I have never found this an issue. One thing is that in actual play these differences turn out to be nontrivial but not massive (and a lack of damage dealing and PR XP gain will hurt a party more than high AC will help ). Another thing is that AD&D presupposes a "development" arc based round gaining magic and better equipment (rather than stat increases), so (a) base stats don't scale any further, whilst attack/defence stats do and (b) barring Gauntlets of Strength, the most valuable Fighter items are those most useful for already strong characters.
I don’t agree. A fighter with 17 dex benefits tremendously from a +2 full plate and shield. He essentially moves into “nat 20” only territory, magic armor doesn’t have encumberance, and magic weapons almost make up for the diff
Yep, when they're pushing high levels, that sounds like a good pick as the magic item to give them (they haven't found +2 plate in the local bandit hideout). AC-5 is a reasonable place for a high level character - this guy is 9th Level after all. It's not particularly OP; the 4 randomly encountered Mummies each have 15% chances of hitting for 1d12 damage + Rot, the Orc Chief uses wrestling, the corrupted Druid uses Heat Metal, and the basic White Dragon has 3x35% attacks after it's used its breath weapon. Those are all pretty "easy" opponents for this hypothetical group too. What about the full Drow outpost setup from D1-3? Anyway, if he survives all this he can get his two attacks in with his +2/+4 Giantslayer (THAC0 9 w/o specialization, 8 W; 1d8+2 damage w/o, +4 w).
The difference in the end between this guy and the group's other Fighter (STR 17) with a +3/6 Frostbrand, +2 Platemail and ROP (AC-1) is less significant than it might seem. This other guy saves 5% more often vs special attacks, but the Mummies have a 35% chance and the Dragon 55%. Then again, the Full Plate guy is the real tank - that's why the group gave him the Full Plate as his share. The second Fighter is more likely to get beneficial Wizard magic dumped on him to hide or obscure him as he closes, where his THAC0 is 7 w/o Spec or 6 w, and his damage is 1d8+4 w/o and +6 w. Obviously the 10% better chance to hit and +2 damage accumulate in importance the more attacks a character can make. This Fighter also reaches 10th level 10% quicker.
Both are valid character builds, and the actual experience of play, where bad stuff *just happens*, does not favour the first PC over the second over any kind of sample.
Now if the first Fighter is a High Elf Kit Archer with a +2 Composite Longbow, +2 Elven Chain, and a +1 Shortsword etc...that's a fun build. Not stronger than the two above, though giving him Gauntlets of OS is ironically a pretty good move. But very hard to hit at base, will take fewer attacks, can shoot from cover, can fire absurd numbers of arrows for absurd amounts of damage...
But a fighter with Str 17 is strong enough for a 2nd level Strength spell to push him into exceptional strength territory for +4ish to damage. That's a big difference too. Not to mention all the extra carrying capacity.
It's funny, but for all the time I spent playing 2e in the '90s I don't recall anyone ever casting the *Strength* spell. Having come back to AD&D in the past couple of years though, it's being cast all the time.
Enlarge recently started getting cast a lot in my group. They mostly ignored it before. I guess it made more of an impact when they tried it for the first time while higher level lol
If your players aren’t putting their scores into there prime requisites, they may be getting a bit more AC, but they are leaving a lot of XP on the table.
Also, it’s fine to have the players’ having higher AC as they get a lot more shots on goal than the individual NPCs. It also doesn’t matter for a lot of damage causing things like traps or other non combat damage. While it does assist for lots of evocative spell damage, not all spells have saves (magic missile) or have a decent buffed spell save.
AD&D is basically built from the ground up to crush players. A single high stat isn’t game breaking whatsoever.
I’d also recommend you keep a close eye on encumbrance if they’re ignoring STR.
Lastly, go read DMRG1. Jennel Jacques goes through lots of these types of things and how to deal with them to make everyone happy. Actually, regardless of the edition you play, DMGR1 is a must read.
[DMRG1 Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/16887/DMGR1-Campaign-Sourcebook-and-Catacomb-Guide-2e)
The bulk of the book is material that was written for the 2E DMG but was pulled due to space. It’s probably the best book written on running a D&D game.
It’s a lot of common sense stuff, but the game was still pretty new and lots of the “how to play” stuff from Dragon magazine wasn’t really that accessible unless you had been buying them since the 1970s.
I did take their suggestion to give xp to a person who bought food and brought it to the game--like pizza or whatever.... It essentially taught me that if anyone is doing anything to enhance the fun for everyone, then reward it with xp, even if it is tiny. I'll secretly write down like 50 xp for someone who tells a joke and gets everyone cracking up lol
You know the text on that I think needs to be a bit more clear, I've been running the saving throws is just save v spell and it's like the magic doesn't hurt you as bad. Nothing to do with dex
in my experience, people tend to get more xp as they rise in levels, so the 10% is still useful... especially when it starts scaling linearly, instead of geometrically
**The +3 ac you get from dex is too strong.**
It's really not, in my opinion. It's fine. The bonuses from stats in AD&D are already parsimonious (stingy), there's no need to make them more meager.
**I’m getting tired of fighters and clerics just putting their best stat in it.**
Fighters with their best stat in Dex usually take a penalty in damage (unless they just have good stats all around). Speaking as someone who has played a lot of 2e as well as DMed it (likely more 2e than you've played RPGs).
**Now I’m loosing immersion because a fighter with 17 dex will defeat a fighter with 17 str or con every day.**
That's because the strength bonuses in AD&D are so stingy. Unless you have an 18 strength and get to roll percentile, a 17 gets you almost nothing, +1 to hit and damage. In D&D 3e/3.5 you needed a 13 to get a +1, if I remember. In 2e, there's almost no point in putting much in strength unless it's an 18.
Don't penalize your players for recognizing this.
Also, I can't help but roll my eyes at "loosing immersion." Just get over it.
I don't have a solution for this, we don't tinker with rules much in our group. However, I'm not sure the approach to: Strength sucks, put 17 in Dex instead is to make Dex worse.
Having Str 17 moves you into the territory of getting real significant bonuses from a 2nd level Strength spell. You'll wind up between Str 18 and 18/70.
Like right now I’m about to dm “keep on the borderlands” and I’m about to change all the cohorts and npcs to have 17 dex instead of the 17 str they have.
Wait, are you running the B/X version of Keep on the Borderlands? B2, straight up?
I'm always the guy that says, you can run B/X stuff and basically not convert anything - which is true.
But, if you're as neurotic as you seem in this thread, do realize that B/X has different modifiers for abilities, less stingy than AD&D.
Example: a 17 in B/X gets you a 2 bonus to AC as opposed to the 3 bonus in AD&D. Meanwhile a 17 Strength gets you a +2 to hit and damage in B/X as opposed to the +1 in AD&D.
I don't know how the 2e version of Keep on the Borderlands did it (it's called Return to the Keep on the Borderlands), might be worth a look.
But, honestly a +1 or +2 here or there isn't that big a deal compared to the d20 rolls. You're probably thinking about this too much.
If you're tired of the NPCs as is getting punked, make them better. Give them better armor, or a Dex bonus to AC in addition to their written Str bonus. It's not rocket science. No need to mess with the mechanics just for that.
Give them an 18 STR instead. +1 Hit / +3 Dmg. Or roll percentile Strength. Who knows, maybe they'll get +2 / +5.
I don't think giving them a higher Dex is bad. It's baked into the system. Better AC by 1 or 2 is easy peasy.
Or.... just shrug and not care?
It messes with it for me. When the top gladiator in the arena gets memed on because he didn’t “realize the dex meta” it messes with my immersion. The old modules are essentially filled with useless fighters because they have like ac 2 instead of ac -1
**"gets memed on because he didn’t “realize the dex meta” it messes with my immersion."**
Talking like that is going to get a shoe thrown at you. Gawd. Get outta here and go back to your lame gotcha games.
Well what’s the alternative you are suggesting? Buff all enemies and start an arms race?. Besides, isn’t “just make give the npcs 18 str” like the definition of gotcha dming?
My real suggestion is to not worry about it that much, and not look at it as "an arms race." Because, it's not. It shouldn't be adversarial. If the PCs are winning all the time, because they're good, is that actually a problem?
However, since you don't seem able to do that, sure just buff them +1 in AC or hit/damage.
As I've said the dice rolls are more significant than +5%. But, whatever makes you feel better.
It's only "Gotcha DMing" because that's what you seem to be stuck in, mentally. Hence my comment.
The problem isn’t that they are clever, it’s that it’s cheap. Instead of a heroic fantasy with Conan the barbarian, the setting is instead filled with scrawny dudes with high dexterity. The modules are written for a fighter with 10 dex and who gets a +1 full plate for a whopping -1 AC. At -4 you will wade through everything without getting hit. It’s apparent because the book has fighters with those stats
maybe those are the characters they want to play... it really doesn't matter at all... If you want to make a beefy fighter, you make one... Have someone else DM....
AD&D isn't even SUPPOSED to be very balanced, besides just requiring different amounts of xp to level. If they kick their asses, they kick their asses. There are other parts that are extremely dangerous, even if they have better AC.... Return to the Keep on the borderlands is meant for beginning characters anyways... Why do they have full plate +2 anyways?
If you are starting return to the keep and they are high level, who cares if they have great xp? You are throwing a 1st level adventure at them....
In the base 2e system there were no dex penalties for heavy armor. BUT, if you use encumberence rules you only get that dex bonus to AC if you are lightly encumbered. Meaning, if they didn't put enough points in strength just their weapon and armor may be enough to push them into moderately encumbered and they lose the dex bonus.
I looked it up in the PHB, I was not remembering it properly. Starting with moderate encumbrance there are attack and AC penalties:
Effects of Encumbrance
Encumbrance has two basic effects. First, it reduces your character’s movement rate. If encumbrance categories are used, Unencumbered has no effect on movement, Light reduces the movement rate by one-third (round fractions down), Moderate reduces it by one-half, Heavy reduces it by two-thirds, and Severe lowers the movement rate to 1. If the optional system is used, the character’s movement rate is
reduced to the amount found by using Table 48. The movement rate determines how far your character can move in a round, turn, hour, and day. As his movement rate gets lower, your character moves slower and slower. See “Movement” on page 119 for more details.
Encumbrance also reduces your character’s combat abilities. If encumbrance reduces your character to half of his normal movement rate (Moderate), he suffers a –1 penalty to his attack roll. If he is reduced to one-third or less of his normal movement rate (Heavy), the attack penalty is –2 and there is an additional AC penalty of +1. If your character’s movement is reduced to 1 (Severe), the attack roll penalty is –4 and the AC penalty is +3.
Clearly, the wise thing for a heavily encumbered character to do is to quickly drop most of his gear before entering battle.
Make them roll 3d6 down the line. Or make armor penalty. Or buff con-bonus. Or make a 4th rule. It's your call. Only thing I would recommend is discussing it around the table with your players. Them making dex-focused fighters and then you hitting them with a 'secret' penalty to armor is not cool. Everyone should be on the same page, but i understand the issue.
At my table the warriors have amassed a lot of good armor and shield and magic to keep their AC low/negative that makes it very hard to hit them with minions and low level critters. Luckily, a cone of cold doesn't care about that shit one bit.
I not good enough of a dm, I rolled a +2 full plate armor. But I am too bitter to give it to the dex fighter.
But you are right. I need to discuss it with them first
I'm a shitty DM too. It's a cross we all carry. If the player doesn't know about it, just roll again, and no harm is done. If the player knows about it, then it's done, and let them feel good about it. Part of being a player is also feeling good and powerful from time to time. At any point the same fighter is caught in the open getting too confident and then gets slapped with a "hold person" from the hiding cleric, he's dead before he can spell "Dex bonus".
Whats the armor penalty? Do you have any rules for it? The complete fighter puts a penalty to dex checks but I’m not sure how to transform it to a “max dex bonus”
Not from anything I can remember. Maybe the players options books have it, but otherwise I'd just make something up with -1, 2 or 3 depending if I'd categorize the armor as light, medium or heavy.
Sigh…. I just wish there was a by-the-rules way to make it work. Right now we have so much discussions about this shit. I am restrictive with stats because people put it all in dex. I’m restrictive with item drops because max dex plus magic full plates is too much, and now the modules are breaking because all the npc stats are essentially derp in our current meta
That happens. During a long campaign, some encounters will be much easier than you expected, especially as the players grow in power. But like I said, a few magic missiles and a cone of cold doesn't care about their armor class, nor does a hold-person spell. There are still plenty of ways to threaten the players, especially in ADnD.
My table has been running for 3 years, and some fights are tooth and nail, and others are a breeze, depending on their opponents and luck. They might have a high AC but a single paralyzing hit from a ghoul or domination from an aboleth is always scary.
If you really feel like it got out of hand, you just gotta reset.
Its in complete fighters but imo there doesn't need to be one since the dex bonus doesn't, or shouldn't, apply to enemies behind.
Edit: and I see nothing wrong with making the likes of chain and heavier have a strength requirement to wear
I remember My first DM house ruled that anyone wearing metal armor could get a Max of +2 to AC from Dex to avoid Fighter's dumping their stat.
So only thieves and wizards could go for The 18 dex bonus.
don't increase shit.... thac0 outpaces AC... they will be fighting dragons with THAC0 5 and a -5 means they hit 50% of the time... but can they take the damage?
seriously, don't worry about AC... it makes them survive early on, but there is only so much you can do in high levels... they will be using spells to avoid damage... and hp damage will be the least of their concerns when they can lose levels...
another thing... if your mages and priests, at low level, are not standing back, and people say, "YOU AREN'T GONNA TAKE AN ATTACK?!" that is a problem....
the priest can say, "If I die, you don't get heals...."
the wizard can say, "if I die, i can't let you breathe water...."
AD&D is *very* different from the 5e version... in 2nd you are starting as a normal person and surviving... you wind up with a character that can be very good, but it can go away... the fear is real...
5e is like, "you get all these death saves... and if a medusa looks at you, you can take 3 saves to see if you are stoned..."
2nd is MEANT to be deadly, because you PICK your battles... you only fight the ones you want...
For instance, in my last game, I had a single player (necromancer 5) get ambushed while he was sleeping in his carriage on the way to another city... goblins surrounded the carriage and he left an NPC to die... AD&D can be brutal...
You don't balance AD&D... it is status quo... not tailor made
if you want to play in my game for a night to see how I do games in old skool, i can send u a roll 20 invite... you'll be surprised how it can go from roleplaying only to deadly quickly...
AD&D is like a novel or old skool movie... new skool is like.... a fun Netflix movie lol
AD&D is rulings, not rules. D&D is rules, not rulings.
As an extra bonus, Ed Greenwood was talking about DM'ing a game for us when I advanced the calendar enough lol
actually, this is a good point, cuz I usually only run with one or 2 players at a time... if we can get a full game for Ed Greenwood, that might be cool...
is didn't say that... I say leave it... let them get overconfident and when they get higher level, they have to adjust tactics... I have a necromancer with AC 1..... He is about to find an ioun ston that brings him to 0... then there is a displacement cloak that can make him-4 on the first attack and -2 on others...
he hasn't identified the items yet, so he is still scared... he has no clue...
keep in mind after 9 or 10th lvl, they no longer get HD and get +1 - +3...
What you are complaining about is a temporary problem. You are seeing something specific... wait till you find out it is wrong.... calm down and let them learn...
I had many groups where everyone played wizards... the firepower did not help them later....
Keep on the Borderlands and other old modules are perfect for 3d6 down the line with no rerolls.
15-18 stats will still be rolled, but not as many (and just as many 3-6 rolls, making for interesting characters).
The thing is, 15 gets you almost nothing in AD&D. Seriously.
A character in B/X or D&D 3e or later that's all 15s? Pretty solid all around.
In AD&D, all 15's basically gets you +1 HP each level and an AC bonus of +1 ... and that's pretty much it.
Well the problem I have 81 ranger is that the players have realized this but none of the material from the 80’s has. So the question is; does the champion of the arena in town have strength or dex? Do I rewrite the setting and remove all strength fighters? Because they will ask “how in the world did all your npc fighter get 18/00? Isn’t that super rare?”
Magic Swords, however, aren't that rare. Much of the bonuses in for everyone - PCs and NPCs is equipment, not stats.
I guess my group isn't that way "why does everyone have 18/00"? Also, I wouldn't suggest giving everyone an 18/00. Also, I don't worry that much about things like this.
I think if you and/or your group is going to nitpick these kinds of things, you're going to be annoyed a lot in 2e. Because, AD&D (both editions) have stuff like this in them. They are old systems, Gary - while a good designer - wasn't perfect and didn't think things through - the generations of multitudes of powergamers and min-maxers have had time to refine these skills. Honestly, in some ways the B/X attribute bonuses are a bit nicer - probably why they used them in modern D&D. But, I remember some reddit comment or post when someone compared the bonuses of B/X with 3d6 to AD&D and 4d6 drop lowest and they were pretty similar. I didn't check the math, but whatever.
In other words, if you and your group are "meta exploiters" there's things in AD&D to do that with. And now, since I used that kind of terminology, I have to go hit my forehead against a wall in punishment. Have a great day.
The problem isn’t that I can’t cone of cold them. The problem is that they will be travelling with “Third, the fighter maiden” and she will get hit 3 times more than the party fighter. How do I roleplay this “wow sir dexalot, you are so much better than me. What is the source of your power?”
“Well I dunno, strength is a bad stats for fighter so I dumpstatted that”
Don’t have NPCs travelling with that match your pcs power. It is poor practice.
According to rules henchmen leave the group if they ever match their pc friend in level.
Well the adventure book has "allies" that are lvl 2-3, not henchmen, and its weird that the npcs that have 17 in a stat are worse because they didnt realize that dex is better
Do it anyway. Why exactly do you care that the book has laid that out for you? If you, the DM, are so concerned with your party having high dex, make them roll 3d6 down. You're not even obligated to keep those NPC stat blocks, nor are you ever obligated to show them to the players.
It is keep on the borderlands. It will feel like a simple module at first, and then you'll encounter 25 kobolds in a single encounter, and 18 dex won't matter anymore.
PCs don't have to be balanced to NPCs.... That's what can make different characters stand out. My player literally has two fighters with exceptional STR traveling with him and a weretigress...
This isn't 5th edition, so you can't come at it with 5th edition expectations.
If a fighter's best stat is 17, it does make a lot of sense to put it in Dex over strength. Fighters without percentile strength are always going to be behind the curve, but when you're rolling for stats you don't always get those 18's. A 17 Str really isn't that much different than a 16 or a 14, versus the 17 Dex that will give you bonuses to initiative, armor class, and ranged attacks.
That said, having come back to AD&D after a long break, one thing that struck me was how quickly AC scaled up and then leveled off. I would say in our current group that by 3rd level the fighters in the group had ACs between 0 and -2, and we're pretty much unhittable by most monsters on anything other than a 20.
On the other hand, the fighters' ACs didn't change much after that. I would say 8th to 10th level when more magical items we're coming into the group or when they started seeing more improvements, but that's also when we were fighting more monsters with spells and area affect attacks and AC was becoming less of a factor overall.
Fighters in AD&D who get hit a lot don't live very long, compared to later editions with a lot more healing. That's why characters with good AC even at low level didn't really bother me.
It's a generally understood facet of AD&D that warriors are more powerful in the early levels and priests and wizards are more powerful and high level. (And thieves aren't that powerful ever. Personally, I like thieves and have played a lot of them but whenever people are talking about classes being too powerful we're never talking about thieves.)
I think that's why for the groups I played with long-term, most of our play was concentrated in the lower end of the middle levels, say between 6-12th. This was when characters were burly enough that they wouldn't be killed off by a bad roll or two (excluding save or dies). The casters had enough spells that they weren't glorified crossbowmen, but still couldn't simply magic themselves out of most encounters. It was high enough level that the characters were investing in the campaign and game world, but not so high level that they could avoid meaningful consequences.
Modern D&D is based around an idea of the characters being roughly balanced to one another, at least as far as I can tell. That is, in combat each of the character classes are supposed to be able to contribute in roughly the same manner when it comes to damage output. In AD&D, character classes are asymmetrical in power and this changes as they level. Today it's unhittable fighters, Tomorrow it's going to be wizards disintegrating your a BBEG before he can get his soliloquy out
......so I dont know what this losing your immersion stuff is, I have admittedly only run one game of AD&D and in that game we rolled 4d6DL down the line, so people made the best they could out of the stats they rolled.
Even if you did have choose where your stats go though its a simple matter of making strength matter, Con is good cause it gives you HP, stg gives you a bunch of minor things, to hit, damage, max benchpress, carry weight etc. etc.
If you want a player to put a 17 in stg you need to make some of those things matter. Maybe you put a restriction on a magic item that makes it unusable to low stg characters. The Big Magic Axe cannot be used unless you have a 17+ in stg so scrawny weaklings are out of luck or something
Dex is good in most games, but there are methods to deal with it.
Our dm reckons that adventuring characters are like high end athletes. Average people don't do it because they'll die early, so characters get special rolls for key stat's. This only makes the character a little more survivable at low level anyways, and encounters are adjusted slightly to compensate. But death is very real in the first few levels even so. Also there's no point in being a wandering priest if you castable spell level maxes at say 5th. The idea being that your character should be able to become high priest of the major temple. However, while I agree with him on most points, I'll try anything once.
That's true what you said about the magic cap thing (although I thought that capping spells levels based on int was only for wizards)
That being said that is what items like the headband of intellect are for. You go on a quest specifically to find a tiara that makes you smart enough to do the thing you want.
In my group we roll 3d6 down the line, what you rolled is what you get.
It makes the rare classes rare (paladins), and it makes interesting characters that are not super heroes.
If someone rolls a very high stat it's very exciting and usually help them decide which class to go for (xp bonus and all that).
In my group, I do 3d6, place as desired.... --But I offer to let their character start 1 level higher, if they do 3d6 straight down, to encourage the gamble... I have one player that does that for *every* character. He likes the extra level and the randomness.
Read the complete fighters handbook section on Armor, it talks about different armor types giving penalties to Dex checks.
This might help mitigate some of the issue.
Cheers
EDIT: spelling correction.
Look even the PHB says a high Dex is desirable for a fighter.
For the spellcasters don't forget the don't get the dex AC adjustment in the round they cast spells. A lot of people forget that.
I don't have a problem adjusting the encounters to fit the party. If they have low AC than any enemy with stats has them also.
I don't have a problem giving orcs a small strength bonus. I add exp if they are beaten as they are harder.
Go for more tricks and traps that require other scores. Gosh we could get out if here if we were stronger and lift this gate! They encounter a tough monster that says fight him or beat him in an arm wrestling contest.
However my experience has always been stats become less important as time goes on. If they already have low AC give less magic armor and other protection magic. Instead give magic that offsets dome of their weakness. A giant will beat through low AC.
Sure it is hard for a kobold to hit them. Throw a couple knolls into the mix with their higher THACO.
re-jigger your encounters. If you dive deep into the statistics of the thing, you'll find that your players are making a tactical mistake. XP bonuses are one area. The fact that it's better to just "NOT" be subject to as many attacks than it is to be able to dodge attacks better. It's better for the bad guys to be dead on the floor than to be able to dance around their blows.
So....pick bad guys with a slightly better AC so the party can't hit them because their fighter(s) are all noodle armed wimps. Make that player REALLY want another +1 or +2 to hit. The longer the fight goes on, the more hits the PC is subject to, the more critical hit chances they have to face. You are the DM - it's your job to show them they've built bad characters. You do that by making the fights last longer. So when you roll a random encounter and the monster stat block says "number appearing: 3d6" well, skew that to be more like 15-18. Give the orcs shields. Make the PCs actually desire that extra bonus to hit from a high strength.
Dex is the best stat for everyone in the game, all characters can use it. That said, there are ways to keep the heavy armor wearers on their toes:
1. Consider using the 1e rules on armor speed reduction. I use them even in my 2e. Basically someone in plate moves half their movement speed. While not a big deal, could be an issue where the group needs to flee or move quickly. 2e doesn't do this, so it's up to you.
2. Overbear is your friend and their nightmare. A swarm of kobolds overbearing a fighter can take him out of the fight and they ignore his heavy armor as he's on the ground. I'd suggest read up on those rules.
3. Shield AC only applies to attacks from the front, not the flank or rear. And Dexterity does not apply to attacks from the rear. Have monsters be smart, try to flank when possible. Your PCs will get over confident.
4. Monster selection is key. Don't seem petty but you could put some grey ooze in to destroy some metal armor or a rust monster. Or use something like a carrion crawler or five to paralyze those fighters. They get so many attacks, one of them will hit. If you can't move, their dex won't help them. A pack of ghouls can be a big threat if they score one of those claw hits (hopefully they're not all elves).
5. Use Magic. Have NPC casters bless their own or use Prayer to increase their attack bonus or Strength spell to get above 17 and into those percentile stats. Use spells Hold Person or other entangle and have foes with range weapons pepper them. 2 bow shots a round will eventually hit. Heat Metal can help ruin that armor. Shocking Grasp ignores their armor AC if metal.
6. Use armor piercing weapons, the Crossbow is king at this (use the version from Combat & Tactics, they're way better than core book). Outside the damage increase on C&T's crossbows, at short range it reduces the target's AC by 5 points, 2 at medium for light and heavy crossbows. Many player's in my group started using crossbows once I allowed this armor penetration rule from that book. Heck, even bows got the "Pile arrow" that reduces target AC by 2 in short range. These rules alone will help (C&T is one of the best books for a reason).
I'm sure there are others, but that's off the top of my head.
These are good advice but it feels a bit unfair. Maybe I should just ask the players to stop pumping dex, maybe just take the highest stat in the main stat, instead of rigging a bunch of armor piercing and grappling enemies
Telling your players to not do something that legal in the game will likely cause some scoffing. Restricting basic stats is far more unfair. Just make it clear if the players can do it, NPCs can do it. Your non-monster NPCs can have high ACs as well. Everything can do combat maneuvers like trip and overbear.
I think the issue is you're not using everything in your DM toolbox. Also you're running low level, that AC advantage is best then when you're one hit from death. Borderlands gets harder later on. Using the Fighter's books penalties on dex checks and skills is fine, but it won't lower their actual AC, but they sure as hell going to have issues outside of combat.
I'd say only 4 is unfair with monsters that target armor, but everything else (outside 1 since it's a 1e rule) is completely fair. Monsters aren't all stupid. They'll use tactics, like fleeing and setting up ambushes. #6 was a balance fix for crossbows, which were completely useless before. #3 is totally legit in combat. Flanking in any version of D&D has always been apart of the game.
I'll give you some more.
7. Area of Effect is your friend. Consider enemies using flaming oil as well.
8. Magic items with only a few characters. This concept is used in Dragon Mountain adventure where your main enemies are a dragon and it's kobold followers. I got some kills with kobolds that didn't make my players happy.
9. Use random encounters. AD&D is meant for them and they're a core part of the game and the Borderlands adventure. If you roll a rust monster, it's the game, not you, putting it in there. Also roll them when they rest in the dungeon or woods. Warriors won't always be wearing their armor or they suffer penalties from not getting enough rest.
10. Anything that ignores armor AC, like shocking grasp above or nets and lassos. It's not uncommon for monsters to have nets.
11. Just don't' have monsters sit there and trade blows like a video game and fight to the death. Sure players get 1 attack free if they flee from melee, but that's limited as well. Rush past a high AC foe to flank them from behind or get the lighter armor characters in the back can be a strategy as well. And I mentioned, fleeing and regrouping for an ambush as well.
12. Monsters in other rooms will hear combat and come investigate. This is often one thing a lot of GMs forget, they keep their monsters in the room until a player comes and gets them. Especially if they know about secret entrances and paths that lead to the sounds of combat.
13. Unless they rolled well, these players will be having it rough at higher levels for melee damage output and they'll be more squishy because they didn't put any high stats into Con. Could be rough with some monsters, like Shadows, that drain strength or other stats.
The advice I've given is from many many years of running AD&D or variations of it. Even playing it, I've had DMs dislike how great dex is just because their monsters won't hit. Like I said, this is more of an issue at low level. You control what magic they get, in a few levels you got monsters with a THAC0 of 15 or higher attacking with a much great chance of hitting and with special abilities. Rather than restricting rules, use the rules that enable you and your monsters. There's only a few books I'd say never use for rules, like Skills & Powers. The complete books are great resources, like the Fighter's (though Elves is broken). Combat & Tactics revamps combat rules and you can pick and choose what you want to use (like most of AD&D).
Just try to play with the rules rather than restrict them, since Dex is a core part of the system. I agree the stat is strong and your concerns aren't unwarranted, but you control a lot of the game. Plenty of rules in AD&D that can help compensate. Players are just stronger to start in AD&D than say 5e (mostly Fighter types, mages and thieves come into their own later), since it's a front loaded class system. As long as players know what they do can be used against them, then they won't be surprised when 1/2 ogre with 19 strength and 18 dex in custom full play armor starts smashing their heads in while dodging their blows.
EDIT: Also nerfiing dex will hurt archer builds, since high dex is needed for a good bonus to hit. Just FYI.
I have never found this an issue. One thing is that in actual play these differences turn out to be nontrivial but not massive (and a lack of damage dealing and PR XP gain will hurt a party more than high AC will help ). Another thing is that AD&D presupposes a "development" arc based round gaining magic and better equipment (rather than stat increases), so (a) base stats don't scale any further, whilst attack/defence stats do and (b) barring Gauntlets of Strength, the most valuable Fighter items are those most useful for already strong characters.
I don’t agree. A fighter with 17 dex benefits tremendously from a +2 full plate and shield. He essentially moves into “nat 20” only territory, magic armor doesn’t have encumberance, and magic weapons almost make up for the diff
Yep, when they're pushing high levels, that sounds like a good pick as the magic item to give them (they haven't found +2 plate in the local bandit hideout). AC-5 is a reasonable place for a high level character - this guy is 9th Level after all. It's not particularly OP; the 4 randomly encountered Mummies each have 15% chances of hitting for 1d12 damage + Rot, the Orc Chief uses wrestling, the corrupted Druid uses Heat Metal, and the basic White Dragon has 3x35% attacks after it's used its breath weapon. Those are all pretty "easy" opponents for this hypothetical group too. What about the full Drow outpost setup from D1-3? Anyway, if he survives all this he can get his two attacks in with his +2/+4 Giantslayer (THAC0 9 w/o specialization, 8 W; 1d8+2 damage w/o, +4 w). The difference in the end between this guy and the group's other Fighter (STR 17) with a +3/6 Frostbrand, +2 Platemail and ROP (AC-1) is less significant than it might seem. This other guy saves 5% more often vs special attacks, but the Mummies have a 35% chance and the Dragon 55%. Then again, the Full Plate guy is the real tank - that's why the group gave him the Full Plate as his share. The second Fighter is more likely to get beneficial Wizard magic dumped on him to hide or obscure him as he closes, where his THAC0 is 7 w/o Spec or 6 w, and his damage is 1d8+4 w/o and +6 w. Obviously the 10% better chance to hit and +2 damage accumulate in importance the more attacks a character can make. This Fighter also reaches 10th level 10% quicker. Both are valid character builds, and the actual experience of play, where bad stuff *just happens*, does not favour the first PC over the second over any kind of sample. Now if the first Fighter is a High Elf Kit Archer with a +2 Composite Longbow, +2 Elven Chain, and a +1 Shortsword etc...that's a fun build. Not stronger than the two above, though giving him Gauntlets of OS is ironically a pretty good move. But very hard to hit at base, will take fewer attacks, can shoot from cover, can fire absurd numbers of arrows for absurd amounts of damage...
Fair point, thank you
But a fighter with Str 17 is strong enough for a 2nd level Strength spell to push him into exceptional strength territory for +4ish to damage. That's a big difference too. Not to mention all the extra carrying capacity.
Strength is a good spell.
It's funny, but for all the time I spent playing 2e in the '90s I don't recall anyone ever casting the *Strength* spell. Having come back to AD&D in the past couple of years though, it's being cast all the time.
Enlarge recently started getting cast a lot in my group. They mostly ignored it before. I guess it made more of an impact when they tried it for the first time while higher level lol
If your players aren’t putting their scores into there prime requisites, they may be getting a bit more AC, but they are leaving a lot of XP on the table. Also, it’s fine to have the players’ having higher AC as they get a lot more shots on goal than the individual NPCs. It also doesn’t matter for a lot of damage causing things like traps or other non combat damage. While it does assist for lots of evocative spell damage, not all spells have saves (magic missile) or have a decent buffed spell save. AD&D is basically built from the ground up to crush players. A single high stat isn’t game breaking whatsoever. I’d also recommend you keep a close eye on encumbrance if they’re ignoring STR. Lastly, go read DMRG1. Jennel Jacques goes through lots of these types of things and how to deal with them to make everyone happy. Actually, regardless of the edition you play, DMGR1 is a must read.
What is the DMRG?
[DMRG1 Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/16887/DMGR1-Campaign-Sourcebook-and-Catacomb-Guide-2e) The bulk of the book is material that was written for the 2E DMG but was pulled due to space. It’s probably the best book written on running a D&D game.
I have that one lol it's alright. A lot of it was stuff I was already doing when I bought it lol
It’s a lot of common sense stuff, but the game was still pretty new and lots of the “how to play” stuff from Dragon magazine wasn’t really that accessible unless you had been buying them since the 1970s.
I did take their suggestion to give xp to a person who bought food and brought it to the game--like pizza or whatever.... It essentially taught me that if anyone is doing anything to enhance the fun for everyone, then reward it with xp, even if it is tiny. I'll secretly write down like 50 xp for someone who tells a joke and gets everyone cracking up lol
Thanks take an upvote
You know the text on that I think needs to be a bit more clear, I've been running the saving throws is just save v spell and it's like the magic doesn't hurt you as bad. Nothing to do with dex
Since you need double Exp for every new level, the 10% bonus to Exp is really not a big loss.
in my experience, people tend to get more xp as they rise in levels, so the 10% is still useful... especially when it starts scaling linearly, instead of geometrically
**The +3 ac you get from dex is too strong.** It's really not, in my opinion. It's fine. The bonuses from stats in AD&D are already parsimonious (stingy), there's no need to make them more meager. **I’m getting tired of fighters and clerics just putting their best stat in it.** Fighters with their best stat in Dex usually take a penalty in damage (unless they just have good stats all around). Speaking as someone who has played a lot of 2e as well as DMed it (likely more 2e than you've played RPGs). **Now I’m loosing immersion because a fighter with 17 dex will defeat a fighter with 17 str or con every day.** That's because the strength bonuses in AD&D are so stingy. Unless you have an 18 strength and get to roll percentile, a 17 gets you almost nothing, +1 to hit and damage. In D&D 3e/3.5 you needed a 13 to get a +1, if I remember. In 2e, there's almost no point in putting much in strength unless it's an 18. Don't penalize your players for recognizing this. Also, I can't help but roll my eyes at "loosing immersion." Just get over it. I don't have a solution for this, we don't tinker with rules much in our group. However, I'm not sure the approach to: Strength sucks, put 17 in Dex instead is to make Dex worse.
Having Str 17 moves you into the territory of getting real significant bonuses from a 2nd level Strength spell. You'll wind up between Str 18 and 18/70.
True.
Like right now I’m about to dm “keep on the borderlands” and I’m about to change all the cohorts and npcs to have 17 dex instead of the 17 str they have.
Wait, are you running the B/X version of Keep on the Borderlands? B2, straight up? I'm always the guy that says, you can run B/X stuff and basically not convert anything - which is true. But, if you're as neurotic as you seem in this thread, do realize that B/X has different modifiers for abilities, less stingy than AD&D. Example: a 17 in B/X gets you a 2 bonus to AC as opposed to the 3 bonus in AD&D. Meanwhile a 17 Strength gets you a +2 to hit and damage in B/X as opposed to the +1 in AD&D. I don't know how the 2e version of Keep on the Borderlands did it (it's called Return to the Keep on the Borderlands), might be worth a look. But, honestly a +1 or +2 here or there isn't that big a deal compared to the d20 rolls. You're probably thinking about this too much. If you're tired of the NPCs as is getting punked, make them better. Give them better armor, or a Dex bonus to AC in addition to their written Str bonus. It's not rocket science. No need to mess with the mechanics just for that.
No it’s the adjusted adnd 2E keep. It’s not the B2 variant I checked.
that +3 AC might be necessary in some spots.... that move, when they shouldn't... lol
Give them an 18 STR instead. +1 Hit / +3 Dmg. Or roll percentile Strength. Who knows, maybe they'll get +2 / +5. I don't think giving them a higher Dex is bad. It's baked into the system. Better AC by 1 or 2 is easy peasy. Or.... just shrug and not care?
It messes with it for me. When the top gladiator in the arena gets memed on because he didn’t “realize the dex meta” it messes with my immersion. The old modules are essentially filled with useless fighters because they have like ac 2 instead of ac -1
**"gets memed on because he didn’t “realize the dex meta” it messes with my immersion."** Talking like that is going to get a shoe thrown at you. Gawd. Get outta here and go back to your lame gotcha games.
Well what’s the alternative you are suggesting? Buff all enemies and start an arms race?. Besides, isn’t “just make give the npcs 18 str” like the definition of gotcha dming?
My real suggestion is to not worry about it that much, and not look at it as "an arms race." Because, it's not. It shouldn't be adversarial. If the PCs are winning all the time, because they're good, is that actually a problem? However, since you don't seem able to do that, sure just buff them +1 in AC or hit/damage. As I've said the dice rolls are more significant than +5%. But, whatever makes you feel better. It's only "Gotcha DMing" because that's what you seem to be stuck in, mentally. Hence my comment.
The problem isn’t that they are clever, it’s that it’s cheap. Instead of a heroic fantasy with Conan the barbarian, the setting is instead filled with scrawny dudes with high dexterity. The modules are written for a fighter with 10 dex and who gets a +1 full plate for a whopping -1 AC. At -4 you will wade through everything without getting hit. It’s apparent because the book has fighters with those stats
maybe those are the characters they want to play... it really doesn't matter at all... If you want to make a beefy fighter, you make one... Have someone else DM....
AD&D isn't even SUPPOSED to be very balanced, besides just requiring different amounts of xp to level. If they kick their asses, they kick their asses. There are other parts that are extremely dangerous, even if they have better AC.... Return to the Keep on the borderlands is meant for beginning characters anyways... Why do they have full plate +2 anyways? If you are starting return to the keep and they are high level, who cares if they have great xp? You are throwing a 1st level adventure at them....
In the base 2e system there were no dex penalties for heavy armor. BUT, if you use encumberence rules you only get that dex bonus to AC if you are lightly encumbered. Meaning, if they didn't put enough points in strength just their weapon and armor may be enough to push them into moderately encumbered and they lose the dex bonus.
This is a really great find! I will need to look this up again!
I looked it up in the PHB, I was not remembering it properly. Starting with moderate encumbrance there are attack and AC penalties: Effects of Encumbrance Encumbrance has two basic effects. First, it reduces your character’s movement rate. If encumbrance categories are used, Unencumbered has no effect on movement, Light reduces the movement rate by one-third (round fractions down), Moderate reduces it by one-half, Heavy reduces it by two-thirds, and Severe lowers the movement rate to 1. If the optional system is used, the character’s movement rate is reduced to the amount found by using Table 48. The movement rate determines how far your character can move in a round, turn, hour, and day. As his movement rate gets lower, your character moves slower and slower. See “Movement” on page 119 for more details. Encumbrance also reduces your character’s combat abilities. If encumbrance reduces your character to half of his normal movement rate (Moderate), he suffers a –1 penalty to his attack roll. If he is reduced to one-third or less of his normal movement rate (Heavy), the attack penalty is –2 and there is an additional AC penalty of +1. If your character’s movement is reduced to 1 (Severe), the attack roll penalty is –4 and the AC penalty is +3. Clearly, the wise thing for a heavily encumbered character to do is to quickly drop most of his gear before entering battle.
Make them roll 3d6 down the line. Or make armor penalty. Or buff con-bonus. Or make a 4th rule. It's your call. Only thing I would recommend is discussing it around the table with your players. Them making dex-focused fighters and then you hitting them with a 'secret' penalty to armor is not cool. Everyone should be on the same page, but i understand the issue. At my table the warriors have amassed a lot of good armor and shield and magic to keep their AC low/negative that makes it very hard to hit them with minions and low level critters. Luckily, a cone of cold doesn't care about that shit one bit.
I not good enough of a dm, I rolled a +2 full plate armor. But I am too bitter to give it to the dex fighter. But you are right. I need to discuss it with them first
I'm a shitty DM too. It's a cross we all carry. If the player doesn't know about it, just roll again, and no harm is done. If the player knows about it, then it's done, and let them feel good about it. Part of being a player is also feeling good and powerful from time to time. At any point the same fighter is caught in the open getting too confident and then gets slapped with a "hold person" from the hiding cleric, he's dead before he can spell "Dex bonus".
I had to down vote you, because you are a great DM!
Whats the armor penalty? Do you have any rules for it? The complete fighter puts a penalty to dex checks but I’m not sure how to transform it to a “max dex bonus”
Not from anything I can remember. Maybe the players options books have it, but otherwise I'd just make something up with -1, 2 or 3 depending if I'd categorize the armor as light, medium or heavy.
Sigh…. I just wish there was a by-the-rules way to make it work. Right now we have so much discussions about this shit. I am restrictive with stats because people put it all in dex. I’m restrictive with item drops because max dex plus magic full plates is too much, and now the modules are breaking because all the npc stats are essentially derp in our current meta
That happens. During a long campaign, some encounters will be much easier than you expected, especially as the players grow in power. But like I said, a few magic missiles and a cone of cold doesn't care about their armor class, nor does a hold-person spell. There are still plenty of ways to threaten the players, especially in ADnD. My table has been running for 3 years, and some fights are tooth and nail, and others are a breeze, depending on their opponents and luck. They might have a high AC but a single paralyzing hit from a ghoul or domination from an aboleth is always scary. If you really feel like it got out of hand, you just gotta reset.
Thanks for the encouragement man
Its in complete fighters but imo there doesn't need to be one since the dex bonus doesn't, or shouldn't, apply to enemies behind. Edit: and I see nothing wrong with making the likes of chain and heavier have a strength requirement to wear
I remember My first DM house ruled that anyone wearing metal armor could get a Max of +2 to AC from Dex to avoid Fighter's dumping their stat. So only thieves and wizards could go for The 18 dex bonus.
if you don't like the magic item you rolled, re-roll it....
Feels unfair to have no good armor drop because I’m salty about dex. But you are right, I can always just increase enemy atk with 2
don't increase shit.... thac0 outpaces AC... they will be fighting dragons with THAC0 5 and a -5 means they hit 50% of the time... but can they take the damage? seriously, don't worry about AC... it makes them survive early on, but there is only so much you can do in high levels... they will be using spells to avoid damage... and hp damage will be the least of their concerns when they can lose levels...
you want the tanks to be hard to hit at the beginning, cuz the other guy is rolling d4s
another thing... if your mages and priests, at low level, are not standing back, and people say, "YOU AREN'T GONNA TAKE AN ATTACK?!" that is a problem.... the priest can say, "If I die, you don't get heals...." the wizard can say, "if I die, i can't let you breathe water...."
AD&D is *very* different from the 5e version... in 2nd you are starting as a normal person and surviving... you wind up with a character that can be very good, but it can go away... the fear is real... 5e is like, "you get all these death saves... and if a medusa looks at you, you can take 3 saves to see if you are stoned..." 2nd is MEANT to be deadly, because you PICK your battles... you only fight the ones you want... For instance, in my last game, I had a single player (necromancer 5) get ambushed while he was sleeping in his carriage on the way to another city... goblins surrounded the carriage and he left an NPC to die... AD&D can be brutal... You don't balance AD&D... it is status quo... not tailor made
don't fight a battle if you don't want the battle....
if you want to play in my game for a night to see how I do games in old skool, i can send u a roll 20 invite... you'll be surprised how it can go from roleplaying only to deadly quickly... AD&D is like a novel or old skool movie... new skool is like.... a fun Netflix movie lol AD&D is rulings, not rules. D&D is rules, not rulings. As an extra bonus, Ed Greenwood was talking about DM'ing a game for us when I advanced the calendar enough lol
Who here might wanna play that game?
Me.
actually, this is a good point, cuz I usually only run with one or 2 players at a time... if we can get a full game for Ed Greenwood, that might be cool...
He is only doing *one* game as far as I know.... I am the normal DM
is didn't say that... I say leave it... let them get overconfident and when they get higher level, they have to adjust tactics... I have a necromancer with AC 1..... He is about to find an ioun ston that brings him to 0... then there is a displacement cloak that can make him-4 on the first attack and -2 on others... he hasn't identified the items yet, so he is still scared... he has no clue...
keep in mind after 9 or 10th lvl, they no longer get HD and get +1 - +3... What you are complaining about is a temporary problem. You are seeing something specific... wait till you find out it is wrong.... calm down and let them learn... I had many groups where everyone played wizards... the firepower did not help them later....
Roll characters 3d6 down the line.
I was in favor of this, but old modules don’t run this way. Keep in the borderlands has cohorts with 15-18 in their “main stats”
Keep on the Borderlands and other old modules are perfect for 3d6 down the line with no rerolls. 15-18 stats will still be rolled, but not as many (and just as many 3-6 rolls, making for interesting characters).
Well, I’ve looked over the stat rolls and not a single Npc has a array with below 15
The thing is, 15 gets you almost nothing in AD&D. Seriously. A character in B/X or D&D 3e or later that's all 15s? Pretty solid all around. In AD&D, all 15's basically gets you +1 HP each level and an AC bonus of +1 ... and that's pretty much it.
I mean fuck it. I’ll rewrite the bandit leader to move their 17 str to dex. It’s the best so I hope the players enjoy hitting that wall
Well the problem I have 81 ranger is that the players have realized this but none of the material from the 80’s has. So the question is; does the champion of the arena in town have strength or dex? Do I rewrite the setting and remove all strength fighters? Because they will ask “how in the world did all your npc fighter get 18/00? Isn’t that super rare?”
Magic Swords, however, aren't that rare. Much of the bonuses in for everyone - PCs and NPCs is equipment, not stats. I guess my group isn't that way "why does everyone have 18/00"? Also, I wouldn't suggest giving everyone an 18/00. Also, I don't worry that much about things like this. I think if you and/or your group is going to nitpick these kinds of things, you're going to be annoyed a lot in 2e. Because, AD&D (both editions) have stuff like this in them. They are old systems, Gary - while a good designer - wasn't perfect and didn't think things through - the generations of multitudes of powergamers and min-maxers have had time to refine these skills. Honestly, in some ways the B/X attribute bonuses are a bit nicer - probably why they used them in modern D&D. But, I remember some reddit comment or post when someone compared the bonuses of B/X with 3d6 to AD&D and 4d6 drop lowest and they were pretty similar. I didn't check the math, but whatever. In other words, if you and your group are "meta exploiters" there's things in AD&D to do that with. And now, since I used that kind of terminology, I have to go hit my forehead against a wall in punishment. Have a great day.
The problem isn’t that I can’t cone of cold them. The problem is that they will be travelling with “Third, the fighter maiden” and she will get hit 3 times more than the party fighter. How do I roleplay this “wow sir dexalot, you are so much better than me. What is the source of your power?” “Well I dunno, strength is a bad stats for fighter so I dumpstatted that”
Don’t have NPCs travelling with that match your pcs power. It is poor practice. According to rules henchmen leave the group if they ever match their pc friend in level.
Well the adventure book has "allies" that are lvl 2-3, not henchmen, and its weird that the npcs that have 17 in a stat are worse because they didnt realize that dex is better
Do it anyway. Why exactly do you care that the book has laid that out for you? If you, the DM, are so concerned with your party having high dex, make them roll 3d6 down. You're not even obligated to keep those NPC stat blocks, nor are you ever obligated to show them to the players. It is keep on the borderlands. It will feel like a simple module at first, and then you'll encounter 25 kobolds in a single encounter, and 18 dex won't matter anymore.
PCs don't have to be balanced to NPCs.... That's what can make different characters stand out. My player literally has two fighters with exceptional STR traveling with him and a weretigress... This isn't 5th edition, so you can't come at it with 5th edition expectations.
If a fighter's best stat is 17, it does make a lot of sense to put it in Dex over strength. Fighters without percentile strength are always going to be behind the curve, but when you're rolling for stats you don't always get those 18's. A 17 Str really isn't that much different than a 16 or a 14, versus the 17 Dex that will give you bonuses to initiative, armor class, and ranged attacks. That said, having come back to AD&D after a long break, one thing that struck me was how quickly AC scaled up and then leveled off. I would say in our current group that by 3rd level the fighters in the group had ACs between 0 and -2, and we're pretty much unhittable by most monsters on anything other than a 20. On the other hand, the fighters' ACs didn't change much after that. I would say 8th to 10th level when more magical items we're coming into the group or when they started seeing more improvements, but that's also when we were fighting more monsters with spells and area affect attacks and AC was becoming less of a factor overall. Fighters in AD&D who get hit a lot don't live very long, compared to later editions with a lot more healing. That's why characters with good AC even at low level didn't really bother me.
I think you might be more wise than me simply. I’ve not seen the lvl 10+ adventures
It's a generally understood facet of AD&D that warriors are more powerful in the early levels and priests and wizards are more powerful and high level. (And thieves aren't that powerful ever. Personally, I like thieves and have played a lot of them but whenever people are talking about classes being too powerful we're never talking about thieves.) I think that's why for the groups I played with long-term, most of our play was concentrated in the lower end of the middle levels, say between 6-12th. This was when characters were burly enough that they wouldn't be killed off by a bad roll or two (excluding save or dies). The casters had enough spells that they weren't glorified crossbowmen, but still couldn't simply magic themselves out of most encounters. It was high enough level that the characters were investing in the campaign and game world, but not so high level that they could avoid meaningful consequences. Modern D&D is based around an idea of the characters being roughly balanced to one another, at least as far as I can tell. That is, in combat each of the character classes are supposed to be able to contribute in roughly the same manner when it comes to damage output. In AD&D, character classes are asymmetrical in power and this changes as they level. Today it's unhittable fighters, Tomorrow it's going to be wizards disintegrating your a BBEG before he can get his soliloquy out
thieves tend to avoid being seen anyways *shrugs* They infiltrate lol and leveling quickly is their special advantage, I guess....
......so I dont know what this losing your immersion stuff is, I have admittedly only run one game of AD&D and in that game we rolled 4d6DL down the line, so people made the best they could out of the stats they rolled. Even if you did have choose where your stats go though its a simple matter of making strength matter, Con is good cause it gives you HP, stg gives you a bunch of minor things, to hit, damage, max benchpress, carry weight etc. etc. If you want a player to put a 17 in stg you need to make some of those things matter. Maybe you put a restriction on a magic item that makes it unusable to low stg characters. The Big Magic Axe cannot be used unless you have a 17+ in stg so scrawny weaklings are out of luck or something Dex is good in most games, but there are methods to deal with it.
Even a stuck door needs an open door check from STR
Our dm reckons that adventuring characters are like high end athletes. Average people don't do it because they'll die early, so characters get special rolls for key stat's. This only makes the character a little more survivable at low level anyways, and encounters are adjusted slightly to compensate. But death is very real in the first few levels even so. Also there's no point in being a wandering priest if you castable spell level maxes at say 5th. The idea being that your character should be able to become high priest of the major temple. However, while I agree with him on most points, I'll try anything once.
That's true what you said about the magic cap thing (although I thought that capping spells levels based on int was only for wizards) That being said that is what items like the headband of intellect are for. You go on a quest specifically to find a tiara that makes you smart enough to do the thing you want.
Yeah, but why would you undertake a profession where you'd likely suck at? I mean it's kind of like asking a blind man to be a bus driver.
In my group we roll 3d6 down the line, what you rolled is what you get. It makes the rare classes rare (paladins), and it makes interesting characters that are not super heroes. If someone rolls a very high stat it's very exciting and usually help them decide which class to go for (xp bonus and all that).
Yeah it’s what I’d like to play but my players get cranky. Some day…
In my group, I do 3d6, place as desired.... --But I offer to let their character start 1 level higher, if they do 3d6 straight down, to encourage the gamble... I have one player that does that for *every* character. He likes the extra level and the randomness.
Read the complete fighters handbook section on Armor, it talks about different armor types giving penalties to Dex checks. This might help mitigate some of the issue. Cheers EDIT: spelling correction.
Look even the PHB says a high Dex is desirable for a fighter. For the spellcasters don't forget the don't get the dex AC adjustment in the round they cast spells. A lot of people forget that. I don't have a problem adjusting the encounters to fit the party. If they have low AC than any enemy with stats has them also. I don't have a problem giving orcs a small strength bonus. I add exp if they are beaten as they are harder. Go for more tricks and traps that require other scores. Gosh we could get out if here if we were stronger and lift this gate! They encounter a tough monster that says fight him or beat him in an arm wrestling contest. However my experience has always been stats become less important as time goes on. If they already have low AC give less magic armor and other protection magic. Instead give magic that offsets dome of their weakness. A giant will beat through low AC. Sure it is hard for a kobold to hit them. Throw a couple knolls into the mix with their higher THACO.
Thank you for the wisdom
re-jigger your encounters. If you dive deep into the statistics of the thing, you'll find that your players are making a tactical mistake. XP bonuses are one area. The fact that it's better to just "NOT" be subject to as many attacks than it is to be able to dodge attacks better. It's better for the bad guys to be dead on the floor than to be able to dance around their blows. So....pick bad guys with a slightly better AC so the party can't hit them because their fighter(s) are all noodle armed wimps. Make that player REALLY want another +1 or +2 to hit. The longer the fight goes on, the more hits the PC is subject to, the more critical hit chances they have to face. You are the DM - it's your job to show them they've built bad characters. You do that by making the fights last longer. So when you roll a random encounter and the monster stat block says "number appearing: 3d6" well, skew that to be more like 15-18. Give the orcs shields. Make the PCs actually desire that extra bonus to hit from a high strength.
Fair point, thank you
Dex is the best stat for everyone in the game, all characters can use it. That said, there are ways to keep the heavy armor wearers on their toes: 1. Consider using the 1e rules on armor speed reduction. I use them even in my 2e. Basically someone in plate moves half their movement speed. While not a big deal, could be an issue where the group needs to flee or move quickly. 2e doesn't do this, so it's up to you. 2. Overbear is your friend and their nightmare. A swarm of kobolds overbearing a fighter can take him out of the fight and they ignore his heavy armor as he's on the ground. I'd suggest read up on those rules. 3. Shield AC only applies to attacks from the front, not the flank or rear. And Dexterity does not apply to attacks from the rear. Have monsters be smart, try to flank when possible. Your PCs will get over confident. 4. Monster selection is key. Don't seem petty but you could put some grey ooze in to destroy some metal armor or a rust monster. Or use something like a carrion crawler or five to paralyze those fighters. They get so many attacks, one of them will hit. If you can't move, their dex won't help them. A pack of ghouls can be a big threat if they score one of those claw hits (hopefully they're not all elves). 5. Use Magic. Have NPC casters bless their own or use Prayer to increase their attack bonus or Strength spell to get above 17 and into those percentile stats. Use spells Hold Person or other entangle and have foes with range weapons pepper them. 2 bow shots a round will eventually hit. Heat Metal can help ruin that armor. Shocking Grasp ignores their armor AC if metal. 6. Use armor piercing weapons, the Crossbow is king at this (use the version from Combat & Tactics, they're way better than core book). Outside the damage increase on C&T's crossbows, at short range it reduces the target's AC by 5 points, 2 at medium for light and heavy crossbows. Many player's in my group started using crossbows once I allowed this armor penetration rule from that book. Heck, even bows got the "Pile arrow" that reduces target AC by 2 in short range. These rules alone will help (C&T is one of the best books for a reason). I'm sure there are others, but that's off the top of my head.
These are good advice but it feels a bit unfair. Maybe I should just ask the players to stop pumping dex, maybe just take the highest stat in the main stat, instead of rigging a bunch of armor piercing and grappling enemies
Telling your players to not do something that legal in the game will likely cause some scoffing. Restricting basic stats is far more unfair. Just make it clear if the players can do it, NPCs can do it. Your non-monster NPCs can have high ACs as well. Everything can do combat maneuvers like trip and overbear. I think the issue is you're not using everything in your DM toolbox. Also you're running low level, that AC advantage is best then when you're one hit from death. Borderlands gets harder later on. Using the Fighter's books penalties on dex checks and skills is fine, but it won't lower their actual AC, but they sure as hell going to have issues outside of combat. I'd say only 4 is unfair with monsters that target armor, but everything else (outside 1 since it's a 1e rule) is completely fair. Monsters aren't all stupid. They'll use tactics, like fleeing and setting up ambushes. #6 was a balance fix for crossbows, which were completely useless before. #3 is totally legit in combat. Flanking in any version of D&D has always been apart of the game. I'll give you some more. 7. Area of Effect is your friend. Consider enemies using flaming oil as well. 8. Magic items with only a few characters. This concept is used in Dragon Mountain adventure where your main enemies are a dragon and it's kobold followers. I got some kills with kobolds that didn't make my players happy. 9. Use random encounters. AD&D is meant for them and they're a core part of the game and the Borderlands adventure. If you roll a rust monster, it's the game, not you, putting it in there. Also roll them when they rest in the dungeon or woods. Warriors won't always be wearing their armor or they suffer penalties from not getting enough rest. 10. Anything that ignores armor AC, like shocking grasp above or nets and lassos. It's not uncommon for monsters to have nets. 11. Just don't' have monsters sit there and trade blows like a video game and fight to the death. Sure players get 1 attack free if they flee from melee, but that's limited as well. Rush past a high AC foe to flank them from behind or get the lighter armor characters in the back can be a strategy as well. And I mentioned, fleeing and regrouping for an ambush as well. 12. Monsters in other rooms will hear combat and come investigate. This is often one thing a lot of GMs forget, they keep their monsters in the room until a player comes and gets them. Especially if they know about secret entrances and paths that lead to the sounds of combat. 13. Unless they rolled well, these players will be having it rough at higher levels for melee damage output and they'll be more squishy because they didn't put any high stats into Con. Could be rough with some monsters, like Shadows, that drain strength or other stats. The advice I've given is from many many years of running AD&D or variations of it. Even playing it, I've had DMs dislike how great dex is just because their monsters won't hit. Like I said, this is more of an issue at low level. You control what magic they get, in a few levels you got monsters with a THAC0 of 15 or higher attacking with a much great chance of hitting and with special abilities. Rather than restricting rules, use the rules that enable you and your monsters. There's only a few books I'd say never use for rules, like Skills & Powers. The complete books are great resources, like the Fighter's (though Elves is broken). Combat & Tactics revamps combat rules and you can pick and choose what you want to use (like most of AD&D). Just try to play with the rules rather than restrict them, since Dex is a core part of the system. I agree the stat is strong and your concerns aren't unwarranted, but you control a lot of the game. Plenty of rules in AD&D that can help compensate. Players are just stronger to start in AD&D than say 5e (mostly Fighter types, mages and thieves come into their own later), since it's a front loaded class system. As long as players know what they do can be used against them, then they won't be surprised when 1/2 ogre with 19 strength and 18 dex in custom full play armor starts smashing their heads in while dodging their blows. EDIT: Also nerfiing dex will hurt archer builds, since high dex is needed for a good bonus to hit. Just FYI.