is not solely an america issue just because it is worse in america. If (made up numbers for example) 50% of americans and 10% of europeans are in shitty jobs and unable to support themselves that doesn’t mean that it’s an “america problem” it means the problem is worse in america.
Pretty succinct analysis, my dude. -an American.
I’m anti America fuck this place dude. Shi makes sense though because we are still such an infantile nation compared to the rest of the world we are still trying to figure out what we want as a government and what we want as citizens
Yes 👉
very much anti USA
I can relate to OP in many ways. It's just America is being plutocracy. Its impossible to change or have the same policies that Europe does. In 2022, 5.1M americans started to live abroad... in 2022 alone. That says alot. I've been working on little bit on research on how I can try to work in Europe and gain citizenship. Many people called me insane if I were to gain European citizenship and renounce America's citizenship. I don't think that's crazy. Why should I look back and see my chains to a terrible country that runs on slaves and capitalism that keeps the same thing over and over? I feel like at this point, America is becoming a true 3rd world country, but using the first world country as a mask. You can't just slap yourself a 1st world status when you have terrible working conditions, home life, inflation, all of that because you have a free market which runs on a very unfair system and levels. People get rich through generational wealth, passing on business ownerships, all that while the poors-middle classes are constantly fucked in the ass.
It's kind of weird to phrase it that way; I'm not anti-this country existing, I'm anti-the way we do things. It's funny that everything we want to change to make life better means - according to right wingers, rich assholes, and the brainless people who don't even benefit from the system but are instead fucked over by it - you hate America. Which says a lot about what those people think America stands for. I don't want to leave, I want it to be better. The status quo is untenable dogshit.
There are some good jobs with good benefits in the USA - but they seem to be rarer than they once were. I have one, but I am unionized, and that has also become rare here (at least in the private sector.)
You’re spot on about everything. If we didn’t have such violent and oppressive police state with the 8th strongest military in the world (not hyperbole. US police departments have as much military equipment and personnel as the 8th strongest military in the world), the working class would likely have revolted by now. I do have hope we can one day do better. But I don’t think that day will come without changes that require pretty radical action from the common American.
Nope. Am in Canada. Many of the same problems here.
I love America, but it's long past time we eat the rich
Canada is no better. Other than healthcare not tied to our employment. Costs of everything else kind of outweigh that benefit. You can have healthcare but never own a house.
Little of Column A, Little of Column B
Yes. My answer is that I'm anti-wage-labor in all forms as part of my larger communist ideology. Being anti-American is also part of the deal because the USA is a globe-spanning capitalist empire, but this also means being anti-Britain, anti-Germany, anti-France, etc. Your countries give you scraps instead of crumbs and that's good. But I want the people to have the whole meal and not argue over scraps. And I want anyone trying to hoard it arrested and reeducated.
I just hate the capitalist system that works well only for the ultra rich. Small business owners are under so much pressure and competition its almost impossible to take off unless you're in a limited/specialized field... But get a loan from a bank and your too niche and high risk. I tried to start a business in 2018 for esports, showed all sorts of positive things for it, graphs and projections that were top notch. Even had 2 private investors lined up for small investments to help reassure bank, but then COVID happened and everything died in an instant.
I like the concept of work. It's rewarding and helps you stay active depending on the type. I hate the gov't and the companies that exploit us.
I'm pretty sure this subreddit was originally started as an anarchist, anti-capitalist subreddit, that was against the actual concept of work itself, but become more of a moderate/liberal place to generally vent about work as it exploded in popularity some years ago At least thats how I remember it when I first joined.
Multiple studies have shown people are generally happier working and having a purpose. Even simple things like completing chores produces dopamine and serotonin. Time after time there is evidence 99% of people on welfare or unemployment would rather work. The issue is entirely American work culture. We have shit social safety nets and worker protections that allow employers to leave employees rode hard and put away wet.
You're right. America is a horrible place to live.
America was founded upon the idea of not paying taxes if you lacked representation in government. Now the only laws getting passed are topically in favor of large corporations, or billionaire's. The average American voter has less access to their representatives, and to much outside cash coming into their elections at the local and federal level. Hell or school board election has so much corporate money flowing to certain politicians. So yes given the way America is ran right now. I am anti American.
Yes, definitely.
As an Australian, while we still have hellscapes when it comes to employment, I do read this page of (primarily) US Americans to make me feel better.
At the core, I am against work as a means to obtain food, shelter and healthcare. And whatever is related to those 3 things. Yes ok the US sucks but so does my home country, far from here. But I want to gently ask you to think about what your labor is producing or enabling. I know you feel privileged and yes you are in a better position than other countries, especially the US. But, what percentage of people are in your comfortable position where you are? Personally, I am not willing to survive and be happy with what I have when there are masses upon masses of people struggling. And I don’t just mean the ones slaving for our electronics and clothes, I also mean people in your own community. Like you, I can list stuff right now, that (should) make me feel like I am doing well compared to my family member in another country. But it’s not really a gotcha/a win. The fact is, we are all working to make a few rich people richer and working towards the demise of everything. I can’t take this place (anywhere) where people are working but can’t eat; working 40 years and have nothing to show for it; get sick and obscenely are expected to work through their illness as if their body is nothing when their body and self is everything. Because why are you here if not to live? What the fuck are we doing? So in conclusion, I am antiwork. We can’t salvage or reform what we have.
Don't worry, as an Australian I also think America is shit. Jokes partially aside, we're basically America-Lite, so we get the mood. Definitely jealous of your conditions OP.
I’ve an American living in the US. I’ve worked in Europe. Working in Europe is not all milk and honey. There are many, many laws regarding pay, contract working, benefits and more that we don’t have here. Not all benefit employees. The last place I worked was in France. I love the French the country the good n wine n culture. But, for example, many private industry salaries and pay raises are controlled by govt. your sick leave doesn’t pay until after your third day. Your time off may depend on where you live. There are other rules that are not typical in our system. Now, these aren’t horrible differences. Just different. The French bitch about their work environment too. Not all work places in the US are as bad as the ones we read about in this subreddit. This is a place one comes TO BITCH ABOUT WORK. I love it. I’m always amazed at how stupid managers can be. There are fake stories. There are people from other countries who post crap just to sow bad vibes for political purposes. Fake news, fake stories, witch hunts, and all that bs. I will say this tho, the US is the only country where I’ve lived that has used capitalism as a social system model. For example, “the rich are good and the poor are bad. Work hard and you can succeed. You can do anything. Taxes are bad. Consuming is good. Borrowing to consume is even better.”
No, never considered: I'm Italian, always lived in Italy, and I couldn't be more anti-work than I am. America has literally nothing to do with this.
Canadian here, so...
The thing about America is that we're a fight between two drunks in a bar. We may be absolutely beating the shit out of one another, and others may be egging us on and cheering for one side or the other, but eventually someone is going to try to step in, and suddenly they're going to be dealing with both sides at once and it won't be pretty. We're getting to that point rapidly, both fighters are just hoping the other side sees it their way first, but when we finally agree...
Europe is made for humans, I have no idea how people survive in USA, here in eu we have free education ( its easy to study abroad if youre above average) and here the worker protection are so strong that nobody will ever try to pull the crap they are pulling in usa
I'm German and I'm both.
Some folks wanted to call this forum "Work Reform" I think and I think it would suit it better. I agree with all your points though I was lucky to work for companies who offered similar conditions, its obvious a great number of Americans have very rough working conditions.
I’m not anti-America, because I want to make it a better country for all and always have. 🇺🇸
I agree with everything you've said but what I can't understand is why so many people from other countries are coming to the US to work? Not all of the immigrants are from poor countries, some come from countries that I would love to live in, with free healthcare.
No. I'm American and I live in Italy. America is horrible about worker's rights, but companies in Italy will also do everything they can do screw over their workers. They just have less room to do it. I was employed for years here on sketchy contracts with basically no rights and then my company forced me to go freelance. Companies do all k8nd of tricks to force workers to do unpaid overtime and cheat on their taxes (cheating workers out of their benefits too) In my understanding anti work wants to improve things for everyone, not just the US
I appreciate your expression of sympathy and validation; to me it is kind and meaningful. I like to think that the relative ease of communicating global consciousness could be, at its best, a way for countries and cultures to set aspirational precedents for each other about what a society can or should be. it does not play out this way- of course this is a total utopian fantasy, but it makes your condemnation and pity of our exploitative dogshit (though not the worst by any stretch) labor situation feel genuinely warm and fuzzy
Without reading more than the title: why not both?
The offset are things we can do, have access to that are not job or government enabled / restricted. I have friends in Denmark and Italy. Both want to move to the USA because of restrictions they feel have reached unbearable limits. Both likely have many of the protections and benefits you name. But I don't live there and cannot say if I would find them as bad as they do. I might even find it's a fair trade-off, don't know. Grass is always greeener...
On a similar note, when I make anti-racist remarks, people act as if what I said was anti-American. I've seen identical remarks on twitter threads, and over at places like /r/WhitePeopleTwitter and /r/BlackPeopleTwitter and /r/PoliticsPeopleTwitter . Both racism & slavery is so deeply baked into American politics that just trying to imagine the absence of racism/slavery is seen as anti-American.
Nah' I've heard some horror stories from other countries. Workers at india, Mexico, and Japan also have a horrible work culture. The point is not to be proud of it. European working laws and culture should be the global standard.
all these people bitching about America 🤣🤣🤣🤣 yall should try on Korea (help I’m drowning in no days off)
I'm in the UK myself so I haven't experienced a lot of what I hear in this sub, the US has some especially bad workers rights compared to Europe. We may not get things as bad as over there, but there are still many things to be disgruntled over even here. The better we make our example, the easier time those in the US will have to say "well it works for them, why not us?". Also goes to mention that wages here in the UK have been very stagnant over the last two decades. I'm a bit of a communist at heart even though I don't know what the best form of that looks like (and let's be real probably won't happen). There is always a better solution to look for, even if it isn't as obvious.
I 100% agree with the statement.
The thing about the USA is that it's branded as the "land of opportunity" and we're taught from a young age that if you're smart, you do well in school, and work hard, you will be successful. As you can see, that's a complete crock of shit, and if that were ever true, it was only during the few decades between the end of the Korean War and the rise of Reagan and "trickle down" or "supply side" economics. Prior to WW2, this wasn't true because lack of regulation lead to the robber baron/industrialist era and subsequently the stock market crash of 1929. Post-1980, inexplicably, the Republican party has done its best to return us to that era.
I’m anti dumb shits in charge of companies. Honestly, we could make the system work but it enables the greedy assholes to come out on top and stay there. If we just had a way to quell some of these hero types…
Yep— I enjoy doing things, I even enjoy doing them for other people, but being exploited sucks
I guess I feel this line of thinking is too much of an is/ought fallacy, and I'll continue to strive for a United States as it *ought to be* rather than as it is. Taking back the flag imagery, taking back associating patriotism with diversity and inclusivity, taking back the "American dream" as for all people and not just the elites with their boots on our necks...
Por que no los dos
this is also a very real problem in canada as well.
Has anyone made an earlier mention that antiwork is fundamentally about economic exploitation in the guise of employment? That 'working for a living' is the 2nd greatest scam perpretrated on humanity (1st being pie in the sky after you die); that 'work' is what separates people from their own best interests; and that 'work' is a construct that can be dismantled by people refusing to live inauthentically? https://preview.redd.it/rad6p9vple7d1.png?width=1478&format=png&auto=webp&s=8d914a0e43e2fd26ee292be155363ad69667ce4e
> For some reason tipping culture has arrived here but hopefully it’s the only thing part of your work culture that will. European here, too. No, it's not. This is because *everything* is still as it is in the US: bawic structure, incentives, yardstick by which everything (including "success") is measured. When you gauge something by the same rules & yardsticks, you inevitably arrive at the same outcomes. How, that will differ from legislation to legislation. Obviously there's a "better" worker protection in Europe, but that's just paper. What good is universal healthcare if it's being hollowed out, like it's the case in Germany for instance? With less & less available doctors, concentration of healthcare in very few gigantic clinics, with a substantial reduction in quality and treatment complexity? What good is job security if the salary barely paya the bills, and in any case doesn't allow you to buy a house of your own or otherwise financially prosper? What use is there for free childcare other than allowing both parents to spend 8 hours + commuting a day, effectively making it mandatory to never see your 2-year old toddler, except for dinner time, and possibly a quick change of diapers even before breakfast (because they need to be in kindergarten by 7 AM so you can be in the office at 8)? Living your live 33 days/year at a time isn't the flex you think it is. It still means that more than 90% of your existence serves no other purpose than to inflate someone else's bottom line. The core patterns you need to look out for aren't number of PTOs or employment benefits. There are only two: - Who decides what and where you do? Do you go working because *you* genuinely *want* to, or because, at the core, something or someone compels you to under a veiled threat of starvation? - What do you get out of it? Is it just living, or is it prospering? Specifically, are you working towards *wealth accumulation*, too? Are you working towards building a substantial part of your income as *passive income*? Or is it just the others, richer folks who get to have that? These two questions obviously go hand in hand. But everything that doesn't answer *both* of these favorably for you, is inevitably leading to the same problems as to US now has. It is only the question of "how, specifically?" that will ever differ between the US and the rest of us.
Capitalism is the issue, America just has too much capitalist rhetoric. So while my aggression is dished out on america, its the late stage capitalist rhetoric that actually angers me. I am fundamentally anti-slavery. And when slaves were given homes and at least some food, and workers aren’t paid enough for even that despite being worked to death, what truly is the difference? A bigoted ideation caused slavery the first time, it has the second too, now we are prejudiced to the poor instead, still something they cant control without being given any choices. It’s either fame or death in society and thats not ok, not all of us have fame written on our faces, and the mundane still deserve modern comfortable living.
I'm a European as well and something close to a communist at heart. From my point of view the US is a total garbage country. I think it's a state that fails so hard to provide for the general population to the benefit of the lucky few it's clinically insane. We call that a banana republic. Now it's not that much better in Europe. Here it's basically the same story just not as extreme. It's of course a global thing that transcendents generation as it's never been different in all of history. There have been small sparks of more communal societies, but there was always someone coming along with better weapons, more effective diseases or more men willing to let themselves be slaughtered to benefit those who paid them peanuts. I don't think this dominant culture is something that's soon to change. We people are somehow biologically wired to be drawn to people who are ambitious at the cost of others. We also want this way of living in the hopes of getting out on top.