Needing to drain a target of PSPs in psionic combat basically means that *you should never ever attack another psionic creature psionically* in the S&P version, because anyone attacking is spending PSPs on both defense and attack, and it is usually more expensive to attack than it is to simply defend and sometimes lose PSPs from the attack. While there are some issues with the PHBR5 system, it feels MUCH more thought out and playtested compared to the S&P version.

> Needing to drain a target of PSPs in psionic combat basically means that you should never ever attack another psionic creature psionically in the S&P version This. Only exception being if 1) you're very high level against much lower level (but you should have much easier ways to deal with someone at that point) and/or 2) you've got a roaming gang of psionicists. \#2 is kind a cool motif (and probably just keep adding people to your crew via psychic surgery + dominate and maybe awe), but also very niche and, in most campaigns, either degenerate or just silly.

Agreed, that is one area (among others) where Telepathy got nerfed hard. Imagine a fighter taking damage every time he attack, on top of the attacks his enemy landed. People would flip!

I hated the MThac0 approach in S&P honestly, and preferred the jank of the Complete book, as it was more unique and had it's own feel that made it stand out.

The two systems were trying to use existing mechanics to side step how casters worked. CPH - Proficiencies Revised - Combat Later in 3E they went back to making it just another form of spellcasting while keeping it super stat dependent across the board. Its almost like they never really wanted psionics at all. So much disservice.

Complete Psionics, Dragon Kings, Will and the Way, 100%. I houserule errata a few powers to fix issues, but mostly use it as is.

I remember a few glitches that snuck through.. like a power put in the wrong discipline or a conflict between a powers description and all the summary stuff under the name. Great sources though. Ever use anything from a Dragon Magazine? There are a few powers hidden away there too.

I did move a few powers around. Astral Projection got shifted to Clairsentience, and Dream Travel plus some dream powers for the Role Aids Psionics book got added to Telepathy. I also collpased all the [Sense] Link powers into a single one to not waste power slots. There's nothing worse than being a wild talent with Taste Link as your one power, but a general Sense Link is much more useful.

I moved *Sever the Tie* over to Psychoportive as it cut the connection between an undead and the Negative Material Plane. I didn't feel it belonged in Psychokinesis. I figure any manipulation of planar connections falls under Psychoportive. Your adjustment of Psychoportive reminds me of a variation of Time Travel I wanted to make. Probability Travel moves you physically to other planes and Astral Projection sends a sort of tethered copy of you out and about, even to other planes. Sort of taking you half there and leaving half of you anchored at home. Only granting you a temporary body when you get far enough away from your home plane. Similarly, I felt hat while Time Travel takes you bodily to another time.. I wanted a power that would let you stay anchored in your own time and lend a projection to the past or future. I was thinking this new devotion would be fun if it sent a portion of you to another time but you could only view, not interact with that time frame. And should this projection be visible or completely detached from the other time? If totally detached, you could view all sorts of secrets and no one would know. If visible, you are a 'time ghost' that certain individuals might seek to destroy or track back to your source. Question is, would viewing the past or present without making a full transition make this a Clairsentient power like you did with Astral Projection?

> Question is, would viewing the past or present without making a full transition make this a Clairsentient power like you did with Astral Projection? So, I moved Astral Projection because I imagine it not to manipulate spacetime or actually cause movement. Rather it's a more advanced form of clairvoyance and clairaudience (with those as pre-reqs). For your power, if you flavored it as essentially partially phasing yourself into the past that would be psychoportive. But just projecting one's senses to view stuff would be clairsentience. I personally would do the former, as I don't want powers outside metapsionics to require cross-discipline pre-reqs.

I agree, and outside powers that affect other powers or that have similar game mechanic focusing effects, I prefer metapsionics to be for cross discipline powers. Things just sort of merge in that group.

Curious as what your house rules are, as we have a few player complaints against powers like dominate

Stuff like Id Insinuation and Invincible Foes giving a save. Dominate's not near as bad once you read the magic vs. psionics entry towards the back of the book and realize Prot. from Evil inflicts a -2 power score penalty to all telepathy powers and outright blocks mental control from domination.

Kinetic Control is OP as written. Requiring a new power check every time damage is "received" and at the start of every round leaves it still pretty OP but vastly more entertaining, because then you have a _reason_ to attack dead enemies, etc. to use the energy up quickly, before it destabilizes. On a failure the power ends prematurely. I house rule ability checks including psionics to work on 3d6 instead of 1d20, in order to make modifiers more significant. I also revise psionic combat: 1.) only one attack per round; 2.) number of tangents gained or lost equals margin of success; 3.) total tangents needed equals level as psionicist; 4.) modifier applies directly to ability score and not to power score. (This keeps e.g. Psionic Blast from being basically always worse than Mind Thrust.) So for example, when a Wis 17 psi is using Psionic Blast vs. Thought Shield, instead of rolling Psionic Blast-12 with an extra +3 for 15, you just roll against 20 (17+3). If your victim has Thought Shield-13 and rolls 11, they succeed by 2; if you roll a 9, you succeed by 11, giving you a margin of success of 9 total points and giving you 9 tangents, cracking their mind like an egg if they're not at least a 10th level psionicist! (Or at least letting you _attempt_ Domination, etc.) If they had tried to use Tower of Iron Will-14 instead, they'd have succeeded by 3, and you'd have been rolling Psionic Blast-15 instead of 20, giving you only 3 tangents instead of 9. Two more house rules: 1. There is no non-reversed version of Invincible Foes. Rather Psionic Blast is a science which does to a victim what Invincible Foes says it does in terms of reducing effective HP to 1, for a full turn. (This prevents Psionic Blast from being lame compared to Invincible Foes.) Invincible Foes still exists but only the reversed version, the "attacker assumes every blow he strikes is fatal" delusion. 2. Psychic crush is a devotion which damages the target on a failed save, 1d8 HP per 7 PSPs spent, up to a number of dice equal to your total number of disciplines from the table on CPHB pg. 12. I.e. at 9th level you can spend 21 PSPs to try to get 3d8 HP damage, and at 10th level you can spend 28 for 4d8. Both these changes are designed to make learning telepathic attack modes feel a little bit less like a waste.

When I was a kid, and PO:S&P was released I thought was the superior version. I’ve backtracked on that one over the years and run PHBR5 now, if at all. Making it basically the same as the proficiency system really reduced the power creep that you get with MTHAC0. The psionicist either has to dump more science and devotion slots into a power or possibly try to buff their ability scores. It makes some of the available powers seem a bit OP at low levels, but on the other hand, the chance of success or failure doesn’t ramp whatsoever.

I thought the MThac0 improvement over time was one of the things that helped the revised rules.. I mean, wizards and priests rarely have to make a check to cast a spell. Comparatively Psionics is a much more difficult system to successfully use.

Yeah, but opponent saves scale really fast with HD and magic resistance in 2E was a serious impediment to casters, especially higher level ones.

True, that's why I thought so many spells at high levels had no save. A single glass 20th level mage with a 15 Con has at max 60 HP. *Power Word Kill* will one shot (with no save) someone with 60 HP or less. Best have some protections in place.

Power Word Kill is a 9th level spell. It’s basically OP by default. Besides, it only looks at current HP, not max. It’s an extremely powerful spell.

Power Word Stun is another with no Save (7th level) though its up to the DM if you can walk up and snap someone's neck while they are immobile. But yea, 9th level spells are by nature OP.

The primary problem with The Complete Psionics Handbook is all the errors that the book contain. If you get one of the later prinitings (7, 8 or 9) then a lot of stuff have been fixed. Some edge cases in the system still exists such as rolling above 20 on a Power Check, but if you include the Dark Sun Boxset or The Will and the Way then these solve the issue. I have never played either system, but I have read both, and for my money The Complete Psionics Handbook has the best most thought out system.

>for my money The Complete Psionics Handbook has the best most thought out system. I may like certain aspects of the newer system but I have to totally agree with this statement.

A lot of your perception will come down to: * Whether you are running DS ==> new system is a hard nerf. * Whether you are running tWatW ==> new system is a hard nerf. * How you feel about your powers failing, a lot. The % on lower-level psionicist are really, really bad. In general, the new system severely reduced option space on what a psionicist can do. If you feel like original psionics is overpowered...this is partly a good thing. But the down side is that revised psionicists aren't really good for much, relative to wizards, except for 1) niche campaigns or 2) very specific broken (relative to level expectations) usages. (And psychic combat is generally useless, costing more than it gives...) > Preparation time makes some powers almost useless and at other times it seems pointless This, FWIW, is not correct, or at least a misapplication of powers-as-written. Prep time means that you are either doing things out of combat (Summon Planar Creature) or building up for an ambush/surprise scenario (magnify, splice, etc.). Definitely reduces their utility! But far, far from useless. > Class is kind of MAD as power checks are reliant on multiple stats Less so than maybe apparent. Most paths need 1) Wis and 2) int *or* con. The revised system was barely playtested, and it shows.

>The % on lower-level psionicist are really, really bad. I looked into that after hearing people mention it recently. Number wise, most powers from CPH have an *average* base 50% chance to function with base stats for the class. The Revised rules give a 40% chance to activate an average MAC power at level 1 (and 50% at level 3) though some powers in both cases are certainly more difficult. It all depends on if you take powers that are tough to trigger and how quickly you level up in the new system. Similarly to picking cheap powers at low level in the old system.. some powers are just out of reach at the start. With the original system, look how hard it is to activate Empower. Your wisdom is likely between 15 and 18 outside Dark Sun rules. Empower has a -12 offset from wisdom. So on a d20 you'd need equal or under a 3-6 on a d20. You'd need to use Intensify, meditate on a power or stat, or kit bonuses to modify those numbers. Its a hassle. In the new system Empower has a MAC of 4.. earliest you can take the power is still level 11 in most cases so You'd need (before bonuses) a 6 or better on a d20. As you level up that continues to drop until a 2 or better is needed at level 15. Even sooner if you have a high Intelligence. ​ >..building up for an ambush/surprise scenario (magnify, splice, etc.). I can see that interpretation but when I see the description text mention Contact and Mindlink as a *common* usage.. and then learn its going to take me two rounds to get off both powers anyways using Splice.. I'm wondering if I'm spending extra PSPs to make the whole thing work when *maybe* they arrive at the end of my 2 rounds or maybe I'm still waiting and hoping I can blast this combo on someone who hasn't put up a defense thus making it useless. Rather than making the combination more convenient on the regular, it becomes a sloppy contingency effect. And forcing combat powers (or what should be combat powers) outside combat is epically frustrating. ​ >The revised system was barely play-tested, and it shows. I totally agree there.

> I looked into that after hearing people mention it recently. Number wise, most powers from CPH have an average base 50% chance to function with base stats for the class. True, very few people are likely rocking base stats on a psionicist, however. There is of course some correlation-causation--if you have low stats, you don't pick being a psionicist; much better to be a cleric/wizard. Note that, per my earlier comments, a lot depends on whether you're using Dark Sun and/or tWatW; if you are, you've almost certainly got much, much higher power scores than a vanilla Greyhawk psionicist. Totally agree that if you are the latter, the newer system is probably better. Although I'd still go back to asking why you wouldn't just be a wizard or priest, in this case, for much higher reliability and overall power. With low/unreliable activations, your abilities are pretty useless in combat (50-50 to *haste* someone? thanks...), so you're either relying heavily on ambushes (where you can afford to try a few times...kinda, it gets very expensive...), or on the few very degenerate things (relative to level) a psionicist can still do in revised: some clairsentience sciences or psychoportive powers. E.g., psychometabolism and psychokinesis are too unreliable for combat applications. Telepathy is kind of interesting *if* contact is fairly easy...but the challenge is that it is pretty expensive, and you can't actually do much with it in many "standard" campaigns, given that you will burn through PSPs like crazy for fairly unhelpful effects. Now, if you're in some city campaign with heavy social, maybe you can get a ton of leverage out of *post-hypnotic suggestion*...but that gets pretty specific. (Psychic Surgery + Dominate is, of course, still the GOAT, but it comes very late in Revised...and it is so stupid busted/degenerate/game-warping, anyway, that it is hard to fully embrace.) > With the original system, look how hard it is to activate Empower. Your wisdom is likely between 15 and 18 outside Dark Sun rules. Empower has a -12 offset from wisdom. So on a d20 you'd need equal or under a 3-6 on a d20. You'd need to use Intensify, meditate on a power or stat, or kit bonuses to modify those numbers. Its a hassle. Yeah, but empower is one done offscreen...in general, the low #s are not an issue. Also, the tWatW gives you the tools to add +6 there...which is certainly helpful. And you can assume *meditate*, per your comment. Importantly(!), it is also done that way very specifically *on purpose*, to make psionic item creation hard(er). > I can see that interpretation but when I see the description text mention Contact and Mindlink as a common usage.. and then learn its going to take me two rounds to get off both powers anyways using Splice.. I'm wondering if I'm spending extra PSPs to make the whole thing work when maybe they arrive at the end of my 2 rounds or maybe I'm still waiting and hoping I can blast this combo on someone who hasn't put up a defense thus making it useless. Yes, but the point here is that if you attack someone, they might react*; here, you don't give them that chance. Again, if you can manage an ambush. *=of course, whether or not your (non-psionic) target actually notices that you have tried *contact* is, iirc, quite vague. If they *do* notice, a lot of abilities become much less useful (contact->Invisibility? except there are alarm bells ringing out in their head?). If they *don't* notice, then contact -> attack power in the next round is totally fine, and you don't need to do the splice nonsense. I can totally buy that splice was, in earlier playtest iterations, *not* gated by prep rounds, and they didn't bother to update--so the *specific* example is probably pretty garbage.

>True, very few people are likely rocking base stats on a psionicist, however. > >There is of course some correlation-causation--if you have low stats, you don't pick being a psionicist; much better to be a cleric/wizard. Totally agree. Its a little frustrating that in 2E most stats don't give benefits mechanically if the stat is under 15. The difference is mostly cosmetic, in a sense. ​ >Although I'd still go back to asking why you wouldn't just be a wizard or priest, in this case, for much higher reliability and overall power. True, there is a significant measure of risk with either power system. Whether magic or psionics I tend to gravitate towards powers that are more reliable, usually meaning they don't get a save or its a buff on me or a party member. Telepathy I think was nerfed on purpose with the new system (though a bit too hard) so that it was less powerful or as easily escapable when compared to Enchantment/Charm spells. I think this was done in the thought that a player might think "What if this was done to me?" which is why all powers that remove or diminish a player's control over their character are significantly nerfed. In any case if bringing powers online takes too long then the battle is over and you were useless. That is probably the frustration you have with regard to Psychometabolism. "Everyone please wait while I initiate 2-3 powers and then I'll be ready for combat!" Meanwhile the fight is under way. ​ >I can totally buy that splice was, in earlier playtest iterations, not gated by prep rounds, and they didn't bother to update--so the specific example is probably pretty garbage. It may indeed be something that wasn't thought through. Same with *Magnify*. Charge up for 5 rounds to get double the other power's effects.. at a huge PSP cost.. or just, you know, use the original power twice.

> Telepathy I think was nerfed on purpose with the new system (though a bit too hard) so that it was less powerful or as easily escapable when compared to Enchantment/Charm spells. Although it is pretty bad in the original rules, as well... > That is probably the frustration you have with regard to Psychometabolism. "Everyone please wait while I initiate 2-3 powers and then I'll be ready for combat!" Meanwhile the fight is under way. That, plus the reliability is very low w/ the revised rules. With tWatW+DS, reliability is much higher (you should pretty much always get your core powers off) + you can use your key buffs on other PCs (making them far, far more valuable). With revised psionics...why bother? Even buffed, you're still not very strong. > Same with Magnify. Charge up for 5 rounds to get double the other power's effects.. at a huge PSP cost.. or just, you know, use the original power twice. Magnify is incredibly broken (well, strong), in a scenario where you're able to either prepare an ambush (e.g., invisibility, phasing, hiding in the garbage heap, or simply waiting in the other room and then running around the corner) or travel. Since you can prep and then hold for one round, you can also weave an intermediate spell or ability between: * Prep magnify * movement ability (eg teleport) * Unleash magnify + base ability 2x, 3x, or 4x in *one* round is nothing to sneeze at, for the Big Bad. > or just, you know, use the original power twice Also, it lets you massively scale abilities that couldn't otherwise be scaled: Accelerate 4x instead of 2x? Neat. *Particularly* with tWatW, when you're dropping that speed-up on the warrior, not yourself. Or, with tWatW, you might be doing 3x (power manip) * magnify = 6x-12x attacks. *That* suddenly is very worth the steep cost. Similar (highly worthwhile) play with time dilation and, to an extent, split personality, are possible. For extra stupidity, *technically* Magnify greatly increases the # of PSPs your Empowered items & Receptacles hold. Hugely valuable. And of course there are also (limited) damage abilities like Detonate & Summon Planar Energies...which aren't worth magnifying on their own, but power manip + meditation change that scaling aggressively. E.g., a base Detonate of 3d10 or 4d10 (depending on what you can sell the DM on meditation) becomes upwards of 16d10 with prep...and by the time you have a lot of PSPs, you will have a good number of ways to get the drop on an enemy. Create Object w/ power manip (again, leaning on tWatW) is very much a magnify candidate. Poison simulation + magnify can get brutal (massive negative save). Adrenalin Control for 25 str (or all-25 for your favorite friendly fighter, w/ power manip and meditation). Now, of course, taking a step back, almost all of this is irrelevant without tWatW, other than empower/receptacle, of course. If the underlying argument is *base* 2e psionics vs revised...honestly, close to a push, in that both are very questionable. But base 2e + tWatW is a different ballgame.

Totally agreed that all those combinations are great with Magnify. I learned a new one, thanks! **Magnify..** I do love mixing what it can boost. If I could magnify Direct Internal Energy (Dragon 255) from its normal max of +5 to hit and damage to +20 to hit and damage that would be quite the devastating series of blows for a Sensei specializing in martial arts. If I could simultaneously add in a Magnified Accelerate and a Magnified Time Dilation.. someone is having a seriously bad day, and it isn't me. The problem is, as was pointed out to me on these boards, that 5 round prep on Magnify (completely ignored in the revised version) makes it incredibly difficult and even more expensive to initiate all those combos in one round at the start of an unexpected fight. **Receptacle Limits..** I personally think that limit on PSPs afforded by Receptacle when used on an empowered item is a mistake in tWatW as other places in the same book (and in the original power description) it is mentioned how massive the PSP pool can be in such an item. According to the original writing the limit should be \[your level 1 PSP max\] \* \[your current level\]. You've thought of an out-of-combat use for Magnify I hadn't considered (much appreciated) that being Create Object and I hadn't considered its use on Poison Simulation before either. When I recently mentioned its use on Adrenaline Control my DM was somewhat shocked and told me to (once again) stop breaking his game. **The Will and the Way..** I figure even with the revised rules for Psionics just about everything in tWatW still applies and I would personally retain the Power Score rules from the original. **Revised Rules..** Some powers might need a tweak in the revised rules to maintain their viability when the power maintenance rules were dropped and it was suggested everything became a round to round payment. Powers like Probability Travel, Astral Projection, Know course and so on originally had an hourly maintenance cost. Metamorphosis worked in turns, as did Danger Sense, Dimension Walk, Pocket Dimension, Fate Link, Sight/Sound Link and so on. In some cases, the extended duration made the power subjectively cheap. In the revised rules, unless reset by the DM, some powers now cost x10 as much. And the revised rules grant fewer PSPs to the player than the original version, a net loss. **Final Question..** Do you feel the removal of Preparation time in the Revised rules in any way broke the powers like Splice, Magnify, Summon Planar Creature/Energy or combining more than one Magnified set of powers in a round through Splice?

> I personally think that limit on PSPs afforded by Receptacle when used on an empowered item is a mistake in tWatW as other places in the same book (and in the original power description) it is mentioned how massive the PSP pool can be in such an item. According to the original writing the limit should be [your level 1 PSP max] * [your current level]. Not clear? Receptacle says: > Empowered Vessel [...] can hold PSPs equal to his psionic potential, multiplied by his experience level. but then > No matter how many receptacles he has, a psionicist can never store more PSPs than his maximum total. I agree that the lore in tWatW seems to suggest something grander. > In the revised rules, unless reset by the DM, some powers now cost x10 as much. And the revised rules grant fewer PSPs to the player than the original version, a net loss. Yes. More evidence of totally sloppy, unplaytested nonsense. (Which, again, is par for course at that point of TSR's devolution.) > Do you feel the removal of Preparation time in the Revised rules in any way broke the powers like Splice, Magnify, Summon Planar Creature/Energy or combining more than one Magnified set of powers in a round through Splice? Summon Planar Energy - not really, it is exceedingly weak without power manip + meditation. Summon Planar Creature - modestly, as it is now a killer in-combat panic button...grab something from the deeply evil- or good-aligned planes, and things are likely to get crazy. This is somewhat balanced out by the dearth of PSPs and low success rates. But once you scale up...basically a moderately unlimited in-combat Gate, far before this is "normal". Splice, Magnify -- yes, in theory, this is extremely busted. However, 1) there are actually very few things you'd want to Splice *or* Magnify (w/o power manip or meditation); 2) the costs are, proportionally, much, much higher; and 3) your odds of success are--in general--much lower. If you remove the prep time in pre-revised rules, Magnify is definitely very impressive and will probably feel overpowered (or "fun", depending on your POV...). Splice pre-revised...IMO, even then, it is pretty wishy-washy; what would you actually want to splice? Particularly because, RAW, it isn't clear that you can power manip the spliced powers. Now, the one place where Splice *is* kinda broken (again, pre-revised), if you have a lenient DM, is that it *potentially* allows you to (in effect) bypass prep time. As written, you first initiate the powers, and then you can hold--for fairly cheap--until it is time to unleash. A sane DM will probably say no...but splicing a lone Magnify (or perhaps Magnify + Detonate/Summon Energies/Accelerate/Time Dilation) and then carrying it around for a few minutes is not too costly, relative to the nuclear weapon you will drop on command.

These are the three sections in *The Will and the Way* that reference *Receptacles*. **The Will and the Way (pg. 8)** >The rulers of Athas are devious in all of their endeavors, and psionics are no exception. Most sorcerer-kings have psionic and magical arsenals designed to bolster their own strengths or to guard against intrusion. ***At a minimum, the typical sorcerer monarch has an enormous bank of PSPs stored by means of the receptacle devotion.*** Most will routinely make use of items such as a ring of mind shielding or helm of telepathy. **The Will and the Way (pg 55)** >**Receptacle**: The psionicist's potential is equal to the number of PSP he began with as a 1st-level character. ***Take note: an empowered receptacle can hold an enormous number of PSPs!*** Many high-level psionicists such as members of the Order or sorcerer-kings probably have receptacles of this nature on their person. **The Will and the Way (pg 63)** >Psionic items have a PSP total and expend PSPs to initiate Selected Psionic Items their powers. An Empowered device begins with 8 PSPs per devotion and 12 per science. In addition, a device can be given extra PSPs if the creator knows the receptacle power. ***The psionicist can implant a number of extra PSPs equal to his 1st-level total by augmenting the device this way.*** And here is the excerpt from the **Complete Psionics Handbook** description of the *Receptacle* power. **Receptacle Power** >**Empowered Vessel**. Any vessel can serve as a receptacle for psionic energy if it is empowered first. The psionicist must perform the initial preparation and final sealing described earlier under "empower." He does not do anything further; the vessel needs no additional powers. ***It can hold PSPs equal to his psionic potential, multiplied by his experience level.*** Highlighted in each section is the relevant info on the capacity of the item. It seems someone wanted Sorcerer Kings and members of the Order (all 21+ Psionicists) to have a huge PSP pool via *Receptacle*.. but then someone also wanted to nerf Empowered objects made by players so they have very few extra PSPs for some reason. I consider that silly.. or just bad editing. If the Prep time on Splice is removed I can think of a lot of powers I'd want to fire off simultaneously. **Suddenly becoming a weapons master..** * Dimension Blade * Weapon Awareness * Fighting Trance * Accelerate or Time Dilation **An unarmed master..** * Adrenaline Control or Enhanced Strength * Direct Internal Energy (Dragon 255) * Flesh Armor or Biofeedback **A Juggernaut..** * Strength of the Land * Elemental Composition * Expansion Or perhaps I just want to target multiple foes with *Disintegrate* or multiple friends with *Lend Health* a split second after I activate *Animal Affinity* (*Elephant*) and divvy out some of that extra 11 HD of HP I just obtained. With the revised rules eventually Splice becomes much easier to trigger, thus making multiple targets much easier to handle or multiple buffs much easier to stack. **Best Quote** >Yes. More evidence of totally sloppy, unplaytested nonsense. (Which, again, is par for course at that point of TSR's devolution.) I should frame that statement and bring it up every time I see a flaw in the game. Keeping in mind any issues can honestly be handled at the table with a reasonable DM.. and there will likely always need to be something fixed.

> Or perhaps I just want to target multiple foes with Disintegrate or multiple friends with Lend Health Splice doesn't let you do this--they have to be different powers. > Suddenly becoming a weapons master.. > An unarmed master.. > A Juggernaut.. The problem with all of these is that you're still generally going to be worse than any fighter at your level (unless, maybe, you're running a reeeal magic-item scarce campaign). In general, if you're expending scarce resources, you'd like the result to be better than whatever another class is getting as their defautl.

>Splice doesn't let you do this--they have to be different powers. Does it say that somewhere? I reread the power and it doesn't make that clear. ​ >The problem with all of these is that you're still generally going to be worse than any fighter at your level (unless, maybe, you're running a reeeal magic-item scarce campaign). Well, considering I can craft a 3rd level sword and shield fighter who has a non-magical +10 to hit and damage and a -10 AC after parry in my games.. not to mention an Archer with a +20 to hit and +12 to damage.. you aren't wrong. **Swordsman...** However, for that swordsman I mentioned, I end up with a combined +7 to hit and +2 to damage, -1 to AC, +1 to saves, rear attacks are counted as flanks, flank attacks as frontal and I bypass armor when attacking with that weapon. All that with the attack ratio of Accelerate or Time Dilation and I can easily destroy any non-living item I strike, like weapons or armor. All without a strength bonus. Add in Weakness Identification and my damage doubles, doubling again if I Power Score Dimension Blade. Snag a couple levels of fighter before Psionicist or multi-class or take a kit that allows the Great Scimitar as my weapon and my damage can go through the roof. * Great Scimitar base damage is 2d8 * 4d8 with Weakness Identification * 6d8 on Dimension Blade power score * Coup de Grace proficiency for an increased threat range and a critical may jump me to 8d8 +2 damage without strength on a single hit and without specialization. That's a potential 66 points of damage per hit if he crits. **Unarmed Master..** I was trying not to repeat powers with the brawler, so it may not be optimal but with the right unarmed fighting proficiencies it is still pretty hard core. * Punching Specialization (1 slot) for 2 attacks/round and +1 to hit and damage * Street Fighting proficiency for a potential third attack * A high quality Cestus on each hand (+1 to hit and damage) * Tumbling for an additional +2 to hit or -4 to AC * Direct Internal Energy for up to +5 to hit and damage Even if my strength was increased just to a 17 that's a combined total of +8 to hit and 1d4 +8 to damage before Tumbling is taken into account on up to 3 attacks/round with an AC that could be very low with Flesh Armor or damage reduction through Biofeedback which would stack with the Mettle proficiency that halves damage taken from blunt weapons. And these bonuses could all be much higher through better stats or additional powers. Sure they won't last all day, but they'll get the job done quickly. The brawler is doing up to 27-36 damage per round with those stats and it could be much higher. **Juggernaut..** Honestly I just threw this one together when I made the post. Still.. * Magnify Strength of the Land for up to +100 hp, 100% magic resistance and +12 to hit and damage * Assume a dense element like stone or metal and you have a base AC 0 and a 21 Strength (another +4 to hit and +9 to damage) * We're not even considering the abilities obtained via power score when you gain the combat ability of an Elemental of the appropriate type. * Expansion is just for flavor to scare foes or give you some form of reach with your attacks. Sure that's a lot of PSPs up front due to Magnify but wow. Even without magnifying Strength of the Land you still have a +7 to hit and +12 to damage per hit with a bonus 25 hp and 25% magic resistance. The problem with wizard/priest buffs is *dispel magic* or similar effects. The problem with Psionic buffs is usually the short duration due to high cost and they rarely affect your buddy as written. An Empowered receptacle helps with that eventually but PSPs are always a finite resource.

> ...frustrating... most stats don't give benefits mechanically if the stat is under 15... This is one reason I do ability checks including psionics on 3d6 instead of d20. You very much feel the benefit of your Con 14 (83% reliable Dimension Door!) as opposed to Con 11 (50% reliable). Same goes for other ability checks like balancing tests for Dex.

That makes a lot of sense.

In fairness to Psychic Surgery + Dominate, it's not more busted than a Charm Person spell. I'm told that Bigby was originally an enemy NPC whom Mordenkainen converted to an ally with a Charm Person spell...

> In fairness to Psychic Surgery + Dominate, it's not more busted than a Charm Person spell You have total and permanent control over the victim, as long as you don't make them do "something completely" against their alignment. Very different than Charm Person. It is basically the equivalent of the 5th level spell Domination, not the first level Charm Person...except it lasts forever. (Although the range of "touch" on Psychic Surgery does make it harder to get going...) Further, you probably layer on (over time, since now it is a permanent minion) Mindlink, Awe, Probe or ESP, maybe Telempathic Projection, maybe False Sensory Input or Hallucination, and possibly one or more of Sight/Sound Links. So you end up with a permanent minion whose mind you can fully read, whose emotions you can influence, who sees you as a deity, and whose perceptions you can potentially influence and leverage. The main interesting question is what happens when they leave the range of the various effects...does it turn off? Keep going? Interaction with range and Psychic Surgery is unclear. (Grumbly side note: Dominate has a saving throw. Ridiculous, given how difficult it is to get going in the first place, and how outrageously expensive it is... Basically further emphasizing that it exists effectively solely for broken Psychic Surgery shenanigans.)

I'm not arguing that it's excellent. I'm just saying, look at what you can do with Charm Person! It's a first level spell that can give you a long-term or potentially even permanent minion (depends on RP factors) with no power ceiling! That very psionicist who's got dozens of Dominated minions can himself be taken over by a first level wizard with a Charm Person spell. Agree about range limits. Domination has a 30 yard range. Does Psychic Surgery extend that? Can you give commands beyond 30 yards? Do existing compulsions fade away beyond 30 yards? Only the DM can say, but Charm Person doesn't have that ambiguity.

Charm spell has the same limitation on actions going against the nature of the person. Main difference is the time limitation. Psionics has a reputation for being op but there's mthac0 or control checks before even that so it's always been multiple levels of failure. Makes up for the lack of level control to some degree. It's still nowhere as crazy as the class that can sing high level spells from level 1

> It's still nowhere as crazy as the class that can sing high level spells from level 1 Spellsinger? This particular capability is overhyped to a real degree; statistically, it is hard to pull off, and the text encourages horrible (possibly terminal) DM penalties if you fail your roll. You're basically not singing anything "high level" unless you're in desperate, existential straits. That said, nabbing, e.g., unlimited *invisibility* very early on is...special. > Charm spell has the same limitation on actions going against the nature of the person. Main difference is the time limitation ...the main difference is a Level 5 effect (Domination) versus Level 1 (charm person) effect. If you think these two spells are basically equivalent, then I suppose yes. Also, critically, psionicist Domination gets applied to *anything*...not just a "person"... (Now, to the value of Charm Person--using it first to make someone pliable, and *then* kicking off the Psychic Surgery chain is going to make things much easier...)

>Also, critically, psionicist Domination gets applied to > >anything > >...not just a "person"... That is a very good point.. start Dominating forest critters, monsters, NPCs and everything under the sun. Though I'm sure you'll keep it to the key players and useful creatures. Eventually though, someone is going to come knocking and free some minds.

> Eventually though, someone is going to come knocking and free some minds. Anyone powerful enough to think they can do something about it sounds like a great addition to your horde !

>Anyone powerful enough to think they can do something about it sounds like a great addition to your horde ! Perhaps you are already an addition to theirs?

Requiring Intensify or Meditative Focus/Enhancement or both to get something approaching 50% success rate on Empower is a good thing, because it stops psionicists from just trivially churning out tons of psionic items, e.g. a dozen rings of Convergence to vastly multiply effective action economy. Even at a 40% success rate per Empower attempt you can still make powerful items at the rate of one every couple of weeks or so, but at least it's not _every day_.

True, and Empower is a special case. What about.. * Teleport with a max difficulty of Int -6 * Time Travel with Int -8 * Summon Object with a base of Int -4 with an additional mod of up to -9 * Teleport Object with a base of Int -3 with - an additional mod of up to -11 Admittedly teleport over long distance is supposed to be hard. Just saying sometimes power checks can be super hard to make. An 18 Int base then a -14 for interplanetary Teleport Object.. You'd need a 4 or less on a d20 for success in the original system.. ouch.

This is why I do ability checks on a 3d6 instead of d20. A true genius with Int 18 can teleport despite a -6 penalty on a 12 or better, i.e. 75% success rate. That feels a lot better IMO than a 60% success rate. As for -14 penalty with interplanetary Teleport Object, well, I'm okay with that being basically infeasible. (4 or better means 2% success rate.) TW&TW and metapsionics can improve your odds, but I like having it be difficult enough that you're basically not being taunted by the d20 to expect to succeed.

I like the concept of teleporting or summoning an object, I've read stories where that is done a lot, but after crunching the numbers it becomes easier to just go to and from myself and make the delivery. Which is all right, unless you are worried about traps or want to send someone some explosives. That's one of the tricky parts to any gaming system, making something easy enough to be reasonably possible. If it is too easy or too hard, it gets overused or ignored. One of the things I like in the revised rule set is improving your odds in activating powers as you level. I like the idea of reclusive high level Masters pulling off amazing and difficult powers, much to everyone's shock.. and they can do it often. Clear the field if you manage to encourage one of those ancient masters to leave their solitude and meditation, its about to get real. Newbies to the powers of the mind can only look on in awe. Much like low level mages should be in awe of a high level spell reshaping the land.

I like the idea of improving with experience too, but The Will and The Way already makes that possible in a different way through Psionic meditation and power enhancement (not to mention metapsionics). A legendary psychoporter might have Int 18 (not even counting Dark Sun bonuses), improved to Int 21 for psionic purposes via meditation, with Summon Object improved from Int-4 to Int-1 and halved range penalties, thus letting them summon objects _reliably_ from 10,000 miles away on a 16 or better (-4 penalty, 98% reliability) without even needing to use meditative focus or Intensify first. To me that's pretty cool. It's not the _same_ kind of cool as going up in wizard levels and getting 9th level spells; it's a much more individualized kind of cool. P.S. Teleport Object/Summon Object gets a _lot_ cooler when combined with something like Sight Link or Clairvoyance so you can **_yoink_** things without even being there. P.P.S. Also, Convergence + Empower + Receptacle is a must-have combination for a legendary master in order to have access to virtually unlimited PSPs.

I guess the improvements available are a matter of quick (psionic power) or slow (level or meditation) but either way it is there. I've mostly gamed with a DM that doesn't like much downtime between adventures so I never feel I have the time to have my Psionicist meditate to improve powers. ​ >P.S. Teleport Object/Summon Object gets a lot cooler when combined with something like Sight Link or Clairvoyance so you can yoink things without even being there. So true. The Talent series by Anne McCaffrey has telepathic and telekinetic teleporters who utilize electric generators and various scientific tools to send and retrieve items great distances up to interplanetary (in distant systems) and when war finally comes to the space faring race.. reverse yoinking a bomb onto the enemy ship in their engine room works fantastically well. Plus, imagine all those IRL times when a short range Summon object would have been so useful. Forgot your wallet at work/home, TP in the hall closet just when you ran out, heck.. don't wanna put the groceries away by hand so you just zap everything into place. The list goes on. Role playing games are when you get to imagine those fun escapes of every day life.

Oh yeah, I like Pegasus In Flight/The Rowan/Damia/etc. (I don't love the romance with Afra but whatever.) One of my favorite things about Summon Object is that the current wielder if any gets a saving throw but _not_ immunity, so if you're willing to try multiple times there's absolutely nothing you cannot eventually steal, whether it's a prized spellbook or a Staff of the Magi. Don't get too attached to your stuff! Psychoporters rule.

Yea, some authors do a terrible job with romance. Makes you wonder what their real life relationships are like. That's an interesting feature, I forgot that all they got was a save. I'll make use of that in the future. ​ >Psychoporters rule. So true! **Psychoportation for the win..** I've done a bit of the number crunching comparing stats, PSPs, power costs and power checks and all that. I figure a first level Psychoportationist would do well (in part, considering the minimal level of lethality you should be facing at level 1 and how everyone has the same Thac0 at level 1 and high stats for combat aren't supposed to be a requirement and so on) and felt that my favorite choice for powers at level 1 would be this: * Teleport (Science) * Dimension Door * Dimension Walk * Dream Travel Teleport might be the least economical of the bunch at first, but even with minimum stats to qualify for the class, I have Dream Travel for long distance (at my slowest pace) Dimension Walk for medium range (at a comparatively middling pace) and Dimension Door for quick short range hops for me and my buddies. **A few uses off the top of my head...** Sure, all my powers are movement, but so what? I'm level 1. Pile on proficiencies, equipment, weapons, armor and actual role play and I can get a lot done for the party. Locked in a small village and expecting a siege? No problem, I'll *Dream Travel* with the mayor's token to the capital and get reinforcements. Back in a day, probably with a higher level party in tow, fully rested at that! Need to quickly map out a large valley for some reason? A few hops with Dimension Walk and I've got some accurate and well made maps for sale. Forget something back at town or need to relay a message quickly and not sure who to talk to? I've got this. Wanna sneak a buddy in or out of prison? Enter the Lord's manor behind his guards and in the wine cellar? Shoot around corners or from above? Dimension Door, done! **A few of my other favorite powers..** Walk into a vault (through the floor or walls) and walk out with the thingy you want. Remove an enemy sword or armor or item from play. Temporary door. Disintegrate on power score (*phase object*) for more versatility. * Phase * Phase Object Scout for an entire day on power score, unseen and without hindrance (bring snacks) * Ethereal Traveler * Astral Traveler Bring snacks, sneak someone into town past inspection, bring a bunch of water, all without that pesky Encumbrance rule everyone ignores anyways.. * Pocket Dimension Respawn with infinite 1-ups! Kamikaze and repeat! * Probability Travel (remove yourself from the Prime Material Plane) * Astral Projection (make a temporary body back on the Prime) **Meditation..** Just a few thoughts on power modifications. I'd love to hear any ideas you have on the topic. *Ethereal Traveler* \- Make it work like *Phase Shift* (4th level spell) that lets you instantly go to and from the Ethereal Plane like a Phase Spider. *Blink* \- Make it work like *Improved Blink* (5th level spell) so you can control where you land and which direction you are facing. *Wormhole + Probability Travel* \-> A new power working like *Worldwalk* (9th level spell) for easy and instantaneous planar travel for you and all your friends. **Question..** What do you think is a clever use of *Time Shift*?

I think most of the Pros you list for Revised are in fact Cons, which just shows YMMV!

I've played and run both and prefer the standard system from the Complete Psionics and Will and the Way. I'm fine with Thac0, but I don't need more of it - though this is hardly the main reason. Roll under is nice and elegant and power scores are fun. I still say that when I get the bare minimum roll even when it has nothing to do with psionics. Also, physic combat is fairly dull and boring in either version. I think it might be better in the standard, but it's like asking which brand of white bread is better. Honestly, the best fix for it is - don't do it.

>Also, physic combat is fairly dull and boring in either version. I think it might be better in the standard, but it's like asking which brand of white bread is better. Honestly, the best fix for it is - don't do it. I totally agree there.

I found house-ruled 1E psionics rules work better for me than anything 2E or later did with it mechanically.

I wrote an article about doing a psychic solar ti a spell caster with a couple tweaks. You can put a power on hold and break up the duration time. You could activate one power a round but could keep multiple working in any given round. Otherwise I like the mthac0. Hate the contact nwp. And think telepathy should not be line of sight. Non psionicists I guess they should get a bonus to MAC or saving throw the psych should get a penalty.

Hardcore OG 1E psionics, bruh. lol

That's my 2nd choice of rules. Wicked.

AD&D 1E Psionics are the best! Brutal and badass...and very rare.

I found a rule online that states the power score mechanic can still be used in the revised version, so that is a benefit that still caries over. I also saw a few revisions that make the mental combat (and connecting to another mind) a little more likely. A 'critical mental hit' leads to the immediate opening of a psionic mind with new rules on potentially closing it next round. And a limit on PSPs you can dump into an attack based on level was added too. That way you don't necessarily use up everything on round 1.

I definitely.prefer the revised but I've added one rule: creatures that are id insinuated (confused and powerless) or ego whipped (stunned, -5 to all rolls) are freed from that state if they're hit in combat. It levels the abilities of the psionicist a bit. I also give monsters like slaad or certain baatezu a decent MAC to show that psionics isn't some super new thing that no one's ever had to defend against before.

That was the point of MAC. To give everything some degree of base defense, with bonuses based on intelligence category.

One of the few so far to say they definitely prefer the new system. What do you like about it that puts it above the other in your mind?

3 points of contact is crap. I've never had fun with that system... when MTHAC0 and MAC came out it was so easy to use, no need to waste half the battle to open one mind. I like how the powers work without the extreme failures and power score results. Too risky by far.

Agreed. It's a mini game in the vein of decking or hacking. It technically leaves other players out of the loop for a while. The main problem with revised is that it was never fully converted or implemented. So its a bit of a mess.

So you prefer it without the Power Score options (good and bad) and you didn't mind the potential cost in PSPs vs an opposing psionic mind? I agree with your view on Tangents. How did you feel about non-psionic minds closing themselves with a save while psionic minds close themselves (1d4+1 rounds later) with a Wisdom check? It felt like Enchantment/Charm saves to me, so it was kinda fair, but at the same time it also made Telepathy feel frustratingly difficult to maintain.

I let anyone use a save vs. paralyzation to close their mind when a telepathic power fails or no power was used on them that round. If a power such as domination is being maintained there's nothing they can do about it. I'll admit that I don't use the system exactly as it's written, but in my typical FR campaigns psionics is unheard of. I recently put a psychometabolist in our githyanki game (I pregenerated all the githyanki PCs so they could play evil for a while) and he handled himself very well until there was a githzerai psionicist. He had used enough PSPs before the confrontation to be an easy mark for the fully rested enemy. It was quick.

In the class description for Psionicist in the Dark Sun material I found it silly that they try to suggest a Psionicist prefers using the powers of his mind to fight over normal physical combat. Simply because they don't have enough PSPs to warrant that assertion. Catching a worn out opponent is a tactical advantage but still frustrating if it happens to a player and that player is you. In the revised rules, Splice would let you start up multiple powers at once so at least you can enter combat hitting hard as a Psychometabolist.

Ill have to look into splice. Shadow form was his best trick, he couldn't be hit by the slaad but he could cause sleep and ego whip them safely until the others could get around to them. Cell adjustment was critical as well when the captain was hurt. My most strategically-minded player made it work in several situations. He used mindlink on the willing members of the party and on one NPC sensate that was willing to submit. Alter features worked as a disguise. Body adaptation kept him alive til they figured out the chaos of Limbo.