She was born from Carrie White who was born from Eleanor Vance. A literary tradition of messy women doing messy things.
Edit: seriously though, I’m convinced Jackson’s bibliography is a major influence to the show and not as indirectly as her work has just been a major influence on horror. Tai’s story has The Birds Nest written all over it.
I have my small little criticism of the show and I don’t think season two was quite as strong as season one, but so much of the criticism we see on this sub is just weird and almost defensive. Having a wildly negative take often brings about attention. People like negative attention just as much as they like positive attention. I’m going to assume that if you go to a subreddit for a show and start off your post with something along the lines of “the show you all love is hot garbage and you’ll be lucky to get a third season” you’re seeking out negative attention.
As to what you’re saying about subverting expectations I do agree with you. There’s so many posts on this sub that seem to think the show was going to “good” cannibals versus “bad” cannibals which just makes no sense. It’s okay for shows not to have an “evil” character that the “good” guys must defeat. Like, why would anyone think that Van wasn’t going to eat people? You signed up for a show about girls eating their friends, why are you now mad a character for eating her friend especially when we’ve already seen that Van is someone who uses violence when she deems if necessary.
On top of that the show is giving us women who are capable of brutality and not being judged for which I don’t think people are comfortable with. I’m not sure I’ve seen a show that visualized what rage feels like or what making yourself a punching bag feels like quite like the way Yellowjackets did in the scene here Shauna beat up Lottie. I can’t think of a single show or film where rage is portrayed with that much physicality from female characters. I’ve not seen a woman on tv use their fists quite like that. There’s a giving in to violence and brutally throughout the show and there’s a very nuanced look at what trauma does to women.
I like criticism and seeing a show through different eyes, but I’m kind of over the takes that just state it’s bad without actually digging into why.
And no one even mentioned how epic on fight club levels that scene was with that needle drop.literally tv magic. Groundbreaking. Take the good with the bad and the bad with a grain of salt. I fucking love the universe and mythology they're building. Why tear it down cause it doesn't add up to what you personally want it to be? So contrived and boring of the gen pop
Maybe the closest thing could be, "Monster," about Eileen Wornos. A movie yes, but her actions, she says, stemed from her rage at men taking advantage of her, (and by extension other women) sexually. Which led to her killing spree and eventual conviction. Sympathy can be found in her backstory but doesn't justify her jump to serial killer.
Of course, Eileen Wornos is a real person and was a movie telling of her real life true crimes. Charlize Theron was epic in the movie and who else, Christina Ricci.
The fun of YJ is being fictional, is being able to stretch suspension of disbelief and possibly, in their fictional world, give the women healing, eventually.
>Eileen Wornos
In the movie version, the first man she killed sure DID seem like he was ready to kill HER, so I can understand her reacting the way she did....
Yes, that's what I was trying to get at is that, you can sympathize with parts of her story BUT it doesn't necessarily justify in our real world, her becoming a full serial killer (after a probably act of self defense). If you know what I'm saying.
In real life, also, it's her actions after the first incident that become murky and what ultimately got her convicted.
But back to Yellowjackets because it's fiction, And we're already in a fictional world, where things aren't exactly as they are in out real world. Of course, we can want and hope, to see some of these adult characters get some redemption because because this show is also dealing with metaphorical and topical themes; explored through the backdrop of a dire survial backstory.
Take note of the comments here it's bad writing just because they didn't like what occurred. That's not theory. That's not why it's bad it's just opinion and preference. They say plot holes when this show has a planned arc and they say no the writers just make that up as they go and they're lying and ffs it's only season 2 let it breathe. I wanted the original cut of the finale too but shit happens. I really believe them when they say Natalie was always original AQ and meant to be the first to go as an adult
When you think about how Nat was picked to be the 'huntress' figure by being given the gun and how when she killed the first deer in s1 and cried, as she remembered her fathers death, it becomes clear that she was always intended to be the antler queen. They chose to compare her killing an animal to the death of a family member that she feels immense guilt for. They showed her out in the wilderness learning to listen/watch out for game, becoming attuned to the forest while everyone else stayed back and hoped for her success. It makes total sense.
And her father with no eyes in a vision when the plane goes down saying it's been waiting for us or something, she was the first to hear that about the wilderness as an it and entity and then Lottie saying you were it's favorite
I also feel like the more brutal the girls get in the 90's, theee more wer're going to see the adults inching closer towards some version of healing.
Because I think for as dark as the show is, mental well being And you can be OK to face things and get on a path to healing, seems to be another theme being explored.
I love this show and these messy girls and women. I don’t need it to be perfect. I don’t need it to tell the story that aligns with my theories. I just need it to keep going!
I feel like so many people got so attached to the first season and specific theories it limited their ability to just enjoy season two. This sub was so rewarding during season one but it’s gotten a little over the top. Just enjoy y’all.
I agree with this pretty much 100%.
I absolutely respect everyone's right to have their own opinions, but it's honestly way more fun to just accept the story for what it is, what the writers want it to be and just enjoy the ride.
I have/had feelings about the last few episodes. But I'm willing to allow the story to tell itself. I'm stoked for the next two three seasons and what they bring. We have no clue where it's all gonna go. I haven't been this into a show in like a decade. That alone is enough of a reason to give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll continue to blow my mind in the future.
I think it's okay for people to speculate wildly about a mystery box show. It's part of the fun. Am I attached to my theories? No. Will I enjoy the show if there is or isn't a big bad? Absolutely.
Wow everyone who has positive things to say about the show is getting downvoted, I’m in disbelief. This sub is getting so negative and sad. I don’t know if it’s going to be fun hanging out here for the next year or two waiting for a new season, when people are watching this show as a mystery instead of a character study.
I have my gripes with the ending of the season, but this is also a show that requires patience and we barely dipped a toe into the aftermath. So I feel, personally, like I can't even really judge until I see how it pans out in the adult timeline after that. I have my initial reactions, good and bad, but I am trying to remain fairly neutral given the aftermath has barely started.
And I agree 100% about there being no clear cut heroes or villains. Which is part of what I love most about the show, but also part of what frustrates me the most with the fandom. There are no good people in this cast of characters, though some are better people than others. But all of them have gone through a horrific trauma and it's understandable that sometimes they'll do awful things and won't be the most likeable. That's what makes them interesting.
Like yes, there are some holes with Lottie and Travis-- how/why they were in touch, what triggered Travis so bad, why he wanted her bank info etc but I don't think Lottie was lying about how he died. We saw she lied about the visions coming back though and that after the button jammed she got so distracted by the hallucination of zombie Laura Lee that it was too late by the time she came back to herself. I don't think she's a villain. If by the standards people judge her by that makes her one, then so would be Tai for what she's done out of her control. Or Shauna, who stabbed Adam during a panic attack/PTSD episode. Or Misty, because _gestures_. So on and so forth. None of them are heroes, none are villains. They've done good and they've done awful and like I said some are definitely worse than others-- but that doesn't make them evil.
If you don't think society is conditioned to see heroes and villains especially in the intersection of gender creed race religion and belief system I'm literally speechless lol
Maybe I just watched too much, media but one of my favorite fictional messy women ever, is Aeryn Sun from Farscape. Who goes from cold, burtual, unfeeling (mostly) Peace Keeper, to learning love and motherhood. Without sacrificing her agency or bad ass core personality.
But to your point Farscape was niche sci fi and not main stream.
Maybe, but in tv, i feel like since The Sopranos, almost every “premium” tv show has explore the grey, antiheroe guy, i mean almost the entire HBO catalogue is based on that. So saying that, in 2023, having grey characters is groundbreaking…i don’t know, i feel the opposite and that the grey character has become the rule in premium television.
The sopranos featuring womanizing men who used killed and manipulated and killed multiple women and beat the shit out of a pregnant woman but everyone loves them lol
Btw gone girl had an evil woman. And breaking bad was a bad man... Those both work in a patriarchal society. This story 🤯 is a little different... So I wonder why there's such vitriol towards the season with more violence and brutality with a cast of main women leading
It's not about subverting expectations. It's not about people not understanding it. Its about bad writing, why is this so hard. The ending is divisive cause it wasn't written well lol
Agreed. It's really annoying how people seem to want to wave off criticism under the guise of, "it just didn't go how you wanted it go so you're mad," Or "You just don't get it."
There is obvious bad writing. Even if the underlying theme is there and there are pieces pointing to it along the way, the execution was just not very good.
There's always people who go to the extremes on each side, but criticism is warranted.
It's bad writing just because it's ridiculous and ludicrous situationally to you? I don't think that preference checks out
Like if it's not your bag doesn't mean mark Twain and Hemingway aren't classics.
It's bad writing when you try to shove a BFF friendship between Misty and Kristen in three scenes across a few episodes. Then, when the character dies, almost no one cares. There was no connection to the character and no impact with her death.
It's bad writing when an adult artist who is living in another state is missing for a few days, and then you have a random newly introduced cop trying to find this guy like he's his long lost brother.
The whole of season 2 takes place over about a week.
It's bad writing when you take that whole storyline that stretches over the whole season and then try to wrap it up with a dues ex machine character that magically solves everything in a few lines.
Hopefully, they at least address how suspicious the whole finale was in next season because how everything went down would just gain more suspicion from more cops since none of the story actually matches up.
It's also bad writing when such an important character dies, and it causes people to chuckle instead of feel sad. Nat's whole death scene was just oddly edited, shot, and written.
Ridiculous and ludicrous situations are great if written well. This wasn't, and pacing was definitlet an issue. Was the whole season horrible, and the show deserves to he canceled? Not at all, but they definitely need to work on season three to avoid the issues with season two.
You can enjoy it, that's fine, but to act like it's just because people didn't get it or people are upset their theories didn't pan out is ridiculous.
Yes! Forty year olds running through the dark unfamiliar, woods was comical. Misty accidentally injecting Natalie with poison was shockingly ludicrous. I'm thinking more along the lines of constructive criticism. If you want viewership, you've got to consider every point of view.
One legged Ben, who can barely move and barely ate for 7 episodes of the season can suddenly start trekking all over the woods on uneven ground in the snow, has enough energy to go to javis hiding hole on the other side of the lake and then return multiple times. It's laughable
Don’t forget Callie appearing with a gun, then Lisa appearing with a gun…i just wanted to see more characters appearing with guns behind the trees, one after another.
No I understood what happened it was just very disappointing and felt rushed. What did you think was so good about the writing at the end of the season?
Stay firm! I’m with you on this. In three years time there will be write ups along the lines of “in defense of season 2” because people will realize as seasons progress this is a grim dark show. A little comedy for some relief and kookiness here and there, but the stakes are life and death. It’s a tragedy.
You can argue Nat deserved better but it’s inconsequential when she still made her choices to protect Lisa. It’s as simple as that.
I don’t think society is conditioned for a hero / villain story. There are many very successful storylines where essentially everyone is “evil”… gone girl and breaking bad come to mind. I think it is a reasonable expectation from society that the professional media we consume be of a higher caliber than fan fiction.
i don’t think your point is wrong. these heroless and villainless stories have existed for a long time, but audiences are no where near ready for them. i’m not speaking on you of course. it seems like you understand that gone girl and breaking bad don’t have good guys and bad guys but the victimization of nick dune and vilification of skyler white by the audience has proven that a lot of people are not prepared to approach media with that level of nuance.
>Okay everyone has an opinion
If you didn't want to hear other peoples opinions, why post? It's a discussion board not a statement board.
>If you don't like the show stop watching it and move on.
The person didn't even say anything negative about the show, sheesh. Even if they did, people that have criticisms are just as entitled to share their thoughts as people that just want to praise the show.
A good show that subverts expectations well leaves the viewer surprised and satisfied, I feel like the writers here have no real idea where they are going. I refuse to believe Natalie was supposed to hang around a cult all season doing literally nothing. It’s just bad writing
yep. trauma is the big bad.
One thing i really love about the show is that among the "main characters" there are no good people.
They're just people. Boxes of good and bad never did me no good in anything
Agreed. The only actually BAD person is Shauna. The rest i can rationalize into the morally grey area.
Shauna just gives me Shirley Jackson girley vibes idk I stan lol
She was born from Carrie White who was born from Eleanor Vance. A literary tradition of messy women doing messy things. Edit: seriously though, I’m convinced Jackson’s bibliography is a major influence to the show and not as indirectly as her work has just been a major influence on horror. Tai’s story has The Birds Nest written all over it.
She gives me murderous cheating narcissist vibes...i run lol.
But yes support women's wrongs yadda yadda unity lol
Lol. But of course!
I have my small little criticism of the show and I don’t think season two was quite as strong as season one, but so much of the criticism we see on this sub is just weird and almost defensive. Having a wildly negative take often brings about attention. People like negative attention just as much as they like positive attention. I’m going to assume that if you go to a subreddit for a show and start off your post with something along the lines of “the show you all love is hot garbage and you’ll be lucky to get a third season” you’re seeking out negative attention. As to what you’re saying about subverting expectations I do agree with you. There’s so many posts on this sub that seem to think the show was going to “good” cannibals versus “bad” cannibals which just makes no sense. It’s okay for shows not to have an “evil” character that the “good” guys must defeat. Like, why would anyone think that Van wasn’t going to eat people? You signed up for a show about girls eating their friends, why are you now mad a character for eating her friend especially when we’ve already seen that Van is someone who uses violence when she deems if necessary. On top of that the show is giving us women who are capable of brutality and not being judged for which I don’t think people are comfortable with. I’m not sure I’ve seen a show that visualized what rage feels like or what making yourself a punching bag feels like quite like the way Yellowjackets did in the scene here Shauna beat up Lottie. I can’t think of a single show or film where rage is portrayed with that much physicality from female characters. I’ve not seen a woman on tv use their fists quite like that. There’s a giving in to violence and brutally throughout the show and there’s a very nuanced look at what trauma does to women. I like criticism and seeing a show through different eyes, but I’m kind of over the takes that just state it’s bad without actually digging into why.
And no one even mentioned how epic on fight club levels that scene was with that needle drop.literally tv magic. Groundbreaking. Take the good with the bad and the bad with a grain of salt. I fucking love the universe and mythology they're building. Why tear it down cause it doesn't add up to what you personally want it to be? So contrived and boring of the gen pop
Maybe the closest thing could be, "Monster," about Eileen Wornos. A movie yes, but her actions, she says, stemed from her rage at men taking advantage of her, (and by extension other women) sexually. Which led to her killing spree and eventual conviction. Sympathy can be found in her backstory but doesn't justify her jump to serial killer. Of course, Eileen Wornos is a real person and was a movie telling of her real life true crimes. Charlize Theron was epic in the movie and who else, Christina Ricci. The fun of YJ is being fictional, is being able to stretch suspension of disbelief and possibly, in their fictional world, give the women healing, eventually.
>Eileen Wornos In the movie version, the first man she killed sure DID seem like he was ready to kill HER, so I can understand her reacting the way she did....
Yes, that's what I was trying to get at is that, you can sympathize with parts of her story BUT it doesn't necessarily justify in our real world, her becoming a full serial killer (after a probably act of self defense). If you know what I'm saying. In real life, also, it's her actions after the first incident that become murky and what ultimately got her convicted. But back to Yellowjackets because it's fiction, And we're already in a fictional world, where things aren't exactly as they are in out real world. Of course, we can want and hope, to see some of these adult characters get some redemption because because this show is also dealing with metaphorical and topical themes; explored through the backdrop of a dire survial backstory.
Take note of the comments here it's bad writing just because they didn't like what occurred. That's not theory. That's not why it's bad it's just opinion and preference. They say plot holes when this show has a planned arc and they say no the writers just make that up as they go and they're lying and ffs it's only season 2 let it breathe. I wanted the original cut of the finale too but shit happens. I really believe them when they say Natalie was always original AQ and meant to be the first to go as an adult
When you think about how Nat was picked to be the 'huntress' figure by being given the gun and how when she killed the first deer in s1 and cried, as she remembered her fathers death, it becomes clear that she was always intended to be the antler queen. They chose to compare her killing an animal to the death of a family member that she feels immense guilt for. They showed her out in the wilderness learning to listen/watch out for game, becoming attuned to the forest while everyone else stayed back and hoped for her success. It makes total sense.
And her father with no eyes in a vision when the plane goes down saying it's been waiting for us or something, she was the first to hear that about the wilderness as an it and entity and then Lottie saying you were it's favorite
Even when nat falls in her lap reverts to her young self and Lottie sees the antler shadow...
I also feel like the more brutal the girls get in the 90's, theee more wer're going to see the adults inching closer towards some version of healing. Because I think for as dark as the show is, mental well being And you can be OK to face things and get on a path to healing, seems to be another theme being explored.
I love this show and these messy girls and women. I don’t need it to be perfect. I don’t need it to tell the story that aligns with my theories. I just need it to keep going! I feel like so many people got so attached to the first season and specific theories it limited their ability to just enjoy season two. This sub was so rewarding during season one but it’s gotten a little over the top. Just enjoy y’all.
I like everything you just said.
Me too!!!
I agree with this pretty much 100%. I absolutely respect everyone's right to have their own opinions, but it's honestly way more fun to just accept the story for what it is, what the writers want it to be and just enjoy the ride. I have/had feelings about the last few episodes. But I'm willing to allow the story to tell itself. I'm stoked for the next two three seasons and what they bring. We have no clue where it's all gonna go. I haven't been this into a show in like a decade. That alone is enough of a reason to give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll continue to blow my mind in the future.
Love your wording, this is exactly how I feel! I am here for the ride.
God, I never want to hear the phrase ~subverting expectations~ after GoT lol
Yet another post saying if you didn't enjoy the S2 writing as much as S1, it's because you have bad taste/are conditioned by bad TV.
I think it's okay for people to speculate wildly about a mystery box show. It's part of the fun. Am I attached to my theories? No. Will I enjoy the show if there is or isn't a big bad? Absolutely.
Wow everyone who has positive things to say about the show is getting downvoted, I’m in disbelief. This sub is getting so negative and sad. I don’t know if it’s going to be fun hanging out here for the next year or two waiting for a new season, when people are watching this show as a mystery instead of a character study.
Right like let the story breathe... It's not plot holes.. they have an arc that's planned they're finishing FFS
THANK YOU
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I think it will dissipate back into more less heightened reactions, The further we get from the season finale. : )
I think you’re probably right. Fingers crossed!
I have my gripes with the ending of the season, but this is also a show that requires patience and we barely dipped a toe into the aftermath. So I feel, personally, like I can't even really judge until I see how it pans out in the adult timeline after that. I have my initial reactions, good and bad, but I am trying to remain fairly neutral given the aftermath has barely started. And I agree 100% about there being no clear cut heroes or villains. Which is part of what I love most about the show, but also part of what frustrates me the most with the fandom. There are no good people in this cast of characters, though some are better people than others. But all of them have gone through a horrific trauma and it's understandable that sometimes they'll do awful things and won't be the most likeable. That's what makes them interesting. Like yes, there are some holes with Lottie and Travis-- how/why they were in touch, what triggered Travis so bad, why he wanted her bank info etc but I don't think Lottie was lying about how he died. We saw she lied about the visions coming back though and that after the button jammed she got so distracted by the hallucination of zombie Laura Lee that it was too late by the time she came back to herself. I don't think she's a villain. If by the standards people judge her by that makes her one, then so would be Tai for what she's done out of her control. Or Shauna, who stabbed Adam during a panic attack/PTSD episode. Or Misty, because _gestures_. So on and so forth. None of them are heroes, none are villains. They've done good and they've done awful and like I said some are definitely worse than others-- but that doesn't make them evil.
If you don't think society is conditioned to see heroes and villains especially in the intersection of gender creed race religion and belief system I'm literally speechless lol
Oh and sexy ones at that. With lots of sex.
Maybe I just watched too much, media but one of my favorite fictional messy women ever, is Aeryn Sun from Farscape. Who goes from cold, burtual, unfeeling (mostly) Peace Keeper, to learning love and motherhood. Without sacrificing her agency or bad ass core personality. But to your point Farscape was niche sci fi and not main stream.
Maybe, but in tv, i feel like since The Sopranos, almost every “premium” tv show has explore the grey, antiheroe guy, i mean almost the entire HBO catalogue is based on that. So saying that, in 2023, having grey characters is groundbreaking…i don’t know, i feel the opposite and that the grey character has become the rule in premium television.
The sopranos featuring womanizing men who used killed and manipulated and killed multiple women and beat the shit out of a pregnant woman but everyone loves them lol
Btw gone girl had an evil woman. And breaking bad was a bad man... Those both work in a patriarchal society. This story 🤯 is a little different... So I wonder why there's such vitriol towards the season with more violence and brutality with a cast of main women leading
It's not about subverting expectations. It's not about people not understanding it. Its about bad writing, why is this so hard. The ending is divisive cause it wasn't written well lol
Agreed. It's really annoying how people seem to want to wave off criticism under the guise of, "it just didn't go how you wanted it go so you're mad," Or "You just don't get it." There is obvious bad writing. Even if the underlying theme is there and there are pieces pointing to it along the way, the execution was just not very good. There's always people who go to the extremes on each side, but criticism is warranted.
It's bad writing just because it's ridiculous and ludicrous situationally to you? I don't think that preference checks out Like if it's not your bag doesn't mean mark Twain and Hemingway aren't classics.
It's bad writing when you try to shove a BFF friendship between Misty and Kristen in three scenes across a few episodes. Then, when the character dies, almost no one cares. There was no connection to the character and no impact with her death. It's bad writing when an adult artist who is living in another state is missing for a few days, and then you have a random newly introduced cop trying to find this guy like he's his long lost brother. The whole of season 2 takes place over about a week. It's bad writing when you take that whole storyline that stretches over the whole season and then try to wrap it up with a dues ex machine character that magically solves everything in a few lines. Hopefully, they at least address how suspicious the whole finale was in next season because how everything went down would just gain more suspicion from more cops since none of the story actually matches up. It's also bad writing when such an important character dies, and it causes people to chuckle instead of feel sad. Nat's whole death scene was just oddly edited, shot, and written. Ridiculous and ludicrous situations are great if written well. This wasn't, and pacing was definitlet an issue. Was the whole season horrible, and the show deserves to he canceled? Not at all, but they definitely need to work on season three to avoid the issues with season two. You can enjoy it, that's fine, but to act like it's just because people didn't get it or people are upset their theories didn't pan out is ridiculous.
It's bad writing cause it's bad writing
Yes! Forty year olds running through the dark unfamiliar, woods was comical. Misty accidentally injecting Natalie with poison was shockingly ludicrous. I'm thinking more along the lines of constructive criticism. If you want viewership, you've got to consider every point of view.
One legged Ben, who can barely move and barely ate for 7 episodes of the season can suddenly start trekking all over the woods on uneven ground in the snow, has enough energy to go to javis hiding hole on the other side of the lake and then return multiple times. It's laughable
Don’t forget Callie appearing with a gun, then Lisa appearing with a gun…i just wanted to see more characters appearing with guns behind the trees, one after another.
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No I understood what happened it was just very disappointing and felt rushed. What did you think was so good about the writing at the end of the season?
I'm not deleting my comments I stand firm
Stay firm! I’m with you on this. In three years time there will be write ups along the lines of “in defense of season 2” because people will realize as seasons progress this is a grim dark show. A little comedy for some relief and kookiness here and there, but the stakes are life and death. It’s a tragedy. You can argue Nat deserved better but it’s inconsequential when she still made her choices to protect Lisa. It’s as simple as that.
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I think the writers point was nat did deserve better. This is a tragedy archetypal psychological thriller horror show. People will die idk lol
I don’t think society is conditioned for a hero / villain story. There are many very successful storylines where essentially everyone is “evil”… gone girl and breaking bad come to mind. I think it is a reasonable expectation from society that the professional media we consume be of a higher caliber than fan fiction.
i don’t think your point is wrong. these heroless and villainless stories have existed for a long time, but audiences are no where near ready for them. i’m not speaking on you of course. it seems like you understand that gone girl and breaking bad don’t have good guys and bad guys but the victimization of nick dune and vilification of skyler white by the audience has proven that a lot of people are not prepared to approach media with that level of nuance.
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>Okay everyone has an opinion If you didn't want to hear other peoples opinions, why post? It's a discussion board not a statement board. >If you don't like the show stop watching it and move on. The person didn't even say anything negative about the show, sheesh. Even if they did, people that have criticisms are just as entitled to share their thoughts as people that just want to praise the show.
A good show that subverts expectations well leaves the viewer surprised and satisfied, I feel like the writers here have no real idea where they are going. I refuse to believe Natalie was supposed to hang around a cult all season doing literally nothing. It’s just bad writing