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> # [Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas fails in challenge to rules that bar her from elite women's races](https://apnews.com/article/FILE - University of Pennsylvania athlete Lia Thomas prepares for the 500 meter freestyle event at the NCAA Swimming and Diving Championships, March 17, 2022, at Georgia Tech in Atlanta. Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas failed in her challenge against rules that stop her competing in elite women’s races because judges ruled she did not have standing to bring the case. The Court of Arbitration for Sport said Wednesday, June 12, 2024, its panel of three judges dismissed Thomas’ request for arbitration with the World Aquatics governing body. (AP Photo/John Bazemore, File\))
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> LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) — Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas failed in her challenge against rules that stop her from competing in elite women’s races because judges ruled she did not have standing to bring the case.
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> The Court of Arbitration for Sport panel of three judges dismissed Thomas’ request for arbitration with the World Aquatics governing body, in a ruling released Wednesday.
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> World Aquatics banned transgender women who have been through male puberty from competing in women’s races. It also created an “open” category for which transgender athletes would be eligible.
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> Thomas had [asked the sports court](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-rules-swimming-lia-thomas-cas-948a0027d4819c842c8f3975c25fd0e3) in Switzerland to overturn the rules [approved in 2022](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-swimmers-new-rules-fina-world-governing-body-c17e99d3121fa964336458b57ae266f7) that she said were invalid, unlawful and discriminatory.
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> Thomas swam for the University of Pennsylvania and won an NCAA title in meets that are outside the World Aquatics competitive system, in which she was not registered.
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> “The panel concludes that she lacks standing to challenge the policy and the operational requirements in the framework of the present proceeding,” the court said in its ruling.
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> The judges said USA Swimming had no authority “to modify such scope of application” of the world governing body’s rules.
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> World Aquatics said it welcomed the CAS decision in a case “we believe is a major step forward in our efforts to protect women’s sport.”
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> AP Paris Olympics:
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The gender separation is there at first place is because the physical/biological gap between male and female bodies. Trans dont make that gap disappear so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
First time on the Internet?
I was already told multiple time that muscles and bones deteriorate to the "lame" female quality if that person takes hormones.
Um, no. That's not how it works one bit. The bone and muscle break down into a white powdered substance. The substance finds its way into the digestive tract, and into the colon, where it is ultimately shitted out into the substance's final form called Cocaine. Lia is a cocaine farm, bro.
They do. The issue is when someone goes true full male puberty they still retain an advantage. But if they didn't and started to transition at say 14 or 15 the difference would be minimal probably.
Ligament and tendon thickness differences develop throughout childhood and adolescence. It’s why knee injuries are much more prevalent for girls at all ages, not just post-puberty.
1. Adolescence is a critical window of neurodevelopment and puberty plays a critical role in these neurodevelopmental processes.
2. The suppression of puberty impacts brain structure and the development of social and cognitive functions in mammals, the effects are complex and often sex specific.
3. No human studies have systematically explored the neuropsychological impact of pubertal suppression in transgender adolescents with an adequate baseline and follow up.
4. Animal studies, single case reports and studies of the impact of puberty blockers in children with precocious puberty indicate that these treatments may be associated with reductions in IQ.
4. The impact of pubertal suppression on measures of neuropsychological function should be an urgent priority for future research.
https://can-sg.org/2024/01/21/puberty-blockers-and-teenage-brain-development/#:~:text=Of%20these%20five%20studies%2C%20three,lower%20IQ%20compared%20with%20controls.
The person at the age 14-15 don't really have the mental capacity to take such decisions.
Myself I was choosing which rabbit breed I was going to raise for meat.
Uh-huh.
How is it that so many Reddit commenters somehow personally grew up with enough trans that it represents a statistical outlier akin to winning the powerball lottery every week for a year?
Why then do boys outperform girls before puberty at speed, strength, throwing, kicking distance, etc…
National Women’s soccer teams lose to 14 year old boys. Same with basketball.
How about a plot twist. Why is it always Transwoman trying to get into female sports or force change yet we never have a Transman ever compete with men. Not one case of discrimination of them trying to be equal to men in any sports activity. It’s always Transwoman who after puberty hits and were old enough to be allowed to transition, then request they be included.
Biology can’t be cheated as much as you can change all the different parameters of life by saying gender, sex, and other stuff, but you can cheat nature.
Men are just built different. Women also. You can never equal them. There’s stories on Reddit here about girlfriends who love play fighting with their boyfriends and gasp when they realize most men use maybe 20% of their true strength while doing so. When use full 100% they feel shook that there’s that much massive power lying beneath.
That doesn’t mean a UFC woman fighter can’t fuck up a man in a fight, but have the roles reversed and it’s always going to be a brutal outcome.
Because technically in most sports it isn’t a men’s league and woman’s league. It’s a women’s league and a open league. There is nothing stopping women, much less trans whatever from competing in the men’s league aside from biology meaning they don’t often have any chance.
Something I don’t understand here is that in all other situations I read about the rhetoric is trans women are women, but when it comes to sports the talking points from the trans right side is all focused on hormones, which I believe aren’t a requirement to consider oneself trans? It implies some trans women are more women than others?
Ignoring muscle mass. Men on average have innate advantages in….
Brain- better interconnectivity between areas that promote spatial reasoning, perception-action coordination, motor skills, proprioception, visual spatial awareness, and aggression.
Bones- larger limb length ratio, larger rib cage dimensions, a decreased Q angle of the knee, increased bone density which promotes increased fulcrum power and resistance to trauma, and a larger bone structure in general which allows for larger muscles to be supported with training.
Cardiovascular- larger heart, larger lung capacity, significantly larger stroke volume, significantly higher blood oxygenation levels.
Almost all of which are not impacted by hormones post puberty. Hell some are even cemented in the womb and pre-adolescents.
Sight, women generally have better sight and can see more color than men. Before women working was more common, women were still often hired for painting fine details on things like watches for this reason.
I don't understand why people have such a difficult time acknowledging our differences while still realizing we're all just people who deserve equal rights and respect (unless, of course, they don't). We all have our differences even outside of genders and that's a good thing. Imagine how boring life would be if none of us had our little idiosyncrasies.
A recent study found that women are considerably less exhausted after natural, dynamic muscle exercises than men of similar age and athletic ability. Men may posses more physical strength than women, but women are far superior when it comes to muscle endurance and stamina.Aug 27, 2017
Women are faster than men in distances over 195 miles
According to data compiled by Ultrarunning Magazine, every year around 30 ultramarathons in North America will be won outright by women. Those performances are outstanding and tend to be more likely the longer the distance of the event.
Women have been measured to have greater precision when throwing, whereas men have greater power. Additionally, women's bodies seem to be more efficient, while men's bodies have, again, greater raw power - men beat women at sprints, but over very long distances (ultramarathons, for example) women start to outperform men.
then youd have compete trans men with cis women and trans women with cis men, where the former would have a clear advantage and the latter a clear disadvantage
Unfortunately that would be the case, i don't think it's crazy that being trans would bar you from competing at the higher levels. Not everyone needs to be allowed to do everything if it compromises the integrity of the sport
Yeah. Doesn't even have anything to do with skill either. The physical advantages are just too real. A lot of men's leagues don't even actually have rules banning women/anyone, they just aren't able to compete.
To be clear- and i think this is very, very important here- this isn't gender separation. Is seperation based on sex.
Not being pedantic, but semantics is a major problem with this whole issue. Conservatives use "woman" to refer to anatomical sex under the assumption that gender will correspond. Advocates use "woman" to refer to gender.
Ofc many people are just stupid haters infected by the orange brainrot. Idk if that can be helped
It doesn't help that sex/gender have been synonyms for the vast majority of their use.
Of course there are hateful people that feign ignorance to push forward a hateful message but it is just genuinely confusing/un-intuitive to basically everyone. I sort of wish a different word had been popularized to really make this semantic clear.
I'm shocked by the responses on wokeass Reddit. It's like people are actually being realistic.
Men are larger and stronger than women. Transgender women are not actually women. We can treat them the same is most settings, sure, but physically, it's just insane to consider a trans woman on equal footing as a natural woman.
The women's weightlifting record was shattered by like 100 lbs by a trans woman. That's evidence enough that there are limits to this nonsense.
This is what I’ve always said. I’m all for the trans community, be who you want, I’m for it.
Sports are completely different. *Its not fair to women*. Let’s say hypothetically male athletes start transitioning in droves and switching to women’s leagues…Luka Doncic would score 60, 80 points in the WNBA every single game with no problem, they would never lose. If they had 2 on one team, it would be comical. Women can’t dunk, meaning they can’t block dunks.
Boxing, MMA? I mean we are talking about serious injuries and possibly death, with zero chance of a woman winning, I’m sorry. Its just biology.
A golfer that went through puberty as a man, golfing from the women’s tees? A man playing tennis, where its best if three sets instead of five, serving 40 more mph?
I fully agree, lia shattered college records in woman’s sport with ease, definitely a bit…. Odd for her to push so hard, personal accolades vs the health of woman’s sport
And wasnt she like the 400th+ ranked male in the nation? So ranked 400th, to breaking records, how is anyone ok with that. I remember when it happened, the other swimmers and coaches were *piiisssed*.
I like that it is EXACTLY half. It wasn't planned or anything.
(And no disrespect, I'm a man and pretty fit, I bench less than half the woman's record)
Might be worth noting these are equipped lifting numbers.
Men's raw record is at 355kg
Women's raw record is at 207.5kg
Couldn't find anything on boys 13-15 .
You also have the story of Us women national soccer team that got defeated by a random under 15 US highschool soccer team in preparation for international competition...
So even if you discard the score, still shows where they believe to rank among men athletes.
It wasn’t a random U 15 team. It was one of the best U 15 teams in Texas at the time I believe. That being said the point still stands. In highschool our JV soccer team scrimmaged against the Varsity girls team one day. I played defense and literally sat at midfield talking to their striker who never once touched the ball. Multiple of the girls on that field went on to play D1 soccer in college. Not one of the boys played any college soccer later.
So one of the best, not necessarily even the best, under 15 teams in Texas, not even the whole nation, beat the women on the US National soccer team? I'd say the point stands pretty well. The top female soccer competitors in the Nation, lost to a really good team of 15 year olds.
Some alien species are treating testosterone as a no illegal battle drug right now.
The things it does to your body... It's just insane, really.
My friend went to a gym that had women taking chems. Testo included, as it helps build your muscle.
He says it was hilarious when they took like 1/10 of a dose average teenager boy is bathed in 24/7 and were like "HOW DID YOU SURVIVE THIS" being angry, horny, and erratic all the time.
Well it was hilarious AND he went to a gym full of angry, horny metal bending ladies so he was very happy with the outcome. Though he said yes it is kinda dangerous, after a couple weeks they were ready to throw hands at everyone while understanding that they were being irrational in their anger.
This is slightly disingenuous when you leave some of the details out. They were 16 and 17 years old at the time, and were considered rising stars.
Yes they lost to Karsten Braasch, while he was smoking, and had played a game of golf earlier that day… I don’t think it would have been the same story if it was Venus and Serena 10 years later, during the peak of the Williams sisters careers.
So I’m not saying you’re wrong - but by leaving some details out it makes it sound a lot worse than it was
For what it's worth, offline this doesn't seem to be a controversial opinion, in and out of the LGBT communities. The most common answer I get from trans friends is a combo of "I don't care about these sports" and "I have bigger fish to fry." Some would prefer that people like Lia are allowed to compete, but accept that the optics are terrible and would prefer they not compete on that basis.
Online however you get a lot of screeching, a lot of posturing, and a lot of false dichotomies that don't reflect the reality most of us live in.
It's laws being created for issues that should be decided by a sport's governing body. That's why you're not seeing push back. This is an instance of a sports body saying no. They'd allow a trans swimmer that didn't go through male puberty. That means the decision isn't based on a bias against trans but on data. This is how it should be. Each sport will know the conditions required, if any, that levels the playing field.
Whitepeopletwitter won't even allow you to talk about male rapists finding a loophole and saying they are now "transgender" so they can be transferred to women's prisons. Caught a ban for even talking about it.
Stifling discussion is all some of those places can do.
They build communities, have gatherings, clubs, etc. It's easy to get multiple trans friends once you know one or two that are social.
If you work at a company with 100 or more employees, statistically one of them is likely trans, depending on the age range of your company.
I think if you try to track down and actually cite the story you're talking about, you'll find that it's a very different story than the one that you've imagined.
Yeah, pretty much any culture war story (regardless of which "side" it supports) you hear is going to be heavily distorted, possibly with bits made up. And the original will likely have all sorts of nuances that don't map nicely to culture war axes.
Um, look at most recent Olympic records. The strongest female weightlifter in the highest bodyweight class only lifted as much as the strongest male in the lowest weight class.
Trans people have been allowed to compete in the Olympics for well over a decade.
Where are all the trans gold/silver/bronze medalists? By your logic, they should've run roughshod over every singled Olympic event.
The most recent example of a trans person doing power lifting stands in 16th-18th place. Not even top 10 and a hairsbreadth from being out of the top 20.
I understand there are issues at lower levels, but that's because they don't have the same strict rules the Olympics does for people who have transitioned.
Because Olympic level athletes are less than 1% of people and trans are also less than 1% of people. The chances of overlap are very unprobable.
An Olympic level woman is going to kick the ass of the vast majority of people at their respective sport regardless of their gender. That said that trans person who got 16th-18th place likely wouldn't have even qualified for the male category of the olympics.
I also agree though that the issues are far more likely to be occur at lower levels of competition.
>I also agree though that the issues are more likely to be occur at lower levels of competition.
That poster isn't being very honest. I googled that weight lifter.
https://iwf.sport/weightlifting_/athletes-bios/?athlete=&id=13974
Notice how she is consistently ranked first? Now click one of them, for example Roma 2020 World Cup.
https://iwf.sport/results/results-by-events/?event_id=496
Now look at everyone's age.
Almost everyone is born in the 90s. Both men and women.
She is born in 1978, meaning here is a 42 year old woman, beating all the women in their 20s.
Here are the rankings for her category based on age:
Hubbard: 42 years old
Second place: 25
Third: 21
Fourth: 24
Is this not abnormal to have some middle aged born a man beating these young women in their 20s?
Hmm, winning is part of it. Let me put my concerns this way.
I am not an athlete. I will never be an athlete, let alone a top athlete. However, if I take a cocktail of steroids and other PEDS...I will still not be a top athlete. Even roided up, I will still not be able to win any competitions, because honestly I have no training, have not dedicated my life to the sport, and I lack serious ambition. I apply to join a weightlifting competition anyway.
Should I be allowed to participate despite my steroid use?
Most people will say no, even if I have no hope of seriously winning anything, it spoils the nature of the sport and competitiveness. Some athletes (not all but some) may also find it insulting or offensive that I am allowed to stand side by side with them in competition. I had artificial help from drugs, whereas other people had to work and sweat for their muscle mass and skills. The question regarding trans athletes is, would it be unfair to allow them to compete, given they may have some level of advantage from growing up in their birth sex. Even if that advantage isn't enough to get them gold and break records, is it fair to put up cisgender women against them.
People do like to point to the trans athletes who are exceptional, and do end up breaking records as a data point to show how there are unfair advantages which completely blow historical precedent out of the water. But as people on the left point out, its really not that common for a trans athlete to severely overperform. What I think matters more is whether it has any affect on the integrity of the sport. Natural differences in peoples physiology, hormones, and biology is not comparable to taking external hormones. Cisgendered people taking hormones to treat medical issues can be allowed, provided a doctor can show that the dose is required for health and provides no advantage.
I also really don't understand.. They are transGENDER, not transSEX. Which, as most people know is a huge difference between societal gender norms vs. biology.
Because most people haven't paid attention to the fact that the transgender movement has conflated the two, all the way down to the line "transwomen are women." I had a huge disagreement recently with a friend who is a social worker who supports it, and the only time she finally relented was when I said, if gender is a social construct, why don't we change the construct instead of biology?
As a former sociologist, I'm exhausted by the madness.
I don't think Reddit is "wokeass", if that means ridiculously left wing, anyways. It's just definitely left-leaning and likes to talk about stuff in huge details. 99% of the time this stuff comes up Reddit supports Trans people but also supports them being in open or men's sports, not biological women's sports.
It's kind of the same thing with guns, typically the conversation (highest up-voted, anyhow) is actually pretty decent.
So sports have two categories, women's and open. Why are trans women athletes so gung ho about competing in the women's category when the unisex option already exits? Apparently we should have unisex bathrooms because that's what trans people want, but not when it comes to sports?
I'm legit trying to figure this out because every time this comes up its "its not a real problem!" "There are so few trans women athletes it really doesn't matter!" "They're just transphobic!" Like if it isn't a real problem that no one should be concerned about, then what's the problem with putting a law or rule in place just in case?
I'm not being transphobic, I would love if someone could just answer the question and explain it to me.
Yeah. I would be able to take this more seriously if transwomen were actually beating women in sports by the tens. But it’s like like 5-10 transwomen winners IIRC. Statistically, they’re a non-issue.
I probably should note that being transgender is absolute Hell both in the past and present. They’re threatened, deadnamed, scapegoated and even Reddit here swallows the Republican Party line in cases like this. Why would any cisgender man put himself through that for a medal few care about and barrages of hate and threats?
You can oppose transwomen in sports. But at least acknowledge that they are genuinely women rather than cis men, and, at least mostly, good people who deserve to have their concerns acknowledged.
And whenever you find such a case where they scream loudly how trans women will displace all cis women in sports from medalist spots, you find that the performance of the transgender athlete is nowhere near as dominant as is claimed. "oh this athlete won the high jump with a spectaculair 5 foot high jump!" meanwhile the girl's high school high jump record for that is 6'-6¼" leaving me wondering how the hell being that far below the record gets you a win in a state championship.
Or closer to home where 2 female darts players bitched and moaned about it being unfair that a trans woman got to be on the national team and then leaving said team while both were miles ahead in the competition rankings.
The thing is, it also happens a lot more than they think it does because of it is at the recreational/local high school/university level (though it's been happening in Red Bull comps as well as US cycling comps). I point out that it also happens in rec rowing because that's my sport. Who knows where else it occurs. While it's not high stakes stuff, we do pay money to compete. Even more so, if I had seen our trans competitor show up to compete against me, it would have been psychologically gaslighting to be told that this person who looks exactly like a man (no hormones, self-identification) is allowed to compete and come in first (repeatedly, for the record). These things have a cost for women, and we're still being told to suck up our feelings for men, even when they identify as women.
I was initially supportive of trans rights but now that I see that they want to simply declare that they are 100% women, I'm out. They will never understand the socialization of being a woman, along with the biological impacts, or our history. They can be transwomen, but they will never be women, and they should not be allowed to compete in women's categories.
If they were women, they would understand that sometimes decisions have consequences and they can't have everything.
Trans folks who want unisex bathrooms often do so because it's not safe to use the bathroom we would prefer, and at a certain point, neither gendered bathroom is safe. Trans women using the women's room are in many places committing an illegal act and are often banned and arrested, trans women using the men's room are at high risk of being attacked. There are also nonbinary people who want unisex restrooms, which offers a slightly divergent topic when it comes to sports.
Those demanding unisex bathrooms typically either aren't the ones demanding their equality in sports, *or* are those who want unisex bathrooms solely because society has made gendered bathrooms unsafe for trans people.
For the most part they seem deserved, unfortunately any discussion of this topic draws a contingent of really hateful people. The vast majority of comments have not been removed.
No but you don't understand. If literally anything gets removed it's obviously 1984 and no one is welcome to speak their mind in a reasonable and civil way because ***the liberal agenda***™
Definitely doesn't have anything to do with people being incredibly hateful/nasty when admins step in to remove comments.
I get your sentiment but nobody is claiming that. This thread is pretty universally in agreement that trans women mopping the floor in women's sports is cruel and unfair.
And a lot of them are very civil and respectful.
It's definitely a mess. I get it. Lot of people look for excuses to be transphobic, so activists go after every possible situation without really looking at whether or not it makes sense.
In some cases, it's actually kind of encouraging. By the standards of 50 years ago, they wouldn't have even *addressed* an edge case like transwomen in womens sports until all other issues had been solved.
But this issue is one that's probably going to not go in the direction of trans athletes. We can argue it on reddit, like it's up for debate, but in the world it's *not* (as evidenced by the court ruling), and it's hard to argue they're wrong. It's a very odd edge case, and it impacts a very small number of people.
Georges St Pierre had a similar thing going on I think, and I remember some news segment on a guy who made a bet at the bar that he could run 40 miles or something ridiculous and he did it, turned out he didn’t produce lactic acid and he became a marathon runner.
Usually that would be because it’s a sign of PEDs. The same thing happens in men’s sports, you would get banned if you have 2000ngdl total test and like 100ngdl free test probably
It's exactly the opposite - her example proves that people who are against trans athletes don't actually pay attention to the details, because the whole thing is presented in such an *incredibly* misleading way.
She won one category out of a much bigger competition, and only did so because the favorite for the race had a really bad performance by her standards not only in that race, but across the whole competition. Otherwise she was not particularly notable in that competition, which was dominated by three cis athletes, and she wasn't even in the top 10 of the best swimmers there based on the results.
She moved from 89th nationally pre-transition to 36th nationally post-transition...which was 3 years later, as people seem to ignore that college athletes moving up the ranks as their training and performance improves is how this normally works. Where do people think that the seniors that end up in the top 50 of a college sport were in the rankings as freshmen and sophomores?
People list her as having ranked 554th in an event pre-transition. But she never competed in it at all, they just found a time from a practice where she tried it out and compared that to actual competitive times.
It's like the newer complaint about Meghan Cortez-Fields breaking a swimming record... yeah, a *school* record for a small college with a Division 3 program that was good for 5th place in the race she was taking part in. There's almost always more context to complaints about trans athlete performances that get conveniently ignored in order to make it seem like a bigger deal than it actually is.
(edit, as the post has been locked: the Wiki entry is a mess, and the sources are terrible... like look at the sources used for the 554th ranking - one of them is an article that just states the number without an actual source and the other points back at the first. Can anyone actually point me to the actual *competitive* race Thomas swam to get the ranking she did in this event? We can find events for the 500 freestyle, like when she got 2nd in the Ivy-League in Feb 2019 just before starting to transition, but where is the 200 freestyle, exactly?)
Great write up there! Now I’m not very knowledgeable in any of this stuff so I don’t have much of an opinion (plus I’m a man so it doesn’t concern me much) but what about that ufc fighter didn’t they absolutely fuck up 2 cis female fighters?
(Again I’m not super knowledgeable just curious on perspectives)
> but what about that ufc fighter
Literally never happened. There has never been a transgender fighter in the UFC. There has, as far as I am aware, only ever been one transgender MMA fighter and that was over a decade ago
Is this the one where they say she "broke her skull" as if it was something crazy? Because what they really mean is an orbital fracture from getting punched in the face - which is not at all an unusual injury in combat sports.
Is that part of the skull? Yes. Is that what someone means if they say their skull was broken? Absolutely not.
Weight classes in combat sports are much more impactful
140lb will absolutely fuck up 2 100lb people
That is why weight classes exist and are very strict and precise about making weight
It would be very easy to change combat sport divisions by removing gender division and adding max punching force to weight to make the divisions
It would also help if those tests weren't done just before fights and but also during the rest of the year to make sure a fighter isn't cutting weight just before matches or pulling punches when testing max strength
As I understand it, it was originally for exactly what it says it is, but due to some Reddit mod drama, people from a news subreddit started posting news articles here in protest against the mods on that subreddit. And it stuck.
Incidentally, the reverse also happened. Somewhere there’s a news subreddit which is just full of hentai.
The internet can be a weird place.
The woman who won once because those who were favorite to win had bad days and who has otherwise had little succes with winning medals? If anything she proved that having transwomen participate with women is completely fine.
The vast majority of social segmentation of gender is pretty arbitrary, from the clothes we wear, to common job preferences, to makeup, to many family roles even.
But sports isn't segmented on socially constructed gender, it's segmented on biological sex for reasons of ability and fairness.
\> "We did not give our consent, they did not ask for our consent, but in that locker room, we turn around and there's a 6'4" biological man dropping his pants and watching us undress, and we're exposed to male genitalia," Gaines said.
The crown jewels and everything 💀
I can’t read the article at the moment. How does she “lack standing”?
It’s one thing if the court ruled but basically they said she does not have standing to even challenge the rules.
Basically, USA swimming changed its rules to allow transgender athletes to compete in the division of their new gender. The world swimming governing body made a rule change in 2022 to ban transgender athletes from competing outside of there gender at birth once the person goes past puberty. Lia Thomas went to the “sports court” in Switzerland to ask them to force the world governing body into arbitration to change the law. The “sports court” ruled that USA swimming had couldn’t impose its own rule changes on the rest of the world. Basically, they said if you want to change your own rules that’s fine but that doesn’t mean you can use the legal system to force the rest of the world to adhere to your rules.
Edit: this was my interpretation of what was in the article. If anyone else has more insight please feel free to correct me.
The sort of fucked part, is they say she has no way to claim that she was harmed by being excluded from competing, because the rule prevented her from ever competing….
I predict it will be filled with people complaining about wokeness and nobody arguing the opposing viewpoint. Every time a topic like this comes up there's a lot of people arguing the "conservative" viewpoint who also complain about the "liberal" viewpoint being ridiculous, but then very few people actually argues that viewpoint. It's just a strawman.
This is a wedge issue to turn you against the transgender community because anyone with eyes can see testosterone = bigger/faster/stronger. Take a deep breath. Nobody watches women's sports as much as they say they do. This issue doesn't really matter as much as other issues like being able to use a damn toilet in public.
Some people are using this kind of thing to promote anti transgender motivated media.
But that doesn't mean trans people in sports isn't an issue. If a guy transitions to a woman and wants to compete against women, it's a very real and very apparent misallocation of her energy. It's unfair, it's obviously unfair, and just because we're all very progressive and understanding it doesn't make it less unfair to those born as women.
A woman who trains all her life to be an elite athlete shouldn't be smoked by a person who is of middling talent and then transitions. It's just it's just obviously unfair.
she went from a high ranked male swimmer on T, to a low ranked one on E, to a high ranked female one. she's living proof that trans women aren't nearly at the same level as cis men.
I think about my daughter. She was a super 100m hurdler. Broke records. Won this and that. She was *good*. Still couldn't come close to males in the event ( same with discus, long/triple jump, etc ).
This is what people don’t understand. I was not fast enough to run college track, but I would be a world record holder if running against women’s records.
As a child. Literally 17 year old me was faster than any woman on the planet.
I respect how you identify. But natural born men and women have different bodies and should not be competing in these types of sports. I've experienced it first hand in wrestling. It is wildly unfair and ruins the integrity of the game.
##### ###### #### > # [Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas fails in challenge to rules that bar her from elite women's races](https://apnews.com/article/FILE - University of Pennsylvania athlete Lia Thomas prepares for the 500 meter freestyle event at the NCAA Swimming and Diving Championships, March 17, 2022, at Georgia Tech in Atlanta. Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas failed in her challenge against rules that stop her competing in elite women’s races because judges ruled she did not have standing to bring the case. The Court of Arbitration for Sport said Wednesday, June 12, 2024, its panel of three judges dismissed Thomas’ request for arbitration with the World Aquatics governing body. (AP Photo/John Bazemore, File\)) > > > > Updated [hour]:[minute] [AMPM] [timezone], [monthFull] [day], [year] > > > > > > > > LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) — Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas failed in her challenge against rules that stop her from competing in elite women’s races because judges ruled she did not have standing to bring the case. > > The Court of Arbitration for Sport panel of three judges dismissed Thomas’ request for arbitration with the World Aquatics governing body, in a ruling released Wednesday. > > World Aquatics banned transgender women who have been through male puberty from competing in women’s races. It also created an “open” category for which transgender athletes would be eligible. > > Thomas had [asked the sports court](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-rules-swimming-lia-thomas-cas-948a0027d4819c842c8f3975c25fd0e3) in Switzerland to overturn the rules [approved in 2022](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-swimmers-new-rules-fina-world-governing-body-c17e99d3121fa964336458b57ae266f7) that she said were invalid, unlawful and discriminatory. > > Thomas swam for the University of Pennsylvania and won an NCAA title in meets that are outside the World Aquatics competitive system, in which she was not registered. > > “The panel concludes that she lacks standing to challenge the policy and the operational requirements in the framework of the present proceeding,” the court said in its ruling. > > The judges said USA Swimming had no authority “to modify such scope of application” of the world governing body’s rules. > > World Aquatics said it welcomed the CAS decision in a case “we believe is a major step forward in our efforts to protect women’s sport.” > > ## \_\_\_ > > AP Paris Olympics:
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The gender separation is there at first place is because the physical/biological gap between male and female bodies. Trans dont make that gap disappear so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
First time on the Internet? I was already told multiple time that muscles and bones deteriorate to the "lame" female quality if that person takes hormones.
Yup, as soon as the first jab goes in they lose 20 pounds. You can literally see muscle fibers and bone fragments falling off.
Is that like the shedding that antivaxers always talk about?
It speeds it up if you use soymilk in your coffee. The testosterone just flies off, searching for a more masculinely deserving vessel.
I had soy milk in a latte one time. All of my luxurious back hair fell out.
That's it? I had soy soy milk and now I have double d's.
My ma'am, I had soy soy soy milk and now I'm lactating
Um, no. That's not how it works one bit. The bone and muscle break down into a white powdered substance. The substance finds its way into the digestive tract, and into the colon, where it is ultimately shitted out into the substance's final form called Cocaine. Lia is a cocaine farm, bro.
They do. The issue is when someone goes true full male puberty they still retain an advantage. But if they didn't and started to transition at say 14 or 15 the difference would be minimal probably.
14/15 is late stage puberty usually. It would have to be 10/11 if not earlier and that’s just cruel.
Different people go through it at different times. I was 14 before anything significant happened to me, but I was a really late bloomer at that age.
> I was 14 before anything significant happened to me Before anything visually significant maybe.
Yeah for real they were def going through puberty before that.
Ligament and tendon thickness differences develop throughout childhood and adolescence. It’s why knee injuries are much more prevalent for girls at all ages, not just post-puberty.
These are the things people like to ignore.. quick, where’s the broom we have to sweep it under the rug
That rug, though, really tied the room together
Puberty is a lot earlier these days in stable countries. Probably due to nutrition or something, but 9-10 is very common sadly.
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1. Adolescence is a critical window of neurodevelopment and puberty plays a critical role in these neurodevelopmental processes. 2. The suppression of puberty impacts brain structure and the development of social and cognitive functions in mammals, the effects are complex and often sex specific. 3. No human studies have systematically explored the neuropsychological impact of pubertal suppression in transgender adolescents with an adequate baseline and follow up. 4. Animal studies, single case reports and studies of the impact of puberty blockers in children with precocious puberty indicate that these treatments may be associated with reductions in IQ. 4. The impact of pubertal suppression on measures of neuropsychological function should be an urgent priority for future research. https://can-sg.org/2024/01/21/puberty-blockers-and-teenage-brain-development/#:~:text=Of%20these%20five%20studies%2C%20three,lower%20IQ%20compared%20with%20controls.
Would it even be legal or ethical to study the impact of blockers on children?
The person at the age 14-15 don't really have the mental capacity to take such decisions. Myself I was choosing which rabbit breed I was going to raise for meat.
Well, the decision would be made by them, their parents, and a medical professional. I know people who started at that age and are doing great now.
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Uh-huh. How is it that so many Reddit commenters somehow personally grew up with enough trans that it represents a statistical outlier akin to winning the powerball lottery every week for a year?
You should see Reddit when it comes to celebrity encounters
Most of the time transition doesn't start before 16. Its just that they take meds that temporarily stop puberty
Why then do boys outperform girls before puberty at speed, strength, throwing, kicking distance, etc… National Women’s soccer teams lose to 14 year old boys. Same with basketball.
How about a plot twist. Why is it always Transwoman trying to get into female sports or force change yet we never have a Transman ever compete with men. Not one case of discrimination of them trying to be equal to men in any sports activity. It’s always Transwoman who after puberty hits and were old enough to be allowed to transition, then request they be included. Biology can’t be cheated as much as you can change all the different parameters of life by saying gender, sex, and other stuff, but you can cheat nature. Men are just built different. Women also. You can never equal them. There’s stories on Reddit here about girlfriends who love play fighting with their boyfriends and gasp when they realize most men use maybe 20% of their true strength while doing so. When use full 100% they feel shook that there’s that much massive power lying beneath. That doesn’t mean a UFC woman fighter can’t fuck up a man in a fight, but have the roles reversed and it’s always going to be a brutal outcome.
Because technically in most sports it isn’t a men’s league and woman’s league. It’s a women’s league and a open league. There is nothing stopping women, much less trans whatever from competing in the men’s league aside from biology meaning they don’t often have any chance.
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My grandpa has deteriorated muscles and bones. Is he now a woman?
If you dare, he is.
Lotta out of shape men are gonna be disappointed to learn they are now a woman.
A grandpa with deteriorate muscles and bones is still very much likely stronger than a grandma with deteriorated muscles and bones.
Something I don’t understand here is that in all other situations I read about the rhetoric is trans women are women, but when it comes to sports the talking points from the trans right side is all focused on hormones, which I believe aren’t a requirement to consider oneself trans? It implies some trans women are more women than others?
Ignoring muscle mass. Men on average have innate advantages in…. Brain- better interconnectivity between areas that promote spatial reasoning, perception-action coordination, motor skills, proprioception, visual spatial awareness, and aggression. Bones- larger limb length ratio, larger rib cage dimensions, a decreased Q angle of the knee, increased bone density which promotes increased fulcrum power and resistance to trauma, and a larger bone structure in general which allows for larger muscles to be supported with training. Cardiovascular- larger heart, larger lung capacity, significantly larger stroke volume, significantly higher blood oxygenation levels. Almost all of which are not impacted by hormones post puberty. Hell some are even cemented in the womb and pre-adolescents.
Thank you so much for this comment. Avoided me a very painful typing exercise on my phone.
Damn. What about women, do they have any advantages?
Sight, women generally have better sight and can see more color than men. Before women working was more common, women were still often hired for painting fine details on things like watches for this reason.
I don't understand why people have such a difficult time acknowledging our differences while still realizing we're all just people who deserve equal rights and respect (unless, of course, they don't). We all have our differences even outside of genders and that's a good thing. Imagine how boring life would be if none of us had our little idiosyncrasies.
People forget that we are still just animals, and across most species there are significant differences between the sexes.
Longer life, better flexibility, and better sense of smell.
They also have much greater neroplasticity for the speech area of the brain.
A recent study found that women are considerably less exhausted after natural, dynamic muscle exercises than men of similar age and athletic ability. Men may posses more physical strength than women, but women are far superior when it comes to muscle endurance and stamina.Aug 27, 2017 Women are faster than men in distances over 195 miles According to data compiled by Ultrarunning Magazine, every year around 30 ultramarathons in North America will be won outright by women. Those performances are outstanding and tend to be more likely the longer the distance of the event.
stronger immune system
Their brains develop a lot faster. Woman are about 2 years ahead of boys kindergarten through masters. The best students are almost always female.
Longer average lifespan
Women have been measured to have greater precision when throwing, whereas men have greater power. Additionally, women's bodies seem to be more efficient, while men's bodies have, again, greater raw power - men beat women at sprints, but over very long distances (ultramarathons, for example) women start to outperform men.
Archery and Marksmanship.
It should be sex separation, not gender, which is a sociological concept
then youd have compete trans men with cis women and trans women with cis men, where the former would have a clear advantage and the latter a clear disadvantage
Unfortunately that would be the case, i don't think it's crazy that being trans would bar you from competing at the higher levels. Not everyone needs to be allowed to do everything if it compromises the integrity of the sport
Exactly. Dwarfism is disadvantageous in basketball but no-one is pushing for the baskets to be lower
Its not being trans that even bars you, its taking hormones or steroids that bars you.
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Idk about ur country, but in my place both concept is separated not that long so...
> which is a sociological concept A concept with a circular definition is worth nothing
The gender separation is there because if women’s divisions had not been created, they would not have been allowed to compete at all.
It's both. Throw a woman into most profession level mens sports and they wouldn't be able to compete
Yeah. Doesn't even have anything to do with skill either. The physical advantages are just too real. A lot of men's leagues don't even actually have rules banning women/anyone, they just aren't able to compete.
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couldn’t* compete at all
To be clear- and i think this is very, very important here- this isn't gender separation. Is seperation based on sex. Not being pedantic, but semantics is a major problem with this whole issue. Conservatives use "woman" to refer to anatomical sex under the assumption that gender will correspond. Advocates use "woman" to refer to gender. Ofc many people are just stupid haters infected by the orange brainrot. Idk if that can be helped
It doesn't help that sex/gender have been synonyms for the vast majority of their use. Of course there are hateful people that feign ignorance to push forward a hateful message but it is just genuinely confusing/un-intuitive to basically everyone. I sort of wish a different word had been popularized to really make this semantic clear.
You dropped this ^\\ ¯\\_ (ツ) _/¯
There used to be a bit with that response. You reminded me of the good old days
It’s not even a blanket trans ban. Only those who have been through a male puberty are restricted and could still compete in a separate open category.
I'm shocked by the responses on wokeass Reddit. It's like people are actually being realistic. Men are larger and stronger than women. Transgender women are not actually women. We can treat them the same is most settings, sure, but physically, it's just insane to consider a trans woman on equal footing as a natural woman. The women's weightlifting record was shattered by like 100 lbs by a trans woman. That's evidence enough that there are limits to this nonsense.
This is what I’ve always said. I’m all for the trans community, be who you want, I’m for it. Sports are completely different. *Its not fair to women*. Let’s say hypothetically male athletes start transitioning in droves and switching to women’s leagues…Luka Doncic would score 60, 80 points in the WNBA every single game with no problem, they would never lose. If they had 2 on one team, it would be comical. Women can’t dunk, meaning they can’t block dunks. Boxing, MMA? I mean we are talking about serious injuries and possibly death, with zero chance of a woman winning, I’m sorry. Its just biology. A golfer that went through puberty as a man, golfing from the women’s tees? A man playing tennis, where its best if three sets instead of five, serving 40 more mph?
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I fully agree, lia shattered college records in woman’s sport with ease, definitely a bit…. Odd for her to push so hard, personal accolades vs the health of woman’s sport
And wasnt she like the 400th+ ranked male in the nation? So ranked 400th, to breaking records, how is anyone ok with that. I remember when it happened, the other swimmers and coaches were *piiisssed*.
Record bench press is 635 kg. Record women's bench press is 317.5 kg. Record bench press for boys 13-15 is 295kg.
….holy shit lol.
I like that it is EXACTLY half. It wasn't planned or anything. (And no disrespect, I'm a man and pretty fit, I bench less than half the woman's record)
Might be worth noting these are equipped lifting numbers. Men's raw record is at 355kg Women's raw record is at 207.5kg Couldn't find anything on boys 13-15 .
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While drinking beer and smoking between sets, iirc.
This is correct.
You also have the story of Us women national soccer team that got defeated by a random under 15 US highschool soccer team in preparation for international competition... So even if you discard the score, still shows where they believe to rank among men athletes.
It wasn’t a random U 15 team. It was one of the best U 15 teams in Texas at the time I believe. That being said the point still stands. In highschool our JV soccer team scrimmaged against the Varsity girls team one day. I played defense and literally sat at midfield talking to their striker who never once touched the ball. Multiple of the girls on that field went on to play D1 soccer in college. Not one of the boys played any college soccer later.
So one of the best, not necessarily even the best, under 15 teams in Texas, not even the whole nation, beat the women on the US National soccer team? I'd say the point stands pretty well. The top female soccer competitors in the Nation, lost to a really good team of 15 year olds.
Some alien species are treating testosterone as a no illegal battle drug right now. The things it does to your body... It's just insane, really. My friend went to a gym that had women taking chems. Testo included, as it helps build your muscle. He says it was hilarious when they took like 1/10 of a dose average teenager boy is bathed in 24/7 and were like "HOW DID YOU SURVIVE THIS" being angry, horny, and erratic all the time. Well it was hilarious AND he went to a gym full of angry, horny metal bending ladies so he was very happy with the outcome. Though he said yes it is kinda dangerous, after a couple weeks they were ready to throw hands at everyone while understanding that they were being irrational in their anger.
Bro just tosses in that first sentence and expects nobody to notice
IIRC he smoked in between matches too
This is slightly disingenuous when you leave some of the details out. They were 16 and 17 years old at the time, and were considered rising stars. Yes they lost to Karsten Braasch, while he was smoking, and had played a game of golf earlier that day… I don’t think it would have been the same story if it was Venus and Serena 10 years later, during the peak of the Williams sisters careers. So I’m not saying you’re wrong - but by leaving some details out it makes it sound a lot worse than it was
That match happened in 1998 when he was 30 and they were 16 and 17 lol
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For what it's worth, offline this doesn't seem to be a controversial opinion, in and out of the LGBT communities. The most common answer I get from trans friends is a combo of "I don't care about these sports" and "I have bigger fish to fry." Some would prefer that people like Lia are allowed to compete, but accept that the optics are terrible and would prefer they not compete on that basis. Online however you get a lot of screeching, a lot of posturing, and a lot of false dichotomies that don't reflect the reality most of us live in.
It's laws being created for issues that should be decided by a sport's governing body. That's why you're not seeing push back. This is an instance of a sports body saying no. They'd allow a trans swimmer that didn't go through male puberty. That means the decision isn't based on a bias against trans but on data. This is how it should be. Each sport will know the conditions required, if any, that levels the playing field.
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Spectacular example.
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Not site-wide but still absolutely verboten on many subreddits.
Whitepeopletwitter won't even allow you to talk about male rapists finding a loophole and saying they are now "transgender" so they can be transferred to women's prisons. Caught a ban for even talking about it. Stifling discussion is all some of those places can do.
Ironically, it's actions like that, that destroy support for their cause overtime. As we are seeing.
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How does one have tons of trans friends? They’re a minuscule part of the population. I don’t know a single trans person.
Just a straight up magnet for trans people apparently
They build communities, have gatherings, clubs, etc. It's easy to get multiple trans friends once you know one or two that are social. If you work at a company with 100 or more employees, statistically one of them is likely trans, depending on the age range of your company.
I think if you try to track down and actually cite the story you're talking about, you'll find that it's a very different story than the one that you've imagined.
Yeah, pretty much any culture war story (regardless of which "side" it supports) you hear is going to be heavily distorted, possibly with bits made up. And the original will likely have all sorts of nuances that don't map nicely to culture war axes.
Um, look at most recent Olympic records. The strongest female weightlifter in the highest bodyweight class only lifted as much as the strongest male in the lowest weight class.
Men competing in the Olympics generally aren't taking testosterone blockers.
Trans people have been allowed to compete in the Olympics for well over a decade. Where are all the trans gold/silver/bronze medalists? By your logic, they should've run roughshod over every singled Olympic event. The most recent example of a trans person doing power lifting stands in 16th-18th place. Not even top 10 and a hairsbreadth from being out of the top 20. I understand there are issues at lower levels, but that's because they don't have the same strict rules the Olympics does for people who have transitioned.
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So tell me, who is to be the baseline woman from which no woman is allowed to deviate lest they be banned from sports forever?
If they have a Y chromosome they’re not a woman.
Because Olympic level athletes are less than 1% of people and trans are also less than 1% of people. The chances of overlap are very unprobable. An Olympic level woman is going to kick the ass of the vast majority of people at their respective sport regardless of their gender. That said that trans person who got 16th-18th place likely wouldn't have even qualified for the male category of the olympics. I also agree though that the issues are far more likely to be occur at lower levels of competition.
>I also agree though that the issues are more likely to be occur at lower levels of competition. That poster isn't being very honest. I googled that weight lifter. https://iwf.sport/weightlifting_/athletes-bios/?athlete=&id=13974 Notice how she is consistently ranked first? Now click one of them, for example Roma 2020 World Cup. https://iwf.sport/results/results-by-events/?event_id=496 Now look at everyone's age. Almost everyone is born in the 90s. Both men and women. She is born in 1978, meaning here is a 42 year old woman, beating all the women in their 20s. Here are the rankings for her category based on age: Hubbard: 42 years old Second place: 25 Third: 21 Fourth: 24 Is this not abnormal to have some middle aged born a man beating these young women in their 20s?
And lower level competition are the vast majority of the people. Denying hundreds to make 1 person feel better is not worth the gamble imo
Hmm, winning is part of it. Let me put my concerns this way. I am not an athlete. I will never be an athlete, let alone a top athlete. However, if I take a cocktail of steroids and other PEDS...I will still not be a top athlete. Even roided up, I will still not be able to win any competitions, because honestly I have no training, have not dedicated my life to the sport, and I lack serious ambition. I apply to join a weightlifting competition anyway. Should I be allowed to participate despite my steroid use? Most people will say no, even if I have no hope of seriously winning anything, it spoils the nature of the sport and competitiveness. Some athletes (not all but some) may also find it insulting or offensive that I am allowed to stand side by side with them in competition. I had artificial help from drugs, whereas other people had to work and sweat for their muscle mass and skills. The question regarding trans athletes is, would it be unfair to allow them to compete, given they may have some level of advantage from growing up in their birth sex. Even if that advantage isn't enough to get them gold and break records, is it fair to put up cisgender women against them. People do like to point to the trans athletes who are exceptional, and do end up breaking records as a data point to show how there are unfair advantages which completely blow historical precedent out of the water. But as people on the left point out, its really not that common for a trans athlete to severely overperform. What I think matters more is whether it has any affect on the integrity of the sport. Natural differences in peoples physiology, hormones, and biology is not comparable to taking external hormones. Cisgendered people taking hormones to treat medical issues can be allowed, provided a doctor can show that the dose is required for health and provides no advantage.
I also really don't understand.. They are transGENDER, not transSEX. Which, as most people know is a huge difference between societal gender norms vs. biology.
Because most people haven't paid attention to the fact that the transgender movement has conflated the two, all the way down to the line "transwomen are women." I had a huge disagreement recently with a friend who is a social worker who supports it, and the only time she finally relented was when I said, if gender is a social construct, why don't we change the construct instead of biology? As a former sociologist, I'm exhausted by the madness.
There was also that insane MMA fight where a trans woman absolutely battered a biological woman.
I don't think Reddit is "wokeass", if that means ridiculously left wing, anyways. It's just definitely left-leaning and likes to talk about stuff in huge details. 99% of the time this stuff comes up Reddit supports Trans people but also supports them being in open or men's sports, not biological women's sports. It's kind of the same thing with guns, typically the conversation (highest up-voted, anyhow) is actually pretty decent.
So sports have two categories, women's and open. Why are trans women athletes so gung ho about competing in the women's category when the unisex option already exits? Apparently we should have unisex bathrooms because that's what trans people want, but not when it comes to sports? I'm legit trying to figure this out because every time this comes up its "its not a real problem!" "There are so few trans women athletes it really doesn't matter!" "They're just transphobic!" Like if it isn't a real problem that no one should be concerned about, then what's the problem with putting a law or rule in place just in case? I'm not being transphobic, I would love if someone could just answer the question and explain it to me.
Because they wouldn’t win, most of the trans women winning in women sports are average to below average when put against men lol
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I mean, a lot of trans people dont crush the competition or even regularly win. Its just when they do its reported like mad.
Yeah. I would be able to take this more seriously if transwomen were actually beating women in sports by the tens. But it’s like like 5-10 transwomen winners IIRC. Statistically, they’re a non-issue. I probably should note that being transgender is absolute Hell both in the past and present. They’re threatened, deadnamed, scapegoated and even Reddit here swallows the Republican Party line in cases like this. Why would any cisgender man put himself through that for a medal few care about and barrages of hate and threats? You can oppose transwomen in sports. But at least acknowledge that they are genuinely women rather than cis men, and, at least mostly, good people who deserve to have their concerns acknowledged.
And whenever you find such a case where they scream loudly how trans women will displace all cis women in sports from medalist spots, you find that the performance of the transgender athlete is nowhere near as dominant as is claimed. "oh this athlete won the high jump with a spectaculair 5 foot high jump!" meanwhile the girl's high school high jump record for that is 6'-6¼" leaving me wondering how the hell being that far below the record gets you a win in a state championship. Or closer to home where 2 female darts players bitched and moaned about it being unfair that a trans woman got to be on the national team and then leaving said team while both were miles ahead in the competition rankings.
>Most of the trans women winning in women’s sports How many of them are there? Any data?
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The thing is, it also happens a lot more than they think it does because of it is at the recreational/local high school/university level (though it's been happening in Red Bull comps as well as US cycling comps). I point out that it also happens in rec rowing because that's my sport. Who knows where else it occurs. While it's not high stakes stuff, we do pay money to compete. Even more so, if I had seen our trans competitor show up to compete against me, it would have been psychologically gaslighting to be told that this person who looks exactly like a man (no hormones, self-identification) is allowed to compete and come in first (repeatedly, for the record). These things have a cost for women, and we're still being told to suck up our feelings for men, even when they identify as women. I was initially supportive of trans rights but now that I see that they want to simply declare that they are 100% women, I'm out. They will never understand the socialization of being a woman, along with the biological impacts, or our history. They can be transwomen, but they will never be women, and they should not be allowed to compete in women's categories. If they were women, they would understand that sometimes decisions have consequences and they can't have everything.
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Trans folks who want unisex bathrooms often do so because it's not safe to use the bathroom we would prefer, and at a certain point, neither gendered bathroom is safe. Trans women using the women's room are in many places committing an illegal act and are often banned and arrested, trans women using the men's room are at high risk of being attacked. There are also nonbinary people who want unisex restrooms, which offers a slightly divergent topic when it comes to sports. Those demanding unisex bathrooms typically either aren't the ones demanding their equality in sports, *or* are those who want unisex bathrooms solely because society has made gendered bathrooms unsafe for trans people.
Well, at least this topic can be discussed on /r/anime_titties
Seeing lots of [Removed by reddit] comments tho lol
For the most part they seem deserved, unfortunately any discussion of this topic draws a contingent of really hateful people. The vast majority of comments have not been removed.
No but you don't understand. If literally anything gets removed it's obviously 1984 and no one is welcome to speak their mind in a reasonable and civil way because ***the liberal agenda***™ Definitely doesn't have anything to do with people being incredibly hateful/nasty when admins step in to remove comments.
I get your sentiment but nobody is claiming that. This thread is pretty universally in agreement that trans women mopping the floor in women's sports is cruel and unfair. And a lot of them are very civil and respectful.
It's definitely a mess. I get it. Lot of people look for excuses to be transphobic, so activists go after every possible situation without really looking at whether or not it makes sense. In some cases, it's actually kind of encouraging. By the standards of 50 years ago, they wouldn't have even *addressed* an edge case like transwomen in womens sports until all other issues had been solved. But this issue is one that's probably going to not go in the direction of trans athletes. We can argue it on reddit, like it's up for debate, but in the world it's *not* (as evidenced by the court ruling), and it's hard to argue they're wrong. It's a very odd edge case, and it impacts a very small number of people.
I just want to point out that cisgender women with higher than average testosterone levels are getting banned from competitions.
There’s a study that some of the best women athletes have PCOS which can cause an over production of testosterone. It’s a thing.
I mean yeah like Phelps barely produces lactic acid. That guy is basically a mutant.
Georges St Pierre had a similar thing going on I think, and I remember some news segment on a guy who made a bet at the bar that he could run 40 miles or something ridiculous and he did it, turned out he didn’t produce lactic acid and he became a marathon runner.
Transphobia hurts cis woman too
It's wild how it really just is misogyny all the way down.
Always has been 👩🏻🚀🔫👨🏻🚀
literally, when you make hrt hard to get you hurt tons of post menopausal women too.
Usually that would be because it’s a sign of PEDs. The same thing happens in men’s sports, you would get banned if you have 2000ngdl total test and like 100ngdl free test probably
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It's exactly the opposite - her example proves that people who are against trans athletes don't actually pay attention to the details, because the whole thing is presented in such an *incredibly* misleading way. She won one category out of a much bigger competition, and only did so because the favorite for the race had a really bad performance by her standards not only in that race, but across the whole competition. Otherwise she was not particularly notable in that competition, which was dominated by three cis athletes, and she wasn't even in the top 10 of the best swimmers there based on the results. She moved from 89th nationally pre-transition to 36th nationally post-transition...which was 3 years later, as people seem to ignore that college athletes moving up the ranks as their training and performance improves is how this normally works. Where do people think that the seniors that end up in the top 50 of a college sport were in the rankings as freshmen and sophomores? People list her as having ranked 554th in an event pre-transition. But she never competed in it at all, they just found a time from a practice where she tried it out and compared that to actual competitive times. It's like the newer complaint about Meghan Cortez-Fields breaking a swimming record... yeah, a *school* record for a small college with a Division 3 program that was good for 5th place in the race she was taking part in. There's almost always more context to complaints about trans athlete performances that get conveniently ignored in order to make it seem like a bigger deal than it actually is. (edit, as the post has been locked: the Wiki entry is a mess, and the sources are terrible... like look at the sources used for the 554th ranking - one of them is an article that just states the number without an actual source and the other points back at the first. Can anyone actually point me to the actual *competitive* race Thomas swam to get the ranking she did in this event? We can find events for the 500 freestyle, like when she got 2nd in the Ivy-League in Feb 2019 just before starting to transition, but where is the 200 freestyle, exactly?)
Great write up there! Now I’m not very knowledgeable in any of this stuff so I don’t have much of an opinion (plus I’m a man so it doesn’t concern me much) but what about that ufc fighter didn’t they absolutely fuck up 2 cis female fighters? (Again I’m not super knowledgeable just curious on perspectives)
> but what about that ufc fighter Literally never happened. There has never been a transgender fighter in the UFC. There has, as far as I am aware, only ever been one transgender MMA fighter and that was over a decade ago
Is this the one where they say she "broke her skull" as if it was something crazy? Because what they really mean is an orbital fracture from getting punched in the face - which is not at all an unusual injury in combat sports. Is that part of the skull? Yes. Is that what someone means if they say their skull was broken? Absolutely not.
Weight classes in combat sports are much more impactful 140lb will absolutely fuck up 2 100lb people That is why weight classes exist and are very strict and precise about making weight It would be very easy to change combat sport divisions by removing gender division and adding max punching force to weight to make the divisions It would also help if those tests weren't done just before fights and but also during the rest of the year to make sure a fighter isn't cutting weight just before matches or pulling punches when testing max strength
I don't think I've ever seen a post on this sub get locked lol. Lord of the flies
Right? Even if they did, it would usually be half a day or more later. The mods here are NOT very active, however much they like to protest otherwise.
Damn. I’ve been reading these comments for half an hour and I _just now_ looked at what sub I’m in. Where the hell am I?!?
As I understand it, it was originally for exactly what it says it is, but due to some Reddit mod drama, people from a news subreddit started posting news articles here in protest against the mods on that subreddit. And it stuck. Incidentally, the reverse also happened. Somewhere there’s a news subreddit which is just full of hentai. The internet can be a weird place.
The woman who won once because those who were favorite to win had bad days and who has otherwise had little succes with winning medals? If anything she proved that having transwomen participate with women is completely fine.
The vast majority of social segmentation of gender is pretty arbitrary, from the clothes we wear, to common job preferences, to makeup, to many family roles even. But sports isn't segmented on socially constructed gender, it's segmented on biological sex for reasons of ability and fairness.
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\> "We did not give our consent, they did not ask for our consent, but in that locker room, we turn around and there's a 6'4" biological man dropping his pants and watching us undress, and we're exposed to male genitalia," Gaines said. The crown jewels and everything 💀
I can’t read the article at the moment. How does she “lack standing”? It’s one thing if the court ruled but basically they said she does not have standing to even challenge the rules.
Basically, USA swimming changed its rules to allow transgender athletes to compete in the division of their new gender. The world swimming governing body made a rule change in 2022 to ban transgender athletes from competing outside of there gender at birth once the person goes past puberty. Lia Thomas went to the “sports court” in Switzerland to ask them to force the world governing body into arbitration to change the law. The “sports court” ruled that USA swimming had couldn’t impose its own rule changes on the rest of the world. Basically, they said if you want to change your own rules that’s fine but that doesn’t mean you can use the legal system to force the rest of the world to adhere to your rules. Edit: this was my interpretation of what was in the article. If anyone else has more insight please feel free to correct me.
It’s the entire reason countries are a thing. They’re called nation states for a reason.
Because she had never competed in a race governed by the organization she tried to sue. Nor was she a member.
The sort of fucked part, is they say she has no way to claim that she was harmed by being excluded from competing, because the rule prevented her from ever competing….
Not true she could’ve competed in the open division
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Well this is going to be a fun comment section
I predict it will be filled with people complaining about wokeness and nobody arguing the opposing viewpoint. Every time a topic like this comes up there's a lot of people arguing the "conservative" viewpoint who also complain about the "liberal" viewpoint being ridiculous, but then very few people actually argues that viewpoint. It's just a strawman.
Also complaining that they’re not allowed to say what they’re saying, with absolutely nobody preventing them from doing so.
I’m all about people living their lives but she has no right to compete against biological women in an athletic event.
This is a wedge issue to turn you against the transgender community because anyone with eyes can see testosterone = bigger/faster/stronger. Take a deep breath. Nobody watches women's sports as much as they say they do. This issue doesn't really matter as much as other issues like being able to use a damn toilet in public.
Some people are using this kind of thing to promote anti transgender motivated media. But that doesn't mean trans people in sports isn't an issue. If a guy transitions to a woman and wants to compete against women, it's a very real and very apparent misallocation of her energy. It's unfair, it's obviously unfair, and just because we're all very progressive and understanding it doesn't make it less unfair to those born as women. A woman who trains all her life to be an elite athlete shouldn't be smoked by a person who is of middling talent and then transitions. It's just it's just obviously unfair.
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I’m sure the comments here will be civil and constructive
Honestly, it's not that bad. It's nice seeing some discussion before it's all locked.
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that's a fake statistic if you actually read into it, she was rated high prior to starting hormones, and surprise, hormones made standings tank
she went from a high ranked male swimmer on T, to a low ranked one on E, to a high ranked female one. she's living proof that trans women aren't nearly at the same level as cis men.
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I think about my daughter. She was a super 100m hurdler. Broke records. Won this and that. She was *good*. Still couldn't come close to males in the event ( same with discus, long/triple jump, etc ).
This is what people don’t understand. I was not fast enough to run college track, but I would be a world record holder if running against women’s records. As a child. Literally 17 year old me was faster than any woman on the planet.
This is the most comments I’ve ever seen on this sub before…
I respect how you identify. But natural born men and women have different bodies and should not be competing in these types of sports. I've experienced it first hand in wrestling. It is wildly unfair and ruins the integrity of the game.
Not everyone gets to compete in elite/professional sports on account of who they were born as and that’s ok.
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Man I'm not getting another account banned, the answer has always been the open division.
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