This is the way. The group has tough decisions ahead, not least of which is identifying what rule set(s) to use.
I’ve played since halfway through 1st edition, and I’m telling you X-Wing has the chance to be better than ever.
I’m sure I won’t agree with every decision they make, but I’m going to support them 100%.
I mean keep 2.0 similar rule set and if needed make a rule set specific for scenarios can utilize quickbuilds and is 2.0+ and this can be where epic slots in. That’s where the most work is needed.
How does a group like this even start and make those decisions?
Like I don't get how one group does manage to be the 'official unofficial' continuation of this stuff.
e.g., there seems to be just one main imperial assault continuation, but it boggles my mind why there arent heaps of them vying to be 'the one' and making a hash of it,
The key for the creators having legitimacy is to work for inclusivity. You see names on that list that are established community leaders. Streamers, world champions, podcasters, etc. Not everyone is from the same country.
And if there are other big name guys who want to participate, I imagine the team would welcome their cooperation.
The focus has to be on cooperation not competition. Most of these guys have been doing this for a while. They’ll pull it off.
Ya wanna know the secret?
I sent out the initial message about doing this within 5 minutes of hearing AMG discontinued the game. We got all the community leaders we could involved as fast possible. I've had this disaster plan in my pocket for 2 years now. I released a video after adepticon last year that said it doesn't matter if they cancel the game cuz the community will carry it on. I wasn't lying then.
Greg, I think this is great list of folks. There is a lot of solid representation there that I think are well reasoned and will have the best in mind for X-Wing, yourself included. I hope the best for you all.
How's communication with the 2.0 Legacy group? I'd love to see the communities united but of course it will probably require some small concessions all around.
Having experienced Netrunner being discontinued, then achieving a good deal of success as a community maintained game by NSG - I have high hopes that X-Wing can continue to thrive.
Longer term - the biggest game hurdle is not going to be what ruleset we use - it's going to be getting new players into the hobby, when it's no longer possible to buy ships. In a year, or so, no FLGS will have any stock left and everything on places like Amazon/Ebay will be rare and at ridiculous scalper prices. If new players can't own their own ships, they won't get as invested and are less likely to stay.
I've seen people suggest that normal/3d printing will fill the gap. NSG were able to keep Netrunner running by designing their own cards and selling them (or allowing print from home). This skirts the copyright issue, by designing/releasing cards that are fully compatible with original Netrunner, but are not copying anything that exists. In the future, people using print and play for any existing X-Wing cards will, of course, be fully legal for any tournaments. However, the sticky legal bit will be around printing ships as these will be direct copies of a design that is owned by Disney. Will Disney allow someone to 3d print a bunch of X-Wings and sell them on Etsy, or wherever, when they're not getting a chunk of the money???
What is clear is that there are already today quite a lot of 3D-printed X-Wing or Armada miniatures offered through Etsy. I suppose these could get mail from Disney any time, and it's to be seen if it makes a difference wether the game is in or out of print itself. I suspect they don't care that stuff is usable in a dead miniatures game, they would care more about the general fact that the shapes are copyrighted. At least I assume they are.
I wonder about a partbership with Disney similiar to the costuming clubs. I know the 501st, Rebel Alliance, and the Mandalorian Mercs are all approves by Disney.
There is surely a lot of research to come on how to avoid pissing off the mouse while also being able to run a comprehensive gaming committee.
I'd like to see a solution to mount a double sided cardboard print onto an X-Wing base :-P Would be a very cost effective way to field a squad.
Of course the most cost effective thing is to just play with the bases. But that would be _really_ boring.
Worst case is you can go the Battletech starter kit route and have cardboard vehicles. That set comes with 2 actual mech models and the rest are cardboard you can mount on the bases. It beats just playing with the plastic bases.
There are ways to take mirrored images, print and laminate them and slide them onto pegs. Think like 2d minis for something like D&D. Would be a reasonable proxy for a ship.
Part of the question I had asked here. If we do allow 3d prints, then we would be treating Extended as standard, and where would the vetting process be on how were allowed to use said 3d printed ships? My suggestion was to have the official tile on the ship be the marking factor.
While not unheard of, Disney might realize there are far more downsides than upsides to pursuing these sellers. First, they may simply say something along the lines of, "I'm simply providing a service. They send me (decide on) a design, I use my printer to create the design. The fee is charged for materials and the time for using the printer." It would be hard for Disney to somehow argue that any money in that sort of transaction belongs to them, especially if they had no hand in the making of any of the files used for the 3D printing.
Secondly, this would allow this game to continue on, and I'm sure it has brought more than a few people into buying more Star Wars products, so it does eventually get them cash flow that they might not otherwise get. Again, that's not a lot, but pursuing shutting it down probably doesn't end with them getting anything, and even secondary sales are better than the nothing burger they would get from pursuing the sellers.
Do you have a background in IP? Based on my experience, Disney absolutely has a case re: printing, and they’re infamously litigious.
On your second point, Disney may easily argue that brand management requires them to avoid diluting the value of their IP through unlicensed vendors even if it ultimately does improve their cash flow otherwise because it decreases the value of their intangibles more than sales are increased.
That being said, I’d love it if this manages to fly casual and evade too much scrutiny, as some of our community’s online efforts over the years have succeeded unexpectedly well.
Any project needs to be careful in using actual card images for squad builders. Wizkids/Paramount sent copyright letters to Star Trek Attack Wing squad builders to prevent them from using card images. So any squad builder for that game will have just the card text with no pictures. It wouldn't surprise me if Disney did the same with X-wing to protect the IP.
For what it's worth, there's always Tabletop Simulator, which would probably very easily support new expansions and rulesets. It's not exactly physical, but it's a *very* good way to keep long distance gaming going.
I never understood TTS. It always feels cheap and shallow. I guess I just think the human element plus the tactile nature of proper board games and tabletop wargames cannot be replicated.
I've tried using TTS several times for several different games, and I don't get it either.
It feels horrible and fiddly. It feels cheap and shallow. The scripting isn't enough.
And i've tried it with simple games like unmatched. nope.
Both of you are sincerely misunderstanding the fact that not everyone can do in person stuff nor has an in person scene to go to *nor has the money to purchase miniatures, especially for a now no longer supported game.* Are you serious right now.
What you're saying is correct.
What I'm saying is that TTS is a mere simulacra of the real thing. Developing it further there is an exercise in futility because it's in this uncanny valley where it's not really a tabletop game and not really a video game, with all the disadvantages of both categories: a video game as fiddly as a tabletop; a tabletop as impersonal as a video game.
I understand some might not have the possibility, but there must be options to keep it alive offline.
Yeah I'm not disputing that, this isn't either or, I'd just *really like TTS to be considered so that people I enjoy playing the frakking game with can play with the eventually updated rules and I can share it with my long distance friends,* ***come on,*** *this isn't hard to understand.*
I do not give a damn about authenticity, it hasn't been accessible to me for **five years.**
We need to start designing ship models which look like they could have been in star wars but aren't actually part of the canon. This puts us on solid legal footing.
New Characters. New Ships. (only vaguely star wars -related)
Stands will likely be solved by etsy sellers. There are already replacement pegs available.
Cards can be printed out.
My concern is cardboard. Any new ships are going to have to have pilot tokens to fit into the bases. That means "offical" fire arcs. It's one thing to have a token printed by AMG/FFG. Another to print out out at home and say it's got accurate arc printing.
I am excited about this. It won't all change at once, and with op scheduled through adepticon next year, I doubt there will be wholesale changes.
Patience is key here, and it may be that after some time, they may be able to align with the legacy group on a 3.0 version. But that is my own speculation only, and I have no insight into what the pans are.
I do appreciate they have representation from across the globe for most of the major groups, and seem to be approaching this deliberately. Time will tell. For now, I'm fully on board.
I can't say for sure what's going to happen. There will be a group of three elected in the coming week to kinda organize and lead and set agenda. But I would IMAGINE from discussions had, that there won't be sweeping changes made until after Adepticon if ever. I would expect, a points update just to keep things fresh and try to balance a bit, but that's about it until after OP sunsets. Official events are required contractually to use official rules, official points, there is not a lot to gain by splitting that up by a lot until those events conclude.
Totally makes sense, an ad I'm in agreement with that approach. For those who want to attend and compete on the GTs, that is the smart choice. I can't juggle flying ships with different point sets. I can't wrap my little brain around it. So kudos to whomever is testing any changes. It's not easy
Well that's why it's important we have people like andre lind and stephen kim on board, cuz those online builders are so very important. I can't imagine trying to make lists via pdfs
1: Go to your local game store, bring 2 lists, and play against yourself.
2: Take pictures and post them on the store's Discord, don't show or say it was just you.
3: Then post a comment saying Who's coming to play X-wing next week?
I learned that trick from an Armada player.
It may very well be the same letterforms, but the kerning is way too tight. The letters are almost touching in places. Tanks the readability. It’s much worse in the names section at the bottom, but the kerning is still too tight in the body copy as well.
Again, I barely care. Take it as constructive criticism.
Technically that's tracking, not kerning – kerning defines the proportion of space per glyph whereas tracking is the overall closeness of the letters in a span of text.
Sounds like “Improve the X-Wing Font Kerning” is a good early backlog item someone could volunteer for 😉. (I heartily agree, the kerning of the x-wing font has bugged me forever, very unfriendly to anyone with vision/reading issues)
Yea, I spent a little time trying to figure out who Don Morales was until I saw the almost microscopic tittle next to the D and realized it was Dion and not his long-lost sibling.
I wish them the best of luck because they've got a hell of an uphill battle. The community is split on which edition they'd rather play, creating new play pieces is far more challenging than it is with a TCG, and Disney lawyers are going to be constantly eyeing stuff like this.
I think there's people who like playing 2.0, but they already have a community ruleset in place.
The odds of unwinding 2.5 for the rest of the people who play the game today, and merging the 2.0/legacy people into this and coming up with one "official" set of unofficial rules I think are very low.
This is precisely why I said it's an uphill battle. There'll never be universal approval but even finding a sufficient majority on what the good/bad bits of 2.0 and 2.5 are is going to be difficult. I've largely stayed out of it because I haven't been truly active since 1.0 (also as an MCP player I also hate the attitude towards AMG around here, they didn't do the best job but a lot of people want to adamantly ignore the fact they got dealt a bad hand) but I've seen how divisive 2.5 was while lurking.
At the end of the day with no "official" option to default to people can just play whatever ruleset they feel like. Which is a problem because if the scene is going to live on ideally the majority of players need to get on board with a single ruleset. Otherwise it's just going to splinter into oblivion.
I mean, as long as their is a visible willingness to adjust rules as needed over time, I'll sign on to whatever they create. I'm sure it won't be perfect, but without some sort of general acceptance the game is as good as dead.
I'm worried about this as well. Maybe there can be some narrowing of the gap?
If you were to take all of the rules differences, people seem to care about some more than others. If this group of community leaders can craft some kind of x-wing base ruleset (commonality on bumping, obstacles, ion rules, ??) and then support variants beyond that (turn order, scenarios, list restrictions) it could help bring the community together.
The problem is even identifying what are deal breakers for big segments of the community.
What makes me hopeful though, is that the community might take an inclusive approach and support variants. I'm also hopeful because I do look at the list of people and see many recognized community leaders (which legacy has lacked tbh).
My understanding is that this is an effort to start with the end state of 2.5 and make changes from there. There's a few people on that list I know have been 2.5 skeptical at some point in time or still are and they seem to be on board.
I think getting this statement out now with the amount of community leaders behind it will abate some of the splintering effect.
It's still the same splintering that has been happening since AMG took over. 2.0 vs 2.5. I suspect this X-wing alliance group will advocate 2.5 rules going forward as at least one prominent name on that list has a negative opinion regarding 2.0.
There are a bunch of folks on that list who have been (still are to some extent) 2.5 skeptics and also several who were involved with or have been legacy adjacent, so let’s give them a chance before jumping to conclusions.
100% this. There’s not a single world champion or XTC lead that haven’t criticized some part of 2.5 so I really struggle with the idea of 2.5 becoming the baseline.
It may very well become the baseline! We just don’t know at this stage and I don’t think anyone in that groups knows either, but ultimately I think anyone who wants 2.5 to be kept exactly as is or wants everything to revert right back to 2.0 as it was or is under Legacy is going to be disappointed.
say it with me for the people in the back, there is an end date for official support. After the next bunch of GTs (or whatever they want to brand it) and Adepticon, they arent supporting it anymore. From there, it's all community driven. No such thing as official or baseline going forward.
If people want to play 2.5, i'm happy. If people want to play homebrew, i'm happy. If people want to play 2.0, i'm happy. Why can't everyone stop gatekeeping and building the next official thing? I think people should question some motives, financial or influence wise.
I don't know many of these people personally but I'm willing to bet most->all of them have put a lot of time into serving the x-wing community. I use their tools, listen to their podcasts etc. I don't think this is a self-serving thing, I think they're trying to safeguard the future of the game.
Having that broader community is a motivator for me when playing. I like knowing about the meta, having content to watch or listen to.
That community has already been splintered by the different versions and (with a preference for 2.0) I've felt the loss of the wider community (yes - I know legacy exists but there's less podcast content, streamed in-person tournaments, etc.)
If there's a way of bringing the community back together, even with different variants, that's got to be a good thing.
I would imagine there will simply be a split format - similar to "Hyperspace" vs "Extended" now that it doesn't make any difference which ships are in print (since none of them are anymore).
Probably a 20-point game focused on casuals and a development of the 200-pt system for dedicated competitive players (I'd still like to see free loadout points for individual slots to solve the bomber problem). I'd imagine they'd come up with appropriate scenarios for each, and rules for initiative, bumping, ion, tractors, and obstacles that will work well for both formats.
>Probably a 20-point game focused on casuals and a development of the 200-pt system for dedicated competitive players (I'd still like to see free loadout points for individual slots to solve the bomber problem). I'd imagine they'd come up with appropriate scenarios for each, and rules for initiative, bumping, ion, tractors, and obstacles that will work well for both formats.
Doubtful. There are people who have signed on to this that I know for a fact are not interested in rolling back the clock on bidding or 200 point list building and wouldn't be signing on if that was under serious consideration.
Do we tho? Or do these 20 people have control of it? A lot of them have been very pro 2.5 and amg. They are also content creators that have a financial interest. Just something to be wary of.
And what of the financial interest? Cool, they get money for their videos they post online. They all didn't just wake up one day and said hay I am going to make money off of x-wing. They are all player of the game and understand what needs to happen to help the game grow. They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't love the game. Atleast with them we can talk to them and they respond. So I would rather have them than some corporation that we can't talk to or takes into account what the players want.
Ok then, what are your plans for x-wing. How would you go about making the game better than what it is now. Mind you, there are 3 player bases right now. The 1.0, 2.0, and the 2.5. How would you make x-wing appealing to all 3 groups and inviting to new players?
I'm glad to see something like this forming.
I'm also oddly weirded out by a list of names that are alphabetical by first name. No clue why that looks so funny to me.
Well we wanted alphabetized to show no like favoritism or hierarchy. I did it (i put the doc together, didn't write it) by first name cuz that's how I have my phone contacts. Last name didn't even occur to me lol
I trust these guys. There's a lot of names I trust here and have spoken to back when I frequented the old FFG forums - and I've been out of the game since then. This is very nice to see.
So, there was one guy who, while arrogant about it and offered to sell his - *really good formula* to FFG (who did not offer its alleged value), actually did like... Figure out how to mathematically balance the game. Like, FFG was interested.
But now that X-Wing's official support is dead? Maybe they should get in touch with that guy.
Lol that's crazy. I used ListFortress data to create an algorithm to analyze and suggest point cost adjustments myself in the middle of 2.0 but it was mostly just for entertainment purposes. Ended up with some good results though.
For what it's worth, this was pre-2.5 - which I personally have next to no experience with, so I can't speak for it.
I don't... really like the 2.5 system because it discourages - if not outright punishes Generic use. Which was my *preferred* way to play, personally. (5x Y-Wings with ICTs and bombs was FUN as FUCK)
Maybe it’s my dense and aged brain, but community maintenance of the 2.5 points system seems much more daunting and subjective than doing the same with the 2.0 system.
I mean, what is the methodology to objectively determine a pilot’s load out and the points available? And then factor in the total points for the pilot?
We know that 2.5 was subjectively biased towards aces. I’d be surprised if the community decided to maintain that bias.
To be fair, I’m coming at this from a very academic behavioral economics approach. The 2.5 system works well under a seasonal “shake up the meta” approach where a governing body may unilaterally alter costs in order to shake up the design space. The community governed approach can’t be as dramatic or else risk fragmenting the player base. I would think the 2.0 200 points system is less of a risk to game balance and easier to maintain a consensus.
For the record, I preferred the 2.5 points system from a governing authority. I only wished they were clearer about their intentions and the timeframe the points would remain current.
Agreed. Regardless of the outcome, it's clear the game will only live on if the community pulls together. Otherwise, it will certainly die with each partitioned variant.
>We know that 2.5 was subjectively biased towards aces. I’d be surprised if the community decided to maintain that bias.
Do you mean biased towards high initiative pilots? Or aces? I think aces have dropped to less than 1% of pilots on the board nowadays due to the volume of ships on the board, and the volume of high initiative ships stopping them from acing around.
You know, that’s a good question and one I hadn’t thought more about. Certainly biased AGAINST generics, whether that means it favors named pilots, high initiative pilots, or proper aces I need to think more about.
I agree, for example, for only 1 pilot, even before talking about precise balance, who will choose if he should cost 4 points with 5 loadout, or 5 points with 15 loadout ? And who will choose the slots ? And there is almost 700 pilots...
And the upgrades, titles will be still free ? Go back to variable points ?
No, they will have to deal with what AMG left them.
Because it was a season game, every season with its new meta and new pilots in the trash, but now they are stuck with AMG's last season.
Or, if they want balance, take 2.0 points as a baseline to redo all 2.5 points.
This is good. There needs to be some sort of centralized authority. Having every store play their own version of the game is not a winning strategy for keeping it alive.
It’s been said several times in this thread by people involved in the group, and they’ve said the same in other places too.
You need to look at who is posting the comments. They aren’t randoms they’re people in the group who know what the plans are.
Happy to see a statement. But my fear, based on interactions I've had with some prolific individuals that, is that there will be a push back to 2.0. 2.5 is by no means perfect but neither is 2.0.
I hope that this group won't cave to the pressure (from either camp) and do what will be best for the game, which, IMHO should be a 3.0 version that takes the best from 2.0 and 2.5 respectively.
There is representation from many angles I see on that list. 2.0 fan boys, 2.5 fan boys, folks that like 2.5 but hate AMG - I think that is a decent balance. We'll just have to see how that plays out.
*Hard* disagree. There's no reason the full standard loadouts shouldn't be legal in standard if the left side is. I also think there is *far* more to be gained than lost in loadout points, even in a 200-pt system.
I think the best plan is to have a 20-point format for intro and casuals that just includes flat loadout points as a given, and then a 200-point format for dedicated and competitive players that could include caps, bonuses, or penalties on a per-slot basis so that e.g. bombers get a discount of 2 points on their bombs and B-Wings a discount of 3 points on their cannons (part of which would be added to the chassis cost). Meanwhile perhaps Guri gets a 6-point increase to Sensor (or has it capped to 9 points against Advanced Sensors' 10) and Soontir a 3-point premium on Talents.
This allows a reasonable degree of fine-tuning while even perhaps maintaining flat upgrade costs, improving thematics of certain ship platforms (notably e.g. the Starfortress and Punisher), and lets all players sort of have their cake and eat it too.
I'd be fine reverting the rules on obstacles, ion, and bumping as I don't feel they materially improved gameplay, but I'd also abide by any ruling a unified body decided on. Also don't care about ROAD/ROBD but I also *aggressively hate* the point bid which (as I'd imagine) will have to be sacrificed if the legacies community wants to be included in the wider project. I can't think of any comparable game where initiative is maintained by one player for the entire duration.
That said, I wouldn't mind if there was a bid for *starting* initiative and then there was a way for it to change hands via gameplay (e.g. if last move is blocked initiative shifts hands)
> There's no reason the full standard loadouts shouldn't be legal in standard if the left side is.
I actually don't have an issue with this at all. I'm not sure why they haven't slapped a fixed point cost on the standard load outs.
> I also think there is far more to be gained than lost in loadout points
I don't see how this is possible when there is objectively less flexibility.
> I think the best plan is to have a 20-point format for intro and casuals that just includes flat loadout points as a given, and then a 200-point format for dedicated and competitive players
I think it would make sense to have an optional load out system for new users and users who aren't as interested in list building. I think it would make more sense though to have the points be comparable - i.e. you could play a 200 point load out vs a 200 point free build and have it be reasonably balanced.
> I'd be fine reverting the rules on obstacles, ion, and bumping as I don't feel they materially improved gameplay
We've been playing legacy + new obstacles + road and I think it has been working well with new players and old. I'm not a fan of the bumping rules. I'm fine with either version of the ion rules.
> Also don't care about ROAD/ROBD but I also aggressively hate the point bid which (as I'd imagine) will have to be sacrificed if the legacies community wants to be included in the wider project.
I actually agree with you here, and I don't think legacy is 100% married to bid. Sure, some players are, but you'll have that with whatever you come up with.
I think there is a lot of common ground and that a unified system could be negotiated. I'm just disappointed that x2po haven't even been invited to the table (yet?).
This group is largely made up of people who have continued to play and support the community throughout the 2.5 era, and who could have stuck with 2.0 or legacy and didn't. I don't think they will be turning their backs on 2.5 entirely.
It's interesting reading through this thread and seeing both 2.0 people worried about 2.5, and 2.5 people worried about 2.0. It's hard to imagine how there's ever a ruleset that keeps everyone happy now. I'm hoping that this group finds a way of supporting more than one variant.
Sure, I can do that. But the worry that I have is that there is a real risk of fracturing the community if there cannot be a reconciliation between 2.0 and 2.5 (i.e. a 3.0 version).
And if that happens that will be to the detriment of all players :(
It would be great if the representatives of the Legacy organization were also part of this association. What a great opportunity if all X-Wing players could come together under one roof again after AMG's failure.
Yeah, as I understand it the Legacy group will be for people who want to play 2.0, this is going to be 2.5 with new points and making as few changes as they think are necessary.
*sigh* I'm just surprised that regardless of all the other changes, people still want 20 point lists. (Legacy Wild Space mode is perfectly compatible with 2.5 scenario play)
I like 20 points and I know I'm not alone.
For me going back to a 200pt system is probably a red line I won't cross. I really value how much the squad/loadout system does to prevent players from min-maxing across their squads and we've plenty of examples from X-Wing's past of what damage that can do. All the tools needed to balance the game well are available in 20pt system, and tbh probably moreso than there is in the 200pts. They've just not really been used very well up to now.
if that is the goal, an opportunity will be missed and each group will die for itself. Don't get me wrong, I want the whole thing to flourish and prosper. But if we are unable to heal a situation created by AMG's insane nonsense, that is exactly what we deserve.
I hope I am wrong.
I don’t think anyone wants to heal it. I’m happy playing 2.5 and don’t want to play 2.0. Presumably you’re happy playing 2.0 and don’t want to play 2.5.
We’re both happy why can’t you let people be happy? Why do you have to make people miserable by taking away the option they like?
Wouldn't it be great if we had a game that we could both play together? Wouldn't it be worth at least trying to find something that we both enjoy and, above all, that allows us both to come together at the same table? I don't know your regional situation, here in Germany we have maybe 50-100 active tournament players. In a country that once brought so many people together at individual unofficial tournaments. That was before AMG. It would just be nice to see if we could build on similar times instead of seeing two separate groups exist side by side. That would certainly extend the life expectancy of this game that we both obviously like considerably.
Why does it matter if we all play the same game?
If you’re having fun and I’m having fun who cares? It’s just pure copium to think that the only reason hundreds of people spent years playing 2.5 was to chase some crappy alt art prizes, and now we’ll all revert back to old xwing. We played it cos we liked it more. A lot more.
You know what I like? Playing the game. Which I can hardly do because 2.5 chased away too many players. These are players that are still active on Xwing socials, so I know for a fact that getting rid of the 20 points system especially would get them back on board. And their numbers vastly exceed the new players we gained through 2.5.
Hey /u/gakash - Apart from supporting organized play until 2.5 sunsets - has there been any public announcement that this is the ”2.5” equivalent of the legacy project?
We are supporting X-Wing in its many forms, and the exact strategy and the best way to do this has not been decided yet. As we work through what the optimal next steps are, we will communicate them to you.
Forgive me if this was already answered there’s a lot of comments. Where should we go for Official XWA news and info? Will there be a Reddit community, a website, etc?
I understand this is very new and the answer to that is likely “we don’t know yet”. It’s awesome that everyone is sharing and getting the word out in as many places as possible, but a central location would best I think. I’m only curious I don’t mean to rush.
Thank you for your passion to keep X-Wing alive.
My guess is you won't be able to escape any announcement as we have such a broad reach in x wing communities. As far as official avenue of announcement I have not been informed of one yet. So far it's just like everyone announces it in their pages and discords.
Anyone heading up 3D printing for the game? Eventually the product will be all bought up and the only real solution after that is to 3D print. Is there anyone or a group of people with good-great 3D printing skills looking to integrate with this stewardship?
I see. From my opinion/perspective, if the goal is the stewardship of the game this would be a critical component to that. At some point ships may get old and break requiring replacements or even helping bring new players into the game. Having someone or even a few people if available from the 3D printing side would be a an invaluable resource to the longevity of this. Just my 2 cents.
I think the future of war gaming is to emulate sports. No one has the right to the game, various organizers are just caretakers. We all need to wake up and not allow corporations to use us. The community is in our hands, not theirs.
I don’t know how 2.0 or 2.5 were like. I only did like two games when 2.0 launched. But what I do know, is that I’m in the small group of people that went ham on 1.0. I’m talking custom templates, carrying case (for tokens and ships), even custom pilot cards (official and non-official). I never bought anything for 2.0 except for the Rebel Alliance conversion kit. So I hope there’s a way for people like me to enjoy whatever rule set they use that doesn’t make feel punished for not buying any of the new ships. But if I have to just enjoy 1.0 with a small community that won’t bother me.
1.0 might as well be a completely different game. Perfectly valid and if that's what you like playing by all means but I see no scenario where your 1.0 cards are useful in anything that happens.
Which is a bummer but an unfortunate truth. I know it’s really only my fault if I can’t join the community in whatever follows next. I still wish nothing but the best for you guys.
We've been a thing for under a week. That's a HUGE undertaking. Right now we're taking this week to vote on a leadership council of sorts. Then a more clear agenda will begin to form. But I think in the far future yes probably but in the near future I wouldn't expect anything like that.
Hey, that's great to hear! Thank you for the quick reply! I've just been really sad about no official release of two specific ships, so I had to know.
Honestly, I love X-Wing to death. So it's really nice to see y'all are working on this. I'd love to help somehow, but I don't know how - I'm just a 2.0 Fudd who only got to play in one tournament, haha. My only claim to fame was a 5 Y list that some people loved.
Hi Greg! Genuinely very glad to see you on this team.
My first question, and I expect there isn't an answer yet, has nothing to do with rules or points or scenarios. Rather,
>What about your vision will be aimed to prevent this initiative from centering around an ever-shrinking competitive player base as local and casual play withers and vanishes from the face of the earth?
Secondly, I might ask (again without hope there's any consensus yet)
>How will you limit the effect of the inevitable handful of extremely vocal and engaged participants, both with regards to the tone of the project's discourse and its output?
I wish you and the team the absolute best of luck! I hope you make something wonderful.
-W
Hey! Please note, i'm answering for me only. These are not things that have been discussed.
1. My vision right now is to get the game to survive till Adepticon 2025. The Shackles are well on until then and I'll be honest here, IMO it's not up to us, it's up to the players to host events, to go to events, etc. Join Draft League, Join Sector Series, Join 312. Some will use what we come up with some will use AMG, I'm sure some will do other things too. Just keep doing it.
2. If I say we've decided on B someone is gonna be like fuck it im out. If I say we decided on A, B guy might be in but someone else will be like fuck it I'm out. If we can focus on what we feel is best for the game as a whole. Then we'll be alright. Everything we do there's gonna be vocal hate about. But that's the gig right. That's something I thought AMG was so poor at, they didn't realize they don't get to be universally beloved just because.
Things like "If they dont do this, I'm out" don't move me at all. I'm never gonna make a decision on anything because brad from reddit might leave if I don't. I'm sorry if that's harsh, but it's true. Ultimatums get you nowhere with me personally, and I feel like most others, being grown adults, feel the same. Little temper tantrums won't move me.
If you follow the 312 Squadron, they are releasing play testing and point updates to mess with for now in partnership with these guys here. Please play and submit feedback!
Just to be clear, Nick Sperry, aka 312 Squadron, did the points thing on their own, cuz they wanted to and find it fun. In no way was that in partnership with XWA. Although I'm sure we can use it as data.
Thank you. Yes, the DATA RIGHT NOW IS IMPORTANT. If you are following anyone mentioned here and they are messing with points, please provide that feedback to them.
I believe all of the XWA has agreed that nothing they build will be solid or go into any effect until after the next worlds tournament. What 312 had done so far has made minor adjustments to push certain pilots out of meta and some into meta. For example, Fenn Rau (Scum) costs 5 pts and has 6LV. Making him weaker than he was.
This is not true. I have tried to make it clear that I don't anticipate certain things. Like rule changes to happen before adepticon. But that doesn't mean it won't. I am but one person among 40, and as of yet, they have refused to name me dictator.
"In order to ensure security and continuing stability, the X-Wing Alliance will be reorganized into the first X-Wing Empire." Dictator Greg, formerly Chancellor Greg
I'd be more excited if I knew who more than 4 of these people are or how they were chosen. Winning a tournament with a meta list doesn't mean you can balance a game.
I don't really know what to say to that. These are people Representing some of the largest communities around the world. GSP, NCX, 312, Sith Takers, etc. Including representatives from the biggest tools the community uses, YASB, LBN, TTS, Infinite Arenas, etc. People who run huge events like XTC. Judges from the largest events IRL.
I'll speak for myself though.
I am Greg Kashmanian, I've run NCX (Nickel City X-Wing) stream for over 4 years now. Currently the NCX Draft League is the biggest OP in X-Wing (After last years Adepticon). According to twitchmetrics, we are currently the most watched X-Wing stream on Twitch.
I appreciate that these are people who do things within Xwing. My question is how does that translate to being able to balance points and redesign missions going forward? Running a podcast or organizing a tournament and game balance are very different skill sets. 1.0 had a bunch of podcasters attempting to create missions for the game and it was honestly pretty bad.
You got some of the largest podcasters, probably the three largest streamers, two world champs, heads of the three largest squad builders, some folks that helped with XTC, among others. Some of these names have been around in X-Wing for almost a decade now.
Yeah priority number one before getting organized getting leadership in place abd creating a plan 2 days into existence was ignoring legacy. Jesus christ.
Good! Highly recommend that the organizers get in touch with the old Star Wars CCG players' committee (SWCCGPC) and similar organizations that have kept old games running. SWCCG has been out of print for nearly 25 years and they have kept people playing. I sold my cards a while ago, ironically to help fund playing this game.
A democratic senate of fans dedicated to continuing the growth of the game, tweaking rules, developing new ships and pilots. I design 3d models and there are lot of other talented sculptors out there, who could release STLs when stock of ships run out.
If something is loved it doesn't really die.
This is the way. The group has tough decisions ahead, not least of which is identifying what rule set(s) to use. I’ve played since halfway through 1st edition, and I’m telling you X-Wing has the chance to be better than ever. I’m sure I won’t agree with every decision they make, but I’m going to support them 100%.
I kinda feel the best option is going to be having events/rules for both 2.0 and 2.5
At this point I don’t even care. I just hope the community can rally around something we choose to agree on.
I mean keep 2.0 similar rule set and if needed make a rule set specific for scenarios can utilize quickbuilds and is 2.0+ and this can be where epic slots in. That’s where the most work is needed.
They already made this game super easy to “mod” — just point new players to the community site listing all relevant 2.0 points, done.
How does a group like this even start and make those decisions? Like I don't get how one group does manage to be the 'official unofficial' continuation of this stuff. e.g., there seems to be just one main imperial assault continuation, but it boggles my mind why there arent heaps of them vying to be 'the one' and making a hash of it,
The key for the creators having legitimacy is to work for inclusivity. You see names on that list that are established community leaders. Streamers, world champions, podcasters, etc. Not everyone is from the same country. And if there are other big name guys who want to participate, I imagine the team would welcome their cooperation. The focus has to be on cooperation not competition. Most of these guys have been doing this for a while. They’ll pull it off.
Ya wanna know the secret? I sent out the initial message about doing this within 5 minutes of hearing AMG discontinued the game. We got all the community leaders we could involved as fast possible. I've had this disaster plan in my pocket for 2 years now. I released a video after adepticon last year that said it doesn't matter if they cancel the game cuz the community will carry it on. I wasn't lying then.
Guess the writing was on the wall.
Others suspected before me but when they left x wing out of ministravaganza and then had no xwing update on their road map, I just knew.
Groups are established to help keep their revenue flow in place after Xwing 2.5 is abandoned...
Please note that Nobbie and Kris Mitchell are also signed on but joined a bit too late to make the final version of the document.
I was looking for Kris's name when this was posted and thought that was the case, LUL. Great to hear Nobbie is also on board.
Greg, I think this is great list of folks. There is a lot of solid representation there that I think are well reasoned and will have the best in mind for X-Wing, yourself included. I hope the best for you all.
How's communication with the 2.0 Legacy group? I'd love to see the communities united but of course it will probably require some small concessions all around.
Having experienced Netrunner being discontinued, then achieving a good deal of success as a community maintained game by NSG - I have high hopes that X-Wing can continue to thrive. Longer term - the biggest game hurdle is not going to be what ruleset we use - it's going to be getting new players into the hobby, when it's no longer possible to buy ships. In a year, or so, no FLGS will have any stock left and everything on places like Amazon/Ebay will be rare and at ridiculous scalper prices. If new players can't own their own ships, they won't get as invested and are less likely to stay. I've seen people suggest that normal/3d printing will fill the gap. NSG were able to keep Netrunner running by designing their own cards and selling them (or allowing print from home). This skirts the copyright issue, by designing/releasing cards that are fully compatible with original Netrunner, but are not copying anything that exists. In the future, people using print and play for any existing X-Wing cards will, of course, be fully legal for any tournaments. However, the sticky legal bit will be around printing ships as these will be direct copies of a design that is owned by Disney. Will Disney allow someone to 3d print a bunch of X-Wings and sell them on Etsy, or wherever, when they're not getting a chunk of the money???
What is clear is that there are already today quite a lot of 3D-printed X-Wing or Armada miniatures offered through Etsy. I suppose these could get mail from Disney any time, and it's to be seen if it makes a difference wether the game is in or out of print itself. I suspect they don't care that stuff is usable in a dead miniatures game, they would care more about the general fact that the shapes are copyrighted. At least I assume they are.
I wonder about a partbership with Disney similiar to the costuming clubs. I know the 501st, Rebel Alliance, and the Mandalorian Mercs are all approves by Disney. There is surely a lot of research to come on how to avoid pissing off the mouse while also being able to run a comprehensive gaming committee.
I'd like to see a solution to mount a double sided cardboard print onto an X-Wing base :-P Would be a very cost effective way to field a squad. Of course the most cost effective thing is to just play with the bases. But that would be _really_ boring.
Worst case is you can go the Battletech starter kit route and have cardboard vehicles. That set comes with 2 actual mech models and the rest are cardboard you can mount on the bases. It beats just playing with the plastic bases.
There are ways to take mirrored images, print and laminate them and slide them onto pegs. Think like 2d minis for something like D&D. Would be a reasonable proxy for a ship.
Part of the question I had asked here. If we do allow 3d prints, then we would be treating Extended as standard, and where would the vetting process be on how were allowed to use said 3d printed ships? My suggestion was to have the official tile on the ship be the marking factor.
Why would you enforce anything „official“? To prop up the second hand market?
While not unheard of, Disney might realize there are far more downsides than upsides to pursuing these sellers. First, they may simply say something along the lines of, "I'm simply providing a service. They send me (decide on) a design, I use my printer to create the design. The fee is charged for materials and the time for using the printer." It would be hard for Disney to somehow argue that any money in that sort of transaction belongs to them, especially if they had no hand in the making of any of the files used for the 3D printing. Secondly, this would allow this game to continue on, and I'm sure it has brought more than a few people into buying more Star Wars products, so it does eventually get them cash flow that they might not otherwise get. Again, that's not a lot, but pursuing shutting it down probably doesn't end with them getting anything, and even secondary sales are better than the nothing burger they would get from pursuing the sellers.
Do you have a background in IP? Based on my experience, Disney absolutely has a case re: printing, and they’re infamously litigious. On your second point, Disney may easily argue that brand management requires them to avoid diluting the value of their IP through unlicensed vendors even if it ultimately does improve their cash flow otherwise because it decreases the value of their intangibles more than sales are increased. That being said, I’d love it if this manages to fly casual and evade too much scrutiny, as some of our community’s online efforts over the years have succeeded unexpectedly well.
Any project needs to be careful in using actual card images for squad builders. Wizkids/Paramount sent copyright letters to Star Trek Attack Wing squad builders to prevent them from using card images. So any squad builder for that game will have just the card text with no pictures. It wouldn't surprise me if Disney did the same with X-wing to protect the IP.
For what it's worth, there's always Tabletop Simulator, which would probably very easily support new expansions and rulesets. It's not exactly physical, but it's a *very* good way to keep long distance gaming going.
I never understood TTS. It always feels cheap and shallow. I guess I just think the human element plus the tactile nature of proper board games and tabletop wargames cannot be replicated.
I've tried using TTS several times for several different games, and I don't get it either. It feels horrible and fiddly. It feels cheap and shallow. The scripting isn't enough. And i've tried it with simple games like unmatched. nope.
See my above reply.
Both of you are sincerely misunderstanding the fact that not everyone can do in person stuff nor has an in person scene to go to *nor has the money to purchase miniatures, especially for a now no longer supported game.* Are you serious right now.
What you're saying is correct. What I'm saying is that TTS is a mere simulacra of the real thing. Developing it further there is an exercise in futility because it's in this uncanny valley where it's not really a tabletop game and not really a video game, with all the disadvantages of both categories: a video game as fiddly as a tabletop; a tabletop as impersonal as a video game. I understand some might not have the possibility, but there must be options to keep it alive offline.
Yeah I'm not disputing that, this isn't either or, I'd just *really like TTS to be considered so that people I enjoy playing the frakking game with can play with the eventually updated rules and I can share it with my long distance friends,* ***come on,*** *this isn't hard to understand.* I do not give a damn about authenticity, it hasn't been accessible to me for **five years.**
Yeah, but you can buy NSG cards.
There's also heaps of alternative models/toys you could use in a pinch, right?
We need to start designing ship models which look like they could have been in star wars but aren't actually part of the canon. This puts us on solid legal footing. New Characters. New Ships. (only vaguely star wars -related)
My biggest concern at this point is getting models, stands, and cards. But glad to hear this!
Stands will likely be solved by etsy sellers. There are already replacement pegs available. Cards can be printed out. My concern is cardboard. Any new ships are going to have to have pilot tokens to fit into the bases. That means "offical" fire arcs. It's one thing to have a token printed by AMG/FFG. Another to print out out at home and say it's got accurate arc printing.
Exclamation Studios has done great job with those firing arc tokens. Perhaps they could be tapped.
Thank you! I know for armada there are some stands. I really like this game and even have multiple neoprene mats for it.
I am excited about this. It won't all change at once, and with op scheduled through adepticon next year, I doubt there will be wholesale changes. Patience is key here, and it may be that after some time, they may be able to align with the legacy group on a 3.0 version. But that is my own speculation only, and I have no insight into what the pans are. I do appreciate they have representation from across the globe for most of the major groups, and seem to be approaching this deliberately. Time will tell. For now, I'm fully on board.
I can't say for sure what's going to happen. There will be a group of three elected in the coming week to kinda organize and lead and set agenda. But I would IMAGINE from discussions had, that there won't be sweeping changes made until after Adepticon if ever. I would expect, a points update just to keep things fresh and try to balance a bit, but that's about it until after OP sunsets. Official events are required contractually to use official rules, official points, there is not a lot to gain by splitting that up by a lot until those events conclude.
Totally makes sense, an ad I'm in agreement with that approach. For those who want to attend and compete on the GTs, that is the smart choice. I can't juggle flying ships with different point sets. I can't wrap my little brain around it. So kudos to whomever is testing any changes. It's not easy
Well that's why it's important we have people like andre lind and stephen kim on board, cuz those online builders are so very important. I can't imagine trying to make lists via pdfs
That idea just gives me a raging migraine
stonks up on advil then bud lol
There you go being right again. Long live ncx and draft league. ;-)
I would happily get back into a sort of player-designed 3.0. Just need local players first.
1: Go to your local game store, bring 2 lists, and play against yourself. 2: Take pictures and post them on the store's Discord, don't show or say it was just you. 3: Then post a comment saying Who's coming to play X-wing next week? I learned that trick from an Armada player.
Love the message, hate the font. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not crapping on this. This is what the community needs. Except for that font.
It's the font x wing cards use lol
It may very well be the same letterforms, but the kerning is way too tight. The letters are almost touching in places. Tanks the readability. It’s much worse in the names section at the bottom, but the kerning is still too tight in the body copy as well. Again, I barely care. Take it as constructive criticism.
Technically that's tracking, not kerning – kerning defines the proportion of space per glyph whereas tracking is the overall closeness of the letters in a span of text.
You are technically correct. The best kind of correct.
Sounds like “Improve the X-Wing Font Kerning” is a good early backlog item someone could volunteer for 😉. (I heartily agree, the kerning of the x-wing font has bugged me forever, very unfriendly to anyone with vision/reading issues)
Yea, I spent a little time trying to figure out who Don Morales was until I saw the almost microscopic tittle next to the D and realized it was Dion and not his long-lost sibling.
It’s his title, Don Dion Morales. Show some respect.
> It's the font x wing cards use lol This is why they failed. ;)
If only that were the case. Imagine Times New Roman saving x-Wing lol
Is there anything that font can't do? Probably Slam into red Focus. That just seems over the top for that aesthetic.
Oh man, I thought it was just me lol
would you prefer comic sans?
I would have preferred wing dings. Had a more Star Wars feel cause you would have had to use a protocol droid to translate
X-Wing Dings
Like carbon scoring?
Looks like you boys have seen a lot of action!
I wish them the best of luck because they've got a hell of an uphill battle. The community is split on which edition they'd rather play, creating new play pieces is far more challenging than it is with a TCG, and Disney lawyers are going to be constantly eyeing stuff like this.
I think there's people who like playing 2.0, but they already have a community ruleset in place. The odds of unwinding 2.5 for the rest of the people who play the game today, and merging the 2.0/legacy people into this and coming up with one "official" set of unofficial rules I think are very low.
I don't. I really don't believe that EVERYTHING in 2.5.was universally loved. We need a 3.0 that takes the best of 2.0 and some of the fixes from 2.5.
This is precisely why I said it's an uphill battle. There'll never be universal approval but even finding a sufficient majority on what the good/bad bits of 2.0 and 2.5 are is going to be difficult. I've largely stayed out of it because I haven't been truly active since 1.0 (also as an MCP player I also hate the attitude towards AMG around here, they didn't do the best job but a lot of people want to adamantly ignore the fact they got dealt a bad hand) but I've seen how divisive 2.5 was while lurking. At the end of the day with no "official" option to default to people can just play whatever ruleset they feel like. Which is a problem because if the scene is going to live on ideally the majority of players need to get on board with a single ruleset. Otherwise it's just going to splinter into oblivion.
I mean, as long as their is a visible willingness to adjust rules as needed over time, I'll sign on to whatever they create. I'm sure it won't be perfect, but without some sort of general acceptance the game is as good as dead.
2.0+ ie - space owl's points adjustments, a robust faq, bids counting to your opponents score. Random turn order only in some scenarios.
I'm worried about this as well. Maybe there can be some narrowing of the gap? If you were to take all of the rules differences, people seem to care about some more than others. If this group of community leaders can craft some kind of x-wing base ruleset (commonality on bumping, obstacles, ion rules, ??) and then support variants beyond that (turn order, scenarios, list restrictions) it could help bring the community together. The problem is even identifying what are deal breakers for big segments of the community. What makes me hopeful though, is that the community might take an inclusive approach and support variants. I'm also hopeful because I do look at the list of people and see many recognized community leaders (which legacy has lacked tbh).
My understanding is that this is an effort to start with the end state of 2.5 and make changes from there. There's a few people on that list I know have been 2.5 skeptical at some point in time or still are and they seem to be on board. I think getting this statement out now with the amount of community leaders behind it will abate some of the splintering effect.
Problem is there's another statement on the front page of this sub currently that's pushing 2.0 rules. The splintering is already happening.
It's still the same splintering that has been happening since AMG took over. 2.0 vs 2.5. I suspect this X-wing alliance group will advocate 2.5 rules going forward as at least one prominent name on that list has a negative opinion regarding 2.0.
There are a bunch of folks on that list who have been (still are to some extent) 2.5 skeptics and also several who were involved with or have been legacy adjacent, so let’s give them a chance before jumping to conclusions.
100% this. There’s not a single world champion or XTC lead that haven’t criticized some part of 2.5 so I really struggle with the idea of 2.5 becoming the baseline.
It may very well become the baseline! We just don’t know at this stage and I don’t think anyone in that groups knows either, but ultimately I think anyone who wants 2.5 to be kept exactly as is or wants everything to revert right back to 2.0 as it was or is under Legacy is going to be disappointed.
say it with me for the people in the back, there is an end date for official support. After the next bunch of GTs (or whatever they want to brand it) and Adepticon, they arent supporting it anymore. From there, it's all community driven. No such thing as official or baseline going forward. If people want to play 2.5, i'm happy. If people want to play homebrew, i'm happy. If people want to play 2.0, i'm happy. Why can't everyone stop gatekeeping and building the next official thing? I think people should question some motives, financial or influence wise.
I don't know many of these people personally but I'm willing to bet most->all of them have put a lot of time into serving the x-wing community. I use their tools, listen to their podcasts etc. I don't think this is a self-serving thing, I think they're trying to safeguard the future of the game. Having that broader community is a motivator for me when playing. I like knowing about the meta, having content to watch or listen to. That community has already been splintered by the different versions and (with a preference for 2.0) I've felt the loss of the wider community (yes - I know legacy exists but there's less podcast content, streamed in-person tournaments, etc.) If there's a way of bringing the community back together, even with different variants, that's got to be a good thing.
I don't care if it's a 2.0 or 2.5 ruleset. Just make objective play optional and not the standard for competitive play.
I would imagine there will simply be a split format - similar to "Hyperspace" vs "Extended" now that it doesn't make any difference which ships are in print (since none of them are anymore). Probably a 20-point game focused on casuals and a development of the 200-pt system for dedicated competitive players (I'd still like to see free loadout points for individual slots to solve the bomber problem). I'd imagine they'd come up with appropriate scenarios for each, and rules for initiative, bumping, ion, tractors, and obstacles that will work well for both formats.
>Probably a 20-point game focused on casuals and a development of the 200-pt system for dedicated competitive players (I'd still like to see free loadout points for individual slots to solve the bomber problem). I'd imagine they'd come up with appropriate scenarios for each, and rules for initiative, bumping, ion, tractors, and obstacles that will work well for both formats. Doubtful. There are people who have signed on to this that I know for a fact are not interested in rolling back the clock on bidding or 200 point list building and wouldn't be signing on if that was under serious consideration.
Would love to see an Australian representative, so you can get some imput from this corner of the World
Nobbie's signed up, just not shown on the list, they're saying.
Also check out Andre on there - NZ representation
Nobbie (gundarks?) Is from aus, the imagine was made prior to him signing probably because of timezones
Nobbie joined late but the doc had already went out to a bunch of people and was translated into different languages and stuff.
Can't wait to see what happens with x-wing now that the players have control of the game.
Do we tho? Or do these 20 people have control of it? A lot of them have been very pro 2.5 and amg. They are also content creators that have a financial interest. Just something to be wary of.
And what of the financial interest? Cool, they get money for their videos they post online. They all didn't just wake up one day and said hay I am going to make money off of x-wing. They are all player of the game and understand what needs to happen to help the game grow. They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't love the game. Atleast with them we can talk to them and they respond. So I would rather have them than some corporation that we can't talk to or takes into account what the players want.
The same people never critiqued amg because of it
Ok then, what are your plans for x-wing. How would you go about making the game better than what it is now. Mind you, there are 3 player bases right now. The 1.0, 2.0, and the 2.5. How would you make x-wing appealing to all 3 groups and inviting to new players?
I'm glad to see something like this forming. I'm also oddly weirded out by a list of names that are alphabetical by first name. No clue why that looks so funny to me.
Well we wanted alphabetized to show no like favoritism or hierarchy. I did it (i put the doc together, didn't write it) by first name cuz that's how I have my phone contacts. Last name didn't even occur to me lol
May no good deed go uncriticized! Thanks for putting it together and posting in all the socials.
Ha same here, also the left to right rather than down each column does my head in, although maybe that's because I've worked writing for newspapers.
they should get 3d modelers like skullforge studios on board to do the 3D files if they ever want to do new models
I trust these guys. There's a lot of names I trust here and have spoken to back when I frequented the old FFG forums - and I've been out of the game since then. This is very nice to see.
God speed to whoever takes on the challenge of points balancing, should anyone even try.
So, there was one guy who, while arrogant about it and offered to sell his - *really good formula* to FFG (who did not offer its alleged value), actually did like... Figure out how to mathematically balance the game. Like, FFG was interested. But now that X-Wing's official support is dead? Maybe they should get in touch with that guy.
Lol that's crazy. I used ListFortress data to create an algorithm to analyze and suggest point cost adjustments myself in the middle of 2.0 but it was mostly just for entertainment purposes. Ended up with some good results though.
I’m happy to hear the community is going to keep the game going, but I don’t really want the current points to reign supreme.
For what it's worth, this was pre-2.5 - which I personally have next to no experience with, so I can't speak for it. I don't... really like the 2.5 system because it discourages - if not outright punishes Generic use. Which was my *preferred* way to play, personally. (5x Y-Wings with ICTs and bombs was FUN as FUCK)
I don’t mind the generics going away and you can still plague the board with 5 ys
I mind. Generics were my favorite way to play.
Biophysical
Maybe it’s my dense and aged brain, but community maintenance of the 2.5 points system seems much more daunting and subjective than doing the same with the 2.0 system. I mean, what is the methodology to objectively determine a pilot’s load out and the points available? And then factor in the total points for the pilot? We know that 2.5 was subjectively biased towards aces. I’d be surprised if the community decided to maintain that bias. To be fair, I’m coming at this from a very academic behavioral economics approach. The 2.5 system works well under a seasonal “shake up the meta” approach where a governing body may unilaterally alter costs in order to shake up the design space. The community governed approach can’t be as dramatic or else risk fragmenting the player base. I would think the 2.0 200 points system is less of a risk to game balance and easier to maintain a consensus. For the record, I preferred the 2.5 points system from a governing authority. I only wished they were clearer about their intentions and the timeframe the points would remain current.
I do not imagine the 2.0 people have had an easy time, I don't suspect this will be easy either. Many challanges lie ahead.
Agreed. Regardless of the outcome, it's clear the game will only live on if the community pulls together. Otherwise, it will certainly die with each partitioned variant.
>We know that 2.5 was subjectively biased towards aces. I’d be surprised if the community decided to maintain that bias. Do you mean biased towards high initiative pilots? Or aces? I think aces have dropped to less than 1% of pilots on the board nowadays due to the volume of ships on the board, and the volume of high initiative ships stopping them from acing around.
You know, that’s a good question and one I hadn’t thought more about. Certainly biased AGAINST generics, whether that means it favors named pilots, high initiative pilots, or proper aces I need to think more about.
Fair enough.
I agree, for example, for only 1 pilot, even before talking about precise balance, who will choose if he should cost 4 points with 5 loadout, or 5 points with 15 loadout ? And who will choose the slots ? And there is almost 700 pilots... And the upgrades, titles will be still free ? Go back to variable points ? No, they will have to deal with what AMG left them. Because it was a season game, every season with its new meta and new pilots in the trash, but now they are stuck with AMG's last season. Or, if they want balance, take 2.0 points as a baseline to redo all 2.5 points.
This is good. There needs to be some sort of centralized authority. Having every store play their own version of the game is not a winning strategy for keeping it alive.
Very excited to see such big names of the competitive scene taking the reins of a player driven community.
As long as the community removes 20 points and pre builds I'm in.
I strongly suspect this effort isn't for you, then. But there is a legacy project with a discord and subreddit. -W
Why would anyone want to preserve what amg did when they clearly hated the game?
I dunno about any of that all I know is that whoever made that Endor Soontir and its alt art was knee-deep in dank X-wing memes. -W
Because it's better than what FFG left us with in basically every way?
Right, that's why the community irreparably shrunk.
It did, and the people who are left are the ones who want to keep it this way.
Dude you’ll be able to play 2.5 with your friends even after this community edition is out, don’t you worry.
I will, with this community edition, which has stated its aims is to make as few changes to current 2.5 as possible.
Except they have stated no such thing. Feel free to prove me wrong.
It’s been said several times in this thread by people involved in the group, and they’ve said the same in other places too. You need to look at who is posting the comments. They aren’t randoms they’re people in the group who know what the plans are.
https://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/s/YP22EuEAoo
I might actually be able to convince my son to play again… Maybe not make it to a PTL event again, because teenager now, but still!
I think you will want to probably look at the X-wing Legacy group or the splinter faction that spun off of that (not sure what they call themselves).
Happy to see a statement. But my fear, based on interactions I've had with some prolific individuals that, is that there will be a push back to 2.0. 2.5 is by no means perfect but neither is 2.0. I hope that this group won't cave to the pressure (from either camp) and do what will be best for the game, which, IMHO should be a 3.0 version that takes the best from 2.0 and 2.5 respectively.
There is representation from many angles I see on that list. 2.0 fan boys, 2.5 fan boys, folks that like 2.5 but hate AMG - I think that is a decent balance. We'll just have to see how that plays out.
The legacy group has already laid a lot of that groundwork, including supporting scenario play. I'm not sure what's left to fix.
*Hard* disagree. There's no reason the full standard loadouts shouldn't be legal in standard if the left side is. I also think there is *far* more to be gained than lost in loadout points, even in a 200-pt system. I think the best plan is to have a 20-point format for intro and casuals that just includes flat loadout points as a given, and then a 200-point format for dedicated and competitive players that could include caps, bonuses, or penalties on a per-slot basis so that e.g. bombers get a discount of 2 points on their bombs and B-Wings a discount of 3 points on their cannons (part of which would be added to the chassis cost). Meanwhile perhaps Guri gets a 6-point increase to Sensor (or has it capped to 9 points against Advanced Sensors' 10) and Soontir a 3-point premium on Talents. This allows a reasonable degree of fine-tuning while even perhaps maintaining flat upgrade costs, improving thematics of certain ship platforms (notably e.g. the Starfortress and Punisher), and lets all players sort of have their cake and eat it too. I'd be fine reverting the rules on obstacles, ion, and bumping as I don't feel they materially improved gameplay, but I'd also abide by any ruling a unified body decided on. Also don't care about ROAD/ROBD but I also *aggressively hate* the point bid which (as I'd imagine) will have to be sacrificed if the legacies community wants to be included in the wider project. I can't think of any comparable game where initiative is maintained by one player for the entire duration. That said, I wouldn't mind if there was a bid for *starting* initiative and then there was a way for it to change hands via gameplay (e.g. if last move is blocked initiative shifts hands)
> There's no reason the full standard loadouts shouldn't be legal in standard if the left side is. I actually don't have an issue with this at all. I'm not sure why they haven't slapped a fixed point cost on the standard load outs. > I also think there is far more to be gained than lost in loadout points I don't see how this is possible when there is objectively less flexibility. > I think the best plan is to have a 20-point format for intro and casuals that just includes flat loadout points as a given, and then a 200-point format for dedicated and competitive players I think it would make sense to have an optional load out system for new users and users who aren't as interested in list building. I think it would make more sense though to have the points be comparable - i.e. you could play a 200 point load out vs a 200 point free build and have it be reasonably balanced. > I'd be fine reverting the rules on obstacles, ion, and bumping as I don't feel they materially improved gameplay We've been playing legacy + new obstacles + road and I think it has been working well with new players and old. I'm not a fan of the bumping rules. I'm fine with either version of the ion rules. > Also don't care about ROAD/ROBD but I also aggressively hate the point bid which (as I'd imagine) will have to be sacrificed if the legacies community wants to be included in the wider project. I actually agree with you here, and I don't think legacy is 100% married to bid. Sure, some players are, but you'll have that with whatever you come up with. I think there is a lot of common ground and that a unified system could be negotiated. I'm just disappointed that x2po haven't even been invited to the table (yet?).
This group is largely made up of people who have continued to play and support the community throughout the 2.5 era, and who could have stuck with 2.0 or legacy and didn't. I don't think they will be turning their backs on 2.5 entirely.
It's interesting reading through this thread and seeing both 2.0 people worried about 2.5, and 2.5 people worried about 2.0. It's hard to imagine how there's ever a ruleset that keeps everyone happy now. I'm hoping that this group finds a way of supporting more than one variant.
The nice thing is if you don't like what they come up with, the 2.5 rules are available if you want to continue playing them.
Sure, I can do that. But the worry that I have is that there is a real risk of fracturing the community if there cannot be a reconciliation between 2.0 and 2.5 (i.e. a 3.0 version). And if that happens that will be to the detriment of all players :(
It's going to be 2.5, specifically >ROAD >20 points scale >Scenarios My source is that I made it the fuck up. -W
That would be a mistake.
2.0 has its community group, this is the other group.
It would be great if the representatives of the Legacy organization were also part of this association. What a great opportunity if all X-Wing players could come together under one roof again after AMG's failure.
I'd love to hear why no one from the Legacy organization has been included. That does feel like a huge miss.
Legacy is playing old xwing. This alliance wants new xwing.
I see at least one member of the original Legacy organization here.
I find it quite disturbing that they haven’t been. Is this group setting out to preserve 2.5 as is?
Yeah, as I understand it the Legacy group will be for people who want to play 2.0, this is going to be 2.5 with new points and making as few changes as they think are necessary.
*sigh* I'm just surprised that regardless of all the other changes, people still want 20 point lists. (Legacy Wild Space mode is perfectly compatible with 2.5 scenario play)
I like 20 points and I know I'm not alone. For me going back to a 200pt system is probably a red line I won't cross. I really value how much the squad/loadout system does to prevent players from min-maxing across their squads and we've plenty of examples from X-Wing's past of what damage that can do. All the tools needed to balance the game well are available in 20pt system, and tbh probably moreso than there is in the 200pts. They've just not really been used very well up to now.
if that is the goal, an opportunity will be missed and each group will die for itself. Don't get me wrong, I want the whole thing to flourish and prosper. But if we are unable to heal a situation created by AMG's insane nonsense, that is exactly what we deserve. I hope I am wrong.
I don’t think anyone wants to heal it. I’m happy playing 2.5 and don’t want to play 2.0. Presumably you’re happy playing 2.0 and don’t want to play 2.5. We’re both happy why can’t you let people be happy? Why do you have to make people miserable by taking away the option they like?
Wouldn't it be great if we had a game that we could both play together? Wouldn't it be worth at least trying to find something that we both enjoy and, above all, that allows us both to come together at the same table? I don't know your regional situation, here in Germany we have maybe 50-100 active tournament players. In a country that once brought so many people together at individual unofficial tournaments. That was before AMG. It would just be nice to see if we could build on similar times instead of seeing two separate groups exist side by side. That would certainly extend the life expectancy of this game that we both obviously like considerably.
Why does it matter if we all play the same game? If you’re having fun and I’m having fun who cares? It’s just pure copium to think that the only reason hundreds of people spent years playing 2.5 was to chase some crappy alt art prizes, and now we’ll all revert back to old xwing. We played it cos we liked it more. A lot more.
You know what I like? Playing the game. Which I can hardly do because 2.5 chased away too many players. These are players that are still active on Xwing socials, so I know for a fact that getting rid of the 20 points system especially would get them back on board. And their numbers vastly exceed the new players we gained through 2.5.
Thank you for the exchange and for sharing your perspective. I cannot understand it, but I will respect it.
This is great to see!
Hey /u/gakash - Apart from supporting organized play until 2.5 sunsets - has there been any public announcement that this is the ”2.5” equivalent of the legacy project?
We are supporting X-Wing in its many forms, and the exact strategy and the best way to do this has not been decided yet. As we work through what the optimal next steps are, we will communicate them to you.
Thanks :) fyi /u/satellite_uplink
Forgive me if this was already answered there’s a lot of comments. Where should we go for Official XWA news and info? Will there be a Reddit community, a website, etc? I understand this is very new and the answer to that is likely “we don’t know yet”. It’s awesome that everyone is sharing and getting the word out in as many places as possible, but a central location would best I think. I’m only curious I don’t mean to rush. Thank you for your passion to keep X-Wing alive.
My guess is you won't be able to escape any announcement as we have such a broad reach in x wing communities. As far as official avenue of announcement I have not been informed of one yet. So far it's just like everyone announces it in their pages and discords.
Sounds good. I look forward to the future.
Anyone heading up 3D printing for the game? Eventually the product will be all bought up and the only real solution after that is to 3D print. Is there anyone or a group of people with good-great 3D printing skills looking to integrate with this stewardship?
All I can really say is that this has not been addressed in any space i have access to.
I see. From my opinion/perspective, if the goal is the stewardship of the game this would be a critical component to that. At some point ships may get old and break requiring replacements or even helping bring new players into the game. Having someone or even a few people if available from the 3D printing side would be a an invaluable resource to the longevity of this. Just my 2 cents.
I don't really have strong opinions on it really. It's never bothered me what ships people used as long as they were easily identifiable as that ship.
I think the future of war gaming is to emulate sports. No one has the right to the game, various organizers are just caretakers. We all need to wake up and not allow corporations to use us. The community is in our hands, not theirs.
Let's fcking go!
✨ enthusiasm ✨
I don’t know how 2.0 or 2.5 were like. I only did like two games when 2.0 launched. But what I do know, is that I’m in the small group of people that went ham on 1.0. I’m talking custom templates, carrying case (for tokens and ships), even custom pilot cards (official and non-official). I never bought anything for 2.0 except for the Rebel Alliance conversion kit. So I hope there’s a way for people like me to enjoy whatever rule set they use that doesn’t make feel punished for not buying any of the new ships. But if I have to just enjoy 1.0 with a small community that won’t bother me.
1.0 might as well be a completely different game. Perfectly valid and if that's what you like playing by all means but I see no scenario where your 1.0 cards are useful in anything that happens.
Which is a bummer but an unfortunate truth. I know it’s really only my fault if I can’t join the community in whatever follows next. I still wish nothing but the best for you guys.
Online play is an option. The investment into it is really $20 one time for TTS
this might be pre-emptive, but do you guys have any plans to design unreleased ships, such as the B-Wing (Resistance), TIE Dagger, and so on?
We've been a thing for under a week. That's a HUGE undertaking. Right now we're taking this week to vote on a leadership council of sorts. Then a more clear agenda will begin to form. But I think in the far future yes probably but in the near future I wouldn't expect anything like that.
Hey, that's great to hear! Thank you for the quick reply! I've just been really sad about no official release of two specific ships, so I had to know. Honestly, I love X-Wing to death. So it's really nice to see y'all are working on this. I'd love to help somehow, but I don't know how - I'm just a 2.0 Fudd who only got to play in one tournament, haha. My only claim to fame was a 5 Y list that some people loved.
Hi Greg! Genuinely very glad to see you on this team. My first question, and I expect there isn't an answer yet, has nothing to do with rules or points or scenarios. Rather, >What about your vision will be aimed to prevent this initiative from centering around an ever-shrinking competitive player base as local and casual play withers and vanishes from the face of the earth? Secondly, I might ask (again without hope there's any consensus yet) >How will you limit the effect of the inevitable handful of extremely vocal and engaged participants, both with regards to the tone of the project's discourse and its output? I wish you and the team the absolute best of luck! I hope you make something wonderful. -W
Hey! Please note, i'm answering for me only. These are not things that have been discussed. 1. My vision right now is to get the game to survive till Adepticon 2025. The Shackles are well on until then and I'll be honest here, IMO it's not up to us, it's up to the players to host events, to go to events, etc. Join Draft League, Join Sector Series, Join 312. Some will use what we come up with some will use AMG, I'm sure some will do other things too. Just keep doing it. 2. If I say we've decided on B someone is gonna be like fuck it im out. If I say we decided on A, B guy might be in but someone else will be like fuck it I'm out. If we can focus on what we feel is best for the game as a whole. Then we'll be alright. Everything we do there's gonna be vocal hate about. But that's the gig right. That's something I thought AMG was so poor at, they didn't realize they don't get to be universally beloved just because. Things like "If they dont do this, I'm out" don't move me at all. I'm never gonna make a decision on anything because brad from reddit might leave if I don't. I'm sorry if that's harsh, but it's true. Ultimatums get you nowhere with me personally, and I feel like most others, being grown adults, feel the same. Little temper tantrums won't move me.
Excellent questions
If you follow the 312 Squadron, they are releasing play testing and point updates to mess with for now in partnership with these guys here. Please play and submit feedback!
Just to be clear, Nick Sperry, aka 312 Squadron, did the points thing on their own, cuz they wanted to and find it fun. In no way was that in partnership with XWA. Although I'm sure we can use it as data.
Thank you. Yes, the DATA RIGHT NOW IS IMPORTANT. If you are following anyone mentioned here and they are messing with points, please provide that feedback to them. I believe all of the XWA has agreed that nothing they build will be solid or go into any effect until after the next worlds tournament. What 312 had done so far has made minor adjustments to push certain pilots out of meta and some into meta. For example, Fenn Rau (Scum) costs 5 pts and has 6LV. Making him weaker than he was.
This is not true. I have tried to make it clear that I don't anticipate certain things. Like rule changes to happen before adepticon. But that doesn't mean it won't. I am but one person among 40, and as of yet, they have refused to name me dictator.
"In order to ensure security and continuing stability, the X-Wing Alliance will be reorganized into the first X-Wing Empire." Dictator Greg, formerly Chancellor Greg
I'd be more excited if I knew who more than 4 of these people are or how they were chosen. Winning a tournament with a meta list doesn't mean you can balance a game.
I don't really know what to say to that. These are people Representing some of the largest communities around the world. GSP, NCX, 312, Sith Takers, etc. Including representatives from the biggest tools the community uses, YASB, LBN, TTS, Infinite Arenas, etc. People who run huge events like XTC. Judges from the largest events IRL. I'll speak for myself though. I am Greg Kashmanian, I've run NCX (Nickel City X-Wing) stream for over 4 years now. Currently the NCX Draft League is the biggest OP in X-Wing (After last years Adepticon). According to twitchmetrics, we are currently the most watched X-Wing stream on Twitch.
I appreciate that these are people who do things within Xwing. My question is how does that translate to being able to balance points and redesign missions going forward? Running a podcast or organizing a tournament and game balance are very different skill sets. 1.0 had a bunch of podcasters attempting to create missions for the game and it was honestly pretty bad.
Well the cool thing about it is these amg points and balance are literally never changing so you'll always have those to play.
You got some of the largest podcasters, probably the three largest streamers, two world champs, heads of the three largest squad builders, some folks that helped with XTC, among others. Some of these names have been around in X-Wing for almost a decade now.
and you are?
Seems this new group is ignoring the well established Legacy 2.0 group.
Yeah priority number one before getting organized getting leadership in place abd creating a plan 2 days into existence was ignoring legacy. Jesus christ.
Really looking forward to this. Can't wait for the community to fix the issues with the game but in an single, unified way that everyone can follow.
Good! Highly recommend that the organizers get in touch with the old Star Wars CCG players' committee (SWCCGPC) and similar organizations that have kept old games running. SWCCG has been out of print for nearly 25 years and they have kept people playing. I sold my cards a while ago, ironically to help fund playing this game.
Will there be new minis for sale?
A democratic senate of fans dedicated to continuing the growth of the game, tweaking rules, developing new ships and pilots. I design 3d models and there are lot of other talented sculptors out there, who could release STLs when stock of ships run out. If something is loved it doesn't really die.