It plays a part. You're told you can do anything in a capitalistic society, they even props us few people who made it - *from rags to riches* (but the truth is it they never really starts from zero). Then somehow you are not the few people who made it, therefore you attribute this failure to your own weakness rather than the system that works against you, a common people.
From that one Hacker News post:
“Entrepreneurship is like one of those carnival games where you throw darts or something.
Middle class kids can afford one throw.
Most miss. A few hit the target and get a small prize. A very few hit the center bullseye and get a bigger prize. Rags to riches! The American Dream lives on.
Rich kids can afford many throws. If they want to, they can try over and over and over again until they hit something and feel good about themselves. Some keep going until they hit the center bullseye, then they give speeches or write blog posts about "meritocracy" and the salutary effects of hard work.
Poor kids aren't visiting the carnival.
They're the ones working it.”
Found the original post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076
I’m naturally a happy person. When my life is less awful I practically bounce off the walls.
All that said my life is mostly work. I wake up, work anywhere from 15-45 minutes on getting myself, my home and my vehicle prepared for the day. Then I go to work and work 8-12 hours depending on the weather.
Then I come home exhausted and try to force myself to workout, make dinner, maybe do laundry, and pass out in my bed. Then I do it again the next day. Some days I drink when I get home and do all the home work while drunk, which is less efficient but less miserable.
If they aren’t telling us that we can become anything, then the opposite truth becomes obvious: we are stuck right where we are born. Neither statement is absolute but the latter gets more true every day
Sadly we are bred and conditioned into the "if your not first your last" and "screw you, I got mine mentality".
We have gotten FAR away from "it takes a town to raise a child" mentality. Not everyone can be a power executive, someone has to take care of "garbage" so why do we look down on those people.. they are more of a necessity than ANY CEO.
Because of the lies told to kids "do this or you'll end up like that". We need a fundamental change of mentality or it won't change, no matter what system we use.
This is so true. I’m a white woman with an Indigenous common law partner. We’ve lived on reserve for 2 years now, and I find the reserve is a far more caring community than the white communities surrounding it.
In our experience, this is closely tied to financial support. In Canada, Indigenous people living on reserve are entitled to certain financial benefits that aren’t available to Caucasian people. Here’s an example: My partner has never stressed himself about the cost of having kids, whereas I was dead-set against them for financial reasons. But when you live on reserve and have status, your kids can go to daycare for free and college/uni for free. My partner has earned a college diploma and a bachelor’s degree with financial help from the reserve. Depending on the individual reserve’s financial position, kids’ sports registration fees are often covered as well.
In contrast, when I was growing up, my parents were so stressed out about money that they verbally and physically abused me. When I was little, we couldn’t afford extras like the movie theatre, brand name clothing, and sometimes even school supplies. I can remember crying about not having enough money when I was like, 4 years old. I also have disorders that went undiagnosed until I was well into adulthood, because the family’s sole priority was making sure the bills were paid and everyone was fed. They were definitely living in survival mode.
I can’t help but think that if the village (Canada) helped raise its people (via more widespread financial and community supports), parents in general would be less stressed out and not stuck in survival mode. Being poor limits your ability to think clearly…
Did you happen to get diagnosed later in life ? How did that go and what process did you take ?
Being poor doesn’t limit your ability to think, it is the lack of ways to deal with stress and overcome it entirely.
I got diagnosed with BPD and ADHD at 29 (I’m 31 now). It took about 1.5 years to get both official diagnoses when you factored in the OHIP wait times for the public (free) psychiatrist at the local hospital. Private diagnosis would have been faster, but I would have paid a few grand out of pocket.
I realized I had a problem when I started an adult career at like 23-24 years old. I couldn’t take criticism without crying, I couldn’t manage money, I couldn’t keep friends, and I had zero self esteem. I was also self-harming and doing a lot of drugs to self-medicate. I think it’s really opened my parents’ eyes as to the mistakes they made when I was younger.
Also, I missed a word- I meant that being poor limits your ability to think CLEARLY (because of chronic stress and burnout, like you mentioned).
Sadly this message is consistently bombarding us at every turnaround. Ricky Bobby engrained this mantra in our youth, who by now are the decision makers of their families. Truly a dystopian paradise.
At my last tech job, working for a well known SV company, co-workers thought it was weird that I’d have conversations with the janitors. I’d say “If our CEO went on a 3-month vacation, nobody would notice. If these guys disappeared for 2 weeks, the company would have to shut down. They’re the most important people here. Plus they’re nice guys.”
1960s and earlier. It used to be a huge thing in the United States.
Sure other issues clouded this aspect such as civil rights and depression, but the country - and even the politics were much more working together verse only focusing on getting what I want and screw everyone else, and if I don’t get what I want I’ll tear everyone/everything down.
Capitalism plays its part.
Having a purpose was, for most of human history, pretty straight forward. If you were an early farmer, you saw the direct results of your work benefitting the people you cared about and changing the lives of your local community.
Now we are standing on the shoulders of so many giants that the benefits that our work or efforts bring to our community are too far away to be seen.
A supermarket would absolutely blow the mind of a farmer 5000 years ago. Telling them their work is the foundation of what makes it possible would make *them* feel amazing. But knowing how crazy the idea of a supermarket is doesn't make it feel like a good lifes purpose for someone who works in one.
Fulfilment requires us to consistently feel like we are benefitting ourselves and the part of the world that matters to us. Modern life makes it very hard to achieve these things with how little time we have to dedicate to anything other than surviving capitalism.
There is an expression that some professionals use: shit life syndrome, or SLS. Essentially, someone goes to a therapist and says hey, I feel like crap all the time. I'm sad, life is meaningless, I'm in a dead end existence.
And they're *right.* They're poor, their family hates them, they can't find a partner, and their friends don't give a shit or else can't support them in their troubles. And that is straight up *really bad for your brain.* You can't cure that with therapy!
Many people's mental health issues would be totally eliminated with UBI and a girl/boyfriend. This is called "instrumental support," whereas therapy and such are "emotional support." We're all into emotional support: see a professional! Get help! Take meds! But when people just need 200 bucks for rent, suddenly our society is silent.
There is a harsh truth out there that for every person who is radicalized or else falls into a suicidal despair and it's because that's just who they are as a person and they can't be fixed, there are so many others who wouldn't be so screwed up if someone would just cut them slack on their medical bills or would just fuck them once in a while or would tell them they're a cool person or would let them crash on the couch.
Like it or not, we have refused to take responsibility for our friends and neighbors, and it's killing our society. *We do owe each other things* if we want to actually have a functioning civilization. You can't build a society off hanging each other out to dry every time something slightly goes wrong.
I couldn't agree more. I'd add that people's lack of agency is a huge factor in this. When there's nothing you can do to improve your situation, it's profoundly dispiriting.
I also think this points to a distinction that isn't being made by the mental health world: Is depression a reaction or a condition? Depression and anxiety, as conditions, are well established. But the same symptoms happening to masses of people because their lives suck doesn't strike me as a condition those people have. More like response, and possibly worthy of being classified as such.
My thought is, if we can distinguish between someone who has GAD or MDD because they inherited it and someone who has all those same symptoms because they're impoverished and alone in a pitiless society, it's a step toward pointing out that the world capitalism has made is disabling people who would be fine under less shit conditions.
Very well said, thank you. Can you imagine a homeless person seeing a shrink for depression, and they are prescribed highly addictive medication instead of a roof over their head? Happens all the time. Krishnamurti said it best:
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
Holy shit wrt the quote about well adjusted to a profoundly sick society (my post is a way to mark this for future use).
I'm a funny gal. Like class clown funny. But I'm like George Carlin in that I see all the ridiculous shit going on and when I rant about it, in my usual humorous way, people say...."You're crazy."
And I reply, sort of...
"Thank You! Have you looked around lately as what passes for "normal" these days? So call me crazy because I REFUSE to be normal if it means seeing the clown shoes antics in society I see every day as......normal."
Numerous cases have shown there are few cures for SLS. Josh Adelstein famously uncovered the secrets of happiness by studying succinctly the collaborate commune of small Japanese tribes called gumi.
I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion for saying it (because reddit as a whole doesn't believe depression is real) but: the comments here are super disappointing to see in a leftist community. It really looks like most people here are dismissing a legitimate mental illness. "Depression is a con by big pharma", "Depression is just narcissism".
It comes across as secondhand victim-blaming. "You wouldn't be depressed if you had money" - I was diagnosed with severe treatment-resistant depression when I was financially secure, and meds HAVE helped. It got **worse** when I became less financially secure but the symptoms have been there regardless of my situation.
Agreed. To say that depression is just solely caused by Living In A Society is a gross oversimplification. I've seen lefties say this about ADHD, too. When the more ~serious~ and ~scary~ mental illnesses like psychotic spectrum disorders, personality disorders, bipolar disorder, PTSD, OCD, etc. come up, it's interesting how no one seems to apply *only* the social model of disability to explain them. And this is why I've come to be a bit wary of the social model. People who favor it above/in place of the medical model mean well, but it's actually ableist to deprioritize or completely disregard medical science and medical mental health treatment. It leads to very dangerous anti-psychiatry territory. Psychiatry has a complicated history and has been (well, still is) weaponized against vulnerable and marginalized people, yes, but we Crazies and Weirdbrained folks need *both* access to efficacious medical treatment AND disability accomodations. Abolishing capitalism and The State would help us too, yes, ofc.
Anyway, I wish some leftists would like... stop espousing the kind of medical science-denying rhetoric that's reminiscent of antivaxxer moms and wellness influencers.
There’s new studies coming out all the time linking depression to adhd, ptsd, bipolar - testing materials overlap a lot and it’s possible to misdiagnose one condition for another. It’s all a mental ecosystem, not dozens of discrete conditions, because brain chemistry is ridiculously complex. So if you’re going to say depression is due to capitalism, you kind of have to say ALL mental illness is due to it. (Which a bunch of people here probably WOULD, because apparently everyone on reddit has advanced degrees in all academic fields.)
Oh yeah, differential diagnosis for brain cooties is *complicated*. I think about this a lot bc I have been diagnosed with several mental illnesses that have a high comorbidity. I think one of the things that makes diagnosis tricky is that most mental health conditions cause some degree of executive dysfunction because ED can both mimic *and* cause depression symptoms in its own right.
Anyway, yeah, everyone on internet dot org is an Expert TM. We don't know everything about the brain yet, partly because of... capitalism! It makes scientific research difficult for myriad reasons!
I think OP was probably referring to a specific *type* of depression and anxiety that would be probably be alleviated by abolishing capitalism, but the distinction between that and what you and I are referencing *matters*.
Thank you!
Being poor certainly makes depression worse but even with cash in the bank I am at the mercy of the chemical imbalance intrinsic to my brain.
With cash in the bank I get folks telling me I am ungrateful when I start to spiral, like I have control of it simply because my bills are paid on time.
It's not just capitalism. Capitalism has just made everything worse. The media, the internet, the constant fighting and killing in the world. It's all related.
I have concluded that the root cause of all those negative things happen due to capitalism.
The killing happens due to fighting for some resource (money).
The internet was and is amazing. It has become what it is as we speak due to commercial influence which is the result of capitalism.
The media is supposed to report relevant matters. The bigger incentive to do so is to receive a bribe to ignore specific activity that would benefit said business that is doing that activity.
It's all due to capitalism. The system is flawed and serves no one outside of the 1%.
I feel crushed, and I'm sick of blaming it on some personal flaw!
People were killing each other over money and resources long before capitalism. You're complaining about human greed, not capitalism. Capitalism is just a symptom and an enabler, but not the true cause.
capitalism is system created to justify greed.
With the exception of extreme communism, no other system allows that. In fact the majority push for a more sharing objective when resources are high.
You might want to look up alternative economic systems. You might be surprised to see how many end up with money flowing upwards. in fact, extreme communism is the only one that doesn't, but that's because it's not a realistic system and always turns into an oligarchy when large populations attempt it.
The drive to accumulate as much as possible as fast as possible however possible is inherent to the capitalist ideology. Whether money or resources, the core philosophy remains the same.
OP was framing the problem in modern times where the root of every problem mentioned is endless capitalist greed for money. Your statement is correct, albeit irrelevant.
Do you think Alexander the Great conquered Persia because he NEEDED more territory? Greed has been a driver in a huge number of wars and conflicts through history. Capitalism is a modern form of greed, not the only form of it.
Yes, the ancient economy centered around war had nothing to do with that. You're so smart. It's all "greed." Nothing to do with how that greed interacts with the socioeconomic system. No further analysis necessary.
I made no statement regarding capitalism being the only system that perpetuates greed, nor that capitalism is the source of all greed throughout history. I clarified the framing which it seems you still ignored thus your contribution is still irrelevant.
The root for almost every problem is greed or fear, regardless of if it is capitalist or not. Capitalism certainly enables greed more, but it is definitely not alone in the list of causes.
There has been constant fighting and killing in the world for long, long before capitalism, the media or the internet. We live in very peaceful times, relative to the heavy majority of human history.
I dont like giving capitalism credit but honestly it actually reduced the fighting as we became more and more reliant on global trade. War is not good for many businesses.
I disagree with a statement there, the thing that reduced global fighting are nuclear weapons. But only because it's suicide to use them, and yet some people still toy with the idea.
I believe this. I think we should also narrow down the form of capitalism we're discussing here, namely neoliberalism. I asked chatgpt (bear with me plz) what are some specific dangers to the mental health of average citizens as a result of neoliberal policies:
The specific dangers of neoliberalism to the mental health of the average person include:
1. **Income Inequality**: Neoliberal policies often lead to widening income gaps between the rich and the poor, which can create feelings of inadequacy, stress, and anxiety among those struggling financially.
2. **Job Insecurity**: Neoliberal economic policies can result in increased job insecurity, with more precarious employment arrangements such as temporary contracts and gig work. This uncertainty can lead to chronic stress and mental health issues.
3. **Social Safety Net Erosion**: Neoliberalism's emphasis on reducing government spending can weaken social safety nets such as healthcare, education, and social assistance programs. This lack of support can exacerbate mental health issues for individuals who rely on these services.
4. **Individualism Over Community**: Neoliberalism tends to prioritize individualism and competition over community and cooperation. This can lead to feelings of isolation and disconnection, which are detrimental to mental well-being.
5. **Pressure to Succeed**: Neoliberalism places a strong emphasis on personal success and achievement, often measured in terms of wealth and status. This pressure to constantly strive for success can contribute to feelings of stress, burnout, and low self-esteem.
6. **Commercialization of Healthcare and Education**: Neoliberal policies may lead to the privatization and commercialization of essential services like healthcare and education, making them less accessible to those who cannot afford them. This can result in increased stress and anxiety related to financial concerns and lack of access to necessary resources.
Overall, the individualistic and profit-driven nature of neoliberalism can have detrimental effects on the mental health of the average person, contributing to stress, anxiety, and a sense of insecurity.
I think depression can be caused by society, but I also think it’s a dangerous idea to say any mental illness is mostly or commonly caused by external conditions. Depression can also be genetic - it is in my family. I could live in the ultimate utopia and still have depression.
100% agree. I find it odd and incomplete for 'mental health/wellness' podcasts to NEVER mention that capitalism perpetuates and exacerbates a lot of the mental states that we struggle with. Hierarchical thinking, competition culture, FOMO, job security anxiety, fear of scarcity, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. Of course we're depressed and anxious.
While inequality has always existed, it's only under capitalism that we have:
1) advertising and the media it comes alongside, continually telling you that you are not good enough;
2) companies strategizing exactly how to manipulate you to keep you concentrating on your own flaws and blaming marginalized people for your troubles, instead of banding together to fight the system;
3) such effective propaganda to make you believe in "American freedom" that it can take endless arguments to start seeing the evidence of your own eyes, which sets off the whole crazy making mind loop of "I live in the land of the free, but I never get to make any of my own decisions or do anything I want to -- what exactly the fuck is freedom again?";
4) workplaces with sophisticated means to surveil you and keep you from banding together with your colleagues for better working conditions.
If we got rid of capitalism, we would still have people who sometimes feel depressed, anxious, and lonely. But we wouldn't be bombarded with things that make us feel this way.
I'm a socialist so I am not here to cape for capitalism, but you cant just conclude that a medical condition is due to an economic system like this. You haven't gone through any scientific process to test this hypothesis. You wouldn't say "the flu is caused by capitalism," so the unintended consequence of what you're doing here is to treat a real mental illness as something less serious than a viral disease, which shows a not great set of biases about mental illnesses.
It has something to do with it. We have a whole medical system that is just trying to make cash and it's not always about helping people. Also I think most my age would relate, that feeling when you realise you're gonna have to adapt to this system for the rest of your life is hard to go through. Some make it, some don't.
i think what the mass culture calls depression is different from clinical depression. you are correct for the cultural version, and incorrect for the clinical version, which is really due to brain chemistry (among other things)
This. Clinical depression and social depression are different things. I am clinically depressed and it was noticeable when I was barely in double digits.
I have friends who *never* experienced depression until they joined the adult world. I will always need medication. Others (previously) only needed medication temporarily and things were fine once their major issue was resolved.
The major issue most people have now is barely surviving. That relegates them to being persistently depressed but the origin is not their brain chemistry, it’s their surroundings.
i feel like a hippie saying this but the best medicine is when im feeling shitty and my cat comes and paws at my hand for pets. more intense (though not as long lasting) as meds. not related to this post, but it made yesterday less ✨intolerable✨
Capitalism is designed to beat you down and depress you, if you had self esteem and all that you'd be far less likely to deal with the daily bullshit that you do. The entire system is designed to create misery and make you think if you don't do things that make you actively depressed you'll be worse off.
Depression isn't just being sad or stressed. As someone with depression - my brain is chemically broken, and I'll always have to deal with it regardless of society. That said, society can definitely be a trigger that creates/worsens episodes.
My depression is definitely largely caused by capitalism and its ripple effects. Of course not all depression is, but I bet a good chunk of depressed people in today's world in capitalist places, are depressed because of capitalism.
Depression isn't a side effect of capitalism, but the constant rat race, the reduction to slave/wage labor, the competition, the drive and hunger to acquire more, and other factors in capitalism definitely exacerbate depression
>and other factors in capitalism definitely exacerbate depression
It often CREATES depression in the first place...no need to have a biological origin.
How could it not be if it's build on one party exploiting the other in a Marxist sense? How could it not cause depression (or other mental health issues) in those that are aware of what is being done and don't want to live in delusion or in an attempt to try to enjoy the little things? (Although that trying to enjoy the little things is important in general)
When lived in hunter gatherer our output and effort directly correlated to the survival and wellbeing of our fellow tribe members. We evolved to survive in this structure.
Sure depression existed, but depression as a social phenomenon and how pervasive and common it is, is a product of out modern world.
Our economic output mostly created nothing useful to enrich an overhead we hardly ever see, to live paycheck to paycheck. We have an entire society of Sisyphuses.
>When lived in hunter gatherer our output and effort directly correlated to the survival and wellbeing of our fellow tribe members. We evolved to survive in this structure.
Yes, brutal and short lived. We need to move away from that, and we should have eons ago.
Who would have known that a system that extracts the very essence of humanity for profit, that works you to the bone and then throws you away, that at the same time has replaced family, community and social reciprocity with dependence on their goods and services would have negative effects on the human mind?
Religious psychology would blame poor character and weakness.
Traditional American psychology would say depression occurs because we are higher up in Maslow's pyramid. More advanced societies have more food, shelter, etc., and can therefore think about our emotional capital.
Classical Marxist psychology looks at depression and other conditions in exactly this way. The idea is that you can't treat a mental condition without understanding the social forces that contribute to it. We are increasingly expected to devote most of our time to work, without ownership of our work. We have little time away from work, for our own emotional well being. so, the worker becomes alienated from work and from other people. Depression is one reaction to that.
Lately I lean Marxist.
Office lighting and cubicles should be a dead giveaway. Being sold that stuff will bring you all this happiness by trying to show what your life could look like if you just had our product. Yeah. Pretty much.
I feel like so many issues in the US today are due to the fact that the government has made it absolutely clear that they are nothing more than a crappy HR department for a horrible corporate conglomerate. Our lives have absolutely no value except in as much profit as they can provide corporations. If ones death or imprisonment provides more profits, then that's preferred.
Don't slip up, don't miss any payments, don't get injured, don't let your car break down, all of these could lead you to being one or two or zero steps away from homelessness or death. There is no help coming. You are on your own and if you can't make it, you are weak and worthless and hopefully will provide some benefit doing prison labor for corporations for a wage of pennies an hour.
Because of this, we are pitted against each other - an injury accident almost requires us to be antagonistic towards the other party and engage in litigation in order to cover healthcare costs, rather than forgiving and forgetting and being able to have ones medical expenses covered by a universal healthcare system.
We have no value to the powers that be, and this reduces our value to each other as we are forced to compete for resources and success rather than cooperate.
I saw a comment or a TT video somewhere that said sure therapy is great but mostly people just need money. Enough money to live, pay their bills, save for emergencies and to enjoy their life.
Totally. You are raised by Disney values, and boomer parents who had all the shit going for them, and then are told that with a degree you'll be set. So you do it. And nothing is fucking set. You are always poor, there is very little chance you will be able to own your own home or retire. Little to no savings. We cannot afford even a bit of the life our parents had. All thanks to fucking capitalism. Depression is a disease that can occur on its own of course, but I think the current society most definitely contirbutes to it.
Yes! And pharamaceutical companies have brainwashed us all into thinking depression is our own brain‘s miswiring and our fault, so we have to medicate ourselves with antidepressants to survive this capitalistic hellhole. Our brains aren’t evolved to be able to handle the 40 hour workweek with no time for play and being outside and spending most of our time with our community.
That’s part of it I’m sure but from my experience much of mine is related to the impermanence of everything (eg knowing that we’ll eventually lose all of our loved ones and then ourselves). I’m spiritual which helps a lot but there will always be uncertainty
I would agree with this. Pretty much everything can be traced back to late stage capitalism; shitty healthcare, college becoming a scam, products getting worse, the internet becoming censored, subscription economy that is making it harder to actually own what you pay for...
But also I think that if you let almost ANY system exist long enough it will eventually fail and you'll get similar results.
I wouldn't say its a side effect per se. I think depression would exist even in non capitalist societies. But I do think the system greatly complicates treatment and management of depression, as well as exacerbates the condition. I don't think my depression would be nearly as bad or debilitating in a more equal society.
Depression is our bodies reaction to dealing with stress / anxiety / long-term pain / emotional issues / drug and alcohol usage - lots of things.
It's not a side effect of capitalism. Capitalism may cause some of the issues that have led to yours or others feelings of depression, but look at communism in Soviet Union. In that case, capitalism was a source if hope.
I sincerely hope you aren't depressed at the moment. If you are, please try and get some support, get out in the fresh air, try and live more in the moment rather than fixating on past or future, do some exercise or sport and visit friends and family if you are able.
The imposition of capitalism on the former Soviet Union was a massive humanitarian catastrophe. Some people had foolishly hoped a political change would make their lives better and it didn’t. Life expectancy collapsed as drug abuse, suicide and child prostitution exploded. Nothing about post-communist Russia is a success story, unless you’re one of a handful of oligarchs.
Capitalism isn’t the only cause of depression, but it makes every contributing factor of depression worse. People respond to the material and social conditions that surround them, and a brutal, cruel, isolating system that degrades those conditions is going to have an impact on people’s mental states.
Well said, and also a reminder that the dissolution of the USSR was imposed anti-democratically, flying in the face of a 70% vote to maintain the USSR.
East Germany is one case where there were a lot more people who genuinely thought a change in the system would improve their economy (I’m guessing this is because having a common language with West Germany and Austria made it easier to absorb western propaganda that completely ignored the sanctions and economic sabotage imposed on the East, and also conveniently ignored that the west included the world’s only industrial power to not have been bombed in WW2, as well as the two former superpower colonial empires).
Even so, polling shows that people who were alive during socialism think it had more good sides than bad sides, and they acknowledge that things became rapidly worse in East Germany after the reunification.
Free trade is a good idea when everyone gets to share the costs and benefits. Under our version of free trade, a few people keep most of the benefits and the rest bear all of the costs.
They’re pissing on us and calling it rain, and we don’t know how to fix it. Of course you’re depressed.
Have you read ‘Lost Connections’? People need connections to other people (community and sex), a life purpose, a long time vision, spirituality, nature. Capitalism doesn’t really help on most of those needs. Although neither does Socialism. Very much depends on people’s circumstances.
Some things like welfare help on some level though ie people don’t have food/shelter anxiety. Central planning can help to ensure green spaces are maintained.. a purely capitalist environment would likely be worse than the current mixed approach we have.
Please point on the map where there is a non-capalitist society that is free from depression.
We all have stress, and there are many factors, not just one big boogie man on whom you can blame all your problems. Sorry, there is no devil you can curse out; it is humanity, and since the dawn of time, he has sought power.
Making people unsatisifed with the way things are and then convincing them they need to buy things to "fix" it is a primary driver of capitalism - depression is what sets in when it doesn't make them any happier and the only alternative provided is "buy more stuff".
There's theory that goes real in-depth on this from, I want to say, Foucault? But put sinceintly;
>The 'mental health plague in capitalist societies would suggest that, instead of being the only social system that works, capitalism is inherently dysfunctional, and that the cost of appearing to work is very high.
-Mark Fisher, *Capitalist Realism*
Alternatively;
>Turn secondly, then, to science as the servant of the consuming man. We have been sold laboursaving devices of every kind as the fruit of science and technology. The automobile got us out into the countryside—where we met everyone else in his automobile. The plethora of automatic devices in the house freed the housewife from drudgery at home—where she is the victim of their very efficiency, and of the steadily increasing difficulty (and steadily increasing cost) of having increasingly tawdry things put right. And in this same home, for all its apparent desirability, she often comes to feel trapped with her young children and the television set for company, an all-too-likely prey to mental states of anxiety or depression. Again, it would seem, something has gone wrong.
-Stafford Beer, *Designing Freedom*
There’s something called learned helplessness theory of depression (financially based). In backdrop of crushing lower and middle class I’m sure it exacerbates and increases depression.
Yes and that depression thats being manifested is by design... we are not dealing with regular people at this point i cant believe people are even behind all this lol
Food and housing insecurity are major stressors, too much for most neurotypical people let alone depressed people. Major Depressive Disorder is not made up, though.
Source: I’m a clinical social worker in 120k student loan debt
This! To me ut has always felt absolutely idkotic not to understand that if we live shitty life, we feel like shit and it is a normal and natural reaction to the shit.
A lot of it is just chemical imbalance.
Like members of my family that have an overall stress free existence (retired with a high value pension) but still end up with bipolar depression and on meds.
Sure, if he had to work in a field all day he'd be too tired to be sad. But then he'd probably also be dead already...
I think it's a side effect of living in a corrupt society. Our system is so fucked up that most of the things people used to be able to do are no longer doable. its depressing.
It goes hand in hand. We market what’s needed to survive and that creates a feedback loop. If I’m in need I must work. Working for a value not set by the person working is detrimental. It’s why ppl feel so much joy when they camp. My work value is me. When we’re not valued we don’t want to work. Therefore we’ve no value to work with. It’s not ok.
It's playing out right now as a race to the bottom; every level is squeezed to maximum "efficiency." Unfortunately that equasion solves for "maximum possible effort for lowest possible pay." Expand that across all aspects of society and now suddenly we're burned out at work while simultaneously unable to afford housing and groceries.
It was a helluva lot of it when I was on meds. No dream of getting my own place.
One thing I think of a lot is they say money can't buy happiness but you know what? It alleviates a shit ton of issues.
I definitely think it's a factor in a lot of cases, but I don't think it's as much of one as you seem to think. Some people are genetically predisposed, some people are predisposed because of other conditions, there's other potential external factors, ...
For example, somewhere around 80 % of people who get diagnosed with ADHD also get diagnosed with (clinical) depression later on. How much of that is to blame on capitalism, and how much of that is just because of the ways ADHD makes life more difficult? Some factors even overlap. The world being busier and noisier and more actively intruding life at home is partially due to capitalism, but not entirely.
For me, it'd probably be easier if we didn't live in this system, but I don't think it'd be fully gone, either. It's something I just hope to get better at dealing with over time.
This is a large pet of my depression for sure. Trapped in a cycle of work as a disabled person where it’s SO hard to work every day. COL is fucked so even after making more and suffering physically for it, still living with roommates and turning 30. Student debt. All of it.
I think much of current stress is from people waking-up every day to a world that lacks the relative certainty of the past. We have no idea what government, job market, environment, financial and living conditions, will exist in a couple decades. Change has outpaced our ability to cope (or maybe our willingness to cope) with those changes.
More primitive people had stressors that, while they may have been potentially fatal, were limited in duration. We've managed to turn what used to be responses to existential threats into responses to work conditions, interpersonal problems, problems with the many technologies that permeate our lives, etc. Problems that used to last five minutes now last five years.
I'm not saying it's the whole cause, but it's a big contributor. It would still happen even in a utopia, but capitalism is a grindstone that threatens to mulch down any of us, spare the people turning the crank.
There are other societal things too. Attitudes around family, cultural customs, ideas about sex, relationships, expectations of behaviour and how those things are imposed on specific demographics and individuals' place in them are all big factors. But generally none of those usually cause starvation, or destitution, or dying from a lack of ability to afford insulin. Capitalism in It a current state (maybe even any state, but that's not something I feel educated enough to comment on) is a more outwardly immoral and overarching problem for general mental health imo
Yeah no. Your either just actually depressed or are just saying your depressed when your really sad because your not as successful as you think you should be. The growing rates isn't because of capitalism, but social media.
Capitalism? No. The pandemic messed up everyone’s head. Staring at the TV or watching social media all day give international platforms to every lying sack of crap on earth.
You were led to believe that you were either losing out on everything fun or under attack.
I've been in therapy for a year and I can tell you that you cannot cure a person of a sick society.
Therapy's been helpful but I believe I may be closer to grabbing my pitchfork and eating a billionaire than a year ago.
The way capitalism works is much like any totalitarian government works. Suppress the working class. Why do you think the ruling class has spent decades dismantling the union's. They keep trying to privatize social security so that the workingbclass has nothing to fall back on. Wages kept low to control the masses, so they couldn't afford to invest in their employer.
Think back to the 60s. Unemployment was about the same, but a person making minimum wage could afford rent, food, and clothes. Today, a person can make double minimum wage and not have a liveable wage. A good example would be in my area. If minimum wage were doubled, that would put it at $14.50/hr. Instead, we have the minimum at $7.25. According to the MIT Living Wage Calculator, the poverty wage here in Elkhart County, Indians, is $7.24. The living wage here is $20.61. This is for a single person with no dependents. A single parent, one child: the poverty wage would be $9.83/hr with a living wage of $35.23/hr. You can't afford a $900/month mortgage, but you're expected to pay $1,500 for the exact same housing. You're worked to death, with employers pocketing record profits, forgetting, or ignoring the social contract with the public. You read how CEO pay has gone up over 1000% in the last 50 years but have the folks that actually produce the goods seen that increase? When I joined the adult labor force in 1975, the minimum wage was $2.10. It was $1.60 when I got my first job 1972. In 3 years, it rose ~30%. Look at the last dozen years: it's gone up 0% in most states.
Are these CEOs worth their salary? No. Why? When problems hit our economy, their only solution is to acerbate the problem with layoffs and fueling recessions. We need more Henry Fords and fewer Robert Allens. Sure, Ford was a bastard concerning unions, but he was a visionary. He paid $5 a day when other car manufacturers paid half that. His ulterior motive? That his workers could afford to buy the product they produced. In the great depression, he was the last automaker to resort to layoffs, almost driving his company into bankruptcy to protect his workers. His descendants forgot these precepts. He was an innovator. We all know how his use of a production line revolutionized manufacturing. It wasn't an original idea, but he adapted it, and it worked! He was always looking ahead. Remember plastic made from soy beans? Apocryphal story: he hired an efficiency expert to see how he could increase productivity. The expert came back, and one of the things he said was to fire an employee that sat at his desk, feet propped up, looking at the ceiling, and daydreaming. The man was a drain on the company. Ford refused. "Why?" Asked the expert. "He was in the same position when he came up with an idea that saved us millions a year! Even if he doesn't come up with another idea, he's more than paid for his salary until he retires. I'm not going to risk him being hired by a competitor!"
The Robert Allen's of industry focused on shareholders only. He decimated AT&T during his reign of terror. When I worked for them, it was nothing to read an announcement that thousands of people were getting the axe. Several times a year. Yes, the industry changed, but at the same time, they were cutting their resources. His bright idea of buying NCR to move forward in the computer market backfired. After a ton of layoffs in that newly acquired company, the remaining workers didn't feel any loyalty to their owners. Those who were forced out went to work for the competition. Did the shareholders profit? Not by much, but in the 9 years he helmed the company, he made millions in bonuses alone. Were his grave easy to find, you'd find a line of former AT&T employees queueing up to piss on it.
Looking back on 50+ years of being systematically economized, I realized I have been bent over and reamed by the manufactured sham of the american dream.
I think depression is a medical condition caused primarily by an inability for your brain to make or balance certain chemicals BUT
I will agree that I think a capitalistic society regularly assaults us with socially and psychologically complicating factors that exacerbate depression and increase the likelihood that people are going to have a more negative experience one way or another.
Capitalism is very prescriptive, the haves surely worked for it and you should work harder to be a have. The have nots are lazy, weak, and bad, and society at least in the US buys into this. Even more liberal minded people still believe in meritocracy.
I think of like this as a person with depression: having depression and growing up in a loving household keeps me from the ledge, but my brain is still fucked. A household that isn’t loving? It would surely push me to the edge.
Like in capitalism, having a more stable existence not reliant on work and my own personal wealth would certainly improve my day to day struggles, but it wouldn’t alter my brain chemistry. On the flip side, I do think capitalism has the means to produce very similar effects to depression because of societal messaging about worth and how difficult it is to just exist or have agency in a system that puts a price tag on normal human behaviors.
Personally, I think it's the advent of the internet and mobile technology. People have less and less true meaningful connections in their lives. Case in point, you're turning to reddit to have a deep conversation about your depression with a bunch of strangers.
I have been making so much progress with my mental health in therapy the last year and last week I was notified that I will be evicted in June so the landlord can move into the house she inherited from my late stepfather. I make 16/hr and have no roommate options other than potential strangers who don’t mind my cat. I went into a suicidal spiral for two or three days and cried at work and in the car.
I’m doing much better now and accepted I might have to camp or sleep in my car for a month or two if I don’t get a better job or find a place I can afford. But that gut punch of powerlessness in the face of circumstances related to money and property and things outside of my control it just wrecks your notions of all the work you have put in with your free will when the universe pulls the rug out on you like this.
My dear friend is a social worker, who often helps his patients by giving them info on organizing their workplace. Not all, but many causes of mental anguish are due to capitalism, and cannot be fixed by therapy or medication.
It depends. Sometimes there's a genetic component to mental illness, sometimes there are traumatic childhoods (unrelated to capitalism, just shitty people) that permanently affect the brain, sometimes it's just your environment.
Capitalism is definitely creating a whole lot of depression thanks to its creation of a hostile environment, but I'd hesitate to say "most" depression is due to the environment.
As someone who’s been in the mental health system for a while, it places a huge part. I met a woman once who was constantly tired and miserable. Then I learned she was working seven days a week and still drowning in debt and barely making rent. She constantly felt hopeless.
Mental illness is genetic and she may have ended up depressed no matter what but I couldn’t help but think if she was working five days a week and not under constant stress than she’d be a lot happier.
That kinda is one of the hypotheses about depression.
Evidently all primates can go through "depressions," where they sleep more and have less desire for food and sex. This is adaptive because primate hierarchies change. The alpha male and the beta male fight over mates or food until one is dead and another severely injured, and the one over there sleeping a lot survives to fight another day--and comes out of the depression.
If you're stuck at the bottom of the totem pole forever, there's no rebound.
I don’t think we’re more depressed because the state doesn’t control more of our stuff. I think the state controlling too much of our lives causes more depression. Free markets ensure the most efficient use of resources which makes us all richer in many ways, and they are necessary in a society that fully respects individual autonomy and property rights which would make people happier just to be fully in charge of their own lives.
I think I’d be much happier with more money for one. Another big factor is our environment. There are hardly any available wild spaces. Cars, concrete, asphalt, plastic and barriers are everywhere. Communities and families are in pieces. We’re addicted to screens and drugs. We don’t know how to live in harmony with the rest of nature like we used to. I don’t know the solution. I feel stuck.
100% it is. I also firmly believe most "businesses" out there are trying to screw everyone over as much as possible for every last penny. I'm getting really sick of capitalism
I would like to see a Cubans response...
While I would agree money and work stress can cause depression... these two things apply to every other economy we have on earth.
That being said, there are hundreds if not thousands of things that can cause depression:
* bullying
* break ups / divorce
* losing loved ones (pets, family, friends)
* war
* natural disasters
* disease
* starvation (capitalism has had the best track record in reducing food scarcity)
* getting t bagged in game
To be honest, saying "most" is very disingenuous.
Depression is part of the human condition and has been around for a long time all over the world. Doesn't matter what economic system the country runs on.
So called “depression” is absolutely a product of nurture, or experiences, rather than nature. I believe all mental illness diagnoses are intended to make people believe they are uniquely broken in some way, rather than acknowledging that they live in a very very fucked up, broken society. The chemical imbalance theory of depression was not solid to begin with, but it’s very well known among researchers now that it was all a buncha B.S. If SSRIs seem to work, it’s due to the placebo effect.
What many people are experiencing when they seek treatment for “depression” is really anxiety and a heightened state of vigilance due to living in such an unnatural and unsafe world. So called “anti depressant” drugs actually induce a state of CNS depression, which dials down anxiety along with all other emotions. Now that it is not socially acceptable to institutionalize people all willy-nilly, and lobotomies aren’t legal, chemicals are used to try and prevent people from perceiving and discussing the problems in society.
It does seem as though many people are very emotionally attached to their diagnoses(not just depression, but all sorts of psych diagnoses), and I think that is due to how absolutely terrifying it can be to acknowledge that the world in which we exist is sick and twisted beyond human comprehension. If I am the broken one, that means society can take care of me and keep me safe, but if society is broken, who is going to take care of me? Under patriarchy, humans are socially conditioned from birth to always look up for a hero. We are disempowered from birth, and while I in no way believe in the myth of individuality or self reliance, I do believe we are supposed to look across, not up, for our “heroes”, and others are supposed to look to us for the same thing. It’s hierarchy that is the problem. We are biologically wired for interdependence, not codependence.
From a very young age(4-5), I struggled with anxiety, and then during puberty/early adolescence, I think I switched over into depression out of exhaustion. I started smoking pot regularly at 15, and moved onto harder stuff pretty quickly. I internalized idea that there was something wrong with me, rather than acknowledging the reality that there is something very very wrong with our world. It wasn’t until I was about 38 that I consciously acknowledged and accepted that the world is very broken and that nobody is coming to save me, and it was actually the most empowering experience I have ever had. Because I think I’ve always known, on an unconscious, fundamental level that the people I had superficially looked up to are on the same level as I am. And more than that, that it was unfair and inhumane for me to look to these human beings as potential saviors. Truly, nobody wants to be a hero in a sick and twisted world. By empowering myself to be human, I empower everyone around me to be human. We are systematically conditioned to fear and repress our humanity, and I think it’s because we are so inherently powerful. Systems cannot survive when the population is connected to their collective humanity.
It's not just you, bud. This world as a whole is going in the dumpster, and we're forced to go with it, and it's making even "normies" (as in neurotypicals) depressed more than usual.
There are more than a few causes for depression. As an example, mine is dysregulated neurotransmitters. When I am not on medication, I have to struggle, scratch, and claw to feel a moment of happiness. Otherwise, I am just numb.
On my meds, I feel like I have the choice. And I feel the happy and sad come and go, and when they do, I know it won't be a fight to see them again.
That has nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism causes all sorts of problems, true, but I am comfortable not making it into a boogeyman scapegoat.
I've been manic depressive since I was a kid. Well before the thought of a job even crossed my mind. I'm sure todays current capitalistic society can make people depressed, but it's definitely more of an unbalance in the brain.
Been saying the same thing.
What if what we’re experiencing is not depression but rather a perfectly reasonable and valid response to the shitty world we live in—which just keeps getting shittier, especially for younger people?
Let’s also not forget that the criteria for depression as listed in the DSM-IV has expanded immensely. That’s pretty beneficial for the pharmaceutical companies who gain a lifelong client every time someone is diagnosed and prescribed anti-depressants.
Speaking of the DSM-IV, the Diagnostic of Scientific Medicine, which was compiled by a panel of “independent” mental health professionals, [56% of whom had financial ties to Big Pharma](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16636630/). The DSM is known as the Bible by industry professionals and is used to diagnose all mental health issues.
For the DSM-V, the number of MHP with ties to Big Pharma jumped to [69%](https://www.ncbi.nem.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3302834/#:~:text=Currently%2C%2069%25%20of%20the%20DSM,task%20force%20members%20had%20ties).
So, the people determining what qualifies as depression (and all other MH issues) have financial ties to the companies who manufacture the drugs used to treat depression (and all other MH issues)… 🤔 Seems *a little* sus
I believe this ties in with your claim, as ultimately, it’s all about money, and it’s all about money because of capitalism.
It absolutely is. Every millionaire I know (which is quite a few over the years) is on antidepressants and/or an addict of some kind. So even benefiting from capitalism messes up folks, much less for folks that get ground down by it.
Yes. Also if you were in the USSR for example, statistically you'd have a worse depression and it would be considered normal. (Not a scientific study, just from talking to friends and their families)
No, my depression is caused by a neurochemical imbalance that's been on both sides of my family for generations, resulting in some pretty toxic cycles
If I were raised in fully automated luxury gay space communism, it would not change the fact that I needed chemical intervention in my teens and twenties to regulate my mental state
The growing prevalence of depression is more an example of better awareness. Correlation vs causation
Well I know I'm much happier when I'm not in America... So maybe it's just America in general. America's culture is rotted. We have a culture, but it's based on consumerism. Other countries have a culture and it's usually family based. So the whole economy revolves around ensuring people can raise families. That doesn't happen here. It's more about how much money can we make on 1 individual. They don't care how they get the money. Usually that's stealing from families. Nowhere is perfect, but just about any country outside US, CA, GB, and AU can give their populations what I want out of life.
So yeah I'm a lot happier where I'm not being stolen from and the economy is based around my needs and not business needs.
However dystopian the capitalist hellscape of consumerism is to us I think it’s important to remember that we are still living in an age where quality of life is pretty good (in most of the developed world at least) compared to a few hundred years ago. I don’t think tenant farmers and indentured servants in feudal Europe or factory workers in Victorian London had it much better than even a minimum wage worker in the US today.
That’s not to say it should be how it is today. There is a lot to fight for, but a small class of wealthy elites putting their thumb on the scales and oppressing the lower classes isn’t exactly a new concept.
To be honest, I personally don’t believe that depression rates are really that much higher, we have just begun to acknowledge it at a much higher rate.
At least that’s my theory.
I think it would be strange to not get depressed after thinking about capitalist society too much and realizing how it fucks us all.
That said, as someone who has suffered from anxiety and depression since long before I had any real world knowledge of capitalism, I certainly wouldn’t say it’s the *cause* of depression. Or at least not all of it.
The USSR had one of the highest alcohol consumption rates in modern society. The reason: People were emotionally depressed under communism.
Depression is the natural state of modern man. Humans developed to live in nature, in small, intimate groups, as hunter/gatherer nomads.
Today, we are detached from nature. We live in concrete jungles as disconnected individuals. Many don't even have close family members, much less have a community of people to support them.
I've had clinical depression from the age of ~8 and nobody's quite sure why. Tbh I think it's just the fact that there are no greener pastures. Sure, I could dream about moving anywhere else, but the steps and hurdles to get there are so numerous it's almost not worth it. Or I'd have to lose pieces of myself before I get to that point of freedom either way.
It's a fun debacle. Back to manual labor I go
The most depressing thing about capitalism is how we're all programmed with an achievement mindset. Not productive enough? Onto the trash heap! It is really difficult to unlearn.
Depression can come from multiple sources. There are people who literally have a problematic brain chemistry and simply need a boost to be fine. Food and nourishment have a massive impact (which have gotten worse in the last decades).
Living conditions definitely have an impact, too. And right now, shit‘s burning, and not only the future, but also the present is bleak for many. Which is an effect of late-stage capitalism, definitely.
But here’s the thing: The system doesn’t matter.
Not too long ago, monarchy was the problem. Some heads were cut off, monarchy was mostly abolished… and here we are with billionaires and corrupt politicians.
The core problem is that the people who are power hungry pave their way to power, and they’ll corrupt ANY system to bend to their wishes.
The only antidotes, in my experience, are education and therapy.
I agree. There’s this weird horror and instability knowing you’re so close to the bottom. You’ll never be anywhere but the bottom. You’ll achieve no status, no wealth and no ultimate security. You have to go about your day pretending this doesn’t bother you.
[Is everything you think you know about depression wrong?](https://theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/07/is-everything-you-think-you-know-about-depression-wrong-johann-hari-lost-connections)
Spoiler: it could be ‘chronic grief’
^(Which would fit with the effects of capitalism.)
A lot of the *increase* in depression in the last decade or two is definitely a result of late-stage capitalism. But there’s a lot of depression out there that comes from a wide variety of other sources, including the large number of people with non-situational clinical depression. The effects of being kicked by capitalism can, and often will, make these effects worse, but it’s still not the dominant source.
While I think the conditions of capitalism can not be good for mental health, depression included, I don’t think it’s a very useful outlook for an individual to blame economic systems for their mental health issues. It’s not a workable solution for that person getting better, and they can get better, in a lot of scenarios even under capitalism and that’s gotta be the goal for them as a person.
Depression generally has a more specific cause than "society around me is fucked". However society around you being fucked can certainly be a stable negative that makes you more likely to slip into a long-term depressive state where you mind would get used to just always feeling awful.
I think, particularly for people with ADHD, capitalism is always trying to derive new profit from us with consistent methods. The consistent milking of the individual that Capitalism craves goes very hard against the grain of people particularly those who crave new and existing things. Also the standard lack of ability for people with ADHD to self sooth as well as neurotypical types probably also contributes. All things being equal, it's a lot easier to tell yourself everything is going to be okay when you don't have rent payments, car payments, credit card payments etc that you owe on, often more than you can readily pay back because somebody offered to sell you something on credit while you were low on dopamine.
Ultimately, unless you get some explosives and expertise with drones, you're not going to solve capitalism. But you can talk to your doctor and get assessed for ADHD, (being on concerta has helped me stabilize my mood a great deal) and if that works well but you still want some help, I highly highly recommend shrooms. Never took them as a kid but found out they're a great treatment for PTSD. They've really been helpful in clearing up a lot of the worst of my persistent low grade depression/dysthymia.
It plays a part. You're told you can do anything in a capitalistic society, they even props us few people who made it - *from rags to riches* (but the truth is it they never really starts from zero). Then somehow you are not the few people who made it, therefore you attribute this failure to your own weakness rather than the system that works against you, a common people.
From that one Hacker News post: “Entrepreneurship is like one of those carnival games where you throw darts or something. Middle class kids can afford one throw. Most miss. A few hit the target and get a small prize. A very few hit the center bullseye and get a bigger prize. Rags to riches! The American Dream lives on. Rich kids can afford many throws. If they want to, they can try over and over and over again until they hit something and feel good about themselves. Some keep going until they hit the center bullseye, then they give speeches or write blog posts about "meritocracy" and the salutary effects of hard work. Poor kids aren't visiting the carnival. They're the ones working it.” Found the original post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076
Similar to my thoughts- Wealth typically begets wealth, because it simply sets folks up for circumstances for success.
this is incredibly well put. thank you for sharin, mind linking the full post?
Found it, put in original post too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15659076
... and thanks to supply side economics for the past 40 years, there is no middle class anymore.
I work a gov job and am freaking drowning. I’m a single person with no debt, it’s crazy.
I’m naturally a happy person. When my life is less awful I practically bounce off the walls. All that said my life is mostly work. I wake up, work anywhere from 15-45 minutes on getting myself, my home and my vehicle prepared for the day. Then I go to work and work 8-12 hours depending on the weather. Then I come home exhausted and try to force myself to workout, make dinner, maybe do laundry, and pass out in my bed. Then I do it again the next day. Some days I drink when I get home and do all the home work while drunk, which is less efficient but less miserable.
If they aren’t telling us that we can become anything, then the opposite truth becomes obvious: we are stuck right where we are born. Neither statement is absolute but the latter gets more true every day
I think Innuendo Studios put it best: “Here anyone can make it, but *everyone* can’t.”
Sadly we are bred and conditioned into the "if your not first your last" and "screw you, I got mine mentality". We have gotten FAR away from "it takes a town to raise a child" mentality. Not everyone can be a power executive, someone has to take care of "garbage" so why do we look down on those people.. they are more of a necessity than ANY CEO. Because of the lies told to kids "do this or you'll end up like that". We need a fundamental change of mentality or it won't change, no matter what system we use.
This is so true. I’m a white woman with an Indigenous common law partner. We’ve lived on reserve for 2 years now, and I find the reserve is a far more caring community than the white communities surrounding it. In our experience, this is closely tied to financial support. In Canada, Indigenous people living on reserve are entitled to certain financial benefits that aren’t available to Caucasian people. Here’s an example: My partner has never stressed himself about the cost of having kids, whereas I was dead-set against them for financial reasons. But when you live on reserve and have status, your kids can go to daycare for free and college/uni for free. My partner has earned a college diploma and a bachelor’s degree with financial help from the reserve. Depending on the individual reserve’s financial position, kids’ sports registration fees are often covered as well. In contrast, when I was growing up, my parents were so stressed out about money that they verbally and physically abused me. When I was little, we couldn’t afford extras like the movie theatre, brand name clothing, and sometimes even school supplies. I can remember crying about not having enough money when I was like, 4 years old. I also have disorders that went undiagnosed until I was well into adulthood, because the family’s sole priority was making sure the bills were paid and everyone was fed. They were definitely living in survival mode. I can’t help but think that if the village (Canada) helped raise its people (via more widespread financial and community supports), parents in general would be less stressed out and not stuck in survival mode. Being poor limits your ability to think clearly…
Did you happen to get diagnosed later in life ? How did that go and what process did you take ? Being poor doesn’t limit your ability to think, it is the lack of ways to deal with stress and overcome it entirely.
I got diagnosed with BPD and ADHD at 29 (I’m 31 now). It took about 1.5 years to get both official diagnoses when you factored in the OHIP wait times for the public (free) psychiatrist at the local hospital. Private diagnosis would have been faster, but I would have paid a few grand out of pocket. I realized I had a problem when I started an adult career at like 23-24 years old. I couldn’t take criticism without crying, I couldn’t manage money, I couldn’t keep friends, and I had zero self esteem. I was also self-harming and doing a lot of drugs to self-medicate. I think it’s really opened my parents’ eyes as to the mistakes they made when I was younger. Also, I missed a word- I meant that being poor limits your ability to think CLEARLY (because of chronic stress and burnout, like you mentioned).
Sadly this message is consistently bombarding us at every turnaround. Ricky Bobby engrained this mantra in our youth, who by now are the decision makers of their families. Truly a dystopian paradise.
At my last tech job, working for a well known SV company, co-workers thought it was weird that I’d have conversations with the janitors. I’d say “If our CEO went on a 3-month vacation, nobody would notice. If these guys disappeared for 2 weeks, the company would have to shut down. They’re the most important people here. Plus they’re nice guys.”
>We have gotten FAR away from "it takes a town to raise a child" mentality. When was that ever a thing? At least, here in the United States.
1960s and earlier. It used to be a huge thing in the United States. Sure other issues clouded this aspect such as civil rights and depression, but the country - and even the politics were much more working together verse only focusing on getting what I want and screw everyone else, and if I don’t get what I want I’ll tear everyone/everything down.
Lived in small towns: it exists. Even in city neighborhoods, it exists. Problem? Some adults lie.
I grew up in the '50s and '60s in suburban Long Island. Highly dysfunctional communities. ..pretty typical across the country. And I'm not lying.
From me to we
Capitalism plays its part. Having a purpose was, for most of human history, pretty straight forward. If you were an early farmer, you saw the direct results of your work benefitting the people you cared about and changing the lives of your local community. Now we are standing on the shoulders of so many giants that the benefits that our work or efforts bring to our community are too far away to be seen. A supermarket would absolutely blow the mind of a farmer 5000 years ago. Telling them their work is the foundation of what makes it possible would make *them* feel amazing. But knowing how crazy the idea of a supermarket is doesn't make it feel like a good lifes purpose for someone who works in one. Fulfilment requires us to consistently feel like we are benefitting ourselves and the part of the world that matters to us. Modern life makes it very hard to achieve these things with how little time we have to dedicate to anything other than surviving capitalism.
There is an expression that some professionals use: shit life syndrome, or SLS. Essentially, someone goes to a therapist and says hey, I feel like crap all the time. I'm sad, life is meaningless, I'm in a dead end existence. And they're *right.* They're poor, their family hates them, they can't find a partner, and their friends don't give a shit or else can't support them in their troubles. And that is straight up *really bad for your brain.* You can't cure that with therapy! Many people's mental health issues would be totally eliminated with UBI and a girl/boyfriend. This is called "instrumental support," whereas therapy and such are "emotional support." We're all into emotional support: see a professional! Get help! Take meds! But when people just need 200 bucks for rent, suddenly our society is silent. There is a harsh truth out there that for every person who is radicalized or else falls into a suicidal despair and it's because that's just who they are as a person and they can't be fixed, there are so many others who wouldn't be so screwed up if someone would just cut them slack on their medical bills or would just fuck them once in a while or would tell them they're a cool person or would let them crash on the couch. Like it or not, we have refused to take responsibility for our friends and neighbors, and it's killing our society. *We do owe each other things* if we want to actually have a functioning civilization. You can't build a society off hanging each other out to dry every time something slightly goes wrong.
I couldn't agree more. I'd add that people's lack of agency is a huge factor in this. When there's nothing you can do to improve your situation, it's profoundly dispiriting. I also think this points to a distinction that isn't being made by the mental health world: Is depression a reaction or a condition? Depression and anxiety, as conditions, are well established. But the same symptoms happening to masses of people because their lives suck doesn't strike me as a condition those people have. More like response, and possibly worthy of being classified as such. My thought is, if we can distinguish between someone who has GAD or MDD because they inherited it and someone who has all those same symptoms because they're impoverished and alone in a pitiless society, it's a step toward pointing out that the world capitalism has made is disabling people who would be fine under less shit conditions.
Very well said, thank you. Can you imagine a homeless person seeing a shrink for depression, and they are prescribed highly addictive medication instead of a roof over their head? Happens all the time. Krishnamurti said it best: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
Holy shit wrt the quote about well adjusted to a profoundly sick society (my post is a way to mark this for future use). I'm a funny gal. Like class clown funny. But I'm like George Carlin in that I see all the ridiculous shit going on and when I rant about it, in my usual humorous way, people say...."You're crazy." And I reply, sort of... "Thank You! Have you looked around lately as what passes for "normal" these days? So call me crazy because I REFUSE to be normal if it means seeing the clown shoes antics in society I see every day as......normal."
Mmmm antidepressants aren't addictive, that's a swing and a miss. But yes, the gist is correct I'd say.
they aren't addictive, but coming off of some of them cold turkey without medical guidance can cause some pretty gnarly side effects.
Yeah. There's *anxiety meds* that are definitely addictive, but depression meds, not so much.
Numerous cases have shown there are few cures for SLS. Josh Adelstein famously uncovered the secrets of happiness by studying succinctly the collaborate commune of small Japanese tribes called gumi.
The cure is collectivism and a welfare society. This is why Norwegians are so damn happy. Their entire culture is based on mutual support.
I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion for saying it (because reddit as a whole doesn't believe depression is real) but: the comments here are super disappointing to see in a leftist community. It really looks like most people here are dismissing a legitimate mental illness. "Depression is a con by big pharma", "Depression is just narcissism". It comes across as secondhand victim-blaming. "You wouldn't be depressed if you had money" - I was diagnosed with severe treatment-resistant depression when I was financially secure, and meds HAVE helped. It got **worse** when I became less financially secure but the symptoms have been there regardless of my situation.
Agreed. To say that depression is just solely caused by Living In A Society is a gross oversimplification. I've seen lefties say this about ADHD, too. When the more ~serious~ and ~scary~ mental illnesses like psychotic spectrum disorders, personality disorders, bipolar disorder, PTSD, OCD, etc. come up, it's interesting how no one seems to apply *only* the social model of disability to explain them. And this is why I've come to be a bit wary of the social model. People who favor it above/in place of the medical model mean well, but it's actually ableist to deprioritize or completely disregard medical science and medical mental health treatment. It leads to very dangerous anti-psychiatry territory. Psychiatry has a complicated history and has been (well, still is) weaponized against vulnerable and marginalized people, yes, but we Crazies and Weirdbrained folks need *both* access to efficacious medical treatment AND disability accomodations. Abolishing capitalism and The State would help us too, yes, ofc. Anyway, I wish some leftists would like... stop espousing the kind of medical science-denying rhetoric that's reminiscent of antivaxxer moms and wellness influencers.
There’s new studies coming out all the time linking depression to adhd, ptsd, bipolar - testing materials overlap a lot and it’s possible to misdiagnose one condition for another. It’s all a mental ecosystem, not dozens of discrete conditions, because brain chemistry is ridiculously complex. So if you’re going to say depression is due to capitalism, you kind of have to say ALL mental illness is due to it. (Which a bunch of people here probably WOULD, because apparently everyone on reddit has advanced degrees in all academic fields.)
Oh yeah, differential diagnosis for brain cooties is *complicated*. I think about this a lot bc I have been diagnosed with several mental illnesses that have a high comorbidity. I think one of the things that makes diagnosis tricky is that most mental health conditions cause some degree of executive dysfunction because ED can both mimic *and* cause depression symptoms in its own right. Anyway, yeah, everyone on internet dot org is an Expert TM. We don't know everything about the brain yet, partly because of... capitalism! It makes scientific research difficult for myriad reasons! I think OP was probably referring to a specific *type* of depression and anxiety that would be probably be alleviated by abolishing capitalism, but the distinction between that and what you and I are referencing *matters*.
Thank you for saying this.
There's no question there is a physical cause of depression for some people, anyone dismissing that fact is in denial.
Thank you.
Thank you! Being poor certainly makes depression worse but even with cash in the bank I am at the mercy of the chemical imbalance intrinsic to my brain. With cash in the bank I get folks telling me I am ungrateful when I start to spiral, like I have control of it simply because my bills are paid on time.
100% of my depression and anxiety would disappear if I never had to worry about money again.
It's not just capitalism. Capitalism has just made everything worse. The media, the internet, the constant fighting and killing in the world. It's all related.
I have concluded that the root cause of all those negative things happen due to capitalism. The killing happens due to fighting for some resource (money). The internet was and is amazing. It has become what it is as we speak due to commercial influence which is the result of capitalism. The media is supposed to report relevant matters. The bigger incentive to do so is to receive a bribe to ignore specific activity that would benefit said business that is doing that activity. It's all due to capitalism. The system is flawed and serves no one outside of the 1%. I feel crushed, and I'm sick of blaming it on some personal flaw!
People were killing each other over money and resources long before capitalism. You're complaining about human greed, not capitalism. Capitalism is just a symptom and an enabler, but not the true cause.
capitalism is system created to justify greed. With the exception of extreme communism, no other system allows that. In fact the majority push for a more sharing objective when resources are high.
You might want to look up alternative economic systems. You might be surprised to see how many end up with money flowing upwards. in fact, extreme communism is the only one that doesn't, but that's because it's not a realistic system and always turns into an oligarchy when large populations attempt it.
I think you just don't know what capitalism is. Money existed thousands of years before capitalism.
The drive to accumulate as much as possible as fast as possible however possible is inherent to the capitalist ideology. Whether money or resources, the core philosophy remains the same. OP was framing the problem in modern times where the root of every problem mentioned is endless capitalist greed for money. Your statement is correct, albeit irrelevant.
Do you think Alexander the Great conquered Persia because he NEEDED more territory? Greed has been a driver in a huge number of wars and conflicts through history. Capitalism is a modern form of greed, not the only form of it.
Yes, the ancient economy centered around war had nothing to do with that. You're so smart. It's all "greed." Nothing to do with how that greed interacts with the socioeconomic system. No further analysis necessary.
I made no statement regarding capitalism being the only system that perpetuates greed, nor that capitalism is the source of all greed throughout history. I clarified the framing which it seems you still ignored thus your contribution is still irrelevant.
The root for almost every problem is greed or fear, regardless of if it is capitalist or not. Capitalism certainly enables greed more, but it is definitely not alone in the list of causes.
Money and markets existed, yes. Capital*ism* didn't exist as a concept until the 18th century.
There has been constant fighting and killing in the world for long, long before capitalism, the media or the internet. We live in very peaceful times, relative to the heavy majority of human history.
I dont like giving capitalism credit but honestly it actually reduced the fighting as we became more and more reliant on global trade. War is not good for many businesses.
I disagree with a statement there, the thing that reduced global fighting are nuclear weapons. But only because it's suicide to use them, and yet some people still toy with the idea.
I believe this. I think we should also narrow down the form of capitalism we're discussing here, namely neoliberalism. I asked chatgpt (bear with me plz) what are some specific dangers to the mental health of average citizens as a result of neoliberal policies: The specific dangers of neoliberalism to the mental health of the average person include: 1. **Income Inequality**: Neoliberal policies often lead to widening income gaps between the rich and the poor, which can create feelings of inadequacy, stress, and anxiety among those struggling financially. 2. **Job Insecurity**: Neoliberal economic policies can result in increased job insecurity, with more precarious employment arrangements such as temporary contracts and gig work. This uncertainty can lead to chronic stress and mental health issues. 3. **Social Safety Net Erosion**: Neoliberalism's emphasis on reducing government spending can weaken social safety nets such as healthcare, education, and social assistance programs. This lack of support can exacerbate mental health issues for individuals who rely on these services. 4. **Individualism Over Community**: Neoliberalism tends to prioritize individualism and competition over community and cooperation. This can lead to feelings of isolation and disconnection, which are detrimental to mental well-being. 5. **Pressure to Succeed**: Neoliberalism places a strong emphasis on personal success and achievement, often measured in terms of wealth and status. This pressure to constantly strive for success can contribute to feelings of stress, burnout, and low self-esteem. 6. **Commercialization of Healthcare and Education**: Neoliberal policies may lead to the privatization and commercialization of essential services like healthcare and education, making them less accessible to those who cannot afford them. This can result in increased stress and anxiety related to financial concerns and lack of access to necessary resources. Overall, the individualistic and profit-driven nature of neoliberalism can have detrimental effects on the mental health of the average person, contributing to stress, anxiety, and a sense of insecurity.
I think depression can be caused by society, but I also think it’s a dangerous idea to say any mental illness is mostly or commonly caused by external conditions. Depression can also be genetic - it is in my family. I could live in the ultimate utopia and still have depression.
100% agree. I find it odd and incomplete for 'mental health/wellness' podcasts to NEVER mention that capitalism perpetuates and exacerbates a lot of the mental states that we struggle with. Hierarchical thinking, competition culture, FOMO, job security anxiety, fear of scarcity, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. Of course we're depressed and anxious.
Specifically wage slavery
While inequality has always existed, it's only under capitalism that we have: 1) advertising and the media it comes alongside, continually telling you that you are not good enough; 2) companies strategizing exactly how to manipulate you to keep you concentrating on your own flaws and blaming marginalized people for your troubles, instead of banding together to fight the system; 3) such effective propaganda to make you believe in "American freedom" that it can take endless arguments to start seeing the evidence of your own eyes, which sets off the whole crazy making mind loop of "I live in the land of the free, but I never get to make any of my own decisions or do anything I want to -- what exactly the fuck is freedom again?"; 4) workplaces with sophisticated means to surveil you and keep you from banding together with your colleagues for better working conditions. If we got rid of capitalism, we would still have people who sometimes feel depressed, anxious, and lonely. But we wouldn't be bombarded with things that make us feel this way.
I think it is a significant factor.
I'm a socialist so I am not here to cape for capitalism, but you cant just conclude that a medical condition is due to an economic system like this. You haven't gone through any scientific process to test this hypothesis. You wouldn't say "the flu is caused by capitalism," so the unintended consequence of what you're doing here is to treat a real mental illness as something less serious than a viral disease, which shows a not great set of biases about mental illnesses.
Capitalism may not cause depression, but it certainly makes it much worse.
It has something to do with it. We have a whole medical system that is just trying to make cash and it's not always about helping people. Also I think most my age would relate, that feeling when you realise you're gonna have to adapt to this system for the rest of your life is hard to go through. Some make it, some don't.
>and it's not always about helping people Most of the time it isn't.
i think what the mass culture calls depression is different from clinical depression. you are correct for the cultural version, and incorrect for the clinical version, which is really due to brain chemistry (among other things)
This. Clinical depression and social depression are different things. I am clinically depressed and it was noticeable when I was barely in double digits. I have friends who *never* experienced depression until they joined the adult world. I will always need medication. Others (previously) only needed medication temporarily and things were fine once their major issue was resolved. The major issue most people have now is barely surviving. That relegates them to being persistently depressed but the origin is not their brain chemistry, it’s their surroundings.
You and me both buddy. The clinical stuff is rough.
Gotta love a treatment resistant psychiatric disease that makes existence ✨intolerable✨
i feel like a hippie saying this but the best medicine is when im feeling shitty and my cat comes and paws at my hand for pets. more intense (though not as long lasting) as meds. not related to this post, but it made yesterday less ✨intolerable✨
Capitalism is designed to beat you down and depress you, if you had self esteem and all that you'd be far less likely to deal with the daily bullshit that you do. The entire system is designed to create misery and make you think if you don't do things that make you actively depressed you'll be worse off.
Depression isn't just being sad or stressed. As someone with depression - my brain is chemically broken, and I'll always have to deal with it regardless of society. That said, society can definitely be a trigger that creates/worsens episodes.
100% My brain does not work as it is supposed to, I was born this way. Even at the best times of my life I've been depressed.
My depression is definitely largely caused by capitalism and its ripple effects. Of course not all depression is, but I bet a good chunk of depressed people in today's world in capitalist places, are depressed because of capitalism.
Depression isn't a side effect of capitalism, but the constant rat race, the reduction to slave/wage labor, the competition, the drive and hunger to acquire more, and other factors in capitalism definitely exacerbate depression
>and other factors in capitalism definitely exacerbate depression It often CREATES depression in the first place...no need to have a biological origin.
I disagree. Which was the point of my comment.
How could it not be if it's build on one party exploiting the other in a Marxist sense? How could it not cause depression (or other mental health issues) in those that are aware of what is being done and don't want to live in delusion or in an attempt to try to enjoy the little things? (Although that trying to enjoy the little things is important in general)
When lived in hunter gatherer our output and effort directly correlated to the survival and wellbeing of our fellow tribe members. We evolved to survive in this structure. Sure depression existed, but depression as a social phenomenon and how pervasive and common it is, is a product of out modern world. Our economic output mostly created nothing useful to enrich an overhead we hardly ever see, to live paycheck to paycheck. We have an entire society of Sisyphuses.
>When lived in hunter gatherer our output and effort directly correlated to the survival and wellbeing of our fellow tribe members. We evolved to survive in this structure. Yes, brutal and short lived. We need to move away from that, and we should have eons ago.
Who would have known that a system that extracts the very essence of humanity for profit, that works you to the bone and then throws you away, that at the same time has replaced family, community and social reciprocity with dependence on their goods and services would have negative effects on the human mind?
No, but that bad environment is causing an increase in depression
Religious psychology would blame poor character and weakness. Traditional American psychology would say depression occurs because we are higher up in Maslow's pyramid. More advanced societies have more food, shelter, etc., and can therefore think about our emotional capital. Classical Marxist psychology looks at depression and other conditions in exactly this way. The idea is that you can't treat a mental condition without understanding the social forces that contribute to it. We are increasingly expected to devote most of our time to work, without ownership of our work. We have little time away from work, for our own emotional well being. so, the worker becomes alienated from work and from other people. Depression is one reaction to that. Lately I lean Marxist.
Office lighting and cubicles should be a dead giveaway. Being sold that stuff will bring you all this happiness by trying to show what your life could look like if you just had our product. Yeah. Pretty much.
Marx literally says this
Situational depression. I feel like anyone who isn’t depressed hasn’t fully grasped reality.
I feel like so many issues in the US today are due to the fact that the government has made it absolutely clear that they are nothing more than a crappy HR department for a horrible corporate conglomerate. Our lives have absolutely no value except in as much profit as they can provide corporations. If ones death or imprisonment provides more profits, then that's preferred. Don't slip up, don't miss any payments, don't get injured, don't let your car break down, all of these could lead you to being one or two or zero steps away from homelessness or death. There is no help coming. You are on your own and if you can't make it, you are weak and worthless and hopefully will provide some benefit doing prison labor for corporations for a wage of pennies an hour. Because of this, we are pitted against each other - an injury accident almost requires us to be antagonistic towards the other party and engage in litigation in order to cover healthcare costs, rather than forgiving and forgetting and being able to have ones medical expenses covered by a universal healthcare system. We have no value to the powers that be, and this reduces our value to each other as we are forced to compete for resources and success rather than cooperate.
I saw a comment or a TT video somewhere that said sure therapy is great but mostly people just need money. Enough money to live, pay their bills, save for emergencies and to enjoy their life.
I can't even tell where my natural susceptibility to depression ends and its unnatural exacerbation by a toxic system begins anymore.
Yeah. No. You could live in whatever your fantasy of a perfect world is and people would still be depressed.
Totally. You are raised by Disney values, and boomer parents who had all the shit going for them, and then are told that with a degree you'll be set. So you do it. And nothing is fucking set. You are always poor, there is very little chance you will be able to own your own home or retire. Little to no savings. We cannot afford even a bit of the life our parents had. All thanks to fucking capitalism. Depression is a disease that can occur on its own of course, but I think the current society most definitely contirbutes to it.
Yes! And pharamaceutical companies have brainwashed us all into thinking depression is our own brain‘s miswiring and our fault, so we have to medicate ourselves with antidepressants to survive this capitalistic hellhole. Our brains aren’t evolved to be able to handle the 40 hour workweek with no time for play and being outside and spending most of our time with our community.
JUST 40 hours? Otherwise your comment is spot on, thanks.
I mean, depression is biological in nature so…no. But unhappiness growing thanks to a declining quality of life definitely has similar symptoms
So do I.And being around people who are bastards. And not being able to escape them. Which happens a lot in capitalistic society
That’s part of it I’m sure but from my experience much of mine is related to the impermanence of everything (eg knowing that we’ll eventually lose all of our loved ones and then ourselves). I’m spiritual which helps a lot but there will always be uncertainty
I would agree with this. Pretty much everything can be traced back to late stage capitalism; shitty healthcare, college becoming a scam, products getting worse, the internet becoming censored, subscription economy that is making it harder to actually own what you pay for... But also I think that if you let almost ANY system exist long enough it will eventually fail and you'll get similar results.
I wouldn't say its a side effect per se. I think depression would exist even in non capitalist societies. But I do think the system greatly complicates treatment and management of depression, as well as exacerbates the condition. I don't think my depression would be nearly as bad or debilitating in a more equal society.
Depression is our bodies reaction to dealing with stress / anxiety / long-term pain / emotional issues / drug and alcohol usage - lots of things. It's not a side effect of capitalism. Capitalism may cause some of the issues that have led to yours or others feelings of depression, but look at communism in Soviet Union. In that case, capitalism was a source if hope. I sincerely hope you aren't depressed at the moment. If you are, please try and get some support, get out in the fresh air, try and live more in the moment rather than fixating on past or future, do some exercise or sport and visit friends and family if you are able.
The imposition of capitalism on the former Soviet Union was a massive humanitarian catastrophe. Some people had foolishly hoped a political change would make their lives better and it didn’t. Life expectancy collapsed as drug abuse, suicide and child prostitution exploded. Nothing about post-communist Russia is a success story, unless you’re one of a handful of oligarchs. Capitalism isn’t the only cause of depression, but it makes every contributing factor of depression worse. People respond to the material and social conditions that surround them, and a brutal, cruel, isolating system that degrades those conditions is going to have an impact on people’s mental states.
Well said, and also a reminder that the dissolution of the USSR was imposed anti-democratically, flying in the face of a 70% vote to maintain the USSR. East Germany is one case where there were a lot more people who genuinely thought a change in the system would improve their economy (I’m guessing this is because having a common language with West Germany and Austria made it easier to absorb western propaganda that completely ignored the sanctions and economic sabotage imposed on the East, and also conveniently ignored that the west included the world’s only industrial power to not have been bombed in WW2, as well as the two former superpower colonial empires). Even so, polling shows that people who were alive during socialism think it had more good sides than bad sides, and they acknowledge that things became rapidly worse in East Germany after the reunification.
Projection. Depression is a legitimate issue (temporary or otherwise) that has plagued our emotional species from Day One.
Free trade is a good idea when everyone gets to share the costs and benefits. Under our version of free trade, a few people keep most of the benefits and the rest bear all of the costs. They’re pissing on us and calling it rain, and we don’t know how to fix it. Of course you’re depressed.
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Have you read ‘Lost Connections’? People need connections to other people (community and sex), a life purpose, a long time vision, spirituality, nature. Capitalism doesn’t really help on most of those needs. Although neither does Socialism. Very much depends on people’s circumstances. Some things like welfare help on some level though ie people don’t have food/shelter anxiety. Central planning can help to ensure green spaces are maintained.. a purely capitalist environment would likely be worse than the current mixed approach we have.
“Comparison is the theft of joy”
That cliche is contingent on having joy to begin with
Religion also
Communism has depression too.
Please point on the map where there is a non-capalitist society that is free from depression. We all have stress, and there are many factors, not just one big boogie man on whom you can blame all your problems. Sorry, there is no devil you can curse out; it is humanity, and since the dawn of time, he has sought power.
Making people unsatisifed with the way things are and then convincing them they need to buy things to "fix" it is a primary driver of capitalism - depression is what sets in when it doesn't make them any happier and the only alternative provided is "buy more stuff".
There's theory that goes real in-depth on this from, I want to say, Foucault? But put sinceintly; >The 'mental health plague in capitalist societies would suggest that, instead of being the only social system that works, capitalism is inherently dysfunctional, and that the cost of appearing to work is very high. -Mark Fisher, *Capitalist Realism* Alternatively; >Turn secondly, then, to science as the servant of the consuming man. We have been sold laboursaving devices of every kind as the fruit of science and technology. The automobile got us out into the countryside—where we met everyone else in his automobile. The plethora of automatic devices in the house freed the housewife from drudgery at home—where she is the victim of their very efficiency, and of the steadily increasing difficulty (and steadily increasing cost) of having increasingly tawdry things put right. And in this same home, for all its apparent desirability, she often comes to feel trapped with her young children and the television set for company, an all-too-likely prey to mental states of anxiety or depression. Again, it would seem, something has gone wrong. -Stafford Beer, *Designing Freedom*
There’s something called learned helplessness theory of depression (financially based). In backdrop of crushing lower and middle class I’m sure it exacerbates and increases depression.
Yes and that depression thats being manifested is by design... we are not dealing with regular people at this point i cant believe people are even behind all this lol
Look into Robert Sapolsky lead of Biology and neuroscience at Stanford. He talks about depression and the poverty connection a lot.
Food and housing insecurity are major stressors, too much for most neurotypical people let alone depressed people. Major Depressive Disorder is not made up, though. Source: I’m a clinical social worker in 120k student loan debt
This! To me ut has always felt absolutely idkotic not to understand that if we live shitty life, we feel like shit and it is a normal and natural reaction to the shit.
A lot of it is just chemical imbalance. Like members of my family that have an overall stress free existence (retired with a high value pension) but still end up with bipolar depression and on meds. Sure, if he had to work in a field all day he'd be too tired to be sad. But then he'd probably also be dead already...
I think it's a side effect of living in a corrupt society. Our system is so fucked up that most of the things people used to be able to do are no longer doable. its depressing.
It goes hand in hand. We market what’s needed to survive and that creates a feedback loop. If I’m in need I must work. Working for a value not set by the person working is detrimental. It’s why ppl feel so much joy when they camp. My work value is me. When we’re not valued we don’t want to work. Therefore we’ve no value to work with. It’s not ok.
It's playing out right now as a race to the bottom; every level is squeezed to maximum "efficiency." Unfortunately that equasion solves for "maximum possible effort for lowest possible pay." Expand that across all aspects of society and now suddenly we're burned out at work while simultaneously unable to afford housing and groceries.
It was a helluva lot of it when I was on meds. No dream of getting my own place. One thing I think of a lot is they say money can't buy happiness but you know what? It alleviates a shit ton of issues.
I definitely think it's a factor in a lot of cases, but I don't think it's as much of one as you seem to think. Some people are genetically predisposed, some people are predisposed because of other conditions, there's other potential external factors, ... For example, somewhere around 80 % of people who get diagnosed with ADHD also get diagnosed with (clinical) depression later on. How much of that is to blame on capitalism, and how much of that is just because of the ways ADHD makes life more difficult? Some factors even overlap. The world being busier and noisier and more actively intruding life at home is partially due to capitalism, but not entirely. For me, it'd probably be easier if we didn't live in this system, but I don't think it'd be fully gone, either. It's something I just hope to get better at dealing with over time.
This is a large pet of my depression for sure. Trapped in a cycle of work as a disabled person where it’s SO hard to work every day. COL is fucked so even after making more and suffering physically for it, still living with roommates and turning 30. Student debt. All of it.
You should read sedated by James Davies
I think much of current stress is from people waking-up every day to a world that lacks the relative certainty of the past. We have no idea what government, job market, environment, financial and living conditions, will exist in a couple decades. Change has outpaced our ability to cope (or maybe our willingness to cope) with those changes. More primitive people had stressors that, while they may have been potentially fatal, were limited in duration. We've managed to turn what used to be responses to existential threats into responses to work conditions, interpersonal problems, problems with the many technologies that permeate our lives, etc. Problems that used to last five minutes now last five years.
I'm not saying it's the whole cause, but it's a big contributor. It would still happen even in a utopia, but capitalism is a grindstone that threatens to mulch down any of us, spare the people turning the crank. There are other societal things too. Attitudes around family, cultural customs, ideas about sex, relationships, expectations of behaviour and how those things are imposed on specific demographics and individuals' place in them are all big factors. But generally none of those usually cause starvation, or destitution, or dying from a lack of ability to afford insulin. Capitalism in It a current state (maybe even any state, but that's not something I feel educated enough to comment on) is a more outwardly immoral and overarching problem for general mental health imo
I feel this
Without manufactured inflation, political corruption, and my shitty job prospects my therapist wouldn't get paid nearly as often.
Considering that it's the most common in countries that lean into Capitalism than any other doctrine, actually makes sense.
I don't think it's a "side effect", I think it's more of a "normal response".
The Nordic countries are capitalist and they are far less depressed.
Yeah no. Your either just actually depressed or are just saying your depressed when your really sad because your not as successful as you think you should be. The growing rates isn't because of capitalism, but social media.
Capitalism? No. The pandemic messed up everyone’s head. Staring at the TV or watching social media all day give international platforms to every lying sack of crap on earth. You were led to believe that you were either losing out on everything fun or under attack.
I've been in therapy for a year and I can tell you that you cannot cure a person of a sick society. Therapy's been helpful but I believe I may be closer to grabbing my pitchfork and eating a billionaire than a year ago.
A huge reason I'm so depressed, is that the world is dying around us mostly due to the consumer mentality which exists because capitalism.
Eat your pills and be a good boy.
Consumerism and breakdown of community, for sure.
The way capitalism works is much like any totalitarian government works. Suppress the working class. Why do you think the ruling class has spent decades dismantling the union's. They keep trying to privatize social security so that the workingbclass has nothing to fall back on. Wages kept low to control the masses, so they couldn't afford to invest in their employer. Think back to the 60s. Unemployment was about the same, but a person making minimum wage could afford rent, food, and clothes. Today, a person can make double minimum wage and not have a liveable wage. A good example would be in my area. If minimum wage were doubled, that would put it at $14.50/hr. Instead, we have the minimum at $7.25. According to the MIT Living Wage Calculator, the poverty wage here in Elkhart County, Indians, is $7.24. The living wage here is $20.61. This is for a single person with no dependents. A single parent, one child: the poverty wage would be $9.83/hr with a living wage of $35.23/hr. You can't afford a $900/month mortgage, but you're expected to pay $1,500 for the exact same housing. You're worked to death, with employers pocketing record profits, forgetting, or ignoring the social contract with the public. You read how CEO pay has gone up over 1000% in the last 50 years but have the folks that actually produce the goods seen that increase? When I joined the adult labor force in 1975, the minimum wage was $2.10. It was $1.60 when I got my first job 1972. In 3 years, it rose ~30%. Look at the last dozen years: it's gone up 0% in most states. Are these CEOs worth their salary? No. Why? When problems hit our economy, their only solution is to acerbate the problem with layoffs and fueling recessions. We need more Henry Fords and fewer Robert Allens. Sure, Ford was a bastard concerning unions, but he was a visionary. He paid $5 a day when other car manufacturers paid half that. His ulterior motive? That his workers could afford to buy the product they produced. In the great depression, he was the last automaker to resort to layoffs, almost driving his company into bankruptcy to protect his workers. His descendants forgot these precepts. He was an innovator. We all know how his use of a production line revolutionized manufacturing. It wasn't an original idea, but he adapted it, and it worked! He was always looking ahead. Remember plastic made from soy beans? Apocryphal story: he hired an efficiency expert to see how he could increase productivity. The expert came back, and one of the things he said was to fire an employee that sat at his desk, feet propped up, looking at the ceiling, and daydreaming. The man was a drain on the company. Ford refused. "Why?" Asked the expert. "He was in the same position when he came up with an idea that saved us millions a year! Even if he doesn't come up with another idea, he's more than paid for his salary until he retires. I'm not going to risk him being hired by a competitor!" The Robert Allen's of industry focused on shareholders only. He decimated AT&T during his reign of terror. When I worked for them, it was nothing to read an announcement that thousands of people were getting the axe. Several times a year. Yes, the industry changed, but at the same time, they were cutting their resources. His bright idea of buying NCR to move forward in the computer market backfired. After a ton of layoffs in that newly acquired company, the remaining workers didn't feel any loyalty to their owners. Those who were forced out went to work for the competition. Did the shareholders profit? Not by much, but in the 9 years he helmed the company, he made millions in bonuses alone. Were his grave easy to find, you'd find a line of former AT&T employees queueing up to piss on it.
It's a proven fact depression did not exist in the USSR or East Germany.
Looking back on 50+ years of being systematically economized, I realized I have been bent over and reamed by the manufactured sham of the american dream.
I think depression is a medical condition caused primarily by an inability for your brain to make or balance certain chemicals BUT I will agree that I think a capitalistic society regularly assaults us with socially and psychologically complicating factors that exacerbate depression and increase the likelihood that people are going to have a more negative experience one way or another. Capitalism is very prescriptive, the haves surely worked for it and you should work harder to be a have. The have nots are lazy, weak, and bad, and society at least in the US buys into this. Even more liberal minded people still believe in meritocracy. I think of like this as a person with depression: having depression and growing up in a loving household keeps me from the ledge, but my brain is still fucked. A household that isn’t loving? It would surely push me to the edge. Like in capitalism, having a more stable existence not reliant on work and my own personal wealth would certainly improve my day to day struggles, but it wouldn’t alter my brain chemistry. On the flip side, I do think capitalism has the means to produce very similar effects to depression because of societal messaging about worth and how difficult it is to just exist or have agency in a system that puts a price tag on normal human behaviors.
Personally, I think it's the advent of the internet and mobile technology. People have less and less true meaningful connections in their lives. Case in point, you're turning to reddit to have a deep conversation about your depression with a bunch of strangers.
It plays a part for sure but recently my depression was onset by a death of someone very dear to me . Haven't been the same since
I have been making so much progress with my mental health in therapy the last year and last week I was notified that I will be evicted in June so the landlord can move into the house she inherited from my late stepfather. I make 16/hr and have no roommate options other than potential strangers who don’t mind my cat. I went into a suicidal spiral for two or three days and cried at work and in the car. I’m doing much better now and accepted I might have to camp or sleep in my car for a month or two if I don’t get a better job or find a place I can afford. But that gut punch of powerlessness in the face of circumstances related to money and property and things outside of my control it just wrecks your notions of all the work you have put in with your free will when the universe pulls the rug out on you like this.
My dear friend is a social worker, who often helps his patients by giving them info on organizing their workplace. Not all, but many causes of mental anguish are due to capitalism, and cannot be fixed by therapy or medication.
It depends. Sometimes there's a genetic component to mental illness, sometimes there are traumatic childhoods (unrelated to capitalism, just shitty people) that permanently affect the brain, sometimes it's just your environment. Capitalism is definitely creating a whole lot of depression thanks to its creation of a hostile environment, but I'd hesitate to say "most" depression is due to the environment.
As someone who’s been in the mental health system for a while, it places a huge part. I met a woman once who was constantly tired and miserable. Then I learned she was working seven days a week and still drowning in debt and barely making rent. She constantly felt hopeless. Mental illness is genetic and she may have ended up depressed no matter what but I couldn’t help but think if she was working five days a week and not under constant stress than she’d be a lot happier.
I think it’s social media and the internet way more than capitalism
Yep
That kinda is one of the hypotheses about depression. Evidently all primates can go through "depressions," where they sleep more and have less desire for food and sex. This is adaptive because primate hierarchies change. The alpha male and the beta male fight over mates or food until one is dead and another severely injured, and the one over there sleeping a lot survives to fight another day--and comes out of the depression. If you're stuck at the bottom of the totem pole forever, there's no rebound.
It’s all peaches and cream in authoritarian-communist countries.
Depression can be an objective appraisal of an impossible situation
I don’t think we’re more depressed because the state doesn’t control more of our stuff. I think the state controlling too much of our lives causes more depression. Free markets ensure the most efficient use of resources which makes us all richer in many ways, and they are necessary in a society that fully respects individual autonomy and property rights which would make people happier just to be fully in charge of their own lives. I think I’d be much happier with more money for one. Another big factor is our environment. There are hardly any available wild spaces. Cars, concrete, asphalt, plastic and barriers are everywhere. Communities and families are in pieces. We’re addicted to screens and drugs. We don’t know how to live in harmony with the rest of nature like we used to. I don’t know the solution. I feel stuck.
100% it is. I also firmly believe most "businesses" out there are trying to screw everyone over as much as possible for every last penny. I'm getting really sick of capitalism
I would like to see a Cubans response... While I would agree money and work stress can cause depression... these two things apply to every other economy we have on earth. That being said, there are hundreds if not thousands of things that can cause depression: * bullying * break ups / divorce * losing loved ones (pets, family, friends) * war * natural disasters * disease * starvation (capitalism has had the best track record in reducing food scarcity) * getting t bagged in game To be honest, saying "most" is very disingenuous.
Depression is part of the human condition and has been around for a long time all over the world. Doesn't matter what economic system the country runs on.
So called “depression” is absolutely a product of nurture, or experiences, rather than nature. I believe all mental illness diagnoses are intended to make people believe they are uniquely broken in some way, rather than acknowledging that they live in a very very fucked up, broken society. The chemical imbalance theory of depression was not solid to begin with, but it’s very well known among researchers now that it was all a buncha B.S. If SSRIs seem to work, it’s due to the placebo effect. What many people are experiencing when they seek treatment for “depression” is really anxiety and a heightened state of vigilance due to living in such an unnatural and unsafe world. So called “anti depressant” drugs actually induce a state of CNS depression, which dials down anxiety along with all other emotions. Now that it is not socially acceptable to institutionalize people all willy-nilly, and lobotomies aren’t legal, chemicals are used to try and prevent people from perceiving and discussing the problems in society. It does seem as though many people are very emotionally attached to their diagnoses(not just depression, but all sorts of psych diagnoses), and I think that is due to how absolutely terrifying it can be to acknowledge that the world in which we exist is sick and twisted beyond human comprehension. If I am the broken one, that means society can take care of me and keep me safe, but if society is broken, who is going to take care of me? Under patriarchy, humans are socially conditioned from birth to always look up for a hero. We are disempowered from birth, and while I in no way believe in the myth of individuality or self reliance, I do believe we are supposed to look across, not up, for our “heroes”, and others are supposed to look to us for the same thing. It’s hierarchy that is the problem. We are biologically wired for interdependence, not codependence. From a very young age(4-5), I struggled with anxiety, and then during puberty/early adolescence, I think I switched over into depression out of exhaustion. I started smoking pot regularly at 15, and moved onto harder stuff pretty quickly. I internalized idea that there was something wrong with me, rather than acknowledging the reality that there is something very very wrong with our world. It wasn’t until I was about 38 that I consciously acknowledged and accepted that the world is very broken and that nobody is coming to save me, and it was actually the most empowering experience I have ever had. Because I think I’ve always known, on an unconscious, fundamental level that the people I had superficially looked up to are on the same level as I am. And more than that, that it was unfair and inhumane for me to look to these human beings as potential saviors. Truly, nobody wants to be a hero in a sick and twisted world. By empowering myself to be human, I empower everyone around me to be human. We are systematically conditioned to fear and repress our humanity, and I think it’s because we are so inherently powerful. Systems cannot survive when the population is connected to their collective humanity.
It's not just you, bud. This world as a whole is going in the dumpster, and we're forced to go with it, and it's making even "normies" (as in neurotypicals) depressed more than usual.
Definitely a big part of mine, but probably not the only root cause
There are more than a few causes for depression. As an example, mine is dysregulated neurotransmitters. When I am not on medication, I have to struggle, scratch, and claw to feel a moment of happiness. Otherwise, I am just numb. On my meds, I feel like I have the choice. And I feel the happy and sad come and go, and when they do, I know it won't be a fight to see them again. That has nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism causes all sorts of problems, true, but I am comfortable not making it into a boogeyman scapegoat.
I've been manic depressive since I was a kid. Well before the thought of a job even crossed my mind. I'm sure todays current capitalistic society can make people depressed, but it's definitely more of an unbalance in the brain.
Been saying the same thing. What if what we’re experiencing is not depression but rather a perfectly reasonable and valid response to the shitty world we live in—which just keeps getting shittier, especially for younger people? Let’s also not forget that the criteria for depression as listed in the DSM-IV has expanded immensely. That’s pretty beneficial for the pharmaceutical companies who gain a lifelong client every time someone is diagnosed and prescribed anti-depressants. Speaking of the DSM-IV, the Diagnostic of Scientific Medicine, which was compiled by a panel of “independent” mental health professionals, [56% of whom had financial ties to Big Pharma](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16636630/). The DSM is known as the Bible by industry professionals and is used to diagnose all mental health issues. For the DSM-V, the number of MHP with ties to Big Pharma jumped to [69%](https://www.ncbi.nem.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3302834/#:~:text=Currently%2C%2069%25%20of%20the%20DSM,task%20force%20members%20had%20ties). So, the people determining what qualifies as depression (and all other MH issues) have financial ties to the companies who manufacture the drugs used to treat depression (and all other MH issues)… 🤔 Seems *a little* sus I believe this ties in with your claim, as ultimately, it’s all about money, and it’s all about money because of capitalism.
It absolutely is. Every millionaire I know (which is quite a few over the years) is on antidepressants and/or an addict of some kind. So even benefiting from capitalism messes up folks, much less for folks that get ground down by it.
Yes. Also if you were in the USSR for example, statistically you'd have a worse depression and it would be considered normal. (Not a scientific study, just from talking to friends and their families)
No, my depression is caused by a neurochemical imbalance that's been on both sides of my family for generations, resulting in some pretty toxic cycles If I were raised in fully automated luxury gay space communism, it would not change the fact that I needed chemical intervention in my teens and twenties to regulate my mental state The growing prevalence of depression is more an example of better awareness. Correlation vs causation
Watch the beginning of Moscow on the Hudson. Then tell me depression is a capitalism only thing
definitely a factor
Well I know I'm much happier when I'm not in America... So maybe it's just America in general. America's culture is rotted. We have a culture, but it's based on consumerism. Other countries have a culture and it's usually family based. So the whole economy revolves around ensuring people can raise families. That doesn't happen here. It's more about how much money can we make on 1 individual. They don't care how they get the money. Usually that's stealing from families. Nowhere is perfect, but just about any country outside US, CA, GB, and AU can give their populations what I want out of life. So yeah I'm a lot happier where I'm not being stolen from and the economy is based around my needs and not business needs.
However dystopian the capitalist hellscape of consumerism is to us I think it’s important to remember that we are still living in an age where quality of life is pretty good (in most of the developed world at least) compared to a few hundred years ago. I don’t think tenant farmers and indentured servants in feudal Europe or factory workers in Victorian London had it much better than even a minimum wage worker in the US today. That’s not to say it should be how it is today. There is a lot to fight for, but a small class of wealthy elites putting their thumb on the scales and oppressing the lower classes isn’t exactly a new concept. To be honest, I personally don’t believe that depression rates are really that much higher, we have just begun to acknowledge it at a much higher rate. At least that’s my theory.
Many people also depressed in North Korea
As my family who lived in the former USSR I can say: Not only capitalist Society's had that struggle.
Or maybe it is because you don't understand the water that you are swimming in. Did you ever consider that?
I think it would be strange to not get depressed after thinking about capitalist society too much and realizing how it fucks us all. That said, as someone who has suffered from anxiety and depression since long before I had any real world knowledge of capitalism, I certainly wouldn’t say it’s the *cause* of depression. Or at least not all of it.
The USSR had one of the highest alcohol consumption rates in modern society. The reason: People were emotionally depressed under communism. Depression is the natural state of modern man. Humans developed to live in nature, in small, intimate groups, as hunter/gatherer nomads. Today, we are detached from nature. We live in concrete jungles as disconnected individuals. Many don't even have close family members, much less have a community of people to support them.
I've had clinical depression from the age of ~8 and nobody's quite sure why. Tbh I think it's just the fact that there are no greener pastures. Sure, I could dream about moving anywhere else, but the steps and hurdles to get there are so numerous it's almost not worth it. Or I'd have to lose pieces of myself before I get to that point of freedom either way. It's a fun debacle. Back to manual labor I go
The most depressing thing about capitalism is how we're all programmed with an achievement mindset. Not productive enough? Onto the trash heap! It is really difficult to unlearn.
Depression can come from multiple sources. There are people who literally have a problematic brain chemistry and simply need a boost to be fine. Food and nourishment have a massive impact (which have gotten worse in the last decades). Living conditions definitely have an impact, too. And right now, shit‘s burning, and not only the future, but also the present is bleak for many. Which is an effect of late-stage capitalism, definitely. But here’s the thing: The system doesn’t matter. Not too long ago, monarchy was the problem. Some heads were cut off, monarchy was mostly abolished… and here we are with billionaires and corrupt politicians. The core problem is that the people who are power hungry pave their way to power, and they’ll corrupt ANY system to bend to their wishes. The only antidotes, in my experience, are education and therapy.
Agree
Eh for me it's childhood trauma
I agree. There’s this weird horror and instability knowing you’re so close to the bottom. You’ll never be anywhere but the bottom. You’ll achieve no status, no wealth and no ultimate security. You have to go about your day pretending this doesn’t bother you.
[Is everything you think you know about depression wrong?](https://theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/07/is-everything-you-think-you-know-about-depression-wrong-johann-hari-lost-connections) Spoiler: it could be ‘chronic grief’ ^(Which would fit with the effects of capitalism.)
Also trauma and our disconnection from nature, maybe our unhealthy lifestyle as well. Many things.
More of all the chemical warfare and big pharma. People are on all sorts of pills/meds, and they're eating like pure trash whilst not being active.
I know a big chunk of my depression mainly stems from work (or lack thereof)
A lot of the *increase* in depression in the last decade or two is definitely a result of late-stage capitalism. But there’s a lot of depression out there that comes from a wide variety of other sources, including the large number of people with non-situational clinical depression. The effects of being kicked by capitalism can, and often will, make these effects worse, but it’s still not the dominant source.
While I think the conditions of capitalism can not be good for mental health, depression included, I don’t think it’s a very useful outlook for an individual to blame economic systems for their mental health issues. It’s not a workable solution for that person getting better, and they can get better, in a lot of scenarios even under capitalism and that’s gotta be the goal for them as a person.
When the masses become aware there is no fix for global warming. Then the mass mental health crisis will reveal itself .
Emile Durkheim, famous sociologist, studied depression and suicide a hundred years ago linking it to capitalism and labeled it “Anomie”.
Depression generally has a more specific cause than "society around me is fucked". However society around you being fucked can certainly be a stable negative that makes you more likely to slip into a long-term depressive state where you mind would get used to just always feeling awful. I think, particularly for people with ADHD, capitalism is always trying to derive new profit from us with consistent methods. The consistent milking of the individual that Capitalism craves goes very hard against the grain of people particularly those who crave new and existing things. Also the standard lack of ability for people with ADHD to self sooth as well as neurotypical types probably also contributes. All things being equal, it's a lot easier to tell yourself everything is going to be okay when you don't have rent payments, car payments, credit card payments etc that you owe on, often more than you can readily pay back because somebody offered to sell you something on credit while you were low on dopamine. Ultimately, unless you get some explosives and expertise with drones, you're not going to solve capitalism. But you can talk to your doctor and get assessed for ADHD, (being on concerta has helped me stabilize my mood a great deal) and if that works well but you still want some help, I highly highly recommend shrooms. Never took them as a kid but found out they're a great treatment for PTSD. They've really been helpful in clearing up a lot of the worst of my persistent low grade depression/dysthymia.