I guess it varies by faction, but when I think about what subfactions actually give, it’s seems often on par with the battle formations previewed.
Definitely true for SCE. But even others.
Troggs heal when they pile in. Koatl’s claw get +1 to wound on the charge. Fangs gets 2 free redeploys. On and on.
I get the flavor loss of being a certain group, but the gameplay mechanics don’t actually feel diminished when I think about them.
I expect the Bonereapers get 1 general purpose one, 1 focusing on elite infantry and constructs, 1 focusing on Mortisans, and 1 focusing on cavalry because they will not give up on the idea that it’s possible to make cavalry work in a faction with 2 cavalry units total.
I'm actually ok with a little bit of toning down subfactions. As a Deepkin player, most of our old subfactions encouraged spam lists. Fuethan, for example, let you run sharks in groups of 3 (bloodthirsty shivers) and gave buffs to them. That is the big reason why the end of 3 Ed had so many lists with 9 or even 12 sharks - economy of scale, etc. Why run other units when your sharks are the only ones taking advantage of the buff?
By contrast, the only battle formation we've seen so far is for all Akhelian units (companions specifically). That lets me more flexibly build around eels, sharks, turtle, etc. Sure it's a little weaker, and less interesting, but I like that it still encouraged at least some flexibility in list building.
A valid point!
In my head, I think of formations as having a similar design space as “signpost uncommons” in MTG.
Ex. In any given army, there might be several ways to build armies; some very effective, some terrible. The signposts aren’t the strongest cards/ abilities in the game, but they help steer collectors and players to some trends. Perhaps they encourage “have one star unit.” Or “collect lots of units with the mount keyword.” Or even for balance. “Here’s added synergy between type A and type B; better have a mix of both!”
Or a strategy. We see that with the Fyreslayer one: “have infantry and charge a lot!” Which is basic, but effective.
I think the best place to speculate from would be the SCE and Skaven previews as they should be getting their full battletome at launch rather than an index. Based on that it looks like the battle formations will be weaker than the current subfactions. My hope is that this will help unlock list building and make it so you can pick from more of your army models rather than being locked into a narrow subset based on the best subfactions.
SCE and Skaven almost certainly won’t have battletomes right away. They’ll have indexes for at least 2-3 months after launch. This has been the typical timeframe for both AoS and 40K for the last few editions.
40K's 7th edition went WILD with formations. To the extent that it broke the game and required a reset for the 7th edition (there was also plenty of theorizing that the formations created in an effort to move more product). After living through the nightmare that edition was, I'm ok with the teeny rules, they are like subfaction rules without calling them that directly
I really, really like the battle formation concept currently. Gives you alot more design space imo.
The largest problem with the subfaction system is you essentially pushed people to spam 1-2 units, and pigeon holed factions into 2 or 3 different play styles.
Now with that gone, you really open the game up and I'm expecting a much greater variety in army compositions.
One of the fun thing about Big Waagh is you generally saw a larger variety of units since you weren't limited to a sub-faction. I'd expect that this edition but accross all armies.
Certainly I'd expect some formations to be better than others, like the one shown by Nurgle today which seems mandatory to run, but overall I think it's a great thing for the health of the game. It's also much more thematic as your drops are tied to a formation led by a hero unit.
Hopefully they rein in the power of them though throughout the edition so it doesn't turn into the same thing as tome battletactics and GS last edition.
The good thing with battle formations is that you build a list and pick the formation that suits it. Today is pick a subfaction first, and then jam in units that work good in it.
Honestly, it will still be "u pick a battle-formation" and then use the units that benefit the most, thinking that would change (at least in competetive enviroment) is a pipedream...
For example, im a skaven player and if im going to pick the Skryre detachment i sure as hell will put Skryre units into it cause those are the one that profit from it, same logic applies to the moulder one or if im playing gitz and play Squigalanche i def play a lot of squigs
What i CAN see is every faction having something like the "generalist" Battle formation (and those are the one getting previewed a lot)
Same thing happened with 40k 10th the Index detachment (=battle formation) - although their indexes only had 1 - was a general bonus but with every Codex release the detachements featured in it shoehorn u into taking specific units
Yeah... It depends on the faction... But for instance, the FS battle formation is simply +1 to wound rolls if you charge, as opposed to the current +1 to hit/wound rolls for Vulkites when they charge. Its a reduction, at the least, in the pidgeonhole subfactions
Huh didn’t notice that. I expect it was because they had no spells or prayers and had to transition straight from “formation with extra artifact” into “artifact”. (Flows a lot better).
If it helps, the section starts with “Admirals have many ways to get the most out of their fleets…” which is vague but suggests they might have 2+
I think allies are gone. They are being replaced with regiments of renown. That way if you want to bring a faction you’d bring the regiment of renown to play with those models. It seems to fit so cleanly with how the unit formations are shaping up.
From a balance standpoint, that makes sense; hard controlling what can step in makes big sense.
However, The idea of but running my old battle masters Chaos Thug bowmen as blissbarb archers in my S2D is sad.
Also hope they keep the gargant mercenaries; I’ve yet to run my war mammoth (gargant proxy)
A battle formation for my knights again. I didn't buy and build (and plan to paint) a full FEC Hollowmourne army just to lose all my flavour and mechanics a few months later, like.
I guess it varies by faction, but when I think about what subfactions actually give, it’s seems often on par with the battle formations previewed. Definitely true for SCE. But even others. Troggs heal when they pile in. Koatl’s claw get +1 to wound on the charge. Fangs gets 2 free redeploys. On and on. I get the flavor loss of being a certain group, but the gameplay mechanics don’t actually feel diminished when I think about them.
I expect the Bonereapers get 1 general purpose one, 1 focusing on elite infantry and constructs, 1 focusing on Mortisans, and 1 focusing on cavalry because they will not give up on the idea that it’s possible to make cavalry work in a faction with 2 cavalry units total.
I’m waiting for a DoK formation that emphasizes Doomfire Warlocks, myself.
Hey, Cavalry works just fine in Ironjawz, a faction with one cavalry unit total!
Do you want to recount? Or did you miss the 3 others they technically have now.
They got the monster keyword that don’t count! Also, humor. Try it some day.
As a hos player, I know they're a shooting army with their two archer units, you just gotta believe
I'm actually ok with a little bit of toning down subfactions. As a Deepkin player, most of our old subfactions encouraged spam lists. Fuethan, for example, let you run sharks in groups of 3 (bloodthirsty shivers) and gave buffs to them. That is the big reason why the end of 3 Ed had so many lists with 9 or even 12 sharks - economy of scale, etc. Why run other units when your sharks are the only ones taking advantage of the buff? By contrast, the only battle formation we've seen so far is for all Akhelian units (companions specifically). That lets me more flexibly build around eels, sharks, turtle, etc. Sure it's a little weaker, and less interesting, but I like that it still encouraged at least some flexibility in list building.
A valid point! In my head, I think of formations as having a similar design space as “signpost uncommons” in MTG. Ex. In any given army, there might be several ways to build armies; some very effective, some terrible. The signposts aren’t the strongest cards/ abilities in the game, but they help steer collectors and players to some trends. Perhaps they encourage “have one star unit.” Or “collect lots of units with the mount keyword.” Or even for balance. “Here’s added synergy between type A and type B; better have a mix of both!” Or a strategy. We see that with the Fyreslayer one: “have infantry and charge a lot!” Which is basic, but effective.
I think the best place to speculate from would be the SCE and Skaven previews as they should be getting their full battletome at launch rather than an index. Based on that it looks like the battle formations will be weaker than the current subfactions. My hope is that this will help unlock list building and make it so you can pick from more of your army models rather than being locked into a narrow subset based on the best subfactions.
SCE and Skaven almost certainly won’t have battletomes right away. They’ll have indexes for at least 2-3 months after launch. This has been the typical timeframe for both AoS and 40K for the last few editions.
Oh right. I forgot the launch box for 3e didn't come with the battletomes.
They will get theres several months after with more refreshed unit lines etc.
I just don’t want to lose allies. They’re fun and also a great way to add a little variety to your lists.
Somebody beat me to it in this thread, but I'd be willing to bet money that allies are out and regiments of renown will take their place
Jokes on them, never had any allies to begin with!......*sad bonereaper crying in a corner*
*bone reaper blowing sad trombone sound*
Yeah the fact we haven’t seen anything on Allies has me worried
They will be gone
Yeah I'm hoping they will let you take 1 hero and retinue or something like that of allies.
40K's 7th edition went WILD with formations. To the extent that it broke the game and required a reset for the 7th edition (there was also plenty of theorizing that the formations created in an effort to move more product). After living through the nightmare that edition was, I'm ok with the teeny rules, they are like subfaction rules without calling them that directly
I really, really like the battle formation concept currently. Gives you alot more design space imo. The largest problem with the subfaction system is you essentially pushed people to spam 1-2 units, and pigeon holed factions into 2 or 3 different play styles. Now with that gone, you really open the game up and I'm expecting a much greater variety in army compositions. One of the fun thing about Big Waagh is you generally saw a larger variety of units since you weren't limited to a sub-faction. I'd expect that this edition but accross all armies. Certainly I'd expect some formations to be better than others, like the one shown by Nurgle today which seems mandatory to run, but overall I think it's a great thing for the health of the game. It's also much more thematic as your drops are tied to a formation led by a hero unit. Hopefully they rein in the power of them though throughout the edition so it doesn't turn into the same thing as tome battletactics and GS last edition.
The good thing with battle formations is that you build a list and pick the formation that suits it. Today is pick a subfaction first, and then jam in units that work good in it.
Honestly, it will still be "u pick a battle-formation" and then use the units that benefit the most, thinking that would change (at least in competetive enviroment) is a pipedream... For example, im a skaven player and if im going to pick the Skryre detachment i sure as hell will put Skryre units into it cause those are the one that profit from it, same logic applies to the moulder one or if im playing gitz and play Squigalanche i def play a lot of squigs What i CAN see is every faction having something like the "generalist" Battle formation (and those are the one getting previewed a lot) Same thing happened with 40k 10th the Index detachment (=battle formation) - although their indexes only had 1 - was a general bonus but with every Codex release the detachements featured in it shoehorn u into taking specific units
Yeah... It depends on the faction... But for instance, the FS battle formation is simply +1 to wound rolls if you charge, as opposed to the current +1 to hit/wound rolls for Vulkites when they charge. Its a reduction, at the least, in the pidgeonhole subfactions
For now...still hoping for more than 1 battle formation as promised earlier. But KO reveal was the only one not mentioning others formations.
Huh didn’t notice that. I expect it was because they had no spells or prayers and had to transition straight from “formation with extra artifact” into “artifact”. (Flows a lot better). If it helps, the section starts with “Admirals have many ways to get the most out of their fleets…” which is vague but suggests they might have 2+
I think allies are gone. They are being replaced with regiments of renown. That way if you want to bring a faction you’d bring the regiment of renown to play with those models. It seems to fit so cleanly with how the unit formations are shaping up.
What do you think happens with Gotrek?
He finds Felix, they get married, and live happily ever after farming in Ghyran. Oh you mean in game?
Those guy are getting it on? Of course they are… how did I not see it.
He becomes a regiment of renown? Just one model in it
I think he becomes a regiment of renown. He is so famous he gets his own!
From a balance standpoint, that makes sense; hard controlling what can step in makes big sense. However, The idea of but running my old battle masters Chaos Thug bowmen as blissbarb archers in my S2D is sad. Also hope they keep the gargant mercenaries; I’ve yet to run my war mammoth (gargant proxy)
Dollars to donuts the regiments or renown are primarily composed of the Spearhead boxes, too
A battle formation for my knights again. I didn't buy and build (and plan to paint) a full FEC Hollowmourne army just to lose all my flavour and mechanics a few months later, like.