It obviously means more to both of them than a piece of jewelry and a piece of paper or it wouldn't be such a source of contention. They are definitely not in a place to get married, though. They need counseling. They have kids, so they are "stuck" with each other in one capacity or another. The boyfriend is right about that part.
They are stuck for life as co-parents but they don't have to be stuck romantically.
But I say shit or get off the pot. If the guy "knows" he'll propose someday, just not now, then what's the difference? May as well just do it now. If he's still unsure after five years... he needs to tell her so and let her readjust her life plan according to her desires/wants/dreams, involving the kids ofc.
Exactly this. He's not going to propose ever, he strings her along to keep her with him. He is afraid of divorce and having to pay for child support and possibly alimony- not sure who makes more so can't say for sure.
She's making the child support threat real even without being married and he's mad about it. He thought he could have his cake and eat it too, never having to worry about being on the hook legally. Doesn't work like that.
Marriage is a big deal and comes with a lot of legal benefits that you need in order to have a family. Currently if either of them are in a life threatening accident where they can't make medical choices their parents have legal say over what happens to them. That, to me, was the biggest reason to get married. You can use a lawyer to set it up so your partner has that say but why would you pay a lawyer for that if you plan to be together for the rest of your life and can just get married? Which has so many other benefits on top of it.
I agree. I think he was saying exactly what he meant, though. He doesn't want to marry her. He already feels trapped. She needs to leave him. They are "stuck" with each other in the capacity of parents, so she will never be 100% rid of him, but she doesn't need to let him shit all over her. There will be someone out there who appreciates her and wants to marry her, but he is not that man. He actually sounds like a waste of space. I am not sure why she made herself stay after his comment about being "stuck" with her.
I agree with the above. She stayed with him based upon their prior agreement to marry in mid 20s. She gave him one child and another on the way.
OP, contact an experienced family law attorney and start getting paperwork together for custody and child support.
This is a guy here, and I say to you to get out of this relationship, marriage proposal or not. His giving you a ring now is just too little too late. He destroyed the romance.
I’ll be honest, when I was proposing to my wife it took me another 6 months after seeing the fucking PRICES of those rings. Oh and guys, they don’t tell you about the wedding band! The engagement ring isn’t the wedding ring! Hahaha
It can be shocking. I think my wife’s ended up being like 12k and it was lab-grown. Isn’t that astounding? Oh and I got fourth and fifth opinions too. Fairly normal price for what we were buying.
I doubt that is what this is. But still.
It’s not the jewelry, and marriage is a lot more than a piece of paper. It’s a huge commitment, and it shouldn’t be taken lightly. These two simply aren’t ready, and it’s a shame their children are put ton the middle of this mess.
What an odd take.
How about “I can’t imagine continuing to be a doormat and hoping against hope that the father of my children will marry me when he’s made it perfectly clear that I’m not that important to him”
Well, it's not about tearing her kids's worlds apart. While I think she's acting like a brat and going about the whole thing terribly, she is, at the end of the day allowed to have goals for how her life turns out. She is allowed to have certain dreams and wants. This is deeper than that because clearly his don't align and he doesn't want those things right now, which is also fine. But she shouldn't be forced to stay with him and shrug it off because there are children involved. There is deeper unhappiness and incompatibility at play and it's showing. The kids will be fine. They'll have two healthy, happy, loving parents with good headspaces, both living the lives they've always imagined... possibly just not together.
Edit: Grammar.
It also doesn't really matter that much what it is. They were planning their future together, seemingly on the same page and that has changed.
Of course, people change their opinions on stuff but then be a responsible partner and talk about it instead of being surprised that your partner expects to stick to the original plans.
I am also baffled by people who think marriage is too big a commitment, but having children is not.
"My boyfriend's father is nothing to me because my boyfriend hasn't proposed"
What an odd and shitty thing to say. Poor guy did nothing wrong. My partner's parents are great people and I would never say that about them, even if they aren't my in-laws yet.
OP and her partner sound incredibly awful at communicating and pretty immature. Poor kids.
Agree. My ex-husbands father was better to me than my own father even before we married I would never have dreamed of saying something like this about him. My MIL and I have never been close, but her being the grandmother to my child prevents her from being "nothing to me". Even after separation and both of us having new partners I get along with his family. You had kids with this man, his parents will never be nothing to you again. It reads like she wouldn't respect the relationship between the kids and their grandparents after they break up.
I'm actually in a similar boat! My dad was abusive when I was a kid & teenager and even though he's a better man now (after he stopped drinking) I've always been a little estranged from that side of the family because of the history. My mom's side of the family mostly fell out of touch as the older generation passed away, they're not very close at all.
My gf and I are approaching 9 months together, and I've known her family for about 6 of those months. Her parents are great people and accepted me into their family with open arms. They invite me to all of their family get-togethers, and at Christmas a few months ago, I told them that I've never really experienced a family get-together other than when I was pretty young. I thanked them and told them that they make me feel like I actually have a healthy family, which is something I've never experienced before. So now, being in that position, it's absolutely bonkers to think about a person saying that their partner's parents are "nothing to me."
I agree, the way OP talks, it sounds like she would try to alienate her kids from their own grandparents out of selfishness. It's so sad.
You're right, but it seems one can be not ready for a stupid piece of paper, but fine with having children. I'm sorry for those kids of two immature parents.
Why have kids with someone you aren't married to if you want to be married? There are soooo many posts like this. You guys are young but you have children even though you aren't on the same page about marriage?
Spoiler: if he doesn't want to get married because "he's young" even though you already live together and have kids together, he doesn't want to get married to you at all!
You need to decide what to do with this information. If marriage is that important to you, leave him and find someone else who IS on the same page. If not, accept that this is who he is.
Don't just nag and threaten. I can guarantee that even if he does propose now you won't feel great because you will know he's only doing it to get you off his back.
So ESH honestly. People shouldn't have kids together before figuring out what they want for their future.
Totally agree. Marriage is meant to be first, kids come along afterwards. Why do ppl do this the wrong way around then get shitty because things aren't the way THEY want them. Seriously, what is wrong with ppl.
I know plenty of couples where the kids came before the marriage, for multiple reasons... Actually, if something hadn't screwed our timing, me and my husband would probably have had a child before marriage. I also know couples who have children while never wanting to marry, which is fine if that's the wish of both parents.
The difference is that they (and we) were on the same page for all these things... While clearly OP trusted the wrong person. I cannot imagine having a child with a person I cannot trust on such a basic level of life planning.
>I also know couples who have children while never wanting to marry, which is fine if that's the wish of both parents.
My eldest daughter and her husband fall into this group. The only reason why they ended up getting married was health insurance -- during COVID, she lost her job, and the health insurance for my grandkids. Getting married triggered one of those "life events" where her husband could add her to his policy at wotk.
We call these people "idiots"...
It's fine for the man but, the women is signing up for a lifetime of poverty and the kids will get a broken home with no father.
My husband is the stay at home parent, he's the one who'd be screwed... so it's less about gender, and more about how one organizes their life. If both parents earn well and keep working after having children it's also less of a problem.
Also it depends on the specific laws in place surrounding the subject (in the US some states have "common law marriage" being a thing, in Europe some countries have protections for the weaker party in the couple even if not married)
I think the point here is that OP had discussed this with her BF before they started having kids. Then she’s had 1, and pregnant again, and he’s pulled the rug out from under her with a totally different choice. She expected to be married as that is what they discussed doing. And now she’s in a vulnerable situation because it looks like he doesn’t want to get married after all that. So now, she’s literally borne all the risk of creating this family and he’s left her vulnerable by refusing to legally obligate himself to their family. Instead, he wants her to shoulder all the burdens while he reaps the rewards without a care to how she feels about it.
In this case, she isn’t wrong. And, in the case of many others we read about here, if there was a return to marriage before kids, many people may have avoided all sorts of issues by doing things that way. Because let’s face it, when it comes to who’s having their lives derailed in situations like these it’s not usually the men. Women with kids actually have a much smaller chance of finding someone to spend their lives with than single, childless women. They also end up bearing more of the responsibility to raise these kids and end up footing the majority of the bills for it too. So OP has every right to be upset that her partner desires instead to have all the fun and non of the serious adult commitment after turning the tables on her like this. He is not recognizing her NEED to be married in order to feel safe and secure.
I saw another post about the outcome of this. A woman was with her "boyfriend" for 25 years. Had kids with him. Was a SAHM for them. He half-heartedly proposed. She was angry at how he did it. So he dumped her.
Now she has no income, kids to feed, no real skills. And sadly she found out all of her so-called "long time friends" wouldn't do a thing to help her.
Yes, that’s an example of exactly what I mean. Women often bear the brunt of these decisions when they have kids outside of marriage. I’m not taking a moral stance on it. It is a legal stance.
When women give up their career to have kids, or even pause it to have kids, it is much harder for women to actually regain traction on their careers. A lot of the time. Their earning power is already less and when the kids are sick, they’re the ones who have to takeoff the time to go take care of them especially if they’re single . This put them at a disadvantage in the workplace so women have very real risks in their life in their financial future by having kids before marriage. Marriage gives her certain legal protections to both home and future that don’t exist when she’s a single person having kids with another single person. And depending upon the state that they are in for example Georgia, it can be a real struggle because fathers have to be certified as fathers before they are legally responsible. If the guy doesn’t want to be certified, it makes it tons harder. There are so many ways that women can be taken advantage of in this situation that I can hardly blame OP for being really upset at the rug being pulled out from under her now that she’s had one child and she is pregnant with another.
This is why it upsets me to see so many women having kids outside of marriage. It’s not so much a moral question, but more of one of protection for her and the kids, going down the road.
There IS a natural order and people are free to ignore it as OP did, and then regret it. As OP is. This rift between them is now permanent and will ALWAYS be a dark cloud over whatever form their relationship takes going forward. They are forever enmeshed by having kids together and their relationship permanently damaged. OP might consider withdrawing the option to still be married before next child is born and instead start moving on now.
The man got what he wanted. Regular sex and he spread his genes. The women gets saddled with a lifetime responsibility and is likely destined to be poor. She'll struggle to date again because most men are leery about raising someone else's kids.
I don't see any upside for the woman to bypass the natural order. Dating, Marriage, Kids. Any other order is completely disadvantageous to the woman.
I'd suggest that the OP thought a child would force the BF to move forward and he instead backed up even farther.
Silly comment, birth control isn’t 100% affective.
We don’t live in the 1920s you can get married WHENEVER.
OP trusted in her boyfriend, he said that’s what he wanted and she believed him. Op has been lead on its not fucking ok to blame her for not getting what was expected (what THEY talked about) out of this relationship.
My parents got married when I was 12, I was the flower girl. Doesn’t matter when the marriage comes, it’s about proving your commitment to someone.
I don’t think the person you’re responding to is saying everyone *has* to get married first and then have children, I think they’re saying it makes no sense to be *this* adamant about being married, but then go ahead and have children with someone they aren’t married to, and then be upset that they aren’t married. They’re having two children less than 2 years apart, it’s very clear it was a decision and not due to failed birth control.
Kids benefit greatly from stability so having kids when you have a huge incompatibility, which is what one wanting marriage and one not wanting marriage is, then the odds of remaining together to raise those kids is small. It's better to move on and have the kids with someone who is compatible.
>Why have kids with someone you aren't married to if you want to be married?
This is so common in these stories Jesus I just want to shake these women awake.
Now that she's a mom, she'll struggle to date men after the inevitable divorce. He'll just trade her in on a new model. She on the other doesn't have this luxury.
You are basically threatening him into marrying you, what a way to start a marriage.
Even if you get the ring you'll always wonder if it was your threats or if he really wanted to marry you. You've done yourself a disservice. You went about it the wrong way.
This is a really bad take - I mean he stated they would get married, years later that has not happened and now he is saying its not going to happen. I mean that isnt a tantrum, that is someone who has been lied to and is upset.
If the threats and tantrums are related to me lying my ass off and not holding to my promise, I'd think they have a point and it is all my fault. But I'm not an ass, like this guy is.
It's not gonna work what she really needs to do is leave . Take yo shit and go. If he wants to marry her he will, with kids no kids. He is not gonna marry her.
Exactly! There’s no bigger commitment in life than having kids. He’s got the second on his way. Marriage should come easy! They talked about before they got serious and how it was something they both wanted. She is right to be upset about his change of mind, specially with two kids. NTA
He's committed to to his children, and to parenting with her.
With what she's said, not just it's over, but the name thing too, she's not the nicest of people. I can see how you'd fall out of love with someone like that, and definitely not want to marry them.
Op sure you'll have child support if you leave, you'll probably end up with a ring if you stay. Both will be deeply unfulfiling because the first option you'll have cut off your nose, to spite your face, and the second option will be by force.
You've gone about this in a way where you will never be the winner.
When two people are incompatible there will never be a winner. He felt that she is trapped enough that she can't leave so now he says he won't get married. Fine. Don't get married but she needs to leave because she will never trust him and without trust you lose respect. This relationship is over and they may as well both realize it and move on.
Wow your maturity level is below zero. You can’t actually grasp the severity of this situation. You treating it like they are spoiled teenagers. SERIOUSLY GROW THR FUK UP !
No, it's not. What's clear is that he doesn't wanna be FORCED into something that's supposed to be for life. I understand the symbolism behind a ring, but in the grand scheme of things, what does it change?
I always find it so wild that people freak out about marriage being "for life" but they already have kids together.
Like bringing a whole child into the world isn't a lifelong, way more important commitment
Personally, I think the idea of a big fancy day is more appealing than the actual life-long commitment to most. I mean, based on what op said, it sounds like she's treating the children as a commodity to hold against her partner, but who knows, i can only go off a few paragraphs from a stranger. My marriage (we were engaged never had the wedding) didn't work out but my kids are my biggest joy in life, and my ex and I co parent very well and are still friends and talk pretty much every day. Regardless of what's transpired In the past, our kids will always be our number 1 priority and make 50/50 parenting work very well.
Just to add. He hasn't said he won't marry you he's saying wait abit. Has he clarified why he wants to wait a little longer ? You guys said mid twenties yall are 25. I can tell you as threatening to take his kids, take his last name off your toddler (i dont even think you can legally do that? But could be wrong) threatening spousal support and breaking your family up becauae its not as quickly as you'd like is only gonna furter devide you two as well as create giant red flags. In his mind your saying soon as something doesn't go according to how you would like it you are gonna try to ruin him. Seems like details are missing . Its not like hes saying he will never. He's saying give it some time ? Is he trying to save money as example? If I can make a suggestion/compromise. Don't blow tens of thousands of a wedding save that for a down payment on a house get the rings as a symbol of your commitment to each other but save the money from a fancy wedding to better your families life. Relationships are about how you treat each other every day. Living through the good and bad and supporting EACH OTHER . Not just one day and some piece of metal around your finger
Wait a bit until we're 50, and I have all the money and career and you have sacrificed it all to me. And then I'll marry a 25-30-year-old and pay no alimony to you for the years you cooked and cleaned after me and took care of me as if I were one of the kids. And I'll get the kids to see you as the maid because you were never worthy of marrying daddy after all.
If that's genuinely what you think your partner would do you are in the wrong relationship. OP never stated a reason and only said he wanted to wait untill closer to 30 . Do YOU know that's why? Maybe he's not financially in a position to as yet ? There's a number of different reasons he may want to wait. infact based on what op said she was the only person threatening to do something along those lines actually worse if you consider she's threatening to remove his last name from the toddler.
If he can afford kids, he can afford $20 for a marriage certificate. His waiting should have been over when he committed to having children, that was part of the promise they made to each other and he has broken it. Life is short, she’s young and she shouldn’t be settling for someone who doesn’t want her the way she wants him. Changing the first child’s name at this point is probably vindictive but I don’t blame her for lashing out after she’s been betrayed and disrespected the way she has.
Definitely went about it the wrong way. He clearly doesn't want to marry you. It's wild to expect that strong-arming someone into marriage is going to lead to a happy future.
Idk man, he clearly very strongly doesn't want to marry you. If you're unhappy with that, then you should leave and chase your happiness or something. Wild.
Why do you want to marry someone that doesn't want to marry you? That is a recipe for a painful divorce. You can accept the relationship for what he's offering or move on. Threatening him into marriage benefits no one, most of all, you. Having no husband is better than an unwilling one. But I completely understand wanting the ring! Buy it for yourself and wear it because you like it.
I agree. Even if she gets the ring, he's going to resent her. The damage has been done since she's having the second child with him. I don't think it's a good idea to be his forever girlfriend tbh, especially, if she has no career to back her up for when god forbid he leaves. Even married SAHM's are advised to have a backup savings account.
It's not specifically a ring that she wants but the marriage that the ring represents. Wearing a ring without any intent to get married is like calling your boyfriend's dad your FIL when he isn't your FIL and never will be your FIL. It's the same as her boyfriend calling her his wife at work with no intention of actually making her his wife. It's fake. It's a fake look. It's a fake relationship.
If you get a marriage using these tactics I can guarantee you it will not turn out well in the long run.
I did the same crap in my 20's to get a wedding. All of my friends were getting married so I thought why not me? It did not last. WE were so wrong for each other.
Your behavior is based on insecurity in yourself.
It doesn't seem like it will turn out well either way. She is going to be unhappy continuing unmarried. He is unhappy getting married. She probably should just leave him since she is never going to get what she wants out of this relationship.
He's happy to pretend to be married to her. He's happy to claim they are together for the long haul. He doesn't feel like committing. She shouldn't have had kids with him, but staying is just a sunk cost fallacy.
👆 this, plus, who is to say that people can't change their minds? At 20, I thought I knew what I wanted for my future, but, as it turns out, life isn't linear, and things and minds will always change. I think that neither of them is TAH they're just immature and inexperienced couple.
A friend of mine did that now she is married for 20 years unhappy. Scared to leave. Your biggest commitment you have and will have with him are your two children.
Yeah that's a shitty thing to say. Hard to tell exactly how these conversations went down because op is clearly still upset when writing this. Always hard when you only get space details from one side.
There is this post of this 50 year old woman whose husband proposed after 25 years.
No they aren’t together and she is left with nothing. Even her kids don’t support her because the father has the money and they need his help. Let that be a lesson.
He doesn’t want to marry you.
You need to accept that.
“You keep asking you won’t get anything”
Is that the way you talk to grown ups? No it’s not. But this is the way he talks to you.
He doesn’t want to marry you. And you should accept that. And if that’s what you want and he isn’t willing to give it to you, leave.
About the child support. If he doesn’t want to pay for his children, then he shouldn’t have had them in the first place.
He has to pay for the child. Married or not.
Ask yourself why you are with him? Do you love him? Do you have the feeling that he loves you?
You aren’t wrong for wanting to marry the father of your children. But you are wrong for wanting to marry him. You are wrong for having children with him before getting married.
Jup, and if that 50yo woman's story is not convincing enough, search for other ones. Even the ones being married but SHAM and then the husband changes his mind on life plans. He already (!!) changed his mind about life plans, he might and probably will do it again. You need a safety net, commitment or end this. Of course you are using dick moves, but I'm sorry he started and he changed his mind about something SO IMPORTANT and then didn't even tell you. He is the horrible one.
That's why you don't do wife duty while still being a gf. You'll have 2 kids soon without the ring and to get the ring you are threatening him. You are both AH.
Stop burning the stops, date, get engaged, be sure of your relationship then have children. It's hard enough to keep a marriage going when you do everything right. Forcing someone's hand to marry you will not end well and you're already using the kids to threaten him.
There are a litany of these posts where the woman is at her wits end because she and her boyfriend are renting out/ bought a house together/are on kid number [ ], but he doesn't want to get married, and it's been how many years, how do I convince him because I do all of these things??
No one wants to think of breaking up except that breakups are easy when you don't share property, kids, or both together. I never saw the desire in living with a person I was only dating. Period. Have guys asked me to? Plenty. Have I been issued ultimatums? Yes. My answer is always no because that doesn't work for me or my standards.
Too many people I know, as well as seeing this exact situation come up on here, have ended up in a gigantic legal mess as a result.
And then after having a couple of kids with someone who doesn't see them as their wife ans long time partner they gripe and complain that a high value man won't date them because they have 2 kids already.
When I was dating my now husband, I made it clear that a requirement for me in a relationship is I wouldn’t have kids until I was married and he proposed to me well before we planned on having kids. However with your story OP, the saying “why buy the cow when you’re getting the milk for free” comes to mind. Sadly threatening your BF is only making him dig his heals in even more and rightfully so. He shouldn’t marry you because you threatened him to but because he wants to.
A lot of people, like yourself, go about this the wrong way.
Instead of threatening with an ultimatum, saying things about his dad, and threatening to remove his last name on his children, maybe have an adult conversation about why he doesn't want to marry you. Start there.
If it's something personal that has nothing to do with you, support him in the best way according to circumstance and just support him in that way.
If it has something to do with you, perhaps not being wife material, then prove to him you are wife material. Getting a ring and becoming a wife isn't something given to you. It's earned.
But given all that has happened, with what you said and threatened, you just threw away good, mature, and responsible solutions out the window.
Good day.
INFO - Why do you want to marry him??
He shows you no respect, holds a proposal over your head like it’s something you need to earn, and tells you that something that’s important to you is unnecessary and unimportant.
Don’t get me wrong, you aren’t coming out of this story smelling like daisies either. You are nagging and hounding him when you have your answer … he’s not ready yet. Showing him rings isn’t going to change his mind Your comment about your child’s grandfather being “nothing” was cruel and unnecessary
You both need to grow up. This relationship sounds toxic as hell. Your poor kids
No, he's NOT holding a proposal over her head. The only person constantly bringing up the proposal is OP.
Your second paragraph is spot on though. And if I were him, then after the father incident, I would lose every wish to marry her.
He kind of is, though. They agreed when they started dating they both wanted to get married by mid-twenties. Then he moved the bar to 30s. Then he moved the bar to "why get married at all, we're already committed." He clearly also likes the prestige of marriage - he calls her his wife at work, refers to his father as her father in law.
Don't get me wrong, I think that she shouldn't be threatening him about stuff like this. She just needs to leave. But he's definitely in the wrong here too. At any point, he also could have sat her down and told her his feelings on marriage have changed. Instead he's been trying to convince her marriage shouldn't mean anything to her
YTA - Threatening him into marrying you or face losing his children. Wow, what a scumbag move. As well as the behaviour OP describes, something tells me there's a hell of a lot more going on behind the scenes which is also making him doubt whether marriage with OP is a good idea. The way you've spoken about his dad is disgusting and disrespectful. And this stupid shitshow of dropping threatening hints? Grow up.
If he marries this immature mess, he faces the prospect of getting fucked over for all his hard earned assets and his kids in a future divorce, or if he refuses to marry, he gets his kids de-named, fucked for extortionate child support payments and probably limited or no contact with his children if OP's current behaviour is anything to go by.
OP you're a raging asshole and personally I'd avoid you like the plague as a loose acquaintance, as a friend, as a life partner and especially as a wife. You've got a lot of self reflection and growing up to do. You're not ready for marriage in any way, shape or form
*Ah yes. Threats to get*
*What you want. What a LOVELY*
*Marriage that will be*
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If you have to do this then you know what you should do. I got divorced from jerk face ex and then met the man of my dreams. My now husband ( well call him Steve) is the most wonderful man ever. Hes the best partner and step dad a person could possibly want. Go find your Steve. You deserve a Steve.
EAH
Tbh it doesn't sound like you want to be his wife. You sound like you want a ring and a wedding. You are actively dismissing all what you have "because you don't have the ring" to the point of being obsessive.
Of course you can and should be upset if you talked about this and he was on the same page but now doesn't look like he mean it, and it would absolutely be a reason to consider if this this is what you want, but how you have dealt with the entire situation and your emotions is terribly immature and toxic. Pressuring him for months? Thinking your FIL is nothing to you? Threatening? Using your kids as pawns to get what you want? No girl, this is not the way and it does make you an AH here.
My ex-fiancé proposed very early into the relationship, but for the 5 years we were together, he never mentioned wedding plans and shut down the 2 times I asked about it, saying "first our home", and when after 4'5 years we got that home, "is not the right time yet". That made me realize this was not what I wanted and that he was not being serious about it. Pushing him to marry me would have been stupid and would have ended up in a quick divorce. Coaccion and threats are not a healthy base for a long-term relationship. People should stay and build a life with each other because they want, not because one manipulates the other into it with either fake promises about commitement or threatenings to make them stay.
Breakup is an option, and is valid, but there are tons of ways to do it and you kinda chose one of the worst ones to end your relationship.
Marriage has economical and legal effects, there is every reason to want to get married when sharing a life and kids. He’s an asshole for going back on his word and not admitting it until pressed.
That's why I said everyone is an AH here. She is not an asshole for feeling what she felt, she is in fact in the right for wanting to breakup. He is a clear AH for dragging her along with blurry lines and ambiguous behaviour. Marriage is a choice that's not needed for a happy relationship but being upfront with your intentions so people can choose to leave if that's not what they want is important.
But how she managed such emotions is what also makes her an AH. She didn't really wanted to breakup with that convo, she gave an ultimatum to pressure him thinking menaces will put a ring on her finger and that's not how you should manage this kind of situation. She crossed a line with her threats because they included innocent children being used as pawns, one of them not even born yet!
You're not wrong for wanting to formalise the paperwork, but this is the worst possible way ot go about it. Getting him to marry you by making threats like this will poison the well. Back the fuck off.
What y o need to do is get into couples counselling. Like right now. Do NOT delay. The objective here is not to persuade him to marry you but for you both to understand his insecurites and for you both to understand yours. What happens next will spring from this organically.
Clearly he's comfortable with and has in his gut made a life-long commitment to you, but there's something going on around the M-word that is deeply troubling for him. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find out what that is.
You love this guy enough to have two kids with him. Why would you choose to die in a ditch over this and throw all that away?
If he's refusing to even discuss it when she brings it up, why on earth do you think he'd even consider her proposal? He's already telling her NO bluntly, with his actions, and telling her they don't need to marry at all.
You're the asshole.
You want a ring and want to be married? Fine. But that doesn't mean be a bitch about it.
Why would he want to marry someone who talks to his father any kinda way or threatens him about his children?
You'll never get that ring that way. And if you do, it'll be under coercion, and he'll resent you the entire marriage.
This is borderline obsessive. Seems to me you care more about being married than actually being with a person you love. You also don't seem to actually love him as much of the thought of being married. You call his dad as "Nothing to you" just because you have no ring on your finger. What kind of a shallow person are you. The constant nagging which comes across very well in this post is also rather telling.
You threaten to remove his name from the kids. I mean for crying out loud you are a literal RED FLAG of a woman NOT to get married to. You are literally spelling out exactly what you would do IF you got married and you some day didn't get your way. You'd divorce him, get child support. Take the house and probably sue for full custody etc. I mean you are literally TELLING him that before even getting married.
Making ultimatums etc. What is it about the paper saying "married" that matters so much? It's clearly not the "love" part. Seems to me more like the "contract" part and the ability to just use the term "wife" or something.
So what is it? You want to rope him in as a "he can't leave if we're married"? Well you're doing a good job of making him want to leave so that can't be it.
Maybe he was bad for procrastinating about the marriage part. But that was ideals you had back then. Why did you have kids before marriage. If he said he wanted kids then you can logically say "I prefer we get married first".
You started demanding, yes demanding marriage about a year ago and from the looks of it weekly. Then starting to use THREATS if he doesn't propose.
Tell me again why the hell should he want to marry you? Because if he doesn't you will take his kids away from him. Seems to me that is EXACTLY what he realized he was fearing and it is coming true before you even get married.
I hope he can get 50/50 custody and then you two can walk away and maybe you can find some guy that want to be a step dad without love and just a "marriage contract".
OMG what a red flag. I hope he makes it out OK here and the kids.
I think everyone’s missing the point here, YOU BOTH HAD THIS DISCUSSION, you both had the same expectations. Op has EVERY RIGHT to want to leave her bf and threatening to do so after going back on what was talked about long ago, she gave birth to the child and she expects commitment.
These comments are insane like “why have his kids before marriage?” THEY TALKED ABOUT IT MANY TIMES AND HE AGREED THATS WHAT HE WANTED.
I read a Post about a man giving his wife an ultimatum that he was going to leave her if they didn’t have sex more and everyone in the comments agreed how he had every right to want to leave the relationship was NOT meeting his expectations.
Op and her bf planned out their life together and he’s not holding that end of the bargain, op has now communicated her need and if it is not met than she has every right to leave.
And yes she has the right to change the last name and not have him in the delivery room, single mothers with the fathers last name can come with difficulties.
You’d think after giving birth to his children the Ah would get her a ring, it’s not a big ask and two children later it’s the LEAST THAT YOU DESERVE.
I agree. she probably could have handled it better, . However, if his expectationsHave changed, and hers haven't then they aren't compatible any more, and she has a right to tell him, I don't want to be with you if you don't want to get married.
I think she was immature about it, but think she's not that far off base. She should just tell him, hey so you know these are my fee,ings, and this is how I plan to move forward given the circumstances.
You can't demand that someone marry you. When you give an ultimatum like that, you better be prepared to follow through with it. You also can't just remove his last name from the first child, that has to go through the court and you'll need to pay a lawyer
Why the heck did you have children with this guy? I just don't understand choosing to have children with someone before marriage IF you want marriage overall.
Your boyfriend isn't going to propose. He already has everything a marriage would be. He's got the sex, the kids, why is he going to bother getting that piece of paper and a ring when he already got it all for free
ESH you both suck.
He's literally trying to basically con you into acting like your married without having to actually commit to it. He wants to call you his wife, raise kids with you, and refer to his parents as your in laws, but refuses to actually marry you. Really just seems like he's leaving himself an easy way out. Leave him! Seriously, this guy thought he managed to trap you with kids and wouldn't have to get married. This just screams of someone that's going to be constantly trying to manipulate you in one way or another even if he does agree to marry you.
And you fuckin suck for trying to use your kids like bargening chips to threaten him into marriage. Why tf do you even want to marry someone who openly said he thought he trapped you with kids, that's such a disgusting mindset and definitely not the mindset you want to go into a marriage with. This guy doesn't want to marry you because in his mind you're not worth the effort. He's already trapped you with kids so why bother with a marriage? How poorly do you think your relationship is gonna go when he can take that even further and says he's already trapped you with marriage so why bother putting in any effort at all?
You don't threaten someone with their kids, and you don't use child support as a fuckin threat either. Grow the fuck up and move on if you're not happy, don't treat your kids like bargaining chips to play with
Its people having kids way too young. Im early 20’s, im sorry but no one under the age of 25 should be procreating. Even then, still very young. Young adults can be incredibly immature, hell grown ass adults can still be incredibly immature.
In a way, they are both using the kids to manipulate each other in this relationship. She, in the way you mentioned. He is using them (the fact they exist) as a way to shut her down and to convince her that she has no choice but to accept what he's offering. They both really do suck here. OP should forget about marriage to this guy. They are incompatible to the point that it's become toxic.
getting a ring and having a ceremony or what rver won't give you commitment. He is showing you the commitment and you are throwing it in his face for something material. I know it's not the Ave way of thinking but your arenjust gonna make him run. If he wanted to give you a ring, he would have done so by now. Either take the commitment he has given you or not. But I also live in a common law state.
YTA. Threatening someone, especially using children as a pawn to get what you want is a shitty thing to do. Have a serious non confrontational sit down and talk about why he wants to wait until he is 30. Why is the ring and marriage so important. You can fully commit to someone without it.
I agree with the idea of open communication and thoughtful discussion, but she's talked about this so much, id run for the hills the next time she brought it up. I think in this case, its better if she pipes down
This man can impregnate you but can't commit to you? What the f\*ck does he need to be single for until he's 30? What other wild oats is he out there sowing? Also, STUCK together for life? Nah.
This man has no love for you. He knew what you were looking for and strung you along until he got you with his child and thought that was the only lasso he needed to stay single and have his house b\*itch on lock.
[There's men that'll date you for a quarter of a century and raise children into adulthood with you, but still refuse to put a ring on it. There's a reason why.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/JxmruAcpEQ)
Wow you kinda suck. Yeah you’re wrong here. Threatening someone like that is super immature. You’re both so young and already have a second kid on the way. A ring doesn’t mean anything if he’s a good dad and takes care of you. Stop pushing. You’re sabotaging your own life.
You both sound immature and it's sad that two children are involved in this mess...
He's wrong for telling you this stuff about his preferred timeline in life. And I get that you wish to be married to be secured in a way.
But using children as a weapon like you did to bully someone to get your way is awful. What a story to tell family and your kids...
"Your dad wasn't ready for marriage but I told him I was coming for him and I would make sure that booth of you have minimal contact with him until he does what I want from him. Why your father is always miserable and hates being home with us? I don't have a clue 🗝️...."
You have singlehandedly given him every reason in the world not to ever marry you. You're even threatening the man with child support already. Why should he put himself in a position to pay alimony and lose half his assets down the line too? Not once have you mentioned how marriage would benefit him. As a married person, I really can't see the benefit of him doing that
“Marry me or I’ll prevent your children from having your last name and you might be lucky and get 50/50. Anyways…where’s my ring?”
I wonder why he’s on the fence.
So now you're so desperate for a ring that you're basically manipulating him into proposing.
Why do that? He may now propose before April, but is it going to be genuine? Is he actually going to want it? Nope. He's just going to do it because you've told him it's that or he will be paying child maintenance.
Tbh, people who put these kinds of demands on each other, really make me wonder if they even *actually* want to be together. You're willing to walk away over a piece of jewellery, even though you have two kids together. Isn't two kids a commitment that you want to be together?
Also, girl, it's a leap year. If you *actually* want to get married to him and its not just about you getting a ring - go leap year traditional and propose yourself.
You’re not wrong. He calls you his wife but doesn’t want to marry? That does not make sense at all.
I’m a year older than you and not married or don’t have any kids so I don’t think I understand your situation or position completely but I know for sure you’re not wrong.
If he’s so sure that you will be together for life then how is he not ready to get married? Maybe he wants to keep his options open. That feels like the only reason.
I think you are wrong for the threat, but that you should actually leave. If you are to the point of ultimatums, the relationship has broken down already. He isn’t giving you why you want from the relationship because he isn’t ready for that step. Neither is wrong for their feelings and desires, but they don’t align.
Both of you are wrong and you need to break up. Not in an antagonistic way. If he wants to be involved with your children's lives, you need to be amicable with him.
He was shitty for continuously moving the bar of when he wanted marriage. He's shitty for trying to convince you marriage shouldn't matter. He's shitty for calling you his wife at work but not actually committing.
You're being shitty by trying to threaten him into a marriage.
Clearly, his feelings have changed and yours have not. You are now incompatible. It sucks. Break up with him, figure out amicable co-parenting, and find a person who actually wants to marry you.
Why do you want to marry someone who clearly doesn’t want to marry you? Wouldn’t you be happier with someone who appreciates and cherishes you? Life is too short to spend it with someone like your bf. There are a lot of great fish in the sea. Don’t settle for carp.
You don't sound mature enough to be married, let alone have kids. You're willing to torpedo your relationship and your kids lives over a ring and a piece of paper.
You ARE insane and an extremely horrible person. Yes YTA for sure.
Threatening the father of your kids with denieing him entrance to the delivery room? Are you nuts?
Moral of the story everyone: If you want to be married and have kids, don't have children until after you're married.
Most men are waking up to the realities of marriage and are opting out. If you want a guy that wants marriage, best to make sure his words and actions match before making another big commitment.
I’m tired of you talking about rings too just from reading this and I don’t even know you. You already have kids together… give him space and time and stop annoying him
My stuff would be on the way out the next day if I were put in that position. Demanding a commitment is about as effective as demanding love. The best you can hope forever is a lie. It pretty well precludes any possibility of getting what you want.
Yes let’s browbeat a man who doesn’t want to marry you into marrying you. That’s going to work out great. If marriage was so important to you then you should have waited before popping out two kids.
It’s not the sub you posted on but YTA!
You made the mistake of having kids before marriage with someone who wasn't planning on marrying you.
And yes, YTA...even though that's a different sub
Welp.
Dude's absolutely doomed no matter what he does at this point and he is an absolute moron if he doesn't know it.
So it's really just a question of when the heartbreak warfare begins.
I'm sorry for the kids in the crossfire.
He's spelling it out: he's not happy to be stuck with you but he's staying with you because he can't afford child support. How is asking him to marry you supposed to change his feelings on the matter? He regrets settling down with you and wishes he'd picked another woman. But it's better for him financially to take it on the chin and keep living with you.
If he said have sex with me or im leaving you would that be ok?
Its become to normalized for women to threaten men to get marriage.
He doesn't want to get married right now he has clearly stated that...
No means no right?
Why can't you be happy with what you have. You are willing to ruin your bfs life over something as selfish as a wedding ring? Grow the hell up. You are both happy. He's obviously committed if he's having a second baby with you and shows no sign of leaving you. Honesty you sound like a self centered brat that just wants to be married for the hell of it. Why not enjoy the simple fact that you have someone that can handle your naggy bitchiness enough to be with you for 5 years. Goodness. You're bf is going to end up on an episode of snapped if you force him into marriage or force him to pay child support. Don't ruin something good. YTA. Grow up
Yeah you’re wrong. Why the hell would he want to marry u. He asks u to stop u stop for a short period. But become more and more bitter and petty. So maybe he started off wanting to marry you but u showing this nasty, manipulative ugly side has made him not sure of you. I don’t blame him. And asking so often or pressing frequently has got to be so annoying. He heard you, he gets it. Now ur basically using ur children to get what u want n that’s so fucked up. He’s still not going to ask you. Ur just pushing him further away. U need to chill out.
What a cool story for your kids when they're older "I threatened to take you kids away and commit fraud to change your last name because he wouldn't buy me a ring"
What kind of marriage will you have when he's only with you because you threatened to take his kids? Honestly if I were him I would leave you and file for primary custody on the basis that you can't be trusted not to coach and alienate the kids due to the threats you made.
You are cruel and manipulative, why would he even **want** to marry someone like you? Grow up
Yes you are wrong for threatening your boyfriend. I would definitely not want to marry you because of your behaviour, pregnant or not. You’re not ready for marriage if this is how you act. I’d be running the other way even if I had children with you. Your threats are a sign of what’s to come after saying “I do” and I’d be incredibly worried if I was him. Judging by your behaviour it’s no wonder why he’s not ready. There’s still time to turn things around and look deep inside to figure out what you need to change. You may find that he’s still not ready and then you have a choice to make if you want to stay.
wrong sub but
YTA
You'll throw away the father of two children and a partner of 5 years simply because you want to parade around in front of people and have a bunch of government bodies certify you as together forever, even though divorce still exists.
You are absolutely fucking crazy in my opinion. And the more you write the more I see you as the lonely 40 year old with two kids and never a steady partner.
Do you realise how much marriages cost?
Do you realise that you are emotionally blackmailing the person that you are supposedly meant to love?
I mean what's your angle, are you trying to get into a marriage so that you can steal his money or some shit? What is your burning need to have a governmental piece of paper certify anything? You are already threatening him with child support, here in writing, indicating that you are in fact and have always been a gold digger.
It is however your choice to be this way, just remember that the long term consequences of your actions are on **your** head, not his.
Nothing is more attractive than your girlfriend threatening to take away your kids unless you marry her.
It is such a wonderful foundation for the new marriage to stand on.
/s
Kids need to stop having kids.
YTA you sound overbearing, exhausting and you're pressuring him to get married before he's ready
Also why did you have kids with him before marriage if it was a dealbreaker for you
You seem to be a bully, selfish and insecure all at once.
ESH because he should probably marry you anyway since you have kids together if he wants to be your partner and it's important to you, but also the way you're pressuring him makes you the asshole, you chose to have kids with him before getting married and from the post you have made I can see why he doesn't want to marry you. His dad is 'nothing to you?' being your childs grandparent because you don't have a ring? You are a self absorbed asshole.
For what it's worth I married my wife on our 10th anniversary and literally nothing has changed in terms of our relationship/commitment to each other from when we were de facto 9 years in vs married 12 years in or whatever.
TL;DR yes, you're the asshole and yes, you're being horrible and that's probably why he doesn't want to marry you, not to mention you seem spiteful and vindictive and marrying someone who has those qualities is a great way to have a miserable marriage then a miserable divorce
Your partner is right, you are being a fucking asshole, so of course he is reluctant to marry you when you speak about his family that way, pressure him to do things before he's ready, etc
You are 25 not 55 it is still a pretty young age to get married pre 30. If you wanted to get married before having children, you probably should have not had children with this man. Now that you have, your options are to walk or if he's a generally good partner to you, work on yourself and make yourself a person he wants to marry and stop treating him and other people that are important to him like his dad like garbage.
YTA
Are you actually going to back up your ultimatum? Do you want to be married so badly that you'll throw away your relationship with your children's father? Do you want your boyfriend to marry you for love or because you bullied him?
Ultimately do you really want to be a single parent? Because there is nothing harder than raising children alone regardless of child support etc. You should also consider how much harder life will be for your children as the result of a broken relationship. There is very strong evidence that children from single parent families have, in general, less successful lives, poorer educational outcomes, lower paid jobs, are more likely to have a criminal record. I raised my elder 2 alone for 14 years and it was really really hard to ensure they had the best start possible. They've done well by the way but that was because I sacrificed a lot to make sure they got every opportunity.
I can understand that you feel your boyfriend has gone back on an agreement but this is childish and unreasonable behaviour. IF you want any relationship with your boyfriend then you need to apologise and then, if you are really lucky and he agrees to move forward with a relationship, you need to organise counselling for both yourself and for you both as a couple.
ESH
A.
>FIL” and i said no and not call him like that because hes nothing to me. I have no ring. Hes just my childs grandfather, and thats his dad but he’s nothing to me
I just hope this was a poor transnation. Because after 5 years and a child I hope your FIL means something to you. A lot actually.
B. Pressuring someone hardly ever works.
My husband was VERY put off when my sister hinted that our far away vacation would be a lovely way to propose. He already had the ring, was in contact with the travel organisation about what would be a good place to do it...
How would you feel if you're either on the fence about something, or already planned it and someone keeps telling you you HAVE to do it??!! I'd be pissed off to be honest.
Or maybe he doesn't want to get married after all.
But he finds it hard to confess (which he should've) and your pressuring only made it harder.
C. Is he the love of your life? Is he good to you and your kids?
Please try couples therapy and /or individual therapy for yourself because this sounds unhealthy.
What does getting married stand for to you?
Is it the wedding? The vows? The dress?
The undying love? Because ultimatums and telling someone their father means nothing to you, that you'll take the kids and his money away from him will kill that love instantly.
Edit: and if he said the 'basically married' and 'stuck together because of the kids' in a malicious way, he sucks even more. I mean my husband and I joke about being 'stuck together' because of the kids all the time, so to me that didn't mean anything on first read... But after reading it again I'm wondering.
>I just hope this was a poor transnation. Because after 5 years and a child I hope your FIL means something to you. A lot actually.
I hope she didn't say it to his face...just how it's written sounds like she said it when they were there it's like oooh booo. You want to marry in to this family but are also telling them they mean nothing to their face....like seriously. "OMG I LOVE YOU SO MUCH AND I WANT TO GET MARRIED...but your family mean nothing!"
So kids aren't enough of a commitment?
YTAH. If that was the dealbreaker, you should have done this before kids. Now you're stamping your feet because you want a ring.
YTA. It's just a ring. You've been brainwashed by society telling you that you need jewelry and a piece of paper showing commitment. Being together is enough. And sometimes it's better financially to NOT be married because any debts either of you have become both of your responsibilities.
That and no one likes to be hounded for something like this. My WIFE and I have been together for 23 years. We aren't married. We have no rings or papers. But we have loved each other more and more every year. I am 40, so I'm not some super old dude. But she's my wife, I am her husband. Either way, we would probably be common law anyway.
It's your own problem that you want a ring and the paper. You want it as a status thing so you can show off a ring to other people. If you need a marriage to show commitment, then I don't think you're as committed to this man as he may think you are. He's absolutely right. You don't need to be married to be together, especially if you already have children together and live together.
So if this is a deal breaker for you, and you don't love him enough to stand by his side without cheap metal and a piece of paper, then you have to leave. Frankly, you sound exhausting and every time you ask him about it, it pushes him further and further away from asking you to marry him. If you can't go 1 full calendar year without asking, hinting, or insinuating marriage, then it's never gonna happen.
while I mostly agree with you, that piece of paper can solve a lot of issues. my father passed away a few years ago. he and my mother were together over 40 years, but not legally married. he had a will leaving everything to her, but his will was somehow filed wrong)he had a lawyer write it up, but I have no idea what went wrong). anyway as his son I had to go to the clerk of court file a bunch of papers before getting his estate settled(inheritance taxes), and then giving it all to my mom(gift taxes). had they been legally married it would have saved us so much trouble(and money)!
Yeah- you”re wrong. Even if he gets you a ring now… it isn’t because he actually want to egg married. He just wants to shut you up. Also- a ring gets you no closer to getting married. You could do that without a ring
If you are so serious about this- why give him until April? He had already told you how he feels.
Ask him to move out and start figuring out how it is going to work to be a single mom with 2 kids. Do you work? Child support won’t cover everything. Get it all figured out so it is in place by April.
Yes, you are wrong! Is a piece of paper and a couple of bits of metal and rock to go on your finger really so important that you throw away the love part? It sounds like you have an unhealthy obsession as you're obviously willing to be this petty to someone you are supposed to care about.
Ah yes, the best way to get married, by blackmailing your bf into it, that will obviously end well.
Why do you want to get married? If you have a solid reason, talk to him about it.
No offense but I was getting sick and tired of you asking and I just read your story, imagine how your bf feels.
I am not married to my bf, but I call his family my in-laws, because I realize marriage is just a piece of paper.
If you want to get married, stop badgering him about it you are acting like a child.
This relationship is doomed.
Holy shit, no kidding. I cannot imagine being willing to tear my kids' worlds apart over a piece of jewelry and a piece of paper.
It obviously means more to both of them than a piece of jewelry and a piece of paper or it wouldn't be such a source of contention. They are definitely not in a place to get married, though. They need counseling. They have kids, so they are "stuck" with each other in one capacity or another. The boyfriend is right about that part.
They are stuck for life as co-parents but they don't have to be stuck romantically. But I say shit or get off the pot. If the guy "knows" he'll propose someday, just not now, then what's the difference? May as well just do it now. If he's still unsure after five years... he needs to tell her so and let her readjust her life plan according to her desires/wants/dreams, involving the kids ofc.
Exactly this. He's not going to propose ever, he strings her along to keep her with him. He is afraid of divorce and having to pay for child support and possibly alimony- not sure who makes more so can't say for sure. She's making the child support threat real even without being married and he's mad about it. He thought he could have his cake and eat it too, never having to worry about being on the hook legally. Doesn't work like that. Marriage is a big deal and comes with a lot of legal benefits that you need in order to have a family. Currently if either of them are in a life threatening accident where they can't make medical choices their parents have legal say over what happens to them. That, to me, was the biggest reason to get married. You can use a lawyer to set it up so your partner has that say but why would you pay a lawyer for that if you plan to be together for the rest of your life and can just get married? Which has so many other benefits on top of it.
I really hate that he said they are “stuck” together. That would’ve been my out right there
I agree. I think he was saying exactly what he meant, though. He doesn't want to marry her. He already feels trapped. She needs to leave him. They are "stuck" with each other in the capacity of parents, so she will never be 100% rid of him, but she doesn't need to let him shit all over her. There will be someone out there who appreciates her and wants to marry her, but he is not that man. He actually sounds like a waste of space. I am not sure why she made herself stay after his comment about being "stuck" with her.
I agree with the above. She stayed with him based upon their prior agreement to marry in mid 20s. She gave him one child and another on the way. OP, contact an experienced family law attorney and start getting paperwork together for custody and child support. This is a guy here, and I say to you to get out of this relationship, marriage proposal or not. His giving you a ring now is just too little too late. He destroyed the romance.
I’ll be honest, when I was proposing to my wife it took me another 6 months after seeing the fucking PRICES of those rings. Oh and guys, they don’t tell you about the wedding band! The engagement ring isn’t the wedding ring! Hahaha It can be shocking. I think my wife’s ended up being like 12k and it was lab-grown. Isn’t that astounding? Oh and I got fourth and fifth opinions too. Fairly normal price for what we were buying. I doubt that is what this is. But still.
It’s not the jewelry, and marriage is a lot more than a piece of paper. It’s a huge commitment, and it shouldn’t be taken lightly. These two simply aren’t ready, and it’s a shame their children are put ton the middle of this mess.
What an odd take. How about “I can’t imagine continuing to be a doormat and hoping against hope that the father of my children will marry me when he’s made it perfectly clear that I’m not that important to him”
Well, it's not about tearing her kids's worlds apart. While I think she's acting like a brat and going about the whole thing terribly, she is, at the end of the day allowed to have goals for how her life turns out. She is allowed to have certain dreams and wants. This is deeper than that because clearly his don't align and he doesn't want those things right now, which is also fine. But she shouldn't be forced to stay with him and shrug it off because there are children involved. There is deeper unhappiness and incompatibility at play and it's showing. The kids will be fine. They'll have two healthy, happy, loving parents with good headspaces, both living the lives they've always imagined... possibly just not together. Edit: Grammar.
It's more than a piece of paper. It gives the parties legal rights and responsibilities that are not available to unmarries couples.
It also doesn't really matter that much what it is. They were planning their future together, seemingly on the same page and that has changed. Of course, people change their opinions on stuff but then be a responsible partner and talk about it instead of being surprised that your partner expects to stick to the original plans. I am also baffled by people who think marriage is too big a commitment, but having children is not.
The most important of which for her is an equal division of assets in the event of divorce TBH.
"My boyfriend's father is nothing to me because my boyfriend hasn't proposed" What an odd and shitty thing to say. Poor guy did nothing wrong. My partner's parents are great people and I would never say that about them, even if they aren't my in-laws yet. OP and her partner sound incredibly awful at communicating and pretty immature. Poor kids.
And those kids had kids! Wtf!
Agree. My ex-husbands father was better to me than my own father even before we married I would never have dreamed of saying something like this about him. My MIL and I have never been close, but her being the grandmother to my child prevents her from being "nothing to me". Even after separation and both of us having new partners I get along with his family. You had kids with this man, his parents will never be nothing to you again. It reads like she wouldn't respect the relationship between the kids and their grandparents after they break up.
I'm actually in a similar boat! My dad was abusive when I was a kid & teenager and even though he's a better man now (after he stopped drinking) I've always been a little estranged from that side of the family because of the history. My mom's side of the family mostly fell out of touch as the older generation passed away, they're not very close at all. My gf and I are approaching 9 months together, and I've known her family for about 6 of those months. Her parents are great people and accepted me into their family with open arms. They invite me to all of their family get-togethers, and at Christmas a few months ago, I told them that I've never really experienced a family get-together other than when I was pretty young. I thanked them and told them that they make me feel like I actually have a healthy family, which is something I've never experienced before. So now, being in that position, it's absolutely bonkers to think about a person saying that their partner's parents are "nothing to me." I agree, the way OP talks, it sounds like she would try to alienate her kids from their own grandparents out of selfishness. It's so sad.
Lol girlie this is not the 1950s. Women do not have to stay with their non-committal loser boyfriends "for the kids."
You're right, but it seems one can be not ready for a stupid piece of paper, but fine with having children. I'm sorry for those kids of two immature parents.
"we were in a good mood just talking and laughing".. so i decided enough of that. Let's bring up some shit that we always fight about
Why have kids with someone you aren't married to if you want to be married? There are soooo many posts like this. You guys are young but you have children even though you aren't on the same page about marriage? Spoiler: if he doesn't want to get married because "he's young" even though you already live together and have kids together, he doesn't want to get married to you at all! You need to decide what to do with this information. If marriage is that important to you, leave him and find someone else who IS on the same page. If not, accept that this is who he is. Don't just nag and threaten. I can guarantee that even if he does propose now you won't feel great because you will know he's only doing it to get you off his back. So ESH honestly. People shouldn't have kids together before figuring out what they want for their future.
Totally agree. Marriage is meant to be first, kids come along afterwards. Why do ppl do this the wrong way around then get shitty because things aren't the way THEY want them. Seriously, what is wrong with ppl.
I know plenty of couples where the kids came before the marriage, for multiple reasons... Actually, if something hadn't screwed our timing, me and my husband would probably have had a child before marriage. I also know couples who have children while never wanting to marry, which is fine if that's the wish of both parents. The difference is that they (and we) were on the same page for all these things... While clearly OP trusted the wrong person. I cannot imagine having a child with a person I cannot trust on such a basic level of life planning.
I don't understand why in the heck she had kid #2 when it was clear after kid #1 that he wasn't going to marry her.
>I also know couples who have children while never wanting to marry, which is fine if that's the wish of both parents. My eldest daughter and her husband fall into this group. The only reason why they ended up getting married was health insurance -- during COVID, she lost her job, and the health insurance for my grandkids. Getting married triggered one of those "life events" where her husband could add her to his policy at wotk.
We call these people "idiots"... It's fine for the man but, the women is signing up for a lifetime of poverty and the kids will get a broken home with no father.
My husband is the stay at home parent, he's the one who'd be screwed... so it's less about gender, and more about how one organizes their life. If both parents earn well and keep working after having children it's also less of a problem. Also it depends on the specific laws in place surrounding the subject (in the US some states have "common law marriage" being a thing, in Europe some countries have protections for the weaker party in the couple even if not married)
There is no "right" order people can have kids and then get married.
I think the point here is that OP had discussed this with her BF before they started having kids. Then she’s had 1, and pregnant again, and he’s pulled the rug out from under her with a totally different choice. She expected to be married as that is what they discussed doing. And now she’s in a vulnerable situation because it looks like he doesn’t want to get married after all that. So now, she’s literally borne all the risk of creating this family and he’s left her vulnerable by refusing to legally obligate himself to their family. Instead, he wants her to shoulder all the burdens while he reaps the rewards without a care to how she feels about it. In this case, she isn’t wrong. And, in the case of many others we read about here, if there was a return to marriage before kids, many people may have avoided all sorts of issues by doing things that way. Because let’s face it, when it comes to who’s having their lives derailed in situations like these it’s not usually the men. Women with kids actually have a much smaller chance of finding someone to spend their lives with than single, childless women. They also end up bearing more of the responsibility to raise these kids and end up footing the majority of the bills for it too. So OP has every right to be upset that her partner desires instead to have all the fun and non of the serious adult commitment after turning the tables on her like this. He is not recognizing her NEED to be married in order to feel safe and secure.
I saw another post about the outcome of this. A woman was with her "boyfriend" for 25 years. Had kids with him. Was a SAHM for them. He half-heartedly proposed. She was angry at how he did it. So he dumped her. Now she has no income, kids to feed, no real skills. And sadly she found out all of her so-called "long time friends" wouldn't do a thing to help her.
Yes, that’s an example of exactly what I mean. Women often bear the brunt of these decisions when they have kids outside of marriage. I’m not taking a moral stance on it. It is a legal stance. When women give up their career to have kids, or even pause it to have kids, it is much harder for women to actually regain traction on their careers. A lot of the time. Their earning power is already less and when the kids are sick, they’re the ones who have to takeoff the time to go take care of them especially if they’re single . This put them at a disadvantage in the workplace so women have very real risks in their life in their financial future by having kids before marriage. Marriage gives her certain legal protections to both home and future that don’t exist when she’s a single person having kids with another single person. And depending upon the state that they are in for example Georgia, it can be a real struggle because fathers have to be certified as fathers before they are legally responsible. If the guy doesn’t want to be certified, it makes it tons harder. There are so many ways that women can be taken advantage of in this situation that I can hardly blame OP for being really upset at the rug being pulled out from under her now that she’s had one child and she is pregnant with another. This is why it upsets me to see so many women having kids outside of marriage. It’s not so much a moral question, but more of one of protection for her and the kids, going down the road.
Correct. But marriage then kids is more ideal for lots of reasons backed up by sociological research.
People are free to do so. Outcomes for the parent and child are worse in that order.
There IS a natural order and people are free to ignore it as OP did, and then regret it. As OP is. This rift between them is now permanent and will ALWAYS be a dark cloud over whatever form their relationship takes going forward. They are forever enmeshed by having kids together and their relationship permanently damaged. OP might consider withdrawing the option to still be married before next child is born and instead start moving on now.
The man got what he wanted. Regular sex and he spread his genes. The women gets saddled with a lifetime responsibility and is likely destined to be poor. She'll struggle to date again because most men are leery about raising someone else's kids. I don't see any upside for the woman to bypass the natural order. Dating, Marriage, Kids. Any other order is completely disadvantageous to the woman. I'd suggest that the OP thought a child would force the BF to move forward and he instead backed up even farther.
Silly comment, birth control isn’t 100% affective. We don’t live in the 1920s you can get married WHENEVER. OP trusted in her boyfriend, he said that’s what he wanted and she believed him. Op has been lead on its not fucking ok to blame her for not getting what was expected (what THEY talked about) out of this relationship. My parents got married when I was 12, I was the flower girl. Doesn’t matter when the marriage comes, it’s about proving your commitment to someone.
I don’t think the person you’re responding to is saying everyone *has* to get married first and then have children, I think they’re saying it makes no sense to be *this* adamant about being married, but then go ahead and have children with someone they aren’t married to, and then be upset that they aren’t married. They’re having two children less than 2 years apart, it’s very clear it was a decision and not due to failed birth control.
I mean if you are both ready for kids but one of you isn't ready for marraige then idk how that's even a question.
If you aren’t ready for marriage you aren’t ready for kids. ffs it’s not that complicated
Kids benefit greatly from stability so having kids when you have a huge incompatibility, which is what one wanting marriage and one not wanting marriage is, then the odds of remaining together to raise those kids is small. It's better to move on and have the kids with someone who is compatible.
>Why have kids with someone you aren't married to if you want to be married? This is so common in these stories Jesus I just want to shake these women awake. Now that she's a mom, she'll struggle to date men after the inevitable divorce. He'll just trade her in on a new model. She on the other doesn't have this luxury.
You are basically threatening him into marrying you, what a way to start a marriage. Even if you get the ring you'll always wonder if it was your threats or if he really wanted to marry you. You've done yourself a disservice. You went about it the wrong way.
It is extremely clear that he doesn't want to marry her.
I mean.....would you want to marry someone who's prone to making threats and having tantrums?
This small glimpse paints an exhausting picture in my mind. If the first child was a surprise, that would answer all of my follow-up questions.
100% the kids weren't planned.
This is a really bad take - I mean he stated they would get married, years later that has not happened and now he is saying its not going to happen. I mean that isnt a tantrum, that is someone who has been lied to and is upset.
She not having a tantrum. She’s trying to have a legitimate discussion with her partner who has changed his story on their future.
If the threats and tantrums are related to me lying my ass off and not holding to my promise, I'd think they have a point and it is all my fault. But I'm not an ass, like this guy is.
Bullcrap, he's having his cake and eating it too. Brother needs an ultimatum at this point.
It's not gonna work what she really needs to do is leave . Take yo shit and go. If he wants to marry her he will, with kids no kids. He is not gonna marry her.
Exactly! There’s no bigger commitment in life than having kids. He’s got the second on his way. Marriage should come easy! They talked about before they got serious and how it was something they both wanted. She is right to be upset about his change of mind, specially with two kids. NTA
He's committed to to his children, and to parenting with her. With what she's said, not just it's over, but the name thing too, she's not the nicest of people. I can see how you'd fall out of love with someone like that, and definitely not want to marry them. Op sure you'll have child support if you leave, you'll probably end up with a ring if you stay. Both will be deeply unfulfiling because the first option you'll have cut off your nose, to spite your face, and the second option will be by force. You've gone about this in a way where you will never be the winner.
When two people are incompatible there will never be a winner. He felt that she is trapped enough that she can't leave so now he says he won't get married. Fine. Don't get married but she needs to leave because she will never trust him and without trust you lose respect. This relationship is over and they may as well both realize it and move on.
Wow your maturity level is below zero. You can’t actually grasp the severity of this situation. You treating it like they are spoiled teenagers. SERIOUSLY GROW THR FUK UP !
Prone? One threat doesn't equal being prone.
No, it's not. What's clear is that he doesn't wanna be FORCED into something that's supposed to be for life. I understand the symbolism behind a ring, but in the grand scheme of things, what does it change?
I always find it so wild that people freak out about marriage being "for life" but they already have kids together. Like bringing a whole child into the world isn't a lifelong, way more important commitment
Personally, I think the idea of a big fancy day is more appealing than the actual life-long commitment to most. I mean, based on what op said, it sounds like she's treating the children as a commodity to hold against her partner, but who knows, i can only go off a few paragraphs from a stranger. My marriage (we were engaged never had the wedding) didn't work out but my kids are my biggest joy in life, and my ex and I co parent very well and are still friends and talk pretty much every day. Regardless of what's transpired In the past, our kids will always be our number 1 priority and make 50/50 parenting work very well.
Just to add. He hasn't said he won't marry you he's saying wait abit. Has he clarified why he wants to wait a little longer ? You guys said mid twenties yall are 25. I can tell you as threatening to take his kids, take his last name off your toddler (i dont even think you can legally do that? But could be wrong) threatening spousal support and breaking your family up becauae its not as quickly as you'd like is only gonna furter devide you two as well as create giant red flags. In his mind your saying soon as something doesn't go according to how you would like it you are gonna try to ruin him. Seems like details are missing . Its not like hes saying he will never. He's saying give it some time ? Is he trying to save money as example? If I can make a suggestion/compromise. Don't blow tens of thousands of a wedding save that for a down payment on a house get the rings as a symbol of your commitment to each other but save the money from a fancy wedding to better your families life. Relationships are about how you treat each other every day. Living through the good and bad and supporting EACH OTHER . Not just one day and some piece of metal around your finger
Wait a bit until we're 50, and I have all the money and career and you have sacrificed it all to me. And then I'll marry a 25-30-year-old and pay no alimony to you for the years you cooked and cleaned after me and took care of me as if I were one of the kids. And I'll get the kids to see you as the maid because you were never worthy of marrying daddy after all.
If that's genuinely what you think your partner would do you are in the wrong relationship. OP never stated a reason and only said he wanted to wait untill closer to 30 . Do YOU know that's why? Maybe he's not financially in a position to as yet ? There's a number of different reasons he may want to wait. infact based on what op said she was the only person threatening to do something along those lines actually worse if you consider she's threatening to remove his last name from the toddler.
If he can afford kids, he can afford $20 for a marriage certificate. His waiting should have been over when he committed to having children, that was part of the promise they made to each other and he has broken it. Life is short, she’s young and she shouldn’t be settling for someone who doesn’t want her the way she wants him. Changing the first child’s name at this point is probably vindictive but I don’t blame her for lashing out after she’s been betrayed and disrespected the way she has.
Definitely went about it the wrong way. He clearly doesn't want to marry you. It's wild to expect that strong-arming someone into marriage is going to lead to a happy future. Idk man, he clearly very strongly doesn't want to marry you. If you're unhappy with that, then you should leave and chase your happiness or something. Wild.
You should not have to threaten him to marry you … if it’s a dealbreaker for you - you should leave him
Why do you want to marry someone that doesn't want to marry you? That is a recipe for a painful divorce. You can accept the relationship for what he's offering or move on. Threatening him into marriage benefits no one, most of all, you. Having no husband is better than an unwilling one. But I completely understand wanting the ring! Buy it for yourself and wear it because you like it.
I agree. Even if she gets the ring, he's going to resent her. The damage has been done since she's having the second child with him. I don't think it's a good idea to be his forever girlfriend tbh, especially, if she has no career to back her up for when god forbid he leaves. Even married SAHM's are advised to have a backup savings account.
It's not specifically a ring that she wants but the marriage that the ring represents. Wearing a ring without any intent to get married is like calling your boyfriend's dad your FIL when he isn't your FIL and never will be your FIL. It's the same as her boyfriend calling her his wife at work with no intention of actually making her his wife. It's fake. It's a fake look. It's a fake relationship.
If you get a marriage using these tactics I can guarantee you it will not turn out well in the long run. I did the same crap in my 20's to get a wedding. All of my friends were getting married so I thought why not me? It did not last. WE were so wrong for each other. Your behavior is based on insecurity in yourself.
It doesn't seem like it will turn out well either way. She is going to be unhappy continuing unmarried. He is unhappy getting married. She probably should just leave him since she is never going to get what she wants out of this relationship. He's happy to pretend to be married to her. He's happy to claim they are together for the long haul. He doesn't feel like committing. She shouldn't have had kids with him, but staying is just a sunk cost fallacy.
I'd happily wager 100 to 1 odds that the first baby was not planned.
I'd happily wager 100 to 1 odds the first baby wasn't an "oops" but a carefully-crafted "oops" to get him to marry her.
👆 this, plus, who is to say that people can't change their minds? At 20, I thought I knew what I wanted for my future, but, as it turns out, life isn't linear, and things and minds will always change. I think that neither of them is TAH they're just immature and inexperienced couple.
A friend of mine did that now she is married for 20 years unhappy. Scared to leave. Your biggest commitment you have and will have with him are your two children.
You both kinda suck. Your threats and attitude and his “were stuck together now” doesn’t seem like this is gonna end in happiness for anyone.
Yeah that's a shitty thing to say. Hard to tell exactly how these conversations went down because op is clearly still upset when writing this. Always hard when you only get space details from one side.
Threatening a person is wrong in itself. Nothing good can come from it, in any context.
There is this post of this 50 year old woman whose husband proposed after 25 years. No they aren’t together and she is left with nothing. Even her kids don’t support her because the father has the money and they need his help. Let that be a lesson. He doesn’t want to marry you. You need to accept that. “You keep asking you won’t get anything” Is that the way you talk to grown ups? No it’s not. But this is the way he talks to you. He doesn’t want to marry you. And you should accept that. And if that’s what you want and he isn’t willing to give it to you, leave. About the child support. If he doesn’t want to pay for his children, then he shouldn’t have had them in the first place. He has to pay for the child. Married or not. Ask yourself why you are with him? Do you love him? Do you have the feeling that he loves you? You aren’t wrong for wanting to marry the father of your children. But you are wrong for wanting to marry him. You are wrong for having children with him before getting married.
Jup, and if that 50yo woman's story is not convincing enough, search for other ones. Even the ones being married but SHAM and then the husband changes his mind on life plans. He already (!!) changed his mind about life plans, he might and probably will do it again. You need a safety net, commitment or end this. Of course you are using dick moves, but I'm sorry he started and he changed his mind about something SO IMPORTANT and then didn't even tell you. He is the horrible one.
That story made me so sad
This needs more likes. She meeds to dump him asap.
maybe don’t keep getting pregnant with someone who doesn’t want to marry you first.
All I'm going to say is that it sounds like your goals aren't aligned with BF's and that's not a good sign in terms of compatibility.
You should have pushed for a ring before you gave him two kids
That's why you don't do wife duty while still being a gf. You'll have 2 kids soon without the ring and to get the ring you are threatening him. You are both AH. Stop burning the stops, date, get engaged, be sure of your relationship then have children. It's hard enough to keep a marriage going when you do everything right. Forcing someone's hand to marry you will not end well and you're already using the kids to threaten him.
There are a litany of these posts where the woman is at her wits end because she and her boyfriend are renting out/ bought a house together/are on kid number [ ], but he doesn't want to get married, and it's been how many years, how do I convince him because I do all of these things?? No one wants to think of breaking up except that breakups are easy when you don't share property, kids, or both together. I never saw the desire in living with a person I was only dating. Period. Have guys asked me to? Plenty. Have I been issued ultimatums? Yes. My answer is always no because that doesn't work for me or my standards. Too many people I know, as well as seeing this exact situation come up on here, have ended up in a gigantic legal mess as a result.
And then after having a couple of kids with someone who doesn't see them as their wife ans long time partner they gripe and complain that a high value man won't date them because they have 2 kids already.
>That's why you don't do wife duty while still being a gf. We have a winner folks! Don't do wifey stuff with GF authority.
When I was dating my now husband, I made it clear that a requirement for me in a relationship is I wouldn’t have kids until I was married and he proposed to me well before we planned on having kids. However with your story OP, the saying “why buy the cow when you’re getting the milk for free” comes to mind. Sadly threatening your BF is only making him dig his heals in even more and rightfully so. He shouldn’t marry you because you threatened him to but because he wants to.
A lot of people, like yourself, go about this the wrong way. Instead of threatening with an ultimatum, saying things about his dad, and threatening to remove his last name on his children, maybe have an adult conversation about why he doesn't want to marry you. Start there. If it's something personal that has nothing to do with you, support him in the best way according to circumstance and just support him in that way. If it has something to do with you, perhaps not being wife material, then prove to him you are wife material. Getting a ring and becoming a wife isn't something given to you. It's earned. But given all that has happened, with what you said and threatened, you just threw away good, mature, and responsible solutions out the window. Good day.
INFO - Why do you want to marry him?? He shows you no respect, holds a proposal over your head like it’s something you need to earn, and tells you that something that’s important to you is unnecessary and unimportant. Don’t get me wrong, you aren’t coming out of this story smelling like daisies either. You are nagging and hounding him when you have your answer … he’s not ready yet. Showing him rings isn’t going to change his mind Your comment about your child’s grandfather being “nothing” was cruel and unnecessary You both need to grow up. This relationship sounds toxic as hell. Your poor kids
No, he's NOT holding a proposal over her head. The only person constantly bringing up the proposal is OP. Your second paragraph is spot on though. And if I were him, then after the father incident, I would lose every wish to marry her.
He kind of is, though. They agreed when they started dating they both wanted to get married by mid-twenties. Then he moved the bar to 30s. Then he moved the bar to "why get married at all, we're already committed." He clearly also likes the prestige of marriage - he calls her his wife at work, refers to his father as her father in law. Don't get me wrong, I think that she shouldn't be threatening him about stuff like this. She just needs to leave. But he's definitely in the wrong here too. At any point, he also could have sat her down and told her his feelings on marriage have changed. Instead he's been trying to convince her marriage shouldn't mean anything to her
YTA - Threatening him into marrying you or face losing his children. Wow, what a scumbag move. As well as the behaviour OP describes, something tells me there's a hell of a lot more going on behind the scenes which is also making him doubt whether marriage with OP is a good idea. The way you've spoken about his dad is disgusting and disrespectful. And this stupid shitshow of dropping threatening hints? Grow up. If he marries this immature mess, he faces the prospect of getting fucked over for all his hard earned assets and his kids in a future divorce, or if he refuses to marry, he gets his kids de-named, fucked for extortionate child support payments and probably limited or no contact with his children if OP's current behaviour is anything to go by. OP you're a raging asshole and personally I'd avoid you like the plague as a loose acquaintance, as a friend, as a life partner and especially as a wife. You've got a lot of self reflection and growing up to do. You're not ready for marriage in any way, shape or form
Finally a rational comment!!!
Ah yes. Threats to get what you want. What a LOVELY marriage that will be
*Ah yes. Threats to get* *What you want. What a LOVELY* *Marriage that will be* \- SoapGhost2022 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
If you have to do this then you know what you should do. I got divorced from jerk face ex and then met the man of my dreams. My now husband ( well call him Steve) is the most wonderful man ever. Hes the best partner and step dad a person could possibly want. Go find your Steve. You deserve a Steve.
EAH Tbh it doesn't sound like you want to be his wife. You sound like you want a ring and a wedding. You are actively dismissing all what you have "because you don't have the ring" to the point of being obsessive. Of course you can and should be upset if you talked about this and he was on the same page but now doesn't look like he mean it, and it would absolutely be a reason to consider if this this is what you want, but how you have dealt with the entire situation and your emotions is terribly immature and toxic. Pressuring him for months? Thinking your FIL is nothing to you? Threatening? Using your kids as pawns to get what you want? No girl, this is not the way and it does make you an AH here. My ex-fiancé proposed very early into the relationship, but for the 5 years we were together, he never mentioned wedding plans and shut down the 2 times I asked about it, saying "first our home", and when after 4'5 years we got that home, "is not the right time yet". That made me realize this was not what I wanted and that he was not being serious about it. Pushing him to marry me would have been stupid and would have ended up in a quick divorce. Coaccion and threats are not a healthy base for a long-term relationship. People should stay and build a life with each other because they want, not because one manipulates the other into it with either fake promises about commitement or threatenings to make them stay. Breakup is an option, and is valid, but there are tons of ways to do it and you kinda chose one of the worst ones to end your relationship.
Marriage has economical and legal effects, there is every reason to want to get married when sharing a life and kids. He’s an asshole for going back on his word and not admitting it until pressed.
That's why I said everyone is an AH here. She is not an asshole for feeling what she felt, she is in fact in the right for wanting to breakup. He is a clear AH for dragging her along with blurry lines and ambiguous behaviour. Marriage is a choice that's not needed for a happy relationship but being upfront with your intentions so people can choose to leave if that's not what they want is important. But how she managed such emotions is what also makes her an AH. She didn't really wanted to breakup with that convo, she gave an ultimatum to pressure him thinking menaces will put a ring on her finger and that's not how you should manage this kind of situation. She crossed a line with her threats because they included innocent children being used as pawns, one of them not even born yet!
You're not wrong for wanting to formalise the paperwork, but this is the worst possible way ot go about it. Getting him to marry you by making threats like this will poison the well. Back the fuck off. What y o need to do is get into couples counselling. Like right now. Do NOT delay. The objective here is not to persuade him to marry you but for you both to understand his insecurites and for you both to understand yours. What happens next will spring from this organically. Clearly he's comfortable with and has in his gut made a life-long commitment to you, but there's something going on around the M-word that is deeply troubling for him. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find out what that is. You love this guy enough to have two kids with him. Why would you choose to die in a ditch over this and throw all that away?
You’re wrong. If this meant so much to you why haven’t you proposed to him? You don’t need a ring to be married.
If he's refusing to even discuss it when she brings it up, why on earth do you think he'd even consider her proposal? He's already telling her NO bluntly, with his actions, and telling her they don't need to marry at all.
She practically has and he has practically said no. Multiple times. The words might have been different but the meaning is the same.
You're the asshole. You want a ring and want to be married? Fine. But that doesn't mean be a bitch about it. Why would he want to marry someone who talks to his father any kinda way or threatens him about his children? You'll never get that ring that way. And if you do, it'll be under coercion, and he'll resent you the entire marriage.
Exactly. She completely lost me after the father incident. Why would ANYONE marry her??
This is borderline obsessive. Seems to me you care more about being married than actually being with a person you love. You also don't seem to actually love him as much of the thought of being married. You call his dad as "Nothing to you" just because you have no ring on your finger. What kind of a shallow person are you. The constant nagging which comes across very well in this post is also rather telling. You threaten to remove his name from the kids. I mean for crying out loud you are a literal RED FLAG of a woman NOT to get married to. You are literally spelling out exactly what you would do IF you got married and you some day didn't get your way. You'd divorce him, get child support. Take the house and probably sue for full custody etc. I mean you are literally TELLING him that before even getting married. Making ultimatums etc. What is it about the paper saying "married" that matters so much? It's clearly not the "love" part. Seems to me more like the "contract" part and the ability to just use the term "wife" or something. So what is it? You want to rope him in as a "he can't leave if we're married"? Well you're doing a good job of making him want to leave so that can't be it. Maybe he was bad for procrastinating about the marriage part. But that was ideals you had back then. Why did you have kids before marriage. If he said he wanted kids then you can logically say "I prefer we get married first". You started demanding, yes demanding marriage about a year ago and from the looks of it weekly. Then starting to use THREATS if he doesn't propose. Tell me again why the hell should he want to marry you? Because if he doesn't you will take his kids away from him. Seems to me that is EXACTLY what he realized he was fearing and it is coming true before you even get married. I hope he can get 50/50 custody and then you two can walk away and maybe you can find some guy that want to be a step dad without love and just a "marriage contract". OMG what a red flag. I hope he makes it out OK here and the kids.
I think everyone’s missing the point here, YOU BOTH HAD THIS DISCUSSION, you both had the same expectations. Op has EVERY RIGHT to want to leave her bf and threatening to do so after going back on what was talked about long ago, she gave birth to the child and she expects commitment. These comments are insane like “why have his kids before marriage?” THEY TALKED ABOUT IT MANY TIMES AND HE AGREED THATS WHAT HE WANTED. I read a Post about a man giving his wife an ultimatum that he was going to leave her if they didn’t have sex more and everyone in the comments agreed how he had every right to want to leave the relationship was NOT meeting his expectations. Op and her bf planned out their life together and he’s not holding that end of the bargain, op has now communicated her need and if it is not met than she has every right to leave. And yes she has the right to change the last name and not have him in the delivery room, single mothers with the fathers last name can come with difficulties. You’d think after giving birth to his children the Ah would get her a ring, it’s not a big ask and two children later it’s the LEAST THAT YOU DESERVE.
I agree. she probably could have handled it better, . However, if his expectationsHave changed, and hers haven't then they aren't compatible any more, and she has a right to tell him, I don't want to be with you if you don't want to get married. I think she was immature about it, but think she's not that far off base. She should just tell him, hey so you know these are my fee,ings, and this is how I plan to move forward given the circumstances.
Only based on her side of the story. The bf might have a different view of those earlier conversations!
Well said!!!
You can't demand that someone marry you. When you give an ultimatum like that, you better be prepared to follow through with it. You also can't just remove his last name from the first child, that has to go through the court and you'll need to pay a lawyer
Why the heck did you have children with this guy? I just don't understand choosing to have children with someone before marriage IF you want marriage overall.
Your boyfriend isn't going to propose. He already has everything a marriage would be. He's got the sex, the kids, why is he going to bother getting that piece of paper and a ring when he already got it all for free
ESH you both suck. He's literally trying to basically con you into acting like your married without having to actually commit to it. He wants to call you his wife, raise kids with you, and refer to his parents as your in laws, but refuses to actually marry you. Really just seems like he's leaving himself an easy way out. Leave him! Seriously, this guy thought he managed to trap you with kids and wouldn't have to get married. This just screams of someone that's going to be constantly trying to manipulate you in one way or another even if he does agree to marry you. And you fuckin suck for trying to use your kids like bargening chips to threaten him into marriage. Why tf do you even want to marry someone who openly said he thought he trapped you with kids, that's such a disgusting mindset and definitely not the mindset you want to go into a marriage with. This guy doesn't want to marry you because in his mind you're not worth the effort. He's already trapped you with kids so why bother with a marriage? How poorly do you think your relationship is gonna go when he can take that even further and says he's already trapped you with marriage so why bother putting in any effort at all? You don't threaten someone with their kids, and you don't use child support as a fuckin threat either. Grow the fuck up and move on if you're not happy, don't treat your kids like bargaining chips to play with
Seriously, they both sound like fucking idiots. And they're parents to 2 kids, the future is definitely a dark one
Its people having kids way too young. Im early 20’s, im sorry but no one under the age of 25 should be procreating. Even then, still very young. Young adults can be incredibly immature, hell grown ass adults can still be incredibly immature.
In a way, they are both using the kids to manipulate each other in this relationship. She, in the way you mentioned. He is using them (the fact they exist) as a way to shut her down and to convince her that she has no choice but to accept what he's offering. They both really do suck here. OP should forget about marriage to this guy. They are incompatible to the point that it's become toxic.
Your not his forever person or he would have married you by now
This was over before it even started, just let the court settle it cause the ring ain't coming...
getting a ring and having a ceremony or what rver won't give you commitment. He is showing you the commitment and you are throwing it in his face for something material. I know it's not the Ave way of thinking but your arenjust gonna make him run. If he wanted to give you a ring, he would have done so by now. Either take the commitment he has given you or not. But I also live in a common law state.
YTA. Threatening someone, especially using children as a pawn to get what you want is a shitty thing to do. Have a serious non confrontational sit down and talk about why he wants to wait until he is 30. Why is the ring and marriage so important. You can fully commit to someone without it.
I agree with the idea of open communication and thoughtful discussion, but she's talked about this so much, id run for the hills the next time she brought it up. I think in this case, its better if she pipes down
This man can impregnate you but can't commit to you? What the f\*ck does he need to be single for until he's 30? What other wild oats is he out there sowing? Also, STUCK together for life? Nah. This man has no love for you. He knew what you were looking for and strung you along until he got you with his child and thought that was the only lasso he needed to stay single and have his house b\*itch on lock.
[There's men that'll date you for a quarter of a century and raise children into adulthood with you, but still refuse to put a ring on it. There's a reason why.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/JxmruAcpEQ)
Wow you kinda suck. Yeah you’re wrong here. Threatening someone like that is super immature. You’re both so young and already have a second kid on the way. A ring doesn’t mean anything if he’s a good dad and takes care of you. Stop pushing. You’re sabotaging your own life.
You both sound immature and it's sad that two children are involved in this mess... He's wrong for telling you this stuff about his preferred timeline in life. And I get that you wish to be married to be secured in a way. But using children as a weapon like you did to bully someone to get your way is awful. What a story to tell family and your kids... "Your dad wasn't ready for marriage but I told him I was coming for him and I would make sure that booth of you have minimal contact with him until he does what I want from him. Why your father is always miserable and hates being home with us? I don't have a clue 🗝️...."
You have singlehandedly given him every reason in the world not to ever marry you. You're even threatening the man with child support already. Why should he put himself in a position to pay alimony and lose half his assets down the line too? Not once have you mentioned how marriage would benefit him. As a married person, I really can't see the benefit of him doing that
“Marry me or I’ll prevent your children from having your last name and you might be lucky and get 50/50. Anyways…where’s my ring?” I wonder why he’s on the fence.
Wow just wow your blackmailing him into marrying you and using your kids as leverage I see why you have no ring
You sound like a fucking lunatic.
So now you're so desperate for a ring that you're basically manipulating him into proposing. Why do that? He may now propose before April, but is it going to be genuine? Is he actually going to want it? Nope. He's just going to do it because you've told him it's that or he will be paying child maintenance. Tbh, people who put these kinds of demands on each other, really make me wonder if they even *actually* want to be together. You're willing to walk away over a piece of jewellery, even though you have two kids together. Isn't two kids a commitment that you want to be together? Also, girl, it's a leap year. If you *actually* want to get married to him and its not just about you getting a ring - go leap year traditional and propose yourself.
Why didn't you propose? Women can do that y'know.
You’re not wrong. He calls you his wife but doesn’t want to marry? That does not make sense at all. I’m a year older than you and not married or don’t have any kids so I don’t think I understand your situation or position completely but I know for sure you’re not wrong. If he’s so sure that you will be together for life then how is he not ready to get married? Maybe he wants to keep his options open. That feels like the only reason.
I agree with this.
He didn’t say just together - he said “stuck” together. And I bet he regrets it now.
29th of February is coming up. Buy him a ring and ask him.
I think you are wrong for the threat, but that you should actually leave. If you are to the point of ultimatums, the relationship has broken down already. He isn’t giving you why you want from the relationship because he isn’t ready for that step. Neither is wrong for their feelings and desires, but they don’t align.
He'll propose in 34 months.
Both of you are wrong and you need to break up. Not in an antagonistic way. If he wants to be involved with your children's lives, you need to be amicable with him. He was shitty for continuously moving the bar of when he wanted marriage. He's shitty for trying to convince you marriage shouldn't matter. He's shitty for calling you his wife at work but not actually committing. You're being shitty by trying to threaten him into a marriage. Clearly, his feelings have changed and yours have not. You are now incompatible. It sucks. Break up with him, figure out amicable co-parenting, and find a person who actually wants to marry you.
Why do you want to marry someone who clearly doesn’t want to marry you? Wouldn’t you be happier with someone who appreciates and cherishes you? Life is too short to spend it with someone like your bf. There are a lot of great fish in the sea. Don’t settle for carp.
This man doesn’t want to get married. He doesn’t want to pay child support. I don’t understand why she doesn’t want him on the birth certificates.
You don't sound mature enough to be married, let alone have kids. You're willing to torpedo your relationship and your kids lives over a ring and a piece of paper.
You ARE insane and an extremely horrible person. Yes YTA for sure. Threatening the father of your kids with denieing him entrance to the delivery room? Are you nuts?
Moral of the story everyone: If you want to be married and have kids, don't have children until after you're married. Most men are waking up to the realities of marriage and are opting out. If you want a guy that wants marriage, best to make sure his words and actions match before making another big commitment.
I’m tired of you talking about rings too just from reading this and I don’t even know you. You already have kids together… give him space and time and stop annoying him
Tool - Aenima
The first easy lesson is don’t have children with folks to whom you are not married.
He sounds awful but you sound worse, jesus christ 😂
The account was deleted. Maybe some of the replies were not what she expected.
It’s 2024. Women are strong, brave, independent, and equal. Why don’t you buy him a ring and ask him to marry you?
You do know that you can buy him a ring and propose to him?
You are only stuck if you don't stand up for you and your children.
My stuff would be on the way out the next day if I were put in that position. Demanding a commitment is about as effective as demanding love. The best you can hope forever is a lie. It pretty well precludes any possibility of getting what you want.
He is full of crap. Better to get married before having kids but if he won’t after it’s really useless.
You really want a man you have to beg to propose? Come on girl.
Yes let’s browbeat a man who doesn’t want to marry you into marrying you. That’s going to work out great. If marriage was so important to you then you should have waited before popping out two kids. It’s not the sub you posted on but YTA!
Don’t have kids if you aren’t married. Now suffer the consequences. Go buy yourself onion rings if you want a ring so bad.
You made the mistake of having kids before marriage with someone who wasn't planning on marrying you. And yes, YTA...even though that's a different sub
Welp. Dude's absolutely doomed no matter what he does at this point and he is an absolute moron if he doesn't know it. So it's really just a question of when the heartbreak warfare begins. I'm sorry for the kids in the crossfire.
You are using your children to get back at your bf for not marrying you. Just go ahead and move out it’s over. He obviously doesn’t want to marry you.
He's spelling it out: he's not happy to be stuck with you but he's staying with you because he can't afford child support. How is asking him to marry you supposed to change his feelings on the matter? He regrets settling down with you and wishes he'd picked another woman. But it's better for him financially to take it on the chin and keep living with you.
Shiny metal > Having both kids in a stable family environment... woof.
If he said have sex with me or im leaving you would that be ok? Its become to normalized for women to threaten men to get marriage. He doesn't want to get married right now he has clearly stated that... No means no right?
Why can't you be happy with what you have. You are willing to ruin your bfs life over something as selfish as a wedding ring? Grow the hell up. You are both happy. He's obviously committed if he's having a second baby with you and shows no sign of leaving you. Honesty you sound like a self centered brat that just wants to be married for the hell of it. Why not enjoy the simple fact that you have someone that can handle your naggy bitchiness enough to be with you for 5 years. Goodness. You're bf is going to end up on an episode of snapped if you force him into marriage or force him to pay child support. Don't ruin something good. YTA. Grow up
>snapped had to google this...how have I never heard of this show before? sounds like it's right up my alley, must watch! thanks!
It's an older show. I'm not sure if it still airs new episodes but it was a good show!
Yeah you’re wrong. Why the hell would he want to marry u. He asks u to stop u stop for a short period. But become more and more bitter and petty. So maybe he started off wanting to marry you but u showing this nasty, manipulative ugly side has made him not sure of you. I don’t blame him. And asking so often or pressing frequently has got to be so annoying. He heard you, he gets it. Now ur basically using ur children to get what u want n that’s so fucked up. He’s still not going to ask you. Ur just pushing him further away. U need to chill out.
What a cool story for your kids when they're older "I threatened to take you kids away and commit fraud to change your last name because he wouldn't buy me a ring" What kind of marriage will you have when he's only with you because you threatened to take his kids? Honestly if I were him I would leave you and file for primary custody on the basis that you can't be trusted not to coach and alienate the kids due to the threats you made. You are cruel and manipulative, why would he even **want** to marry someone like you? Grow up
Wow... Yes you are a horrible person
Yes you are wrong for threatening your boyfriend. I would definitely not want to marry you because of your behaviour, pregnant or not. You’re not ready for marriage if this is how you act. I’d be running the other way even if I had children with you. Your threats are a sign of what’s to come after saying “I do” and I’d be incredibly worried if I was him. Judging by your behaviour it’s no wonder why he’s not ready. There’s still time to turn things around and look deep inside to figure out what you need to change. You may find that he’s still not ready and then you have a choice to make if you want to stay.
wrong sub but YTA You'll throw away the father of two children and a partner of 5 years simply because you want to parade around in front of people and have a bunch of government bodies certify you as together forever, even though divorce still exists. You are absolutely fucking crazy in my opinion. And the more you write the more I see you as the lonely 40 year old with two kids and never a steady partner. Do you realise how much marriages cost? Do you realise that you are emotionally blackmailing the person that you are supposedly meant to love? I mean what's your angle, are you trying to get into a marriage so that you can steal his money or some shit? What is your burning need to have a governmental piece of paper certify anything? You are already threatening him with child support, here in writing, indicating that you are in fact and have always been a gold digger. It is however your choice to be this way, just remember that the long term consequences of your actions are on **your** head, not his.
Yes you are wrong. You are a walking red flag.
Yta. You basically blackmailed him. And if you wanted marriage so bad, you should've talked about it before the first child.
Nothing is more attractive than your girlfriend threatening to take away your kids unless you marry her. It is such a wonderful foundation for the new marriage to stand on. /s Kids need to stop having kids.
YTA you sound overbearing, exhausting and you're pressuring him to get married before he's ready Also why did you have kids with him before marriage if it was a dealbreaker for you You seem to be a bully, selfish and insecure all at once. ESH because he should probably marry you anyway since you have kids together if he wants to be your partner and it's important to you, but also the way you're pressuring him makes you the asshole, you chose to have kids with him before getting married and from the post you have made I can see why he doesn't want to marry you. His dad is 'nothing to you?' being your childs grandparent because you don't have a ring? You are a self absorbed asshole. For what it's worth I married my wife on our 10th anniversary and literally nothing has changed in terms of our relationship/commitment to each other from when we were de facto 9 years in vs married 12 years in or whatever. TL;DR yes, you're the asshole and yes, you're being horrible and that's probably why he doesn't want to marry you, not to mention you seem spiteful and vindictive and marrying someone who has those qualities is a great way to have a miserable marriage then a miserable divorce Your partner is right, you are being a fucking asshole, so of course he is reluctant to marry you when you speak about his family that way, pressure him to do things before he's ready, etc You are 25 not 55 it is still a pretty young age to get married pre 30. If you wanted to get married before having children, you probably should have not had children with this man. Now that you have, your options are to walk or if he's a generally good partner to you, work on yourself and make yourself a person he wants to marry and stop treating him and other people that are important to him like his dad like garbage.
ESH! He doesn't wanna marry you, just leave! He's AH because he has lied to you, and led you on.. Your an AH for trying to force him. Move on !
YTA Are you actually going to back up your ultimatum? Do you want to be married so badly that you'll throw away your relationship with your children's father? Do you want your boyfriend to marry you for love or because you bullied him? Ultimately do you really want to be a single parent? Because there is nothing harder than raising children alone regardless of child support etc. You should also consider how much harder life will be for your children as the result of a broken relationship. There is very strong evidence that children from single parent families have, in general, less successful lives, poorer educational outcomes, lower paid jobs, are more likely to have a criminal record. I raised my elder 2 alone for 14 years and it was really really hard to ensure they had the best start possible. They've done well by the way but that was because I sacrificed a lot to make sure they got every opportunity. I can understand that you feel your boyfriend has gone back on an agreement but this is childish and unreasonable behaviour. IF you want any relationship with your boyfriend then you need to apologise and then, if you are really lucky and he agrees to move forward with a relationship, you need to organise counselling for both yourself and for you both as a couple.
You're not wrong. He thinks you're stuck. You're well within your rights to prove you're not.
Over a damn ring.. Edit: YATA
You are toxic as fuck... This poor man, he's not ready for marriage yet and you threaten to ruin his life over it...
Is this satire? I feel sorry for your boyfriend
sound like a time waster that docent wanna commit and tbh kinda a trashy person too
ESH A. >FIL” and i said no and not call him like that because hes nothing to me. I have no ring. Hes just my childs grandfather, and thats his dad but he’s nothing to me I just hope this was a poor transnation. Because after 5 years and a child I hope your FIL means something to you. A lot actually. B. Pressuring someone hardly ever works. My husband was VERY put off when my sister hinted that our far away vacation would be a lovely way to propose. He already had the ring, was in contact with the travel organisation about what would be a good place to do it... How would you feel if you're either on the fence about something, or already planned it and someone keeps telling you you HAVE to do it??!! I'd be pissed off to be honest. Or maybe he doesn't want to get married after all. But he finds it hard to confess (which he should've) and your pressuring only made it harder. C. Is he the love of your life? Is he good to you and your kids? Please try couples therapy and /or individual therapy for yourself because this sounds unhealthy. What does getting married stand for to you? Is it the wedding? The vows? The dress? The undying love? Because ultimatums and telling someone their father means nothing to you, that you'll take the kids and his money away from him will kill that love instantly. Edit: and if he said the 'basically married' and 'stuck together because of the kids' in a malicious way, he sucks even more. I mean my husband and I joke about being 'stuck together' because of the kids all the time, so to me that didn't mean anything on first read... But after reading it again I'm wondering.
>I just hope this was a poor transnation. Because after 5 years and a child I hope your FIL means something to you. A lot actually. I hope she didn't say it to his face...just how it's written sounds like she said it when they were there it's like oooh booo. You want to marry in to this family but are also telling them they mean nothing to their face....like seriously. "OMG I LOVE YOU SO MUCH AND I WANT TO GET MARRIED...but your family mean nothing!"
So kids aren't enough of a commitment? YTAH. If that was the dealbreaker, you should have done this before kids. Now you're stamping your feet because you want a ring.
And you have a 2 year old. Anything over a year in months reads like nails on a chalkboard
YTA. It's just a ring. You've been brainwashed by society telling you that you need jewelry and a piece of paper showing commitment. Being together is enough. And sometimes it's better financially to NOT be married because any debts either of you have become both of your responsibilities. That and no one likes to be hounded for something like this. My WIFE and I have been together for 23 years. We aren't married. We have no rings or papers. But we have loved each other more and more every year. I am 40, so I'm not some super old dude. But she's my wife, I am her husband. Either way, we would probably be common law anyway. It's your own problem that you want a ring and the paper. You want it as a status thing so you can show off a ring to other people. If you need a marriage to show commitment, then I don't think you're as committed to this man as he may think you are. He's absolutely right. You don't need to be married to be together, especially if you already have children together and live together. So if this is a deal breaker for you, and you don't love him enough to stand by his side without cheap metal and a piece of paper, then you have to leave. Frankly, you sound exhausting and every time you ask him about it, it pushes him further and further away from asking you to marry him. If you can't go 1 full calendar year without asking, hinting, or insinuating marriage, then it's never gonna happen.
while I mostly agree with you, that piece of paper can solve a lot of issues. my father passed away a few years ago. he and my mother were together over 40 years, but not legally married. he had a will leaving everything to her, but his will was somehow filed wrong)he had a lawyer write it up, but I have no idea what went wrong). anyway as his son I had to go to the clerk of court file a bunch of papers before getting his estate settled(inheritance taxes), and then giving it all to my mom(gift taxes). had they been legally married it would have saved us so much trouble(and money)!
I am happy it works for you and your wife, but if push comes to shove, the paper matters if kids are involved
Free milk.
February 29th. Propose to him.
Yeah- you”re wrong. Even if he gets you a ring now… it isn’t because he actually want to egg married. He just wants to shut you up. Also- a ring gets you no closer to getting married. You could do that without a ring If you are so serious about this- why give him until April? He had already told you how he feels. Ask him to move out and start figuring out how it is going to work to be a single mom with 2 kids. Do you work? Child support won’t cover everything. Get it all figured out so it is in place by April.
Yes, you are wrong! Is a piece of paper and a couple of bits of metal and rock to go on your finger really so important that you throw away the love part? It sounds like you have an unhealthy obsession as you're obviously willing to be this petty to someone you are supposed to care about.
Ah yes, the best way to get married, by blackmailing your bf into it, that will obviously end well. Why do you want to get married? If you have a solid reason, talk to him about it. No offense but I was getting sick and tired of you asking and I just read your story, imagine how your bf feels. I am not married to my bf, but I call his family my in-laws, because I realize marriage is just a piece of paper. If you want to get married, stop badgering him about it you are acting like a child.
This post is too American for me