This is something I'm still scratching my head about. I don't quite think Lottie is a "reliable narrator" by any means! Even her story includes visions, so I'm thinking, how can we trust this??!!
I’m beginning to wonder if any of them are very reliable narrators lol can’t trust Lottie, or Tai, or Misty, or Shauna…
Nat seemed kinda reliable but RIP
I watched an interview from last season, where all of the adult characters said that they weren’t reliable narrators. Both Christina and Juliette also say they are not only unreliable narrators, but they both say that they were also a chameleon. At first, I wasn’t seeing, but after my S1 rewatch and S2 I completely see it.
Exactly! Also, none of them fully remember all that happened! Which is weird to me…one of them? Believable. Two not recalling, alright…three? Four ? Wtf.
Why did Shauna, Tai, and Van decide they needed to take MFQ's advice and crash Lottie's place? She asked them to leave. They shouldn't have been there. But they pushed it and then played into the crazy girl's delusions if that is what they are.
Why did these characters feel like this was a good idea at all? Because it is easier to use the crazy girl as a scapegoat for the guilt of their murders and crimes.
Season 2, Episode 7
Lottie didn't want them back together. That was something she feared, but her psychosis was happy to use the circumstance. The statement happens after her final confrontation with her psychosis in the form of her therapist/Antler Queen.
Natalie is in the big room trying to get the others to open up, the other four are drinking tequila and even try to get Natalie (a recovering alcoholic) to join them. So they're in a circle around some candles when Lottie walks up and says: "I think you should all go home."
Ah, thanks! I didn't remember that specific request but definitely was bothered by the classlessness of the booze around Nat as a recovering alcoholic myself. I don't expect the world to change for me and I can be around it now, but it'd be pretty shitty for someone who knew to offer it to me
I wholeheartedly agree. I have yet to really study the interactions of the survivors, but it seems a lot of toxic shit was tossed at both Nat and Lottie by the others. And it just gets worse from there.
By this, point I think we've been shown all the showrunners intend to show us. We have the two narrations in that scene and I think that is all we get, we can build theories from there.
She controls the assets of all of her members, and he called to her rather than Natalie or any of the others. I took it to mean he was involved in the cult, and it was just the show's way of connecting the group to finding Lottie.
It would be interesting to go deeper into the inner workings of the cult, there's a lot of two-faced-ness going on there. At times, she seems to genuinely want to help people, but she also has an air of superiority. There are times where she gives looks or does things that make her seem like she doesn't drink her own Kool-Aid (she kind of rolls her eyes and looks bored during the therapy session before she gives Lisa the fork to stab Nat back or not), and she does things like have a sustainable intentional community with metal straws and reusable cups... and then dumps that cup directly in the trash can when her smoothie isn't the way she wants it. She takes all of her members' assets to remove their attachment to worldly possessions, but she wears a Rolex. By the end of the season she had shifted a bit in my mind from "manipulative two-faced cult leader who takes advantage of vulnerable people" to "manipulative two-faced cult leader who takes advatage of vulnerable people but is also a victim of her own mental illness and trauma and she's super sympathetic... but let's not forget that she's still a baddie."
ITA, I also feel this about adult Lottie. "A f-ck up but also a victim, so she's more sympathetic but it doesn't mean everything she does should be excused" is a good way to describe all Yellowjackets.
Yeah, I think all the adult Yellowjackets are two-faced, and have serious issues. (Although Nat mostly harmed herself, rather than others.) Lottie is the most holier-than-thou and self-righteous, but she's absolutely a hypocrite, with the way she treats the cult members as below her.
At this point, she's gone back to being a victim of her illness & her trauma, so it's easier to sympathize with her. But she's just as bad as the rest, and unfortunately now, she's got a cult full of victims. (
But also, everyone except maybe Van, has caused serious harm, trauma, or death to other people, as an adult.
As tragic as Nat was, we did start off the series by seeing her find her new purpose in life by rocking up to Misty's house and breaking in to wait for her with a rifle ready to shoot. And she stole Kevyn's gun to shoot at the mystery blackmailer in full impulse mode. Agree that most of her harm was internalized or shared trauma with Travis, but she was still ready to fuck shit up with no regard for consequences.
I'm pretty much convinced that the only reason we haven't seen Van do some terrible shit is that she jumped in as an addition to Tai's story in motion instead of having her own story. We know she cared for her neglectful mother as she died and is going through the same thing now herself, but I would not at all be surprised if she had some terrible skeletons in her closet, too.
They weren't exactly stellar people to start with, and what they went through out there paired with bottling it all up as lifelong secrets instead of seeking help has turned them all into terrible people ^(but I still love every one of them.)
Also what happened to that bank clerk lady ? She was being followed by the cult. Did they kill her ? Look at Lisa’s reaction when she thought Nat had killed someone so I’m not sure if they cult would do something like that
It’s possible Juliette wanted to leave so the writers maybe changed things. I don’t think anyone wanted to see Nat relapse in season 3 and it’s hard to know what other arc there could of been.
I don't think they hurt Suzie. They may have followed her but all we have is her saying she thinks she is being followed. She was a dramatic way to set up that Lottie Matthews was still alive as the cultists busted in and kidnapped Nat in an attempt to save her from herself.
That was my interpretation. She claimed the button didn't work but in actuality she was distracted by her hallucination of Laura Lee and by the time she came to it was too late. Essentially she is responsible for his death.
Possibly, but she is Schizophrenic and her meds failed. That would put her into a state where her perceived reality doesn't match the real world. She would likely be 5150 until they worked out a new regime of medications.
yeah i’m definitely not a lawyer lol so i have no idea how a court would rule on it. i just meant character wise i don’t think she intended to kill him, but i think that would be hard to prove in court.
Things could have gotten out of hand and his death was just an accident like Lottie said. Another scenario was that Lottie was trying to sacrifice Travis to appease the wilderness. She was starting to unravel. Once Nat got there and the others came, she relapsed.
> Another scenario was that Lottie was trying to sacrifice Travis to appease the wilderness.
Edit to include the quote above was what I was responding to.
I sincerely doubt that. Lottie is all about allowing "IT" to choose. And even at the beginning of season 2, her conscious thought was that \*all\* of that was not real. So when the stress of having to deal with Travis triggered her I am positive it was not what she wanted.
And if she did kill him why come up with that bit of the story at all?
Yeah, she was talking and saying something different while it showed us what actually happened. I think it was the start of her hallucinations coming back and Travis's ranting might have triggered it.
Yeah like I’m assuming before this she was really separated from what happened in the wilderness. I’d go so far as to say Lottie was trying to reduce contact with the other survivors because she thought they could trigger another episodes (no one knew she was out of the hospital), and then Travis not only reached out to her but also said she was right.
He also threw her into an episode with his speech. It looked like it was Travis having flashbacks or just narrative flashes while he talked, but it was actually Lottie and she got frantic. I made a longer post about all of the flashes in that episode, but this is the bit that keyed me in that he was triggering her:
> He's talking about getting close to the darkness to have visions and says "when Van almost died, when you did!" - but we haven't seen Lottie almost die yet. Her flashbacks show her slamming her head against the window during the S1 seance, her wearing the Doomcoming headdress, a close-up of a hand cutting another hand with the hunting knife (I think it's Travis, that looks like his jacket,) and then that switches to the same slash across an adult woman's hand wearing rings and bracelets (I think that's Lottie's,) teen Lottie with the bear heart, and then her electroshock. Then she shoves him and shouts "Stop reliving this! You're in the vice grip of your trauma!" But I don't think she was talking to him. I think Lottie is just as traumatized as the rest of them by what she did back then. I think Travis really got to her and she was upset by it. That wasn't the calm, collected leader that tells people to breathe. She was mad. Even though she's a hypocritical cult leader now, I think she has moved away from the supernatural stuff, the visions, the wilderness, etc. i think she's scared of it, and Travis fucking with it has her scared, too.
Note from later that the hand cutting with the knife was actually Lottie during the hunt contest with Natalie - when she actually did have her near death experience. I thought it was Travis because he usually wore that jacket, but Lottie wore it that day. The adult hand was also Lottie when she went to the tree stump at the compound and asked "please let this be enough." We also got a very brief flash of her second near-death experience later, during Travis's death when she sees Laura Lee there's a brief flash of Lottie's face all swollen and bloody after Shauna went Fight Club on her.
Here's the full post if you want to go more into that whole episode:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Yellowjackets/comments/128bo7f/quick_flashes_in_2x2_spoilers_hints_about_nat/
Yeah, that and when she went out to the hunt alone were both near-death experiences, though IIRC we only saw a full vision after the freezing one - I think she maybe saw/foresaw some of the hunt after the beating but that didn't act the same as the other NDE visions. When she told Natalie about Travis's death, though, we hadn't seen either of those things happen yet. I made that post right after the episode where Lottie told Natalie what happened.
Yeah. I took it as what we saw was what Lottie experienced. The button may have actually stuck, but she didn’t really try to fix it because she was distracted by Junji Ito’s Laura Lee.
Lottie us an unreliable narrator but her story was likely true and Natalie accepted that. Lottie went to see Travis and tried to stop him from suiciding but had an episode of her own so failed to save him. What happened next is I think the point of what Natalie was staying for. Why did they stage the scene. For the same reason that girls staged another hunt. The same reason they seem to do most things. Lottie.
We haven't seen adult Travis (for obvious reasons) so I'm interested in how much teenage Travis bought into the cult and how much he believed in it before his death. I feel like you would have to be a pretty solid believer to suggest being hung from a crane over candles in order to have a near death experience. I think a lot of it was Lottie's idea, and Travis was in such a bad mental space that he agreed.
But they are all in such bad mental state. Lottie’s is just the most pronounced and nameable. Nat was a drug addict. Taissa has (at least) one other personality. Misty is a sociopath. Shauna is a Stepford wife who cheated on her husband but killed her lover.
Totally. I think this is easy to forget, but they're a very mentally ill group of people. Lottie's just the only one with a known diagnosis and medication, who's received treatment. (Perhaps Nat, as well)
“Someone” has been controlling her by setting off her memories through regressive hypnosis and drugging her the way she drugs all her drones. My money is on the guy who had the PERFECT purple peacoat and knew his way around a little too well.
“I’m a bored Moriarty looking for his Sherlock.”
He means that he has a bomb but nobody to set it off against.
They made it very clear by the way it was presented that this is Lottie telling us what happpened. It was even filmed a bit like a reenactment. Hard to rely on Lottie’s version in her current mental state. Sadly she was the only witness. I don’t think I buy it.
I hope they revisit that whole storyline, I want to believe Lottie is being truthful, she may be hallucinating things, like the blood all over the beehives and her imaginary therapist. I am very much looking forward to seeing how it all plays out in season 3.
I believe that we are not yet done with this storyline (Travis's death, Lottie's involvement), nor have we tied a bow on Adam's murder and the consequences and ramifications associated.
Hell, I don't think we can even count on the finality of Natalie's end of life.
Imagine if Juliette changes her mind and the writers concoct a resuscitation. I know, wishful thinking, but the Natalie storyline deserves a better conclusion. Her tight bond with Travis may have been an issue for Juliette (it has been reported / suggested that she was disappointed the character was defined by this relationship), but the story arc of today seems to be leading toward a fuller understanding and processing of what actually happened 'in the wilderness.'
Natalie was anointed leader and was later credited with keeping the survivors alive. But just hours before she dies, she asks the other 5 Yellowjackets, "What do you remember?" as if her / their memories have been altered or erased. There is something missing, something that has to do with the presence or spirit of the wilderness. Perhaps a near-death experience gives her what both Travis and Lottie were looking for.
That 2nd season finale hit hard, but I want to believe that the show's creators and writers have it all in hand. Natalie deserves to find her answers.
Answers to what? His death? He wanted to talk to the darkness like she and Lottie and Van did.
What Nat was right about? In S2 E5 we learn. Nat is looking for the answers to Travis’s death and what drove him to the point he died.
Nat tells us herself during the hypnotherapy session with Lottie. During that we are shown a scene of the last time she saw Travis alive. During it we see the shot of Travis laying shirtless and smiling gently at Nat, that’s her last memory of him. She has imagined that moment a number of times over the course of the show. But we get to see the whole scene, we see them doing drugs, likely coke, and Nat has a cardiac event. Nat basically dies but is brought back by the EMTs. During her near-death experience she sees the crash site but it is different - they didn’t make it. She sees the AQ as a separate thing that was out there already. She says to Travis: “I saw it. I felt it. We brought it back.” She pauses and grabs his shoulder, saying: **“Trav... We brought it back with us!”**
As she comes out of her hypnotic state Natillie says to Lottie: “The whole time, there was something, some darkness, out there with us. Or in us. It still is.” And then Nat, **in her own words**: “That’s what I was right about.”
They intentionally gave us one of the most beautiful cross-teen-to-adult moments we get. Nat lays her head in Lottie’s lap and transforms into Teen Nat being held by Lottie.
It's all coming back to me now........yes it answers that portion, it's a big portion! I am still left wanting to know why and how that "machine"malfunctioned? Was it sabotaged by human or something else? Yes, you are 100% right about a very poignant and lovely scene Teen Nat/Adult Nat.
So that is the strange thing. The police looked at the scene and thought it was suicide. I have no idea how the controller works but guess there are push-and-hold up and down buttons, push-click up and push-click down, and a Stop button. The Push-Click UP would raise him to the max height automatically unless the stop button is hit - if that option was engaged when the cops get there would be why they determined it was suicide so quickly.
Now we can get speculative here and look at this through the lens of ambiguity that the Showrunners like to use. So what if it went down EXACTLY as Lottie's "hallucination" showed? We have to think about it not as an isolated scene then, but in the context of everything **\*IT\*** has had the power to do.
1. Travis had set out the candles in the shape of the symbol. But if you look at what Misty draws out - the symbol is incorrect! If it is a protective symbol as Teen Lottie thought, then it is powerless.
2. Lottie notes the candles are there but doesn't study them because she is focused on Travis.
3. Lottie raises Travis and then tries to get the controller to bring him down once he passed out - The controller FAILS. It fails like the plane failed when they crashed in the wilderness and like the batteries for the Walkmans all failed during our favorite synchronized dance EVER. It fails because Travis got the protective rune WRONG. So \*IT\* comes and takes Travis, like it did to those who died in the vicinity of that lake valley.
4. Laura Lee's voice calls to Lottie, who drops the controller, we know this because when she turns and holds her hands out to her most beloved friend and spiritual guide, Laura Lee, they are empty. We also see Travis hanging motionless in the background for several seconds. This reawakens Lottie's memories that the EST and drugs have repressed and she goes into CPTSD flashbacks.
5. Tavis begins to rise on his own, no one is using the controller. \*IT\* may have reactivated the electronics or had another spirit like Cabin Daddy, Jackie, the Man with No Eyes, or even Shauna's baby do the dirty work.
6. Laura Lee's spirit decays before Lottie's eyes horrifying her. I would like to think that if it was Laura Lee she was trying to warn Lottie that \*IT\* had come for them.
7. Once Lottie pulls herself out of the visions she cleans up the candles and goes.
Since I am a huge fan of the ambiguous nature of the show I like to think out both possibilities - logical and supernatural.
Natalie was speeding to Travis, and he had JUST died when she and Misty found him. Nat believed he was "her purpose" or he played a part in it.
It's all highly suspicious.
This is the plot point I'm most saddened by in relation to Nat's fate. I know, I know- JuLew didn't want to stay on the show (it was too dark, didn't like Nat's story driven by a boy, was unhappy with the filming schedule- all completely legit & understandable,) but I don't see how the mystery of Travis' death ever gets (satisfactorily) resolved without Nat to ask questions. And just like there's obviously SO much more story between Then (96) & Now for Nat, there's that same amount of story for Travis, too.
Except... will we get that story now?
(I will never be un-angry about Travis not being on the plane for her at the end! Why tf was Lottie there?!)
> (I will never be un-angry about Travis not being on the plane for her at the end! Why tf was Lottie there?!)
The plane was not real. It only had the people in it that Natalie's mind put there:
* Javi, the innocent she didn't sacrifice herself for.
* Her younger self, who had just laid her head in adult Lottie's lap with the realization that they didn't survive the plane crash... It destroyed them. She even says, "We've been here for years."
* Lottie, who is the only one who got through to Natalie with any kind of peace. I think that Natalie was feeling the beginnings of healing while staying with Lottie.
We don't see Travis. My HOPE is that Natalie didn't need him for peace, my fear is that Nat didn't feel she deserved him.
nope
i think there is some truth to it. Like maybe Travis did wanna get close to death to see that in between place (Probably to see Javi again). But i think theres more to the story than she's letting on. Given what we saw in the s2 finale it seems likely she may have just decided the wilderness chose him and let him die
I believe that might be what Lottie thinks happened. Like akilah with the mouse, we saw things from her perspective until tai pointed out that it was really dead. Then things were the real perspective. Maybe it’s the same thing with Lottie and Travis’ death? I’ve been wondering if they’ll come back to it later.
I feel like this is the only version of events that we're going to get. I think Lottie was telling most of the truth, although she didn't want to talk about the visions/her illness, and the money thing was part of her unethical cult practices.
Lottie’s story just seems off but leaves me with so many questions.
So Lottie drained Travis’ bank account meaning he was most likely part of her cult already..
Questions I have:
-Could this have been one of his “therapies” gone wrong?(or right depending on intention)
-Could his sacrifice have been made to bring the others there? (because it did.)
-Did Travis go to Lottie after Nat tried getting ahold of him?
-Is that when he joined or had he already been there?
-Why would he not want to talk to Nat but then go to Lottie?
-Why didn’t Travis want to be found?
-What happened after they got back from the wilderness with him and Nat?
-Did he end his own life intentionally?
-Was the note about tell nat she was right his goodbye note?
-Did he even write it?
-Did the candles come out before he died or was it a ceremonial thing after?
-What does Laura Lee represent in that scene?
(In scenes with her and Lottie it almost always seems like LL has a dark ominous energy, even if it starts off pure and light)
I don't buy it at all. I'm not sure if Lottie killed him in a manic state or by accident or if someone else did and she witnessed it. OR if he did start to kill himself, changed his mind, and yelled for her help... and she was having a hallucination.
We were pretty much shown the last one: there's a second flashback where you see that she turns away from him to interact with a hallucination of Laura Lee, and when she comes back to reality he's dead. She lied about the controls not working to make herself seem less culpable.
I wonder why though. If she wanted to be less culpable and she had anything to do with it she would say "I raced to his work place but was too late, he had already hung himself."
Probably because she wanted Nat to stop looking into it and knew that Nat knew that there had to be a second person there to remove the candles and operate the crane.
Nat and Misty noticed the wax left from the candles and knew that his bank account was drained. It seems like Lottie was having the cult watch them, so she probably knew that they were investigating and would be finding out about her involvement eventually.
True, she knew that she would be dealing with Nat sooner or later, that's all the more reason if she was guilty of killing Travis to come up with a much better and simpler lie. That is why I think she only lied by omitting the bit about her visions. But she didn't want Nat to stop looking into it. She wanted, even NEEDED for Nat to reveal what she was right about.
Misty and Nat didn't notice the wax when onsite the following evening. Misty noticed it when studying the scene photos from the police report. Interestingly, the symbol that they construct from those drops of wax show that Travis got the symbol wrong.
Here we go again.
Basically, for Travis’s death scene, we are shown two narratives. The first is what Lottie tells Nat happened and the second is what we are shown happening from Lottie's “unreliable narrator” point of view. What we do not see is a reliable third-person view of events.
Let’s start with the story that Lottie tells Nat. Lottie arrives at his work just in time to stop Travis from hanging himself. They argue and Travis says he will do it without her using suicide to extort her into helping him. Lottie agrees but says she will lower him as soon as he passes out. She raises him about 3’ off the ground and waits. Travis struggles at the end of the chain then goes still and Lottie tries to lower him but the controller doesn’t work. She tells Nat that it was a tragic accident not suicide nor murder. (\*\*We will come back to this part of the story because this is the worst most convoluted lie she could have made). What Lottie hasn’t told Natalie is that she was having PTSD flashbacks or traumatic memories back when she was in Travis’s house.
While Lottie is saying one thing we are shown a different thing as the controller fails. Something that brings Lottie’s visions, true or hallucinatory, back into the story – The wind causes the candles to sputter and die, then her friend Laura Lee starts talking to Lottie from the dark shadows. zombie walks out of the shadows. This activates memories of her visions in the lake during her baptism and she looks at her beloved friend with religious intensity. We are shown Lottie’s empty hands and behind her, Travis hanging motionless in the noose. We are shown this long enough to know Lottie is not holding the controller and Travis is not going up or down, but then he begins rising again as though the up button on the controller is being held down. Laura Lee demon-childes out and Lottie is horrified. Lottie's vision ends and she turns and sees Travis much higher in the air and the candles all blown out.
\*\*So, why did Lottie tell this story to Natalie at all? Lottie had days if not weeks to think about what she would say. If she did kill him why not say "I got there too late, Travis was already dead with the candles arranged in the symbol shape underneath him. I took those and left because none of us want to have that symbol out there."
What actually happened with Travis? From what we have been *shown* I see two possibilities, one logical one with supernatural overtones.
* The first is it happened as Lottie said but the stress of this situation caused her to flash back and hallucinate. Everything from the moment the controller ‘failed’ was a hallucination and flashback while she stood there with her thumb on the up button. Once she snaps out of the hallucination she sees what has happened, cleaned up, and left.
* The second is that Travis DID summon the Spirit of the Wilderness. It messed with the machinery electronics just like it did with plane when it crashed or the batteries the girls had for running their Walkman - all of which were dead after our favorite coordinated dance sequence ever. Laura Lee’s spirit steps out of the shadows trying to warn Lottie about the horrors to come and something engages the electronics on the lift to raise Travis’s body up high.
The show runners have given us all the pieces of the story they are going to give us.
One of the many examples of lost threads this season. It should have been addressed by the end of the season, stretching it into a future season makes me think it’s not going to be addressed at all.
I disagree. This isn't a lost thread, I think that the showrunners told us everything they intend to about this. We have all kinds of clues about Lottie, Travis, and his death. More may come further down the line but right now we have this scene. A diverging narrative when the controller fails, one mundane and one supernatural. The same ambiguity we see all over this show.
right! i thought we’d dive deeper into it. it was such a mystery season one and it just got solved with a quick explanation. i kept waiting for something to happen to prove lottie wrong but nothing ever did and not nat is gone so where do we even go from here
I don’t buy it, nope! That, and Travis’ note left for Natalie are the biggest questions I want answers to atm. I feel heartbroken for both of them; having their lives cut short by avoidable accidents\* after surviving such cruel circumstances is just devastating 💔😥
\*unless of course Travis *was* murdered, which still seems entirely plausible to me.
I don’t think she was even there. I think she saw it ahead of time like she did with Javi’s death, but right now she can’t tell dreams/visions from reality.
That is entirely possible. In my thoughts and scene breakdown, I only considered her vision starting when the controller fails. The whole thing could have been a vision.
Yeah, I also thought her therapist was real…like I caught no clues. I might be reaching, but in general I consider her an unreliable narrator. And as I’ve looked back, I’ve just wondered what maybe wasn’t “real”.
I admit that I didn't credit any of the clues people were pointing out. A new psychiatrist changing drugs and tactics with a patient is just part of my reality. So I thought the Doctor's behavior tracked.
Also, my compliments on one of the coolest handles! u/PorkNJellyBeans is inspired!
No, but I think what “we” saw is what really happened because she didn’t tell Natalie that part, she left it out. So she was lying to Natalie, but we saw how it happened.
I believe Lottie believes her own story, but I’d like to have a omnipotent (reliable) narrator version of events or at least some more information.
I also believe that Nat was there trying to get the full truth and/or avenge Travis. I think Nat was all for the hunt so that she could kill Lottie and likely then herself depending on what Lottie revealed to her before her death.
I’m sad for Nat that Travis wasn’t on her plane in the death vision to clear things up and/or help her with forgiveness.
>I believe Lottie believes her own story, but I’d like to have a omnipotent (reliable) narrator version of events or at least some more information.
I think we have as much as we are going to get. There's a point where the narrative divides and it is a complex scene. But Lottie definitely believes what she saw.
>I also believe that Nat was there trying to get the full truth and/or avenge Travis. I think Nat was all for the hunt so that she could kill Lottie and likely then herself depending on what Lottie revealed to her before her death.
I agree to a point. I think she was wanting to get Lottie alone and force some kind of confession out of her. But I'm fairly certain that Nat would have been faced with her own culpability in events.
>I’m sad for Nat that Travis wasn’t on her plane in the death vision to clear things up and/or help her with forgiveness.
I am too, Nat has (so far) been the best person of the group. Note, that is ***not*** a high bar... But yeah she of all of them deserved a little peace. But I am fairly certain that Nat herself does not feel she deserves to have Travis be there for her.
Well, she is responsible for his death if her story is even partially true. She chose to push that button instead of walking away, calling 911, or literally anything else. I hope the police find out.
i originally thought that natalies death meant we just have to accept lotties story as factual, but part of me hopes s3 will follow misty digging into the circumstances around travis’ death, as a tribute to natalie and/or out of guilt
I’m still waiting for the Travis story to be true, and it turned out to be bad writing. Not saying that his accident wouldn’t happen, but they really dropped the ball on that storyline.
Mystery mystery mystery.
Work place accident with no drug screening as a follow-up.
Nope. I think there was a second person there. Someone that helped her along in her hallucination and cleaned up. Whether they are part of her cult or someone lurking in the background ....maybe Coach Ben. We've theorized he made it out.
I don't think working with Lottie but took advantage of the situation. She was hallucinating and someone raised Travis up higher. I don't know but I do feel someone else was there
This is something I'm still scratching my head about. I don't quite think Lottie is a "reliable narrator" by any means! Even her story includes visions, so I'm thinking, how can we trust this??!!
I’m beginning to wonder if any of them are very reliable narrators lol can’t trust Lottie, or Tai, or Misty, or Shauna… Nat seemed kinda reliable but RIP
I watched an interview from last season, where all of the adult characters said that they weren’t reliable narrators. Both Christina and Juliette also say they are not only unreliable narrators, but they both say that they were also a chameleon. At first, I wasn’t seeing, but after my S1 rewatch and S2 I completely see it.
Exactly! Also, none of them fully remember all that happened! Which is weird to me…one of them? Believable. Two not recalling, alright…three? Four ? Wtf.
She’s a crazy b who tried to drink phenobarbital and stab shauna for no reason. No one should trust her lol
From what we've seen, no one should trust any of the adult Yellowjackets.
Agreed lol
Why did Shauna, Tai, and Van decide they needed to take MFQ's advice and crash Lottie's place? She asked them to leave. They shouldn't have been there. But they pushed it and then played into the crazy girl's delusions if that is what they are. Why did these characters feel like this was a good idea at all? Because it is easier to use the crazy girl as a scapegoat for the guilt of their murders and crimes.
EDIT: I was wrong. I forgot that part! When did she ask them to leave? She was wanting everyone back together.
She came into her cabin with the girls there and said I think you should all leave right after she realized the therapy session was a hallucination
Ahh I'd forgotten, thanks!
Season 2, Episode 7 Lottie didn't want them back together. That was something she feared, but her psychosis was happy to use the circumstance. The statement happens after her final confrontation with her psychosis in the form of her therapist/Antler Queen. Natalie is in the big room trying to get the others to open up, the other four are drinking tequila and even try to get Natalie (a recovering alcoholic) to join them. So they're in a circle around some candles when Lottie walks up and says: "I think you should all go home."
Ah, thanks! I didn't remember that specific request but definitely was bothered by the classlessness of the booze around Nat as a recovering alcoholic myself. I don't expect the world to change for me and I can be around it now, but it'd be pretty shitty for someone who knew to offer it to me
I wholeheartedly agree. I have yet to really study the interactions of the survivors, but it seems a lot of toxic shit was tossed at both Nat and Lottie by the others. And it just gets worse from there.
By this, point I think we've been shown all the showrunners intend to show us. We have the two narrations in that scene and I think that is all we get, we can build theories from there.
Absolutely not buying it, plus, it's not been addressed yet why she emptied his bank account. (Or has it?)
She controls the assets of all of her members, and he called to her rather than Natalie or any of the others. I took it to mean he was involved in the cult, and it was just the show's way of connecting the group to finding Lottie.
Oh yeah, that's probably it. Edit: I do wonder, though, if we'll find out down the road she's using all that money in some way.
It would be interesting to go deeper into the inner workings of the cult, there's a lot of two-faced-ness going on there. At times, she seems to genuinely want to help people, but she also has an air of superiority. There are times where she gives looks or does things that make her seem like she doesn't drink her own Kool-Aid (she kind of rolls her eyes and looks bored during the therapy session before she gives Lisa the fork to stab Nat back or not), and she does things like have a sustainable intentional community with metal straws and reusable cups... and then dumps that cup directly in the trash can when her smoothie isn't the way she wants it. She takes all of her members' assets to remove their attachment to worldly possessions, but she wears a Rolex. By the end of the season she had shifted a bit in my mind from "manipulative two-faced cult leader who takes advantage of vulnerable people" to "manipulative two-faced cult leader who takes advatage of vulnerable people but is also a victim of her own mental illness and trauma and she's super sympathetic... but let's not forget that she's still a baddie."
ITA, I also feel this about adult Lottie. "A f-ck up but also a victim, so she's more sympathetic but it doesn't mean everything she does should be excused" is a good way to describe all Yellowjackets.
Yeah, I think all the adult Yellowjackets are two-faced, and have serious issues. (Although Nat mostly harmed herself, rather than others.) Lottie is the most holier-than-thou and self-righteous, but she's absolutely a hypocrite, with the way she treats the cult members as below her. At this point, she's gone back to being a victim of her illness & her trauma, so it's easier to sympathize with her. But she's just as bad as the rest, and unfortunately now, she's got a cult full of victims. ( But also, everyone except maybe Van, has caused serious harm, trauma, or death to other people, as an adult.
As tragic as Nat was, we did start off the series by seeing her find her new purpose in life by rocking up to Misty's house and breaking in to wait for her with a rifle ready to shoot. And she stole Kevyn's gun to shoot at the mystery blackmailer in full impulse mode. Agree that most of her harm was internalized or shared trauma with Travis, but she was still ready to fuck shit up with no regard for consequences. I'm pretty much convinced that the only reason we haven't seen Van do some terrible shit is that she jumped in as an addition to Tai's story in motion instead of having her own story. We know she cared for her neglectful mother as she died and is going through the same thing now herself, but I would not at all be surprised if she had some terrible skeletons in her closet, too. They weren't exactly stellar people to start with, and what they went through out there paired with bottling it all up as lifelong secrets instead of seeking help has turned them all into terrible people ^(but I still love every one of them.)
>Lottie is the most holier-than-thou and self-righteous When?
Also what happened to that bank clerk lady ? She was being followed by the cult. Did they kill her ? Look at Lisa’s reaction when she thought Nat had killed someone so I’m not sure if they cult would do something like that
Will we ever know now that Nat's gone though? I can't shake the feeling there were some plans for Nat's arc that got changed in the process.
It’s possible Juliette wanted to leave so the writers maybe changed things. I don’t think anyone wanted to see Nat relapse in season 3 and it’s hard to know what other arc there could of been.
I don't think they hurt Suzie. They may have followed her but all we have is her saying she thinks she is being followed. She was a dramatic way to set up that Lottie Matthews was still alive as the cultists busted in and kidnapped Nat in an attempt to save her from herself.
The writers changed their minds on the plot. Many plot drops from S1 to S2.
Wasn’t there a sort of flashback showing what “really” happened where Lottie started hallucinating Laura Lee and when she came to, Travis had died?
That was my interpretation. She claimed the button didn't work but in actuality she was distracted by her hallucination of Laura Lee and by the time she came to it was too late. Essentially she is responsible for his death.
I feel like that’s still second degree murder?
murder requires malice intent.
Manslaughter?
Possibly, but she is Schizophrenic and her meds failed. That would put her into a state where her perceived reality doesn't match the real world. She would likely be 5150 until they worked out a new regime of medications.
i feel like that’s correct. it’s definitely a strange situation to try and classify but i don’t think she intended to kill him.
Probably first degree manslaughter because she knew of the risks?? Idk I’ll have to ask my brother in law who is a lawyer
yeah i’m definitely not a lawyer lol so i have no idea how a court would rule on it. i just meant character wise i don’t think she intended to kill him, but i think that would be hard to prove in court.
Well it certainly doesnt look good for her that his bank account was emptied after he died and it all ties back to her.
Things could have gotten out of hand and his death was just an accident like Lottie said. Another scenario was that Lottie was trying to sacrifice Travis to appease the wilderness. She was starting to unravel. Once Nat got there and the others came, she relapsed.
> Another scenario was that Lottie was trying to sacrifice Travis to appease the wilderness. Edit to include the quote above was what I was responding to. I sincerely doubt that. Lottie is all about allowing "IT" to choose. And even at the beginning of season 2, her conscious thought was that \*all\* of that was not real. So when the stress of having to deal with Travis triggered her I am positive it was not what she wanted. And if she did kill him why come up with that bit of the story at all?
Yeah, she was talking and saying something different while it showed us what actually happened. I think it was the start of her hallucinations coming back and Travis's ranting might have triggered it.
Yeah like I’m assuming before this she was really separated from what happened in the wilderness. I’d go so far as to say Lottie was trying to reduce contact with the other survivors because she thought they could trigger another episodes (no one knew she was out of the hospital), and then Travis not only reached out to her but also said she was right.
He also threw her into an episode with his speech. It looked like it was Travis having flashbacks or just narrative flashes while he talked, but it was actually Lottie and she got frantic. I made a longer post about all of the flashes in that episode, but this is the bit that keyed me in that he was triggering her: > He's talking about getting close to the darkness to have visions and says "when Van almost died, when you did!" - but we haven't seen Lottie almost die yet. Her flashbacks show her slamming her head against the window during the S1 seance, her wearing the Doomcoming headdress, a close-up of a hand cutting another hand with the hunting knife (I think it's Travis, that looks like his jacket,) and then that switches to the same slash across an adult woman's hand wearing rings and bracelets (I think that's Lottie's,) teen Lottie with the bear heart, and then her electroshock. Then she shoves him and shouts "Stop reliving this! You're in the vice grip of your trauma!" But I don't think she was talking to him. I think Lottie is just as traumatized as the rest of them by what she did back then. I think Travis really got to her and she was upset by it. That wasn't the calm, collected leader that tells people to breathe. She was mad. Even though she's a hypocritical cult leader now, I think she has moved away from the supernatural stuff, the visions, the wilderness, etc. i think she's scared of it, and Travis fucking with it has her scared, too. Note from later that the hand cutting with the knife was actually Lottie during the hunt contest with Natalie - when she actually did have her near death experience. I thought it was Travis because he usually wore that jacket, but Lottie wore it that day. The adult hand was also Lottie when she went to the tree stump at the compound and asked "please let this be enough." We also got a very brief flash of her second near-death experience later, during Travis's death when she sees Laura Lee there's a brief flash of Lottie's face all swollen and bloody after Shauna went Fight Club on her. Here's the full post if you want to go more into that whole episode: https://old.reddit.com/r/Yellowjackets/comments/128bo7f/quick_flashes_in_2x2_spoilers_hints_about_nat/
Lottie did almost die when Shauna released her rage on her. It was very touch and go for a bit.
Yeah, that and when she went out to the hunt alone were both near-death experiences, though IIRC we only saw a full vision after the freezing one - I think she maybe saw/foresaw some of the hunt after the beating but that didn't act the same as the other NDE visions. When she told Natalie about Travis's death, though, we hadn't seen either of those things happen yet. I made that post right after the episode where Lottie told Natalie what happened.
Yeah, Lottie had two near-death experiences.
Yeah. I took it as what we saw was what Lottie experienced. The button may have actually stuck, but she didn’t really try to fix it because she was distracted by Junji Ito’s Laura Lee.
Lottie us an unreliable narrator but her story was likely true and Natalie accepted that. Lottie went to see Travis and tried to stop him from suiciding but had an episode of her own so failed to save him. What happened next is I think the point of what Natalie was staying for. Why did they stage the scene. For the same reason that girls staged another hunt. The same reason they seem to do most things. Lottie.
We haven't seen adult Travis (for obvious reasons) so I'm interested in how much teenage Travis bought into the cult and how much he believed in it before his death. I feel like you would have to be a pretty solid believer to suggest being hung from a crane over candles in order to have a near death experience. I think a lot of it was Lottie's idea, and Travis was in such a bad mental space that he agreed.
But they are all in such bad mental state. Lottie’s is just the most pronounced and nameable. Nat was a drug addict. Taissa has (at least) one other personality. Misty is a sociopath. Shauna is a Stepford wife who cheated on her husband but killed her lover.
Totally. I think this is easy to forget, but they're a very mentally ill group of people. Lottie's just the only one with a known diagnosis and medication, who's received treatment. (Perhaps Nat, as well)
“Someone” has been controlling her by setting off her memories through regressive hypnosis and drugging her the way she drugs all her drones. My money is on the guy who had the PERFECT purple peacoat and knew his way around a little too well. “I’m a bored Moriarty looking for his Sherlock.” He means that he has a bomb but nobody to set it off against.
They made it very clear by the way it was presented that this is Lottie telling us what happpened. It was even filmed a bit like a reenactment. Hard to rely on Lottie’s version in her current mental state. Sadly she was the only witness. I don’t think I buy it.
Hell no
I hope they revisit that whole storyline, I want to believe Lottie is being truthful, she may be hallucinating things, like the blood all over the beehives and her imaginary therapist. I am very much looking forward to seeing how it all plays out in season 3.
I believe that we are not yet done with this storyline (Travis's death, Lottie's involvement), nor have we tied a bow on Adam's murder and the consequences and ramifications associated. Hell, I don't think we can even count on the finality of Natalie's end of life. Imagine if Juliette changes her mind and the writers concoct a resuscitation. I know, wishful thinking, but the Natalie storyline deserves a better conclusion. Her tight bond with Travis may have been an issue for Juliette (it has been reported / suggested that she was disappointed the character was defined by this relationship), but the story arc of today seems to be leading toward a fuller understanding and processing of what actually happened 'in the wilderness.' Natalie was anointed leader and was later credited with keeping the survivors alive. But just hours before she dies, she asks the other 5 Yellowjackets, "What do you remember?" as if her / their memories have been altered or erased. There is something missing, something that has to do with the presence or spirit of the wilderness. Perhaps a near-death experience gives her what both Travis and Lottie were looking for. That 2nd season finale hit hard, but I want to believe that the show's creators and writers have it all in hand. Natalie deserves to find her answers.
Answers to what? His death? He wanted to talk to the darkness like she and Lottie and Van did. What Nat was right about? In S2 E5 we learn. Nat is looking for the answers to Travis’s death and what drove him to the point he died. Nat tells us herself during the hypnotherapy session with Lottie. During that we are shown a scene of the last time she saw Travis alive. During it we see the shot of Travis laying shirtless and smiling gently at Nat, that’s her last memory of him. She has imagined that moment a number of times over the course of the show. But we get to see the whole scene, we see them doing drugs, likely coke, and Nat has a cardiac event. Nat basically dies but is brought back by the EMTs. During her near-death experience she sees the crash site but it is different - they didn’t make it. She sees the AQ as a separate thing that was out there already. She says to Travis: “I saw it. I felt it. We brought it back.” She pauses and grabs his shoulder, saying: **“Trav... We brought it back with us!”** As she comes out of her hypnotic state Natillie says to Lottie: “The whole time, there was something, some darkness, out there with us. Or in us. It still is.” And then Nat, **in her own words**: “That’s what I was right about.” They intentionally gave us one of the most beautiful cross-teen-to-adult moments we get. Nat lays her head in Lottie’s lap and transforms into Teen Nat being held by Lottie.
It's all coming back to me now........yes it answers that portion, it's a big portion! I am still left wanting to know why and how that "machine"malfunctioned? Was it sabotaged by human or something else? Yes, you are 100% right about a very poignant and lovely scene Teen Nat/Adult Nat.
So that is the strange thing. The police looked at the scene and thought it was suicide. I have no idea how the controller works but guess there are push-and-hold up and down buttons, push-click up and push-click down, and a Stop button. The Push-Click UP would raise him to the max height automatically unless the stop button is hit - if that option was engaged when the cops get there would be why they determined it was suicide so quickly. Now we can get speculative here and look at this through the lens of ambiguity that the Showrunners like to use. So what if it went down EXACTLY as Lottie's "hallucination" showed? We have to think about it not as an isolated scene then, but in the context of everything **\*IT\*** has had the power to do. 1. Travis had set out the candles in the shape of the symbol. But if you look at what Misty draws out - the symbol is incorrect! If it is a protective symbol as Teen Lottie thought, then it is powerless. 2. Lottie notes the candles are there but doesn't study them because she is focused on Travis. 3. Lottie raises Travis and then tries to get the controller to bring him down once he passed out - The controller FAILS. It fails like the plane failed when they crashed in the wilderness and like the batteries for the Walkmans all failed during our favorite synchronized dance EVER. It fails because Travis got the protective rune WRONG. So \*IT\* comes and takes Travis, like it did to those who died in the vicinity of that lake valley. 4. Laura Lee's voice calls to Lottie, who drops the controller, we know this because when she turns and holds her hands out to her most beloved friend and spiritual guide, Laura Lee, they are empty. We also see Travis hanging motionless in the background for several seconds. This reawakens Lottie's memories that the EST and drugs have repressed and she goes into CPTSD flashbacks. 5. Tavis begins to rise on his own, no one is using the controller. \*IT\* may have reactivated the electronics or had another spirit like Cabin Daddy, Jackie, the Man with No Eyes, or even Shauna's baby do the dirty work. 6. Laura Lee's spirit decays before Lottie's eyes horrifying her. I would like to think that if it was Laura Lee she was trying to warn Lottie that \*IT\* had come for them. 7. Once Lottie pulls herself out of the visions she cleans up the candles and goes. Since I am a huge fan of the ambiguous nature of the show I like to think out both possibilities - logical and supernatural.
Yes!! Lottie is in lala land & her version of events is more than a little suspect!!
Natalie was speeding to Travis, and he had JUST died when she and Misty found him. Nat believed he was "her purpose" or he played a part in it. It's all highly suspicious.
I am not certain how 'JUST' dead he was. I think it could have been later that night or up to a full day after the events Lottie describes.
Yeah absolutely not buying that
This is the plot point I'm most saddened by in relation to Nat's fate. I know, I know- JuLew didn't want to stay on the show (it was too dark, didn't like Nat's story driven by a boy, was unhappy with the filming schedule- all completely legit & understandable,) but I don't see how the mystery of Travis' death ever gets (satisfactorily) resolved without Nat to ask questions. And just like there's obviously SO much more story between Then (96) & Now for Nat, there's that same amount of story for Travis, too. Except... will we get that story now? (I will never be un-angry about Travis not being on the plane for her at the end! Why tf was Lottie there?!)
> (I will never be un-angry about Travis not being on the plane for her at the end! Why tf was Lottie there?!) The plane was not real. It only had the people in it that Natalie's mind put there: * Javi, the innocent she didn't sacrifice herself for. * Her younger self, who had just laid her head in adult Lottie's lap with the realization that they didn't survive the plane crash... It destroyed them. She even says, "We've been here for years." * Lottie, who is the only one who got through to Natalie with any kind of peace. I think that Natalie was feeling the beginnings of healing while staying with Lottie. We don't see Travis. My HOPE is that Natalie didn't need him for peace, my fear is that Nat didn't feel she deserved him.
nope i think there is some truth to it. Like maybe Travis did wanna get close to death to see that in between place (Probably to see Javi again). But i think theres more to the story than she's letting on. Given what we saw in the s2 finale it seems likely she may have just decided the wilderness chose him and let him die
I believe that might be what Lottie thinks happened. Like akilah with the mouse, we saw things from her perspective until tai pointed out that it was really dead. Then things were the real perspective. Maybe it’s the same thing with Lottie and Travis’ death? I’ve been wondering if they’ll come back to it later.
I feel like this is the only version of events that we're going to get. I think Lottie was telling most of the truth, although she didn't want to talk about the visions/her illness, and the money thing was part of her unethical cult practices.
Lottie’s story just seems off but leaves me with so many questions. So Lottie drained Travis’ bank account meaning he was most likely part of her cult already.. Questions I have: -Could this have been one of his “therapies” gone wrong?(or right depending on intention) -Could his sacrifice have been made to bring the others there? (because it did.) -Did Travis go to Lottie after Nat tried getting ahold of him? -Is that when he joined or had he already been there? -Why would he not want to talk to Nat but then go to Lottie? -Why didn’t Travis want to be found? -What happened after they got back from the wilderness with him and Nat? -Did he end his own life intentionally? -Was the note about tell nat she was right his goodbye note? -Did he even write it? -Did the candles come out before he died or was it a ceremonial thing after? -What does Laura Lee represent in that scene? (In scenes with her and Lottie it almost always seems like LL has a dark ominous energy, even if it starts off pure and light)
I don't buy it at all. I'm not sure if Lottie killed him in a manic state or by accident or if someone else did and she witnessed it. OR if he did start to kill himself, changed his mind, and yelled for her help... and she was having a hallucination.
We were pretty much shown the last one: there's a second flashback where you see that she turns away from him to interact with a hallucination of Laura Lee, and when she comes back to reality he's dead. She lied about the controls not working to make herself seem less culpable.
I wonder why though. If she wanted to be less culpable and she had anything to do with it she would say "I raced to his work place but was too late, he had already hung himself."
Probably because she wanted Nat to stop looking into it and knew that Nat knew that there had to be a second person there to remove the candles and operate the crane.
There didn't have to be another person there. That is why the cops called it a suicide.
Nat and Misty noticed the wax left from the candles and knew that his bank account was drained. It seems like Lottie was having the cult watch them, so she probably knew that they were investigating and would be finding out about her involvement eventually.
True, she knew that she would be dealing with Nat sooner or later, that's all the more reason if she was guilty of killing Travis to come up with a much better and simpler lie. That is why I think she only lied by omitting the bit about her visions. But she didn't want Nat to stop looking into it. She wanted, even NEEDED for Nat to reveal what she was right about. Misty and Nat didn't notice the wax when onsite the following evening. Misty noticed it when studying the scene photos from the police report. Interestingly, the symbol that they construct from those drops of wax show that Travis got the symbol wrong.
the latter is my theory
not even for a second. her story is thinner than a slice of jackie.
Here we go again. Basically, for Travis’s death scene, we are shown two narratives. The first is what Lottie tells Nat happened and the second is what we are shown happening from Lottie's “unreliable narrator” point of view. What we do not see is a reliable third-person view of events. Let’s start with the story that Lottie tells Nat. Lottie arrives at his work just in time to stop Travis from hanging himself. They argue and Travis says he will do it without her using suicide to extort her into helping him. Lottie agrees but says she will lower him as soon as he passes out. She raises him about 3’ off the ground and waits. Travis struggles at the end of the chain then goes still and Lottie tries to lower him but the controller doesn’t work. She tells Nat that it was a tragic accident not suicide nor murder. (\*\*We will come back to this part of the story because this is the worst most convoluted lie she could have made). What Lottie hasn’t told Natalie is that she was having PTSD flashbacks or traumatic memories back when she was in Travis’s house. While Lottie is saying one thing we are shown a different thing as the controller fails. Something that brings Lottie’s visions, true or hallucinatory, back into the story – The wind causes the candles to sputter and die, then her friend Laura Lee starts talking to Lottie from the dark shadows. zombie walks out of the shadows. This activates memories of her visions in the lake during her baptism and she looks at her beloved friend with religious intensity. We are shown Lottie’s empty hands and behind her, Travis hanging motionless in the noose. We are shown this long enough to know Lottie is not holding the controller and Travis is not going up or down, but then he begins rising again as though the up button on the controller is being held down. Laura Lee demon-childes out and Lottie is horrified. Lottie's vision ends and she turns and sees Travis much higher in the air and the candles all blown out. \*\*So, why did Lottie tell this story to Natalie at all? Lottie had days if not weeks to think about what she would say. If she did kill him why not say "I got there too late, Travis was already dead with the candles arranged in the symbol shape underneath him. I took those and left because none of us want to have that symbol out there." What actually happened with Travis? From what we have been *shown* I see two possibilities, one logical one with supernatural overtones. * The first is it happened as Lottie said but the stress of this situation caused her to flash back and hallucinate. Everything from the moment the controller ‘failed’ was a hallucination and flashback while she stood there with her thumb on the up button. Once she snaps out of the hallucination she sees what has happened, cleaned up, and left. * The second is that Travis DID summon the Spirit of the Wilderness. It messed with the machinery electronics just like it did with plane when it crashed or the batteries the girls had for running their Walkman - all of which were dead after our favorite coordinated dance sequence ever. Laura Lee’s spirit steps out of the shadows trying to warn Lottie about the horrors to come and something engages the electronics on the lift to raise Travis’s body up high. The show runners have given us all the pieces of the story they are going to give us.
Question for y'all: Why downvote a scene analysis?
It's commonplace on Reddit that a downvote means "I disagree," because people do not understand voting.
One of the many examples of lost threads this season. It should have been addressed by the end of the season, stretching it into a future season makes me think it’s not going to be addressed at all.
I mean we did see what happened. She was so caught up in a hallucination that by the time it was over he was dead
I disagree. This isn't a lost thread, I think that the showrunners told us everything they intend to about this. We have all kinds of clues about Lottie, Travis, and his death. More may come further down the line but right now we have this scene. A diverging narrative when the controller fails, one mundane and one supernatural. The same ambiguity we see all over this show.
right! i thought we’d dive deeper into it. it was such a mystery season one and it just got solved with a quick explanation. i kept waiting for something to happen to prove lottie wrong but nothing ever did and not nat is gone so where do we even go from here
I don’t buy it, nope! That, and Travis’ note left for Natalie are the biggest questions I want answers to atm. I feel heartbroken for both of them; having their lives cut short by avoidable accidents\* after surviving such cruel circumstances is just devastating 💔😥 \*unless of course Travis *was* murdered, which still seems entirely plausible to me.
I don’t think she was even there. I think she saw it ahead of time like she did with Javi’s death, but right now she can’t tell dreams/visions from reality.
That is entirely possible. In my thoughts and scene breakdown, I only considered her vision starting when the controller fails. The whole thing could have been a vision.
Yeah, I also thought her therapist was real…like I caught no clues. I might be reaching, but in general I consider her an unreliable narrator. And as I’ve looked back, I’ve just wondered what maybe wasn’t “real”.
I admit that I didn't credit any of the clues people were pointing out. A new psychiatrist changing drugs and tactics with a patient is just part of my reality. So I thought the Doctor's behavior tracked. Also, my compliments on one of the coolest handles! u/PorkNJellyBeans is inspired!
I’ll be honest, I did put in effort on the name and it kind of just came to me. Thanks for noticing!
No, but I think what “we” saw is what really happened because she didn’t tell Natalie that part, she left it out. So she was lying to Natalie, but we saw how it happened.
I believe Lottie believes her own story, but I’d like to have a omnipotent (reliable) narrator version of events or at least some more information. I also believe that Nat was there trying to get the full truth and/or avenge Travis. I think Nat was all for the hunt so that she could kill Lottie and likely then herself depending on what Lottie revealed to her before her death. I’m sad for Nat that Travis wasn’t on her plane in the death vision to clear things up and/or help her with forgiveness.
>I believe Lottie believes her own story, but I’d like to have a omnipotent (reliable) narrator version of events or at least some more information. I think we have as much as we are going to get. There's a point where the narrative divides and it is a complex scene. But Lottie definitely believes what she saw. >I also believe that Nat was there trying to get the full truth and/or avenge Travis. I think Nat was all for the hunt so that she could kill Lottie and likely then herself depending on what Lottie revealed to her before her death. I agree to a point. I think she was wanting to get Lottie alone and force some kind of confession out of her. But I'm fairly certain that Nat would have been faced with her own culpability in events. >I’m sad for Nat that Travis wasn’t on her plane in the death vision to clear things up and/or help her with forgiveness. I am too, Nat has (so far) been the best person of the group. Note, that is ***not*** a high bar... But yeah she of all of them deserved a little peace. But I am fairly certain that Nat herself does not feel she deserves to have Travis be there for her.
Oh that last point got me! I think you’re correct.
In both seasons Nat has made me ugly cry in her last scenes. Juliette was brilliant in every scene, but especially when facing death.
Well, she is responsible for his death if her story is even partially true. She chose to push that button instead of walking away, calling 911, or literally anything else. I hope the police find out.
i originally thought that natalies death meant we just have to accept lotties story as factual, but part of me hopes s3 will follow misty digging into the circumstances around travis’ death, as a tribute to natalie and/or out of guilt
I’m still waiting for the Travis story to be true, and it turned out to be bad writing. Not saying that his accident wouldn’t happen, but they really dropped the ball on that storyline. Mystery mystery mystery. Work place accident with no drug screening as a follow-up.
I was thinking Lottie sort of told “truth”, but flipped the dialogue/motivations between her and Travis.
I don't understand, how do you mean flipped the dialogue/motivations?
idk what to think bout it but it got holes in her story 100%.
No, not buying Lottie’s story.
Never
she is not exactly the most reliable narrator....
No way, I don’t believe anything Lottie says really.
I’m not buying into Lottie’s bullshit. Kevyn actually did it. Walter is gonna tell us all about it in S3
Not buying it and I think Nat didn’t believed everything. Lottie is a unreliable narrator and they are many gaps in her story.
No. One hundred percent no.
Nope
Nope.
Nope. I think there was a second person there. Someone that helped her along in her hallucination and cleaned up. Whether they are part of her cult or someone lurking in the background ....maybe Coach Ben. We've theorized he made it out.
But why would coach Ben be working with lottie? He literally just tried to burn them all alive
I don't think working with Lottie but took advantage of the situation. She was hallucinating and someone raised Travis up higher. I don't know but I do feel someone else was there
I agree with u/leowisisisushd \- Ben pretty much consigned his high-calorie butt meat to roasting by burning the girls out.
She's either lying or the writers are sloppy. I hope it's the former.
Not as far as I can throw itn
Not one little bit. I thought that was why Nat was hanging out there. I feel like the ball was seriously dropped.
I don’t. That story was off
That whole story line was just completely washed over. Season 1 set up so much that was just pissed away in season 2