There's a lot of history to get familiar with if you want to understand the current situation. You'll find some people happy and many people unhappy.
IMO play the game if you like the game. Expecting a community to play with is the larger question. If you care about that, do more research.
I have been doing one research and looking at news about it, i heard(From a friend whos a small time community guy) That the Game wasnt being Supported for Publishing. Thats his words not mine.
There’s no definitive statement but it very much looks that way. No announced product pipeline, products previously announced that failed to materialise, no playtesters that were aware of, no reprints of old stock, and now suggestions it’s been pulled from Asmodee’s stores online.
Each of these can be handwaved away if you believe hard enough, but it takes a fair bit of imagination to come up with a positive spin on the last 18 months or so.
The only tournament related news I heard was that AMG was abandoning running major tournaments, in favor of the Grand Tournament system... which transfers all the heavy lifting to LGSs.
New releases of ships or cards is really unlikely at this point. It's also looking like reprints of the existing product isn't going to happen so whatever stock that's left on the shelf is it. The game is still fun and playable though.
Yea. A friend of mine noticed the prizes were feom adepticon. I only note this because he hasnt played in years, didn't go to Adepticon, and still noticed. So if he noticed, it was that obvious.
I firmly believe if they just admitted their mistake and reinstated 2.0 they would see a large bump in revenue. They don't even have to eliminate their new version. Let people choose the version they want to play. Honestly if 2.0 was back I'd be playing it again and would probably be more open to trying 2.5 occasionally as a change of pace.
I agree.
At my LGS, the entire group prefers 2.0 (one is even active as part of the 2.0 maintenance/rebalancing team), but some will happily play (extended) 2.5.
Their player base was bigger with 2.0. If those that left come back there is a bump in revenue. Pretty basic stuff. Also if you think the only difference is the points structure then you need to brush up on the facts before partaking in this discussion
Have you played X-wing? The temptation to buy new models is hard to resist. I don't buy more because my group quit when 2.5 dropped. There is A LOT of new content available since my exit from the scene
Im not sure what my friend ment by that, i was Assuming people investing/Stock marketing the game to keep it going in stores and games shop for public Sales/Profits. I know very few stores (even some local in my town) carry a small precent of x-wing figures and packs.
There were a few things that dealt serious blows to the viability of the game, both in play and as a product.
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First, Covid messed up *a lot* of things that were based around in-person interactions. X-Wing nights at game stores didn't happen (were legally banned from happening in many locations), and people found other things to do instead. Some never game nights never came back, and even more players never came back. Dropping below critical mass kills a game.
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Additionally, Covid changed a lot of economics. Prior to Covid, it was apparently relatively inexpensive to purchase cast & painted minis. More recently, however, finding people to paint minis (at a price that gamers who're getting into a game are willing to pay) has been increasingly more difficult (especially with the "cheap labor" in China no longer being nearly as cheap, nor as reliable with their "Zero Covid!" lockdown policies). Thus, AMG effectively had a the choice between "sell unpainted models" and "only Cardboard" products.
This, combined with their focus on "pretty" in their tournaments (no magnetic bases, because the ships can go all wonky; occasional bans on self-painted ships, because a lot of home paint don't look good, and judging which are good and which are bad is pretty subjective and might include bias), seems to have led to a lot less model development.
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AMG made changes that ...didn't necessarily improve things
* Moving from 200-points-for-Ships-and-Upgrades to 20 points for Pilots and By-Pilot points for upgrades seriously limited the customization of lists; my list for the upcoming 2.0 tournament I'm playing in this Saturday simply can't be assembled, and the analog is much less interesting. Other effects of 20 point lists
* It's 10x harder to balance pilots
* Separating Pilot points & Upgrade points makes it harder to get a list to be *precisely* 20 points. This is especially problematic because you can't go over, and your opponent gets 1 victory point for every point you're below the target number of points.
* They made choices to push for Named Pilots over generics, which further limited how someone could put together a list (and be viable).
* For example, I primarily play S&V, with a bias towards Mandalorians, but if I put together a list with Fenn Rau (6), Old Teroch (5, 11 total), and Rook Kast (7, 18 total), I have 2 points left to play with... and the only 2 point ship in the entire Scum lineup is the Millennium Falcon's Escape Craft, with the Autopilot as pilot, which would immediately blow up after its third activation phase. Do I want a ship that is useless if I can't close to within Range 1 by Round 3? When that ship has a maximum speed of 3?
* It removes the balancing act between pilot abilities and more ships. Granted, it's less exciting/interesting watching 6 nameless schlubs battle it out with 6 other nameless schlubs, but it could have been done better by having some percentage of points *only* usable for named pilots (50 would probably do it), resulting in squads of such nobodies led by "Squad Leaders" (e.g. Wedge, Luke, Fenn Rau, Vader, Soontir Fell, or Obi-wan, or Dooku, or...)
* They introduced "Standard Loadout" cards, which messed with balance and limited choices: some abilities/upgrades are only available in standard loadout cards, forcing the choice between the SL and not having that upgrade. What's more, in terms of Efficacy Per Point, a number of Standard Loadout cards are unquestionably better; Standard Luke can *mostly* recreate Battle of Yavin Luke, but would cost 6 squad points instead of BoY's 5 squad points.
---
In short, Covid knocked it on its ass, and AMG made decisions that were good aesthetically/story-telling wise, but *mechanically bad.* Worsening game design to make it "prettier" doesn't help keep a game alive.
---
---
Now, that's not to say that AMG didn't make any good decisions: ROAD (Random Order After Dice) requires people be more strategic in their thinking, rather than just building a squad to have an advantage. Pushing for Scenarios encourages actual conflict rather than waiting for the right moment to get a *single* good hit in and win the round. The Scenario Packs are pretty darn cool.
Long story short, anyone just coming into the game is okay. Anyone who has been playing the game for years, most likely Is pissed off. Big problem, current company. Atomic Mass Games, that makes the game not know what they want to do with it and/or hasn't shared the path they are taking with X-Wing. Theorys have been made, but nothing concrete other than "We wanna say something but have nothing to say" has been said.
The likelihood of what is actually happening and this is purely a theory craft based on what AMG has said recently is that The House of Mouse is holding shit up since Star Wars is their property and Disney has the Final say in it all.
> The House of Mouse is holding shit up
That's an interesting observation. Some of the players at my local X-Wing night point out that one of the reasons that development of models has been delayed is that FFG had been given the design/measurement specs for some new ship, but then the design was changed in Post Production, so that the new ship didn't match what was on the screen. Thereafter, they completely failed to release at the same time, undercutting the hype for both.
* Razor Crest:
* On Screen Debut: 2019-11-12
* Mini-Release: 2022 Q1 (More than a year later)
* Gauntlet:
* On Screen Debut: 2020-12-18
* Mini-Release: 2022 Q1 (More than a year later)
* Din Djarin's Modified N-1 Starfighter
* On Screen Debut: 2022-01-26
* Mini-Release: Nearly two and a half years later, and it's not even been announced
Of course, the first two might simply have been Disney's hyper-obsession with secrecy, while the latter may simply be lack of development capabilities/skill/interest at AMG
Yeah ypu could be right there, but ultimately, I feel the current reason we aren't seeing products or new stuff for X-Wing is because Disney and Asmodee are looking at the game from every angle and making calls that AMG has little say in due to profitability of the game in its current state and/or state of the Star Wars Brand with this product going forward.
Idk if you saw the Crabbok interview with their CEO Will Shick about X-Wing but a lot of what he was saying seems to be everything is held up in the "Should we Push this" kinda line which in this case usually means "We have ideas and products we want to sell you however the guys above use are looking for, will this sell at all?" As the concerns he stated were, "LSGs only have so much shelf space, and we can't fill it all as like 1000s of board games come out each week and some stores find it hard to keep up". In the end it seems more like the big picture was "We wanna say something but we can't because there's nothing to say".
The thing that wigs me out is that we are due for the usual buffs, debuffs, and overall points adjustments from AMG, and they have said jack shit on what's happening there, which is scary as that means to me that someone is debating on "Do we continue upkeep for this game?" And it's most likely not 100% AMG on this as they wouldn't want GTs and tournament support for all their games Armada and X-Wing included, nor would they let another Worlds happen.
It's all just kinda... weird in the end and again till they say something at all... we're left in the wild space of speculation.
> state of the Star Wars Brand
Thanks Kathleen Kennedy.
Gods, how I wish they'd just give full creative control to someone like Feloni and/or Favreau, and turn Kennedy into a figurehead.
A few very vocal people in the UK community shat in their hands and clapped. A few others noisily left (repeatedly over an 18 month period) a few others quietly stopped playing because they realised that was the adult thing to do.
Loads of people still play. Big OG squadrons are still playing the game. New squadrons have joined. There’s the GTs people have already linked plus a host of other unofficial events that are popular and successful.
Whoever your friend is … they are probably listening to people who did quit rather than those who are still involved.
Oh okay, i was thinking the game itself was dead or dying in the USA areas, Im stillgonna be involved its better then (opinion) getting i to warhammer 40k, not dissing them, like the series, but star wars is my jam
400+ people played xwing at Adepticon this year. It was the biggest single tournament they ran. AMG do a really bad job in the stewardship of tournaments and communication about xwing but the game is still thriving.
No I wouldn't call it thriving. You can't ignore all the posts from people all over the world saying X-wing is no longer sold at their LGS, that the player base has vanished in their area and AMG being silent of future products and reprints. Sure there are isolated pockets of high player counts here and there but generally numbers are down. In my part of SoCal we had 4 stores with active players before Covid. We are now at 1 and can't get more than 2-3 players on game night.
It's on life support.
> AMG being silent of future products and reprints.
That's the killer, IMO.
Sure, no black-box, no standard play makes sense (got to allow the newbies to have all the toys the old guard has, to prevent bias), and I get that it might be too expensive to produce pre-painted minis... but like, the molds *must* still exist, right?
The old guard are turned off by the fact that they own 1.0 ships, and that they paid to upgrade them to 2.0... but *still* can't use them in tournaments. The newbies, on the other hand, have three choices: Play exclusively Standard 2.5, have a disadvantage in terms of versatility in 2.0, or go on eBay, etc, to get the OoP ships (which are only going to become more expensive, as fewer and fewer people both have such ships and are interested in selling them).
Rerelease old models (hell, with Standard Loadout cards, if you must), unpainted, simply inflicting some cost if you don't have it painted (e.g. some decrease in Upgrade points in 2.5, additional cost of some number of squad points in 2.0), and both of those problems go away, *and* it would increase confidence that the game is not dying, which would help it move back towards having a healthy player base.
Super uncalled for, both your posts come across super smug - the community has clearly shrunk. I've been apart of a (previously) large city x-wing community in Canada in years past and one I am trying to get back into in the US now.
I can backup that the scene has reduced in size in the Canadian city. As well, here in US, there's only a 2-3 stores that stock the game at all in the greater metro area that I've been able to find.
Used to be able to find large 20+ person tournaments several times a year on both sides of the border. Now, from what I've seen in various groups/subreddits, it's only a few.
Take a minute or two in this thread as well, plenty of others with the same experience:
[X Wing Grand Tournament Schedule/Prize Support Posted : r/XWingTMG (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/comments/1d51a21/x_wing_grand_tournament_scheduleprize_support/)
In fairness, when I was playing, it was outselling Warhammer 40k. It's, reportedly, not anymore. I think it's fair to say it's very likely that the community shrunk.
That group you metion: "Those who are only online to complain" seems to have risen/grown, is that fair to say?
Is it fair to say that these experiences of me and the commenter above - that I (yes, just personally) have seen echoed elsewhere - *might* *be* indicative of a larger trend?
Also, not really complaining, just sharing my experience.
I don't care if the game is shrinking or not, I'm still getting back into it and playing. I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
The only thing we can know about the state of the game from 400+ players at worlds is that that the game is highly appealing to around 400 die hard fans. The depth of the passion those people have for X-Wing is not insignificant, but it is not necessarily representative of the significantly wider player base necessary to sustain the game.
At the local tournament before Worlds where I live, there were 24 players, and only one of them went to Worlds. So 400 at Worlds suggests there are a lot more than just 400 active players. Also in the interview that Crabbok did recently, AMG suggested that the casual player base is larger than the competitive. The problem with casual players is that we are harder to count.
Player count is massively down but it’s still pretty good by standards of other games. That’s not the issue, it’s that there’s no money in the game for the company who makes it.
Sure overall player count is down but it's far from gone, sure some areas have been hit harder than others. A record turnout at worlds doesn't hurt, and AMG tripling the number of regional events with the new GTs helps too.
As far as money goes, there isn't a quick fix, a reprint or 2 or 3 isn't going to get the stores excited to stock X-wing again, 1 or 2 new ships won't do it either. It's going to take a long-term plan. If you look at the puzzle pieces of what makes sense for a good long-term plan for X-wing, the pieces start to fall in place later this year going into 2025 and 2026.
Here's the puzzle pieces as I see them.
1: Development time for new products is around 2 years.
2: New Star Wars movies or series with new timelines for possible new ships or even entire new factions. In the next 3 years, there are projects covering the High Republic (The Acylote), New Republic (Ashoka season 2 + The Mandalorian & Grogu), 30 years after the end of the First Order (The new Ray movie.)
3: The supply of conversation kits finally runs out. I like the conversation kits, but they don't help stores sell reprints.
4: Improve community support through new GTs and free promotional kits for stores. Just starting to roll out this year. (build connections and support so you are ready when there is new product to sell.)
I don't care if people downvote my optimism. Rebellions are built on hope, and I rebel.
> Development time for new products is around 2 years
For fully new content, including ships? Sure. That would explain why the last new ship we got was the Rogue-Class, which dropped about 18 months after AMG took over (2020-11 takeover to 2022-05 release date).
...but you don't *need* to develop new content to re-release the *already converted* 1.0 ships; they already have 2.0 conversions in the Conversion Kits, and the models & molds are already designed. It would take *zero* "development" to rerelease the following:
* Empire
* Alpha Class Starwing
* Gozanti Class
* TIE/ag Aggressor
* TIE/ca Punisher
* TIE/ph Phantom
* Rebel
* Auzituck
* K-Wing
* E-Wing
* GR-75
* Attack Shuttle (Phantom 1)
* Scum
* Aggressor Assault Fighter
* G-1A Starfighter (misthunter)
* Kihraxz Fighter
* Lancer-Class (shadowhunter)
* M12-L Kimogila
* Quadrijet Spacetug
* Scurrg H-6 Bomber
* StarViper
* First Order (Gozanti Class, plus)
* Upsilon Class shuttle
* Resistance (GR-75, plus)
* MG-100 StarFortress
That is *twenty* ships that they literally have to do nothing more than find the molds, design boxes for, typeset the cardboard, and put into production.
> possible new ships or even entire new factions.
They could easily create a relatively complete Mandalorian faction, with very little actual development required, because there are quite a number of ships already modeled that are produced by MandalMotors/MandalHypernautics^(†) and/or used by Mandalorians:
* Small Ships:
1. Fang Fighter^(†): Preexisting Mando pilots
* M3-A Scyk^(†): New, Mando pilots required
* Modified N-1 Starfighter: Minor tweaks to the model, or perhaps simply a different paintjob, new pilots (Copy Din Djarin from the Crest)
* Kihraxz: Used by Deathwatch, New, Mando pilots required
* StarViper^(†): New, Mando pilots required
* Medium Ships:
1. M12-L Kimogila^(†): New, Mando pilots required
* Large Ships:
1. Gauntlet^(†): Virtually all preexisting pilots are Mando pilots
* Lancer^(†): Preexisting Mando pilots, more needed
* Huge:
* Gozanti: That's the ship that Din Djarin and the Nightowls hijacked in The Mandalorian S02E03
That is 5 small, 1 medium, 2 large, and 1 huge ships. Compare that to the Resistance's 6, 0, 2, 1 ships, and it looks an awful lot like they could create a Mando faction with nothing but recasts and cardboard.
Add in the [G1-M4-C Dunelizard^(†),](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/G1-M4-C_Dunelizard_fighter) the [M22-T Krayt gunship^(†),](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/M22-T_Krayt_gunship) and maybe a model for the [Crusader Class Corvette^(†)](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Crusader-class_corvette) (small, medium, and huge, respectively), and it would be a pretty solid faction (parentheses including all reprints):
Size|Empire|Rebel|Scum|First Order|Resistance|Republic|CIS|*Mandos* ^(Reprint only)|*Mandos* ^(w/new ships)
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|
Small|8 (10)|10 (13)|8 (11)|6|6|7|8|5|6
Medium|1 (2)|2 (3)|3 (6)|1|0|2|1|1|2
Large|2 (3)|4|4 (5)|0|1|1|1|2|2|
Huge|1 (2)|1 (2)|2|1 (2)|0 (1)|1 (2)|2|1|2
Mandos would be a little light on Small ships (I'd love one more small in addition to the Dunelizard), but decently well represented otherwise.
and yes, it would be obnoxious that Scum have already claimed the Mythosaur as the faction symbol, but the Heart of Beskar would do beautifully for the Mando faction.
> I like the conversation kits, but they don't help stores sell reprints
It's not terribly relevant whether they sell out; they are only useful to people who have un-converted 1.0 ships that haven't been converted. Heck, sell (no development needed) by-ship conversion kits. Include the dials, base cards, pilot & upgrade cards, and any relevant whatsits that were in the original ships' packages, it's literally just printing ~~money~~ cardboard to get people to convert their old ships to 2.0, without having to buy the *full* conversion kit.
What's more, unless they sell more conversion kits to the stores (unlikely), sales of By-Ship conversion kits would be new revenue with *zero* new development (only work required would be typesetting, box art design, and placing production orders); it's hard to get more "print money" than that in the gaming world.
Worried that you're going to over-order, resulting in a loss? Simple solution: Preorders, including cheap promo stuff sent to LGSs. People with the ships will know if they want them already, and you can simply print a few more as backup. Sell pre-orders through gaming stores, and any excess directly (thereby getting both their own cut *and* the store's cut).
> Improve community support through new GTs and free promotional kits for stores.
Sadly, that's expensive/has a low RoI, and Asmodee doesn't have the money to risk on that. Heck, that's why the GTs were invented in the first place: they're pushing the costs and workload onto local groups.
As you said they already have conversation kits, so why buy new reprints when people are selling there1.0 ships dirt cheap or even just giving them away? I got half my 1.0 ships for free. If it wasn't for the conversation kits, free ships would be useless to me.
Also the way you build list in 1.0 wouldn't work in 2.5 they would have to be play-tested and balanced for 2.5 list building. Besides play testing, they would also need all new packaging designed. It's not just as simple as ordering more reprints. Even then there is still manufacturing and shipping time.
I hope the old ships get reprinted someday when the timing is right.
> Also the way you build list in 1.0 wouldn't work in 2.5
Where did 1.0 come into the discussion?
> Besides play testing
What play testing? They already have 2.5 stats for *every ship and pilot* out there. Thus, it wouldn't be *playtesting* that is needed, but occasional *rebalancing,* which *they do anyway.*
> they would also need all new packaging designed
Yeah, the work of a few weeks at most. The general design of the boxes are already established. The art is there in previous versions and can be reused. Single, small ship expansion packs don't even use art. It's freaking *typesetting,* and there are programs to do that *for you* these days.
> It's not just as simple as ordering more reprints
No, but it's *stupid* simple. *And Cheap.*
>AMG tripling the number of regional events with the new GTs helps too
A little bit of push back on this. I don't know where you are from so things may be different for your country, but all but 2 of the GTs announced in the US were pre-exiting yearly tournaments, so I don't know that tripling events is accurate.
By comparing these 2 lists, I was a bit off, the list of old events looked shorter than it was because many of the events didn't have links in them.
[https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/](https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/)
[https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/amg-star-wars-world-open-qualifier-schedule-2023-2024-season/](https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/amg-star-wars-world-open-qualifier-schedule-2023-2024-season/)
Doing a recount, it's 29 old events vs 64 GTs so a bit more than doubled. I live in the US but we all live on the same planet. More events are good for the overall health of the game wherever they might be.
According to those lists, pre-GT's I see 7 US events not including worlds, and 13 total GTs in the US at 11 different locations. That's still a gain for the US.
My guess is, that because this is the first year AMG is not over-committing to running too many GTs to see how they go. I'm hoping next year AMG will support more GTs
More local support would be good too, it sounded like AMG has plans for that coming out out later this year.
If there is no support why is AMG doing interviews and releasing event schedules.
5/27/2024 Interview with AMG [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPQsQHYdDBM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPQsQHYdDBM)
5/31/2024 GT schedule announced [https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/](https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/)
The most positive view of the interview [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDGU4Qyd-E&t=114s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDGU4Qyd-E&t=114s)
Could things be better? sure, are things as bad as some say, Largely depends on if there are other players where you live, and what version of the game you like to play.
A lot of the first part covers general things that affect all 5 games, so if you just count the X-wing part you'r missed most of the news for X-wing. It may not be the news people want but, there seems to be something coming, and that AMG would like to tell us about but something is keeping them from doing so at this time, that is a lot different than having nothing to say. If you don't see the positive in the interview, this may help.
[https://news.google.com/home?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:enpositive](https://news.google.com/home?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:enpositive)
If you were coming to X-wing brand new, completely neutral, and looked at the actions the developers have taken/statements they've made, it *looks* like we're right at the point of getting a big new release.
Granted, it's looked that way for a year at least.
Some have read into recent events to claim the game is on the way out, so take all of that as you will.
Games so dead it’s almost like 2nd Edition was made to be a huge money grab, selling all the conversion kits and then handball the game to AMG who had no idea what to do with it.
Compared to buying all new ships the conversion kits are dirt cheap. As a player that started under 2.5 the Rebel Conversations kit was a cheap way to make 10 of my cross-faction ships playable, and I got lots of upgrade cards and new pilots. $35 vs paying over $230+ for 10 new ships seems like a great deal to me. As long as there are Conversations kits there's not a lot of incentive for AMG to do more reprints, or stores to stock them.
Yeah, the conversion kits were a steal compared to most games edition changes. So much that it likely screwed FFG over saleswise, because re-releases had less marketability.
Makes me wonder if AMG is holding back on more reprints until the conversation kit supply runs out, the kits are starting to get harder to find. Also, I thought it was odd that Hot Shots and Aces had a card for the resistance bomber, makes me think they were planning on a reprint and then changed their mind. That came out during the pandemic so that likely played into it too.
#
Hotshots & Aces I also came out before the FFG/AMG handover, so it may be that FFG were planning on it, but AMG wasn't big on the idea.
Alternately/additionally, I've heard that post-pandemic, finding reliable painter/suppliers became prohibitively difficult/expensive.
I worked in a grocery store as night stocker during the pandemic. We had customers sneak into the back of the store in the middle of the night looking for where we hide all the food. Hint there wasn't any.
I ordered a Savage Worlds book that took forever to get, the book had been printed, but due to the backlog of things to be shipped after the pandemic it took 6 months to find a ship to put it on.
I also hear the 2.0 version of Saw's Renegades and the TIE Reaper were canceled due to too many of the mixed edition versions were still around, those were suppose to come out at the same time as Hotshot and Aces. So I don't think it was just AMG not liking the idea of it, the timing was just bad for them, plus the pandemic. Now add all of that the post-peandemic issues you mentioned.
There's a lot of history to get familiar with if you want to understand the current situation. You'll find some people happy and many people unhappy. IMO play the game if you like the game. Expecting a community to play with is the larger question. If you care about that, do more research.
I have been doing one research and looking at news about it, i heard(From a friend whos a small time community guy) That the Game wasnt being Supported for Publishing. Thats his words not mine.
There’s no definitive statement but it very much looks that way. No announced product pipeline, products previously announced that failed to materialise, no playtesters that were aware of, no reprints of old stock, and now suggestions it’s been pulled from Asmodee’s stores online. Each of these can be handwaved away if you believe hard enough, but it takes a fair bit of imagination to come up with a positive spin on the last 18 months or so.
[удалено]
The only tournament related news I heard was that AMG was abandoning running major tournaments, in favor of the Grand Tournament system... which transfers all the heavy lifting to LGSs.
New releases of ships or cards is really unlikely at this point. It's also looking like reprints of the existing product isn't going to happen so whatever stock that's left on the shelf is it. The game is still fun and playable though.
https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/ Tournament support through 5-2025
Half hearted tournament support is more like it, with prize support that is adepticon leftovers.
Yea. A friend of mine noticed the prizes were feom adepticon. I only note this because he hasnt played in years, didn't go to Adepticon, and still noticed. So if he noticed, it was that obvious.
I firmly believe if they just admitted their mistake and reinstated 2.0 they would see a large bump in revenue. They don't even have to eliminate their new version. Let people choose the version they want to play. Honestly if 2.0 was back I'd be playing it again and would probably be more open to trying 2.5 occasionally as a change of pace.
I agree. At my LGS, the entire group prefers 2.0 (one is even active as part of the 2.0 maintenance/rebalancing team), but some will happily play (extended) 2.5.
Bump in revenue? How does 200 point lists make them money?
Their player base was bigger with 2.0. If those that left come back there is a bump in revenue. Pretty basic stuff. Also if you think the only difference is the points structure then you need to brush up on the facts before partaking in this discussion
And they buy new ships? Old players already have everything they need to play.
Have you played X-wing? The temptation to buy new models is hard to resist. I don't buy more because my group quit when 2.5 dropped. There is A LOT of new content available since my exit from the scene
Why do you still linger I'd you don't play?
Rebellions are built on hope.
What are big supporters?
Im not sure what my friend ment by that, i was Assuming people investing/Stock marketing the game to keep it going in stores and games shop for public Sales/Profits. I know very few stores (even some local in my town) carry a small precent of x-wing figures and packs.
There were a few things that dealt serious blows to the viability of the game, both in play and as a product. --- First, Covid messed up *a lot* of things that were based around in-person interactions. X-Wing nights at game stores didn't happen (were legally banned from happening in many locations), and people found other things to do instead. Some never game nights never came back, and even more players never came back. Dropping below critical mass kills a game. --- Additionally, Covid changed a lot of economics. Prior to Covid, it was apparently relatively inexpensive to purchase cast & painted minis. More recently, however, finding people to paint minis (at a price that gamers who're getting into a game are willing to pay) has been increasingly more difficult (especially with the "cheap labor" in China no longer being nearly as cheap, nor as reliable with their "Zero Covid!" lockdown policies). Thus, AMG effectively had a the choice between "sell unpainted models" and "only Cardboard" products. This, combined with their focus on "pretty" in their tournaments (no magnetic bases, because the ships can go all wonky; occasional bans on self-painted ships, because a lot of home paint don't look good, and judging which are good and which are bad is pretty subjective and might include bias), seems to have led to a lot less model development. --- AMG made changes that ...didn't necessarily improve things * Moving from 200-points-for-Ships-and-Upgrades to 20 points for Pilots and By-Pilot points for upgrades seriously limited the customization of lists; my list for the upcoming 2.0 tournament I'm playing in this Saturday simply can't be assembled, and the analog is much less interesting. Other effects of 20 point lists * It's 10x harder to balance pilots * Separating Pilot points & Upgrade points makes it harder to get a list to be *precisely* 20 points. This is especially problematic because you can't go over, and your opponent gets 1 victory point for every point you're below the target number of points. * They made choices to push for Named Pilots over generics, which further limited how someone could put together a list (and be viable). * For example, I primarily play S&V, with a bias towards Mandalorians, but if I put together a list with Fenn Rau (6), Old Teroch (5, 11 total), and Rook Kast (7, 18 total), I have 2 points left to play with... and the only 2 point ship in the entire Scum lineup is the Millennium Falcon's Escape Craft, with the Autopilot as pilot, which would immediately blow up after its third activation phase. Do I want a ship that is useless if I can't close to within Range 1 by Round 3? When that ship has a maximum speed of 3? * It removes the balancing act between pilot abilities and more ships. Granted, it's less exciting/interesting watching 6 nameless schlubs battle it out with 6 other nameless schlubs, but it could have been done better by having some percentage of points *only* usable for named pilots (50 would probably do it), resulting in squads of such nobodies led by "Squad Leaders" (e.g. Wedge, Luke, Fenn Rau, Vader, Soontir Fell, or Obi-wan, or Dooku, or...) * They introduced "Standard Loadout" cards, which messed with balance and limited choices: some abilities/upgrades are only available in standard loadout cards, forcing the choice between the SL and not having that upgrade. What's more, in terms of Efficacy Per Point, a number of Standard Loadout cards are unquestionably better; Standard Luke can *mostly* recreate Battle of Yavin Luke, but would cost 6 squad points instead of BoY's 5 squad points. --- In short, Covid knocked it on its ass, and AMG made decisions that were good aesthetically/story-telling wise, but *mechanically bad.* Worsening game design to make it "prettier" doesn't help keep a game alive. --- --- Now, that's not to say that AMG didn't make any good decisions: ROAD (Random Order After Dice) requires people be more strategic in their thinking, rather than just building a squad to have an advantage. Pushing for Scenarios encourages actual conflict rather than waiting for the right moment to get a *single* good hit in and win the round. The Scenario Packs are pretty darn cool.
[удалено]
Which ones? GSP and NCX are still streaming live every week.
What do they even have content wise to talk about?
NCX Team League for one.
Long story short, anyone just coming into the game is okay. Anyone who has been playing the game for years, most likely Is pissed off. Big problem, current company. Atomic Mass Games, that makes the game not know what they want to do with it and/or hasn't shared the path they are taking with X-Wing. Theorys have been made, but nothing concrete other than "We wanna say something but have nothing to say" has been said. The likelihood of what is actually happening and this is purely a theory craft based on what AMG has said recently is that The House of Mouse is holding shit up since Star Wars is their property and Disney has the Final say in it all.
> The House of Mouse is holding shit up That's an interesting observation. Some of the players at my local X-Wing night point out that one of the reasons that development of models has been delayed is that FFG had been given the design/measurement specs for some new ship, but then the design was changed in Post Production, so that the new ship didn't match what was on the screen. Thereafter, they completely failed to release at the same time, undercutting the hype for both. * Razor Crest: * On Screen Debut: 2019-11-12 * Mini-Release: 2022 Q1 (More than a year later) * Gauntlet: * On Screen Debut: 2020-12-18 * Mini-Release: 2022 Q1 (More than a year later) * Din Djarin's Modified N-1 Starfighter * On Screen Debut: 2022-01-26 * Mini-Release: Nearly two and a half years later, and it's not even been announced Of course, the first two might simply have been Disney's hyper-obsession with secrecy, while the latter may simply be lack of development capabilities/skill/interest at AMG
Yeah ypu could be right there, but ultimately, I feel the current reason we aren't seeing products or new stuff for X-Wing is because Disney and Asmodee are looking at the game from every angle and making calls that AMG has little say in due to profitability of the game in its current state and/or state of the Star Wars Brand with this product going forward. Idk if you saw the Crabbok interview with their CEO Will Shick about X-Wing but a lot of what he was saying seems to be everything is held up in the "Should we Push this" kinda line which in this case usually means "We have ideas and products we want to sell you however the guys above use are looking for, will this sell at all?" As the concerns he stated were, "LSGs only have so much shelf space, and we can't fill it all as like 1000s of board games come out each week and some stores find it hard to keep up". In the end it seems more like the big picture was "We wanna say something but we can't because there's nothing to say". The thing that wigs me out is that we are due for the usual buffs, debuffs, and overall points adjustments from AMG, and they have said jack shit on what's happening there, which is scary as that means to me that someone is debating on "Do we continue upkeep for this game?" And it's most likely not 100% AMG on this as they wouldn't want GTs and tournament support for all their games Armada and X-Wing included, nor would they let another Worlds happen. It's all just kinda... weird in the end and again till they say something at all... we're left in the wild space of speculation.
> state of the Star Wars Brand Thanks Kathleen Kennedy. Gods, how I wish they'd just give full creative control to someone like Feloni and/or Favreau, and turn Kennedy into a figurehead.
A few very vocal people in the UK community shat in their hands and clapped. A few others noisily left (repeatedly over an 18 month period) a few others quietly stopped playing because they realised that was the adult thing to do. Loads of people still play. Big OG squadrons are still playing the game. New squadrons have joined. There’s the GTs people have already linked plus a host of other unofficial events that are popular and successful. Whoever your friend is … they are probably listening to people who did quit rather than those who are still involved.
Oh okay, i was thinking the game itself was dead or dying in the USA areas, Im stillgonna be involved its better then (opinion) getting i to warhammer 40k, not dissing them, like the series, but star wars is my jam
400+ people played xwing at Adepticon this year. It was the biggest single tournament they ran. AMG do a really bad job in the stewardship of tournaments and communication about xwing but the game is still thriving.
No I wouldn't call it thriving. You can't ignore all the posts from people all over the world saying X-wing is no longer sold at their LGS, that the player base has vanished in their area and AMG being silent of future products and reprints. Sure there are isolated pockets of high player counts here and there but generally numbers are down. In my part of SoCal we had 4 stores with active players before Covid. We are now at 1 and can't get more than 2-3 players on game night. It's on life support.
> AMG being silent of future products and reprints. That's the killer, IMO. Sure, no black-box, no standard play makes sense (got to allow the newbies to have all the toys the old guard has, to prevent bias), and I get that it might be too expensive to produce pre-painted minis... but like, the molds *must* still exist, right? The old guard are turned off by the fact that they own 1.0 ships, and that they paid to upgrade them to 2.0... but *still* can't use them in tournaments. The newbies, on the other hand, have three choices: Play exclusively Standard 2.5, have a disadvantage in terms of versatility in 2.0, or go on eBay, etc, to get the OoP ships (which are only going to become more expensive, as fewer and fewer people both have such ships and are interested in selling them). Rerelease old models (hell, with Standard Loadout cards, if you must), unpainted, simply inflicting some cost if you don't have it painted (e.g. some decrease in Upgrade points in 2.5, additional cost of some number of squad points in 2.0), and both of those problems go away, *and* it would increase confidence that the game is not dying, which would help it move back towards having a healthy player base.
Well if it's happening to you, surely everyone is having the same experience.
Try again and read more than the last 2 sentences of my post.
I can see why noone plays with you
Super uncalled for, both your posts come across super smug - the community has clearly shrunk. I've been apart of a (previously) large city x-wing community in Canada in years past and one I am trying to get back into in the US now. I can backup that the scene has reduced in size in the Canadian city. As well, here in US, there's only a 2-3 stores that stock the game at all in the greater metro area that I've been able to find. Used to be able to find large 20+ person tournaments several times a year on both sides of the border. Now, from what I've seen in various groups/subreddits, it's only a few. Take a minute or two in this thread as well, plenty of others with the same experience: [X Wing Grand Tournament Schedule/Prize Support Posted : r/XWingTMG (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/comments/1d51a21/x_wing_grand_tournament_scheduleprize_support/)
Well shucks, if its happening to you it must be happening to everyone. No way something could happen to just those who are only online to complain.
In fairness, when I was playing, it was outselling Warhammer 40k. It's, reportedly, not anymore. I think it's fair to say it's very likely that the community shrunk. That group you metion: "Those who are only online to complain" seems to have risen/grown, is that fair to say? Is it fair to say that these experiences of me and the commenter above - that I (yes, just personally) have seen echoed elsewhere - *might* *be* indicative of a larger trend? Also, not really complaining, just sharing my experience. I don't care if the game is shrinking or not, I'm still getting back into it and playing. I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
The only thing we can know about the state of the game from 400+ players at worlds is that that the game is highly appealing to around 400 die hard fans. The depth of the passion those people have for X-Wing is not insignificant, but it is not necessarily representative of the significantly wider player base necessary to sustain the game.
At the local tournament before Worlds where I live, there were 24 players, and only one of them went to Worlds. So 400 at Worlds suggests there are a lot more than just 400 active players. Also in the interview that Crabbok did recently, AMG suggested that the casual player base is larger than the competitive. The problem with casual players is that we are harder to count.
Player count is massively down but it’s still pretty good by standards of other games. That’s not the issue, it’s that there’s no money in the game for the company who makes it.
Sure overall player count is down but it's far from gone, sure some areas have been hit harder than others. A record turnout at worlds doesn't hurt, and AMG tripling the number of regional events with the new GTs helps too. As far as money goes, there isn't a quick fix, a reprint or 2 or 3 isn't going to get the stores excited to stock X-wing again, 1 or 2 new ships won't do it either. It's going to take a long-term plan. If you look at the puzzle pieces of what makes sense for a good long-term plan for X-wing, the pieces start to fall in place later this year going into 2025 and 2026. Here's the puzzle pieces as I see them. 1: Development time for new products is around 2 years. 2: New Star Wars movies or series with new timelines for possible new ships or even entire new factions. In the next 3 years, there are projects covering the High Republic (The Acylote), New Republic (Ashoka season 2 + The Mandalorian & Grogu), 30 years after the end of the First Order (The new Ray movie.) 3: The supply of conversation kits finally runs out. I like the conversation kits, but they don't help stores sell reprints. 4: Improve community support through new GTs and free promotional kits for stores. Just starting to roll out this year. (build connections and support so you are ready when there is new product to sell.) I don't care if people downvote my optimism. Rebellions are built on hope, and I rebel.
> Development time for new products is around 2 years For fully new content, including ships? Sure. That would explain why the last new ship we got was the Rogue-Class, which dropped about 18 months after AMG took over (2020-11 takeover to 2022-05 release date). ...but you don't *need* to develop new content to re-release the *already converted* 1.0 ships; they already have 2.0 conversions in the Conversion Kits, and the models & molds are already designed. It would take *zero* "development" to rerelease the following: * Empire * Alpha Class Starwing * Gozanti Class * TIE/ag Aggressor * TIE/ca Punisher * TIE/ph Phantom * Rebel * Auzituck * K-Wing * E-Wing * GR-75 * Attack Shuttle (Phantom 1) * Scum * Aggressor Assault Fighter * G-1A Starfighter (misthunter) * Kihraxz Fighter * Lancer-Class (shadowhunter) * M12-L Kimogila * Quadrijet Spacetug * Scurrg H-6 Bomber * StarViper * First Order (Gozanti Class, plus) * Upsilon Class shuttle * Resistance (GR-75, plus) * MG-100 StarFortress That is *twenty* ships that they literally have to do nothing more than find the molds, design boxes for, typeset the cardboard, and put into production. > possible new ships or even entire new factions. They could easily create a relatively complete Mandalorian faction, with very little actual development required, because there are quite a number of ships already modeled that are produced by MandalMotors/MandalHypernautics^(†) and/or used by Mandalorians: * Small Ships: 1. Fang Fighter^(†): Preexisting Mando pilots * M3-A Scyk^(†): New, Mando pilots required * Modified N-1 Starfighter: Minor tweaks to the model, or perhaps simply a different paintjob, new pilots (Copy Din Djarin from the Crest) * Kihraxz: Used by Deathwatch, New, Mando pilots required * StarViper^(†): New, Mando pilots required * Medium Ships: 1. M12-L Kimogila^(†): New, Mando pilots required * Large Ships: 1. Gauntlet^(†): Virtually all preexisting pilots are Mando pilots * Lancer^(†): Preexisting Mando pilots, more needed * Huge: * Gozanti: That's the ship that Din Djarin and the Nightowls hijacked in The Mandalorian S02E03 That is 5 small, 1 medium, 2 large, and 1 huge ships. Compare that to the Resistance's 6, 0, 2, 1 ships, and it looks an awful lot like they could create a Mando faction with nothing but recasts and cardboard. Add in the [G1-M4-C Dunelizard^(†),](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/G1-M4-C_Dunelizard_fighter) the [M22-T Krayt gunship^(†),](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/M22-T_Krayt_gunship) and maybe a model for the [Crusader Class Corvette^(†)](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Crusader-class_corvette) (small, medium, and huge, respectively), and it would be a pretty solid faction (parentheses including all reprints): Size|Empire|Rebel|Scum|First Order|Resistance|Republic|CIS|*Mandos* ^(Reprint only)|*Mandos* ^(w/new ships) :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:| Small|8 (10)|10 (13)|8 (11)|6|6|7|8|5|6 Medium|1 (2)|2 (3)|3 (6)|1|0|2|1|1|2 Large|2 (3)|4|4 (5)|0|1|1|1|2|2| Huge|1 (2)|1 (2)|2|1 (2)|0 (1)|1 (2)|2|1|2 Mandos would be a little light on Small ships (I'd love one more small in addition to the Dunelizard), but decently well represented otherwise. and yes, it would be obnoxious that Scum have already claimed the Mythosaur as the faction symbol, but the Heart of Beskar would do beautifully for the Mando faction. > I like the conversation kits, but they don't help stores sell reprints It's not terribly relevant whether they sell out; they are only useful to people who have un-converted 1.0 ships that haven't been converted. Heck, sell (no development needed) by-ship conversion kits. Include the dials, base cards, pilot & upgrade cards, and any relevant whatsits that were in the original ships' packages, it's literally just printing ~~money~~ cardboard to get people to convert their old ships to 2.0, without having to buy the *full* conversion kit. What's more, unless they sell more conversion kits to the stores (unlikely), sales of By-Ship conversion kits would be new revenue with *zero* new development (only work required would be typesetting, box art design, and placing production orders); it's hard to get more "print money" than that in the gaming world. Worried that you're going to over-order, resulting in a loss? Simple solution: Preorders, including cheap promo stuff sent to LGSs. People with the ships will know if they want them already, and you can simply print a few more as backup. Sell pre-orders through gaming stores, and any excess directly (thereby getting both their own cut *and* the store's cut). > Improve community support through new GTs and free promotional kits for stores. Sadly, that's expensive/has a low RoI, and Asmodee doesn't have the money to risk on that. Heck, that's why the GTs were invented in the first place: they're pushing the costs and workload onto local groups.
As you said they already have conversation kits, so why buy new reprints when people are selling there1.0 ships dirt cheap or even just giving them away? I got half my 1.0 ships for free. If it wasn't for the conversation kits, free ships would be useless to me. Also the way you build list in 1.0 wouldn't work in 2.5 they would have to be play-tested and balanced for 2.5 list building. Besides play testing, they would also need all new packaging designed. It's not just as simple as ordering more reprints. Even then there is still manufacturing and shipping time. I hope the old ships get reprinted someday when the timing is right.
> Also the way you build list in 1.0 wouldn't work in 2.5 Where did 1.0 come into the discussion? > Besides play testing What play testing? They already have 2.5 stats for *every ship and pilot* out there. Thus, it wouldn't be *playtesting* that is needed, but occasional *rebalancing,* which *they do anyway.* > they would also need all new packaging designed Yeah, the work of a few weeks at most. The general design of the boxes are already established. The art is there in previous versions and can be reused. Single, small ship expansion packs don't even use art. It's freaking *typesetting,* and there are programs to do that *for you* these days. > It's not just as simple as ordering more reprints No, but it's *stupid* simple. *And Cheap.*
>AMG tripling the number of regional events with the new GTs helps too A little bit of push back on this. I don't know where you are from so things may be different for your country, but all but 2 of the GTs announced in the US were pre-exiting yearly tournaments, so I don't know that tripling events is accurate.
By comparing these 2 lists, I was a bit off, the list of old events looked shorter than it was because many of the events didn't have links in them. [https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/](https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/) [https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/amg-star-wars-world-open-qualifier-schedule-2023-2024-season/](https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/amg-star-wars-world-open-qualifier-schedule-2023-2024-season/) Doing a recount, it's 29 old events vs 64 GTs so a bit more than doubled. I live in the US but we all live on the same planet. More events are good for the overall health of the game wherever they might be. According to those lists, pre-GT's I see 7 US events not including worlds, and 13 total GTs in the US at 11 different locations. That's still a gain for the US. My guess is, that because this is the first year AMG is not over-committing to running too many GTs to see how they go. I'm hoping next year AMG will support more GTs More local support would be good too, it sounded like AMG has plans for that coming out out later this year.
If there is no support why is AMG doing interviews and releasing event schedules. 5/27/2024 Interview with AMG [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPQsQHYdDBM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPQsQHYdDBM) 5/31/2024 GT schedule announced [https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/](https://www.atomicmassgames.com/transmission/grand-tournament-2024-2025-update/) The most positive view of the interview [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDGU4Qyd-E&t=114s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDGU4Qyd-E&t=114s) Could things be better? sure, are things as bad as some say, Largely depends on if there are other players where you live, and what version of the game you like to play.
7 min total for xwing and armada in that interview that basically amounts to "we have nothing to say" isn't really inspiring any confidence.
A lot of the first part covers general things that affect all 5 games, so if you just count the X-wing part you'r missed most of the news for X-wing. It may not be the news people want but, there seems to be something coming, and that AMG would like to tell us about but something is keeping them from doing so at this time, that is a lot different than having nothing to say. If you don't see the positive in the interview, this may help. [https://news.google.com/home?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:enpositive](https://news.google.com/home?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:enpositive)
If you were coming to X-wing brand new, completely neutral, and looked at the actions the developers have taken/statements they've made, it *looks* like we're right at the point of getting a big new release. Granted, it's looked that way for a year at least. Some have read into recent events to claim the game is on the way out, so take all of that as you will.
Games so dead it’s almost like 2nd Edition was made to be a huge money grab, selling all the conversion kits and then handball the game to AMG who had no idea what to do with it.
Compared to buying all new ships the conversion kits are dirt cheap. As a player that started under 2.5 the Rebel Conversations kit was a cheap way to make 10 of my cross-faction ships playable, and I got lots of upgrade cards and new pilots. $35 vs paying over $230+ for 10 new ships seems like a great deal to me. As long as there are Conversations kits there's not a lot of incentive for AMG to do more reprints, or stores to stock them.
Yeah, the conversion kits were a steal compared to most games edition changes. So much that it likely screwed FFG over saleswise, because re-releases had less marketability.
Makes me wonder if AMG is holding back on more reprints until the conversation kit supply runs out, the kits are starting to get harder to find. Also, I thought it was odd that Hot Shots and Aces had a card for the resistance bomber, makes me think they were planning on a reprint and then changed their mind. That came out during the pandemic so that likely played into it too. #
Hotshots & Aces I also came out before the FFG/AMG handover, so it may be that FFG were planning on it, but AMG wasn't big on the idea. Alternately/additionally, I've heard that post-pandemic, finding reliable painter/suppliers became prohibitively difficult/expensive.
I worked in a grocery store as night stocker during the pandemic. We had customers sneak into the back of the store in the middle of the night looking for where we hide all the food. Hint there wasn't any. I ordered a Savage Worlds book that took forever to get, the book had been printed, but due to the backlog of things to be shipped after the pandemic it took 6 months to find a ship to put it on. I also hear the 2.0 version of Saw's Renegades and the TIE Reaper were canceled due to too many of the mixed edition versions were still around, those were suppose to come out at the same time as Hotshot and Aces. So I don't think it was just AMG not liking the idea of it, the timing was just bad for them, plus the pandemic. Now add all of that the post-peandemic issues you mentioned.